An international relations expert is deeming New Zealand's decision on Palestinian statehood as 'surprising'.
Winston Peters confirmed at the UN General Assembly that we won't recognise a Palestinian state right now - as the conditions aren't right.
Geopolitical analyst Geoffrey Miller says this decision is out of synch with our international allies, including Australia, the UK and Canada.
"And these are states with which New Zealand is quite close with, when it comes to positions on the war in Gaza since October 7th. New Zealand has signed a number of joint statements with Australia and Canada, for example...it's worked very closely with those three."
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News TALKSTB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
SO the government has finally announced New Zealand's position on
the Palestine statehood. Talking from the UN General Assembly yesterday,
Foreign Minister Winston Peters said Palestine did not meet the
criteria of a state.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Because recognition is an instrument for peace. As an instant
for peace, also does not play because there are no
fully legitimate and viable state of Palestine to recognize.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon also spoke to media about the decision.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
We're going to do everything we can to buttress and
build the Palestinian authority, but at the moment we have
a Hamas in government and that is unacceptable for us
to recognize any state that has a terrorist organization.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
To talk us through it, I'm joined by geopolitical analyst
Jeffrey Miller. Good morning, Jeffrey, Good morning, Francesca. Wondering if
I can ask you this question. First up, does international
recognition bring Palestine any closer to statehood?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Well, it is symbolic in a sense, recognition in a sense.
Winston Peters is correct that you do not have a
viable state at this moment to recognize that there are
no agreed borders, there's no capital, there's no international airport,
there's no army, and so on. All the trappings of
a state in a sense are absent. But the whole
point is why states are recognizing a Palestinian state right now,
(01:29):
is that Israel is doing its utmost to try and
make a state of Palestine impossible. And Bena Minettiinno, who
spoke several hours before when St. Peter's did yesterday, was
clear that he would never accept a Palestinian state. He
said it would be national suicide to allow the creation
of a Palestinian state. So I think the argument in
(01:50):
favor of creating it, of recognizing a Palestinian state, is
very much to back that two state solution and to
show commitment to the creation of a Palestinian state. And
it is the majority position here. One hundred and fifty
seven states out of one hundred and ninety three in
the UIN NO recognized the Palestinian state. So New Zealand
is an outlier in the national community by taking this position.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So were you surprised by the stance New Zealand's taken.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Here, Yes, I was because New Zealand really is outside
the mainstream. And it's outside of the mainstream in terms
of those figures. I gave you one hundred and fifty
seven states recognizing a Palestinian state, and it's out of
sync with its close partners like Australia, like the United Kingdom,
like Canada. And these are states with which New Zealand
(02:37):
has worked quite closely when it comes to positions on
the war in Gaza. Since octob seventh, New Zealand design
a number of joint statements with Australia and Canada, for example,
and with the United Kingdom. It's worked very closely with
those three countries. So I am surprised. And also domestically,
if you look at polling, we did have that recent
Red Research poll that showed forty two percent of New
(02:59):
Zealanders we're in favor of recognizing a Palestinian state twenty
two percent against around a third didn't know. But it
is a there is a plurality there forty two percent
who were in favor of recognition of a Palestinian state.
So it is a little surprising.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yes, I understand that. You know, if you're you're a
government that represents the people, then you know, you've got
to be listening to the people and things. But we
also shouldn't be making decisions based on what our ally
as are other people are doing. We should be making
our own decisions too, shouldn't we.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Well, that's true, and decisions should not necessarily be a
popularity contest in international relations. And there are some arguments
in favor of holding off with recognition, and Winston Peter's
made that case yesterday and the details of his speech
setting out all of these reasons that the that you
know you did have hamas they're still in charge in Gaza,
(03:48):
that you didn't have a viable state to recognize and
so on. He was saying very much, and he used
these words, it's when, not if New Zealand recognizes a
Palestinian state. So it's not that new editor is against
a Palestinian state. And to the contrary, I think new
enitd is in favor of it, just not right now.
That's the position from with Sint Peter's. The problem I
(04:08):
think the government will have is that I don't think
anyone in the international community, international observers will be overly
interested in the fine print and the detail of New
Zealand's position. They'll simply be looking at the map. And
I'll say that New Zealand is one of a small
group of countries that have sided with Israel here. And
you had the Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister overnight celebrating New
(04:28):
Zealand's position, calling it an example of moral courage and
common sense. And I think a lot of countries and
this coast, particularly for New Zealand's friends and partners in
the Middle East, they'll be perplexed and puzzled and disappointed
by this decision by New Zealand, and they will see
New Zealand as siding with Israel, which is against the
creation of a Palestinian stateful stop, even if that is
not in that position.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
That's the issue I see. Yeah, I mean, at the
end of the day, You're right, we all want the
same outcome. We all want the same thing to happen.
We want the violence to stop, we want to cease far,
we want aid to get in. We want to be
able to work towards this two sets. It's just how
we get there. That sort of is the difference, really,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Indeed, I think New Zealand has spoken out quite strongly,
and Winston Peters has spoken out quite strongly and quite
eloquently many times since October the seventh. He called it
an out of catastrophe. Last year at the United Nations,
what is unfolding in Gaza. I think there's immense frustration
at what is happening in Gaza in the war. Christopher
(05:27):
Luxon came out yesterday and said New Zealand's pro peace
and wants the ceasefire and wants the water in. I
do think there is an argument that New Zealand, if
it is going to take this position, and if New
Zealand is going to hold off recognizing a Palestinian state,
there's an argument that New Zealand needs to become more
involved in the nitty gritty of peacemaking rather than just
calling for peace from the safety of the South Pacific,
(05:49):
maybe taking a more active role in the ceasefie negotiations,
the peacemaking efforts. Now, that's a thankless task and many
have been burnt in the past by getting involved in this.
I'm not saying New Zealand at all should be doing
this on its own. It needs to work with its partners,
particularly in the Middle least and around the world. But
(06:09):
I think New Zealand can play a small part, a
small but significant part, as a small state that does
get on reasonably well with both sides. And when Christopher
Luxen said that yesterday that New Zealand's a friend to
both sides, well, if we're a friend to both sides,
I think we need to sort this war out pronto
and get involved and become more active. I think Winston
(06:30):
Peters is a pretty experienced foreign minister now he's been
foreign minister three times. He does have the statesman like
persona that he likes to present on the international stage.
I think there will be an opportunity if he wanted to,
and if New Zealand wanted to commit resources to New
Zealand becoming a bit more actively involved in the peacemaking process.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Because of course, yesterday, you know, he did call for
more action, less words. We're really just offered words. And
I was curious, you know, is there any action that
New Zealand can do to make a difference. And you've
pointed out a way that we could assist here. What
about sanctions though, I mean, can that have an impact
at all? And trade bands, travel bands, tariffs, you know
(07:09):
things like that.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Look, New Zealand's put tariff, Sorry, New Zealand's put travel
bans on Bisileel small threat, the finance minister of Israel
and as Bengavia, the national security minister. Look, there are
extremist settlers that you could put sanctions on, But I
don't think any of these things are really going to
change things overly. And the European Union is looking at
(07:30):
at tariffs on Israeli products. We're looking at at the
moment there's a drive to ban Israel from the Eurovision
Song contest and so forth. Look, the history of sanctions
and international relations is not particularly favorable in terms of
their ability to make a difference because it tends to
galvanize the population of a state. If you look at Iran,
if you look at Cuba, you look at Russia. These
(07:53):
sanctions policies, you know, you can put them in place,
but they're usually workarounds and they usually lead to, as
to say, a galvanizing of support amongst the population. So
it would be an option. New Zealand might want to
go down that road further, but I don't think we
should get ourselves. I don't think sanctions are going to
really make a huge difference here. What would make a
difference is New Zealand getting involved in the nitty gritty
(08:15):
of peacemaking. It looked it might come up, you might
come up with nothing in the end, and it might
not work. But I don't think that's a reason not
to try. And particularly after taking this position yes today,
if we're going to take the view that we're going
to be even handed here and we're going to be
a friend to both sides and we're not going to
recognize a Palestinian state because there isn't one created because
(08:35):
we need the water stop first, well, I think you've
got particularly an obligation then to become more actively involved
in that peacemaking ceasefire process. And there are plenty of
others involved in this Cutter obviously, which was bombed for
its trouble, you know, Egypt. There are many across the
Middle least many states involved in this process. I think
(08:58):
New Zealand is an outside party. As a small state,
a small democracy, it could become involved in this if
it chose to do.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
If we really appreciate your time this morning, Thank you
so much. That was Jeffrey Miller.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin. Listen
live to News Talks at B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News TALKSTB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
SO the government has finally announced New Zealand's position on
the Palestine statehood. Talking from the UN General Assembly yesterday,
Foreign Minister Winston Peters said Palestine did not meet the
criteria of a state.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Because recognition is an instrument for peace. As an instant
for peace, also does not play because there are no
fully legitimate and viable state of Palestine to recognize.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon also spoke to media about the decision.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
We're going to do everything we can to buttress and
build the Palestinian authority, but at the moment we have
a Hamas in government and that is unacceptable for us
to recognize any state that has a terrorist organization.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
To talk us through it, I'm joined by geopolitical analyst
Jeffrey Miller. Good morning, Jeffrey, Good morning, Francesca. Wondering if
I can ask you this question. First up, does international
recognition bring Palestine any closer to statehood?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Well, it is symbolic in a sense, recognition in a sense.
Winston Peters is correct that you do not have a
viable state at this moment to recognize that there are
no agreed borders, there's no capital, there's no international airport,
there's no army, and so on. All the trappings of
a state in a sense are absent. But the whole
point is why states are recognizing a Palestinian state right now,
(01:29):
is that Israel is doing its utmost to try and
make a state of Palestine impossible. And Bena Minettiinno, who
spoke several hours before when St. Peter's did yesterday, was
clear that he would never accept a Palestinian state. He
said it would be national suicide to allow the creation
of a Palestinian state. So I think the argument in
(01:50):
favor of creating it, of recognizing a Palestinian state, is
very much to back that two state solution and to
show commitment to the creation of a Palestinian state. And
it is the majority position here. One hundred and fifty
seven states out of one hundred and ninety three in
the UIN NO recognized the Palestinian state. So New Zealand
is an outlier in the national community by taking this position.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So were you surprised by the stance New Zealand's taken.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Here, Yes, I was because New Zealand really is outside
the mainstream. And it's outside of the mainstream in terms
of those figures. I gave you one hundred and fifty
seven states recognizing a Palestinian state, and it's out of
sync with its close partners like Australia, like the United Kingdom,
like Canada. And these are states with which New Zealand
(02:37):
has worked quite closely when it comes to positions on
the war in Gaza. Since octob seventh, New Zealand design
a number of joint statements with Australia and Canada, for example,
and with the United Kingdom. It's worked very closely with
those three countries. So I am surprised. And also domestically,
if you look at polling, we did have that recent
Red Research poll that showed forty two percent of New
(02:59):
Zealanders we're in favor of recognizing a Palestinian state twenty
two percent against around a third didn't know. But it
is a there is a plurality there forty two percent
who were in favor of recognition of a Palestinian state.
So it is a little surprising.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yes, I understand that. You know, if you're you're a
government that represents the people, then you know, you've got
to be listening to the people and things. But we
also shouldn't be making decisions based on what our ally
as are other people are doing. We should be making
our own decisions too, shouldn't we.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Well, that's true, and decisions should not necessarily be a
popularity contest in international relations. And there are some arguments
in favor of holding off with recognition, and Winston Peter's
made that case yesterday and the details of his speech
setting out all of these reasons that the that you
know you did have hamas they're still in charge in Gaza,
(03:48):
that you didn't have a viable state to recognize and
so on. He was saying very much, and he used
these words, it's when, not if New Zealand recognizes a
Palestinian state. So it's not that new editor is against
a Palestinian state. And to the contrary, I think new
enitd is in favor of it, just not right now.
That's the position from with Sint Peter's. The problem I
(04:08):
think the government will have is that I don't think
anyone in the international community, international observers will be overly
interested in the fine print and the detail of New
Zealand's position. They'll simply be looking at the map. And
I'll say that New Zealand is one of a small
group of countries that have sided with Israel here. And
you had the Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister overnight celebrating New
(04:28):
Zealand's position, calling it an example of moral courage and
common sense. And I think a lot of countries and
this coast, particularly for New Zealand's friends and partners in
the Middle East, they'll be perplexed and puzzled and disappointed
by this decision by New Zealand, and they will see
New Zealand as siding with Israel, which is against the
creation of a Palestinian stateful stop, even if that is
not in that position.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
That's the issue I see. Yeah, I mean, at the
end of the day, You're right, we all want the
same outcome. We all want the same thing to happen.
We want the violence to stop, we want to cease far,
we want aid to get in. We want to be
able to work towards this two sets. It's just how
we get there. That sort of is the difference, really,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Indeed, I think New Zealand has spoken out quite strongly,
and Winston Peters has spoken out quite strongly and quite
eloquently many times since October the seventh. He called it
an out of catastrophe. Last year at the United Nations,
what is unfolding in Gaza. I think there's immense frustration
at what is happening in Gaza in the war. Christopher
(05:27):
Luxon came out yesterday and said New Zealand's pro peace
and wants the ceasefire and wants the water in. I
do think there is an argument that New Zealand, if
it is going to take this position, and if New
Zealand is going to hold off recognizing a Palestinian state,
there's an argument that New Zealand needs to become more
involved in the nitty gritty of peacemaking rather than just
calling for peace from the safety of the South Pacific,
(05:49):
maybe taking a more active role in the ceasefie negotiations,
the peacemaking efforts. Now, that's a thankless task and many
have been burnt in the past by getting involved in this.
I'm not saying New Zealand at all should be doing
this on its own. It needs to work with its partners,
particularly in the Middle least and around the world. But
(06:09):
I think New Zealand can play a small part, a
small but significant part, as a small state that does
get on reasonably well with both sides. And when Christopher
Luxen said that yesterday that New Zealand's a friend to
both sides, well, if we're a friend to both sides,
I think we need to sort this war out pronto
and get involved and become more active. I think Winston
(06:30):
Peters is a pretty experienced foreign minister now he's been
foreign minister three times. He does have the statesman like
persona that he likes to present on the international stage.
I think there will be an opportunity if he wanted to,
and if New Zealand wanted to commit resources to New
Zealand becoming a bit more actively involved in the peacemaking process.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Because of course, yesterday, you know, he did call for
more action, less words. We're really just offered words. And
I was curious, you know, is there any action that
New Zealand can do to make a difference. And you've
pointed out a way that we could assist here. What
about sanctions though, I mean, can that have an impact
at all? And trade bands, travel bands, tariffs, you know
(07:09):
things like that.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Look, New Zealand's put tariff, Sorry, New Zealand's put travel
bans on Bisileel small threat, the finance minister of Israel
and as Bengavia, the national security minister. Look, there are
extremist settlers that you could put sanctions on, But I
don't think any of these things are really going to
change things overly. And the European Union is looking at
(07:30):
at tariffs on Israeli products. We're looking at at the
moment there's a drive to ban Israel from the Eurovision
Song contest and so forth. Look, the history of sanctions
and international relations is not particularly favorable in terms of
their ability to make a difference because it tends to
galvanize the population of a state. If you look at Iran,
if you look at Cuba, you look at Russia. These
(07:53):
sanctions policies, you know, you can put them in place,
but they're usually workarounds and they usually lead to, as
to say, a galvanizing of support amongst the population. So
it would be an option. New Zealand might want to
go down that road further, but I don't think we
should get ourselves. I don't think sanctions are going to
really make a huge difference here. What would make a
difference is New Zealand getting involved in the nitty gritty
(08:15):
of peacemaking. It looked it might come up, you might
come up with nothing in the end, and it might
not work. But I don't think that's a reason not
to try. And particularly after taking this position yes today,
if we're going to take the view that we're going
to be even handed here and we're going to be
a friend to both sides and we're not going to
recognize a Palestinian state because there isn't one created because
(08:35):
we need the water stop first, well, I think you've
got particularly an obligation then to become more actively involved
in that peacemaking ceasefire process. And there are plenty of
others involved in this Cutter obviously, which was bombed for
its trouble, you know, Egypt. There are many across the
Middle least many states involved in this process. I think
(08:58):
New Zealand is an outside party. As a small state,
a small democracy, it could become involved in this if
it chose to do.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
If we really appreciate your time this morning, Thank you
so much. That was Jeffrey Miller.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin. Listen
live to News Talks at B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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