March 2, 2025 • 25 mins
To say that the United States and Mexico have a complicated relationship is to put it lightly. We’re talking over 200 years of a complicated power dynamicAnd today more than ever, it’s hard to keep up with how much is constantly happening between the two.
So for this episode we’ll bring OG border and immigration reporters Alfredo Corchado and Angela Kocherga to understand what it could look like now that an unpredictable macho man is in the White House and a cool-headed woman is leading Mexico?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
From the moment Donald Trump entered the White House on
January twentieth. He made going after immigrants a priority, day
after day, week after week. He has gone beyond that
and also gone after Mexico as a country when it
hasn't done what he's wanted it to. He has threatened
(00:22):
tariffs on Mexican imports, designated Mexican drug cartels as terrorist organizations,
and says he has renamed the Gulf of Mexico, and well,
the list goes on and on. From Fludro Media and PRX,
(00:45):
it's Latino USA. I'm Marie jo Josa today a conversation
with journalists to better understand what's going on at the
US Mexico border and the delicate and long standing relationship
between the two countries. Today, I'm sitting down with Angela Cocherga,
longtime journalist who's also the news director for KTEP, the
(01:07):
public radio station in El Paso, and also sitting down
with renowned journalist and author Alfredo Corcado. They're going to
bring us context to help us understand the meaning of
what we're seeing in US Mexico relations right now, and
to help us make sense of it without falling into
the administration's trap of you know, basically being overwhelmed by
(01:30):
everything all at once. Thank you so much for joining
me on Latino USA from the wonderful desert in El Paso, Texas.
It's great to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Our pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
It's been a while since we've all talked together, actually,
but I think the moment merits.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
It not absolutely, very very a lot happening.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So I want to start by asking if the both
of you could talk about your personal relationship to Mexico,
to the United States and to the border, because the
three of us may know each other, but people are
there may not know you. So we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I'm from Durango, Elesta de la la Caran, born there,
grew up in Sa Juades because we were trying to
connect with my father, who at the time was Abraco
in the United States, in between El Paso, Arizona and California.
So from a very young age, at the age of six,
it was the border and this really became home, and
(02:26):
I reported for the Dallas More News among other publications,
for over thirty one years.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well. I was born in Mexico City and also raised
in Guaera, La Jara and on the Texas Mexico border
of South Texas in the Rio Grande Valley, and so
have lived a bi national life, bi national, bicultural, bilingual,
and have been covering the border both sides, which I
think is really important, Madia, for as you said, decades now,
(02:53):
we are og reporters.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
All right, so we are going to get into the
issues that are happening today, into the trump of it,
all right, But here at let you know, USA, we
actually think it's really important to look back at the history,
at the ups and downs in the relationships between the
US and Mexico in order to understand the context of
what's happening today. And we're going to keep this conversation
(03:18):
to the two thousands. We're going to start with nine
to eleven, which is something that actually completely changed how
the US treated immigrants and immigration, right.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Right, Yeah, I would say that nine to eleven profoundly
changed the border. The massive Department of Homeland Security was born,
and the focus was on security. So even legal trade
and people coming back and forth, everyone was perceived as
a possible threat. That made it very difficult. Passports were
now required, not just border crossing cars and cargo was
(03:51):
checked more thoroughly. So yes, it changed the dynamic from
neighbors and trading partners to possible threats.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Fast forward to what happens in Mexico. When President Philippe
Galdidon takes office.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Felipe Calderon declared war on the country's powerful cartels. He
sent the armed forces and federal police out on the streets.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So Felipe Calderon, the new Mexican president at the time,
declares a war on the drug cartels. And this basically
takes place from two thousand and six to twenty twelve.
And this is a really important moment. But just Angila
give us a sense of how this affected Mexico and
also the United States.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
It began as a violent presidency. He was sent a
message and I hate to be so graphic of several
decapitated heads being thrown on a dance floor and Mito
Khan and so kind of saying here, you want to
crack down, We're going to start this. And it became
horribly violent. It was a horribly bloody period and affected,
(04:53):
you know, not just it affected everyday Mexicans who who
were caught in the middle of all this. And this
bloodshed was horror and lasted for years.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
When ninety eleven happens, all the focus is about terrorism.
But in Mexico the cartels became harder and more tougher,
more emboldened. That picture that Angela talked about, the heads
rolling in a bar in mitra Gan. I think for
someone like Aleron, this kind of gave him a way
(05:25):
and to sort of find legitimacy, and him going to
Washington and meeting with the President Bush and telling President Bush, look,
it's like we opened the body thinking there was a
tumor inside and we could just remove it, and realizing
that the whole body was rotten, that the corruption was everywhere.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
This is when you start seeing massive movement of guns
from the United States into Mexico.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
During my government, we seize more than ninety thousand weapons
to the criminals, assault weapons ear fifteen, almost ten billions
of bullets.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
But they came from America.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yes, they came from America. And most of the criminals
in Mexico are buying even legally.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And basically it's this dynamic right that the United States
and Mexico on the question of drugs, it is a
problem of the both of them. Rightly, these countries are
tied together because of that, but they're also, as we know,
tied together because of the economics of the United States
(06:38):
and Mexico being major trading partners. So we're going to
move now to that conversation. The Obama administration is now
in power, right, it's post two thousand and eight. Felipe
Calderon is in office. It's twenty ten, twenty eleven, twenty twelve.
So these are years of economic recovery for the United States.
(06:59):
So let's talk about that particular economic moment visa the
the US and Mexico and start us off NFORIDAM.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
The recession was really felt on both sides, and you
started seeing this massive migration coming north. You know, at
the time, you know, people are talking about the New Mexico.
In Mexico and the lava. The people were supposed to
stay home, the younger generations were supposed to stay home,
and suddenly you just saw the influx of Mexicans going north.
(07:29):
And at the same time, you had a young US president,
President Obama, who was trying to at least in words,
he was saying, you know, they're trying to have this
landmark immigration reform, but to do that you had to
get operational control, whatever that means.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Angela and the Democrats have always tried to say, oh,
operational control. We're still trying to figure out what that
term means because it's constantly a goalpost that's moving. And
so President Obama earned during this time, then the porter
in chiefs. We also saw a different kind of migration
mighty as you know, families coming and children on their own,
the so called unaccompanied children, tens.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
Of thousands of children crossing the US border from Central America.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Officials that members of the media into the Nogalis facility
were about one thousand children from I saw a little
boy and probably ten years old, and he was pressed
up against the chain linked fence, just holding up his
face with his hands and he was crying.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
And today President Obama met with the presidents of Guatemala, Honduras,
and El Salvador to discuss what many are calling a
humanitarian crisis.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
The US government struggling to figure out how do we
address this type of immigration or migration, and what do
we do, where do we even put families and some
very controversial questions there.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
That kind of sets the stage for what happens with
a Donald Trump when he infamously gets on that gaudy
escalator in twenty fifteen and he announces his candidacy to
run for president and essentially insults Mexico. Angela did this
sort of set a new path?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Well, of course, there was shock and concern, and people
were insulted at all levels, both you know, people in power,
but also everyday Mexicans and Mexican Americans and others. But
the bottom line, Maria, he won the election, and the
border is a pignetta, and you bash it for votes,
you bash it for money, and it works.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
But I think that the thing that really a stock
out of my mind for years was how badly Enrique
Paganetto treated the situation. He was under attack, his country
was under attack. And what Doesto do. He invites candidate
Trump to Mexico City.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I mean, essentially he rolls out the red carpet. Okay,
so Angela, let's go to the presidency of Andres Manuel
Lopez O Rador.
Speaker 6 (09:56):
Celebrations broke out across Mexico City set the former mayor
of Mexico City, who's known as Amlo, will become Mexico's
first leftist president in decades.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
A leftist, an indigenous man, and there is Manuel Lopez
o Rador and he ends up having a very particular
relationship with Trump in his first administration as well. Set
the stage and Aila, tell us what you remember of
that time.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
It was. It was a time when you know, anytime
Trump make a thread, Lopez rod or what kind of
jump and say we'll do it, We'll do it. And
then the whole time you're you're realizing that this is
a very transactional relationship. I mean, I kept thinking, Mexico's
going to pay a huge price down the road.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And what do you remember about this time Mahi left,
We saw the budding relationship.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Really, Flower, these are two men who have a lot
in common. There are two sides, maybe different sides of
the same coin. Populist, powerful and really crushed critics. I'm
always not kind to any of his critics. You just
have to watch any of his early morning press conferences.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Coming up on Latino USA. Our conversation continues.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
These military flights, which are much more expensive, hold fewer
migrants are are being filled up and camera shots sent
out so everyone can see them.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Stay with us.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Hey, we're back. We're gonna jump right back into our
conversation with longtime border and immigration journalists Ahela Corcherga and
Alfredo Corcado.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Okay, for primera vez endosientoso republica, me converertier in la
primera moheer president.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Now there's a new election in Mexico and I'm a
little successor wins. Her name is Claudia Shamebam. She's the
first woman president and she's very very different in terms
of her personality. This is a big, big change to
see Claudia Shamebaum in response to Trump, I'm going to
(12:23):
start with you, Angila.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well, first of all, it's imporn to point out she
is a protege of Amblo, but she's also come into
her own as the new president of Mexico, and she
has a very different personality. She's not a bombastic or flamboyant.
She's very calm. She's an academic and her dealings have
been very calm, cool and collected.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Shane Bond repeatedly says, you need someone what they like
Cavet Safria.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
It's important Britain Caria to.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Deal with them. Shamee. Bond has learned the playbook, be nice,
play give him the marbles, give him the time out,
you know, in the corner. But at the same time,
keep the bigger picture, the fact that Mexico exports eighty
percent of its good to the United States, you know,
to focus on the migration, on the future of Mexico
(13:17):
in mind as you deal with this naughty, naughty boy.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Considering how Donald Trump deals with other world leaders, and
considering what we know in terms of how he deals
with women by the courts. By the way, this moment
of when we hear a Donald Trump saying, actually giving
praises to a woman, a Mexican woman at that.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
But I've we was speaking to the president of Mexico,
a very wonderful woman. Actually we were talking about drugs.
I said, are you a You're not a big drug
taking nation and she said, no, we are not a consumer.
We're not a consumer of drugs. I said, what an
interesting and why why is that? He said? She said, well,
we have very strong family values. I said, but we
(14:02):
do too, She said, Plus we advertise. I said, whoh
you mean you advertise about how bad drugs are. Yes,
we do. We spend a lot of money on advertising.
And I said, unbelievable. You know, I make so many calls,
and I never learned anything from anybody. I know everything,
and I never learned anything from anybody. And I spoke
to this woman as soon as she said it. I
(14:22):
was going to call her and tell her that she did.
But now I don't have to call her because she's
going to be seeing this right now. So to the
President of Mexico, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I think all world leaders have to be watching Claudia
to learn a thing or two about how to handle
President Trump.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
We're going to move on to some more sadly difficult issues, right,
which is the question of deportations.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
Now.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Certainly Donald Trump has been very performative about serving this
up to his base, which I guess they want to
see family separated, children crying. You know. He has said
that he was going to conduct the biggest deportation effort
ever seen. So far, we haven't seen those high numbers.
How's this playing out?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
We have correspondence from Tijuana, Sonora, from the Texas Valley, Reinosa, Matamotos.
We are just phased second a tour of many Mexican
shelters along the border, and the shelters remain empty. I
mean they have not gotten the kind of volume that
they thought they would. It can become a reality. But
(15:34):
at the same time they also know that this would
also be very, very hurtful for us the economy. We
are coming up against the harvest season in the United
States and we've all seen videos, you know, of empty feels, etc.
But it's impressive, how shamebon it is plain this. I mean,
(15:57):
it's all for the cameras. I mean, I look at
and I think these are great optics. She's got the
National guardsman at the shelters, she has them digging tunnels
to see if they find any clad side tunnels to
smuggle immigrants. She's got them by the International Bridge looking
for fentanyl. And anytime this happens, there's a tip to
(16:19):
the price to show up, send a message a north.
And then she also is urging the private industry, the
public industry, to create jobs in Mexico, not only for
Mexicans who may be coming back home or who are
coming back home at very small numbers, but also for
Central Americans Venezuelanos, guvanos, people who may stay in Mexico
(16:43):
because Mexico also has industries at where there are workers shortages.
So she's looking at the immediate game and at the
long term what's to come Madia.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
If I could jump in that's shelter and what is
that mega shelters one of ten all along the border
in border cities in Mexico Go that can hold up
to twenty five one hundred people and they're empty. So yes, prepared,
but up to now the numbers we have not seen
the numbers. We have seen people put on military flights
from here. We're kind of in the hub of it
all Il Paso. There's Fort Bliss, there's big army airfield
(17:16):
where these military flights, which are much more expensive hold
fewer migrants are being filled up and cameras shots sent
out so everyone can see them.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
And for the first time, military planes are making deportation
flights at C seventeen at Fort Bliss, Texas migrants in restraint.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
See about eighty men, women and children recent arrivals in
the US, stepping off buses and stepping on to military
transport jets. So it's interesting how both are using the
optics to appeal to their base as it were. One
(17:54):
thing that Donald Trump did do is to say that
he was going to give mexecond drug cartels designation of
foreign terrorist organizations, So you know, we have to think again.
We started by talking about nine to eleven, which is
kind of when the whole shift of the conversation moves
towards terrorism. Has it in fact become official that the
(18:16):
drug cartels are now in fact seen and dealt with
legally as terrorist organizations And what does this mean for
the relationship between the two countries.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Well, first of all, it's a very complex, complex situation
to designate them terrorists organizations because the cartels their hold
on the Mexican economy as such that they're in the
industry of tourism. What got these avocados? I mean, you
(18:51):
can go on and on and on. Some of these
industries have a buy in from foreign investors from the
United States. So to designate them it could be shooting
yourself in the foot. It could be very very difficult,
very embarrassing, if you will, for both countries. At the
same time, I think it's meant to be a thorn
(19:13):
on the side of shameebon to keep that label above
you and say no, you're not doing enough, No, no,
this is not happening. And by the way, you are
colluding with the cartels. And so it's a very I
think of all the challenges facing Shamebon, this is the
(19:35):
most difficult one. This is the more thorny one. But
I think when you talk to Mexicans on the street,
there's a sense of we need help from the United
States to deal with the security issue. It's a domestic
challenge but also an international challenge for the Shamebon.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So we've been talking about these, you know, long standing
politics between the United States and Mexico, two countries that
are inseparable from each other. In the area where you live,
El Paso, people are going back and forth all the time, right,
a very commercial and frankly full of life kind of
(20:13):
area in our country, Angila, tell us what it's been
like on a day to day, like, what are you
feeling given this new administration from Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Well, first of all, I'm so glad you pointed out, Maria,
these are vibrant border communities where there is life, there
is joy, and there are families with ties on both sides,
very strong ties, economic ties, trade, all of that. But
there also is now this shared fear. As you know,
there are many mixed status families here and all over
(20:44):
the US. So people are concerned and concerned to do
basic things. And also because the state of Texas has
also had a crackdown, so you know, is Grandma going
to be okay? What about my child if I have to?
And people have families on both sides too, so back
and forth, people are afraid. We're starting to see this
low level harassment that's being shown on social media where
(21:07):
Ice and Border Patrol and others are going into businesses
and asking for papers, even though Border Patrol tells us
they don't randomly ask for papers. We heard about a
school bus traveling from Las Cruses, which is right in
our region on the New Mexico state line, trying to
go to Albuquerque a swim team. They say, there's a
congressman in this area looking into the Border Patrol got
(21:28):
on the bus at a checkpoint and ask people for
their papers. So there is beginning to have anxiety, fear,
concerns about what this means for everyday life here on
the border and beyond.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Also, we can't forget what happened August twenty nineteen.
Speaker 6 (21:48):
The suspect on the Opaso massacre total arresting officers.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
He was targeting Mexicans that according to documents ob changed killing.
Images captured the gunmen on Walmart surveillance cameras range in
age from two to eighty two years old.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Navas cienos episodio torons with us.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
The audio. And that's in the minds of a lot
of people I talked to on both sides of the border.
Passi plottus that President Trump has unleash hate to a
new level. I mean on the border. We always think
of the border as a pignata, you know, where every
four years politicians will come, they hit it hard and
then see their poll numbers go up, get the donations. Nowadays,
(22:35):
it's an everyday thing. You know, you hit the pinata
which has been weaponized, and you're waiting for something bad
to go wrong for for these hate crimes. As journalists,
we have to be very careful to report what he
(22:56):
does and not what he says.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
And there is a real fear that words like invasion,
that those words will be used as that gunman did
to justify mass murder.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
There's so much hatred that it e spawns all this
fear on the border, and the border has been moved
to other parts of the United States. The border is
in New York, City, it's in Wisconsin, it's in Michigan,
so that border, that sentiment, that fear is not just
here anymore.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Alfredo Corcardo, Angela Corcega, thank you so much for joining
me on Latino USA. We're not walking away from covering
this story, so I appreciate all of your work and
dedication as great American journalists, which I gotta ask, yes,
that was long time journals Ahila Cocherga. She's also the
(24:02):
news director for kat e P and El Paso and
journalist and author Alfredo Corcado, who is with El Puente News.
(24:24):
This episode was produced by Fernando Chavari, who was edited
by Andrea Lopez Rusado and we had production assistants by
Roxanna Guire. It was mixed by j. J. Carubin. We
had helped from Feature Story News Studios and Robert Fraser.
The Latino USA team also includes Julia Caruso, Beliicia Dominez,
Jessica Elis, Victoria Streda, Dominique Inestrosa, Renaldo Leanos Junior, Stephane
(24:48):
le Beau, Luis Luna Marta Martinez, Dasa Sandoval, Nour Saudi
and Nancy Trujillo Fenili Ramirez, Margen, Bishop Maria Gazia and
myself are co executive producers and I'm I'm your host,
Madanga Polsa. Join us again on our next episode and
remember gomoci imprees.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Joao Latino USA is made possible in part by the
Heising Simons Foundation, unlocking knowledge, opportunity, and possibilities more at
hsfoundation dot org. The William and Flora Hewlett Foundation for
more than fifty years, advancing ideas and supporting institutions to
(25:31):
promote a better world at Hewlett dot org and Skyline
Foundation
From the moment Donald Trump entered the White House on
January twentieth. He made going after immigrants a priority, day
after day, week after week. He has gone beyond that
and also gone after Mexico as a country when it
hasn't done what he's wanted it to. He has threatened
(00:22):
tariffs on Mexican imports, designated Mexican drug cartels as terrorist organizations,
and says he has renamed the Gulf of Mexico, and well,
the list goes on and on. From Fludro Media and PRX,
(00:45):
it's Latino USA. I'm Marie jo Josa today a conversation
with journalists to better understand what's going on at the
US Mexico border and the delicate and long standing relationship
between the two countries. Today, I'm sitting down with Angela Cocherga,
longtime journalist who's also the news director for KTEP, the
(01:07):
public radio station in El Paso, and also sitting down
with renowned journalist and author Alfredo Corcado. They're going to
bring us context to help us understand the meaning of
what we're seeing in US Mexico relations right now, and
to help us make sense of it without falling into
the administration's trap of you know, basically being overwhelmed by
(01:30):
everything all at once. Thank you so much for joining
me on Latino USA from the wonderful desert in El Paso, Texas.
It's great to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Our pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
It's been a while since we've all talked together, actually,
but I think the moment merits.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
It not absolutely, very very a lot happening.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So I want to start by asking if the both
of you could talk about your personal relationship to Mexico,
to the United States and to the border, because the
three of us may know each other, but people are
there may not know you. So we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I'm from Durango, Elesta de la la Caran, born there,
grew up in Sa Juades because we were trying to
connect with my father, who at the time was Abraco
in the United States, in between El Paso, Arizona and California.
So from a very young age, at the age of six,
it was the border and this really became home, and
(02:26):
I reported for the Dallas More News among other publications,
for over thirty one years.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well. I was born in Mexico City and also raised
in Guaera, La Jara and on the Texas Mexico border
of South Texas in the Rio Grande Valley, and so
have lived a bi national life, bi national, bicultural, bilingual,
and have been covering the border both sides, which I
think is really important, Madia, for as you said, decades now,
(02:53):
we are og reporters.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
All right, so we are going to get into the
issues that are happening today, into the trump of it,
all right, But here at let you know, USA, we
actually think it's really important to look back at the history,
at the ups and downs in the relationships between the
US and Mexico in order to understand the context of
what's happening today. And we're going to keep this conversation
(03:18):
to the two thousands. We're going to start with nine
to eleven, which is something that actually completely changed how
the US treated immigrants and immigration, right.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Right, Yeah, I would say that nine to eleven profoundly
changed the border. The massive Department of Homeland Security was born,
and the focus was on security. So even legal trade
and people coming back and forth, everyone was perceived as
a possible threat. That made it very difficult. Passports were
now required, not just border crossing cars and cargo was
(03:51):
checked more thoroughly. So yes, it changed the dynamic from
neighbors and trading partners to possible threats.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Fast forward to what happens in Mexico. When President Philippe
Galdidon takes office.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Felipe Calderon declared war on the country's powerful cartels. He
sent the armed forces and federal police out on the streets.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So Felipe Calderon, the new Mexican president at the time,
declares a war on the drug cartels. And this basically
takes place from two thousand and six to twenty twelve.
And this is a really important moment. But just Angila
give us a sense of how this affected Mexico and
also the United States.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
It began as a violent presidency. He was sent a
message and I hate to be so graphic of several
decapitated heads being thrown on a dance floor and Mito
Khan and so kind of saying here, you want to
crack down, We're going to start this. And it became
horribly violent. It was a horribly bloody period and affected,
(04:53):
you know, not just it affected everyday Mexicans who who
were caught in the middle of all this. And this
bloodshed was horror and lasted for years.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
When ninety eleven happens, all the focus is about terrorism.
But in Mexico the cartels became harder and more tougher,
more emboldened. That picture that Angela talked about, the heads
rolling in a bar in mitra Gan. I think for
someone like Aleron, this kind of gave him a way
(05:25):
and to sort of find legitimacy, and him going to
Washington and meeting with the President Bush and telling President Bush, look,
it's like we opened the body thinking there was a
tumor inside and we could just remove it, and realizing
that the whole body was rotten, that the corruption was everywhere.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
This is when you start seeing massive movement of guns
from the United States into Mexico.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
During my government, we seize more than ninety thousand weapons
to the criminals, assault weapons ear fifteen, almost ten billions
of bullets.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
But they came from America.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yes, they came from America. And most of the criminals
in Mexico are buying even legally.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And basically it's this dynamic right that the United States
and Mexico on the question of drugs, it is a
problem of the both of them. Rightly, these countries are
tied together because of that, but they're also, as we know,
tied together because of the economics of the United States
(06:38):
and Mexico being major trading partners. So we're going to
move now to that conversation. The Obama administration is now
in power, right, it's post two thousand and eight. Felipe
Calderon is in office. It's twenty ten, twenty eleven, twenty twelve.
So these are years of economic recovery for the United States.
(06:59):
So let's talk about that particular economic moment visa the
the US and Mexico and start us off NFORIDAM.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
The recession was really felt on both sides, and you
started seeing this massive migration coming north. You know, at
the time, you know, people are talking about the New Mexico.
In Mexico and the lava. The people were supposed to
stay home, the younger generations were supposed to stay home,
and suddenly you just saw the influx of Mexicans going north.
(07:29):
And at the same time, you had a young US president,
President Obama, who was trying to at least in words,
he was saying, you know, they're trying to have this
landmark immigration reform, but to do that you had to
get operational control, whatever that means.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Angela and the Democrats have always tried to say, oh,
operational control. We're still trying to figure out what that
term means because it's constantly a goalpost that's moving. And
so President Obama earned during this time, then the porter
in chiefs. We also saw a different kind of migration
mighty as you know, families coming and children on their own,
the so called unaccompanied children, tens.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
Of thousands of children crossing the US border from Central America.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Officials that members of the media into the Nogalis facility
were about one thousand children from I saw a little
boy and probably ten years old, and he was pressed
up against the chain linked fence, just holding up his
face with his hands and he was crying.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
And today President Obama met with the presidents of Guatemala, Honduras,
and El Salvador to discuss what many are calling a
humanitarian crisis.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
The US government struggling to figure out how do we
address this type of immigration or migration, and what do
we do, where do we even put families and some
very controversial questions there.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
That kind of sets the stage for what happens with
a Donald Trump when he infamously gets on that gaudy
escalator in twenty fifteen and he announces his candidacy to
run for president and essentially insults Mexico. Angela did this
sort of set a new path?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Well, of course, there was shock and concern, and people
were insulted at all levels, both you know, people in power,
but also everyday Mexicans and Mexican Americans and others. But
the bottom line, Maria, he won the election, and the
border is a pignetta, and you bash it for votes,
you bash it for money, and it works.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
But I think that the thing that really a stock
out of my mind for years was how badly Enrique
Paganetto treated the situation. He was under attack, his country
was under attack. And what Doesto do. He invites candidate
Trump to Mexico City.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I mean, essentially he rolls out the red carpet. Okay,
so Angela, let's go to the presidency of Andres Manuel
Lopez O Rador.
Speaker 6 (09:56):
Celebrations broke out across Mexico City set the former mayor
of Mexico City, who's known as Amlo, will become Mexico's
first leftist president in decades.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
A leftist, an indigenous man, and there is Manuel Lopez
o Rador and he ends up having a very particular
relationship with Trump in his first administration as well. Set
the stage and Aila, tell us what you remember of
that time.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
It was. It was a time when you know, anytime
Trump make a thread, Lopez rod or what kind of
jump and say we'll do it, We'll do it. And
then the whole time you're you're realizing that this is
a very transactional relationship. I mean, I kept thinking, Mexico's
going to pay a huge price down the road.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And what do you remember about this time Mahi left,
We saw the budding relationship.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Really, Flower, these are two men who have a lot
in common. There are two sides, maybe different sides of
the same coin. Populist, powerful and really crushed critics. I'm
always not kind to any of his critics. You just
have to watch any of his early morning press conferences.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Coming up on Latino USA. Our conversation continues.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
These military flights, which are much more expensive, hold fewer
migrants are are being filled up and camera shots sent
out so everyone can see them.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Stay with us.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Hey, we're back. We're gonna jump right back into our
conversation with longtime border and immigration journalists Ahela Corcherga and
Alfredo Corcado.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Okay, for primera vez endosientoso republica, me converertier in la
primera moheer president.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Now there's a new election in Mexico and I'm a
little successor wins. Her name is Claudia Shamebam. She's the
first woman president and she's very very different in terms
of her personality. This is a big, big change to
see Claudia Shamebaum in response to Trump, I'm going to
(12:23):
start with you, Angila.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well, first of all, it's imporn to point out she
is a protege of Amblo, but she's also come into
her own as the new president of Mexico, and she
has a very different personality. She's not a bombastic or flamboyant.
She's very calm. She's an academic and her dealings have
been very calm, cool and collected.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Shane Bond repeatedly says, you need someone what they like
Cavet Safria.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
It's important Britain Caria to.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Deal with them. Shamee. Bond has learned the playbook, be nice,
play give him the marbles, give him the time out,
you know, in the corner. But at the same time,
keep the bigger picture, the fact that Mexico exports eighty
percent of its good to the United States, you know,
to focus on the migration, on the future of Mexico
(13:17):
in mind as you deal with this naughty, naughty boy.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Considering how Donald Trump deals with other world leaders, and
considering what we know in terms of how he deals
with women by the courts. By the way, this moment
of when we hear a Donald Trump saying, actually giving
praises to a woman, a Mexican woman at that.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
But I've we was speaking to the president of Mexico,
a very wonderful woman. Actually we were talking about drugs.
I said, are you a You're not a big drug
taking nation and she said, no, we are not a consumer.
We're not a consumer of drugs. I said, what an
interesting and why why is that? He said? She said, well,
we have very strong family values. I said, but we
(14:02):
do too, She said, Plus we advertise. I said, whoh
you mean you advertise about how bad drugs are. Yes,
we do. We spend a lot of money on advertising.
And I said, unbelievable. You know, I make so many calls,
and I never learned anything from anybody. I know everything,
and I never learned anything from anybody. And I spoke
to this woman as soon as she said it. I
(14:22):
was going to call her and tell her that she did.
But now I don't have to call her because she's
going to be seeing this right now. So to the
President of Mexico, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I think all world leaders have to be watching Claudia
to learn a thing or two about how to handle
President Trump.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
We're going to move on to some more sadly difficult issues, right,
which is the question of deportations.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
Now.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Certainly Donald Trump has been very performative about serving this
up to his base, which I guess they want to
see family separated, children crying. You know. He has said
that he was going to conduct the biggest deportation effort
ever seen. So far, we haven't seen those high numbers.
How's this playing out?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
We have correspondence from Tijuana, Sonora, from the Texas Valley, Reinosa, Matamotos.
We are just phased second a tour of many Mexican
shelters along the border, and the shelters remain empty. I
mean they have not gotten the kind of volume that
they thought they would. It can become a reality. But
(15:34):
at the same time they also know that this would
also be very, very hurtful for us the economy. We
are coming up against the harvest season in the United
States and we've all seen videos, you know, of empty feels, etc.
But it's impressive, how shamebon it is plain this. I mean,
(15:57):
it's all for the cameras. I mean, I look at
and I think these are great optics. She's got the
National guardsman at the shelters, she has them digging tunnels
to see if they find any clad side tunnels to
smuggle immigrants. She's got them by the International Bridge looking
for fentanyl. And anytime this happens, there's a tip to
(16:19):
the price to show up, send a message a north.
And then she also is urging the private industry, the
public industry, to create jobs in Mexico, not only for
Mexicans who may be coming back home or who are
coming back home at very small numbers, but also for
Central Americans Venezuelanos, guvanos, people who may stay in Mexico
(16:43):
because Mexico also has industries at where there are workers shortages.
So she's looking at the immediate game and at the
long term what's to come Madia.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
If I could jump in that's shelter and what is
that mega shelters one of ten all along the border
in border cities in Mexico Go that can hold up
to twenty five one hundred people and they're empty. So yes, prepared,
but up to now the numbers we have not seen
the numbers. We have seen people put on military flights
from here. We're kind of in the hub of it
all Il Paso. There's Fort Bliss, there's big army airfield
(17:16):
where these military flights, which are much more expensive hold
fewer migrants are being filled up and cameras shots sent
out so everyone can see them.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
And for the first time, military planes are making deportation
flights at C seventeen at Fort Bliss, Texas migrants in restraint.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
See about eighty men, women and children recent arrivals in
the US, stepping off buses and stepping on to military
transport jets. So it's interesting how both are using the
optics to appeal to their base as it were. One
(17:54):
thing that Donald Trump did do is to say that
he was going to give mexecond drug cartels designation of
foreign terrorist organizations, So you know, we have to think again.
We started by talking about nine to eleven, which is
kind of when the whole shift of the conversation moves
towards terrorism. Has it in fact become official that the
(18:16):
drug cartels are now in fact seen and dealt with
legally as terrorist organizations And what does this mean for
the relationship between the two countries.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Well, first of all, it's a very complex, complex situation
to designate them terrorists organizations because the cartels their hold
on the Mexican economy as such that they're in the
industry of tourism. What got these avocados? I mean, you
(18:51):
can go on and on and on. Some of these
industries have a buy in from foreign investors from the
United States. So to designate them it could be shooting
yourself in the foot. It could be very very difficult,
very embarrassing, if you will, for both countries. At the
same time, I think it's meant to be a thorn
(19:13):
on the side of shameebon to keep that label above
you and say no, you're not doing enough, No, no,
this is not happening. And by the way, you are
colluding with the cartels. And so it's a very I
think of all the challenges facing Shamebon, this is the
(19:35):
most difficult one. This is the more thorny one. But
I think when you talk to Mexicans on the street,
there's a sense of we need help from the United
States to deal with the security issue. It's a domestic
challenge but also an international challenge for the Shamebon.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So we've been talking about these, you know, long standing
politics between the United States and Mexico, two countries that
are inseparable from each other. In the area where you live,
El Paso, people are going back and forth all the time, right,
a very commercial and frankly full of life kind of
(20:13):
area in our country, Angila, tell us what it's been
like on a day to day, like, what are you
feeling given this new administration from Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Well, first of all, I'm so glad you pointed out, Maria,
these are vibrant border communities where there is life, there
is joy, and there are families with ties on both sides,
very strong ties, economic ties, trade, all of that. But
there also is now this shared fear. As you know,
there are many mixed status families here and all over
(20:44):
the US. So people are concerned and concerned to do
basic things. And also because the state of Texas has
also had a crackdown, so you know, is Grandma going
to be okay? What about my child if I have to?
And people have families on both sides too, so back
and forth, people are afraid. We're starting to see this
low level harassment that's being shown on social media where
(21:07):
Ice and Border Patrol and others are going into businesses
and asking for papers, even though Border Patrol tells us
they don't randomly ask for papers. We heard about a
school bus traveling from Las Cruses, which is right in
our region on the New Mexico state line, trying to
go to Albuquerque a swim team. They say, there's a
congressman in this area looking into the Border Patrol got
(21:28):
on the bus at a checkpoint and ask people for
their papers. So there is beginning to have anxiety, fear,
concerns about what this means for everyday life here on
the border and beyond.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Also, we can't forget what happened August twenty nineteen.
Speaker 6 (21:48):
The suspect on the Opaso massacre total arresting officers.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
He was targeting Mexicans that according to documents ob changed killing.
Images captured the gunmen on Walmart surveillance cameras range in
age from two to eighty two years old.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Navas cienos episodio torons with us.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
The audio. And that's in the minds of a lot
of people I talked to on both sides of the border.
Passi plottus that President Trump has unleash hate to a
new level. I mean on the border. We always think
of the border as a pignata, you know, where every
four years politicians will come, they hit it hard and
then see their poll numbers go up, get the donations. Nowadays,
(22:35):
it's an everyday thing. You know, you hit the pinata
which has been weaponized, and you're waiting for something bad
to go wrong for for these hate crimes. As journalists,
we have to be very careful to report what he
(22:56):
does and not what he says.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
And there is a real fear that words like invasion,
that those words will be used as that gunman did
to justify mass murder.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
There's so much hatred that it e spawns all this
fear on the border, and the border has been moved
to other parts of the United States. The border is
in New York, City, it's in Wisconsin, it's in Michigan,
so that border, that sentiment, that fear is not just
here anymore.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Alfredo Corcardo, Angela Corcega, thank you so much for joining
me on Latino USA. We're not walking away from covering
this story, so I appreciate all of your work and
dedication as great American journalists, which I gotta ask, yes,
that was long time journals Ahila Cocherga. She's also the
(24:02):
news director for kat e P and El Paso and
journalist and author Alfredo Corcado, who is with El Puente News.
(24:24):
This episode was produced by Fernando Chavari, who was edited
by Andrea Lopez Rusado and we had production assistants by
Roxanna Guire. It was mixed by j. J. Carubin. We
had helped from Feature Story News Studios and Robert Fraser.
The Latino USA team also includes Julia Caruso, Beliicia Dominez,
Jessica Elis, Victoria Streda, Dominique Inestrosa, Renaldo Leanos Junior, Stephane
(24:48):
le Beau, Luis Luna Marta Martinez, Dasa Sandoval, Nour Saudi
and Nancy Trujillo Fenili Ramirez, Margen, Bishop Maria Gazia and
myself are co executive producers and I'm I'm your host,
Madanga Polsa. Join us again on our next episode and
remember gomoci imprees.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Joao Latino USA is made possible in part by the
Heising Simons Foundation, unlocking knowledge, opportunity, and possibilities more at
hsfoundation dot org. The William and Flora Hewlett Foundation for
more than fifty years, advancing ideas and supporting institutions to
(25:31):
promote a better world at Hewlett dot org and Skyline
Foundation
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