Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind with Kate Banford

Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus have had all memory of the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind episode with guest Kate Banford erased from their memories. Please never mention it to them again (but do listen, it's a dope ep in this doctor's opinion).

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the beck Doll Cast. The questions asked if movies
have wenen and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands or do they happened individualism the patriarchy zef
in best start changing it with the beck del Cast. Hi,
welcome to the back Doll Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus,
my name is Caitlin Durante. And we're back, Baby, We're back.

(00:22):
I mean, for you guys were never we were never gone.
But for us, we were gone. We were gone in
the sunset. I was out of town for a couple
of weeks and we changed and you were gone. You
were also gone. I'm so sorry to forget your experience,
even though I just said I was gone. Wait, okay, yeah,
I was gone for longer. So I feel like I win.

(00:43):
That is what I want to think about it. You
actually did win the contest of being gone. And then
also we are recording in yet a different place than
we have in all of our other episodes. Yeah, because
we were mostly at the studio at Maldon Comics. And
then we record at a few episodes at the Ruby,
which is a comedy venue next door to Meltdown Plug,

(01:06):
A good venue venue. Sorry, I shouldn't have say good.
I was just thinking about, well, we'll get there. We'll
get there. Now. We are recording in the How Stuff
Works studio. Yeah, I'm freaking. I mean, daily Zeitgeist is
recorded here. We're here pretty frequently. I love a snack
set up here. The one note one note for this

(01:29):
amazing new space we're being allowed to use. Um Aristotle
is a full pane of glass away from us. Yes,
and that is new and I have to turn around
to see him. It's really well, we're experimenting with the
chair set up like this. I would say, this isn't
like I don't know. We'll see, we'll feel it out. Anyways,
we're excited. Were excited. We've got an a v club

(01:50):
right up. Today we did that was a kick. By
the time you're you'll hear this episode, it'll be weeks away.
But yeah, it's new for us today. Yeah. Yeah, with
our Anna Josie episode on She's all that. So we're excited.
We get a lot of stuff to talk about today.
I'm so thrilled about our guests today. Let's oh wait,
what's the vital test? Oh yeah, let's talk about that.

(02:10):
Forgot So the Bechtel Cast is a podcast where we
talk about the portrayal of women and it's inspired by
the Bechdel Test, which requires that a movie has two
female identifying characters in it who have names, who speak
to each other, and their conversation has to be about
anything other than a man. Can I give you literally

(02:32):
the most like insane example of the Bechtel test being passed?
So for work this week, for work, I had to
play this anime porn game called Pussy Saga. For I
didn't have to play it for ten hours, but I
did play it for ten hours. Pussy Saga, I mean,

(02:52):
by and large, really just a scourge on humanity where
it's all animal titties. It's to choose your own adventure
game and the setup is wild. The setup is that
the Greek poet Sappho has been kidnapped, famous queer Greek
poet Sappho has been kidnapped by a sex demon and me,

(03:13):
the player also me personally, has to fill a jar
with the come of five different women uh in order
to rescue the Greek poets Sappho. And that's the conceived
of the game, which is wild. To hear from a
woman you meet because she is broken into your home.
It is masturbating on your bed. This is not called
into question. This is the rules of the universe. So

(03:35):
I go in there like, okay, I know you just
got me masturbating. But here's the thing. The Greek poets
Sappho has been kidnapped and you need to get the
come of five women or she will die. And I
was like, okay, let's do it. Anyways, you have to,
you know, sort of spread your seed. And it's very
problematic and I don't have time to get into it.

(03:55):
But the way you meet the women who's come, you
can say, truly get to release the Greek poets afo.
The way you meet is there is a conversation, a
cut scene where they talk to each other, which means
every woman you've ever had sex with knows each other
by one degree of separation. Another crazy world rule. But
I mean that's pretty much part for the course for me.

(04:16):
So there, Wow, you're such a wild child. There's okay.
So this is a scene between Marina and Linda, both
of whom I've had digital sex with. Also, you don't
actually have c intercourse or have sex with them. You
see basically play candy crush and then at the end
it's like you fucked her, she's yours now, and it's

(04:37):
it's wild you play puzzles. So they have this really
like kind of sweet cutaway scene about Linda's relationship with
her mom right before I have sex with both of them.
This is your mom still nagging you. You need to
tell her this relationship isn't normal. And then Linda says,
I don't know she's my mother. After all, I'm not
afraid of her or anything. I just feel lousy when

(04:59):
I'm around owned her. That passes the PacTel shirt. And anyways,
this episode is sponsored by Pussy Saga and do not
play it well. This has been a long and trail. Yeah,
but I'm glad you shared that with us. It's important
for our listeners to know. I wrote a three thousand
word essay about it. So there's more if you're interested

(05:21):
in pussy tagas. Anyways, let's get to our podcast that
we have. Let's do that just got very disturbed our
guest today. We're very excited about um. She owns and
runs the Good Good Comedy Theater in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania
being the state that I'm from. Interesting that you made
that about you, So sorry. I just started for four

(05:44):
to five minutes about anyway. She is wonderful. You're gonna
love her. Kate Banford, Hello, Thanks. Okay, I also feel
very rude because I told you to say that, but
I should say I co own and co run it
with Aaron Evans, who my other half. Well that's another
one of the great, another great, great person. Thanks for

(06:05):
being here, and thanks for bringing us the movie Eternal
Sunshine of the Spotless Mine. Thank you for having me.
I'm very excited to talk about it. So what's your
history with this movie? When did you first see it? So?
I don't remember. I was trying to rack my brain
of the first time I saw this movie, and I
don't quite recall, but I feel like I probably saw

(06:26):
it for the first time when I was like a teen,
maybe like in my fifteens sixteens, and that era, which
is pre ever having a serious relationship or hating someone
while also loving them in that particular way. Um, but
I had just rewatched this movie. Actually, it's crazy. I
watched the movie recently, cried afterwards for like twenty minutes straight,

(06:50):
and then I watched the commentary, like right, after that
as well, and then I watched it again this morning,
so I've really been just knee deep in some nal
sunshine recently. Sure, yeah, it's really good. It's yeah. I
think part of the reason why I wanted to talk
about this movie is it's just so emotionally captivating and

(07:12):
it's like also just like visually, it's like stimulating to
all the senses except for taste. I taste, I can
taste smart RUFFLOA wow, very h that was my big
crush take away from this movie was a new I

(07:33):
don't know if I knew who Mark Rufflo was before
I saw this movie. Well when did you first see
I'm pretty sure I watched it with a group of
girls sometime in my junior year of high school. I think,
so pretty young, pretty impressionable, kind of like UK like
couldn't fully relate to it, but like like the few

(07:56):
lines in this movie that everyone says all the time,
I was like, because this was like, this is such
an interesting example of like manic Pixie dream girl being
commented upon before that term was even in the world,
and I was worried about that going into this view
because I've seen it. I think again in college. Maybe
one out of This is probably the fourth or fifth

(08:18):
time I was watching it ever, and I was thinking
about it because I saw you last week and you
were you were like, I watched the movie and then
I wanted the commentary. I was like, wow, I need
to like revisit it, and I was worried about how
it would hold up. But all the like red flags
I wrote down in the first half of the movie
are commented on and resolved by the end of the movie,

(08:41):
and I was it just feels good to like a
movie still and not be like, well, this one goes
back in the trash, even though it made me weep
as a teenager. I was sobbing last night. Yeah, it's
so sad. It just it really captures like true human ocean.
And I don't know what the red flags are you're

(09:03):
talking about. I didn't really think about it that way,
but I think that the fact that they get resolved
is like a sign of the movie being able to
talk about how complex humans are and how we can
be shitty, shitty people and then very loving and caring
people at the same time. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, And usually

(09:24):
with like those stock characters, they don't exist to be
complex they exist to advance the right narrative. For I
don't know Orlando Bloom right, who was Elizabeth Sound? Orlando
Bloom was absolutely my major crush when I was like,

(09:46):
and he wasn't really anything before The Lord of the Rings,
but after Yes to the Caribbean. Yeah, I found um.
When I was home this past week, I found my
old dance bag and zip in the front pocket was
a picture I had torn out of a magazine of
Legois like arching and I was like, whoa weird horny

(10:08):
kid thing to do? Yeah, I didn't. I don't even
remember having a crush on Orlando Bloom as Lego less,
but apparently I did. You had to. Yeah, Um, I
first saw this movie. It came on two thousan four.
I don't think I saw it right away in theaters,
but I think I saw it probably a year or
two after that. I well, this has a lot to

(10:30):
do with me being emotionally dead inside, but this have
you been in a long term relationship? I sure have not,
so that also might have something to do with interesting
because that's what I was thinking about this morning. I
was like, I wonder if that changes people's perception of
the movie. Yeah, Although I do think it does a

(10:51):
good job of representing all the intricacies of a relationship
in a way that a lot of movies don't bother too.
And that's like one of the things I want to
talk about when we get into the discussion. But yeah,
I I still as someone who exists in the world
and has like friendships and meaningful relationships outside of romantic questionships,
I still can understand and appreciate like all of the

(11:15):
intricacies that this movie delves into when it comes to
a relationship. And then Jamie to piggyback off what you
were saying, where you're like, oh, it's still nice to
be able to like a movie because we've done just
after doing podcasts for a year and a half. Now, yeah,
it's really Yeah the podcast basically, I when the Avy

(11:37):
Club wrote that sorry to keep bringing it up, but
the like over the past eighteen months and then sort
of said that we've grown as people. I was like,
that's not true. We haven't grown as plain you know,
we are even probably worse than we were before. But yep,
that's going to be like speak to yourself for that's
like Nope, but the record show I have gotten worse

(11:59):
and will continue to. Well, I've been wanting to bring
this up every now and then, but like I've listened
to our first probably like twelve episodes are so recently
people knew the cast, listen to them all. But also
like we've our voices have definitely grown and we've done
a lot better when it comes to like critically analyzing movies.

(12:23):
I watch all the movies. Now you watch them all.
That's good. Yeah, I feel like in the first few
episodes I just had like really flimsy arguments about everything,
and I think we hated women when we started the
podcast is the problem, but we like them. Wow that
you guys have grown, you haven't get worse. It actually
get start as an alright podcast and now podcast. Yeah,

(12:48):
this movie in particular seems to be a very personal
experience for everyone who like everyone watches this movie a
slightly different way. I feel like, and if you have
a specific experience of it, feel free to last note.
But like, I'm pretty sure every time I've seen this movie,
I've been thinking about a different person. Where it's so
easy to project yourself onto these characters, which is like

(13:11):
what a lot of good movies and bad movies are
enable you to do. But like, yeah, like I think
I was like thinking of a different person this time
watching it than I was the last time I was
watching it, and my experience of it changed a little bit,
and like different parts hit for me in different ways,
and oh, it's just really good. It is I would say,
it holds up and it has a really good script.

(13:32):
I would know this as someone who does have a
master's screen screenwriting from Boston University. I don't like to
bring it up, but uh, this is this is our
first on the list of people who our listeners are
always like, what about this one? That's my impression from
I care, but it is our first Charlie Kaufman joint yeah,

(13:54):
that we've done and directed by Michelle Country, who is
not Spiked John, which is who I thought this movie
was directed by. Which also Michelle Gondry has a music
video that I don't know if you guys have seen it,
which is like one of my favorite music videos of
all time, and it's very similar in aesthetic to this movie.

(14:16):
It's the Chemical Brothers Let Forever Be. The music video
is like a dreamlike dance song and it uses in
the same way this movie does that uses like practical
effects as well as like editing tricks, and I just
see that music video and I'm like, yeah, of course
this is this is the only person who could execute
this movie properly. Yeah. The look of this movie, I mean,

(14:39):
and we don't get into this too much on our podcast,
but like the way this movie shot is crazy. It's
like so so so it's the most amazing. It's just
such incredible filmwork and just seeing because you're kind of
it's kind of like watching magic because they'll do like
one shots and Jim Carey will be like in one
place and then another place, where like Kate Winslett will

(14:59):
be a one place and then another place, but all
in the same shot. And it's because they're like diving
through holes and like getting up or like changing their
outfit and moving places and being themselves at a different
time within like a span of three seconds. And it's
so it just like it really gives you this like
very realistic, like scary movie type shock value. I was

(15:23):
gonna say, there's like there's a lot of imagery in
this movie that you could easily find in a horror movie,
like would not be out of place at all, Right,
And it's so interesting because it uses it's almost like
it uses like art house kind of stuff, scary film stuff,
and then drama and comedy and like Flapstick. It just
uses a large variety of genres and it just melts

(15:47):
them all together in such a wonderful it's also good.
It's perfect. Well, I have some notes, but before we
get um, before we get to those, shall we do
the recap? Okay? So, internal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
is about the relationship between Joel played by Jim Carey

(16:08):
and Clementine played by Kate Winslett. They meet, presumably on
a train, and then we cut kind of further into
their relationships, sort of as they're breaking up. And then
immediately after they've broken up, and they both decide to
get this procedure by which they erase their memories of
each other. So they basically will go through this procedure

(16:30):
and then they come out on either side. She gets
at first, he finds out she's getting it, and he's like,
I'll show you, and then he's like, I'm going to
win the break gap um, which, like fair have tried
to do that a bunch of times. So she erases
her memory of him first, and then he's like, Okay,
well I'm going to undergo this procedure now. As well
as he's undergoing it. During the procedure, he's reliving all

(16:52):
these memories and he decides that he actually doesn't want
to forget about her, and he decides that he's going
to try to like call it off. But this proves
to be difficult because he is unconscious and there's really
no way to do that. Mark and his underwear dancing dancing.
I mean, that just feels important to mention that Mark

(17:12):
Ruffo is in his underwear and he does have really
nice legs. You see also a little bit of his butt,
you do. I mean, the cinematography is fine, but Mark
rufflos but really stole the show for me. But work
is incredible. I've honestly never seen better. But where but
Work you can see in a horror movie and it

(17:33):
wouldn't be out of place exactly. It's a great But
it's a great Mark Rufflo is so handsome, it's just crazy,
like and I was like, I like I had my
teenage crush all over again. Yeah. Elijah Woods in it,
he looks like shit. Also, he's very creepy. He Yeah,
he's creepy and he looks fourteen. Yeah, that's my critique.

(17:55):
So that all of these characters are in the movie
because they're the ones who are executing this procedure. So
like Mark Ruffalo is the head technician, Elijah Wood is there,
Kirston Dunce shows up eventually, I wasn't clear in what
her job would she like the receptionist. So Joel has
decided that he is gonna try to basically stop this

(18:15):
procedure from happening so that he does end up remembering Clementine.
So he's basically taking her and they're like trying to
run away from the like deletion of his memories. He
tries to like hide her in his subconscious. Basically they
try to sort of like create new memories to start
her into so that they can't find her to delete them. Um,

(18:39):
so they're doing all this stuff. Meanwhile, like Mark Ruffalo
and all those guys are like, WHOA, something's happening. This
isn't working, Like he's like reliving memories that were already deleted.
So they call in the doctor named Howard played by
Tom Wilkinson, one of my favorite character actors. So the
doctor shows up and Kirston Dunce is like, oh, how

(18:59):
are I have a crush on you? And we find
out they have a romantic history and then she forgot
that and I was like, I've forgotten that too, So
she we find out had her memories of him erased.
And then when she discovers this, she is very upset
and she decides to basically reveal to all the customers

(19:19):
of this mind eraser company, like basically what happened. So
the procedure for Joel ends up actually working, like all
of his memories of Clementine are erased. But they meet
again because there is a small like fragment of her
memory where she's like, meet me in Montalk, and then he,
like on a whim, decides to go to Montalk, and

(19:40):
then they meet on the train, which is the opening
sequence of the movie, and they're like, wait, that wasn't
them meeting for the first time. That was them re
meeting and our minds explode. But then they immediately discover
that they already had a history, that they had already
been together because they get the correspondence from Kirsten Dunce's character.

(20:03):
It says like, here's all the information about your partner
that you had erased, and then they decide, oh, even
though we like maybe weren't that good for each other
or we were unhappy that go around, let's try it again.
But they don't explicitly say that. Yeah, they just basically
say like, Okay, yeah, you don't know what's going to happen.

(20:24):
I know, And that, I think is what makes me
so sad at the end. It's just because that's like
you just don't know. It's very It's like I think
like living in that space is like like sad and terrifying,
but also like really beautiful at the same time. So
it's like obviously I'm going to cry that scene. Yeah,
that scene really fun. Yeah, they're like they're like laughing

(20:47):
and they're like happy and excited while also being like scared.
Just a very interesting place to end it in. Yeah,
for sure. It's a very like non Hollywood ending, right
because Hollywood movies would be like they are definitely back
together in this time worked like this is like we
don't know and neither do you. But thankfully it's also

(21:08):
not like just like a sad super realistic ending, which
is like we would know they don't make it, which
I'm also happy you don't have like you would think
Charlie Coffman would be a pessimist enough to like end
it that way, be interested in like, yeah, what passed
drafts of it? Or if it's like ever at any
point and differently, I don't know, but I think that

(21:29):
that's like the ending is why people are so easily
able to project themselves into the movie, because it's like
you just don't yeah know, like you can watch that
movie and still be in a relationship and be like
it's us, or you can be out of relationship like
it's us. Like there's just so many different ways to
to come at it and oh it's so good, all right?

(21:50):
That there it is? That is it? Jamie? You mentioned
the manic Pixie dreamgirl trope, which I definitely I don't
remember Clementine's character being that, but like when I was
rewatching it, yeah for sure. I well, I had seen
this movie like once and then I light did enough
to buy it on DVD and then never rewatched it

(22:12):
until like yesterday, So I didn't remember that that was
like a component of her character. And I started watching,
I was like, oh no, like this the first couple
of scenes, You're like Oh no, it like really punches
you in the face with it. Can I can I
give the official definition of MANI I was just looking
a up. Yeah, it's a Nathan Raven great writer two

(22:34):
thousand seven. He originated the term in a review for
Elizabethtowns Kursten Dunns Kurston Dunz character. Uh and then the
world never onside. But it defines a character as a bubbly, shallow,
cinematic creature that exists solely in the fevered imaginations of
sensitive writer directors to teach broodingly soulful young men to
embrace life and its infinite mysteries and adventures. Basically, she's

(22:57):
cute and she fixes him so when school, and he
even directly says that towards the end of the movie
when they're in the bookstore Barnes and Noble. Yeah, they're
at Barnes and Noble and they're kind of just like
coming to except that he's not going to remember her,
and he's like, I even thought you were going to
fix me. Here I still thought you were. But she
says specifically, men all think that I'm going to fix you.

(23:21):
So he really comments on it in that scene heavily
before this term was even a thing. It's so yeah,
it's like so interesting and cool that that that the
movie does make so many comments on a term that
had not quite fully become a part of popular conscious
at least. But there's yeah, there's that line where and

(23:41):
she ends up saying it. I think it almost three
different points in the movie, because you can tell it's
just like a line she has in the back room,
right yeah. Or she's like, I'm not a concept. Too
many guys think I'm a concept or I complete them
or I'm going to make them alive. But I'm just
a fucked up girl looking for my own peace of
mind and I kind of hate that, but whatever, don't
assign me yours. And then we're like yeah, screen and
then crashed through the ceiling. But yeah, I mean the

(24:04):
first thing we see Clementine in she's sort of got
that manic pixie vibe to her where she's got weird
hair and she's like, Hi, who are you? Unremarkable man,
I'm amazing, And she talks really fast and she like it,
gets very intimate with him very quickly. Yeah, and he's
clearly very uncomfortable. And then we found out later that

(24:28):
that's because there's something in the back of her mind
that knows him, and so there is a motivated reason
for him to go up to him that those characters
normally wouldn't have. And then we also find out all
this stuff about her that is like, okay, like we
we know people in our lives and like I you know,
like maybe even have elements of it ourselves. That the

(24:49):
manic pixie thing is like a total front to hide
uh issues you have, right, And so for Clementine it
comes up she like drinks too much but tries to
make it look cute. Been there she like there's like
a bunch of different stuff where she's like super flaky,
she's super impulsive, but she's like it's because I'm cute,

(25:09):
and it's that's just that's me. And she's also like
clearly very loving, but also has like a temper too,
because it seems like she like blows up a lot
off of like little things that should maybe be talked about.
And then his character is messed up because he'll always
be like I don't want to talk about it. I
don't want to talk about it. I don't want to
talk about it. And I see that I'm like, yes,

(25:31):
I'm both of those people well, and then and Joel too.
It's like where they are both like fundamentally good people, right,
Like they're not bad people, but there's so much that's
wrong with both of them that you're just like a,
it's it's normal people, where like Joel is critical of her,
and the things he's critical of are valid, but the

(25:55):
way he's expressing it is so annoying and biting and
like hass of aggressive. Yeah, you're like, yeah, I would
probably run out of that. Yeah, And it's like she's
it's partially because he's right, but it's mostly because he's
just like, like it makes me so clearly also has
like a nice guy complex about him, which again is

(26:15):
addressing that first scene where she's like why do you
keep saying nice? Why? And it's clear that he thinks
he's being a good guy when he's like just being
a guy. Well, That's why I'm prepared to argue that
even though she comes off, especially in those first couple
of scenes, as like the manic pixie dreamgirl type, the

(26:36):
thing with that trope is that that type of character,
that archetype, is often not developed any bit beyond that,
So it's just like very surface level, like yeah, but
like she presents that way at least at first, but
I feel like we get to know her so well
and her character so well developed that I think that
she has the persona. But then it drops like, like

(26:59):
I have no criticism of it that you would have
with a normal manic pixie dream girl character, because normally,
if you remove that facade from that character, there's nothing
left because that character exists to advance the male's agenda
or the you know, like if we're using elizabeth Town,
like Christian Dunst is like like I think like a

(27:19):
stewardess or something who's like, Hi, I'm quirky, what's your problem? Um,
let me help. I'm going to coit my job and
I have nice hair and my teeth are a little crooked. Well,
your dad died. I've got it, you know, And it's
like she doesn't exist outside of but it's like a
very one dimensional portrayal. What's so funny about the fact

(27:40):
that Kate Winslet's character is not a manic pixie dream
girl is that she is actually literally of the movie
in someone's dreams or memories or fantas. Yeah, so it's
interesting that, um, that's the situation that it's within. It's
interesting because it's like the element that we get to

(28:01):
know inside of her head that's not even her really
his reception of her. Yeah, but this was in the
commentary from Michelle Gondry or Charlie Kaufman, I don't remember which. Oh,
it's Michelle Gundry talking about it, because he talks about
how I think they're like kind of having an argument
over like it being essentially Jim Carrey's perspective of her,

(28:23):
and it's like not technically her exactly. And then Michelle
is like, oh, well, I remember when my dad died.
I would have conversations with him in my dreams and
it wasn't like I was making this person up. This
was my dad. And it's like I know my dad
well enough that it can actually create a really like
vivid picture. And he was like speaking through Michelle essentially.

(28:48):
I thought that was a really interesting thing to say. Well. Also,
like with Joel, he in the story is generally a
pretty reliable narrator, So if he was presented as a
character in the story who wasn't as reliable, we would
maybe question his perception of Clementine a little bit more.
But because he the story depicts him as being like

(29:10):
the quote reliable narrator type, then I think we can
trust him enough and his perception of her enough that
what we see of her in his memory is generally
pretty true to who she is, so that that would
have bothered me if he had a very skewed perception
of her, and that even of how he was speaking
about things or something, and he always seemed like the

(29:32):
good guy right exactly. But he Yeah, his memories are
pretty objective in the sense that he's remembering him being
shitty as well as her being shitty, and then also
being loving and good to each other. So if it
had been a little bit different, we wouldn't have been
able to trust him as much, and then his perception
of her would not be reliable. I think, yeah, So

(29:55):
I like how the movie handles that, and I think
that just also speaks to like I was saying before,
how both of these characters are so well developed and
don't rely on this like stock one dimensional like man
pixie dreamgirl type that doesn't get developed any bit beyond

(30:15):
that because like so few movies that like ones that
we've talked about, even don't bother to develop their characters
well enough that we would understand why two people would
be together. So yeah, like a lot of movies that
we've talked about depict like a hetero romantic relationship in
a way that we're like, well, why do they even

(30:36):
like each other? Like what's compatible about them? And I
think that's usually a result of the female character being
so underdeveloped that we have no idea why they would
like each other, or why like the guy would like
her or anything like that. For example, like movies that
we've done so far in the podcast, Twilight actually kind
of Almond, Okay, don't I'm getting um love Actually, the

(30:59):
Princess Brod the Holiday, Uh, this happens. I feel like
in Blade Runner, The Mummy, our favorite movie, Gli a Julie,
they're perfect for each other, they're terrible. So that's a
common trend in movies. Or if a movie does take
the time to develop its female characters a little bit,

(31:20):
the movie will often still force the woman to end
up with a man who has either lied to her,
manipulated her, or done something else that's otherwise extremely shitty
that should be grounds for dismissal, but instead she's like,
but we're going to end up together at the end
and have a little kiss um. For example, this happens
in I Love a Little kids Um Hate the slur Um.

(31:48):
This happens in She's All That Ghostbusters Groundhog Day. Like
the movies will put them together at the end, even
though we as the audience don't necessarily understand why this
would be. As long as you think about it for
like two seconds, you're like, oh wait, why is she
picking him again? Like why are they end up ending
up together? Because he was very bad to her throughout

(32:10):
the entire course of the movie. But this movie, Eternal Sunshine,
I think does a really good job developing both characters
and exploring, like I said, the intricacies of a romantic
relationship in a way that most movies don't bother at all.
So I appreciated that about the movie. Another thing that
to me about Clem's character, and I guess like would

(32:30):
have about Joel if we saw him in another relationship
where something we haven't gotten into it all yet is
a little little Elijah Wood, the sneak, who is whose
character I almost totally forgot about in like the because
I haven't seen it in maybe three years or so,
but who has. And I think this is like a

(32:51):
commentary of some sort on how men view women, because
that's something I think Charlie Kaufman is really good at,
Like he can write a female character, which a lot
of male screen orders absolutely cannot do. But he's but
like his like real strength is like writing about how
men view women wrongly a lot of the time. And
so like Elijah's character, Let's call him Little Patrick because

(33:14):
he's he's a little pot little photo and is the
precious she is the ring. Let me put it in
some terms you nerds can understand, for Rhoda wants the ring,
but the ring is does not need a man. Sorry,

(33:34):
Eternal Sunshine isn't like a twelve part series that's just
going to continue on. Oh god, it's just like you
need a different co host. So we're to believe that
Joel gets his procedure done the week after Clementine has

(33:55):
hers done, and it was all the same people basically
who did the same thing to Clem the week before,
and we don't find out the way that information is
revealed as also very well done. Of like we see
her like not recognized Joel after her memory has been wiped,
and then she says, hi Patrick, baby boy, and then
goes to kiss question Mark actually Elisha Wood because he
saw Kate Winslett unconscious and was like all in love

(34:20):
with her right right, which is fucked up right there.
It's crazy and it's like, oh, you know, a man
projecting whatever the funk he wants on to someone he
doesn't know while literally erasing her memory. Fucked, it's bucked,
and then steals her underwear just a good measure, steals
her underwear and then steals all the mementos that Joel

(34:44):
had bought for her as gifts, yeah, and just even
just mementos of their relationship, and starts stealing his history
with Clementine and essentially bringing this into his relationship with
Clementine basically because he thinks it will win her over. Yeah, exactly,
which in a in a different movie, that would make
her be won over by him because women aren't complex, right,

(35:09):
because men be manipulating women in movies. And usually it's
okay because she'll still decide to end up with him.
But great thing about this movie is that does not happen. No,
And then like the whole thing you can tell feels
very off to her and then she's just like I
have to go like and it's great, but yeah, I
feel like of all the male characters and it is
mostly male characters in this movie, Patrick is like the

(35:33):
most obviously flawed, and it's also explained why he's that way,
which I would hope that like Little Dweeby dudes Allah,
Elijah Wood would see that and be like, oh, that
is a flawed way of thinking, because he says a
few different times to Mark Gruffalo parenthes hot guff is
like the moral like he's like the moral standard in

(35:55):
a way too. He comes out on top because I
forgot I forgot out if he was lying to Chris
and Dunson. At the end you're like he wasn't. Yeah,
he's a good guy now, and then I was like,
thank god, now I feel good about right. But Elijah
Woods character like keep saying to Mark Ruffalo, He's like, well,

(36:16):
you know, I'm like not really good with ladies, and
so he does that thing that like nerdy characters in
eighties movies would do, which is like, I'm not good
with ladies, so instead I have to trick one into
liking right, And we see that go horrendously wrong in
this movie, which normally we wouldn't good job movie. You

(36:38):
did the damn thing another thing I wanted to talk about.
And I don't know if this has any legitimacy at all,
so ready watch out for something that might be complete
and utter bullshit. But one of the scenes that I
really liked happens pretty early on. Joel and Clementine are
in bed together. She is drinking out of a with

(37:00):
her own face on it. She's saying something like, you
don't tell me anything, like I share everything with you.
I want to know you. People have to share things.
That's what intimacy is, and he's just all like, well,
you just talked too much. I don't know if there's
like active commentary being made on this or not, or
if this is just sort of my interpretation of it,

(37:21):
but I feel like that scene shows a lot of
like the emotional labor that, especially in hetero relationships, that
women often tend to have to do and to deal
with because men are conditioned to repress their emotions, women
are conditioned to be more emotionally nurturing. So she's over

(37:41):
there being like, oh, like we need to talk, like
you need to tell me things and he's like, no,
I don't want to. And I feel like men tend
to perceive interactions like that is women being naggy, but
in this scene, like I'm totally on her side, where
I'm just like, yeah, you, like you have to share
things about yourself, like you have to be a emotionally
open and vulnerable or also relationship is ever going to work.

(38:03):
And he's so passive. He's I wrote it down because
I was like, and I could hear an ex boyfriend
of mine saying that to me, you know, constantly talking
isn't necessarily communicating Comma Jamie period. And I was like,
that's like what he says, and you're just like, fuck you.
But it also portrays the complexity of a relationship to

(38:23):
with like what's happening verbally and like physically, because she's
like being really intimate and like kissing his cheek and
hugging him and touching him, and then he says that
really mean thing and she continues and then it like
kind of sets in and then she gets really piste
off and like turns away. But then now he's like, oh,
she's gone, and so he tries to kiss her and

(38:44):
hold her and like nuzzle her and she goes away.
And I think that that's a scene that really sticks
in the brain too, because it's not only what's happening
emotionally and verbally, it's like also like physics, like their
physical touch of the body language. Yeah, yeah, mimics what's
going on there? Yeah. Yeah, So that scene stuck with

(39:05):
me is being like, oh, like, look at all the
emotional heavy lifting that women often tend to have to
do in heter relationships. I don't know if that gets
like commented on that much in media and stuff like that,
because women like usually a portrayal like that in a
movie would be like, look, how naggy she is, right,

(39:25):
I think what you see over and over and it's
it's typically like the reason for their conflict and you're like,
you guys should really go to a couple of therapy.
I think you can make it work. You guys just
really needed to learn how to work through community. But
seeing like how they are in the flea market as well,
it's like she says something, he says something really shitty
to her about like not being ready to be a mother,

(39:45):
and she's like, yes, I can be a mother, Like
I'm ready to be a mother, and then they have
this whole blowout and he's just like, I don't want
to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it.
I don't want to talk about it, and she's trying
to talk about it. So I think it's like a
it's definitely a pattern that keeps happening in this film,
specifically of she's trying to unpack the mean things that
he's saying to her and he's unwilling to do it,

(40:06):
but then that causes her to freak out because what
you're supposed to do. You're like, it's not being gas lit,
but it is being like shut down. You're like, you
just said something horrible to me, and now I can't
confront this thing. So then you start to feel like crazy,
like you're trapped inside of your own head. Right, But
we also know it's weird because this relationship is so

(40:29):
fascinating and like familiar feelings, Like we objectively know why
he's saying what he's saying, right, because she's like an
alcoholic clear, but he won't just say that, right, And
it's like, well, if you not confront but like sort
of like talk about this in a controlled setting where
you're being honest with each other, then you can address like, Okay,
she's got a problem. How can we fix this instead

(40:52):
of just being like you can't be a mother? And like,
so we know why he's saying what he's saying. It's
not again, in a lot of movies that aren't this
well thought out, it's just why is he so mean?
Like why is he saying It's like, Okay, yeah, he's
frustrated because she's an alcoholic. Yeah, he won't say anything.
And you can tell because this movie does such a
good job of like building up the subtlety of resentments.

(41:13):
And the reason resentments are built up is because of
no one's like communicating what they're feeling, and so it
comes up in like these terrible, terrible moments. And do
you think that's why maybe like as he's reliving these
memories and like sort of like reseeing how he handled them,
and maybe that's why he's like, wait, I don't want
to forget these, like I want a chance to almost

(41:34):
redo this. Well, I think that's what's so interesting about
this movie is because it's like it's essentially commenting on
the fact that it's like you shouldn't erase your history
because mistakes are made. Like, even if this relationship does
end and it fucking sucks and it's like the worst
you have a whole year of like torture after the
end of this relationship. It's like you learn from that,

(41:55):
and if you're just erasing it, you're just going to
keep reliving it over and over again. Yeah, and he's
clearly and I think what's so beautiful. I mean, something
I specifically love about this movie is how they comment.
I just find this to be so insanely good. Is
that they comment on what's happening in front of them

(42:16):
while also living in the moment. And have you guys
seen Fleabag that TV show, so you know how she
turned to the like chewing gum. They'll like turn to
the camera and talk to the camera, and that's how
you get their internal monologue. Whereas this film does something
I don't think I've seen in anything else ever. Also,
I'm thinking of the TV show Unfabulous. I loved that

(42:38):
show at an age where I should not have loved
that show. It was really at It's so good though. Yeah,
but she'll like live out her fantasies and then pop
back into reality, and that happens in so many things,
but in this movie you'll see them happening simultaneously within
like the same breath or with like in like one

(43:01):
shot within a conversation between the two people. So seeing
someone commenting on what's happening in front of them, yeah,
like in real time, in real time is a really
insane thing to see. And it's like it's like, yeah,
and you're you're watching someone learn as you're seeing it
for the first time. It's I don't know. Yeah. The

(43:24):
last thing I want to say about Clement Tank, because
we haven't even started talking about Marryott, right, is we
see that and we see this with Joel two, but
more so with Clem because we see how she acts
with sneaky little Patrick. Um is that for her the
same like most of us, the same insecurities pop up

(43:45):
in every relationship. And it's like sort of a variation
on a theme where there's that scene like is so
beautiful but also really breaks her heart where she's like,
I never felt pretty, I never felt like I was
pretty enough of the blow because an insecurity. So many
women have UM that starts when they're very young, and
we see that scene that is like very beautiful and sweet,

(44:06):
where like joels like you are a pretty well one
and gives her what she needs in that moment, and
then we see that same refrain repeat itself when she's
with Patrick, she calls him out of nowhere and it's like,
am I ugly? Yeah? I have certainly done, and like
like like, hold on, I just had a thought. I'm awful. Wait,

(44:26):
you're also caught. You're calling attention to something too that
I didn't even connect. But it's like that is a
core issue of Joe and her relationship, which is that
she uses her sexuality to gain attention and to make friends.
Is essentially what he says, like, she'll like dangle like
the thought of sex in front of people to like

(44:48):
make friends, and that is like, obviously it's a very
feminine struggle like that, Like every single woman who listens
to this is going to be like, yes, there have
been friends where a guy was my friend. I didn't
want to date them, and then they sat being my
friend and then you're like, oh, the only reason men
want to be my friend is because there's the potential

(45:09):
for me to kiss them but them Oh wow, pussy taga, Yes,
pussy Taga Queen but yeah, that's definitely like the being pretty,
being pretty, being fuckable. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's like
that role, like feeling like you need to occupy that role. Fortunately,

(45:30):
like some men are able to be your friend, but
a lot of men, especially like kind of kind of aren't.
Like I've had friendships that I assumed were friendships that
once it was like I don't know, once I made
it myself clear of like, oh no, that's not what
I'm looking for here, they sort of disappear. You're just

(45:53):
like or you see a girlfriend of yours who's like,
you can tell they're not being clear about a relationship
because they like this relationship hip and they're scared that
if they say something about it, that friendship, which is
such an unfair burdens and it's so many people have
to deal with exactly, And it's very cool that this
movie is essentially is like kind of delving into that
in a very very subtle way. Yeah, it's like it's

(46:16):
a it's it's not even a character flaw on Clementine's part,
just like a very recognizable quality that's like, Okay, what
you're doing is not the right thing to be doing.
But I understand why you're doing it and it's sort
of put upon you in this very complex way. What
a GORERD character. Let's talk about Mary. Yeah, I have
a question about Mary. Actually, so something about So my

(46:41):
question about Mary is sorry writing is titled down because
there needs to be. Hey, Hollywood, here's my pitch for
a question about Mary. Um. Okay, we learned that she
and Howard the doctor had a romantic Howard not Howard
how Are the doctor whose last name I simply don't

(47:02):
know how to pronounce. Um okay, So honestly, I personally
feel like I'm on a first name basis with all
of these characters. Okay, Howard how and Howard how to kistory,
she chose to have all of her memories of him

(47:24):
a race? Okay, but so that happens, But then how
would that work? Because she works for him, he is
essentially her boss, but all the memories of him she
would have had to have a race, so like all
of her working knowledge would also have had to have
been raised because they work together. So basically, did she
have to relearn her job from scratch? I mean, I

(47:46):
personally think asking questions like this will break the movie
down a little bit because I also just think about,
like the guy calls it like brain damage essentially, but
I do think about that. I'm like, this would never work.
There's no like, once you really start to think about
how this would work, it just can't because you're just
gonna have random gaps and you're just missing very important

(48:10):
pieces of but questions. You would have this memory of
working there only when he's not there, which was you
would think, would leave huge gaps in her memory of
how to do her job. Also, like other people would, Yeah,
Mark Ruffalo, he'd be like, this seems really messed up,

(48:30):
Like why is this? Yeah, you're I think you're very right.
I think she probably a question. Yeah, she must have
gotten everything erased and then they just had to retrain
her on her job, be like this is your first day. Meanwhile,
she's actually been there for like two years. Where I
let the movie gas light me a little bit on
that one the same because the second you find out

(48:53):
in that scene where is one of the only scenes
where two women appear in the same scene where Kristen
Dunce is chase Howard's wife's car because she sees them together.
She knows they've been together. We don't know that yet,
and then Mark Ruffalo leans on the horn to be like, yikes, boss,
get out of there. But then I'm like, oh, well,

(49:14):
then he would have to know. He would have to
know there's no way, no, he he must know his
wife obviously, but then he saw them kissing. But then
if he's worked there for so long and she's worked there,
he and Elijah Wood would have to know, like there's
no because everyone gets some letters, and who would have

(49:36):
done because he's the main technician. Yeah, I feel like
Howard would have been able to kind of like he
could get around. Yeah, I get around some of the
normal stuff. That's true. Maybe this is this a good
point to bring up in a SMR video? I really like,
is there any good point there? Excuse you? There's a
great a SMR Requests video. She's one of my favorite

(49:59):
A smartists. That is a role play of you getting
your brain wiped by this company. It is like one
of the coolest, one of my favorite a SMR videos ever.
It's just well done a SMR but it's called remember
It's Okay to forget Memory eraser roleplay that has a
ton of I think the last time I watched Eternal
Sunshine was because I just watched this a SMR video.

(50:20):
She's clearly one of her favorite movies. And she wipes
your memories. You've in theory brought all these and she
has all these objects that she taps on. It's an
a SMR video and she's like, this is your excess
coffee mug and then she taps on it for like
four minutes and it's a really good one. That's great. Yeah,
great theme, strong brand. I love that. Oh. I wanted

(50:41):
to also how you said how Mary chose to have
this procedure done. I do also feel like when you
finally do listen to Mary's tape, Mary listening to her
own tape, She's like, I can't do this and she
starts crying. Also a moment where I'm like, God, what
a great actress. Um Chris and Dons underappreciated. He's incredible

(51:01):
in this is great. We've yeah, wow, se Spiderman two,
Margot season three, She's a gift. But yeah, I have
found you only hear a very short snippet and she
starts kind of like being like you can't do this
and starts breaking down, and You're like, this is clearly
a coercive situation that she was like really didn't want

(51:24):
to actually do, but because she's younger and so in
love with this doctor, she lets it happen to herself.
And I find that to be like heartbreaking, lay sad,
and that's so common in that scenario where like she's
his subordinate. Yeah, it's power much older. Yeah. Yeah, and
he's doing it. I'm sure to take herself marriage, yeah, exactly,

(51:48):
because his wife knows about this affair, and it seems
like and this is getting several layers deeper than the movie,
you know, has time to explain. But probably they're like, well,
here's how we'll fix it for our marriage is we'll
just have this young woman that'll help. I totally, I

(52:10):
totally forgot about that large And then it's her action
that prompts the end of the movie, which is she
goes full of sage. Yeah, she's a leaker. She's a leaker.
She's a little snug. Well look out, Chris. She pulls
out the tampacs and elite. She's free blading information kind

(52:34):
of free bleeding data. Right now, there's wat me hold
on too. Let's not forget about free bleading. Coming back
for a second. I think so I think I misunderstood.
She doesn't choose to have this procedure done. He kind
of does it. I think she I think she said, yeah,

(52:57):
she says yes to it, but I think it's just
a coercive Okay, I didn't pick up what it's. That's
what it seems like, But there's really only a snippet
where she's she's like, we agreed to it, blah blah blah,
and he says like, you know, we agreed to this,
and she's like, I can't. She breaks down crying, and
you're like, yeah, she doesn't really want to do this,
but he's essentially because you you have to if you

(53:17):
want to. I mean, and it might even be like
if you want to continue working here, because it sounds like,
because we find out about her, she's also, in addition
to like having a crush on this man, she's also
very interested in the work they're doing. So it sounds
like she probably wanted to stay working there. It sounds
like she had greater aspirations and that the field blah
blah blah. Yeah, it's a very complicated situation when you

(53:40):
think about it. It's kind of like when I was
in college and and uh, handsome Dan was my supervisor
and my crush, but also I really loved public Radio,
but also I mostly wanted to just be around handsome Dan. Yeah.
Also it never happened. I'm so sorry, Thank you so much.
I we don't spend that much time with Mary, but

(54:02):
I think that she is similarly an interesting and well
developed character as Clementine. Like I said, we don't we
don't see as much of her, and we don't get
to know her nearly as well, But I think the
movie does take enough care with her to like to
just develop her beyond like a very one dimensional. Yeah.
You even see her in multiple environments where she's like

(54:24):
really buttoned up, and they do a really good job
of like very subtle. Oh my god, there's so many
like little detail things that I was picking up on
this last watch. But it's like there's a lot of
just very like subtle things that she does. You see
her buttoned up in the office environment, and her like
kind of hovering over the doctor, and like anytime he
touches her shoulder, she like really leans into it. And

(54:45):
then when she's hanging out with Mark Ruffalo, she's like
looks kind of like rocker chic and she's like drinking
and really hanging out and so and but then you
also like hear her like trying to develop her mind.
And she's very passionate about this work. So she loves quote. Yeah,
she loves quote. Such a twenty one year old girl
thing to be like, I've got quotes. Tumbler, she's got

(55:09):
a tumbler. Pinterest, she's got it, she's pinning, She's totally
she's free blading. Yeah, her character is very interesting. The
last thing, oh, this is the last thing that it's acknowledged.
I just sort of kissed the mic a little bit

(55:31):
gross is the mind funk of when like Clementine was
sort of playing Joel's mom and then was in a
memory like a friend her mom, Mom, you still want
to suck me? Right? It was like just a fun
mommy issue moment. Yeah, she does flash her underwear, um,
which I'm not totally sure how I feel about that.

(55:54):
I did motivated, and but it's also like, yeah, there
are definitely moments like that in the film where you're like, oh,
that's a little well, there's a moment where Clementine calls
Joel a homophobic slur. Good not good, But also it
was two. Yeah, there's things have changed, one of the

(56:16):
few moments that does not hold up. Similarly, later on
in the movie, Joel is explaining to Clementine. He's telling her, oh,
I'm living with someone else, and she asks, oh, male
or female, and he goes female, female, Like how dare
you assume that I might be living and cohabitating romantically
with a man, which also doesn't hold up the classics honestly.

(56:41):
So here's what I think, though, is like, I think
that does hold up. Not that it's like good, but
it is like that is how people. It is representative
of the I think those people still yeah, a sort
of representative of the character yea as well, where he
is uptight, not accepting of new things or people and

(57:05):
sort of like I could ease. I mean, and it's
not explored in anyway, but it's like I could see
this guy in two thousand three being homophobic, Yeah, you know,
at least casually homeless. Yeah, yeah, not even like in
an overway. I just think I think those are things
where it's like, those are just accurate depictions of how
people can view the world and themselves, and that's like

(57:29):
a natural reaction. Yeah, people will still to this day
say the R word. But sometimes they'll comment on it
and be like, oh my god, what I say that.
But it's just like like you grow up in the times,
you grow up and it's hard to let grow of
certain things. Yeah, we all have a lot of work
to do, and that's true. Fine lards, this movie hold
up for me, I agree. Yeah, it's note a movie

(57:51):
that necessarily you watch and you're like, wow, this movie
is so empowering for women because it's not written by
a woman. It's not direc to buy a woman. One
of the main characters as a woman, but she's like
the secondary character, also very white, very straight worth right,
as most movies are. Yeah, but it is seen through
the eyes of a man, and so you can't really

(58:15):
it's like seen through this lens. So you're like, well,
if it has to be empowering to women, then you're
kind of that's not the purpose of it. Essentially, it's
just to like help an neurotic man. Well if we're
if yeah, I mean if that way, it's just sort
of the Outour problem that we come up against a

(58:35):
time and time again is that we can't necessarily knock
Charlie Kaufman for plugging himself into a story or you know,
like otors will very frequently in a way cast themselves
as the lead, where most Charlie Coffman movies revolve around
a middle aged ish white guy because that's what Charlie
Kaufman is literally in the movie adaptation The Yeah, and

(59:00):
these are great movies, but it's it just comes down to, like, Okay,
that's fine, these are good movies. We can't be upset
with Charlie Coffin for putting himself and reflecting his own
experience as to an extent. But it just means that
other people need to be given opportunities so that everyone
is able to see themselves in the greater landscape. So
there's also no excuse that every I think every character

(59:22):
is a white person. Yeah, they're like, yeah, there's no
excuse for that, but there are very few characters in
the film. Yeah, yeah, there's mostly white guys. Anyways, shall
we discuss whether or not the movie passes the Bactel tests? Yeah? So,
I uh, I was curious about what you guys had

(59:45):
to say because I was looking at it very closely
and I was like, well, there's only a kind scenes
in which two female characters interact. One of them is
Clementine as Mrs Hamlin Roles mom's friend. Yeah, it's confusing,
and his mom is also there. We hardly see her

(01:00:07):
on screen. We hear her voice quite a bit more
than we see her, and she's like talking past Clementine,
she's not really talking to her. Yeah. Well, there's a
few moments where she's like, Oh, I'm gonna go stir
with the soup and get a salad bowl. Can you
keep an eye on jewel? So Clementine's like sure, and

(01:00:27):
then she's like, he just likes to be near me.
Later she comes back and she's talking about string beans
and she's like, is he okay? Well washed them? And
then later someone's talking about a cocktail. I think this movie,
in spite of while we could argue that passes if
I don't think it does, it's really hard to tell.
But then so, but you wouldn't count when Kirsten Dunce's

(01:00:49):
voiceover is speaking to Clementine before, does that happen? Yeah,
it happens. It's weird. But she's in the car and
she opens up the letter and hereson Dunce is like,
and she's not talking about a relationship or a man.

(01:01:10):
She's just not talking about man. She's talking about the
company and what they've done and to do right by it.
But then but because it's a letter, she's not like
really directly, he is not responding back right now. It's
so crazy because I'm like, I'm like grasping a straws
and I'm like that, I'm like that is this is
the one time I'm hearing like two female voices like

(01:01:32):
actually like saying staces. That's like one of them against
each other. That's like unfortunate about this movie because and
then there's a scene where Mary and Howard's wife are
in the same scene, but they're talking about Howard. They're
talking about but does not pass. So I want to
throw myself out a window. It makes me frustrated because

(01:01:52):
there are crazy yeah, like, there are opportunities for this
to happen, and it simply doesn't mm hmm. Frustrating. I
think we could argue that the memory scene with the
mom and the friend passes on a technicality, but I
would say, because we're in a man's memory, I know

(01:02:12):
that's what's also crazy, and everything is technically through. Yeah,
males perspective, right, that's also not really misses Hamlin, but
does that matter? And then also like the whole context
of their conversation is like we have to make sure
jewels near me because he always likes to be nearest mom.
And they hardly have any interaction where they're we actually

(01:02:34):
see them on screen talking and the things that they
are talking about that arna man are as we often
notice on the podcasting Cooking. Yeah, very domestic things. Yeah,
I'm gonna say as are our definition of the test evolves.
For me, it does not pass. I would agree with that. Yeah,
it just doesn't. It doesn't feel you could you you

(01:02:56):
can make the argument, but for me, it doesn't pass.
Which because there's no mean, mean, full interaction between two
women in this movie, right, maybe that's something that we
should because to figure out, like what is our definition
of it, because so many horrible movies pass it on
technicalities that are really frustrating. So maybe it's maybe the
word meaningful is like just like a meaningful interaction between

(01:03:18):
two women that isn't about a man, or like something
that plot the name caveat, like the two characters have
to be important enough that we would know their names.
Is an example of like are they meaningful enough characters
like and then yeah, I think we could add the
caveat is it a meaningful conversation that is important to
the story, and like the progression of the plot, don't

(01:03:39):
you Also, this is like totally different thing. But I
just often think about male writers of that era who
do really good work, but they're just going to be
a nately sexist. They're not going to be creating worlds
where women are the focus. It's they think of the

(01:03:59):
world a male perspective and they're so eased to that.
So it's I just I feel I feel like that
is a hard place to You're you're rarely going to
see someone breaking out of that. Still a lot of
work to be done. Let's write the movie on ourn't
nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its portrayal

(01:04:22):
of women. I'm going to give it. This was a
tricky one because while Clementine is a very well developed character,
although it is through the lens of like how Joel
sees her in his memory, so it's already kind of
like skewed a little bit. She is the one who
comes up with the idea to be like, hey, what

(01:04:44):
if you hide me in your other memories or like
hide me in your subconscious and it's like, wow, that's
a really great idea. It's her idea, So that's cool
that at least she has given something like that. But yet,
despite her being well developed, I think it's going to
get like a three a half from me. Is that
too high? Is that too low? Because yeah, she's well developed.

(01:05:09):
But I don't watch this and think like, wow, how
I feel so empowered as a woman, or like I
do think it's a good example of a depiction of
a hetero relationship that is very white and very straight
in the sense that she is well developed enough that
we at least understand why these two characters like each other.
But I think it holds up. I think it's a

(01:05:30):
good script. I think it's a good story. Yeah, I
don't know. Three point five nipples is just what's are
you giving your nips too? I'm giving my nips to
to to Clementine, one to Mary, and then a half
nipple to m Carrie, who we do not talk about
at all, but she is. She's friends with Joel, like
she's in a relationship they would cross. Exhausted, She's exhausted

(01:05:52):
and yeah, half nipple for her, just because we didn't
get to talk about her. I'm going to give it four.
I'll docket one for the inclusion stuff that we talked
about that there are certainly in a movie that takes
place in New York. Again, it's just like, oh, the
whitest New York you've ever seen, like the New York

(01:06:12):
only existing movies and for the few two thousand and
four elements it has um. And also just like because
the ratio of significant female characters versus significant male characters,
I'm pretty sure it's like I can think of four
very significant men two women. Yeah, you've got Clementine and Mary,

(01:06:33):
and you've got Howard Patrick, Mark Rufflo, whose name I
truly do not know, but only because I'm in love
with him as Mark Rufflo and Joel So so the
ratio bad, but I mean, I think that the way like,
I'm not necessarily looking to feel empowered as a woman
watching this movie. I'm just but this movie makes me

(01:06:55):
feel seen in ways that I wouldn't feel most times
watching a movie. And is it partially because I'm a
white head old lady. Sure, but for this movie, it's
like I can connect with it so much, and I
do feel seen by it, and I want that for everyone.
You know, everyone should have a movie they can watch

(01:07:16):
and feel seen. But I just I think Clementine is
such an interesting character who is very like layered and
everything we've discussed basically um, but it's cool to see
that trope commented upon in such an overt way, broken
down to the point where it's like, yes, some women
do act like this, but it is a mask for

(01:07:38):
something else, and it's a mask you come by honestly,
because it's sort of like put upon you, as like, okay,
well here is a way I can act in order
to seem more pleasing to the male case anyways, for
from me two to Climb two to Mark Ruffalo four nips, okay,
what do you? What say you? I would give it

(01:08:00):
also for nipples. It's pretty much for very similar reasons.
I think that although Clementine is simultaneously is like a
very flawed character, I think she's portrayed very accurately. You
see her in like many different ways. And as a
woman viewing this film, I often see films or television

(01:08:23):
and I feel like women are like misunderstood, misrepresented or
treated like objects or disrespectfully and it doesn't really feel
like that is the female purpose in this movie, which
is really nice. Um, And like Jamie said, it makes
as a woman, makes me feel like heard and paid

(01:08:44):
attention to and cared for. And yeah, also like Kirsten
Dunn's character and the wife's character and David Cross's wife,
that character Carrie, all those people, you see them struggling,
which I think is a really nice thing to see
because instead of struggling, oftentimes you see women being like

(01:09:08):
a pain in the ass. And to see women's struggle
is that is something that makes you feel like you're
coming from a place of understanding. And also they're all
just like so fucking hot. They're also hot, Oh god,
everyone is very except for Elijah Wood, who I will
say again looks like ship in this movie looks and

(01:09:29):
and also his characters terrible. So I don't feel that's Yeah,
so I'll give one nipple to each woman. Yea, Kate,
thank you so much for being here in town. Yeah,
where can we find you on social medes? Wow? Um,
you can follow at Good Good Comedy. That's on Twitter,
on Instagram, on Facebook, and then me personally, I'm I

(01:09:53):
don't really use social media that much. But my name
is Kate Banford, so just you know at Kate band
and Kate Banford and if you're in if you're ever
in Philly A good yeah, the best, it's the best.
It's wonderful. We try to be very representative as well.
You do a great job. You can follow the betel
Cast on social media. You can give us five dollars

(01:10:16):
a month or more just to say just because, but
also on our Matreon because that will enable you to
get to bonus episodes of the Packetel Cast every single month.
You can also buy our merch online. Other than that, Jamie,
I just want you to know that I will never
erase any memories of you. I'll never erase you either.

(01:10:39):
Oh my God, love you, Love you alright. Bye,