October 11, 2025 • 9 mins
This week on the Sunday Panel, Director at Capital, Ben Thomas, and NZ Herald senior writer, Simon Wilson, joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
The local body elections wrapped up this weekend and recent data is showing the voter turnout was historically low. Why don’t people take local body elections seriously? Is it a lack of decent candidates? Is it a thankless task? Do we need to change the way we vote?
Both Andrew Little and Wayne Brown have mentioned working with central Government as being part of their plan - does there need to be a stronger relationship between local and central Government to get things done?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Panel Time and joining me now is Director at Capital
Ben Thomas. Good morning, Ben, Modernor and New Zealand Herald
senior writer Simon Wilson, How are you doing? Simon?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hi there, Francesca.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Let's talk about the local body elections and that's that.
Why not because they've been exciting Lower voter turnout was
something that we have been talking about today, Simon, Why
don't people take local body elections seriously?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I think there are a whole lot of reasons from
certainly in Auckland where I am there, it wasn't a
big mayor race, so I think that suppressed the turnout.
People didn't think there was a lot at stake. Wayne
Brown was going to win any way. That kind of feeling.
I think there may have been similar in Wellington with
Andrew Little. But there is also a general sense that
(01:00):
these are not important, which is surprising because councilors make
decisions all the time that the way we live in
the streets we live in and this and because of that,
there's this kind of feedback loop with the media. Media
haven't provided the level of coverage of these elections that
(01:20):
we have done in previous years. And that's because it's
a perception people don't want to know, so it feeds
on that and then it goes round and around.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
You know, Look, I tend to agree with you, you know,
a lack of good challenges, a lack of candidates and things.
But is it being also the way we vote? Do
we need to change this? You know, you can put
it in the post when you get around to it,
but maybe by the seventh and then you don't even
know what date the election is. Do we need to
change the way we're voting as well?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Oh? Look, absolutely, I think if there's I think everything
Simon's saying is right. I think, you know, there's low
salience for voters. People just aren't equate acquainted with the issues.
You know, they are things that are either very local
so they don't seem relevant to a lot of people,
or they are you know, issues that are about pipes
(02:11):
and roads that might be kind of hard to engage us.
But but yeah, no, look, I think the format is
suddenly an issue. If you did want to get anyone
under sixty voting in local elections. Postal voting is a
terrible way to do that. I don't know where I
would posts, you know, I think a change to in
(02:37):
person voting, you know, it suddenly couldn't hurt to at
least offer that. You know, maybe they could to a
hybrid online voting. I think now there are a few
issues with that, you know, and after some early enthusiasm
that you know, maybe that's not the route to go down.
But yeah, look at there are suddenly barriers I think,
(02:57):
to getting people interested in and actually returning their votes.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Francesca, I wonder if I could just add something to that.
Wayne Brown said yesterday and his victory speech which I
tend up to listen to that, Yes, he agreed the
method of voting was out of dat and wasn't serving
democracy well, but he said that's out of our hands.
That's a government issue. He's actually wrong about that. With
council with him voted against having in person going to
(03:24):
a booth voting a couple of years ago in Auckland,
they could have voted to have it. That's come back
to haunt them a little. I think.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I think the postage thing is definitely an issue with
young people as well. I had a twenty three year
old recently who asked me how to address an envelope.
So I don't know how they would ever find a post,
you know what I mean, It's like, how do you
do this?
Speaker 4 (03:42):
We did?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You put everything on this?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
On this?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It was like, you know, but you know, the other
thing I really struggled with, Simon was finding good, useful
information to help me make a decision. You know, I
want to vote for and is that on the media
They're not you know, is this a lack of all
those small community newspapers we used to have.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
It's partly that it's both those things. That one of
the the ironic things is that there is actually a
very good website which operates nationwide and asks candidates a
range of questions and drills into them. So they've got
to provide answers that separate them away from the just
the I want to do better for my city type answers,
(04:25):
and that's all available and get some promotion. But that's
not what people think of when they think I want
to know who to vote for. I want to know.
So even though we're a digitally more literate society, we're
not turning to digital outlets like that for the information
we're certainly turning to TikTok and Instagram and Facebook.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Was that policy dot dot D Yeah? Now I tried
to use that, and unfortunately you'd come across, you know,
the same questions being as someone been, and it would
be no response, nor response, no respons I like pretty
much did the efforts the assignment. I say what you mean,
but we just haven't quite kind of got into it.
Both Andrew Little and Wayne Brown meant to working with
(05:09):
central government as being central to the plant. Actually so
did Hamilton mayor everybody is actually been does there need
to be stronger relationships between local and central government to
get things done?
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Yeah? Absolutely, particularly in an infrastructure since you know, Chris
Bishop has talked about, you know, the frustrations with providing
for new development and different cities but actually getting the
infrastructure there, you know, like new water connections, and you
know there are sort of private financing tools available for
(05:44):
that kind of thing, but you know, ideally you would
want more co ordination between local government for doing the
local roads and for doing you know, water infrastructure, and
then you know ended ta trying to aura if it
was you know, if it's doing developments, you know, and
(06:05):
those kinds of groups. So you know, that coordination problem
is something that hasn't been solved yet. You know, the
government has plans to sort of address it through these
regional and city deals and you know that's a work
in progress, so it'll be interesting to see how it
shakes out. But you know, absolutely there does need to
be a better alignment between the two.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
How else would you address it, Ben.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
In terms of well, you know, look, it's always difficult
because you know each each both the Council and the government,
you know, do tend to want to be that you know,
they both want to work together, but they both want
to work together on their plans, on.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Their plans, and yes, how.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
It looks, yeah, and look they are responding to for
you know, different constituencies. In a lot of cases, you
know there's some overlap. But you know, central government it
doesn't necessarily want to spend its money on local government
and vice versus.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Simon, do you think that there will be more coordination
between them? Are you confident?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Well, in Auckland terms, it's a very big issue and
it comes down to transport. Wayne Brown yesterday said he
did not want the government to be spending lots of
time and money on a new harbour crossing that he
thought wouldn't happen for I quote ten thousand years. And
he also doesn't want them spending time and money on
roads of national significance, of which there are four planned
(07:31):
for the Auckland region. He wants the money to go
into more rail. Winston Peters has been saying if we
don't provide more rail capacity for freight with the boosted
capacity for Northport and Auckland Port, then the city railing
won't be able to carry enough computer commuter trains. That's
a very big issue which is not on the national
government's agenda, although it's on. Winston Peters and Wayne Brown
(07:55):
also wants much more money put into public transport and
much more efficient public transport. So there is a really big,
if you like, clash of world views ideologies about how
you fixed transport in the city to be resolved, and
that is the central task between Brown this term.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And there are a lot of politicking I think Simon indeed, yes,
Andrew Little wants a rates cap. Should the government put
a rates cap on council's been or is actually this
the council's responsibility? They created for a year budget you
stick to the budget you work out to spend. Should
they be just be doing this themselves.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I look, I think the rates cap is well intentioned,
you know, the government, or at least the national part
of the government's moves towards the rates cap and the
work that they're doing, but I think it's probably a
bit ill conceived. The reason that rates have had to
rise so recently, so much, you know, in the past
few years, is first of all, obviously inflation, particularly the
(08:51):
things that council spends its money on by construction. But
the other thing is massive under investment for a long
long time, because if you tried to raise rates, you
would lose, and the no rates raise candidate would beat
you and become the new mayor and new counts, and
so I think that's one of the worst instincts of
(09:12):
local councils, and it's led to things like our absolutely
crumbling water infrastructure in a lot of parts of the country.
So I think there would be perverse outcomes if you
tried to do you just sort of very blunt rape camping.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Ben Thomas and Simon Wilson, thank you very much for
your time this morning. Appreciated it.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin. Listen
live to News Talks the b from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Panel Time and joining me now is Director at Capital
Ben Thomas. Good morning, Ben, Modernor and New Zealand Herald
senior writer Simon Wilson, How are you doing? Simon?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hi there, Francesca.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Let's talk about the local body elections and that's that.
Why not because they've been exciting Lower voter turnout was
something that we have been talking about today, Simon, Why
don't people take local body elections seriously?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I think there are a whole lot of reasons from
certainly in Auckland where I am there, it wasn't a
big mayor race, so I think that suppressed the turnout.
People didn't think there was a lot at stake. Wayne
Brown was going to win any way. That kind of feeling.
I think there may have been similar in Wellington with
Andrew Little. But there is also a general sense that
(01:00):
these are not important, which is surprising because councilors make
decisions all the time that the way we live in
the streets we live in and this and because of that,
there's this kind of feedback loop with the media. Media
haven't provided the level of coverage of these elections that
(01:20):
we have done in previous years. And that's because it's
a perception people don't want to know, so it feeds
on that and then it goes round and around.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
You know, Look, I tend to agree with you, you know,
a lack of good challenges, a lack of candidates and things.
But is it being also the way we vote? Do
we need to change this? You know, you can put
it in the post when you get around to it,
but maybe by the seventh and then you don't even
know what date the election is. Do we need to
change the way we're voting as well?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Oh? Look, absolutely, I think if there's I think everything
Simon's saying is right. I think, you know, there's low
salience for voters. People just aren't equate acquainted with the issues.
You know, they are things that are either very local
so they don't seem relevant to a lot of people,
or they are you know, issues that are about pipes
(02:11):
and roads that might be kind of hard to engage us.
But but yeah, no, look, I think the format is
suddenly an issue. If you did want to get anyone
under sixty voting in local elections. Postal voting is a
terrible way to do that. I don't know where I
would posts, you know, I think a change to in
(02:37):
person voting, you know, it suddenly couldn't hurt to at
least offer that. You know, maybe they could to a
hybrid online voting. I think now there are a few
issues with that, you know, and after some early enthusiasm
that you know, maybe that's not the route to go down.
But yeah, look at there are suddenly barriers I think,
(02:57):
to getting people interested in and actually returning their votes.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Francesca, I wonder if I could just add something to that.
Wayne Brown said yesterday and his victory speech which I
tend up to listen to that, Yes, he agreed the
method of voting was out of dat and wasn't serving
democracy well, but he said that's out of our hands.
That's a government issue. He's actually wrong about that. With
council with him voted against having in person going to
(03:24):
a booth voting a couple of years ago in Auckland,
they could have voted to have it. That's come back
to haunt them a little. I think.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I think the postage thing is definitely an issue with
young people as well. I had a twenty three year
old recently who asked me how to address an envelope.
So I don't know how they would ever find a post,
you know what I mean, It's like, how do you
do this?
Speaker 4 (03:42):
We did?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You put everything on this?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
On this?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It was like, you know, but you know, the other
thing I really struggled with, Simon was finding good, useful
information to help me make a decision. You know, I
want to vote for and is that on the media
They're not you know, is this a lack of all
those small community newspapers we used to have.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
It's partly that it's both those things. That one of
the the ironic things is that there is actually a
very good website which operates nationwide and asks candidates a
range of questions and drills into them. So they've got
to provide answers that separate them away from the just
the I want to do better for my city type answers,
(04:25):
and that's all available and get some promotion. But that's
not what people think of when they think I want
to know who to vote for. I want to know.
So even though we're a digitally more literate society, we're
not turning to digital outlets like that for the information
we're certainly turning to TikTok and Instagram and Facebook.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Was that policy dot dot D Yeah? Now I tried
to use that, and unfortunately you'd come across, you know,
the same questions being as someone been, and it would
be no response, nor response, no respons I like pretty
much did the efforts the assignment. I say what you mean,
but we just haven't quite kind of got into it.
Both Andrew Little and Wayne Brown meant to working with
(05:09):
central government as being central to the plant. Actually so
did Hamilton mayor everybody is actually been does there need
to be stronger relationships between local and central government to
get things done?
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Yeah? Absolutely, particularly in an infrastructure since you know, Chris
Bishop has talked about, you know, the frustrations with providing
for new development and different cities but actually getting the
infrastructure there, you know, like new water connections, and you
know there are sort of private financing tools available for
(05:44):
that kind of thing, but you know, ideally you would
want more co ordination between local government for doing the
local roads and for doing you know, water infrastructure, and
then you know ended ta trying to aura if it
was you know, if it's doing developments, you know, and
(06:05):
those kinds of groups. So you know, that coordination problem
is something that hasn't been solved yet. You know, the
government has plans to sort of address it through these
regional and city deals and you know that's a work
in progress, so it'll be interesting to see how it
shakes out. But you know, absolutely there does need to
be a better alignment between the two.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
How else would you address it, Ben.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
In terms of well, you know, look, it's always difficult
because you know each each both the Council and the government,
you know, do tend to want to be that you know,
they both want to work together, but they both want
to work together on their plans, on.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Their plans, and yes, how.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
It looks, yeah, and look they are responding to for
you know, different constituencies. In a lot of cases, you
know there's some overlap. But you know, central government it
doesn't necessarily want to spend its money on local government
and vice versus.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Simon, do you think that there will be more coordination
between them? Are you confident?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Well, in Auckland terms, it's a very big issue and
it comes down to transport. Wayne Brown yesterday said he
did not want the government to be spending lots of
time and money on a new harbour crossing that he
thought wouldn't happen for I quote ten thousand years. And
he also doesn't want them spending time and money on
roads of national significance, of which there are four planned
(07:31):
for the Auckland region. He wants the money to go
into more rail. Winston Peters has been saying if we
don't provide more rail capacity for freight with the boosted
capacity for Northport and Auckland Port, then the city railing
won't be able to carry enough computer commuter trains. That's
a very big issue which is not on the national
government's agenda, although it's on. Winston Peters and Wayne Brown
(07:55):
also wants much more money put into public transport and
much more efficient public transport. So there is a really big,
if you like, clash of world views ideologies about how
you fixed transport in the city to be resolved, and
that is the central task between Brown this term.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And there are a lot of politicking I think Simon indeed, yes,
Andrew Little wants a rates cap. Should the government put
a rates cap on council's been or is actually this
the council's responsibility? They created for a year budget you
stick to the budget you work out to spend. Should
they be just be doing this themselves.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I look, I think the rates cap is well intentioned,
you know, the government, or at least the national part
of the government's moves towards the rates cap and the
work that they're doing, but I think it's probably a
bit ill conceived. The reason that rates have had to
rise so recently, so much, you know, in the past
few years, is first of all, obviously inflation, particularly the
(08:51):
things that council spends its money on by construction. But
the other thing is massive under investment for a long
long time, because if you tried to raise rates, you
would lose, and the no rates raise candidate would beat
you and become the new mayor and new counts, and
so I think that's one of the worst instincts of
(09:12):
local councils, and it's led to things like our absolutely
crumbling water infrastructure in a lot of parts of the country.
So I think there would be perverse outcomes if you
tried to do you just sort of very blunt rape camping.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Ben Thomas and Simon Wilson, thank you very much for
your time this morning. Appreciated it.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin. Listen
live to News Talks the b from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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