July 19, 2025 • 10 mins
This week on the Sunday Panel, partner at Freebairn and Hehir Laywers, Liam Hehir and journalist, TV producer and commentator, Irene Gardiner, joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
This week, we saw the Government end open-plan classrooms in schools. And today, we hear there are significant concerns about NCEA and changes are being mulled over. Both issues that have been repeatedly talked about - how much pressure is there on the Government to get this right? Especially with any changes to NCEA?
The UK has lowered its voting age to 16 - what do we make of this? Do we need to follow suit?
Would we buy a movie ticket a year ahead of its release?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And it is time for the panel. And joining me
this morning a partner at Freebahn and Heir Lawyers, Liam Here,
Good morning, Liam, gid A, good thank you. We're also
joined by journalist, TV producer and commentator Irene Gardner.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Hi, Irene, Hi, Thank you, sco Kyoda.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you both for being with us. So this week
we saw the government end open playing classrooms in schools. Oh,
little clap coming from me for that. And today we
hear that there are significant concerns around NCEEA and changes
are being mulled over. In fact, we've been told that
all options are on the table. Both issues have been
(00:50):
I think spoken about quite a lot. So Liam, how
much pressure is there on the government to get this right?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I'm not sure how much pressure there is, but there
should be pressure to get it right because the currencystem
are so confusing. I'm lucky, right if I was the
last year to do school see some of the before
NCA came in. And funnally enough, I was crying through
some old papers yesterday the other day and I found
my school see six certificate and bursary.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Mark.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Well done were they were? They as impressive as you remember.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
I could have done better in some of them, but
you know it was you know, I could show someone that,
like they could see my proficiency. Whereas as an employee
now the MCA is just just meaningless. I've got an
idea of what it even means. And my younger brothers
and sisters said the same thing. It changed from year
to year. They continue to tinker with it and change
(01:45):
it all the time. It's just not a it's not
a useful standard. It's not a useful standard, and so
they should be under pressure to actually put in place
a durable system that actually tells people what people can
account and tell what they could and couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
But for some people them it is a perfectly good
standard because it gets them into med school, it gets
them into law school, it gets them into engineering. They're
getting to where they need to go, and the next
it becomes pretty much irrelevant.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Well, yes, apart from the fact that it pushes out
the sort of the gatekeeping. It pushes out the drafting
gate of what's proficient from in high school qualification through
to actually having a bachelor's degree. So in a lot
of ways, having a bachelor's degree is the function that
actually the college education school sief it's certificate and birthry
(02:30):
used to actually provide. So you can't tell from what
they did at school anymore, so you have to go
up the next thing, the university, And that's part of
what feeds into this huge swelling of university degrees that
don't always end up in jobs that need university degrees.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it's interesting, Iran. I mean, I've got one kid
who's just finished school and is a university and will
probably never think of NCAA again, and my daughter who
is in her final year, and so we've gone through it,
and I think there's a couple of things. One, it is,
as Liam said, it's impossible to understand. It needs to
be simplified and communicated better. But I wonder whether it's
about and I think that we need to be really
(03:06):
focus down on some core academic subjects. But on top
of that, I think the most important thing isn't necessarily
fixing the structure of it, is making sure that it's
been delivered really well. I think it's about putting our
investment into the people who deliver the system. We need
good teachers. My kids will say to you, doesn't matter
how it's structure, it doesn't matter what it is. You
(03:26):
just need a good teacher. That is the most important thing.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I tend to agree with that, And I'm always nervous
when politicians talk about, you know, something can't be fixed,
it needs to be completely redowne. Yes, that may well
be sometimes true, But I tend to be more of
a sort of pragmatic incrementalist, where look at what's actually working,
(03:50):
look at what's not, and fix it and make it work,
because just throwing everything out and starting again can be
just so disruptive. And I don't think our education system
needs any more disruption. I think you're right. I think
a lot of emphasis on the right people get sensible
(04:11):
teachers involved in whatever tweaks we're making. And this is
also this is my real hobby horse at the moment.
There are quite a few social things that absolutely need
to be cross party for our future so that they
cannot be a political football, and this is one of them.
If this is changing, being fixed, whatever, we're then sticking
(04:31):
with that and enhancing it. We're not changing it every
time we change government.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Liam I'm really interested to get your opinion on this
next topic I want to talk about it, and this
is that the UK is luring it's voting age to sixteen.
And it's something which has been discussed here in New
Zealand quite a lot. And I basically ask sixteen year olds.
They are the ones that have informed me as to
what they think whether we should reduce the age, and
they all look at me and go, hell, no, what
(05:00):
do you think? Do you think we should be being
progressive and lwering our voting age?
Speaker 4 (05:05):
If you bo or lamb here voting age, you will
find Eving introduced on this topic dozens and dozens of times.
And the reason is is because the zeal media struggles
to find pundits who will go on the news and
say that you shouldn't rope lower the voting age to sixteen,
that we should keep it as voting being something for adults,
not for older children. And that's amazing because all the polling,
(05:28):
without exception, all of it shows a massive, massive majority
against lowering the voting age in New Zealand, not like
sixty percent against seventy eighty eighty five percent against lowering
the voting age it's just so far against common sense.
You know, it's voting is for most people, it's considered
(05:49):
a part of being an adult, not part of being
a child. Now, there's always going to be accusations that
the reason why some parties want to lower the voting
age and why some people don't, it's because you know,
there's a political you know, the idea is that young
people are probably more to the left. I'm not so
concerned about that. Actually, you know, young people will politics
will always calibrate. One of the reasons I'd trump one
(06:12):
was because young people swung behind them in the last selection.
But to me, I believe in keeping. I believe that
there is a line between childhood and adulthood, and that
part of being adult is to take responsibility for those
things and not to put them on to children. That
children should enjoy not caring about politics, not being into
(06:32):
politics for as long as they can, because you have
your whole life to worry about politics. You only have
eighteen years to have a sort of have your childhood.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I mean, I mean, I tend to agree with Liam,
but for slightly different reasons. My whole thing is my
kids will tell me that maybe one out of ten
sixteen year olds is really engaged in politics, understands it
would actually contribute to voting. The rest of them aren't
(07:02):
even thinking about it, and they've got a whole lot
of other things on their minds, and a whole lot
of other things take their focus. Hence it's you know,
they're just not interested.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
I look at it a little differently. I think I
would have been ready to vote at sixteen. I was
really interested in politics. And I think even if it
is only one in ten are interested and take the
opportunity that. I think it's a good way of actually
doing what we need to do, which is get some
critical thinking and some understanding of how things work into
(07:34):
younger people. It's in New Zealand, it isn't compulsory to vote,
so it's not that they're going to have to, but
if they want to, I think they should be able to.
You know, I'm quite an advocate for making it sixteen.
And yes, I mean technically you're a child at sixteen,
but you know, you can get married, you can have
a job, to quite a lot of things that are
(07:54):
pretty adult.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
I mean, well, you're strictly you're a stricterent hell of
a lot too like including having a drink at a
pub without your parents being present. You can't own land.
You actually in terms of a binding contract that can
be the fourth against other people. We have different ages
for different things, but eighteen is really the age of adulthood.
I think the direction that we're moving in is we
get with gotten rid of the ability to get married
(08:17):
at sixteen. With Torring talking sent we you know, we've
pushing out responsibility for criminal acts even further and further.
We're talking about how people's brains can't develop properly and
they can't be held responsible. I think you do something
as you do, have to align chartered or minority in adulthood.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I think it's interesting ivoted at sixteen.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, and look I.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Could have got my driver's ice week at fourteen. I
grew up on a farm. There are rules on everything
can be individualized.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Well, yeah, I mean I am off now.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I I'm a bit with you, Irene. I've got one
kid who could have voted at sixteen, and one who
I now see is very much ready to vote at eighteen.
They're all everyone's different, aren't they. Hey, look really quickly, Irene,
would you buy a ticket for a movie a year
out before it's released.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Catsy, why not? Because I do that all the time
for music concerts, and it's completely normal. I'm not a
big movie goer. I tend to watch them at home,
but it was something really special and you've got on them.
It's it's a good it's a good hyping.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So this, well, that's interesting. This is sort of being
done for Christopher Nolan's new film, it's called The Odyssey,
which is still shooting.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Liam.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's not even ready to go give give mewhere near
a cinema. I get it for the concert ey Ring
because you have to buy the ticket quickly because they
sell out. But there's going to be lots of time
for me to buy. If I bought a ticket now, Liam,
for a movie in a year's time, I probably just
completely forget that I'd even purchase it.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah, I'm with your tongue. I'm a I'm a Christin
Olan fan, like I love even th Criston Oland puts out,
I watch I'll watch it as soon as I can.
But movies aren't scarce, you know. I think you hit
the nail over the head. You know. Concert tickets are scarce.
There's competition for them, there's the movie you can got
to really detail you want. Why would you give up
six of all the in the future when you can
have it in the future.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
No, look, I can't. Don't get me wrong. I can't
wait to see the film, but I probably Yeah, I
just lose that ticket in an inbox.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And it is time for the panel. And joining me
this morning a partner at Freebahn and Heir Lawyers, Liam Here,
Good morning, Liam, gid A, good thank you. We're also
joined by journalist, TV producer and commentator Irene Gardner.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Hi, Irene, Hi, Thank you, sco Kyoda.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you both for being with us. So this week
we saw the government end open playing classrooms in schools. Oh,
little clap coming from me for that. And today we
hear that there are significant concerns around NCEEA and changes
are being mulled over. In fact, we've been told that
all options are on the table. Both issues have been
(00:50):
I think spoken about quite a lot. So Liam, how
much pressure is there on the government to get this right?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I'm not sure how much pressure there is, but there
should be pressure to get it right because the currencystem
are so confusing. I'm lucky, right if I was the
last year to do school see some of the before
NCA came in. And funnally enough, I was crying through
some old papers yesterday the other day and I found
my school see six certificate and bursary.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Mark.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Well done were they were? They as impressive as you remember.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
I could have done better in some of them, but
you know it was you know, I could show someone that,
like they could see my proficiency. Whereas as an employee
now the MCA is just just meaningless. I've got an
idea of what it even means. And my younger brothers
and sisters said the same thing. It changed from year
to year. They continue to tinker with it and change
(01:45):
it all the time. It's just not a it's not
a useful standard. It's not a useful standard, and so
they should be under pressure to actually put in place
a durable system that actually tells people what people can
account and tell what they could and couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
But for some people them it is a perfectly good
standard because it gets them into med school, it gets
them into law school, it gets them into engineering. They're
getting to where they need to go, and the next
it becomes pretty much irrelevant.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Well, yes, apart from the fact that it pushes out
the sort of the gatekeeping. It pushes out the drafting
gate of what's proficient from in high school qualification through
to actually having a bachelor's degree. So in a lot
of ways, having a bachelor's degree is the function that
actually the college education school sief it's certificate and birthry
(02:30):
used to actually provide. So you can't tell from what
they did at school anymore, so you have to go
up the next thing, the university, And that's part of
what feeds into this huge swelling of university degrees that
don't always end up in jobs that need university degrees.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it's interesting, Iran. I mean, I've got one kid
who's just finished school and is a university and will
probably never think of NCAA again, and my daughter who
is in her final year, and so we've gone through it,
and I think there's a couple of things. One, it is,
as Liam said, it's impossible to understand. It needs to
be simplified and communicated better. But I wonder whether it's
about and I think that we need to be really
(03:06):
focus down on some core academic subjects. But on top
of that, I think the most important thing isn't necessarily
fixing the structure of it, is making sure that it's
been delivered really well. I think it's about putting our
investment into the people who deliver the system. We need
good teachers. My kids will say to you, doesn't matter
how it's structure, it doesn't matter what it is. You
(03:26):
just need a good teacher. That is the most important thing.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I tend to agree with that, And I'm always nervous
when politicians talk about, you know, something can't be fixed,
it needs to be completely redowne. Yes, that may well
be sometimes true, But I tend to be more of
a sort of pragmatic incrementalist, where look at what's actually working,
(03:50):
look at what's not, and fix it and make it work,
because just throwing everything out and starting again can be
just so disruptive. And I don't think our education system
needs any more disruption. I think you're right. I think
a lot of emphasis on the right people get sensible
(04:11):
teachers involved in whatever tweaks we're making. And this is
also this is my real hobby horse at the moment.
There are quite a few social things that absolutely need
to be cross party for our future so that they
cannot be a political football, and this is one of them.
If this is changing, being fixed, whatever, we're then sticking
(04:31):
with that and enhancing it. We're not changing it every
time we change government.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Liam I'm really interested to get your opinion on this
next topic I want to talk about it, and this
is that the UK is luring it's voting age to sixteen.
And it's something which has been discussed here in New
Zealand quite a lot. And I basically ask sixteen year olds.
They are the ones that have informed me as to
what they think whether we should reduce the age, and
they all look at me and go, hell, no, what
(05:00):
do you think? Do you think we should be being
progressive and lwering our voting age?
Speaker 4 (05:05):
If you bo or lamb here voting age, you will
find Eving introduced on this topic dozens and dozens of times.
And the reason is is because the zeal media struggles
to find pundits who will go on the news and
say that you shouldn't rope lower the voting age to sixteen,
that we should keep it as voting being something for adults,
not for older children. And that's amazing because all the polling,
(05:28):
without exception, all of it shows a massive, massive majority
against lowering the voting age in New Zealand, not like
sixty percent against seventy eighty eighty five percent against lowering
the voting age it's just so far against common sense.
You know, it's voting is for most people, it's considered
(05:49):
a part of being an adult, not part of being
a child. Now, there's always going to be accusations that
the reason why some parties want to lower the voting
age and why some people don't, it's because you know,
there's a political you know, the idea is that young
people are probably more to the left. I'm not so
concerned about that. Actually, you know, young people will politics
will always calibrate. One of the reasons I'd trump one
(06:12):
was because young people swung behind them in the last selection.
But to me, I believe in keeping. I believe that
there is a line between childhood and adulthood, and that
part of being adult is to take responsibility for those
things and not to put them on to children. That
children should enjoy not caring about politics, not being into
(06:32):
politics for as long as they can, because you have
your whole life to worry about politics. You only have
eighteen years to have a sort of have your childhood.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I mean, I mean, I tend to agree with Liam,
but for slightly different reasons. My whole thing is my
kids will tell me that maybe one out of ten
sixteen year olds is really engaged in politics, understands it
would actually contribute to voting. The rest of them aren't
(07:02):
even thinking about it, and they've got a whole lot
of other things on their minds, and a whole lot
of other things take their focus. Hence it's you know,
they're just not interested.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
I look at it a little differently. I think I
would have been ready to vote at sixteen. I was
really interested in politics. And I think even if it
is only one in ten are interested and take the
opportunity that. I think it's a good way of actually
doing what we need to do, which is get some
critical thinking and some understanding of how things work into
(07:34):
younger people. It's in New Zealand, it isn't compulsory to vote,
so it's not that they're going to have to, but
if they want to, I think they should be able to.
You know, I'm quite an advocate for making it sixteen.
And yes, I mean technically you're a child at sixteen,
but you know, you can get married, you can have
a job, to quite a lot of things that are
(07:54):
pretty adult.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
I mean, well, you're strictly you're a stricterent hell of
a lot too like including having a drink at a
pub without your parents being present. You can't own land.
You actually in terms of a binding contract that can
be the fourth against other people. We have different ages
for different things, but eighteen is really the age of adulthood.
I think the direction that we're moving in is we
get with gotten rid of the ability to get married
(08:17):
at sixteen. With Torring talking sent we you know, we've
pushing out responsibility for criminal acts even further and further.
We're talking about how people's brains can't develop properly and
they can't be held responsible. I think you do something
as you do, have to align chartered or minority in adulthood.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I think it's interesting ivoted at sixteen.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, and look I.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Could have got my driver's ice week at fourteen. I
grew up on a farm. There are rules on everything
can be individualized.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Well, yeah, I mean I am off now.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I I'm a bit with you, Irene. I've got one
kid who could have voted at sixteen, and one who
I now see is very much ready to vote at eighteen.
They're all everyone's different, aren't they. Hey, look really quickly, Irene,
would you buy a ticket for a movie a year
out before it's released.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Catsy, why not? Because I do that all the time
for music concerts, and it's completely normal. I'm not a
big movie goer. I tend to watch them at home,
but it was something really special and you've got on them.
It's it's a good it's a good hyping.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So this, well, that's interesting. This is sort of being
done for Christopher Nolan's new film, it's called The Odyssey,
which is still shooting.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Liam.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's not even ready to go give give mewhere near
a cinema. I get it for the concert ey Ring
because you have to buy the ticket quickly because they
sell out. But there's going to be lots of time
for me to buy. If I bought a ticket now, Liam,
for a movie in a year's time, I probably just
completely forget that I'd even purchase it.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah, I'm with your tongue. I'm a I'm a Christin
Olan fan, like I love even th Criston Oland puts out,
I watch I'll watch it as soon as I can.
But movies aren't scarce, you know. I think you hit
the nail over the head. You know. Concert tickets are scarce.
There's competition for them, there's the movie you can got
to really detail you want. Why would you give up
six of all the in the future when you can
have it in the future.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
No, look, I can't. Don't get me wrong. I can't
wait to see the film, but I probably Yeah, I
just lose that ticket in an inbox.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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