March 21, 2024 • 11 mins
A popular professor at Arizona State University could face discipline—all because he won’t take the government-run school’s discriminatory DEI training.
The Goldwater Institute sued ASU on Dr. Owen Anderson’s behalf for using taxpayer funds to mandate DEI training among faculty—in violation of state law.
To talk more about it, Dr. Owen Anderson talks to Armstrong and Getty!
Listen to the full Armstrong & Getty Extra Large Podcast!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's a pleasure to talk to doctor Owen Anderson, a
longtime professor at Arizona State University who is joining with
the Goldwater Institute to sue Arizona State for a number
of different reasons. And I don't want to steal us thunder,
but it has to do with being forced to submit
to DEI training and in violation not only of conscience
(00:24):
and beliefs about race, but in violation of state law.
Doctor Owen Anderson joins us. Maybe we call you Owen sir, Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Please do, and thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Oh, it's beyond our pleasure. This is at the top
of our list of jihadds. But so, what did Arizona
State to tell you you had to do and why
do you object?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, I've been actually been teaching at ASU for over
twenty one years, so I've been in quite a while,
and i've always you know, I've gotten good, good reviews
for my teaching and my work as a professor, I
published widely in my field. But then about it's about
two years ago, November twenty twenty two, I got a
notification that I required DEI training is called Inclusive Communities,
(01:09):
and I think everybody who works at a state university
is in favor of inclusion, and you know everybody should
go to go to state university without any exception. So
it sounds good inclusive communities. But when you look into
the content, I mean, I think it's startling. One thing
the Goldwater Institute has done is they've made the content
known publicly, and anyone who reads it is kind of startled, like, wow,
(01:31):
that's that's actually racism. What it does is it divides
people up into races, and then it treats them differently
based on their race, based on their skin color, which
is the very definition of racism. And so I said,
I'm not going to take that because it violates my conscience.
I believe racism is wrong in any setting. And so
I'm not going to able to earpreicipate so that it
(01:53):
stays on my file saying as is required and I'm overdue.
I'm supposed to take it once every two years. Time
is coming up soon here where I won't have taken
it in two years, and so I've always had this
kind of threat hanging over me then that I may
be disciplined for not meeting the requirement of this DEI train.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
You said something there owen that went by quickly, but
I think it is pretty significant. And because we've observed this,
observed this over and over again, people don't many people
don't know what's in these so called training courses, and
as soon as they're exposed to the truth, they're shocked
by it. And it's it's odd, to say the least,
(02:34):
that Arizona State has training programs that when people see
their content are horrified by them. That shouldn't be going
There should be much more transparency than that.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, that's exactly right, and I think that's part of
what's going to happen is that this is a state
agency and I'm a state employee, and so anything that
goes on needs to be known to the public. The
taxpayers need to know this is the kind of thing
going on. Is one thing to teach a about DEI
for those who are interested. It's quite an honest thing
to require it. And it goes beyond simply requiring you
(03:06):
watch a video. There's a quiz you have to take,
and so the quiz, the way the answers are set up,
compels you to agree with the content. So, for example,
there might be a true false question, and it says,
you know something like white people don't know about their privilege,
and you're supposed to say true, which means you agree
with it. I can reef you like I can read.
I've got some of them here, go ahead, please. Some
(03:29):
of the content from the slides include one of the
main topics is white supremacy and how the whole United
States system is structurally racist. And so they'll have topics
like explaining white privilege to a broke white person. So
even though this person's broke, they're white, and so just
(03:49):
in version of that, they're privileged. White fragility. There's a
whole video about white fragility and how white people don't
act up their responsibility for all the past evils, and
that's that's one of the main things that goes on
in these is that all of history leading up to
the present is blamed on people for their race. Because
(04:12):
of your race, because of your skin color, you're responsible
for things that happened in the past.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
And then there's right and you are just assumed, well
not assumed, but it's aggressively taught that you have a
certain set of characteristics because of your skin color, which
is the definition of racism.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Well, so you decided not to take the training. Do
you have any idea if you did take the training,
but you said false to the true false question, how
does that work?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, that's a great question. Because what I did was
I started going through it and I said this is wrong,
and I looked at the quiz and I said, I'm
not going to do these and so I never finished it.
So I don't know what would have happened if I
simply disagreed with the answers. But what I did was
I started a substack doctor Owen Anderson on substack, and
I just started talking about this stuff because I said,
(05:00):
the public needs to know about this. This is this
is not right people. I mean, the idea of a
state university is a very good idea. We should have
universities that people that are that are affordable for the
people of the state, and you can send your children
there you can afford, you know, hopefully, I mean it's
gone up a lot in price, and hope you can afford.
It's a good education. But then what's happened is these
(05:21):
state universities are actively teaching a very partisan ideology and
it alienates conservatives Christians. I mean We had Dennis Preger
out to ASU last year, and the vast majority of
our Honors college wrote a letter about how he's a
white nationalist. Dennis Preger beautiful.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
We're talking at doctor Owan Anderson of Arizona State University.
He and Goldwater Institute are suing Arizona State University for
mandatory DEI training, and all of this is absolutely right,
and I believe it fervently from a moral point of view.
But it's also correct me if I'm wrong. It's just
literally illegal in Arizona to have this sort of mandatory
(06:05):
training that teaches essentially discrimination based on race.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yes, that's right. We have a law that prohibits state
agencies from using state money to teach any kind of
race blame or judgment based on race, and that should
just be common sense. I mean, the idea is you
blame a people group based on their skin color for
something that you say, all those people are wrong. That's
just what racism is. That's what we're opposed to. That's
(06:33):
what Martin Luther King Junior taught us to avoid judging
people based on their skin color instead of their character.
So it should be obvious. But what's happened is most
of this is done secretly, behind the scenes, and people
don't know about it. So one thing that was interesting
to me as I started my sub sac is I
would get emails from parents who said I had no idea.
I mean, I always assumed in a university's liberal, but
(06:56):
I had no idea how bad it was.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
So let me hear what was that true false question?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Again, the true false question. Let me give an example.
Here's another one. I have it in front of me.
Which of the following areas of the university should address
DEIB so diversity, equity, inclusion belonging. There's multiple choice, but
the correct answer is d DEIB should be part of
(07:23):
every facet of the university. Right to get that question right,
you have to agree that DEIV should be part of
every single facet of the university. And of course I
don't agree about that at all.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Right, and then leaving microbiology, good luck with that, right, and.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Then right, there's a big push for that in the sciences. Yep,
how do you.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Work that into physics? You have any idea?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
They try, Yeah, I've seen examples of it, and it's
just it's laughable and idiotic. Now, doctor Anderson, I happen
to know, you teach philosophy and religious studies, and this
is kind of ani but it's got to make you
insane that you have this, you know, the ebramex canny
point of view that you're a racist. And you have
two choices either say no, I'm not a racist, which
(08:10):
proves you're a racist, or say yes, I'm a racist,
which proves you're a racist. As a guy who's devoted
your life to these subtleties of knowledge and human understanding,
the fact that people would fall for a scheme that's
stupid has got to make you insane.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Well, one of my classes I love teaching is introductional logic, right,
and so you're right. What stuns me is I'm teaching
my freshman symbol logical fallacies to avoid, and then I'm
seeing them by people who are advanced degrees, and so
it is stunning to me. The one you just gave
from IBRAMX Kennedy is a great example where where you're
(08:47):
simply assumed that you are a racist is begs the question,
and you can't say anything back or else. That just
simply proves the point as well. So yeah, that's you know,
I mean, it's one thing That is a mark. I
love universe. See, I love studying philosophy, I love studying
all subjects. But this is a real mark against an
argument that says, hey, everyone should go to college. But
(09:09):
wait a minute. Your most advanced professors can't avoid simple
logical fallacies.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
So us talking to an education us talking to a
philosophy major the other day got their graduate degree in
philosophy from Berkeley, and I brought up Nietzsche, and they said,
Nietzsche's a bunch of crap.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
You got to read Kant or Hume. Would you agree
or not it with that? Niets you a bunch of
crap you want to give you out.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I think he is overrated. He appeals to people who
think I want to do what I want to do.
There you go, So the power of your bill a
bunch of crap.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Wow, there you go summarized an entire class there in
thirty seconds.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
You're a gifted jack. You're a gift to see me
a lot of time there so on. So a whole
bunch of people like, so would your take me that?
Like practically everybody there at the university did take that
test and answered to a question like to or false.
White people aren't understanding their white privilege like most people
took it and said true.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Well, I mean I don't have access to them. I
would have to assume that's true. I have a few
people who reach out to me and they said they
didn't take it either, and so I do know there's
a couple of us, But I think the vastman I
think the people who agree with me at ASU mostly
are silent because they know if I speak up, there's
all kinds of subtle ways they can harass you. And
(10:29):
I mean I've sat to faculty meetings where we're supposed
to be talking about the business of our school, classes, enrollment,
things like that, and we will touch on those and
then we get right into left wing politics and how
bad Conservatives and Christians are, and so there's all kinds
of ways that you can you can be made to
feel uncomfortable at work, which if it was done to
anyone else, they would say, hey, that's illegal.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Unless you drop to your knees and pledge fealty to
their religion. Yeah, exactly. Uh, doctor owan Anderson.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I'm sorry, Well, you just said is important. It's a religion.
It has all the same marks of religion. And I
don't say that as a put down because I'm I'm
a Christian. I'm not actually also a Christian pastor. But
it has the marks of a religion in terms of
having assumptions that you're not allowed to question, and then
having this kind of missionary zeal where they want to
convert all the young people to their religion.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Well, and like some religions or even the phases of
Christianity of the past, they want to hurt anyone who
refuses to come around. But we're about out of time,
you know. We ought to have doctor Anderson back again sometime,
whether orm the air or to do a podcast. I
would love to do a podcast on logical fallacies. That's
one of my favorite things. Yeah, but hey, hey, stay
(11:37):
in touch on this. We're one hundred percent on your side,
rooting for you, and it's been great to talk.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Thanks, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
And as you learn, Nietzsche's a bunch of crap.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So just to summarize, yeah
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Armstrong and Getty
It's a pleasure to talk to doctor Owen Anderson, a
longtime professor at Arizona State University who is joining with
the Goldwater Institute to sue Arizona State for a number
of different reasons. And I don't want to steal us thunder,
but it has to do with being forced to submit
to DEI training and in violation not only of conscience
(00:24):
and beliefs about race, but in violation of state law.
Doctor Owen Anderson joins us. Maybe we call you Owen sir, Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Please do, and thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Oh, it's beyond our pleasure. This is at the top
of our list of jihadds. But so, what did Arizona
State to tell you you had to do and why
do you object?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, I've been actually been teaching at ASU for over
twenty one years, so I've been in quite a while,
and i've always you know, I've gotten good, good reviews
for my teaching and my work as a professor, I
published widely in my field. But then about it's about
two years ago, November twenty twenty two, I got a
notification that I required DEI training is called Inclusive Communities,
(01:09):
and I think everybody who works at a state university
is in favor of inclusion, and you know everybody should
go to go to state university without any exception. So
it sounds good inclusive communities. But when you look into
the content, I mean, I think it's startling. One thing
the Goldwater Institute has done is they've made the content
known publicly, and anyone who reads it is kind of startled, like, wow,
(01:31):
that's that's actually racism. What it does is it divides
people up into races, and then it treats them differently
based on their race, based on their skin color, which
is the very definition of racism. And so I said,
I'm not going to take that because it violates my conscience.
I believe racism is wrong in any setting. And so
I'm not going to able to earpreicipate so that it
(01:53):
stays on my file saying as is required and I'm overdue.
I'm supposed to take it once every two years. Time
is coming up soon here where I won't have taken
it in two years, and so I've always had this
kind of threat hanging over me then that I may
be disciplined for not meeting the requirement of this DEI train.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
You said something there owen that went by quickly, but
I think it is pretty significant. And because we've observed this,
observed this over and over again, people don't many people
don't know what's in these so called training courses, and
as soon as they're exposed to the truth, they're shocked
by it. And it's it's odd, to say the least,
(02:34):
that Arizona State has training programs that when people see
their content are horrified by them. That shouldn't be going
There should be much more transparency than that.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, that's exactly right, and I think that's part of
what's going to happen is that this is a state
agency and I'm a state employee, and so anything that
goes on needs to be known to the public. The
taxpayers need to know this is the kind of thing
going on. Is one thing to teach a about DEI
for those who are interested. It's quite an honest thing
to require it. And it goes beyond simply requiring you
(03:06):
watch a video. There's a quiz you have to take,
and so the quiz, the way the answers are set up,
compels you to agree with the content. So, for example,
there might be a true false question, and it says,
you know something like white people don't know about their privilege,
and you're supposed to say true, which means you agree
with it. I can reef you like I can read.
I've got some of them here, go ahead, please. Some
(03:29):
of the content from the slides include one of the
main topics is white supremacy and how the whole United
States system is structurally racist. And so they'll have topics
like explaining white privilege to a broke white person. So
even though this person's broke, they're white, and so just
(03:49):
in version of that, they're privileged. White fragility. There's a
whole video about white fragility and how white people don't
act up their responsibility for all the past evils, and
that's that's one of the main things that goes on
in these is that all of history leading up to
the present is blamed on people for their race. Because
(04:12):
of your race, because of your skin color, you're responsible
for things that happened in the past.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
And then there's right and you are just assumed, well
not assumed, but it's aggressively taught that you have a
certain set of characteristics because of your skin color, which
is the definition of racism.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Well, so you decided not to take the training. Do
you have any idea if you did take the training,
but you said false to the true false question, how
does that work?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, that's a great question. Because what I did was
I started going through it and I said this is wrong,
and I looked at the quiz and I said, I'm
not going to do these and so I never finished it.
So I don't know what would have happened if I
simply disagreed with the answers. But what I did was
I started a substack doctor Owen Anderson on substack, and
I just started talking about this stuff because I said,
(05:00):
the public needs to know about this. This is this
is not right people. I mean, the idea of a
state university is a very good idea. We should have
universities that people that are that are affordable for the
people of the state, and you can send your children
there you can afford, you know, hopefully, I mean it's
gone up a lot in price, and hope you can afford.
It's a good education. But then what's happened is these
(05:21):
state universities are actively teaching a very partisan ideology and
it alienates conservatives Christians. I mean We had Dennis Preger
out to ASU last year, and the vast majority of
our Honors college wrote a letter about how he's a
white nationalist. Dennis Preger beautiful.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
We're talking at doctor Owan Anderson of Arizona State University.
He and Goldwater Institute are suing Arizona State University for
mandatory DEI training, and all of this is absolutely right,
and I believe it fervently from a moral point of view.
But it's also correct me if I'm wrong. It's just
literally illegal in Arizona to have this sort of mandatory
(06:05):
training that teaches essentially discrimination based on race.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yes, that's right. We have a law that prohibits state
agencies from using state money to teach any kind of
race blame or judgment based on race, and that should
just be common sense. I mean, the idea is you
blame a people group based on their skin color for
something that you say, all those people are wrong. That's
just what racism is. That's what we're opposed to. That's
(06:33):
what Martin Luther King Junior taught us to avoid judging
people based on their skin color instead of their character.
So it should be obvious. But what's happened is most
of this is done secretly, behind the scenes, and people
don't know about it. So one thing that was interesting
to me as I started my sub sac is I
would get emails from parents who said I had no idea.
I mean, I always assumed in a university's liberal, but
(06:56):
I had no idea how bad it was.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
So let me hear what was that true false question?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Again, the true false question. Let me give an example.
Here's another one. I have it in front of me.
Which of the following areas of the university should address
DEIB so diversity, equity, inclusion belonging. There's multiple choice, but
the correct answer is d DEIB should be part of
(07:23):
every facet of the university. Right to get that question right,
you have to agree that DEIV should be part of
every single facet of the university. And of course I
don't agree about that at all.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Right, and then leaving microbiology, good luck with that, right, and.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Then right, there's a big push for that in the sciences. Yep,
how do you.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Work that into physics? You have any idea?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
They try, Yeah, I've seen examples of it, and it's
just it's laughable and idiotic. Now, doctor Anderson, I happen
to know, you teach philosophy and religious studies, and this
is kind of ani but it's got to make you
insane that you have this, you know, the ebramex canny
point of view that you're a racist. And you have
two choices either say no, I'm not a racist, which
(08:10):
proves you're a racist, or say yes, I'm a racist,
which proves you're a racist. As a guy who's devoted
your life to these subtleties of knowledge and human understanding,
the fact that people would fall for a scheme that's
stupid has got to make you insane.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Well, one of my classes I love teaching is introductional logic, right,
and so you're right. What stuns me is I'm teaching
my freshman symbol logical fallacies to avoid, and then I'm
seeing them by people who are advanced degrees, and so
it is stunning to me. The one you just gave
from IBRAMX Kennedy is a great example where where you're
(08:47):
simply assumed that you are a racist is begs the question,
and you can't say anything back or else. That just
simply proves the point as well. So yeah, that's you know,
I mean, it's one thing That is a mark. I
love universe. See, I love studying philosophy, I love studying
all subjects. But this is a real mark against an
argument that says, hey, everyone should go to college. But
(09:09):
wait a minute. Your most advanced professors can't avoid simple
logical fallacies.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
So us talking to an education us talking to a
philosophy major the other day got their graduate degree in
philosophy from Berkeley, and I brought up Nietzsche, and they said,
Nietzsche's a bunch of crap.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
You got to read Kant or Hume. Would you agree
or not it with that? Niets you a bunch of
crap you want to give you out.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I think he is overrated. He appeals to people who
think I want to do what I want to do.
There you go, So the power of your bill a
bunch of crap.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Wow, there you go summarized an entire class there in
thirty seconds.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
You're a gifted jack. You're a gift to see me
a lot of time there so on. So a whole
bunch of people like, so would your take me that?
Like practically everybody there at the university did take that
test and answered to a question like to or false.
White people aren't understanding their white privilege like most people
took it and said true.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Well, I mean I don't have access to them. I
would have to assume that's true. I have a few
people who reach out to me and they said they
didn't take it either, and so I do know there's
a couple of us, But I think the vastman I
think the people who agree with me at ASU mostly
are silent because they know if I speak up, there's
all kinds of subtle ways they can harass you. And
(10:29):
I mean I've sat to faculty meetings where we're supposed
to be talking about the business of our school, classes, enrollment,
things like that, and we will touch on those and
then we get right into left wing politics and how
bad Conservatives and Christians are, and so there's all kinds
of ways that you can you can be made to
feel uncomfortable at work, which if it was done to
anyone else, they would say, hey, that's illegal.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Unless you drop to your knees and pledge fealty to
their religion. Yeah, exactly. Uh, doctor owan Anderson.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I'm sorry, Well, you just said is important. It's a religion.
It has all the same marks of religion. And I
don't say that as a put down because I'm I'm
a Christian. I'm not actually also a Christian pastor. But
it has the marks of a religion in terms of
having assumptions that you're not allowed to question, and then
having this kind of missionary zeal where they want to
convert all the young people to their religion.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Well, and like some religions or even the phases of
Christianity of the past, they want to hurt anyone who
refuses to come around. But we're about out of time,
you know. We ought to have doctor Anderson back again sometime,
whether orm the air or to do a podcast. I
would love to do a podcast on logical fallacies. That's
one of my favorite things. Yeah, but hey, hey, stay
(11:37):
in touch on this. We're one hundred percent on your side,
rooting for you, and it's been great to talk.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Thanks, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
And as you learn, Nietzsche's a bunch of crap.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So just to summarize, yeah
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Armstrong and Getty
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