April 27, 2025 • 50 mins
What began as an ordinary traffic stop for Kilmar Abrego Garcia escalated into a nightmare at the center of a Supreme Court decision. The immigrant Maryland father was deported to El Salvador’s mega prison because of an “administrative error.” But even at the Supreme Court’s direction, the Trump administration has still not brought Kilmar back.
This case has tipped the scales: “We are in a moment of constitutional crisis.”
We break down what this case means and also bring you exclusive reporting about a Venezuelan man with no criminal record who was taken simply because of his tattoos.
Latino USA is the longest-running news and culture radio program in the U.S., centering Latino stories and hosted by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Maria Hinojosa.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's a Wednesday in mid March, and twenty nine year
old k Abrigo Garcia is driving home. He just picked
up his five year old son at grandma's house. Kilmar
notices some sort of law enforcement vehicle trying to pull
him over. Kilmar is not far from home, so he
pulls into an Ikea parking lot. He rolls down the
(00:23):
window of his car and thinks that this is just
going to be a regular traffic stop. He calls his wife,
Jennifer Vasquez Sura, and she tells him to put her
on speaker. Jennifer can now hear the officer tell Kilmar
to turn off the car and step outside of his vehicle.
Kilmar says his son is in the backseat and that
(00:46):
he has special needs. Then Kilmar's phone goes silent. A
few minutes later, Jennifer gets a phone call from someone
who says they're with the Department of Homeland Security. You
need to come get your son. When she arrives, she
sees her husband sitting on the curb in handcuffs. Their
(01:07):
son is crying hysterically, and the officials on the scene
tell her that Gilmar's immigration status has changed and that
they're going to take him away. The couple is sure
this is a mistake and that whatever is going on
will be resolved soon. Jennifer never could have imagined what
(01:27):
would come next.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
And she'd told me Lindsey that the only reason she
was able to confirm that he indeed had been imprisoned
at this notorious mega prison is because the Salvadoran government
posted a photo of her husband and she was able
to identify him.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
The Trump administration initially admitted they made a mistake, that
they sent Kilmar to El Salvador's Mega prison because of
an administrative error.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
If the Supreme Court said bring somebody back out with you,
that I respect.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
The Supreme Court has ordered them to correct this error.
But now Trump is defying the Supreme Court, saying Kilmar
will stay in Salvador and hurling our country into a
constitutional crisis. From Vuduro media and PRX, It's Latino Usa.
(02:20):
I'm Maria jo Josa. Today we're looking at what's at
stake in the deportations to El Salvador. Later, the story
of a Venezuelan man who was also sent to El
Salvador's prison simply because of his tattoos. And why do
process rights for all Americans are in fact affected by
(02:42):
cases like these. Let's get back to Kim Abrego Garcias's story.
Now you've seen the coverage of it everywhere.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
An administrative error. That's how ICE is explaining why a
Maryland man with protective legal status was sent to a
notorious prison in El Salvador. Kilmar Abrego Garcia's attorneys are
now asking the government of El Salvador to return him.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
The Supreme Court blocking the deportation of some Venezuelan migrants
accused by the Trump administration of being gang members under
the Alien Enemies Act, a century's old law that provides
little to no due process.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Guiedemud has been locked away in El Salvador for more
than a month now. He has never been charged with
a crime in the United States, but the Trump administration
has still accused him of being a gang member.
Speaker 6 (03:35):
This man is a very violent person, and they want
this man to be brought back into our country where
he can be free.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
The Trump administration is using a restraining order once filed
by Guiedemard's wife to prove he should be deported, but
his wife said that she and guiedmad have worked past
arguments that happened years ago.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
The President doubled down today, alleging mister Garcia is a
criminal and setting up the question what happens if the
Trump administration constantly ignores the courts.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Gilmer's wife, who is a US citizen, has continued to
speak out on his behalf to try to get him
back home.
Speaker 8 (04:16):
He is a father, a son, a brother, and a
proud member of GASSA who has dedicated hi himself to
make our families American dream reality, and we will never
give up on you Kilmar.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Democratic members of Congress have said Gilmar, like all people
in the United States, has a constitutional right to defend
himself against accusations. This issue is more than about Kilmore.
It's about due process. We all should be terrified. And
on the Republican side, there's also been pushbacking.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
A guy from mel Salvador.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Like at a constituent meeting with Iowa Senator Chuck Grass recently,
what are you going to do about these people who
have been sentenced to life's imprisonment in a foreign country.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
With no due process?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Why won't you do your job?
Speaker 9 (05:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And this is how New York Times opinion writer Ezra
Clente sees it.
Speaker 10 (05:17):
This is not about their guilt. It is about his power.
This is how dictatorships work. Trump has always been clear
about who he is and the kind of power he wants.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So we're going to start our show by looking at
what this case means for all of us when it
comes to due process. For that, I'm going to be
in conversation with Laura Muckergee. She's a lawyer. She's also
the director of the Columbia University Law School Immigrant Writes Clinic.
Laura Muckergee, Welcome to Latino, USA.
Speaker 9 (05:55):
Thank you so much for having me so Laura.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
This term constitutional crisis has been kind of swirling above
the United States of America for a while now. A
lot of people in mainstream media saying we are inching
closer to a constitutional crisis, but you actually say we
are at that moment.
Speaker 9 (06:17):
We are in a moment of constitutional crisis. The executive
branch is pushing the bounds of executive power well beyond
what is set up in the checks and balances system
of our US Constitution. The President and his administration have
been in flat out defiance of multiple federal court orders,
(06:39):
including in mister Kilmara Brigo Garcia's case flat out defiance
of a US Supreme Court order. Our nation has rarely
seen moments like this, and we are in a moment
of constitutional crisis right now. But the constitutional crisis didn't
just develop over the past month. We've been in a
(07:00):
moment of constitutional crisis since January twentieth.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
That's a good one. Birthright, that's a big one.
Speaker 9 (07:09):
The President signed an executive order purporting to end birthright
citizenship for large numbers of people who would be born
in the United States. This shows a president who is
in willful disregard of the clear language of the US Constitution,
and that is the moment when the constitutional crisis began.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So at this point where there is this clear defiance,
not once, but multiple times, what happens next.
Speaker 9 (07:40):
That's the big question. We are seeing that there is
increasing public concern about what the president is doing. We're
seeing this through mass protests and rallies in the street.
We are seeing this through many district court opinions for
district court opinions that are trying to rein in and
(08:03):
check the executive branch. At the same time, we're also
seeing Congress try to step in. In recent days, Senator
Van Holland from Maryland went down to El Salvador.
Speaker 11 (08:15):
I called Jennifer to tell her that I had met
with Kilmore, and I told her what he said to me,
which was first and foremost, that he missed he and
his family.
Speaker 9 (08:30):
That is an example of Congress trying to check the
abuses of the executive branch. But in terms of your
big question, Maria, what will happen next to our constitutional democracy?
It is unclear.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I have to say, Laura, there are many days, too
many when I wake up and I say, how is
it possible that the one thing that I have been
reporting on right for decades, kind of saying immigrants, those
of us not or in this country we are canaries
in the mind, the racism, the prejudice against us. It
(09:05):
is I'm raising the red flag. But how have we
gotten to where we are now in terms of immigration
policies and frankly the role of the Supreme Court in
getting us to this point?
Speaker 9 (09:18):
Maria? That's a question I also ask myself on almost
a daily basis, how have we gotten to this point?
How has it gotten so bad? How is it possible
that our nation's immigration policy is now driven by cruelty,
white nationalism, xenophobia, and racism. How are we at a
(09:38):
point where the President has now repeatedly openly said that
the next group of people he's going to deport are
those who are homegrown, meaning US citizens born on US soil,
who he wants to remove from the United States, and
flagrant violation of multiple provisions of the US Constitution and
(09:59):
long standing US Supreme Court precedent. I think part of
the challenge is that we have lost a majority of
the Supreme Court for years to come. There are decisions
from the Supreme Court, including the Muslim ban decision from
(10:22):
the first Trump administration that has laid a foundation for
emboldening the second Trump administration into thinking that they can
do basically what they wish with regard to immigration policy.
And the Trump administration this time around has had four
years to prepare their agenda, and unlike the first time around,
(10:47):
this time they came in prepared and they have carried
out so many changes in three months time startling. It's overwhelming,
and I think very few people expected it to be
this bad, this fast.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
When we come back, I pick up my conversation with
Attorney Laura Mukherjee later We're going to talk about what
everyday people can do at a moment like this. Stay
with us, Yes, Hey, we're back. When we left off,
(11:39):
we heard about Guilmar Abrego Garciez case. He's a man
who the administration initially admitted was in fact wrongfully sent
to El Salvador. The US Supreme Court has ruled that
the administration must right it's wrong. But the ruling seems
to be ignored. So let's return now to my conversation
(12:01):
with a. Laura Mukerjee. She's a lawyer and director of
the Columbia University Law School Immigrant Rights Clinic. We're going
to discuss what Kilmar's case means for everyone in the
United States. So what the Supreme Court said is essentially
on April tenth, that the Trump administration must facilitate Kilmar's return.
(12:23):
That hasn't happened. Where are we at in terms of
this particular case.
Speaker 9 (12:27):
Mister Kilmara Brigo Garcia's case is an example of the
Supreme Court giving the executive branch some room in terms
of its choices about what to do. The District Court
in mister Kilmara Brigo Garcia's case required the executive branch
to facilitate and effectuate his return to the US. The
(12:49):
District court's opinion gave the executive branch no wiggle room
in terms of bringing him back to the US. The
Supreme Court, on the other hand, and made the district
courts ruling a bit more lacks a bit more room
for there to be an argument that the executive branch
(13:13):
could quote unquote facilitate his return, but that it was
not required to bring him back.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So let's just take it to the next level, right, So,
is there anything that the Supreme Court can do to
make the federal government comply with an order? What are
other ways that we can be sure that the administration
follows the law as handed down by the Supreme Court.
Speaker 9 (13:41):
Mister Guilmara Brigo Garcia's case is challenging. He is no
longer on US soil. He's in El Salvador, in this
prison with horrendous conditions. It is potentially difficult for federal
courts to demand that he be brought back. And I
(14:02):
think the Supreme Court is increasingly realizing that we are
in a moment of constitutional crisis, and that is why
over the weekend, it seems like the Supreme Court didn't
give the executive branch the benefit of the doubt when
they heard from the ACLU that dozens and dozens of
(14:23):
Venezuela and men were being prepared to be put on
a deportation flight to El Salvador. That is why the
US Supreme Court in that case moved much faster and
issued a short order just before one am on Saturday.
This is extremely unusual for the US Supreme Court to
move so fast to issue a summary order stopping deportations,
(14:48):
and the Supreme Court when it issued that order just
before one am on Saturday, they didn't even allow sufficient
time for two dissenting justices, Justice Thomas and Justice Alito
to file and publish their descents at that time. Their
dissent came later in the day. This is an example
(15:11):
of the Supreme Court, I think, recognizing the constitutional crisis
we're in and realizing that the Court's legitimacy, the legitimacy
of the third branch of government depends on how they
respond to accesses and abuses by the executive branch. But
the courts alone will not save us in this moment.
(15:32):
We need Congress to step in in the way that
Senator Van Holland has tried to and we need the
American people to be vocal in trying to constrain the
executive branch, to be out in the street, peacefully protesting.
Speaker 12 (15:48):
Demonstrations against President Donald Trump are happening in Washington, DC
and cities across the nation today too.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Rallies in downtown LA.
Speaker 12 (15:57):
Dozens of people rallied in front of the New York
Public Library. Demonstrators say they feel deportations are happening without
due process.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Can I ask you specifically though, about that question of
as dollar is where that would say people power right,
people taking to the streets. What is the power legally
in terms of when you're in a constitutional crisis of
people taking to the streets.
Speaker 9 (16:22):
Court decisions don't happen in a vacuum. Court decisions are
responsive to social movements, movements of racial justice, immigrants rights,
and other movements of the moment. It is unclear whether
the Supreme Court would have issued its decisions Saturday just
(16:42):
before one am if there had not already been massive
protests in the streets across the United States and in
cities around the world, and if members of Congress were
not also trying to constrain the executive branch. This is
a particular moment in time where the American people are
(17:04):
critical for determining the future for our country.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
And now I actually want to turn towards somebody who
is not an American citizen but is playing a central
role in all of this, and that is Salvadoran President
Naibu Kele.
Speaker 13 (17:17):
We just saw some of this over office exchange with
during Trump and the President El Salvador. That president was asked,
are you going to send Albrigo Versiam back?
Speaker 4 (17:29):
And he said he doesn't have the authority the power
to send kill mar Bringo Garcia back to the United States.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
What do you make of this taunting? And does the
United States legally have the ability to do anything regarding this?
Speaker 9 (17:44):
The taunting of the federal courts, of the American public,
of concerned immigrants, immigrant communities, immigrants rights advocates is a show,
and it is appalling to see how these two presidents
seem to be disregarding completely, willfully disregarding the rule of flaw.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
One of the things that I've been hearing a Laura
on the ground as I've been talking to Latinos and
non Latinos, is a response essentially that says, well, our
country has been invaded from the southern border. It's out
of control. The people who have been taken are they
would say illegal, a term I don't use. They are undocumented.
(18:36):
They must have done some to deserve this. What's your
response when you hear that kind of argument?
Speaker 9 (18:43):
That type of argument seems to be somewhat of a
self protective mechanism, So it can happen to them, it
can't happen to me. But if we look at Venezuela
nationals who've been taken to El Salvador, overwhelmingly they do
not have criminal convictions, certainly not that are serious. Some
(19:05):
are simply tattoo artists. Many had pending asylum applications. Many
were complying with all of the requirements set forth by
ICE in terms of showing up for their check ins
and going to immigration corps, and they had hearings scheduled
in their cases. Similarly, the targeting of lawful permanent residents
(19:27):
is nearly unheard of, so in terms of the foreign
policy deportability ground. Before March of twenty twenty five, it
was invoked by the Secretary of State in only fifteen
known cases in US history, and never before March twenty
twenty five was invoked against lawful permanent residents period, and
(19:52):
certainly not against lawful permanent residents who had no criminal
records had been living in the United States peacefully for years.
We are living in a dangerous moment, an unprecedented moment,
where rights that I took absolutely for granted four months
(20:13):
ago are being questioned and challenged to a degree that
I never imagined possible, and it's resulting in people making
changes to their daily lives. People are reaching out to
me on a daily basis, asking should I post on
social media? Should I go to protests, Should I travel abroad?
Should I travel domestically? People are really scared right now,
(20:38):
and it's not people who have been accused of or
been convicted of crimes. It's ordinary people, law abiding people
who are being swept up in this moment that we're
in of ramped up immigration enforcement.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
The administration continues relentlessly to say these things about Quirimara
Abrego Garcia in terms of wanting to paint him as
somebody with a criminal record. There has been no legal
proof of any of the things that they've been saying,
which leads me to the question that, well, any of
(21:22):
us then could be in the same situation right where
you are taken and essentially denied due process, and that
we don't have cases presented against us that are factual?
Am I pushing the envelope too far? How alarmed do
American citizens and those of US who are not born
(21:43):
in the country need to be about this administration taking
us and not having to present any evidence against us.
Speaker 9 (21:52):
I am alarmed. I know many others are alarmed to.
It is a moment that raises deep alarms. And Maria,
it's not just you who is worrying about this. Justice
Sonia Soto Mayor wrote in her dissenting opinion that if
(22:12):
the executive Branch is to be taken at its word
in terms of the reach of its executive authority, than
all people, including US citizens born on US soil, could
be subject to summary deportations from the United States with
no due process of law.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So you're raising the red flag. It's a huge red flag.
You're waving it, or you're just standing there with the
red flag, but it could start to get waved more
intensely any day now.
Speaker 14 (22:44):
I've been waving the red flag for months now. Yes,
I am standing there, I'm not just waving a red flag.
I'm waving a red banner. I'm getting as many people
as I can to wave it with me.
Speaker 9 (22:56):
I think it's really important for a mess Americans at
this moment to realize that we are at a tipping point. Either,
depending on the choices we collectively make at this point,
we will save our constitutional democracy or our nation will
(23:16):
fall to authoritarianism.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Laura, thank you so much for speaking with me on
Let the Know USA.
Speaker 9 (23:28):
Thank you, Maria.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That was a Laura Muckerjee. She's a lawyer and director
of the Columbia University Law School Immigrant Rights Clinic. Now,
dear listener, we're going to bring you the story of
another man who has removed from the country without due process.
His story has never been told. In fact, his family
(23:52):
spoke exclusively to Leatino USA. His case shows how the
US government is using tattoos to miss label and discriminate
against immigrants. It was about a year ago when Thatio
left his home country of Venezuela. He trekked through the
(24:13):
dangerous Dadian Gap, and then he crossed through several Central
American countries along the way. That Io tried to stay
in touch with his mom Paula, who was in Venezuela
also with his older brother Ramido. He had emigrated more
than two years before and was already in the United States.
(24:37):
Over his month's long journey, Thatio sent them messages, short
but vital ones to show that he was okay, like
this one where he's talking about the money that he
needs in order to keep moving North.
Speaker 15 (24:53):
Samana.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
That is in his early twenties. He has light brown skin,
his hair is neatly cut. Baula, his mom, says that
he has an ability to make anyone.
Speaker 16 (25:07):
Laugh, lace and stay una grascia Ilia.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
We are calling them Dario, Baula and Ramiro. In fact,
these aren't their real names. They asked us to protect
their identity, and so we're honoring that request. Now. Dadio
wanted to enter the United States legally, so he applied
for entry through the CBP one app, which allowed migrants
(25:38):
to start their asylum process. In August twenty twenty four,
he was legally allowed into the country, crossing through the
California border.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Nias Inn.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Baula says that her son underwent and passed health screenings. Yes,
Thatio also went through something called the Credible Fear screening
This is what immigration officials use in order to determine
if a migrant faces real danger if they are sent
(26:13):
back to their home country, and in fact, back home
in Venezuela, Thatio had spoken out against the Maduro government,
he was retaliated against, and so he passed that screening.
But then.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
As high US.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Immigration officials took that Eo to a detention facility in Louisiana.
Ramidro says he and his brother were raised to follow
the rule of law, so Dadio's detention was a surprise
to the family. He had been allowed in legally. Familia Ramiro,
(26:58):
the brother, sprung into action. He hired their current immigration attorney,
Osbaldo Caro Gruz. Cao Gruz says one of the reasons
that Eo was detained was because he presented an expired
passport at the border.
Speaker 15 (27:13):
Obviously, if you're being chased by a regime, you cannot
renew your passport. You know, it's not that easy.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So that EO's American attorney filed an application for asylum,
also withholding of removal, and he applied for protection under
the Convention Against Torture Act. And throughout all of this,
that Io was held in that detention facility. Still in detention,
(27:42):
that Io started to hear rumblings about something that was
happening all around him.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
It bolts easy if they don't.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Apparently, his mom says that Io was hearing from immigration
officials that he was going to be deported back to Venezuela.
But then things took a sharp turn. That Eo was
transferred to the Elbaya detention facility in South Texas without notice,
and then things took an even more bizarre turn.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Ian Bomingo, it's the Miamira.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Ramiro frantically called his mom, Baula, and said it looked
like Thatio had been removed from the United States, but
that he wasn't sent back to Venezuela.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
It wasalf and we.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Baula was stunned her son didn't have a deportation order,
so she asked Ramiro to reach out to the lawyer
and find out what was going on.
Speaker 16 (28:58):
Pinto s maybe, saying no.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
It turned out that Rio and two hundred and thirty
seven other Venezuelan men were sent to secot Baola didn't
want to believe it. She couldn't believe it, but then
the news confirmed it.
Speaker 17 (29:25):
Zibeas News has obtained a list of the two hundred
and thirty eight Venezuelan men the Trump administration recently deported
to El Salvador, and the administration has said it carefully
vened each of the individuals to verify they are connected
to a notorious Venezuelan gang.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Baula got a hold of the report and went down
the list of names, one by one.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
EA to welcome me.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Her son that Rio was in fact being held in Secotoca.
Speaker 16 (30:00):
Som cagno perol man, you mean Venezuela.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Paula felt like she was losing her mind. More than
fifteen hundred miles and several countries now separated her in
Venezuela from Dario in Salvador.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Venezuela, no guma you play bar Salvador.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
She says that if her son that he had been
sent back to Venezuela, she would have even tried to
speak with the country's president there. But in Al Salvador,
what could she do. The Trump administration has said that
the Venezuelan men he deported to El Salvador are quote terrorists.
Speaker 7 (30:56):
Loved when Borg has told them immigration authorities sent his
tattoo was evidence of ties to the trendy Iragua gang.
The tattoo was a rainbow colored ribbon made up of
puzzle pieces, the symbol for autism awareness, along with the
name of Bores' younger brother who has autism.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
And his administration has used the way these men dress
and their tattoos as proof that they fit the description.
Speaker 15 (31:20):
The only reason they stopped him is because of the tattoos.
To be honest, that's why he was attained.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
That EO's story of mislabeling because of his tattoos exemplifies
a long history of discrimination at the hands of the
US government. This year here at Latino USAY, we've been
(31:49):
reporting on the government's fierce targeting of immigrants and their
fight for due process. We've looked at the relationship between
Ensa Vador's forty three year old president and the Trump administration.
Speaker 18 (32:03):
I think they're part of a global network of ideologically
aligning the parties. You know, you could tie them to
Victor Horbaugh and others on international scale.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
They share an anti.
Speaker 18 (32:15):
Globalism quote unquote discourse, deep hostility towards critical civil society
organizations and press freedom.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
We've heard from a Venezuelan man who has detained fifteen
days in Guantanamo before being deported back to his homeland.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Joined King.
Speaker 6 (32:43):
Kuan describes the fifteen days that followed as torture.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
And I recently sat down with one of the attorneys
for Macmurkhalil, a Columbia University student targeted for exercising his
right to free speech.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
I think that is absolutely the goal. The goal is
to silence dissent.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
That's why the response that we're seeing.
Speaker 15 (33:07):
Not just in the courts and not just in the media,
but on the streets as well, is that much more important.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
It is crucial. This is not just about mister Khalil.
It's not just about folks who believes in.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
The rights of Palestinians and the right to live.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
It is about everyone's freedom of speech, everyone's two process rights.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Coming up on Latino USA, producer Renaldo Leanos Junior continues
telling us that EO's story of imprisonment that was sparked
by his tattoos, and also how for decades immigrant men
have been mislabeled as gang members just because of their tattoos.
Stay with Us notes when we left off, we had
(34:10):
met Dario's family. Dario is a Venezuelan man with no
known criminal record. Still, he's been sent to Al Salvador's
mega prison named SECOT. His family and his attorney have
been unable to reach him since mid March, and they
continue fighting on his behalf. Latino USA producer Renaldo Lanos
(34:33):
Junior is going to pick up our exclusive reporting from here.
Speaker 19 (34:39):
It's been over a month since Baula San Dario was
locked away in Olsavador's infamous mega prison, Mamianda. She has
not been able to speak with him. Actually, no one.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Has me in loosenti me no no.
Speaker 19 (35:08):
Balla says that EO's removal to Osalvador is an injustice
and that just because her son has a tattoo, it
doesn't mean that he's a criminal. Osvaldo, the family's attorney
in Florida, shared a photo with me. It shows some
of that EO's tattoos that he believes sparked immigration officials
to flag him.
Speaker 15 (35:28):
It seems that they saw three tattoos which grabbed the
CBB officer's attention, a crown, a clock in a rows,
and those tattoos were the basis for his attention and
eventually his removal to and Salar.
Speaker 19 (35:46):
According to immigration documents, I reviewed in that EO's case,
the government concluded that that Rio had quote gang related tattoos.
The tattoos are well known tattoos that rend Ragua gang
members tend to have. The ji denied being a part
of trend de Ragua or any other gang, and close quote.
In February, about a month before that Yeo was sent
(36:08):
to Es Salvador, the Trump administration designated the Venezuelan gangren
de Ragua as a foreign terrorist organization, but that EO's
immigration documents state that he has no criminal history. His
attorney says he also did his due diligence and found
no criminal history in Venezuela either. It's also important to
(36:29):
note that experts who study the rend Agua say that
there is no specific tattoo or tattoos that trend de
Ragua members use across the board to show that they
are affiliated with the gang. CBS's sixty Minutes also reported
recently that.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
We've obtained a list of their identities and found that
an overwhelming majority have no apparent criminal convictions or even
criminal charges.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
They are now prisoners.
Speaker 19 (36:58):
Sending these men to Es Salvador has raised a lot
of ethical and legal questions. And that Io's attorney knows
that the stakes are high.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Who asked you as.
Speaker 15 (37:08):
Diction over over these people is in the US. This
is something so new and so horrible. I'm extremely worried
that something might happen, man, and I'm also worried that
you might never get out.
Speaker 19 (37:28):
Paula is constantly checking in with for any updates on
her Sonka you be looking. She prais to God every
single day that Dario is freed soon. If not, she says,
(37:50):
she's gonna go crazy as the days and week go by.
I make it a point to try and stay in
touch with Baola, that Heo's mom, but she says speaking
to me is getting harder. Her son is locked away
in a Salvador in prison known for detaining people without
(38:13):
a trial and depriving them of any contact with the
outside world. She says she can barely handle it the
(38:40):
So how is it that so many Venezuelans are being
labeled as gang members. One way immigration officials are determining
if someone belongs to the RAGA is by using a
point system, a kind of scorecard with six categories that
include things like hand gestures and tattoos.
Speaker 6 (38:58):
According to the guide, the score of age or higher
can mean people are quote validated as members of TDA
and could be deported after consulting with a Department of
Homeland Security supervisor or legal advisor.
Speaker 19 (39:11):
This checklist came as a surprise to Osvaldo that he
owns attorney.
Speaker 15 (39:16):
Seeing a list with several items which automatically describes you
as someone who who's part of a friend THATAWUA, it
was just unbelievable, to be honest.
Speaker 19 (39:30):
This specific point system was created by the current Trump administration,
but throughout the years, the Department of Homeland Security and
other state and local agencies have used tattoos and other
items to help determine if someone documented or not is
a gang member. So when Sean Garcia Lais first heard
(39:51):
about dozens of alleged trender AGUA members being sent to
El Salvador, he suspected something might be off.
Speaker 20 (39:58):
As somebody who has worked extensively on law enforcement gang
affiliation allegations, I knew that at least half of those
people were probably not gang involved at all, or if
they ever had been in the past, weren't gang involved now.
Speaker 19 (40:16):
Sean is the executive director of the Peace and Justice
Center in California. He's also a civil rights attorney.
Speaker 20 (40:23):
I've reviewed gang databases in different cities across America, and
I have never come across any set of gang allegations
involving dozens, much less hundreds of people in which the
error rate was not at least fifty percent, and sometimes
much higher than that.
Speaker 19 (40:44):
Sean has also worked on reform to stop mislabeling people
as gang members. In twenty sixteen, he co authored a
report named Mislabeled Allegations of Gang Membership and their Immigration Consequences.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
It was a collaboration with.
Speaker 19 (40:59):
The Universe City of California or Vine School of Law
to see how being wrongly accused of being a gang
member impacts people with immigration court cases, like their eligibility
for dhaka and other forms of protection. But the mislabelling
of gang members doesn't only happen with immigrants.
Speaker 20 (41:18):
African Americans in particular have been long subject to gang allegations,
and those who work with those communities are often targeted.
Speaker 19 (41:29):
Sean says. Despite the long tradition in the American legal
system of distinguishing between who a person is and what
a person has done.
Speaker 20 (41:37):
Breaks down when you start making gang allegations. You start
to say that person is a bad person, they are
a gang member, they are the worst of the worst,
and so they deserve to be punished for who they are.
But that's not the way the legal system is supposed
to work in this country. People are punished not for
who they are, but for when they commit crimes, for
(41:58):
their actions. There's the standard that should be used in
immigration proceedings and by ice and in any removal case.
Has this person committed a crime? Not is this person
a gang member?
Speaker 19 (42:13):
Sean says people often get mislabeled as gang members when
law enforcement makes quick, snap judgments.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
There might be a.
Speaker 20 (42:20):
Call for service from someone in an apartment saying there's
several gang bangers hanging out in the alley outside my apartment,
and so the police will come to investigate, and they
won't know if the person who called has any idea
who these people really are, or just what they look
like to them, or whatever stereotypes they might have, And
so officers come out and they make their own judgments
(42:41):
on the spot, and in many departments they're asked to
fill out these index cards that are called field investigation
cards or field interview cards, where they label somebody as
a gang member or not, collect information, bring that back
to the station where it's then entered into a database.
Speaker 19 (43:02):
Sometimes people don't even know that they've been added to
these types of databases. Sean says this information can be
shared with several agencies across local, state, and federal levels,
like immigration and customs enforcement, and it can be used
against immigrants. He says, this most recent case involving the
Venezuelan men is extremely egregious.
Speaker 20 (43:24):
I am terrified and I am unsure whether or not
there is any point of being a lawyer in America
anymore for the rule of law to be a practical,
real thing, a thing that we can count on. There
are certain floors below which government is not able to go,
(43:47):
and that protects everybody because once there's no floor and
the government is able to do what it decides to
do without accountability to the Constitution as a federal law
at the international agreements.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
When that happens, the system breaks down.
Speaker 20 (44:11):
There's no reason to expect that the floor won't be
pulled out from underneath other people.
Speaker 19 (44:28):
As days go by, there's still no word from that YO.
Last month, Osvaldo filed and missing Persons report with the
United Nations.
Speaker 15 (44:37):
Basically the UN and the Working Group expressed it's firm
hope that the competent authorities would undertake necessary investigations and
search activities to clarify the fate and whereabouts of every
one of our clients.
Speaker 19 (44:55):
Osvaldo also has another concern that that Yo is sent
to Venezuela.
Speaker 15 (45:01):
I would just say that he came here escaping some
persecution and threats violence against him. So his family wants
him there to be honest because they rather have him close,
have him his own country. But I am concerned.
Speaker 19 (45:25):
This last month has felt like a rollercoaster of emotions
for Paula. She said she feels desperate, suffocated, is Sierra
Mari like she wants to die, scream.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
A president.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Now Alessa.
Speaker 19 (45:50):
She wants to go to to try and speak with
President Naibukele, but she doesn't have the resources and even
if she did, she might not gain which. On April fourteenth,
Bugele met with President Trump in the White House. He
was asked if he would return kilmar Abrego Garcia to
(46:12):
the US.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Both of us suggested that I smuggle terrorist in today
United States?
Speaker 17 (46:17):
Right?
Speaker 9 (46:19):
How can I smuggle?
Speaker 20 (46:20):
How can I return him today uns just like I
smuggle him into the United States or whether I do.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Of course, I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
The question is preposterous.
Speaker 19 (46:29):
The situation is so unprecedented that Oswaldo also feels overwhelmed.
Speaker 15 (46:35):
There's a feeling of hopelessness that's very tough to explain.
I would never expected this to happen in one of
my clients. To be honest, I am grateful for the
attention that he's been getting because it shows how dangerous
(46:57):
some of the processes can be. H It's been tough.
It's been something completely near to me.
Speaker 19 (47:08):
Paula knows her son can't hear her, but she still
has a message for him.
Speaker 16 (47:14):
Diamo Guerro, say if where they see jos wissom A.
Speaker 19 (47:33):
She says she loves him and that she knows he'll
get out of this. She asks him to please be
strong and to uplift the other men too, and to
not let anyone bring him down. Paula also has a
message to anyone out there who is listening to her
family's story to appeal for.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Palas.
Speaker 19 (48:00):
She wants people to speak out, call the representatives, call
for an actual investigation into the deportees because she believes
a lot of them are innocent. We reached out to
the Department of Homeland Security with several questions about that
Io's case, but we didn't hear back. That Rio remains
(48:21):
in En Salvador without any contact from the outside world.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
This episode was produced by Renaldo Lanos Junior. It was
edited by Andreoees Cruzslo and Fernando Chamari. It was fact
checked by Roxanna Guire, and it was mixed by Stephanie
Lebau and Lea shaw Damer. The rest of the Latino
USA team includes Julia Caruso, Belisia Bominez, Jessica Ellis, Vittoria Strada,
(49:05):
Dominique in Estrosa, Stephanie Lebau, Luis Luna, Marta Martinez, JJ Carubin,
Dasha Sandobal Ur Saudi and Nancy Truquiro. NILLEI Ramidis, Marlon Bishop,
Maria Garcia and myself are co executive producers and I'm
your host, Maria Najosa. Join us on our next episode
and remember always monte Va yes aastalla proxima JAU.
Speaker 8 (49:32):
Latino USA is made possible in part by the John
D and Catherine T.
Speaker 6 (49:36):
MacArthur Foundation, the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the
front lines of social change worldwide
Speaker 8 (49:43):
And the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation for more than
fifty years, advancing ideas and supporting institutions to promote a
better world at Hewlett dot org.
It's a Wednesday in mid March, and twenty nine year
old k Abrigo Garcia is driving home. He just picked
up his five year old son at grandma's house. Kilmar
notices some sort of law enforcement vehicle trying to pull
him over. Kilmar is not far from home, so he
pulls into an Ikea parking lot. He rolls down the
(00:23):
window of his car and thinks that this is just
going to be a regular traffic stop. He calls his wife,
Jennifer Vasquez Sura, and she tells him to put her
on speaker. Jennifer can now hear the officer tell Kilmar
to turn off the car and step outside of his vehicle.
Kilmar says his son is in the backseat and that
(00:46):
he has special needs. Then Kilmar's phone goes silent. A
few minutes later, Jennifer gets a phone call from someone
who says they're with the Department of Homeland Security. You
need to come get your son. When she arrives, she
sees her husband sitting on the curb in handcuffs. Their
(01:07):
son is crying hysterically, and the officials on the scene
tell her that Gilmar's immigration status has changed and that
they're going to take him away. The couple is sure
this is a mistake and that whatever is going on
will be resolved soon. Jennifer never could have imagined what
(01:27):
would come next.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
And she'd told me Lindsey that the only reason she
was able to confirm that he indeed had been imprisoned
at this notorious mega prison is because the Salvadoran government
posted a photo of her husband and she was able
to identify him.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
The Trump administration initially admitted they made a mistake, that
they sent Kilmar to El Salvador's Mega prison because of
an administrative error.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
If the Supreme Court said bring somebody back out with you,
that I respect.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
The Supreme Court has ordered them to correct this error.
But now Trump is defying the Supreme Court, saying Kilmar
will stay in Salvador and hurling our country into a
constitutional crisis. From Vuduro media and PRX, It's Latino Usa.
(02:20):
I'm Maria jo Josa. Today we're looking at what's at
stake in the deportations to El Salvador. Later, the story
of a Venezuelan man who was also sent to El
Salvador's prison simply because of his tattoos. And why do
process rights for all Americans are in fact affected by
(02:42):
cases like these. Let's get back to Kim Abrego Garcias's story.
Now you've seen the coverage of it everywhere.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
An administrative error. That's how ICE is explaining why a
Maryland man with protective legal status was sent to a
notorious prison in El Salvador. Kilmar Abrego Garcia's attorneys are
now asking the government of El Salvador to return him.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
The Supreme Court blocking the deportation of some Venezuelan migrants
accused by the Trump administration of being gang members under
the Alien Enemies Act, a century's old law that provides
little to no due process.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Guiedemud has been locked away in El Salvador for more
than a month now. He has never been charged with
a crime in the United States, but the Trump administration
has still accused him of being a gang member.
Speaker 6 (03:35):
This man is a very violent person, and they want
this man to be brought back into our country where
he can be free.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
The Trump administration is using a restraining order once filed
by Guiedemard's wife to prove he should be deported, but
his wife said that she and guiedmad have worked past
arguments that happened years ago.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
The President doubled down today, alleging mister Garcia is a
criminal and setting up the question what happens if the
Trump administration constantly ignores the courts.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Gilmer's wife, who is a US citizen, has continued to
speak out on his behalf to try to get him
back home.
Speaker 8 (04:16):
He is a father, a son, a brother, and a
proud member of GASSA who has dedicated hi himself to
make our families American dream reality, and we will never
give up on you Kilmar.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Democratic members of Congress have said Gilmar, like all people
in the United States, has a constitutional right to defend
himself against accusations. This issue is more than about Kilmore.
It's about due process. We all should be terrified. And
on the Republican side, there's also been pushbacking.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
A guy from mel Salvador.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Like at a constituent meeting with Iowa Senator Chuck Grass recently,
what are you going to do about these people who
have been sentenced to life's imprisonment in a foreign country.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
With no due process?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Why won't you do your job?
Speaker 9 (05:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And this is how New York Times opinion writer Ezra
Clente sees it.
Speaker 10 (05:17):
This is not about their guilt. It is about his power.
This is how dictatorships work. Trump has always been clear
about who he is and the kind of power he wants.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So we're going to start our show by looking at
what this case means for all of us when it
comes to due process. For that, I'm going to be
in conversation with Laura Muckergee. She's a lawyer. She's also
the director of the Columbia University Law School Immigrant Writes Clinic.
Laura Muckergee, Welcome to Latino, USA.
Speaker 9 (05:55):
Thank you so much for having me so Laura.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
This term constitutional crisis has been kind of swirling above
the United States of America for a while now. A
lot of people in mainstream media saying we are inching
closer to a constitutional crisis, but you actually say we
are at that moment.
Speaker 9 (06:17):
We are in a moment of constitutional crisis. The executive
branch is pushing the bounds of executive power well beyond
what is set up in the checks and balances system
of our US Constitution. The President and his administration have
been in flat out defiance of multiple federal court orders,
(06:39):
including in mister Kilmara Brigo Garcia's case flat out defiance
of a US Supreme Court order. Our nation has rarely
seen moments like this, and we are in a moment
of constitutional crisis right now. But the constitutional crisis didn't
just develop over the past month. We've been in a
(07:00):
moment of constitutional crisis since January twentieth.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
That's a good one. Birthright, that's a big one.
Speaker 9 (07:09):
The President signed an executive order purporting to end birthright
citizenship for large numbers of people who would be born
in the United States. This shows a president who is
in willful disregard of the clear language of the US Constitution,
and that is the moment when the constitutional crisis began.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So at this point where there is this clear defiance,
not once, but multiple times, what happens next.
Speaker 9 (07:40):
That's the big question. We are seeing that there is
increasing public concern about what the president is doing. We're
seeing this through mass protests and rallies in the street.
We are seeing this through many district court opinions for
district court opinions that are trying to rein in and
(08:03):
check the executive branch. At the same time, we're also
seeing Congress try to step in. In recent days, Senator
Van Holland from Maryland went down to El Salvador.
Speaker 11 (08:15):
I called Jennifer to tell her that I had met
with Kilmore, and I told her what he said to me,
which was first and foremost, that he missed he and
his family.
Speaker 9 (08:30):
That is an example of Congress trying to check the
abuses of the executive branch. But in terms of your
big question, Maria, what will happen next to our constitutional democracy?
It is unclear.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I have to say, Laura, there are many days, too
many when I wake up and I say, how is
it possible that the one thing that I have been
reporting on right for decades, kind of saying immigrants, those
of us not or in this country we are canaries
in the mind, the racism, the prejudice against us. It
(09:05):
is I'm raising the red flag. But how have we
gotten to where we are now in terms of immigration
policies and frankly the role of the Supreme Court in
getting us to this point?
Speaker 9 (09:18):
Maria? That's a question I also ask myself on almost
a daily basis, how have we gotten to this point?
How has it gotten so bad? How is it possible
that our nation's immigration policy is now driven by cruelty,
white nationalism, xenophobia, and racism. How are we at a
(09:38):
point where the President has now repeatedly openly said that
the next group of people he's going to deport are
those who are homegrown, meaning US citizens born on US soil,
who he wants to remove from the United States, and
flagrant violation of multiple provisions of the US Constitution and
(09:59):
long standing US Supreme Court precedent. I think part of
the challenge is that we have lost a majority of
the Supreme Court for years to come. There are decisions
from the Supreme Court, including the Muslim ban decision from
(10:22):
the first Trump administration that has laid a foundation for
emboldening the second Trump administration into thinking that they can
do basically what they wish with regard to immigration policy.
And the Trump administration this time around has had four
years to prepare their agenda, and unlike the first time around,
(10:47):
this time they came in prepared and they have carried
out so many changes in three months time startling. It's overwhelming,
and I think very few people expected it to be
this bad, this fast.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
When we come back, I pick up my conversation with
Attorney Laura Mukherjee later We're going to talk about what
everyday people can do at a moment like this. Stay
with us, Yes, Hey, we're back. When we left off,
(11:39):
we heard about Guilmar Abrego Garciez case. He's a man
who the administration initially admitted was in fact wrongfully sent
to El Salvador. The US Supreme Court has ruled that
the administration must right it's wrong. But the ruling seems
to be ignored. So let's return now to my conversation
(12:01):
with a. Laura Mukerjee. She's a lawyer and director of
the Columbia University Law School Immigrant Rights Clinic. We're going
to discuss what Kilmar's case means for everyone in the
United States. So what the Supreme Court said is essentially
on April tenth, that the Trump administration must facilitate Kilmar's return.
(12:23):
That hasn't happened. Where are we at in terms of
this particular case.
Speaker 9 (12:27):
Mister Kilmara Brigo Garcia's case is an example of the
Supreme Court giving the executive branch some room in terms
of its choices about what to do. The District Court
in mister Kilmara Brigo Garcia's case required the executive branch
to facilitate and effectuate his return to the US. The
(12:49):
District court's opinion gave the executive branch no wiggle room
in terms of bringing him back to the US. The
Supreme Court, on the other hand, and made the district
courts ruling a bit more lacks a bit more room
for there to be an argument that the executive branch
(13:13):
could quote unquote facilitate his return, but that it was
not required to bring him back.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So let's just take it to the next level, right, So,
is there anything that the Supreme Court can do to
make the federal government comply with an order? What are
other ways that we can be sure that the administration
follows the law as handed down by the Supreme Court.
Speaker 9 (13:41):
Mister Guilmara Brigo Garcia's case is challenging. He is no
longer on US soil. He's in El Salvador, in this
prison with horrendous conditions. It is potentially difficult for federal
courts to demand that he be brought back. And I
(14:02):
think the Supreme Court is increasingly realizing that we are
in a moment of constitutional crisis, and that is why
over the weekend, it seems like the Supreme Court didn't
give the executive branch the benefit of the doubt when
they heard from the ACLU that dozens and dozens of
(14:23):
Venezuela and men were being prepared to be put on
a deportation flight to El Salvador. That is why the
US Supreme Court in that case moved much faster and
issued a short order just before one am on Saturday.
This is extremely unusual for the US Supreme Court to
move so fast to issue a summary order stopping deportations,
(14:48):
and the Supreme Court when it issued that order just
before one am on Saturday, they didn't even allow sufficient
time for two dissenting justices, Justice Thomas and Justice Alito
to file and publish their descents at that time. Their
dissent came later in the day. This is an example
(15:11):
of the Supreme Court, I think, recognizing the constitutional crisis
we're in and realizing that the Court's legitimacy, the legitimacy
of the third branch of government depends on how they
respond to accesses and abuses by the executive branch. But
the courts alone will not save us in this moment.
(15:32):
We need Congress to step in in the way that
Senator Van Holland has tried to and we need the
American people to be vocal in trying to constrain the
executive branch, to be out in the street, peacefully protesting.
Speaker 12 (15:48):
Demonstrations against President Donald Trump are happening in Washington, DC
and cities across the nation today too.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Rallies in downtown LA.
Speaker 12 (15:57):
Dozens of people rallied in front of the New York
Public Library. Demonstrators say they feel deportations are happening without
due process.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Can I ask you specifically though, about that question of
as dollar is where that would say people power right,
people taking to the streets. What is the power legally
in terms of when you're in a constitutional crisis of
people taking to the streets.
Speaker 9 (16:22):
Court decisions don't happen in a vacuum. Court decisions are
responsive to social movements, movements of racial justice, immigrants rights,
and other movements of the moment. It is unclear whether
the Supreme Court would have issued its decisions Saturday just
(16:42):
before one am if there had not already been massive
protests in the streets across the United States and in
cities around the world, and if members of Congress were
not also trying to constrain the executive branch. This is
a particular moment in time where the American people are
(17:04):
critical for determining the future for our country.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
And now I actually want to turn towards somebody who
is not an American citizen but is playing a central
role in all of this, and that is Salvadoran President
Naibu Kele.
Speaker 13 (17:17):
We just saw some of this over office exchange with
during Trump and the President El Salvador. That president was asked,
are you going to send Albrigo Versiam back?
Speaker 4 (17:29):
And he said he doesn't have the authority the power
to send kill mar Bringo Garcia back to the United States.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
What do you make of this taunting? And does the
United States legally have the ability to do anything regarding this?
Speaker 9 (17:44):
The taunting of the federal courts, of the American public,
of concerned immigrants, immigrant communities, immigrants rights advocates is a show,
and it is appalling to see how these two presidents
seem to be disregarding completely, willfully disregarding the rule of flaw.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
One of the things that I've been hearing a Laura
on the ground as I've been talking to Latinos and
non Latinos, is a response essentially that says, well, our
country has been invaded from the southern border. It's out
of control. The people who have been taken are they
would say illegal, a term I don't use. They are undocumented.
(18:36):
They must have done some to deserve this. What's your
response when you hear that kind of argument?
Speaker 9 (18:43):
That type of argument seems to be somewhat of a
self protective mechanism, So it can happen to them, it
can't happen to me. But if we look at Venezuela
nationals who've been taken to El Salvador, overwhelmingly they do
not have criminal convictions, certainly not that are serious. Some
(19:05):
are simply tattoo artists. Many had pending asylum applications. Many
were complying with all of the requirements set forth by
ICE in terms of showing up for their check ins
and going to immigration corps, and they had hearings scheduled
in their cases. Similarly, the targeting of lawful permanent residents
(19:27):
is nearly unheard of, so in terms of the foreign
policy deportability ground. Before March of twenty twenty five, it
was invoked by the Secretary of State in only fifteen
known cases in US history, and never before March twenty
twenty five was invoked against lawful permanent residents period, and
(19:52):
certainly not against lawful permanent residents who had no criminal
records had been living in the United States peacefully for years.
We are living in a dangerous moment, an unprecedented moment,
where rights that I took absolutely for granted four months
(20:13):
ago are being questioned and challenged to a degree that
I never imagined possible, and it's resulting in people making
changes to their daily lives. People are reaching out to
me on a daily basis, asking should I post on
social media? Should I go to protests, Should I travel abroad?
Should I travel domestically? People are really scared right now,
(20:38):
and it's not people who have been accused of or
been convicted of crimes. It's ordinary people, law abiding people
who are being swept up in this moment that we're
in of ramped up immigration enforcement.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
The administration continues relentlessly to say these things about Quirimara
Abrego Garcia in terms of wanting to paint him as
somebody with a criminal record. There has been no legal
proof of any of the things that they've been saying,
which leads me to the question that, well, any of
(21:22):
us then could be in the same situation right where
you are taken and essentially denied due process, and that
we don't have cases presented against us that are factual?
Am I pushing the envelope too far? How alarmed do
American citizens and those of US who are not born
(21:43):
in the country need to be about this administration taking
us and not having to present any evidence against us.
Speaker 9 (21:52):
I am alarmed. I know many others are alarmed to.
It is a moment that raises deep alarms. And Maria,
it's not just you who is worrying about this. Justice
Sonia Soto Mayor wrote in her dissenting opinion that if
(22:12):
the executive Branch is to be taken at its word
in terms of the reach of its executive authority, than
all people, including US citizens born on US soil, could
be subject to summary deportations from the United States with
no due process of law.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So you're raising the red flag. It's a huge red flag.
You're waving it, or you're just standing there with the
red flag, but it could start to get waved more
intensely any day now.
Speaker 14 (22:44):
I've been waving the red flag for months now. Yes,
I am standing there, I'm not just waving a red flag.
I'm waving a red banner. I'm getting as many people
as I can to wave it with me.
Speaker 9 (22:56):
I think it's really important for a mess Americans at
this moment to realize that we are at a tipping point. Either,
depending on the choices we collectively make at this point,
we will save our constitutional democracy or our nation will
(23:16):
fall to authoritarianism.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Laura, thank you so much for speaking with me on
Let the Know USA.
Speaker 9 (23:28):
Thank you, Maria.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That was a Laura Muckerjee. She's a lawyer and director
of the Columbia University Law School Immigrant Rights Clinic. Now,
dear listener, we're going to bring you the story of
another man who has removed from the country without due process.
His story has never been told. In fact, his family
(23:52):
spoke exclusively to Leatino USA. His case shows how the
US government is using tattoos to miss label and discriminate
against immigrants. It was about a year ago when Thatio
left his home country of Venezuela. He trekked through the
(24:13):
dangerous Dadian Gap, and then he crossed through several Central
American countries along the way. That Io tried to stay
in touch with his mom Paula, who was in Venezuela
also with his older brother Ramido. He had emigrated more
than two years before and was already in the United States.
(24:37):
Over his month's long journey, Thatio sent them messages, short
but vital ones to show that he was okay, like
this one where he's talking about the money that he
needs in order to keep moving North.
Speaker 15 (24:53):
Samana.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
That is in his early twenties. He has light brown skin,
his hair is neatly cut. Baula, his mom, says that
he has an ability to make anyone.
Speaker 16 (25:07):
Laugh, lace and stay una grascia Ilia.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
We are calling them Dario, Baula and Ramiro. In fact,
these aren't their real names. They asked us to protect
their identity, and so we're honoring that request. Now. Dadio
wanted to enter the United States legally, so he applied
for entry through the CBP one app, which allowed migrants
(25:38):
to start their asylum process. In August twenty twenty four,
he was legally allowed into the country, crossing through the
California border.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Nias Inn.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Baula says that her son underwent and passed health screenings. Yes,
Thatio also went through something called the Credible Fear screening
This is what immigration officials use in order to determine
if a migrant faces real danger if they are sent
(26:13):
back to their home country, and in fact, back home
in Venezuela, Thatio had spoken out against the Maduro government,
he was retaliated against, and so he passed that screening.
But then.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
As high US.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Immigration officials took that Eo to a detention facility in Louisiana.
Ramidro says he and his brother were raised to follow
the rule of law, so Dadio's detention was a surprise
to the family. He had been allowed in legally. Familia Ramiro,
(26:58):
the brother, sprung into action. He hired their current immigration attorney,
Osbaldo Caro Gruz. Cao Gruz says one of the reasons
that Eo was detained was because he presented an expired
passport at the border.
Speaker 15 (27:13):
Obviously, if you're being chased by a regime, you cannot
renew your passport. You know, it's not that easy.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So that EO's American attorney filed an application for asylum,
also withholding of removal, and he applied for protection under
the Convention Against Torture Act. And throughout all of this,
that Io was held in that detention facility. Still in detention,
(27:42):
that Io started to hear rumblings about something that was
happening all around him.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
It bolts easy if they don't.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Apparently, his mom says that Io was hearing from immigration
officials that he was going to be deported back to Venezuela.
But then things took a sharp turn. That Eo was
transferred to the Elbaya detention facility in South Texas without notice,
and then things took an even more bizarre turn.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Ian Bomingo, it's the Miamira.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Ramiro frantically called his mom, Baula, and said it looked
like Thatio had been removed from the United States, but
that he wasn't sent back to Venezuela.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
It wasalf and we.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Baula was stunned her son didn't have a deportation order,
so she asked Ramiro to reach out to the lawyer
and find out what was going on.
Speaker 16 (28:58):
Pinto s maybe, saying no.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
It turned out that Rio and two hundred and thirty
seven other Venezuelan men were sent to secot Baola didn't
want to believe it. She couldn't believe it, but then
the news confirmed it.
Speaker 17 (29:25):
Zibeas News has obtained a list of the two hundred
and thirty eight Venezuelan men the Trump administration recently deported
to El Salvador, and the administration has said it carefully
vened each of the individuals to verify they are connected
to a notorious Venezuelan gang.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Baula got a hold of the report and went down
the list of names, one by one.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
EA to welcome me.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Her son that Rio was in fact being held in Secotoca.
Speaker 16 (30:00):
Som cagno perol man, you mean Venezuela.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Paula felt like she was losing her mind. More than
fifteen hundred miles and several countries now separated her in
Venezuela from Dario in Salvador.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Venezuela, no guma you play bar Salvador.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
She says that if her son that he had been
sent back to Venezuela, she would have even tried to
speak with the country's president there. But in Al Salvador,
what could she do. The Trump administration has said that
the Venezuelan men he deported to El Salvador are quote terrorists.
Speaker 7 (30:56):
Loved when Borg has told them immigration authorities sent his
tattoo was evidence of ties to the trendy Iragua gang.
The tattoo was a rainbow colored ribbon made up of
puzzle pieces, the symbol for autism awareness, along with the
name of Bores' younger brother who has autism.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
And his administration has used the way these men dress
and their tattoos as proof that they fit the description.
Speaker 15 (31:20):
The only reason they stopped him is because of the tattoos.
To be honest, that's why he was attained.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
That EO's story of mislabeling because of his tattoos exemplifies
a long history of discrimination at the hands of the
US government. This year here at Latino USAY, we've been
(31:49):
reporting on the government's fierce targeting of immigrants and their
fight for due process. We've looked at the relationship between
Ensa Vador's forty three year old president and the Trump administration.
Speaker 18 (32:03):
I think they're part of a global network of ideologically
aligning the parties. You know, you could tie them to
Victor Horbaugh and others on international scale.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
They share an anti.
Speaker 18 (32:15):
Globalism quote unquote discourse, deep hostility towards critical civil society
organizations and press freedom.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
We've heard from a Venezuelan man who has detained fifteen
days in Guantanamo before being deported back to his homeland.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Joined King.
Speaker 6 (32:43):
Kuan describes the fifteen days that followed as torture.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
And I recently sat down with one of the attorneys
for Macmurkhalil, a Columbia University student targeted for exercising his
right to free speech.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
I think that is absolutely the goal. The goal is
to silence dissent.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
That's why the response that we're seeing.
Speaker 15 (33:07):
Not just in the courts and not just in the media,
but on the streets as well, is that much more important.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
It is crucial. This is not just about mister Khalil.
It's not just about folks who believes in.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
The rights of Palestinians and the right to live.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
It is about everyone's freedom of speech, everyone's two process rights.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Coming up on Latino USA, producer Renaldo Leanos Junior continues
telling us that EO's story of imprisonment that was sparked
by his tattoos, and also how for decades immigrant men
have been mislabeled as gang members just because of their tattoos.
Stay with Us notes when we left off, we had
(34:10):
met Dario's family. Dario is a Venezuelan man with no
known criminal record. Still, he's been sent to Al Salvador's
mega prison named SECOT. His family and his attorney have
been unable to reach him since mid March, and they
continue fighting on his behalf. Latino USA producer Renaldo Lanos
(34:33):
Junior is going to pick up our exclusive reporting from here.
Speaker 19 (34:39):
It's been over a month since Baula San Dario was
locked away in Olsavador's infamous mega prison, Mamianda. She has
not been able to speak with him. Actually, no one.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Has me in loosenti me no no.
Speaker 19 (35:08):
Balla says that EO's removal to Osalvador is an injustice
and that just because her son has a tattoo, it
doesn't mean that he's a criminal. Osvaldo, the family's attorney
in Florida, shared a photo with me. It shows some
of that EO's tattoos that he believes sparked immigration officials
to flag him.
Speaker 15 (35:28):
It seems that they saw three tattoos which grabbed the
CBB officer's attention, a crown, a clock in a rows,
and those tattoos were the basis for his attention and
eventually his removal to and Salar.
Speaker 19 (35:46):
According to immigration documents, I reviewed in that EO's case,
the government concluded that that Rio had quote gang related tattoos.
The tattoos are well known tattoos that rend Ragua gang
members tend to have. The ji denied being a part
of trend de Ragua or any other gang, and close quote.
In February, about a month before that Yeo was sent
(36:08):
to Es Salvador, the Trump administration designated the Venezuelan gangren
de Ragua as a foreign terrorist organization, but that EO's
immigration documents state that he has no criminal history. His
attorney says he also did his due diligence and found
no criminal history in Venezuela either. It's also important to
(36:29):
note that experts who study the rend Agua say that
there is no specific tattoo or tattoos that trend de
Ragua members use across the board to show that they
are affiliated with the gang. CBS's sixty Minutes also reported
recently that.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
We've obtained a list of their identities and found that
an overwhelming majority have no apparent criminal convictions or even
criminal charges.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
They are now prisoners.
Speaker 19 (36:58):
Sending these men to Es Salvador has raised a lot
of ethical and legal questions. And that Io's attorney knows
that the stakes are high.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Who asked you as.
Speaker 15 (37:08):
Diction over over these people is in the US. This
is something so new and so horrible. I'm extremely worried
that something might happen, man, and I'm also worried that
you might never get out.
Speaker 19 (37:28):
Paula is constantly checking in with for any updates on
her Sonka you be looking. She prais to God every
single day that Dario is freed soon. If not, she says,
(37:50):
she's gonna go crazy as the days and week go by.
I make it a point to try and stay in
touch with Baola, that Heo's mom, but she says speaking
to me is getting harder. Her son is locked away
in a Salvador in prison known for detaining people without
(38:13):
a trial and depriving them of any contact with the
outside world. She says she can barely handle it the
(38:40):
So how is it that so many Venezuelans are being
labeled as gang members. One way immigration officials are determining
if someone belongs to the RAGA is by using a
point system, a kind of scorecard with six categories that
include things like hand gestures and tattoos.
Speaker 6 (38:58):
According to the guide, the score of age or higher
can mean people are quote validated as members of TDA
and could be deported after consulting with a Department of
Homeland Security supervisor or legal advisor.
Speaker 19 (39:11):
This checklist came as a surprise to Osvaldo that he
owns attorney.
Speaker 15 (39:16):
Seeing a list with several items which automatically describes you
as someone who who's part of a friend THATAWUA, it
was just unbelievable, to be honest.
Speaker 19 (39:30):
This specific point system was created by the current Trump administration,
but throughout the years, the Department of Homeland Security and
other state and local agencies have used tattoos and other
items to help determine if someone documented or not is
a gang member. So when Sean Garcia Lais first heard
(39:51):
about dozens of alleged trender AGUA members being sent to
El Salvador, he suspected something might be off.
Speaker 20 (39:58):
As somebody who has worked extensively on law enforcement gang
affiliation allegations, I knew that at least half of those
people were probably not gang involved at all, or if
they ever had been in the past, weren't gang involved now.
Speaker 19 (40:16):
Sean is the executive director of the Peace and Justice
Center in California. He's also a civil rights attorney.
Speaker 20 (40:23):
I've reviewed gang databases in different cities across America, and
I have never come across any set of gang allegations
involving dozens, much less hundreds of people in which the
error rate was not at least fifty percent, and sometimes
much higher than that.
Speaker 19 (40:44):
Sean has also worked on reform to stop mislabeling people
as gang members. In twenty sixteen, he co authored a
report named Mislabeled Allegations of Gang Membership and their Immigration Consequences.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
It was a collaboration with.
Speaker 19 (40:59):
The Universe City of California or Vine School of Law
to see how being wrongly accused of being a gang
member impacts people with immigration court cases, like their eligibility
for dhaka and other forms of protection. But the mislabelling
of gang members doesn't only happen with immigrants.
Speaker 20 (41:18):
African Americans in particular have been long subject to gang allegations,
and those who work with those communities are often targeted.
Speaker 19 (41:29):
Sean says. Despite the long tradition in the American legal
system of distinguishing between who a person is and what
a person has done.
Speaker 20 (41:37):
Breaks down when you start making gang allegations. You start
to say that person is a bad person, they are
a gang member, they are the worst of the worst,
and so they deserve to be punished for who they are.
But that's not the way the legal system is supposed
to work in this country. People are punished not for
who they are, but for when they commit crimes, for
(41:58):
their actions. There's the standard that should be used in
immigration proceedings and by ice and in any removal case.
Has this person committed a crime? Not is this person
a gang member?
Speaker 19 (42:13):
Sean says people often get mislabeled as gang members when
law enforcement makes quick, snap judgments.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
There might be a.
Speaker 20 (42:20):
Call for service from someone in an apartment saying there's
several gang bangers hanging out in the alley outside my apartment,
and so the police will come to investigate, and they
won't know if the person who called has any idea
who these people really are, or just what they look
like to them, or whatever stereotypes they might have, And
so officers come out and they make their own judgments
(42:41):
on the spot, and in many departments they're asked to
fill out these index cards that are called field investigation
cards or field interview cards, where they label somebody as
a gang member or not, collect information, bring that back
to the station where it's then entered into a database.
Speaker 19 (43:02):
Sometimes people don't even know that they've been added to
these types of databases. Sean says this information can be
shared with several agencies across local, state, and federal levels,
like immigration and customs enforcement, and it can be used
against immigrants. He says, this most recent case involving the
Venezuelan men is extremely egregious.
Speaker 20 (43:24):
I am terrified and I am unsure whether or not
there is any point of being a lawyer in America
anymore for the rule of law to be a practical,
real thing, a thing that we can count on. There
are certain floors below which government is not able to go,
(43:47):
and that protects everybody because once there's no floor and
the government is able to do what it decides to
do without accountability to the Constitution as a federal law
at the international agreements.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
When that happens, the system breaks down.
Speaker 20 (44:11):
There's no reason to expect that the floor won't be
pulled out from underneath other people.
Speaker 19 (44:28):
As days go by, there's still no word from that YO.
Last month, Osvaldo filed and missing Persons report with the
United Nations.
Speaker 15 (44:37):
Basically the UN and the Working Group expressed it's firm
hope that the competent authorities would undertake necessary investigations and
search activities to clarify the fate and whereabouts of every
one of our clients.
Speaker 19 (44:55):
Osvaldo also has another concern that that Yo is sent
to Venezuela.
Speaker 15 (45:01):
I would just say that he came here escaping some
persecution and threats violence against him. So his family wants
him there to be honest because they rather have him close,
have him his own country. But I am concerned.
Speaker 19 (45:25):
This last month has felt like a rollercoaster of emotions
for Paula. She said she feels desperate, suffocated, is Sierra
Mari like she wants to die, scream.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
A president.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Now Alessa.
Speaker 19 (45:50):
She wants to go to to try and speak with
President Naibukele, but she doesn't have the resources and even
if she did, she might not gain which. On April fourteenth,
Bugele met with President Trump in the White House. He
was asked if he would return kilmar Abrego Garcia to
(46:12):
the US.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Both of us suggested that I smuggle terrorist in today
United States?
Speaker 17 (46:17):
Right?
Speaker 9 (46:19):
How can I smuggle?
Speaker 20 (46:20):
How can I return him today uns just like I
smuggle him into the United States or whether I do.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Of course, I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
The question is preposterous.
Speaker 19 (46:29):
The situation is so unprecedented that Oswaldo also feels overwhelmed.
Speaker 15 (46:35):
There's a feeling of hopelessness that's very tough to explain.
I would never expected this to happen in one of
my clients. To be honest, I am grateful for the
attention that he's been getting because it shows how dangerous
(46:57):
some of the processes can be. H It's been tough.
It's been something completely near to me.
Speaker 19 (47:08):
Paula knows her son can't hear her, but she still
has a message for him.
Speaker 16 (47:14):
Diamo Guerro, say if where they see jos wissom A.
Speaker 19 (47:33):
She says she loves him and that she knows he'll
get out of this. She asks him to please be
strong and to uplift the other men too, and to
not let anyone bring him down. Paula also has a
message to anyone out there who is listening to her
family's story to appeal for.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Palas.
Speaker 19 (48:00):
She wants people to speak out, call the representatives, call
for an actual investigation into the deportees because she believes
a lot of them are innocent. We reached out to
the Department of Homeland Security with several questions about that
Io's case, but we didn't hear back. That Rio remains
(48:21):
in En Salvador without any contact from the outside world.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
This episode was produced by Renaldo Lanos Junior. It was
edited by Andreoees Cruzslo and Fernando Chamari. It was fact
checked by Roxanna Guire, and it was mixed by Stephanie
Lebau and Lea shaw Damer. The rest of the Latino
USA team includes Julia Caruso, Belisia Bominez, Jessica Ellis, Vittoria Strada,
(49:05):
Dominique in Estrosa, Stephanie Lebau, Luis Luna, Marta Martinez, JJ Carubin,
Dasha Sandobal Ur Saudi and Nancy Truquiro. NILLEI Ramidis, Marlon Bishop,
Maria Garcia and myself are co executive producers and I'm
your host, Maria Najosa. Join us on our next episode
and remember always monte Va yes aastalla proxima JAU.
Speaker 8 (49:32):
Latino USA is made possible in part by the John
D and Catherine T.
Speaker 6 (49:36):
MacArthur Foundation, the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the
front lines of social change worldwide
Speaker 8 (49:43):
And the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation for more than
fifty years, advancing ideas and supporting institutions to promote a
better world at Hewlett dot org.
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