Waiting to Exhale with Errin Haines

Caitlin and Jamie have been holding their breath until the moment when they could chat with special guest Errin Haines Whack about Waiting to Exhale.

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Please put your hands together for the bec do cast
with your house Caitlin Darante and Jamie loved cast questions
asked and she's happens? Friends? Do they have individualism the
patriarchy and best start changing it with the cast? Yeah,

(00:24):
I'll go to the show that it came to you.
Oh my name is Jamie. I'm Caitlin. Thank you so
much for being here the show man. This is the
first night of our tour. We're so excited to be here.
We're which where to begin? Well, this is We're in

(00:47):
my home state of Pennsylvania, Philip. Oh yeah, can we
say that you can do whatever you want? Jamie? Can
we say that your family's here? Oh yeah, my mom
and sister here A tepid response about that there, Well,
I was thinking our first live episode we ever did

(01:07):
was in my home state of Massachusetts. Ever heard of it?
And my mom positively ruined the episode by getting extremely
horny for our guests. So that was one of my
favorite episodes. I was permanently traumatized by it. Interesting, my
mom absolutely and then I don't even know how do
we can get into it? But like our guest, for

(01:29):
a brief time, this is over a year ago was
considering pursuing my mom. It's like, your mom's so nice.
She im me on Facebook and she has a wild
view of what should be capitalized and what shouldn't be
Like he DMed me and it was like, hey, should
I ask out Jamie's mom? And you said. I said,

(01:54):
your body, your choice. See, I was hoping you would
say hard no, But I gave my mom the heads
up and she was like, well, let's see what he says. Uh. Sorry,
I have to notice we've got people reading The friend
Road drinking and a MIC's Hard, got Mike's Hard. Oh
my god, wait what flavor are you rocking? Sorry, there's

(02:17):
a mark? Are you kidding me? Oh? Thank you so much? Okay,
I was waiting for you. Just wow, wow for me. Unbelievable. Guys,
thank you. Uh, it's been a really long year. We
all had to, you know. The hardest part of the
year for everybody, of course, was weathering the MIC's hard

(02:37):
Lemonide Deadpool two crossover. That was just absolutely difficult for
us to get through because when you think about it,
it really is a perfect match. Every person buying a
MIC's hart Lemonade in Earnest is seeing Deadpool two multiple times. Yeah,
so anyway, round of applause, who has seen the movie

(03:03):
we're covering tonight? Waiting to exhale. Oh yeah, we love
when people do homework out of curiosity. By round of applause,
who is not seeing the movie? Okay, alright, alright, alright?
Does anyone here think that they were coming to see
an episode about Mulholland Drive? Any jazz there, colo co

(03:24):
col uh? Well, very different episode and we can't wait
to have the discussion with you. Yeah, we originally had
on our ticket, Lenk that we were covering Mulholland Drive,
and then we changed it and mikes are eliminated. I
think we've said we've I mean, what haven't we said

(03:44):
about it? But what is our podcast? What is it?
We talk, as you know, and we talked about the
portrayal of women in movies and how it's historically very bad,
and we use the e Bectel test as a jumping
off point to initiate a larger conversation m about women
in film. Hey, you guys probably know, but for our

(04:04):
listeners at home, who maybe this is their first episode
they're tuning into. Yeah, well, let' see if they can
say it. Yeah, so ready, ready, Caitlyn. Our friends are stupid.
They're dumb. I don't know what to do. I thought

(04:25):
there was smart, but I was wrong. I have a
feeling that everyone said the exact right thing, but just
at different paces, so you have a higher faith there.
So just to recap what you all said very correctly
in unison figs back to a little test requires that
a movie has two named female identifying characters who speak

(04:47):
to each other about something other than a man. Yes,
for example, really quick, Hey Caitlin, Hey Jamie. I'm having
a little contest with myself for tour to keep myself entertained,
which is what is the worst outfit I can come
up with? Uh? For? I mean, I think I'm starting
up pretty strong, got period panties on and then a

(05:10):
sheer Coachella's skirt over it, and then of course rocking
the team dry Scabs merch of top right before we
bring out our guests. I just wanted to take a
quick uh take the temp where Philly is at on
the Dry Scabs Wet Scabs debate? Are we're all familiar
with what this is? If you don't know what the
debate is, if beetlejuice. The character was coming. Is he

(05:33):
coming wet scabs or is he coming dry scaps? Now,
I clearly we know where I'm a ds A member,
I say dry scaps. But just a quick clap it
up if you're feeling if you're feeling like it's a
wet scabs situation, oh physically painful, Okay, and dry scalps,

(05:59):
this is gonna be a great chef. Uh clap, clap
it up. If you're as disgusted by that conversation as
I am, Caitlin, you're splitting the vote. This is why
that's happened. This is why this happened. We're splitting it.
A friendly Jill Stein over here. God, let's bring out

(06:20):
our guests. Let's do it. We're so excited to have
for so excited. She is the Associated Press national writer
on race and ethnicity, and she's worked at the Washington
Post in Los Angeles. Times give it up for Aaron
Haynes Whack. Who welcome Aaron. You know, thanks for having me.

(06:45):
It's a delight, absolute pleasure. So as we said, that
movie we're talking about today is waiting to exhale. Um.
Some of you have seen it, others of you are here,
so totally my fault. Aitney Houston is not in Mulholland Drive.
Although what have absolutely something worth considering. Um, what is

(07:10):
your history with Waiting to Exhal? Aaron? Okay, So Waiting
to Exhale came out the year that I graduated from
high school, which I don't mind sharing with you guys,
because Melanin, Um, yeah, And I mean these women were
like obviously like total icons of like the culture at
that time. I mean, Whitney Houston, Angela Bassett, Lauretta Divine, Layla, Rashawn.

(07:33):
You know, like these were women who you thought were
like your cool auntie you or like your cooler older cousin.
So you just immediately loved the movie for that because
these people felt immediately familiar to you. But also, I mean,
Terry McMillan was such a big part of black culture
at that time as an author, so you know, I
think for a lot of reasons, Uh, this movie kind

(07:54):
of immediately resonated with like black women of all ages,
and it was something that rewatching it as a grown woman,
I definitely have different feelings about but like at that time,
at that time, story the big cast exactly, no This
definitely fits into that genre, you know, kind of like, yeah,
w t of a generation like Caitlin, what's your history?

(08:18):
I hadn't seen this movie. I was familiar with the
gift moment. Does everyone know what I'm talking about? Where
Angela Bassett's walking away from the burning car and she
does a and if you if you've ever used that gift? Yeah, exactly, yea,
exactly tell me you'all alive. The context of the gift
is way more satisfying. So much more satisfy. Yeah, so

(08:40):
much more so. I hadn't seen it, but I'm very
excited to talk about it same I uh, in keeping
with being myself side this morning. And uh, because I
have never seen a movie. If you go to her
iTunes reviews, it's a common complaint. No, I I've seen
scenes from this movie. You before, i'd seen the gift.

(09:03):
I'm familiar with the gift. I had used the gift, yes,
and then now I've now I feel even stronger about
the gift than I did when I first started using it.
You have a new appreciation for that gift. I would
just used search term Angela Carr that'll get you what
you and that will get you the gift, but it
will not get you the context. But if you look

(09:25):
of Angela car, the gift generally comes up. But yeah,
I saw today. I've seen scenes of it over the years.
It's one of my aunt's favorite movies. Shout out to
your auntie, shall I do? The recap of the movie went, oh,

(09:45):
my goodness. Uh and this will especially be helpful for
the people who thought we were going to talk about waiting.
So it's New Year's Eve. U. Yeah, and that's actually

(10:06):
the beginning Aniot Yeah, circle Like Rent, I believe we're
in Phoenix, Arizona, where apparently, um, a lot more black
people live than I thought. That was my first thought
watching that movie. I was like, whoa, it's a lot
of black people living in I'm from Atlanta. I did

(10:27):
not know Phoenix is apparently the Atlanta of the Southwest,
according to this film. Didn't it was news to me.
I don't know. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh. So we meet four friends,
Uh Savannah Jackson, that's Whitney Houston's character, Bernardine Harris is
Angela Bassett, Robin Stokes is uh Layla Howe, and Gloria

(10:47):
Matthews is Laretta Divine. They are all holding their breath
or some might say waiting to exhale. Oh, they lots
of flourishes in the recap to that. I wrote one
out just you know. It's in my Dog. There, there's

(11:11):
color coding, there is always Yes, it's six pages, eight
point font ye. So they're basically waiting until they find
the right man, and the story centers around different relationships
between men that are in their lives. So Savannah, she's

(11:33):
moving to Whitney Houston. Yes, yes, yeah. I feel like
we're going to be switching a lot back and forth
between character names and actors in this one. Definitely. So
the first guy in her life is Lionel. She meets
him at a New Year's Eve party, one of many
slow dance scenes, and she says the title to the

(11:53):
movie sort of. I was very excited about, but acting
was not. When she was known for. Can't we say
that she can sing? She can sing? No, she can sing.
Though her contribution to the soundtrack, which we will get
too later was very important. Yes, here's what I'll say

(12:14):
about Whitney Houston as an actress. She can sing exactly,
amazing thing. I think she did a pretty good job. Yeah, okay,
yea so Linel. They have sex in a really funny
sex scene, but he turns out to be like a cheap,

(12:36):
like freeloader dude, so she's like, get out of here,
onto the next one. Meanwhile, we've got Bernard Dean. She
is married to this guy and John. Yes, yes, So
she's married to this guy named John and he leaves
her and her two kids on New Year's Eve. On
New Year's Eve, gasp, yes, gasp, but it was shocking.

(12:58):
He comes in the room and she's like not feeling
going to the New Year's Eve party, and he's like, hey,
do you want to not go to the party, and
she's like, oh thank god. He's like, because I'm going
with the woman I'm leaving you for. I was like,
oh my god, Happy New Year. It's like they gotta
sitter in everything. And then he's like, hold on, actually,

(13:21):
this marriage is over right insane. So then that's followed
by a sequence where she takes all of his expensive
things and then burns them into his car. I mean,
where is her oscar? Folks, where is Angela Bassett's oscar?
For this? Like, I mean, the nobody does despair and

(13:41):
rage like Angela Bassett and you know, this needs to
be Is there like an honorary oscar that can be
given to her? Now, yeah, retro, we need to go back.
This needs to be recognized by someone. It's crazy because
a lesser actress, it would have just sounded like us,
like spewing exposition, which is what she's doing. She's like
I went to grad school speaking no, no, no, there

(14:08):
were there was. I mean like she just she delivered
just like one of her many like epic lines in
the movie, like I was your white woman for eleven years,
and I'm like, yes, burn it all, burn it all.
It was amazing, It was amazing. I think I think
that was the first time that I really learned what
satisfaction really was, what gratification could really feel like. I

(14:33):
felt it in that moment, even at that young age.
I recognized the cigarette, Oh my god, and then lights
the car on fire, and then the gift and you're
just like, yes, is the best thing ever. I felt
what she felt in that in that moment. And then
the fire department comes intos like She's like, yes, trash,
yeah I was. That fireman was so baffled, but he

(14:55):
also looked horny like and he knew not to take
it further as well. He knew. He was like all right, ma'am,
all right, and he's like, I'm not going to get
in the line of fire of whatever has happened. He
has doors already slammed in. Your face is over. You know,
he's done. Nothing's happening. He got his SAG card. Get
out of there. You're done. Yes, uh so, yeah, she

(15:15):
burns all this stuff and then she's like trying to
get money from him or something. My font is really small,
so I can't read. Um. Well, there's like a big divorce.
Like there that yard sale, the yards where stuff for
a dollar dollar. Seventeen year old meat thought, I mean
I was really appreciative of the petty of the dollar
yard sale. Grown asked me, is like, this was not

(15:39):
a last financial choice. Boot. You didn't know what you
were going to get in that divorce. Mean while you,
I mean, you may not have a potopist Like why
are you selling his stuff for a dollar? I mean
that car alone, it burns everything and then sells the
like skis for one dollar. Absolutely no choices. But again,
this whole, this whole movie, he's about poor judgment. I

(16:01):
recognize that now you guys, I recognize that the pettiness
in this movie is very strong, but in a very
satisfying way. Black Girl tragic is that like that? So
then she's dealing with like the grief of this divorce
for the rest of the movie. Uh. And then meanwhile,
we've got Robin. I feel like she would have been
an Instagram thought like in like just just based on

(16:24):
her behavior, some of her choices. I feel like she
would have been on Instagram who agrees with doing them
doing the most? Yeah, okay, okay, just wondering. Her first
guy is Michael, who she works with, and she is
not attracted to him. She called him him a Sumarne sandwich.

(16:45):
She fat shames him, she really did. Yeah, it's it's
not okay, she came down heart in him. But also
we know that she I mean, she makes it very
clear she is physically repulsed by when she did. And
then he undermines her work, so she fires him. So
good for her. I guess what if you're bad sex,

(17:08):
you're fired right right, But this time women are doing it.
And then we meet Gloria. She is a single mother
of a teenage Donald face on Hello, Shout Out to
You scrubs clueless anyone. Josie and the Pussy can prebraces too,

(17:32):
And you can hear it in the line reads true,
bless his heart had a bad haircut, all of it.
All that, it's a very convincing teenager. But wow, his
mom was a hairdresser, Like why why did he have
a bad haircut? I don't know. I'm just questions that
I'm asking now. I did not He's just a rebel.

(17:54):
He's like, my hair is gonna look like ship, I guess.
And then her whole thing is she hasn't had sex
in a long time, so she's extremely horny. Uh. Then
a moment of silence from I'm loving I'm loving your
your takeaways, your synopsies are these characters. This is hilarious.

(18:15):
That was a very strange moment. I think it was
my fault, but I don't know. So then we lost.
It's time for more. Savannah's men troubles. A lot of
bad wigs, a lot of bad wigs. Her next also
noticed that in retrospect of bad wigs, we just want

(18:36):
to put that out there, didn't have some good wigs.
But she could sing. She kids saying. The one thing
in this movie she does not do so Whendy Houston
starts seeing Kenneth, who I call Mr all State because

(18:57):
you can't you cannot look at him now without thinking
about that. So true. She was not in good hands,
all right, because he is married and he has a
sub child and I used to date but then he
got married and then an't you married when they were
dating the first time? I don't know? And I thought, so, right, Yeah,

(19:19):
that was why they couldn't work out before, because you know,
the little matter of his wife and child. Uh, you
know that was complicating things. Not that that bothered her
a Savannah's mother in the least. Yeah, She's like, you
need a man, all women. I don't want you to
be alone because I can't take care of you. Yes,

(19:41):
And that storyline concludes with her dumping him and being
like I'm too good for you bye forever, and then
and then calling her mom and being like, stopped telling
me to get married. Click also stopped you co signing
my side chick behavior like I'm gonna I'm a reform
side chick now I'm leaving that life. It's like, okay, girls. Yeah,

(20:04):
that was supposed to be one of the many moments
where you're like yes, but I'm just really like it's
about damn time. Like I was. I was much more
disgusted with her. I was much more disgusted with this
movie in general, actually rewatching it um than I was before,
because I was like, oh yeah, girl, yes dumb. It's like, no,
you you really should not even be in the picture.

(20:25):
Ye get here here, Hey, Jamie, what you say? We
take a real quick break and then we'll come back
for more. Sounds good to me, right. Every Something rare
about this movie that we don't get with movies with

(20:48):
women and them ever, is we know what everyone's job is,
which is great. However, the way they show people doing
their jobs is very like, you know, it's sort of
like in a sign. It's a movie where they're like
chemicals right there, we see we know that Whitney Houston

(21:08):
is a TV producer because she stands in front of screen.
You don't get to actually see her producing right that.
It's like, oh, well, she she is there? Uh se
is that her office looking usance? It's probably probably probably
she stands in front of a chart at one point
and we're like, oh okay, yeah, right, could have been

(21:31):
she could have been doing anything she could have been.
And then Gloria's doing hair and we see her doing
her job and we know she's good at it. Everyone
else is sort of just like a, yeah, she's there,
so probably it's fine. But I will say, I mean
even a little bit that they did show, like to
me as as a young woman, like that telegraph to
me like that these west successful professional black women, right,

(21:53):
and so like this is kind of what I envisioned
like women and their Black women in their thirties being
like right, except for the like not getting married part,
because like I didn't really see that for my future,
but like I did see, yes, these women have jobs,
like they have their ship together, like they are independent whatever,
you know, and so I'm thinking, yes, this is this
is what this is supposed to be. Absolutely yeah, and

(22:14):
it's like it it is so genuinely hard to find
movies where you see women doing their jobs at all.
Uh So this movie goes above and beyond in that
regard to say, sadly, even even these crumbs, we've we've
we've got a chart, We've got a chart, and that
is progress that Yeah, And then Bernadine has an NBA

(22:34):
and again speaking of grad school, didn't get to get
it in the first time, but I do have a
master's green screen running from Boston University. I hate to
bring it up. Yes, yes, you're using that right now. Yeah,
thank you. Okay, So Bernardine is the rest of I'll
go through this really quickly. Her next guy is Herbert,

(22:55):
who she like spends one night with. He's another married
guy she's sleeping in. Dead to me is okay in
this movie. And she's the one who burned all of
her ex husband stuff for correct, so it's a little
it sends mixed messages, burn and then her. The final
guy is James played by Wesley Snipe. No, don't clap

(23:20):
for him, no, because again, looking back, he was supposed
to be like the one good guy in this movie
you got well and that's not true. Gregory Hans too,
but like he was supposed to be the good guy
in the movie after like so many of these trash
men and like, but he's not. He's totally not right.
Like he's hitting on you and you gotta die, wife

(23:42):
of the crib. He that was bad, No, And you're
like but no, no, no, no, reject that impulse. This
man is hitting on her with like feel bad for
the for the dime spouse, don't feel bad for Wesley
Snipes for so for context for for the Wesley Snips character.

(24:02):
He shows up at a you know, out of nowhere,
which is how all men in this movie show up.
They are just suddenly in frame and taking control of
the scene. It's very exciting. But he he shows up
and he's talking to Angela Bassett and he is like, yeah,
so crazy. My wife is dying. And she's like, oh,

(24:24):
do you want to have sex? And he's like yeah,
and then they go upstairs and he's like, just so
you know, I love my dying wife. PS. She's white, right,
It's like, but she's still dying. It's like, I think
the more important party here is that she's dying. She's

(24:44):
dying right now. Possibly, I don't know, and I don't
care because I'm up in here, in this wholesale room
with you. Let's make tonight beautiful. And so Angela Bassa
and then Angela Bassa is like, Okay, so she's dying,
let's but the difference in spoon while close now she
will see like what do you want to do? That

(25:04):
is true. She was gonna go along. She was gonna
go go with that if he had been like all right,
but then yeah, they end up spooning with all their
like yeah, and we're supposed to be like, I can't
while they're spooning, Oh girl is back home dying. We've
got I've got a lady in Chemo and he's spooning
Angela Bassett. Everyone's worse fear Romanic, and then her story ends.

(25:33):
The divorce proceedings go through. She wins a ship ton
of money and property and property, a lot of stuff.
Yeah forget. Then we've got robbing her. One of her
guys is Michael the Submarine Submarine my County Williamson. You know,

(25:54):
he is an unsung hero this movie. I mean those
of you who have seen it know how hilarious he
was and starting to feeding because I mean, she was
really trying to make that work, because that's not anybody
that you want to be your boyfriend for real, Like,
but she was at that point, you know, she's getting over.
Michael Troy comes into the picture and it's like couldn't

(26:14):
get worse? Yes, crack, but like let's talk about that,
because let's talk about this. I mean, like she rolls
up on him doing a line, and then and then,
and then Robbin is on the phone with Savannah a
k a. Whitney Houston having a conversation about somebody being

(26:34):
a crackhead. Whitney Houston is trying to a girl he's
a crackhead. It's like, well you would now, I mean, wow, wow, again,
I totally missed that the first time around. But like,
time was not kind to that Whitney Houston. It's like,
crack is wag basically to Robbin, and I'm like, yes,

(26:59):
it's hilarious. It is hilarious. She knew all the crack behavior. Girl,
he saw your wallet like she knew. She was speaking
from experience and we she I wonder how she was
really handling those scenes, like looking back, because that that
was hilarious. That was hilarious. But that wasn't even the
funniest part. The funniest part was you know when he

(27:20):
shows up drunk, but Barbara Fruit drows fruit at Layla Pishan,
who throws it back with perfect aim. By the way,
I wish, I wish that that had not been out
of frame because I would have loved to see him
get hit in the back of the hid in the orange.
But leather wearing in the summertime. I mean, that was
a classic scene because why did he have on that
leather vest in Phoenix? Why do you even own leather

(27:44):
in Phoenix? Like, I just I don't know. And he
was picking he in theory, was picking her up because
he decided he didn't ask her. He's like, you're gonna
meet my mom and my sister today. I'm showing up.
I'm drunk and on crack maybe possibly probably, and I'm
wearing a leather vest. Get outside, just like, no, I'm good.

(28:05):
I'm gonna stay right here on this porch. Thanks. And
that is like kind of the closest we get for
that character of like standing up for herself. But it's like,
but that sort of just seems like a given. She
stands up for herself later, but we'll get to that. Yeah,
and yeah, because her story ends with her old boyfriend
Russell comes back into the picture and he's all like,
I don't want to leave my wife either. They're all

(28:26):
these men are married to someone else because they're going
to leave, but it's just not the right time. It's
never the right time. My kid's birthday of those totally
the right time for me. To come over, slide through
on the late night but it's not the right time
for me to leave. And then she dumps him once
and for all. But she's pregnant with his baby. And

(28:48):
again you want to cheer this moment. She's standing up
for herself. He's like coming over. She's like, no, you
can't come in. He's like, what you reading, Oh, childhood choices?
What's that? He's like backing out the war and she's like, yeah,
it's yours and I'm keeping it. Again, we can't root
for the Sade chick people. We cannot root for her.

(29:11):
Good for you, you're having a baby. You're not going
to get another abortion like whatever, But like, yeah, you
you were, you were the mistress. Yeah, this is not
this is not I mean, yeah, I'm not feeling it.
I'm not feeling a happy ending here for you. There's
a lot of I mean, it just seems like sort
of the movie aims to do this flip of like

(29:31):
the three women at the beginning of the movie who
were like I need a man end up not with
a man. And then the one woman, Gloria who's like
I'm raising my son and I'm giving to everyone, ends
up with a man, So they just sort of like
flipped the original intention. But in cases like that, it's like,
but they're not thinking too hard about it. Angela Basset
is gonna get a man just as soon as white

(29:52):
women breast cancer there, right, because man is on the way.
She has a really sinister, like big sports clock in
her kitchen and I'm like, countdown to death again. There's right,
because after you said that letter was like, yeah, keep

(30:14):
me posted. Yeah, She's like, you know, I'll just here's
my email, just invite me to the funeral. I'm sort
of a oh my god a sub tweet too when
I can. It's it's bruttle, It's brut right. And Jamie,
as you mentioned, Gloria, she's the only one who ends
up with the man, her neighbor Marvin, although before that

(30:37):
she has a brief interaction with h Jon's dad, David
uh who was like I used to be by but
now I'm gay, which he said he changed his mind,
Like oh my god. Right. But you know what though,
that part was interesting too because again, like um, thinking
back to like that era, you have like a lot

(31:01):
of conversation in black culture about like the download phenomenon
of black men, and so I was like, oh, this
dude is supposed to like, you know, be not typical
but like an exemplary of of of this phenomenon. Like
she she didn't have any idea. And then like he
ends up coming out to her, you know, because she's
trying to keep something going, and he's like, oh, actually
I should let you know this is where I'm at now,

(31:23):
and it's like okay, and then like at the well
we haven't gotten to the birthday party yet, but like
you know, they're like lamenting that. Then you know the
good men are gay you know, or you know unavailable.
Right there, that whole scene plays very weird where but
the birthday scene, well, the birthday the the weird coming

(31:43):
out that whole scene, You're just like, I see what
you're going for and I respect it. However, everything is
weird there, like don't want you. They even do like
he's wearing ear rings like they're sub tweeting the funk
out of you, and this seen he also wig but
I mean actually that's probably like his real hair, but

(32:03):
it was cut like but it's like all this stuff
and then he comes out to her in a very
white guy adaptation of a story way, and he's like,
I was by I changed my mind. Sorry, and she is.
Her original reaction to that is, oh, if you're not
attracted to me, like just tell me, and like she

(32:27):
she was taking it personally and thought that he was
just trying to get out of the situation. He's like, no,
I'm gay and I'm leaving, and then he leaves in
that sort of it, and then Donald Fazon's reaction to
that is even, we can get into that in a moment,
but it's not that. To be clear, we recognize that
sexuality is fluid and maybe, but yeah, the way it's

(32:51):
handled in this movie is like, oh, that's that's not
your intention. But that's like not, that's not what you
were trying. It's just it's just a mess. It was
in a treat sexuality in this movie. But then she
ends up with Marvin, who seems really nice. He did
seem nice, I mean Gregory Hunts. He did not seem
like the type of person that should have been, you know,

(33:12):
messing over one of these ladies. And his wife is dead.
His wife is definitely dead. So he's available, right, She's
got and Gloria made sure she got for one one
on him like right away, yeah, and then plaid him
with soul food and sandwiches, you know, and tell him
because women be making food, women be nurturing this. Uh.

(33:40):
And you may have noticed that the way I framed
all of these storylines was around the men, because the
women do not end up on screen together that much.
They're four best friends, but I think they're only on
screen together for like twenty ish minutes total. That may
be true. Actually, I mean they're at the club together

(34:00):
and they're having the birthday party. Yeah, there's like that
one random Gratio would have seen in them coming out
of church together. That's about a ten seconds. Either. Two
of them are at a carnival at one point talking
about abortion. You were on a ferris wheel talking about it.
That was two carnival things. About the other one where
they were like drunk at that park or wherever they were,

(34:21):
I don't know. I'm like, there is a ferris wheel scene. Yeah,
that's that's fun. The other one they're at an Ostrich Race.
Yeah they're well, I mean again they're in Phoenix, like
what are they doing? But they're at They're at an
Ostrich Race. And then Angela Bassett opens the scene by

(34:43):
saying this is boring, and then she's like, by the way,
I help someone cheat on their wife last night, how
do you feel about it? Such a weird scene. The
most jarring part of that scene for me is saying,
Austrich racing is boring because like, you been given a gift.
What do you So that's pretty much the story of

(35:04):
the movie. At the very end, it's New Year's Eve
again and presumably the following year, but who knows how
much time has passed? And too much it's six years
later now she's pregnant. It was likely, it's true. Yeah,
they're like, oh, we don't need men, and then we've
got a car and friends. First of all, no again,

(35:27):
watching this, watching this now? My first thought in that
last scene, why then aren't they at Angela Bassett's house
in Acapulco? Right, okay, if I'm gonna be spending New
Year's with you, but it's I want to be in
Acapolca because where are they there? In a lot, They're
still in Phoenix. Still in Phoenix is where they are? Ps.

(35:50):
Gloria's got a man now, I'm shocked that she ditched
Marvin to be with these chicks. Donald fazas in Spain.
That's a whole definitely gone the fase ons like why
can't I go to Spain? And I love saying like
homophobic slurs. That's his whole character. Oh and also at
one point Gloria busting on him getting his dick sucked

(36:12):
very jarring. No one Donald's phase on pre braces getting
sucked off is not something anyone's ready for. It's just
not I wasn't I I was. I wasn't know. I
was like, I was a shocked as Gloria. It was
I was like, get out of her, out of his shed?

(36:34):
Where does he having in the I was like in
the pool house? I guess. I was like, that's a
very nice shed that he's getting sucked off. And I
guess I don't know, as one does God, what does
Phoenix like? Like? Thanks so so, Aaron. You have said
that you know you grew up with this movie. Was

(36:57):
you know, an iconic movie for you, But now, as
in a all are be watching this in today's era.
Tell us about how it's different for you or how
just your thoughts on how black women are represented. I mean,
I think it speaks to the fact that just the
under representation you do, you still don't see you know,
these kind of relationships really portrayed in this way on

(37:18):
the big screen. I mean, like think about how excited
people were about Girls Trip, you know, I mean, and
that movie you know is coming, you know, thirty years later,
so people recognize that, you know, because we don't really
get this, like any kind of representation like this, and
especially because these women were the stars that they were
at the time, Like you really were so excited for

(37:39):
this movie. But like in retrospect, yeah, these are not
people that I really want to root for, I mean,
except for Gloria. Like I did not feel myself rooting
for any of them and their storylines this time around.
It was just kind of like I literally am looking
at each one of them like girl, get it together,
like way up? No, Like like yeah, I was literally

(38:00):
really just like yelling at the screen at multiple points
because I was just like I wanted them to be
making better choices. And also just I was not as
willing to put as much blame on some of these
men as as I would have been like when I
was young, thinking oh, these are great women, like you know,
what is you know, what is wrong with these men?
It's like no, actually they are making poor choices, like

(38:22):
these are not people. Yeah, you shouldn't be with with
any of these dudes, but also like why do you
keep picking these trash people? Right? Well, the big thing
for me about this movie is I was coming and
expecting it to be a movie about black female friendship,
and I was like, I can't wait to like just
like see them interact on screen, and then the whole
movie was is totally framed. They're totally defined by like

(38:44):
the men who they're with or who they want to
be with. Every storyline is about the men in their lives,
and I was like boring, right, And that's like the
most frustrating thing about I mean seeing like a movie
that's built around female friendship up being sort of thrown
away and like this really lazy writing kind of way

(39:05):
of like, well, they're female friends, so we can use
that as a conduit to talk about how they consider
the men in their lives to be like what to
find absolutely like by the time you get to the birthday,
like the living room birthday, seeing like that, you wish
that that could have been like most of the movie
because like you have like every friend that you need

(39:25):
is in that room, right, like somebody that's gonna talk
you down from bad choices, somebody that's actually maybe if
you're gonna make bad choices, ready to go along with
that ship, like let's go, you know, when Bernadine is
drunk and ready to call and cuss John out, you
know right there right now, that number, you know, and
like you know that one friend that's kind of like
neutral and just kind of hanging back to kind of

(39:46):
see what happens like that is and they go through
like the range of emotions like in that one night,
as as girls do when they get together and open
them away. Okay, I mean they're they're having a good time,
they're crying, you know, they're talk it about me, but
they're also just kind of talking about their lives. And
it's like, yes, more of this plea And it's more
fun to watch than the nine hundred scenes of one

(40:09):
of the characters deciding to be a side check to
someone else's marriage, because that is what most of the
movie is, or having bassics with somebody who is single.
But those scenes are really funny though. Sex scenes those
are and those are like female gay scenes where like
there's that scene with Michael or you see the fucking
prop flop sweat on his he's character acting the ship.

(40:34):
He's like, uh, I love sex, and you're like, oh
my god, he's just he's so much I matter how
things worked out for him after probably yeah, I bet
he was in like he ends up at the club
with another woman, a real life let's look him up, right,
I feel like he has two hundred movie credit. But

(40:55):
also I don't. I mean, that sex scene was pretty
terrible too Windy Houston's face, and that is because he's
making like yeah, and she's like, she's like I don't
want to go to the zoo or something. She's like,
I guess I'm the zookie friend. Yeah. Yeah, I do
appreciate how like sex positive this movie is though. That's

(41:18):
a line from the movie. Yeah, very sex positive because
they're like at some point every character is like I'm
so horny, and the other women are like yeah, and
go get some like they are very supportive, never like
slut shamie anything like that. Yeah. Well, with that, let's
take a quick break, shall we. Let's shall I'll be

(41:38):
right back. There's there's that scene with Gloria and the neighbor.
The scene where she meets the neighbor is such a horny,
so crazy, there's looking at him like a sandwich. I
knew this was an adapted work, but there are some
scenes where you can very much feel it because they're

(42:01):
like having loud monologues to themselves in front of the
other character. You're like, he is right there where she's
walking away, and it's like after it, there's a vibe,
and then she's going back home and then she's like,
I hope he's not watching me walk away, and then
turns around. It's like he's like he's four ft away

(42:24):
from you, right right, sas off across lonologue. Can we
talk about Bernardine's monologue as she's like throwing away and
burning all of John's stuff, Yes, because she's touching on
stuff like the man like his expectations of me is
that I was gonna like be the background to his foreground.

(42:47):
I mean she's talking about that. She's talking about how
he didn't want the kids to go to a certain
school because he didn't want the improper influence. She's talking
about how she wanted to start a business but he
told her. I mean yeah, she's just I mean yeah,
she was airing a lot of s on her way
to that garage, like with those back and forth trips,
it's fully earned. Yeah, or she even like you see

(43:08):
his organized closet, You're like, oh no, yes, things are
about to be mismatched. And just how how quickly it
happened too, though, I mean, because like it starts off
like she's in the bed right, she's miserable, she's crying,
gets up, makes a pot of coffee and hits that closet,
and fifteen puts the kids on the bus in fifteen

(43:31):
minutes later, that's it's a bonfire baby in the driveway,
and you're just like and then she's on the couch
watching cartoon. And then later on there's the scene where
her husband has just had the kids for a weekend
and he brings them back, and they got her facial
expression again, Nobody does rage like Angela Bassett, Like the

(43:55):
death stare that she has given this dude when he
is dropping those kids off, and how she just immediately,
just on a dime, goes from that to like being
loving mom to these kids as they're coming home, and
clearly they're like siding with her and love her so much,
and they're just like dad is trash, all right, then
I'm back, but like yeah that. But also another Angela

(44:18):
Basset classic is when she busts up in that office
when he clears out because she comes in, she's like yelling,
and then the first thing she does is slap Kathleen,
his mistress across I was. I felt rewarded in that moment.
It was very rewarding. Where is that gift like that

(44:39):
should be that is underused? If that is a gift
that is out there, and if not, if anybody in
here has those kind of skills or capabilities, please go
ahead and get that going on Twitter so that I
can get to see. I found that moment a little
troubling because I think we talked about this on I
Have as a white woman or for some other reason.

(45:02):
That's why that's why no race completely aside. We talked
about this on our Cruel Intentions episode where women who
get wronged by a man by you know, them cheating them.
There's a tendency because women are so generally pitted against
each other in society, for the one who has cheated

(45:25):
on to blame the other woman, and then a lot
of the men kind of like get off scott free
or not, they're not held as accountable. So I mean,
I understand her anger and frustration, and I thought that
that like went up in my head as well. But
then it's like she's just as mad, if not angry
at And also, I mean, this woman was she was

(45:45):
in between her and the husband, and it seems that
she has stepped out of the way. We may not
even have been there. She should have just stepped to
the right. I mean, like, if we're being honest, like
if it had been if it would not have been me,
but had it been me, I would have just I
don't know, because I mean, you see the tornado coming
and you just are sitting and you stand up and

(46:06):
start to speak absolutely no, yeah, absolutely not. And then
this but when she I mean god, when she finally
does light into him and she doesn't hit him, but
I mean her unleashing on him when he's tunging. Oh yeah,
by the way, I'm thinking about coming to pick up
my kids, and she's like, oh god, you guys, you
guys know what she says. She's like, if you have

(46:28):
them anywhere near that tramp bitch, and she leans into
that with everything that she has. Again, wears her oscar.
It was so good. It's it seems like her rage
is sort of distributed equally for everyone who's wronging her.
And let me be clear. Let me be clear, there

(46:48):
are many white women who should be slapped by black women,
any woman who voted for Trump. Basically, it's tricky, I mean.
And that comes up again later in the Wesley Snipes
scene where it's like a reveal to Angela Bassett that

(47:09):
because he says, it's it's just like, I don't know,
I'm interested in how you because it's all over the place.
If he's like, I'm a civil rights slayer and it's
a boy the way his catint for like a professional
black women. You throw that out there and it's like,
I'm sorry, I love you, I'm sorry. What what? But
then they go upstairs and he's like, remember that dying

(47:31):
wife I've told you about. She's white. And then and
then Angela Bassett's like, yeah, it's it's it's weird the
way they and I read that in the book. That
is not how that scene goes, and that's not how
that story goes in the book. The Wesley Snipes character

(47:52):
wants to divorce his wife, who his wife and his
wife he wants to dive force his dying white wife
and like it wasn't working before she got sick, and
then she got sick, and then he's like, well, I've gotta,
for lack of a better phrase, ride this out, and
so in the in the I'm so sorry, and and

(48:19):
that's sort of I think is a more effective story
choice to be like, the marriage is over, and it
was over, but in this version he's like, I love
her deeply and then Angela, which makes Angela Bassett's choice
seem bizarre or like her being like, let's funk anyways.
But I mean, clearly she was already cool with one
offs with Mary Dudes. I mean we saw that, which

(48:42):
is crazy because she's so mad at like her husband
and that white woman is crazy liked her. I don't know,
it's confusing, and a lot of this is I mean,
I would hazard to guess adaptation issues from the book
to the movie. Maybe maybe somebody whoever I'm forgetting who

(49:03):
wrote this race. Yeah, it was the author of the book, Terry,
but a guy but also a white guy, a white guy.
What they ended up coming up with for the movie, though,
like in some people's minds and making him more endearing
because at the time, like I said, I mean, I
was like, oh, this is so sad, like you know,

(49:25):
if only they'd met, you know, in another lifetime or whatever.
It's like, no, they're meeting in this lifetime and she's
dying and and so step out of the Why are
you even sitting down next to her order in Hennessy right,
Why are you hitting on this woman as your wife
actively passes away? I don't know there, but there is
there is like a bell Hooks piece written just a

(49:47):
few movies after this movie came out, and bell Hooks
does not like this movie. And she she knew very much. Yeah,
she but like you were saying, Aaron, before we came out,
like she was a full grown you know she was.
She wasn't seventeen when this And that's when, like we
talked about all the time, Like the movies you see
while your brain is still squishy and you're trying to

(50:09):
understand the world using the media around you, it shapes
your view of the world. Bell Hooks was formed by
the time she saw that she was not having it.
She was not having it, and she writes about in
her piece that there was a white guy screenwriter actively
involved in giving recommendations on how this should be adapted,
and so stuff like the stuff that changes markedly from

(50:31):
the book, like the Wesley Snipe stuff is like at
the suggestion and push of some rando like Hollywood white
guy imagine you know. Yeah, so adaptation, it's adaptations are fucked.
Show me a good adaptation. Doubt doubt that's true, but
doubt it was. I mean, John, but they just let

(50:54):
John Patrick Shanley go for it. Check out John Patrick
Shanley's Twitter. It's fucking weird. He posted the selfie before
he goes to bed. He's like, good night. I don't know. Anyways, Anyways,
this movie was a box office success. It opened a

(51:16):
number one. Again, black women were they were ready for.
This movie was a critical like mixed review. So because
Angelo Bassett, but also Whitney Houston. She can sing other

(51:38):
final thoughts or there was the other stuff you wanted
to I mean, like I said, the only thing that
was better than this movie for me at that time
was the soundtrack, which Frankly Steel holds up right. I mean,
baby Face, you know, the King of arm nineties R
and B. You know, he produced it. But all of
the songs were by black women, and so I mean

(51:59):
I'm talking about obviously Whitney gets to be on the soundtrack,
but I mean you had Brandy, you had a Wretha
Shaka Khan TLC. I mean like and Mary J. Blige. Yes,
I mean it was a soundtrack for the Ages, like
for real. And I'm not going to start singing along
here right now. We can if you want to, but

(52:20):
I mean, like seriously, like not not exactly if I've done,
not gonna cry karaoke before. It's a lot, it's emotional.
The one thing that we didn't quite hit on was
Donald Fazon's reaction to finding out his father is gay.
Like it it is a weird, it is not good. Yeah, Basically,

(52:42):
what happens is Gloria accidentally out David and she realizes
that she's made a mistake. To be fair, she's shocked
because she just saw Donald Fazon getting sucked off in
a shed pool house. So you're right, you're right. And
then his reaction is extremely bizarre because he uses a

(53:05):
series of homophobic slurs and then says it's all the
same thing, right, he doesn't totally minimize it, And then
it's like, well Lisa didn't running the family. Remember when
you saw me getting sucked up? Mom? I was like,
why is this the way this goes? Yeah? So and
then that never gets cleaned up or resolved or whatever

(53:26):
I mean, because like that's just it. Never he just
gets to go to Spain. Like that's how that ends.
So the I mean, the way this movie deals with
queerness is tooth thumbs down is not good. And I
would argue that there's a stylist character in Gloria's salon
who has queer coded because gay men can only be stylists,

(53:49):
as we see in every movie ever. But I will
I mean, like the gay black beaut you know, man
who's doing hair is very real and shout out to
all the ones that I've had in my life that
have kept me late. Um, I appreciate them now. I mean,
was he was he over the top of dramatic? Maybe?
But also do I know some black man doing hair

(54:13):
who are like absolutely absolutely so maybe I don't know
if they appreciated being seen in this film or not.
Obviously he's not representative all of all gay black men,
you know what I mean. So it's weird because it's
like seeing queer characters in this movie. Seeing queer characters
in movies in a way that isn't like they're a

(54:34):
punchline is something. It's something in the right direction, but
it just doesn't quite it doesn't go there, and it
doesn't fully realize this because he is like messy and
he's the one who like tells Bernardine's business to like
the rest of the girls. And you know, it's like
it's imagined. A movie is just not perfect. Right. My

(54:56):
last thing was I like this scene. This is just
a straight thought. I like the scene where Bernadine gets
mad and cuts her own hair because Gloria won't do it,
baldest woman in charge. That was yes, charge holds trip. Yeah,
you know when when a woman chops her hair off
watch out? Yeah, I mean, and get out of the way.
Get ready, she's going to war, right, yeah? No for real? Yeah,

(55:23):
all right, I think that it does this movie pass
the Bechdel test. A couple of very brief, like two
line exchanges. Yeah, seventeen year old Aaron would have sit
absolutely yeah, grown ass Errand says, I don't know. Well,

(55:50):
let me let me make a case for it. Savannah
at one point says nice house Bernadine. Bernadine says, you
know what, you know what, Kaitlin, you are really reaching
right now, you are really reaching. Okay, she responds at
five dollars, you can have it. Then they talk about

(56:12):
John for a few minutes, right, because this is a
conversation that's happening as her home video footage just playing
in the background. Yes, so that negates that. Next true,
Robin and Gloria have a brief conversation about manicures and
Robin's job because she because she's like blowing off work

(56:35):
to maybe get a manicure to please a man. Probably
Gloria was also going to charge her by the finger
for that polish. So I feel like that one passes.
I don't I don't know that. It's one of those
movies though that, like however many things we break down,
Like the subtext of the whole movie is men. So
it's like it just gets harder as the longer we

(56:57):
do this podcast, we're just like the subtext of every
of the world is men. Apparently, so special passes, damn
test Yeah, because yeah, I mean I was even thinking about,
like remember when Savannah Coss her mom and like her
mom is talking about her like financial situation. Yeah, I'm reaching.

(57:18):
It's I mean, I think name the mom's name, first name.
I don't think maybe that one. I don't think I
didn't care like moms. I think it all pass on
the bectal test. Mom, I don't know. I just Bernadine
and her daughter, who is named Nika talk about the words. Yes,

(57:41):
they do the word freakfically I think. I mean, I
think this movie does pass the vectial test a couple
of times, but I mean it's one of those things
where it's like, given the fact that the marketing of
this of this movie was like for women, like for
black women, and this is their friendship, it should pass
way more than it does. Yeah, so I mean it passes,

(58:02):
but not as much as it or any movie with
four female leads should shall be raid on our nipple scale,
let's do it. So in terms of like, I love
that there's a movie that's representative of four strong black
women who yes, do have many lapses and judgment throughout

(58:24):
the film, But because the movie isn't really the core
of the movie isn't so much about their friendship. It's
more about how these women are relating to men and
having relationships with men, and even when the women are together,
they're almost exclusively talking about men. So that is disappointing.
And there are like kind of those brief moments of

(58:45):
feminism where you know, Bernadine's like, I'm tired of like
not being able to pursue my own thing. I have
an MBA, damn it, Like I want to open a
catering business. But then she spends the rest of the
movie trying to have sex with married men, kind of
show her focusing on her caterer. That's where I thought
the story was going with her, but like that doesn't

(59:05):
even come up because his wife is dying, Like you're
shaking him down for alimony when you could be making
that cater in business. Hopefully she invests that one point
five million dollars in that business, so one can hope.
But yeah, so representation wise, because there are so few

(59:26):
movies with an all black cast like this. Uh, the
fact that it was financially successful that people got to
go see it is great. But the stories and while
the characters are like distinguishable, and you know, we see
representation of successful black women, which is unfortunately a rare

(59:47):
thing in mainstream movies. They are entirely framed around the
men in their lives and should have been more about
their friendship. I think, yeah, that success was limited because
they hadn't found love. Right. Yeah, So I'm gonna give it.
I'll give it a three nips. Well, right, I'm wrong, right, two? Okay,

(01:00:15):
I can crowdsource your opinion. Y'all see it, y'all see
it now. Look I've easily influenced. Uh. So what I
meant to say, I'm going to give it two and
a half nipples. This is my own thinking everyone's uh,
and I will give one to Angela Bassett, one to

(01:00:39):
Whitney Houston's singing voice and the soundtrack. Uh, and my
half nipple will go to Gloria and Robin there in
their friendship that we barely see you eron, what do
you say? M hmm. Yeah, I'm gonna go with two nipples.

(01:01:00):
One for Angela Bassett because I mean, she was just
everything in this movie, probably the best thing to meet
about this movie. And then one for Gloria because again
she's the only one that seems to have like a
positive you know, outcome by the end. So yeah, that
that's all the nipples I have for this movie. I'll go,

(01:01:22):
I'll go two and a half and just to tying
onto what everyone is saying, movies that are supposed to
be about female friendship that secretly aren't about female friendship
and are about the men and how they define their
lives are insidious and evil and don't do that. Come on, uh,
send given one to Angela, one to Gloria, and half
to that guy's dying wife. Give her a fucking break. Uh.

(01:01:48):
All right, Aaron, thank you so much for being here.
We are so thank you. Guys. Where can we find
you online? Can we find your work? So? I am
on Twitter very easy at e marvelous, and I am
on all my stories are on ap news dot com. Alright,

(01:02:11):
and you can find us on beckdel Cast across all
your platforms. Get t shirts, blah blah blah. There's a
show coming in. We love you so much. Give it
up for Kate Bamford and everyone, and give it up
for yours elve Hey everyone, it's Caitlin on behalf of
Jamie and I. We just wanted to give another shout

(01:02:33):
out to Kate Bamford and everyone at the Good Good
Comedy Theater. Thank you so much for having us there
and for letting us do our live show. We had
so much fun and to listeners, if you're ever in Philadelphia,
go and check that theater out. It's a great comedy
venue with a lot of great shows. Thank you against
so much to our guest, Aaron Haynes Whack. She was

(01:02:56):
so awesome and we had so much fun talking to her.
And then just the usual stuff. Quick reminder about our
West Coast tour. We still have tickets for our San
Francisco show. On January we are covering the Breakfast Club.
We have tickets to our show in Portland on January
we are covering Fight Club for that show, and then

(01:03:19):
on January in Seattle, Jamie and I are going to
be doing a stand up show and tickets to all
of those shows are on our website. So if you
go to back toelcast dot com and click on the
live appearances tub, you'll be able to find all the
links to get tickets to those shows. And then also
on our website is the link to our merch store,

(01:03:41):
or you could just go to t public dot com
slash the backtel Cast and that's where you'll find all
of our t shirts are sweatshirts are stickers and phone cases, mugs,
we've got pillows even whatever your little heart desires. Uh.
And then be on the lookout for some new designs
in the new year. Wow. And then, as always, you

(01:04:04):
can um follow us on social media at spectrol Cast.
Please rate and review us on iTunes and give us
a little five star or a five nipple rating because
that helps us out a lot. And then we just
wanted to say, from both of us, thank you so
much to you our listeners, for your ongoing support. It's

(01:04:24):
been a wild year, but you know we've really enjoyed
communicating with you online and hearing your suggestions for episodes
and everything like that. So thanks again and a happy
new year, and may all your new year's wishes come true.
All right bye,