September 7, 2025 • 39 mins
There are two different types of employees - one who stays low profile, gets what they need to get done, done, and goes home.
Then there's the other, who complains about anything they feel inconveniences them.
Is it true that the squeaky wheel get the grease? Or is this a great way to get yourself ruled out when it comes to opportunities and promotions?
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks by.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The Open Glasses, Bye.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Of His.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Money, Sample, Brow Wow, Western Classmann, tell mancent.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
And Welcome back or welcome inn. This is the Weekend
Collective on Tim Beverage and this is smart Money and
where we discussed all sorts of issues regarding money or
how to make it, how to earn it, and your
workplace and things. And today it's in particular we are
talking about issues to do with employment. And before I
introduce my guest, what we would have a bit of
(01:17):
a chat about is. Look, I think there are different
types of employees and of course employers. But when you
get employees who just stay low profile, their head down,
bump up, they get things, you know, get what need
to be done and then go home. And then there
are the other employees who are always making their presence
felt with management because not necessarily complaining, but engaging with
(01:42):
them and suggesting this and that, and constantly reminding management
that they are around. And the question is, I guess
for you, is it the squeaky wheel that gets the
grease or is there some sort of balance you need
to strike so you don't become How do we put
it a pain in the something to your managers who
(02:02):
can't wait to get shot of you. So is it
the squeaky wheel that gets the grease or is this
a great way to get yourself ruled out when it
comes to opportunities and promotions, or as being quiet and
just doing your job, is that a good way to
be ignored and ruling yourself out of further opportunities and promotions.
We're also going to have a chat about corporate culture
(02:23):
and whether in fact stated cultural ambitions and positions of
a company actually raally mean anything or are they just
sort of corporate posturing to please the board. We want
your cause on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text
nine two ninety two. And my guest he's probably seen
a bit of this over the years. As names Max White.
(02:44):
It is an employment relations expert. And Max is with me, No, Max,
how you going?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (02:48):
What an intro? I tell you what you know? Coupled
with that music for an intro working class?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
But is your theme now to me?
Speaker 5 (02:55):
But what you've just introduced is so common and it's
one of the heart, it's the heart of most problems
and workplaces. Is a bad culture?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Well? Actually, I guess that's the thing. When it comes
to a culture. You can get a firm who you know,
through the management, they express what the values of the
company are, but whether that actually is the value of
a company. I have a friend of mine who worked
for an IT company or quite a very large company
which had certain stated goals and the sort of place
(03:26):
they were as a workplace. But I think he at
times found that what was printed on the posters or
on the screens in the workplace when you log in
were bollocks when I came to what the place was.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
And I'm sure Tom, if you ask most people out there,
they'll say I've experienced the same hypocrisy with my boss.
You know, they'll have the slogans, but when it comes
to the practice, it doesn't often work, and that's where
the credibility starts to take a nosedive.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, And I think that's a question for not just
you as an employeees like what makes a good culture,
But if you are an employer or management, how do
you actually create a meaningful work culture where people turn
up and they love being there because you're just simply
a great place to work. Is how much control do
you even have of that, because you can employ people
(04:16):
based on their CVS and the fact that they've got
the skills and maybe they've managed to get a good
reference or two, but you might find that there's just
a level of toxicity which you'd never anticipated.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Now this is quite complicated, but actually in our society
we have a culture as well, and that really does
reflect into the workplace. Now, for example, this is an
old man speaking.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
This is me.
Speaker 5 (04:40):
What I'm saying here is what I experienced in the past.
Is you know, you get straight talking from our older people,
and that today that's untolerated. So you're not allowed these
days to criticize anybody, and if you do, that's offensive
and you're really causing problems. And you'll find a particularly
this generation coming through now, will not tolerate any criticism
(05:03):
at all. So that's what I I'm saying. Integrity is
important if you've got a culture where you're actually Kiwi's
love they quiet achiever. They do. Kiwis really do appreciate that.
But the facts are, if you're actually out alone, somebody
should be telling you get back into line, max because
you're actually stepping aside. But they don't these days, and
(05:26):
these people suddenly for and find themselves in a disciplinary process.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
It's a funny one, isn't it, Because I was just thinking,
I mean, I'm not going to talk too much about
my own workplace, but I guess I have to talk
about my own experience, and I couldn't, to be honest,
if I, with all apologies doing for management. Who's listening.
I don't really know what I couldn't tell you. Actually,
I'm not being around the bush. I couldn't tell you
what the values of the company are because I just
(05:52):
roll on. My own values at work now is to
conduct myself with the integrity and honesty. I mean that's
something that I've learned as a broadcaster as well as
you just try and be as upfront as possible, you
treat people with respect. But I don't know. I don't
need the company that I work for, Newstalk c B
or Enzi me to tell me what those values are
because and in fact, fact, if they conflicted, I'd just
(06:14):
I think I'd still just stick with what was important
to me. But because I just think that universal values
around getting on with people, I don't know. I don't
know how a company can even influence that anyway.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
Or term if you think about it, our educators are teachers.
People complain about them for not teaching their children ethics,
you know, simple things like you know, the Ten Commandments.
If you're like, they should not kill their should not
you know, do all this other stuff about swearing in
the workplace or or you know, trying to have it
off of your neighbor and all this sort of stuff.
(06:46):
That stuff's all covered in the Bible, if you like.
But those are the fundamental things of life. But our
teachers are asked to actually take the job of the
parent and teach those fundamental standards to a child. And
I actually think that belongs to the parent to do that,
and it should be and our society should be a
weight to that. Well, I think, I mean, there is
an other word to be. I mean, I think there
(07:07):
are universe. I mean, this is it gets to a
big of philosophical conversation. Isn't it about what what universal
values we should all treasure? I mean, if I really
want to try and connect it with a conversation, I've
just had a couple of hours ago. I interviewed Winston
Peters and one of his things that he wants New
Zealand New Zealand immigrants to sign up to is something
(07:31):
about Kiwi values And I mean, okay, whatever, whether we
like that idea or not, but it's there are certain
universal values I would have thought generally that most of
us share.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
But when I say that are we are we kidding ourselves?
I mean? Is there a role that companies need to
play in shaping the values of a workplace? I mean,
because for instance, it shouldn't need to be spelled out
that we should conduct ourselves with integrity and treat other
people with respect and be honest. I mean that's surely
there wouldn't be a company where would be like now on.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
This is not that important. But I can tell you though, Tim,
look at reality. You ask any of our callers that
come through, I guarantee they're going to say to you, Hey,
I don't have that experience in my workplace.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
We love your calls on this, I mean, of course,
I mean you might be in It's always difficult to
get calls sometimes because people think if they're going to
say something negative about their company or who they're working
with it. But you can text as well. But how
important is the company? Is a corporate culture? And corporate
is such a sterile word, isn't it? How important is
the culture of the workplace where you conduct your daily business?
(08:45):
How important is it to you? And I guess what
is it that makes a workplace have a culture that
makes you think, well, this is a place I want
to work? Or is it, generally in your experience an accident.
You can spell things out as much as you want,
You can have the employee of the months and all
sorts of things. But in the end, and is it
(09:06):
just a happy accident as to whether you're in a
place which has a culture that you enjoy?
Speaker 5 (09:11):
What about this tim practice? What you preach? If that
went to the CEO, could he do it? You know,
you've got these fundamental aspirations that you want for your staff.
Do you live up to them? You know, if I
went home and asked your partner or wife or whoever
it might be, I've got a wife, Yeah, quite safe,
(09:31):
they would she tell me the truth? Probably not? You know.
So culture is helpful when lived, but the moment it
becomes just a corporate slogan, it turns into warpaper. Nice
to look at, but meaningless.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I mean, I mean, what in your experience makes a
happy workplace? Because Obviously you're an employment relations expert. So
people don't generally come to MAX because they're having a
great time at work. There's a problem going on. I mean,
do you see common themes where it's not just necessarily
the treatment of an individual, but you look at a
company and you speak to an individual and you think, gosh,
(10:08):
this is symptomatic of a bigger problem in the whole
company culture.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Yeah. Yeah, I do see it all the time. So really,
when it comes down from the top, that's where it
seems to be. Make a big difference if you see
a senior manager compromising the rules in some regard, you know,
like I used to work in an oil refinery where
you had to wear hard hats everywhere. But suddenly one
of the managers kept strolling across the quadrum without a
(10:35):
head a heart hat on. I mean he was saying
to us, well, I'm too important to wear a hard hat.
I mean, there, your respect suddenly goes out the window,
doesn't it. And that's a very blunt example of hypocrisy.
And also I'm special.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Actually funny, funny enough, you just reminded me of Winston again,
because there was that story where he went to was
it the opening of not the opening but a sort
of a preview of the City rail Link, and they
said he had to wear a heart hat or a
safety vest and really didn't want to. I didn't. I
don't know. I just sort of thought, Hell, this is
(11:11):
a you know, the public visit. It's well signposted what
we're doing here. Surely I don't need to wear a vest.
But in the end he did.
Speaker 6 (11:18):
He did.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
Yeah, yeah, you've got to call it and you've got
to do the right thing. And I think if you go,
if you want everyone else to do the same one
or to act safely, but then you've got to be
And that's why culture, culture is really important. But getting
back to the squeaky wheel thing, Oh yeah, that's where
we started. We moved on to culture.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Sorry, I sort of I sort of mentioned a couple
of things we could talk about. But whether it's the
squeaky wheel that gets the grease or whether you're better
I mean in terms of managing employees, managing their relationship
with their employers and vice versa. Actually, because their employers
who constantly micromanage every step of the way, what's the
happy medium.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Well, it's it's it's not I mean the quiet achiever.
There's a lot of key weason. We prefer that we'd
actually like someone who just gets on with the job
and doesn't sit there and brag, but they're missing opportunities
oft and that happens. So quite often you'll see someone
who's actually good at their job and gets results a
bypass when it comes to promotional or a wage increase,
(12:14):
where a noisy one will get it. So what the
answer to this is, you've got to be both. So
you really should be the quite achiever achieve your goals.
But then with the squeaky wheel, you've got to know
when to raise it with your boss and grab those
opportunities and say to them, hey, I look what I've
achieved here.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I can't help but think of a particular song. Oh,
you got to know when to hold them again. But
it really that is I mean, managing your relationship with
the workplace is knowing when you should speak up and
when it's time to and when to hold and know
when to run.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
And do you know what to make out your money?
Makes people strategic advice every day, particularly when they are
in the poohs or you know, like they are actually
going through a disciplinary and I say to them sometimes
you got the symptom which is negative to your boss,
hold it, do not go and spill it out first way,
or if they've made a procedural mistake, now is not
(13:13):
the time to play it.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
What do you mean, Oh, you keep those cards up
your sleeve.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
Keep them up your sleeve. So that's from that old song.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well that sounds good. That does sound.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
Strategically, it'd be very very smart and put you in
a very happy place later on.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Does sound machiavelian, doesn't it? Okay? So there's a couple
of questions for you there. And by the way, Max
is an employment relations expert, so if you have any
question about your employment that you are seeking some advice on,
then you can give Max a call on eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty right now. But the couple of
the questions, just to get the conversation going, is how
(13:47):
important is corporate culture to you enjoying your job? And
the second one is what what approach do you take
to being in the workplace? So you do you keep
a constant dialogue up with your management or do you
just get the job done and keep on and just
get on with it? It depends I guess it depends
(14:08):
how much you enjoy what you're doing as well.
Speaker 5 (14:09):
Your intro was excellent on this, and I excited me.
I thought it.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Good on you. Max. There's our culture of mutual compliment, admiration,
mutual admiration. I eight hundred and eighty ten and eighty
text nine two nine two. We'll be back in just
a moment. It's twenty one past five. It's Newstalk. Se'd
be with Tim Beverage with Max Whitehead. We're talking about
corporate culture and also the squeaky wheel, get in the
grease and how do you manage yourself in the workplace.
(14:36):
By the way, just I suddenly thought of an example
before we go to our first caller where corporate culture
and the rules about the way you conduct yourself actually
do have to be adhered to. So obviously in the media,
my values would overlap with what ends of me wants
from me. They want me to be honest and forthright
and enact with integrity. But there would be a classic
example where in retail, the cust so the value of
(15:01):
a particular store or chain, will have a rule that
the customer is always right. And that is an example
where you might want to tell a customer that they're
being complete pain in the backside. But you have to
suck it up because that's the value, and that's essential
to you doing your job, isn't it, Matt.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
But there's a couple of things in that too. I mean,
integrity is important as well. So like if you say
that you're selling a car and the guy comes up
and says, I want a black one, though, you need
to say black's really cool. It looks really great, but
it's very hard to keep because it gets dirty very
quickly and dusty. Oh. You know that integrity just refining there.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Doesn't it. Yeah. But if somebody says I'm not complaining
about something that's wrong with something, they're not happy and
you think that they're being unreasonable, especially I guess in
the restaurant business and things like that.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
You know, I just got to take it back. Can
I have my money back or something? Yeah, I'm just
eating it all.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Leave it to the boss to make the call around
whether they have to throw someone out or not. Anyway, Bob, Hello,
how are you doing?
Speaker 7 (16:03):
Hey, Bob, good evening, gentlemen. Great to have a chat.
I thought i'd you know, it was just sat in
the car and listening to you guys talking about honesty
and integrity in the workplace, and I thought, huh, I
have an example or two. I mean my experience, I've
worked in four multinational corporations so far and thirty eight
(16:25):
years of age, and my experience always has been, you know,
corporates get a bad name and a bad rip for
a reason, each and every corporate. I mean, I'd give
you a little homework exercise going to any of the
corporate's values and they'll have the words honesty and integrity
and it's the same she bang. But I agree what
(16:48):
what they say and what they do or two different things.
They do really take care of the frontline staff. Me
being in middle management, my experience is when it comes
to managers and if there's any toxicity and senior management,
it's next to impossible that you get attention from HR.
(17:08):
But they really do take care of their frontline stuff.
So is it important?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (17:14):
Does it actually happen? When I say it, I'm referring
to companies sticking to their values up in my experience, No,
do you.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
Know what, Bob, you would in my experience, you'll find
the ground floor workers will say that middle management get
the attention. We don't from HR because we end up
getting disciplined and sorted out and told off. And whereas
middle management go and do something critical, they don't seem
to be no one seems to care.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I guess. So the question I want to follow up
with Bob is because I think it can be a
bit hit or miss whether a company lives up to
its own standards in the way management conduct themselves. But
does it really matter to you what the stated culture
of a company is or do you just start the
job see how it goes. Luckily, the two or three
people or five or ten people you work with a
great and who cares what the company is like because
(18:06):
your immediate contacts are great fun mm hmmm.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
And then the interview process you have to align your
values with the organizations and with the job market being
so tough. That's a job tip as well. You have
to say that in the interview. Whether it's the truth
or not you believe it, believe in that or not
is a difference.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Have you ever had a conflict with a corporate culture.
We've looked at something and go on, this is nonsense,
but I'll say it.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Good question.
Speaker 7 (18:31):
Yeah, Yes, the previous job that I had. They spoke
about trusting, and they spoke about trusting each other, trusting
your colleagues, even if they're from a different department, being collaborative.
But the entire company. When I say the entire company,
I mean regardless of which department you worked with. Nobody
(18:52):
was collaborative. There was no good face, but nobody did
anything about it.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, did you have to? Did you? Well, here's an
interesting one. I mean, because as an individual, you might
be slow to trust people because trust is earned, it's
not just given. And that's a tough one. If they
say you must trust all your colleagues, you might I
mean the honest part of me be like, well, I
will up to a point, but I'm not gonna lay
(19:20):
my future on the line because that's a tricky one.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
Well, safety, for example, there's a very good example to
prove that point. Yeah, in terms of trust, I would
agree with you. It's going to be earned. I think
it's a very good, good, good point.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Thank cheers, Bobby. Anything asked you want to add before
we went?
Speaker 7 (19:38):
I think Winston Peter's Look, I'm not a big political person,
but don't know much about him. But if he's talking
about values and you know, before getting anyone in the country.
And I'm an immigrant myself, I think yes, one hundred percent,
as long as it's done in good faith and good intentions. Yes,
we should educate people we're bringing in about KIP value.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
And notify them what we expect of them. I think
that's that is an employer's obligation. It's the biggest job
and to get it, where do your part your care?
You know those fundamental ones.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Thanks for call, Bob. Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
is a number. John, Hello, Hey John?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, Hi, how's it going, guys?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Good?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
A mind slightly off the topic that you currently are
right currently on at the moment. But I've got a
situation regarding on call work. We've had our on call
stuff restructured and yeah, so I was just kind of
wondering with what we get accepted, like do we have
(20:40):
to accept the offer from the employer? And who determines what's.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
The unreasonable depends. It depends on what the on call work.
It depends exactly what it is. So John, if on
calls mentioned in your employment agreement, that's sacriscine. No one
can touch that unless there's an agreement between the two parties.
But if on call work is dictated to by their policy,
then the employer does have a right to vary it
(21:06):
upon notice, So giving you reasonable notice before they actually
require you to follow that on call thing. But this
affects money, does it? John?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Well, basically because everything was under restructure when I started,
so there was nothing outlined as in, there's no real
breakdown on what was basically the payment structure for the
on call work and what was and wasn't.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Oh, that's not acceptable. I think if there's money to
be made in terms of that, it's going to be
transparent right from the outset. And I think it's a
reasonable call for you to ask for that. You just
put it in respectful language, but certainly be saying all right,
so if we do on call work, what's the payment
going to be in regards to that. I think your
(21:54):
colleagues would support you with that reasonable question as well.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
John, Well, it's just start kind of being there longer
than me and haven't really pushed back to much.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
John, Just for the just for the listeners, can you
explain what on call work means?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Okay, So for us, we do a normal forty hour
week and then we're rosted on call for basically Monday
to Monday. So that's basically covering over time, yeah basically, well, yeah,
it would be over time if you're actually working. But yeah,
(22:34):
so we're required weekdays to be on call from a
five o'clock to seven o'clock I think it is, and
then twenty four hours Saturday Sunday. Yeah, and yeah, so
I have read because we have to be available as
in like we have to respond that those hours may
(22:56):
be considered as workouts. I don't know if that's true
or not, because yeah, basically we're.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
Well, then you should be paid for being on call
if you're on standby. There there is law in regards
to this that if you're on standby, then there should
be at least the minimum wage paid. Is a minimum?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Is that for every hour?
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Though? Well, it should be if you're on call. I
mean that means you have to be really willing and
available to be and sober and to jump in and
go to work immediately. Then there should be some payment
in regards to that, and they could call an allowance.
I think it's a reason.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
What sort of work are you in? Can you tell us?
Or are you too close to the bone.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
It's a building maintenance roll.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Okay. Yeah. The on call thing is interesting because if
doctors are on call, for instance, you get a certain
rate and then you get more when you're called in
to do something.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
And some people sleep on the job. They're entitled to sleep,
but if they're called in the night, they have to respond.
But normally, now what's been required in the court case
in those particular cases is that they should be paid
for actually being on call.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
It takes more calls speaking, which because we are on
call right now.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Literally Fred, Hello, Hello, Fred.
Speaker 8 (24:07):
Good good, Max, how are you guys afternoon?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Very good?
Speaker 8 (24:13):
Cant up on a couple of points quickly. I agree
with Max when you said this generation is, let's put
it there's from me, somewhat different to the old school
way you're doing things. Well, what I really wanted to
talk about, if I can, is a previous company I
worked for them, and transport and anyway, definitely a double
(24:34):
standard culture where just as an example, no smoking in vehicles,
buildings or forkliffs or whatever. So you drive and truck
your under camera surveillance, you get order very good, but
the forks are running around the deck all night smoking
way merrily under camera surveillance and that's not a problem.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Ah yeah, you've got to say there's some hypocrisy in that,
isn't there? I mean, but mind you, I guess what's
the reason for the smoking policy is to make sure
that the caves are clean and fresh air, whereas perhaps
the folklift drivers in open air.
Speaker 8 (25:13):
No, these guys are all in.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I mean.
Speaker 8 (25:17):
Again, they're running Diesel Falklands, so the smoking is neither
an issue whichever which way, because I can't can't compete
with the diesel games. But what actually wanted to talk
about was the branch that I was working in. The
manager there is a right individual.
Speaker 6 (25:40):
Who knows what I mean there we all know and Fred.
Speaker 8 (25:45):
Now this guy is almost teflot. I worked with the
company for five years. I went to his boss, I
went even higher, I went to HR. I ended up
having a whore and great row with the general manager
and support of the other guys and the branch and
(26:06):
the end of it, I just beat my head against
the wall and so I quit. I failed, and I'm
now in another job where I'm extremely happy. However, a
lot of my mates are still stuck in this job.
What can they do? To get this guy to move.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah, Fred, did you try and put that in writing?
Because I tell you what, HR hate that you put
something in writing to them, and that means that there
is a record that you've made that complaint. Otherwise you'll
come back to this matter and say it manifest itself
into a real health and safety problem for somebody. They
will go Fred, No, I don't think Fred ever raised it. No, No,
(26:47):
but you've got in writing and there's evidence you've raised it,
and they haven't failed in their duty and they should
in their duty.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
What about if Fred's worried about putting in writing book
and then therefore labeling himself as in some people's eyes,
as a troublemaker.
Speaker 5 (27:02):
Oh no, Fred's already got that because he's gone right
to the top and him gone higher. So you know
HRM management.
Speaker 8 (27:13):
Yeah, the thing is, there was one incident where cut
a long story short vehicle broke down. I ended up
having a waited, awkward quite sometimes got ferry back up north.
So I've been going for about sixteen eighteen hours and
the manager decides that's going to be the point when
he's going to tue me a new one, and I
(27:35):
literally lost the plot the AI thing I didn't do
was flattening and I was so tempered. But that one
I then put into writing to Hr he got a
smack over the peak because he was told not you
had me.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
A naughty boy. Don't So to answer your question before, Fred,
get your colleagues to put it in writing, and even
you can support it. But certainly I think say to them,
this is a problem. It's been around since the good
old Fred days.
Speaker 8 (28:03):
Yeah, I mean, this guy's great on paper, and that's
the problem. His part of the job is probably more
financial and computerized that but he doesn't assist the guys
in any way, shape or form nat do the work.
He takes a credit for it. So that's one of
those circumstances. But yeah, I'll take that advice on board.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Max, Thank you, jeers, Fred, thanks thanks mate. Take it easy.
We're going to take quick moment and taking more calls,
and we've got quite a few texts and as often
when the employment situations, things can be a little bit
more nerve wracking to go on air and talk to
the whole country about it. So we've got a few
texts to deal with, which we'll get onto in just
a moment. We're with Max whitehere talking about generally how
(28:49):
relevant is the corporate culture to the way you conduct
your business when you are at work? Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty and lots of other questions around that.
It's twenty two minutes to six. Yes, news talks'll be
talking about employment, workplace culture, corporate culture, that sort of thing.
How important does this do to do your job or
do you just rely on your own ethics, et cetera,
et cetera. Lots of texts, so here's one here. One
(29:11):
is just by the way, this person saying wants you
to send contact details if you want to get in
touch with Max. We won't be emailing you separately. But
if you're listening now.
Speaker 5 (29:23):
Two one twenty four to seven ninety three ninety three.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Two one twenty four seven ninety three ninety three. Because
this person says, there've been someone to a meeting with
my almost sound satirical the number of initials here. I've
been someone to a meeting with my executive GM of
HR and hsee. But I spoke up because of my
integrity and personal values. When the process was flawed, I
spoke up to try and advise the management and it
(29:48):
has put me in the cross hairs. And that raises
the question that if you are if you do see
something that's going wrong, how does a company set up
its HR processes so it can be trusted?
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Very dificult because who pays HR obviously paid by the boss.
So where's their loyalty and where they are interested in
retaining their employment as well? So if they started working
with the employees, you'll find that they certainly be big,
big questions asked of their integrat well that they're not
not so much integrity, but they're loyalty.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, someone is in a big company and they've got
a problem with someone who's well up the food chain,
is there any way of actually addressing that or they
just have to leave?
Speaker 5 (30:33):
I think put it in writing and then sit back
and nothing happens. Then you've got a record that you've
actually raised it. And if something manifests itself, as I said,
gets in the worse situation where perhaps an individual and
this does happen, has a mental breakdown.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
What are the obligations of confidentiality if someone's well, there's
whistleblowing stuff, which isn't it on the really serious stuff?
But what are the obligations generally of companies to respect
confidentiality if you request.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
It, okay, And that's a good question, because HR make
a real mess of this quite they're doing an a
instigation or an investigations undertaken. The individual will say to them,
their employee will say, look, I'm happy to tell you,
but don't tell anyone I've told you this, blah blah
blah blah, and HR are very very keen to hear
what they've got to say. But the facts are they
(31:19):
can't use that information, so it's actually useless to them.
But they're going to breach their confidentiality and use it.
I mean, it's just a hypocrisy again. And that's where
people start to lose trust.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So what should someone in an organization do if they've
got something they want to complain about, but they don't
want their highly placed boss to know that they have
said something because they want to put tag on their boat.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
And you can go over their head if you say
the two levels up I have done it. I'd go to
the CEO and write a letter and say, look, I
haven't raised this with this individual concern, but these are
my observations, and I think it's of concern that whereupon
you may have to do an investigation.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Do you have to expressly say in the letter expect
confidentiality in this or not? Because you can try to
see him, I might see, I might go I got
this hey, Hey, you know, hey, Dave, I got this
letter from Bob about you. He's not very happy. It's
all downhill.
Speaker 5 (32:19):
Well it is. It is downhill, and it happens. What
you've just painted there happens very very regularly. So confidentially, yes,
you can ask for it, but whether you're going to
get it or not because they can't act on.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
It, what's what are the rules around confidentiality if is
there some sort of law in a workplace that if
you say to someone, I'm expressing this problem in assistance,
I want confidentiality, what if they breach that?
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Is there any Well you imagine HR person who's been
told something that's going to put somebody's life at risk
and don't tell anyone that's come from me. And yet
that is the person who's observed it, seen it in
its actual fact, I mean the HR person can't act
on it and saying well there's rumors that this is
going on, I mean, that's just got no meat on
the sandwich at all. It's just words.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Okay, here's some more texts. I think. I think the
happy middle ground is always the way, Tom. If you're
a pain, this is about the squeaky way. If you're
a pain and always complaining, it doesn't matter how good
you are, you won't be sought after for promotions. But
engaging with management in a constructive way definitely helps. Alongside
being able to get the job done well. Not being
able to accept criticism is another negative. But that's honestly
(33:29):
a pain in the butt as a manager. How on
a second, I've got to scroll down here. As a manager,
it's critical to foster a culture where employees can come
to you with ideas and complaints. They're on the front
line and getting them to come up with ideas that
you implement and give credit for does absolute wonders for
business productivity and every aspect. I actually think that that's
probably quite a common fault that managers who like to
(33:52):
be seen. You know, the best thing you can do
is give credit to other people for great ideas, isn't it. Now?
Speaker 5 (33:57):
Look from an HR perspective, they get inundated all day
with people with complaints, and that's why they just roll
their eyes every time, because some of them just go nowhere.
I mean, it's just a personal grudge they might have
against an individual, So that's where they become immune to
it almost so they just become a numb to it
and actually half ignore most of them, which is really
a problem in itself, because that's about again about integrity.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Here's a question from Rosie who hasn't found because she
wants to be discrete a query pleas as on base
income and commission an advised commission. Payment will be delayed
two weeks, so she's earned a commission and she's not
getting paid obviously when she expects to be paid. Any
comment on that, well, two weeks doesn't sound radical.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
No, it doesn't sound radical, particularly in the today's environment,
because I mean, the redundancies are happening just out there.
Just places are really suffering financially. So a two week delay,
I would say, if it's in the employment contract, you
could make a fuss about it, but I would suggest
you give them two weeks and save it. It goes
over that limit, I may have to get external advice
(35:01):
for intervention.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Here. Okay, here's another one. Amax what's the deal if
you were terminated from a job that they terminated you
and allowed it to be recorded as a resignation, and
then you apply for another job within the same group
organization that your company wishes to get your employment record
from the previous company from the same group, and they
ask for information on your employment history, can they reveal
any information about well, basically, can they tell them you're sacked?
(35:24):
I think so.
Speaker 5 (35:24):
The Privacy Act protects you in that regard. Your boss
can't release any information about you unless you give them permission.
Your previous employer you can do ye.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
So if you've been sacked for whatever reason and you
say to the people have sacked you, you can't tell
anyone about this, Yes, then your next employee is none
the wiser. Are there exceptions to that? If you've been
done for?
Speaker 5 (35:46):
The employers breach that regularly because they talk to other
employees and they all help each other out in.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
The body, they'd use a subtle thing like our recommendation
would not be to you if.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
You came to it and said would we re employ
that person? That we wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Ah, that's the length, that's the subtlety of it. Yeah,
and keep and count the number of pends on your
desk when you've been from me.
Speaker 5 (36:07):
I remember that. I'm actually looking in my pin now
I'm thinking it's going to disappear.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
We'll be back in a moment. It's ten to this
news talk, said b We got a couple of minutes
to go. We got one more quarter to a take.
So Mickey will keep it brief. But how are you going?
Speaker 6 (36:20):
Hey Mickey, Yeah, yeah, good afternoon, gentlemen. How are you?
I'll keep it a brief as I can. I started
to do with a company two years ago at a
contract to do a certain job. Now I'm kind of
liking control of all kinds of work, included working high
self and safety on ropes and everything. And I asked
(36:41):
for a review. Everyone at a review, and I asked
my boss canarver review and he said, no, you don't
need one, And yeah, it's just a bit of pressure
on me.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
And so Micky, the thing for you, what you should
do is write it up. Because what you've just told
us about a couple of things that you're now like
doing health and safety, you're now doing HR you're down.
I would assume recruiting, you're managing people these are attributes
that people don't often have the skills to do. So
you've got some leadership skills here, tell them this is
(37:14):
the time. We were talking before about the squeaky wheel.
This is the time, and you take it to your boss.
You don't have to tell everybody else.
Speaker 6 (37:21):
Yeah, yeah, my problem is every now and again, so
I'll get a lot of tap on the shoulder and say,
you know, good for what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
But yeah, a salary review, you want some more money.
Speaker 6 (37:34):
No, I'll get paid weekly. But it's the pressure that's
been for me now is I had to organize trip
SP's the set work situations up, working heights and all
the rest of it. And and you know, so was
McKean all the rest of it. But I don't feel.
Speaker 5 (37:53):
If you want money, don't you that's what that's what?
Speaker 6 (37:58):
Yeah? Sorry, yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
So then put that put that document together and put
some time into it, and don't show everyone else. Just
take it to the man who makes the decisions. Hey, Mickey, thanks,
really good question.
Speaker 6 (38:11):
Appreciate Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
God on you, Good on you. But it sounds like
they've just taken the Mickey, I'm sorry that was an
accidental expression. But they are taking the I can't think
of the other expression, sorry, Mickey, what is it taking
the mind? They're taking liberties with you, Mickey? There we go,
There we go. So do stand up for yourself especially.
I mean it sounds like he's like on a week
by week sort of contract. He does all these things
(38:34):
and they're just no, we'll just leave it.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
As he sounds stressed as well, so they're piling stuff
at him and he's it's going to cost him eventually.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
If you do want to get a bit of help
from Max, then what was the number one? Three? Jeez?
Do it again?
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Because it's twenty four seven ninety three ninety three, which
I remember because the tep scare is ninety two ninety two. Anyway, Max, Hay,
good to see you so much, And if you want
to catch up with any of the hours you missed,
please go and look for the Weekend Collective on news
Talk said be Dot, Curtin and Zaid. We load every
hour up. I tell you what you really want to
listen to. Listen to me Chasing My Tale around with
Stuart Nash and the politics and division last to three
(39:14):
are great fun there anyway. Sunday at six is next.
Thanks for my producer, Ty Award, good stuff and we'll
look forward to your company same time next weekend. Have
a great evening, good night everyon.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk Said B weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks by.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The Open Glasses, Bye.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Of His.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Money, Sample, Brow Wow, Western Classmann, tell mancent.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
And Welcome back or welcome inn. This is the Weekend
Collective on Tim Beverage and this is smart Money and
where we discussed all sorts of issues regarding money or
how to make it, how to earn it, and your
workplace and things. And today it's in particular we are
talking about issues to do with employment. And before I
introduce my guest, what we would have a bit of
(01:17):
a chat about is. Look, I think there are different
types of employees and of course employers. But when you
get employees who just stay low profile, their head down,
bump up, they get things, you know, get what need
to be done and then go home. And then there
are the other employees who are always making their presence
felt with management because not necessarily complaining, but engaging with
(01:42):
them and suggesting this and that, and constantly reminding management
that they are around. And the question is, I guess
for you, is it the squeaky wheel that gets the
grease or is there some sort of balance you need
to strike so you don't become How do we put
it a pain in the something to your managers who
(02:02):
can't wait to get shot of you. So is it
the squeaky wheel that gets the grease or is this
a great way to get yourself ruled out when it
comes to opportunities and promotions, or as being quiet and
just doing your job, is that a good way to
be ignored and ruling yourself out of further opportunities and promotions.
We're also going to have a chat about corporate culture
(02:23):
and whether in fact stated cultural ambitions and positions of
a company actually raally mean anything or are they just
sort of corporate posturing to please the board. We want
your cause on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text
nine two ninety two. And my guest he's probably seen
a bit of this over the years. As names Max White.
(02:44):
It is an employment relations expert. And Max is with me, No, Max,
how you going?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (02:48):
What an intro? I tell you what you know? Coupled
with that music for an intro working class?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
But is your theme now to me?
Speaker 5 (02:55):
But what you've just introduced is so common and it's
one of the heart, it's the heart of most problems
and workplaces. Is a bad culture?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Well? Actually, I guess that's the thing. When it comes
to a culture. You can get a firm who you know,
through the management, they express what the values of the
company are, but whether that actually is the value of
a company. I have a friend of mine who worked
for an IT company or quite a very large company
which had certain stated goals and the sort of place
(03:26):
they were as a workplace. But I think he at
times found that what was printed on the posters or
on the screens in the workplace when you log in
were bollocks when I came to what the place was.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
And I'm sure Tom, if you ask most people out there,
they'll say I've experienced the same hypocrisy with my boss.
You know, they'll have the slogans, but when it comes
to the practice, it doesn't often work, and that's where
the credibility starts to take a nosedive.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, And I think that's a question for not just
you as an employeees like what makes a good culture,
But if you are an employer or management, how do
you actually create a meaningful work culture where people turn
up and they love being there because you're just simply
a great place to work. Is how much control do
you even have of that, because you can employ people
(04:16):
based on their CVS and the fact that they've got
the skills and maybe they've managed to get a good
reference or two, but you might find that there's just
a level of toxicity which you'd never anticipated.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Now this is quite complicated, but actually in our society
we have a culture as well, and that really does
reflect into the workplace. Now, for example, this is an
old man speaking.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
This is me.
Speaker 5 (04:40):
What I'm saying here is what I experienced in the past.
Is you know, you get straight talking from our older people,
and that today that's untolerated. So you're not allowed these
days to criticize anybody, and if you do, that's offensive
and you're really causing problems. And you'll find a particularly
this generation coming through now, will not tolerate any criticism
(05:03):
at all. So that's what I I'm saying. Integrity is
important if you've got a culture where you're actually Kiwi's
love they quiet achiever. They do. Kiwis really do appreciate that.
But the facts are, if you're actually out alone, somebody
should be telling you get back into line, max because
you're actually stepping aside. But they don't these days, and
(05:26):
these people suddenly for and find themselves in a disciplinary process.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
It's a funny one, isn't it, Because I was just thinking,
I mean, I'm not going to talk too much about
my own workplace, but I guess I have to talk
about my own experience, and I couldn't, to be honest,
if I, with all apologies doing for management. Who's listening.
I don't really know what I couldn't tell you. Actually,
I'm not being around the bush. I couldn't tell you
what the values of the company are because I just
(05:52):
roll on. My own values at work now is to
conduct myself with the integrity and honesty. I mean that's
something that I've learned as a broadcaster as well as
you just try and be as upfront as possible, you
treat people with respect. But I don't know. I don't
need the company that I work for, Newstalk c B
or Enzi me to tell me what those values are
because and in fact, fact, if they conflicted, I'd just
(06:14):
I think I'd still just stick with what was important
to me. But because I just think that universal values
around getting on with people, I don't know. I don't
know how a company can even influence that anyway.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
Or term if you think about it, our educators are teachers.
People complain about them for not teaching their children ethics,
you know, simple things like you know, the Ten Commandments.
If you're like, they should not kill their should not
you know, do all this other stuff about swearing in
the workplace or or you know, trying to have it
off of your neighbor and all this sort of stuff.
(06:46):
That stuff's all covered in the Bible, if you like.
But those are the fundamental things of life. But our
teachers are asked to actually take the job of the
parent and teach those fundamental standards to a child. And
I actually think that belongs to the parent to do that,
and it should be and our society should be a
weight to that. Well, I think, I mean, there is
an other word to be. I mean, I think there
(07:07):
are universe. I mean, this is it gets to a
big of philosophical conversation. Isn't it about what what universal
values we should all treasure? I mean, if I really
want to try and connect it with a conversation, I've
just had a couple of hours ago. I interviewed Winston
Peters and one of his things that he wants New
Zealand New Zealand immigrants to sign up to is something
(07:31):
about Kiwi values And I mean, okay, whatever, whether we
like that idea or not, but it's there are certain
universal values I would have thought generally that most of
us share.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
But when I say that are we are we kidding ourselves?
I mean? Is there a role that companies need to
play in shaping the values of a workplace? I mean,
because for instance, it shouldn't need to be spelled out
that we should conduct ourselves with integrity and treat other
people with respect and be honest. I mean that's surely
there wouldn't be a company where would be like now on.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
This is not that important. But I can tell you though, Tim,
look at reality. You ask any of our callers that
come through, I guarantee they're going to say to you, Hey,
I don't have that experience in my workplace.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
We love your calls on this, I mean, of course,
I mean you might be in It's always difficult to
get calls sometimes because people think if they're going to
say something negative about their company or who they're working
with it. But you can text as well. But how
important is the company? Is a corporate culture? And corporate
is such a sterile word, isn't it? How important is
the culture of the workplace where you conduct your daily business?
(08:45):
How important is it to you? And I guess what
is it that makes a workplace have a culture that
makes you think, well, this is a place I want
to work? Or is it, generally in your experience an accident.
You can spell things out as much as you want,
You can have the employee of the months and all
sorts of things. But in the end, and is it
(09:06):
just a happy accident as to whether you're in a
place which has a culture that you enjoy?
Speaker 5 (09:11):
What about this tim practice? What you preach? If that
went to the CEO, could he do it? You know,
you've got these fundamental aspirations that you want for your staff.
Do you live up to them? You know, if I
went home and asked your partner or wife or whoever
it might be, I've got a wife, Yeah, quite safe,
(09:31):
they would she tell me the truth? Probably not? You know.
So culture is helpful when lived, but the moment it
becomes just a corporate slogan, it turns into warpaper. Nice
to look at, but meaningless.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I mean, I mean, what in your experience makes a
happy workplace? Because Obviously you're an employment relations expert. So
people don't generally come to MAX because they're having a
great time at work. There's a problem going on. I mean,
do you see common themes where it's not just necessarily
the treatment of an individual, but you look at a
company and you speak to an individual and you think, gosh,
(10:08):
this is symptomatic of a bigger problem in the whole
company culture.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Yeah. Yeah, I do see it all the time. So really,
when it comes down from the top, that's where it
seems to be. Make a big difference if you see
a senior manager compromising the rules in some regard, you know,
like I used to work in an oil refinery where
you had to wear hard hats everywhere. But suddenly one
of the managers kept strolling across the quadrum without a
(10:35):
head a heart hat on. I mean he was saying
to us, well, I'm too important to wear a hard hat.
I mean, there, your respect suddenly goes out the window,
doesn't it. And that's a very blunt example of hypocrisy.
And also I'm special.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Actually funny, funny enough, you just reminded me of Winston again,
because there was that story where he went to was
it the opening of not the opening but a sort
of a preview of the City rail Link, and they
said he had to wear a heart hat or a
safety vest and really didn't want to. I didn't. I
don't know. I just sort of thought, Hell, this is
(11:11):
a you know, the public visit. It's well signposted what
we're doing here. Surely I don't need to wear a vest.
But in the end he did.
Speaker 6 (11:18):
He did.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
Yeah, yeah, you've got to call it and you've got
to do the right thing. And I think if you go,
if you want everyone else to do the same one
or to act safely, but then you've got to be
And that's why culture, culture is really important. But getting
back to the squeaky wheel thing, Oh yeah, that's where
we started. We moved on to culture.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Sorry, I sort of I sort of mentioned a couple
of things we could talk about. But whether it's the
squeaky wheel that gets the grease or whether you're better
I mean in terms of managing employees, managing their relationship
with their employers and vice versa. Actually, because their employers
who constantly micromanage every step of the way, what's the
happy medium.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Well, it's it's it's not I mean the quiet achiever.
There's a lot of key weason. We prefer that we'd
actually like someone who just gets on with the job
and doesn't sit there and brag, but they're missing opportunities
oft and that happens. So quite often you'll see someone
who's actually good at their job and gets results a
bypass when it comes to promotional or a wage increase,
(12:14):
where a noisy one will get it. So what the
answer to this is, you've got to be both. So
you really should be the quite achiever achieve your goals.
But then with the squeaky wheel, you've got to know
when to raise it with your boss and grab those
opportunities and say to them, hey, I look what I've
achieved here.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I can't help but think of a particular song. Oh,
you got to know when to hold them again. But
it really that is I mean, managing your relationship with
the workplace is knowing when you should speak up and
when it's time to and when to hold and know
when to run.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
And do you know what to make out your money?
Makes people strategic advice every day, particularly when they are
in the poohs or you know, like they are actually
going through a disciplinary and I say to them sometimes
you got the symptom which is negative to your boss,
hold it, do not go and spill it out first way,
or if they've made a procedural mistake, now is not
(13:13):
the time to play it.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
What do you mean, Oh, you keep those cards up
your sleeve.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
Keep them up your sleeve. So that's from that old song.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well that sounds good. That does sound.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
Strategically, it'd be very very smart and put you in
a very happy place later on.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Does sound machiavelian, doesn't it? Okay? So there's a couple
of questions for you there. And by the way, Max
is an employment relations expert, so if you have any
question about your employment that you are seeking some advice on,
then you can give Max a call on eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty right now. But the couple of
the questions, just to get the conversation going, is how
(13:47):
important is corporate culture to you enjoying your job? And
the second one is what what approach do you take
to being in the workplace? So you do you keep
a constant dialogue up with your management or do you
just get the job done and keep on and just
get on with it? It depends I guess it depends
(14:08):
how much you enjoy what you're doing as well.
Speaker 5 (14:09):
Your intro was excellent on this, and I excited me.
I thought it.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Good on you. Max. There's our culture of mutual compliment, admiration,
mutual admiration. I eight hundred and eighty ten and eighty
text nine two nine two. We'll be back in just
a moment. It's twenty one past five. It's Newstalk. Se'd
be with Tim Beverage with Max Whitehead. We're talking about
corporate culture and also the squeaky wheel, get in the
grease and how do you manage yourself in the workplace.
(14:36):
By the way, just I suddenly thought of an example
before we go to our first caller where corporate culture
and the rules about the way you conduct yourself actually
do have to be adhered to. So obviously in the media,
my values would overlap with what ends of me wants
from me. They want me to be honest and forthright
and enact with integrity. But there would be a classic
example where in retail, the cust so the value of
(15:01):
a particular store or chain, will have a rule that
the customer is always right. And that is an example
where you might want to tell a customer that they're
being complete pain in the backside. But you have to
suck it up because that's the value, and that's essential
to you doing your job, isn't it, Matt.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
But there's a couple of things in that too. I mean,
integrity is important as well. So like if you say
that you're selling a car and the guy comes up
and says, I want a black one, though, you need
to say black's really cool. It looks really great, but
it's very hard to keep because it gets dirty very
quickly and dusty. Oh. You know that integrity just refining there.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Doesn't it. Yeah. But if somebody says I'm not complaining
about something that's wrong with something, they're not happy and
you think that they're being unreasonable, especially I guess in
the restaurant business and things like that.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
You know, I just got to take it back. Can
I have my money back or something? Yeah, I'm just
eating it all.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Leave it to the boss to make the call around
whether they have to throw someone out or not. Anyway, Bob, Hello,
how are you doing?
Speaker 7 (16:03):
Hey, Bob, good evening, gentlemen. Great to have a chat.
I thought i'd you know, it was just sat in
the car and listening to you guys talking about honesty
and integrity in the workplace, and I thought, huh, I
have an example or two. I mean my experience, I've
worked in four multinational corporations so far and thirty eight
(16:25):
years of age, and my experience always has been, you know,
corporates get a bad name and a bad rip for
a reason, each and every corporate. I mean, I'd give
you a little homework exercise going to any of the
corporate's values and they'll have the words honesty and integrity
and it's the same she bang. But I agree what
(16:48):
what they say and what they do or two different things.
They do really take care of the frontline staff. Me
being in middle management, my experience is when it comes
to managers and if there's any toxicity and senior management,
it's next to impossible that you get attention from HR.
(17:08):
But they really do take care of their frontline stuff.
So is it important?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (17:14):
Does it actually happen? When I say it, I'm referring
to companies sticking to their values up in my experience, No,
do you.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
Know what, Bob, you would in my experience, you'll find
the ground floor workers will say that middle management get
the attention. We don't from HR because we end up
getting disciplined and sorted out and told off. And whereas
middle management go and do something critical, they don't seem
to be no one seems to care.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I guess. So the question I want to follow up
with Bob is because I think it can be a
bit hit or miss whether a company lives up to
its own standards in the way management conduct themselves. But
does it really matter to you what the stated culture
of a company is or do you just start the
job see how it goes. Luckily, the two or three
people or five or ten people you work with a
great and who cares what the company is like because
(18:06):
your immediate contacts are great fun mm hmmm.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
And then the interview process you have to align your
values with the organizations and with the job market being
so tough. That's a job tip as well. You have
to say that in the interview. Whether it's the truth
or not you believe it, believe in that or not
is a difference.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Have you ever had a conflict with a corporate culture.
We've looked at something and go on, this is nonsense,
but I'll say it.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Good question.
Speaker 7 (18:31):
Yeah, Yes, the previous job that I had. They spoke
about trusting, and they spoke about trusting each other, trusting
your colleagues, even if they're from a different department, being collaborative.
But the entire company. When I say the entire company,
I mean regardless of which department you worked with. Nobody
(18:52):
was collaborative. There was no good face, but nobody did
anything about it.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, did you have to? Did you? Well, here's an
interesting one. I mean, because as an individual, you might
be slow to trust people because trust is earned, it's
not just given. And that's a tough one. If they
say you must trust all your colleagues, you might I
mean the honest part of me be like, well, I
will up to a point, but I'm not gonna lay
(19:20):
my future on the line because that's a tricky one.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
Well, safety, for example, there's a very good example to
prove that point. Yeah, in terms of trust, I would
agree with you. It's going to be earned. I think
it's a very good, good, good point.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Thank cheers, Bobby. Anything asked you want to add before
we went?
Speaker 7 (19:38):
I think Winston Peter's Look, I'm not a big political person,
but don't know much about him. But if he's talking
about values and you know, before getting anyone in the country.
And I'm an immigrant myself, I think yes, one hundred percent,
as long as it's done in good faith and good intentions. Yes,
we should educate people we're bringing in about KIP value.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
And notify them what we expect of them. I think
that's that is an employer's obligation. It's the biggest job
and to get it, where do your part your care?
You know those fundamental ones.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Thanks for call, Bob. Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
is a number. John, Hello, Hey John?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, Hi, how's it going, guys?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Good?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
A mind slightly off the topic that you currently are
right currently on at the moment. But I've got a
situation regarding on call work. We've had our on call
stuff restructured and yeah, so I was just kind of
wondering with what we get accepted, like do we have
(20:40):
to accept the offer from the employer? And who determines what's.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
The unreasonable depends. It depends on what the on call work.
It depends exactly what it is. So John, if on
calls mentioned in your employment agreement, that's sacriscine. No one
can touch that unless there's an agreement between the two parties.
But if on call work is dictated to by their policy,
then the employer does have a right to vary it
(21:06):
upon notice, So giving you reasonable notice before they actually
require you to follow that on call thing. But this
affects money, does it? John?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Well, basically because everything was under restructure when I started,
so there was nothing outlined as in, there's no real
breakdown on what was basically the payment structure for the
on call work and what was and wasn't.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Oh, that's not acceptable. I think if there's money to
be made in terms of that, it's going to be
transparent right from the outset. And I think it's a
reasonable call for you to ask for that. You just
put it in respectful language, but certainly be saying all right,
so if we do on call work, what's the payment
going to be in regards to that. I think your
(21:54):
colleagues would support you with that reasonable question as well.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
John, Well, it's just start kind of being there longer
than me and haven't really pushed back to much.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
John, Just for the just for the listeners, can you
explain what on call work means?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Okay, So for us, we do a normal forty hour
week and then we're rosted on call for basically Monday
to Monday. So that's basically covering over time, yeah basically, well, yeah,
it would be over time if you're actually working. But yeah,
(22:34):
so we're required weekdays to be on call from a
five o'clock to seven o'clock I think it is, and
then twenty four hours Saturday Sunday. Yeah, and yeah, so
I have read because we have to be available as
in like we have to respond that those hours may
(22:56):
be considered as workouts. I don't know if that's true
or not, because yeah, basically we're.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
Well, then you should be paid for being on call
if you're on standby. There there is law in regards
to this that if you're on standby, then there should
be at least the minimum wage paid. Is a minimum?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Is that for every hour?
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Though? Well, it should be if you're on call. I
mean that means you have to be really willing and
available to be and sober and to jump in and
go to work immediately. Then there should be some payment
in regards to that, and they could call an allowance.
I think it's a reason.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
What sort of work are you in? Can you tell us?
Or are you too close to the bone.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
It's a building maintenance roll.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Okay. Yeah. The on call thing is interesting because if
doctors are on call, for instance, you get a certain
rate and then you get more when you're called in
to do something.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
And some people sleep on the job. They're entitled to sleep,
but if they're called in the night, they have to respond.
But normally, now what's been required in the court case
in those particular cases is that they should be paid
for actually being on call.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
It takes more calls speaking, which because we are on
call right now.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Literally Fred, Hello, Hello, Fred.
Speaker 8 (24:07):
Good good, Max, how are you guys afternoon?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Very good?
Speaker 8 (24:13):
Cant up on a couple of points quickly. I agree
with Max when you said this generation is, let's put
it there's from me, somewhat different to the old school
way you're doing things. Well, what I really wanted to
talk about, if I can, is a previous company I
worked for them, and transport and anyway, definitely a double
(24:34):
standard culture where just as an example, no smoking in vehicles,
buildings or forkliffs or whatever. So you drive and truck
your under camera surveillance, you get order very good, but
the forks are running around the deck all night smoking
way merrily under camera surveillance and that's not a problem.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Ah yeah, you've got to say there's some hypocrisy in that,
isn't there? I mean, but mind you, I guess what's
the reason for the smoking policy is to make sure
that the caves are clean and fresh air, whereas perhaps
the folklift drivers in open air.
Speaker 8 (25:13):
No, these guys are all in.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I mean.
Speaker 8 (25:17):
Again, they're running Diesel Falklands, so the smoking is neither
an issue whichever which way, because I can't can't compete
with the diesel games. But what actually wanted to talk
about was the branch that I was working in. The
manager there is a right individual.
Speaker 6 (25:40):
Who knows what I mean there we all know and Fred.
Speaker 8 (25:45):
Now this guy is almost teflot. I worked with the
company for five years. I went to his boss, I
went even higher, I went to HR. I ended up
having a whore and great row with the general manager
and support of the other guys and the branch and
(26:06):
the end of it, I just beat my head against
the wall and so I quit. I failed, and I'm
now in another job where I'm extremely happy. However, a
lot of my mates are still stuck in this job.
What can they do? To get this guy to move.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah, Fred, did you try and put that in writing?
Because I tell you what, HR hate that you put
something in writing to them, and that means that there
is a record that you've made that complaint. Otherwise you'll
come back to this matter and say it manifest itself
into a real health and safety problem for somebody. They
will go Fred, No, I don't think Fred ever raised it. No, No,
(26:47):
but you've got in writing and there's evidence you've raised it,
and they haven't failed in their duty and they should
in their duty.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
What about if Fred's worried about putting in writing book
and then therefore labeling himself as in some people's eyes,
as a troublemaker.
Speaker 5 (27:02):
Oh no, Fred's already got that because he's gone right
to the top and him gone higher. So you know
HRM management.
Speaker 8 (27:13):
Yeah, the thing is, there was one incident where cut
a long story short vehicle broke down. I ended up
having a waited, awkward quite sometimes got ferry back up north.
So I've been going for about sixteen eighteen hours and
the manager decides that's going to be the point when
he's going to tue me a new one, and I
(27:35):
literally lost the plot the AI thing I didn't do
was flattening and I was so tempered. But that one
I then put into writing to Hr he got a
smack over the peak because he was told not you
had me.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
A naughty boy. Don't So to answer your question before, Fred,
get your colleagues to put it in writing, and even
you can support it. But certainly I think say to them,
this is a problem. It's been around since the good
old Fred days.
Speaker 8 (28:03):
Yeah, I mean, this guy's great on paper, and that's
the problem. His part of the job is probably more
financial and computerized that but he doesn't assist the guys
in any way, shape or form nat do the work.
He takes a credit for it. So that's one of
those circumstances. But yeah, I'll take that advice on board.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Max, Thank you, jeers, Fred, thanks thanks mate. Take it easy.
We're going to take quick moment and taking more calls,
and we've got quite a few texts and as often
when the employment situations, things can be a little bit
more nerve wracking to go on air and talk to
the whole country about it. So we've got a few
texts to deal with, which we'll get onto in just
a moment. We're with Max whitehere talking about generally how
(28:49):
relevant is the corporate culture to the way you conduct
your business when you are at work? Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty and lots of other questions around that.
It's twenty two minutes to six. Yes, news talks'll be
talking about employment, workplace culture, corporate culture, that sort of thing.
How important does this do to do your job or
do you just rely on your own ethics, et cetera,
et cetera. Lots of texts, so here's one here. One
(29:11):
is just by the way, this person saying wants you
to send contact details if you want to get in
touch with Max. We won't be emailing you separately. But
if you're listening now.
Speaker 5 (29:23):
Two one twenty four to seven ninety three ninety three.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Two one twenty four seven ninety three ninety three. Because
this person says, there've been someone to a meeting with
my almost sound satirical the number of initials here. I've
been someone to a meeting with my executive GM of
HR and hsee. But I spoke up because of my
integrity and personal values. When the process was flawed, I
spoke up to try and advise the management and it
(29:48):
has put me in the cross hairs. And that raises
the question that if you are if you do see
something that's going wrong, how does a company set up
its HR processes so it can be trusted?
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Very dificult because who pays HR obviously paid by the boss.
So where's their loyalty and where they are interested in
retaining their employment as well? So if they started working
with the employees, you'll find that they certainly be big,
big questions asked of their integrat well that they're not
not so much integrity, but they're loyalty.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, someone is in a big company and they've got
a problem with someone who's well up the food chain,
is there any way of actually addressing that or they
just have to leave?
Speaker 5 (30:33):
I think put it in writing and then sit back
and nothing happens. Then you've got a record that you've
actually raised it. And if something manifests itself, as I said,
gets in the worse situation where perhaps an individual and
this does happen, has a mental breakdown.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
What are the obligations of confidentiality if someone's well, there's
whistleblowing stuff, which isn't it on the really serious stuff?
But what are the obligations generally of companies to respect
confidentiality if you request.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
It, okay, And that's a good question, because HR make
a real mess of this quite they're doing an a
instigation or an investigations undertaken. The individual will say to them,
their employee will say, look, I'm happy to tell you,
but don't tell anyone I've told you this, blah blah
blah blah, and HR are very very keen to hear
what they've got to say. But the facts are they
(31:19):
can't use that information, so it's actually useless to them.
But they're going to breach their confidentiality and use it.
I mean, it's just a hypocrisy again. And that's where
people start to lose trust.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So what should someone in an organization do if they've
got something they want to complain about, but they don't
want their highly placed boss to know that they have
said something because they want to put tag on their boat.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
And you can go over their head if you say
the two levels up I have done it. I'd go to
the CEO and write a letter and say, look, I
haven't raised this with this individual concern, but these are
my observations, and I think it's of concern that whereupon
you may have to do an investigation.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Do you have to expressly say in the letter expect
confidentiality in this or not? Because you can try to
see him, I might see, I might go I got
this hey, Hey, you know, hey, Dave, I got this
letter from Bob about you. He's not very happy. It's
all downhill.
Speaker 5 (32:19):
Well it is. It is downhill, and it happens. What
you've just painted there happens very very regularly. So confidentially, yes,
you can ask for it, but whether you're going to
get it or not because they can't act on.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
It, what's what are the rules around confidentiality if is
there some sort of law in a workplace that if
you say to someone, I'm expressing this problem in assistance,
I want confidentiality, what if they breach that?
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Is there any Well you imagine HR person who's been
told something that's going to put somebody's life at risk
and don't tell anyone that's come from me. And yet
that is the person who's observed it, seen it in
its actual fact, I mean the HR person can't act
on it and saying well there's rumors that this is
going on, I mean, that's just got no meat on
the sandwich at all. It's just words.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Okay, here's some more texts. I think. I think the
happy middle ground is always the way, Tom. If you're
a pain, this is about the squeaky way. If you're
a pain and always complaining, it doesn't matter how good
you are, you won't be sought after for promotions. But
engaging with management in a constructive way definitely helps. Alongside
being able to get the job done well. Not being
able to accept criticism is another negative. But that's honestly
(33:29):
a pain in the butt as a manager. How on
a second, I've got to scroll down here. As a manager,
it's critical to foster a culture where employees can come
to you with ideas and complaints. They're on the front
line and getting them to come up with ideas that
you implement and give credit for does absolute wonders for
business productivity and every aspect. I actually think that that's
probably quite a common fault that managers who like to
(33:52):
be seen. You know, the best thing you can do
is give credit to other people for great ideas, isn't it. Now?
Speaker 5 (33:57):
Look from an HR perspective, they get inundated all day
with people with complaints, and that's why they just roll
their eyes every time, because some of them just go nowhere.
I mean, it's just a personal grudge they might have
against an individual, So that's where they become immune to
it almost so they just become a numb to it
and actually half ignore most of them, which is really
a problem in itself, because that's about again about integrity.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Here's a question from Rosie who hasn't found because she
wants to be discrete a query pleas as on base
income and commission an advised commission. Payment will be delayed
two weeks, so she's earned a commission and she's not
getting paid obviously when she expects to be paid. Any
comment on that, well, two weeks doesn't sound radical.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
No, it doesn't sound radical, particularly in the today's environment,
because I mean, the redundancies are happening just out there.
Just places are really suffering financially. So a two week delay,
I would say, if it's in the employment contract, you
could make a fuss about it, but I would suggest
you give them two weeks and save it. It goes
over that limit, I may have to get external advice
(35:01):
for intervention.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Here. Okay, here's another one. Amax what's the deal if
you were terminated from a job that they terminated you
and allowed it to be recorded as a resignation, and
then you apply for another job within the same group
organization that your company wishes to get your employment record
from the previous company from the same group, and they
ask for information on your employment history, can they reveal
any information about well, basically, can they tell them you're sacked?
(35:24):
I think so.
Speaker 5 (35:24):
The Privacy Act protects you in that regard. Your boss
can't release any information about you unless you give them permission.
Your previous employer you can do ye.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
So if you've been sacked for whatever reason and you
say to the people have sacked you, you can't tell
anyone about this, Yes, then your next employee is none
the wiser. Are there exceptions to that? If you've been
done for?
Speaker 5 (35:46):
The employers breach that regularly because they talk to other
employees and they all help each other out in.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
The body, they'd use a subtle thing like our recommendation
would not be to you if.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
You came to it and said would we re employ
that person? That we wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Ah, that's the length, that's the subtlety of it. Yeah,
and keep and count the number of pends on your
desk when you've been from me.
Speaker 5 (36:07):
I remember that. I'm actually looking in my pin now
I'm thinking it's going to disappear.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
We'll be back in a moment. It's ten to this
news talk, said b We got a couple of minutes
to go. We got one more quarter to a take.
So Mickey will keep it brief. But how are you going?
Speaker 6 (36:20):
Hey Mickey, Yeah, yeah, good afternoon, gentlemen. How are you?
I'll keep it a brief as I can. I started
to do with a company two years ago at a
contract to do a certain job. Now I'm kind of
liking control of all kinds of work, included working high
self and safety on ropes and everything. And I asked
(36:41):
for a review. Everyone at a review, and I asked
my boss canarver review and he said, no, you don't
need one, And yeah, it's just a bit of pressure
on me.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
And so Micky, the thing for you, what you should
do is write it up. Because what you've just told
us about a couple of things that you're now like
doing health and safety, you're now doing HR you're down.
I would assume recruiting, you're managing people these are attributes
that people don't often have the skills to do. So
you've got some leadership skills here, tell them this is
(37:14):
the time. We were talking before about the squeaky wheel.
This is the time, and you take it to your boss.
You don't have to tell everybody else.
Speaker 6 (37:21):
Yeah, yeah, my problem is every now and again, so
I'll get a lot of tap on the shoulder and say,
you know, good for what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
But yeah, a salary review, you want some more money.
Speaker 6 (37:34):
No, I'll get paid weekly. But it's the pressure that's
been for me now is I had to organize trip
SP's the set work situations up, working heights and all
the rest of it. And and you know, so was
McKean all the rest of it. But I don't feel.
Speaker 5 (37:53):
If you want money, don't you that's what that's what?
Speaker 6 (37:58):
Yeah? Sorry, yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
So then put that put that document together and put
some time into it, and don't show everyone else. Just
take it to the man who makes the decisions. Hey, Mickey, thanks,
really good question.
Speaker 6 (38:11):
Appreciate Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
God on you, Good on you. But it sounds like
they've just taken the Mickey, I'm sorry that was an
accidental expression. But they are taking the I can't think
of the other expression, sorry, Mickey, what is it taking
the mind? They're taking liberties with you, Mickey? There we go,
There we go. So do stand up for yourself especially.
I mean it sounds like he's like on a week
by week sort of contract. He does all these things
(38:34):
and they're just no, we'll just leave it.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
As he sounds stressed as well, so they're piling stuff
at him and he's it's going to cost him eventually.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
If you do want to get a bit of help
from Max, then what was the number one? Three? Jeez?
Do it again?
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Because it's twenty four seven ninety three ninety three, which
I remember because the tep scare is ninety two ninety two. Anyway, Max, Hay,
good to see you so much, And if you want
to catch up with any of the hours you missed,
please go and look for the Weekend Collective on news
Talk said be Dot, Curtin and Zaid. We load every
hour up. I tell you what you really want to
listen to. Listen to me Chasing My Tale around with
Stuart Nash and the politics and division last to three
(39:14):
are great fun there anyway. Sunday at six is next.
Thanks for my producer, Ty Award, good stuff and we'll
look forward to your company same time next weekend. Have
a great evening, good night everyon.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk Said B weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.