A Conversation With... Bims & Jo - Building & Actioning A DEI Strategy

In today's podcast we talk to the incredible Jo and Bims from The Institution of Mechanical Engineers - one of our favourite clients to work with!  In this episode we discuss what it’s like not just building a DEI strategy, what it is like to action it and what we've all learnt along the way. There's also some great advice they give to other organisations thinking of doing the same thing and some really interesting reflection moments, so grab a cuppa and settle in!

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Welcome to our newest episode
of our Zing Learning podcast.
Today we have the absolute pleasure of speaking to one of
our favorite clients, the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, and we get
to speak to Joan BIMS, who are in the exec team
there and who we have been working very closely with for
the last 18 months to really help to bring to life

(00:28):
the diversity and inclusion strategy with the team, not just the
employees, but also the members.
We are having a really great chat today about what
it's like to really embed a diversity and inclusion strategy
and how actually making different changes really genuinely makes a
difference to people's lives, not just in work, but also

(00:49):
in the outside world as well.
If you're looking to implement a diversity and
inclusion strategy in your organization, then grab a
copper, have a listen and see what you
can take away from today's podcast.
Hello, Jeremy VIMS.

(01:10):
Welcome to the podcast.
Lovely to have you here.
Hi Zoe, nice to be here.
Hi Zoe, nice to be here.
I'm giggling just because before we started recording,
we were giggling and we were trying to
pull ourselves together, but that's part of the
joy of working with amazing people.
So just to get our listeners to understand the

(01:30):
work that we're doing around diversity and inclusion, I
want you to tell me a little bit about
your experience so far over the last few years
to do with diversity and inclusion.
So whoever wants to go first, please just
give us a bit of an insight with
regards to your experience with DNI.
Well, I think it's a good question and it helps
you sort of reflect over the last few years of

(01:51):
where we come from and we've achieved today.
We started talking around, Ed and I,
quite a number of years ago.
And in reflection, there was a lot of discussion.
I think at the time we were just trying
to get just like probably the rest of society,
getting our heads around the topic, understanding it a
little bit more and unpacking EDI.

(02:11):
So we began the discussion, the debate, and I think
looking back over the last, particularly two to three years,
we've started to put that into action and make a
difference in terms of not only for the institution, in
terms of staff and our members, but also try to
sort of raise our voice in the outside world a
little bit more in terms of our wider societal aims.

(02:34):
I think generally, Edith become a more of a talked about
topic in society, which has helped us along the way.
But certainly I think if we had to sort
of summarize, it's gone from being a theoretical subject
into one of action and experience for us. Excellent.
Thanks.
Ben, what would you add to that from your experience?
Yes, from a personal perspective, actually, I think

(02:58):
it's been a really interesting and always a
word that's used quite frequently, journey.
But I've gone through from a personal perspective, and
I'm sure Joe can identify with this a range
of emotions, being a person of color, being female,
and being in the HR field as well.
There are certain things, expectations of you, and you're

(03:19):
still a human being at the end, and you're
still impacted by the injustices that you see and
the injustices that you have to tolerate.
But alluding to what Joe said, having the opportunity
to be part of a different path that everyone's
choosing to take together has been humbling.
It's been really enabling and it's also been a

(03:42):
big field of learning for me, if I'm honest,
at times, I was very cynical about things.
I've been in the whole corporate sphere
where it's a tick boxing exercise and
the two day course and everything.
And actually to see an organization that's prepared to
do something different and really live it out has
been a really good thing for me.

(04:03):
I really agree with Beams on that experience part.
I think what it's taught me, and hopefully
others, is about listening, asking questions and listening.
And you learn a huge amount about the other person or
the group of people, which then determines how you behave, how
you interact, how you may want to manage your team, if

(04:24):
that's what you do, or be part of a wider group.
And that's probably one of the most important things
I've learned, as opposed to the theory around Ed,
just that experience that Bin was mentioned. Yeah. Wow.
And there are a couple of things that you said there
with regards to it not being a box ticking exercise.
Yeah.
And that's one of my favorite

(04:47):
things about working with you.
I guess I'm as a supplier, but
I feel more like an employee.
I certainly don't feel like an outsider.
And that's, I think, a really good
testament to the culture that's already here.
But it definitely doesn't feel
like a tick box exercise.
And that was a very early conversation that we had
when we were discussing the learning element of it, which

(05:07):
is, let's do something very tangible here that's really going
to affect change, it's really going to make a difference
to the employees, to the members experience.
And you've used the word, I think there's the
human experience as well, which I think we forget
in the working world, in our careers.
We forget that ultimately we're all humans,
we're multifaceted, got lots of different things

(05:30):
going on in our lives.
It's not always about that one
project and things like that.
So, yeah, that was quite interesting.
And it's definitely something I've enjoyed with
working with you for over a year
now, almost a year and a half.
It's been that long already.
It's produced such powerful results,
literally almost from the beginning.

(05:51):
I think people woke up and thought, oh,
I can learn something from this conversation.
And I'm sure Joe's had this experience as well, where
members particularly, but also staff, even myself, and said, oh,
I was a bit cynical about this, but I know
it's my responsibility to attend as a leader.
But actually I'm finding I'm learning and
I'm having better conversations with people, with

(06:14):
grandchildren, with family members, with colleagues.
And I'm seeing, from my perspective and our position, both
Joe and I are seeing where staff are saying, well,
we don't need to accept these behaviors anymore.
And so our members are also saying
that we should all be valued.
And that's really important from the perspective
of where we're both coming from.
It really changes your perception sometimes of a

(06:39):
situation that you can't learn in a classroom.
Is there any way I can describe it? Perhaps?
I think it might sound a bit corny, but if
you think about it, it touches everything you do.
So the way you greet a person at reception or
client who comes to the building, to the way, perhaps

(07:00):
if you get a slightly sort of upset client on
an email, how you might respond to that, just taking
that breath of thinking about the other person and the
situation creates a different response.
And I think it's very difficult
to put that in the classroom.
But you can learn it through developing experiences,
through things like the learning program yeah.

(07:23):
And the conversations that you're having.
And it's interesting you bring up responding and take a
breath because that has been quite a theme, hasn't it?
Through some of our conversations, rather than reacting, we're
responding, which gives our brain a second to understand
whether it's an objective reaction, actually the impact that
we have on another person, all of those sorts

(07:43):
of things, which is all about feeling valued and
treating other humans as humans rather than as we
perceive them to be when we first meet them.
So the next question that I want
to ask is around your experience.
Before Zing came in, you developed an amazing DNI strategy,

(08:04):
some really great actions that you needed to do and
some really great kind of steps, very clear and concise
with a really wonderful person called Dr.
Mark McBride.
So you do some great strategy work there.
What have you learned from that
process of developing the strategy?
So even before the learning came
in, it's a really good question.

(08:25):
I think the strategy tries to give everyone a common
goal, a common purpose, because Ed and I can be
a very noisy place with a number of different agendas
in there, with different strengths of feeling, et cetera.
So I think the strategy was trying to get everybody
at Daema Key, whether it's members, staff, volunteers, all on

(08:46):
the same page to give us a sense of direction
and those who wanted to join that journey with us,
sort of some tangible actions to get there.
I think there's always that question in Idi and I.
We talk about it's good for business and
we all know, but there's something in there
also where there's an expectation of what's the
output, what's the outcome from this?

(09:08):
How do you measure?
And so one of the areas is around data collection.
A lot of organizations struggle with this topic
and when does data become meaningful and then
when do you take action on that data?
So I think the strategies helped
us create that common goal.
But if we wanted to still working
around with what does success look like?

(09:29):
So we have a whole range of activities
now which are supporting perhaps our KPIs.
But in terms of true success, I think that one
is still open for debate about what that looks like.
How do you measure a
really inclusive and diverse organization?
I would agree with Joe that it created
a commonplace and a common way forward.

(09:51):
However, I feel that it's only text and words
and you have to bring them to life.
And I think we could easily have gone
down that track, falling into that trap of
many organizations of producing a brilliant strategy.
And actually, you look at it five years later
and you think, what we've done with it, it
looks great to the outside world, it looks great

(10:13):
to our staff, to our members.
But what actually happens and I think for
me, actually seeing all the work that sat
alongside it, DNI training, the values work, has
actually brought the strategy to life.
And you can see elements of
those success along the way.
We're not there fully and are you ever there fully?

(10:33):
But we can definitely see
that we've reached milestones.
We can definitely see.
And it's hard because a lot of
those things are not necessarily tangible.
They're not something that's measurable all the time.
But what we've created is trust.
What we've created is an environment
where people are more respectful.
And so by default, those other things
that are so important, that data, which

(10:54):
is data collection, is based on trust.
People are they ready to give you
their data because they trust you?
What are you going to do with it?
But we're getting to that.
And so I think the strategy is
really good for keeping us focused.
It's really good for actually saying,
look where we come from.
Also it's really good because we made a public
commitment at the beginning and that makes us accountable.

(11:16):
At times when we feel we might be drifting, we
need to go back and look at that and say
what did we commit to do as an organization?
And it's not just about us and the
dealer, what's going on elsewhere in Imeki?
From that perspective, I think it's really helpful.
But I absolutely believe that with any strategy,
you've got to bring it to life.
Yeah, I can't agree more.

(11:37):
I think that's so important.
And the learning program is those
steps to bring it to life.
Because before that it
was more theoretical, theoretically.
Yeah, I think that's really important and I think
what it did do and it felt quite brave
at the time is that it actually rose our
head above the parapet on the topic.

(11:58):
So before perhaps we were a bit more
internally focused and actually by publishing something, people
then sort of knocked on our door and
said, hello, he interested in Edna, let's chat.
And so I think that was quite a
brave step, it felt like at the time.
But it's opened almost a new world to us of
an awful lot of organizations both trying to improve the

(12:22):
world if we use our own mission to improve the
world to engineering in Ed and I, but also perhaps
realized there's an awful lot of challenges and when we
were in partnership, we can actually do this better.
So we've found a common ground outside of just engineering,
which I think for us has been quite unique.

(12:45):
One of my favorite things about working with the Imeki and
so many different people that I get to meet on the
workshops that we run is around the idea that it's not
just about what we do at the Omeki, it's about how
does that translate out into social impact?
And Bins very early on a moment ago actually
said about the children and the nieces and the

(13:08):
cousins and all of that sort of stuff, where
it's not actually just helping conversations internally, it's also
in our personal lives as well.
And I think something there around the conversations that
we're having with people and the way in which
I'm hearing the shift because this is a program,
we're not just scatter gunning a few different workshops

(13:29):
out there and hoping for the best.
There's a very specific journey
that we're taking people on.
We're guiding them through.
We know at the start they're very apprehensive to
open up and talk about these things, but you
get them a couple of sessions in and already
they're sharing some really kind of personal things that
we had no idea about and it's really starting
to open up that conversation and then they're talking

(13:49):
about, well, actually I'm really interested in it and
we get this a lot from the members.
They want to do some stuff, they want to take
some of this learning back to their membership organization.
And we're like, yes, please share this.
This isn't supposed to be some secret Imky
thing that we're going to keep to ourselves.
The idea here is to use the
tagline again improve the world through engineering.

(14:10):
Let's also do that in a human aspect.
Let's make sure we're having a social impact
with the work and the conversations that we're
doing and it certainly is coming through there.
You mentioned the word accountable a second ago with
regards to having the strategy go out into the
public domain and having people kind of hold the
Imeki accountable for actually doing something with it.

(14:31):
Do you think that is the right way to go?
If other organizations are listening to this now and
thinking they want to go down the same route.
Would you do that in the same way again? Absolutely.
I mean, for me personally, I've always thought and I
think what's quite unique about our leadership is that we
do feel we are accountable, not just to our members,
but also to our staff that they look to us.

(14:54):
And it's not about give me, give me, give me.
It's more about how can we work better together
to provide a nurturing environment, a safe place for
everyone, to get the best out of everyone.
And I think that starts with accountability.
And I think even when I first started
here, one of the things was that I
said, I'm accountable, and Joe was saying it.
I remember distinctly a time when Joe

(15:14):
talked about how she was accountable.
And I think people need to hear that we're not
just saying we want to be leaders for leaders sake.
We want to say that we're prepared to stick
our head above the parapet, as Joe said.
And we know that's happened because not everyone
responds warmly or welcomes DNI things or ed.
And I suggest a lot of people are still trying

(15:37):
to get to grips with it and understand it.
There's still a great fear around it, and
that's all fueled by social media or whatever.
But I think the people that see we're
walking the walk, talking the talk, will understand
that there isn't actually anything to fear about
us being better versions of ourselves.
So that when we're at work, whether we're at
play, whether we're in our companies, that we are

(15:57):
actually able to be much more productive, much more
fruitful in the things in our interactions. I think. So.
In our recent annual report that was produced a couple of
months ago, it felt the first time that the how we
did things in the year was as important as the what.
And in the document itself, the values

(16:20):
sit front and center alongside the business
plan, the financial report, etc.
E and that's I get a
bit of goosebump, yeah, absolutely.
To put about behaviors for how what our reputation
and Brand wants to be alongside good financial resilience,

(16:40):
meeting the needs of engineers, et cetera.
It's like a piece of a jigsaw, isn't it?
All sort of begins to fit together, to create
this, as Ben said earlier, be accountable for how
we do something as much as what we do.
And I think if you think about imacy the institution
of mechanical engineers, the engineers and ethics is the most
important thing, as engineers can solve the problems of the

(17:01):
world, but it's how they do it.
Is it sustainable?
Is it ethically, the right thing to do?
And it sort of sits nicely all in that picture.
I think even international communities would want to know that
we were not and it's going to sound weird, not
look down on them, but actually say, look, we want

(17:22):
to do the right thing for you.
This is not just a paper exercise
because we want your membership, actually.
We want to recognize and value you for who you
are, wherever you are in the world that we do
have those common goals that Joe talked about.
It's really interesting.
I had a session with our second Cohort a little while

(17:43):
ago, maybe a few weeks ago, and it was around understanding
Ed and I, and we go through the kind of we
take them at the start of the journey, as you know,
because you've been through the sessions yourself.
And interestingly, I discussed a little
bit of a business case but
reminded people that that's really important.
There's some great stats.
67% of people will consider whether or not to take a

(18:06):
role or to join a membership and things like that.
Considering how effective the DNI work is, that's huge.
That's so different to what it was a few years ago.
So we'll go through all of those stats and I
actually had someone on the call say, yeah, the stats
are good, but we shouldn't have to convince people that
doing things right for human beings is the right way.
And absolutely we shouldn't have to do that.

(18:28):
And we've got some very different
mindsets that are coming in.
We've got some very different
perspectives and different lived experiences.
And as you said, spins very
honestly at the start there.
Sometimes people come into this with a is
this really going to make a difference?
Is this just another DNI thing? Is this just a whatever?
Is this going to kind of die in a few weeks?
Kind of thing.

(18:48):
And we've had some people that have come into the
first sessions and on the feedback forms, they've said, I
genuinely didn't think that there was any point coming.
I did because I thought I should.
But actually the conversations that we had has
made me realize that I need to learn
a lot more about this kind of thing.
So people are changing their perceptions of

(19:09):
what DNI means, I think, as well
as just actually learning in general.
And I think the way in which the Imeki
built the strategy, then built the learning alongside the
values and the behaviors, the new ones that have
kind of really encompassed what it means to be
a member or an employee within the Imac e.
This journey just feels so organic

(19:31):
and it feels so genuine.
And I think that's the feeling that people are
definitely the feeling that people put across in the
sessions that they have with me working with you
in Zinc learning, it's created, from my perspective, a
different type of learning and training.
I sort of maybe thought in the past bit more traditional
types and a number of the workshops I've worked with you

(19:54):
on and the others didn't write anything down because it was
all about an experience I was going through and what I
came away in terms of how I might want to change
my behaviors, my thought patterns, where maybe in other courses I'm
there scribbling away in a notebook because I'm writing down the
theory and it's sad.
I don't know how you translation into I don't

(20:16):
know the learning in a very different way than
I would have perhaps done it active learning.
I would agree with Joe because I'm being from my position,
I'm very used to having someone who did the and I
working in a department, etc for so almost you become a
little bit complacent and blase and to the point where if
I'm honest, even I don't necessarily know went in with the

(20:37):
mindset that I could learn anything new on some subjects and
also because I think do I know everything about racism because
I've been a victim of it.
But actually going in and listening to someone like
Joe's story or someone else's story, I'm thinking, hey,
what about my behavior to someone else?
It doesn't matter that they don't fit the

(21:00):
traditional framework of what someone that's being discriminated
against, but they are being discriminated against.
And it's my biases that
are causing that discrimination.
And that really challenged me even to the point
where I think when I'm getting on the tube
or the bus or something, have I judged someone?
And it's been back a memory of things
where it's so easy for us to fall
into these biases without even thinking.

(21:23):
But actually we can be advocates of change
because we're stopping and doing that cause that
Joe said you can say someone well, hey,
let's not judge that person like that.
Where is that person coming from?
How do we give them that sense of
belonging so there's less pulling, tugging and pulling.
And I think that's the really powerful
thing that comes out of the sessions.

(21:44):
And I think from day one we all set out to
make a partnership and we were very clear on that.
We wanted a partnership with Zing Learning.
And I think out of everybody, I think Zing did stand
out to be that it would be there for the longer
term and we would fall together on some things and we'd
think, oh, that didn't work so well, but we'd go back.

(22:04):
You wouldn't just carry on regardless because
you've got a preset program, you know.
And I think that's the really powerful thing about
learning together is that you do learn together.
Each child is different and a parent
would have to adapt to each child.
And I think we've done that with you.
And we will continue to do it as we
go through the different cohorts because we talked about

(22:25):
making the adjustments for each cohort because some are
in their phase of their life or some might
be in a different phase of their life.
But the important thing is referring back to
what Joe said earlier, is that we all
have the same destination and the same goals.
I don't think it's a single goal.
I think it's more than that because the values is one
aspect, how we do our work, how we work together.

(22:47):
There's so many different aspects, but it's
been like this rich tapestry throughout.
And I think that's a really powerful
thing about learning and the evaluation of
learning that's really coming out.
I think if you think about looking back, that sort
of first three, four months at the beginning when we
started to work with Zoe and we put together the

(23:10):
early adopters group and we spent that time thinking how
actually is going to work and looking back, in hindsight,
that was probably one of the most valuable bits.
It's actually talking to members and staff and working
with us all to actually how we're going to
make sure we achieve what we want.
And I think rather than go straight into let's
run six courses, and I think, looking back now,

(23:33):
that really resonates with what you just said.
I think the power of consultation, if you want to
use that word, or the discussion really brings about belonging,
because it would be easy for you to use those
to come to the executive or to HR and say,
here, I've designed a course for you. Would that do?
Does that fit your strategy?
Does that tick off that?

(23:53):
And we could go, yes, and you can deliver it
in two days and everyone would be happy because in
a year's time, the whole organization has been through it.
But actually it's about the legacy
and passing on the bat.
And we've always said that we have to respect that
wonderful, rich heritage that we have, but we shouldn't be
a hostage to it, because there are things in there
that, when you look back, would not have allowed a

(24:14):
woman to be an engineer, would not have allowed a
young child to dream of being an engineer.
But that's because of the time. At that time.
But what we have now is someone being able to
inspire, to go to the schools and say, why not?
Why not you?
Why can't you be a mathematician?
Why can't you be an engineer?
I feel that people are more comfortable now saying

(24:35):
that, and I do believe that's going to be
a big payoff in times to come.
We will be forming partnerships with others and
we're saying, we can form a partnership with
you because we are like minded.
And if you want to bring engineers into the
world, we are ready to work with you and
to make sure that through membership, through staff, whatever,
that we're working together to improve this world.

(24:58):
Because it's not just about the physical, it's
about the social aspects of it as well. Boom.
If we want to be as an institution here in
50 or 100 years time, we need to be relevant.
And that's the perfect way to be relevant.
Yeah, absolutely.
To the humans out there.
To the other humans, absolutely. Yeah.
That's it.

(25:18):
You mentioned the word partnership there.
I know we're all completely agreed there's probably
going to be lots of head nods.
We were very clear about that right from the start.
And I think it's really interesting because I've definitely had offers
of work and clients have come to me and said, can
you pull this together or can you do this?

(25:38):
And I've actually turned them down, which when
you're a relatively small business, relatively new business,
that you don't really have that luxury.
But I knew and this comes back
to your values and behaviors as well.
I knew very early on that what I
was trying to achieve with Zing Learning.
And I also knew that I needed to be very careful
with my values and behaviors and the impact I was having.

(26:00):
So the partnership was really important because it helped me
to know you as clients, aircraft there, my employers in
some way, the way that my team, it feels in
some way, actually were in it for the long haul.
You weren't looking for a quick fix, you weren't
looking for some silver bullet that was going to

(26:21):
fix everything and make the cultural flowers and amazing.
You knew that it was going to be hard work.
You knew that you were going to have resistance.
You knew that you were going to have some
people that were so excited about this and wanted
to get involved really early on, but you knew
it was going to be a journey.
So I think that that partnership is something
and that's a big learning for me.

(26:42):
For the other organizations I work with, please don't think
that this one activity or this program is going to
do everything that you need it to do.
It needs to be much bigger than that.
It needs to be a partnership.
But also you mentioned the exec there and in
my experience in working with lots of exec on

(27:02):
lots of different DNI projects is that the four
of you are so engaged with this.
You're also so different as well, which is really true.
So different, yeah.
Which is great because then you've got diversity of
thought and the executive that really shows through in
the way that we're working on this project, in

(27:23):
the way that you support each other.
But the conversations are so genuine and I've had some
really great comments from other people that have attended sessions
after one of you have been on there and you've
been very vulnerable and shared something about your own experience
and they have just felt so much more connected to
the exec because of that.
And we all know that that's a

(27:44):
really big challenge in most organizations.
So I think that for me, that's been one of
the best ways that we've been able to see the
change that we've been able to see is because you're
all not just on board, but you're leading this.
It's not just words, it's actions.
And people are feeling that I would agree with that.

(28:05):
But I think we can't not give credit to
our trustees as well and just even our new
president and our former one who really said like
Joe said, our new president put it up there
in his presidential speech it's never been done before.
To put it right at the forefront that we're a
values driven organization and I think that will mean a
lot to people whether it's new committee members or new

(28:28):
volunteer members or new staff that we are.
It's not just a glossy page.
It is really saying well again they're saying we're accountable
for this, you can hold me to account for this.
But I do think linking everything together there are
so many people that have gained from the experience.
I don't know anyone that's walked away and

(28:49):
says I'm the worst person for it.
That harmed me in some way.
Attending it's actually made us more determined and we know
that there's still a lot of work to be done.
I don't want to be complacent.
I also do want to say that maybe clarify something that
there is nothing wrong with having a two day course or

(29:11):
a two day seminar and I think it's about context and
it's also about your culture and where you're coming from because
I think there are some places that may only need that
because it can be very thought provoking.
I've been on something a half an hour sort
of podcast thing and it just completely blew my
mind what I learnt on that thing.
But I think what we were saying is that we

(29:33):
knew that there had to be a lot of embedding.
We knew we were realistic about where we were coming from
and that's from both the staff and the members side.
And for us the longer term fits us.
It not only fits us because of who we are as
an organization, it's because of where we want to be.
But in different places it may be something different.

(29:54):
I think the important thing is
to start is to start off.
Take a step of courage, take a step of whatever it is.
Some people being there with 2ft jumping
straight in, others will dip a toe.
It takes time and a lot of it is the unknown.
Where is this taking me?
And I think the powerful thing is that we
are many of our members and we're grateful for

(30:16):
many of our members that have also stood up
and been very vulnerable in situations where they may
not have been necessarily been comfortable.
And I think that's testament to the grounds that you've
laid that they feel comfortable and also having a values
and behaviors champion royal at that time really gave I
think it really gave members some confidence that this can

(30:39):
be a safe place to talk about experiences.
I think if I'm being really honest, there was
one session in particular I didn't realize I was
going to struggle with before it happened.
And even now I haven't quite understood why.
It was very thought provoking, very emotional for me,
and I probably didn't quite engage as I would

(31:01):
have in that session, as perhaps others.
But I do know now when the right time for
me, I'll come back and have a look at that.
And so at some point there will be
some topics I might want to revisit.
And we've got the workbooks, we've got the videos
there's actually, more importantly, what I didn't realize was
going to happen is there's trusted spaces so I
can go and talk to other people within the

(31:21):
organization, members and staff when or if I feel
comfortable at some point doing that.
And I didn't realize that was going to be a
legacy of this for me personally anyway, and hopefully for
others around that where previously, I think I'd had it
in a very small group of individuals, or perhaps in
the Diversity and Inclusion Committee led by ISL Pilot, where

(31:44):
you had that sort of safe space as well.
So I think that's interesting.
The dialogue can continue.
I think it's one of the legacies in
a different way in that trusted space.
Yeah, I think we've always been about the conversation ever
since the George Floyd murder, when some staff came to
us and said, can we start to have conversations?
Because it can't go on as it's been before.

(32:06):
And I think that was the start
of how powerful a conversation can be.
But you have to create a safe space for a conversation.
And I think that's what you've created for us is
that safe space by us doing these workshops, us going
back and having the conversations, thinking how we and we
do constantly reinforcing that learning, I think it has created

(32:29):
that place that the conversations continue.
And as long as you're having conversations, you have
the opportunity to grow and to learn from them.
So I hope that they do continue.
Yeah, no, it definitely feels like it's really starting to embed
now, which is obviously it's very enjoyable from my point of
view, because you get to see the fruits of your labor,

(32:50):
which doesn't happen very often with them, with the work that
I do, because I might be with a client for a
month or two, it might even be a year, but with
us, because it's such a long partnership, I can see the
way which things are changing.
It's just so rewarding from my part, and I know
you both agree with that from your part, you said

(33:11):
that as well, just before with regards to the George
Floyd murder, and that sparked the conversations.
I know there were just kind of focus groups around.
Let's talk about yeah, that's correct.
And that was obviously pre
us learning, pre our program.
So that comment you said much earlier, which is
sometimes just do something, do something rather than nothing.

(33:32):
Don't wait for everything to be perfect.
Don't wait for a very strategic whatever,
just do something, listen to your people.
And I know you were working on
DNI even before that as well.
That wasn't the catalyst for you to take DNI seriously.
I'm doing that in.
But it was another thing that you

(33:54):
were like, do you know what?
OK, we can't continue to ignore the elephant in the
room, which is that actually maybe we're not as comfortable
as we would like to be talking about these things
and let's make them a little less taboo.
Absolutely experiencing in some way
some of these different aspects.
And I think if we go back to the

(34:15):
original strategy established and then coming alongside it on
your values and all the work there, then there
are incidences in the public, the tragedies, the challenges,
et cetera, that maybe spark debate.
But I suppose what I'm trying to say is that
we're not doing this for political reasons, that actually we're

(34:38):
doing this because it's at the core of our organization
and we're on a long journey and at times it
can look like or potentially spin off into a political
sphere, but actually it's not our cause at all.
Our cause is actually listening to our members and
our staff and trying to support them through difficult
periods because of our values, because of where we

(34:59):
want to be with Ed and I.
And I think that's an important lesson I've sort
of learned across and at times I get confused
between the two and you're just talking, it centers
you again about why you're doing something.
And I think that's an important point to make.
I think that's a really good point you make,
because so often when there is animosity towards DNI,

(35:19):
people think there's always a political motive.
And quite frankly, some of our members think
that, maybe some of our staff do too,
and they've been quite vocal about that.
And for me, there's a kind of sadness attached to
that because actually all we want to be done is
treated like humans and have that be valued.
And most people at the core actually think,

(35:39):
well, there's nothing wrong with that either.
So I think you're right, Joe, to
say it's not about the political reasons.
And it's been well proved, you said it
yourself, Zoe, that the diversity of thought is
so important, but it's more than diversity of
thought, it's diversity of who's in the room.
Because I remember a certain politician using that word

(36:00):
when challenged by a report about how many ethnic
minorities were in his team and he was just
fluttering away and using the word diversity.
I thought, what does that mean?
Does that mean you take into
account the tea lady, the cleaner?
What does that mean?
But actually it's who's in the room.
And we've all seen it, we've seen fantastic
DNI statements on companies and you go and
look at their management and leadership.

(36:21):
There's no diversity in those teams.
So where is this diversity that you're talking about?
And yet you can say you have diversity
of thought because you've got people at different
levels in the organization, but actually at the
top you're still the same demographic.
So for me personally, it is about what are you really?

(36:41):
What is the picture that people see when they
step into the building or when it's online?
What do they see at meetings?
Who do they see at meetings?
Do they see diversity around the table in
order to have that diversity of thought?
And I think it's still a challenge.
We've still got some way to go,
but we can't be naive about this. It does take time.

(37:05):
You have to do it the right way.
There are things to respect and that has to be done.
But the most important thing is we are seeing
aspects of change that have all been very positive,
I believe, for the institution, and that can only
reflect for our membership and reflect for our staff.
And I think you said earlier
about what does success look like?

(37:27):
Success for staff has been the fact that we've been
able to move up in our investors and people accreditation.
That huge amount of that has been down to diversity
and diversity and inclusion and about our values work.
There was no doubt three, four years
ago, we couldn't even answer a question
on it because we didn't have anything.
We just literally couldn't put any questions
around that because we didn't have it.

(37:48):
So I do think there is success where
we can celebrate where we come, but we
mustn't be complacent about where we could be.
I mean, the great thing about imec is
that we innovate with very little sometimes, and
I think that's the best way.
When we were children, you started from something
very small before you created whatever contraction you
were doing, and that's the power in.

(38:10):
What do you have available?
What can you make out of it?
What can someone else add to it?
And I think the more we allow others to add that,
the better we're going to be and the stronger we're going
to be and the more relevant we're going to be.
Relevant is a good word, joe, you've mentioned a couple
of times the word reflection and what that's done for

(38:32):
you, whether it's that you know you're going to reflect
in a little bit of time and you've had time
for some of the content to make more sense in
your mind, but also the idea of actually reflecting on
how far you've come as an organization.
Yeah, of course we can't get complacent,
there's lots more work to do.
But actually, if you think about the strategy, prestrategy

(38:54):
the strategy, the learning where we're going next.
Actually, sometimes I think organizations think they're
miles behind and they need to be
this, that and the other.
But you've reflected and you've gone, well, we've actually
come a really, really long way, but you're also
doing that personally in your own reflection, in your
your own work, in the way in which you're

(39:14):
challenging your own preconceptions and things like that in
general and having those conversations.
So I think that's a really good message
for other organizations that might be listening to
this to take away, you have to reflect.
This is a big part of the learning program, isn't it?
We are reflecting on our own

(39:35):
personal impact on other people.
We are reflecting on the way in which
we've experienced things that perhaps we didn't necessarily
realize were that bad at the time because
we just didn't have the understanding and the
knowledge to comprehend that at that point.
I think part of that pause in reflecting
is also then ensuring there's that legacy.

(39:56):
And by legacy, I mean it can be really practical, is
that from an institution we change volunteers every year, no staff
come and go over a period of time, so we don't
want it to be just in the moment, I think.
So part of that reflection is making sure
that our communications are materials or behaviors.

(40:17):
Everything reflects on you sort of learning so that when
we on board a new person, they understand the new
IMA key in a sense, or that a new member
will come along and they understand from all our literature
and our communications, oh, I see where I'm a key
fits in the ed and I picture inclusivity.
So the reflection bit as well as therefore how

(40:40):
are we going to improve and keep going?
Like BIM says, we're not finished yet, but it's also
to sort of help bring on board the new people
in Imaxe to create that sense of belonging and the
wider things about how we do things as well as
what yeah, I think as we go further down, it's
really important that we hit the regions that we look

(41:00):
at what's going on at Grassroots because there's some amazing
stuff out there and they probably have no idea what
we're doing because we seem so far away, but actually
we're closer than we think in a lot of ways.
And I think you're right, we've
got to make those connections.
And I think the more we do this, the more there's a
meeting at some point where we think, oh, we are on the
same journey together and I want to do more, I want to

(41:21):
step up, I'd like to be a volunteer, I'd like to see
where I can contribute and I think that's really important.
I think one of our future phrases working
with you, Zoe, in learning is around providing
a much wider platform of tools and communications
that anyone can access, including the wider membership.

(41:42):
That's not inclusion, isn't it?
Yeah, and all the different types of communication, from a
podcast to a one pager to a booklet to all
the different types to make sure that we resonate with
a wider audience because everyone learns in different ways.
So I think part of actually going back to my
point about legacy, but also what we're going to do

(42:02):
next is actually how do we communicate in the right
ways with the diversity of our audience.
Yeah, and also, not forgetting, we're a global institution,
so some people to physically reach as well.
So making sure that they're included.
I love that you're talking a lot about I've heard
the word belonging quite a few times, which makes my

(42:24):
heart sing because that's a step further than inclusion.
We've obviously talked a lot about inclusion, but also
it's sounding like, and I know this just from
having conversations with you in general, that you understand
the concept that diversity, like bringing more diversity into
the world of engineering, into the Imacy in general,

(42:44):
that's not going to fix things.
What that does need to definitely happen, but it needs
to happen at the same time as that inclusion work
because what you don't want to do is bring in
lots more different people, different backgrounds, different life experiences, and
plunk them in an organization, in a membership space, whatever
it might be, and they just don't feel comfortable at

(43:07):
all like they feel.
So that concept that you're wanting this legacy to
continue, you want to make sure these conversations are
being had outside of the workshops in general.
Anyway, that's what creates inclusion and belonging.
And that means that we can bring diversity in and put
that at the forefront because we know we're bringing people into

(43:28):
a space where they can be themselves and it's only getting
better week on week on week kind of thing.
And it's interesting because whenever I speak to
a new client, they always say, should I
focus on diversity or inclusion first?
Which one should I focus on first?
And I always tell them to, you know
what, just do it at the same time.
Because you need the diversity to bring

(43:50):
that different perspective and to bring those
additional skills and talents and completely different
ways of working, perhaps.
But also you need to make sure that it's nice for
them to come into nobody wants to go in to their
careers who are working well to membership duties, whatever it is,
and feel like they can't speak out, feel like they can't

(44:10):
give ideas, feel like they can't be themselves and they have
to hide versions of themselves to be accepted.
It's exhausting.
We want people to be able to come
and reach their full potential and bring all
of themselves into what they do.
So I love that we're talking about
belonging and it's just really nice.
If I think about the language we were using

(44:30):
18 months ago and it was very inclusive, but
now knowing that we've been through all of these
different sessions together, the language you're using is the
language that I would encourage.
So, yeah, I'm doing some reflecting during
this party on the theme of reflection.
Then I'd love to know what you're most

(44:53):
proud of so far on this journey.
So I'll throw that to whoever
can think of an answer first.
Gosh, that's a good question.
We haven't sat down and reflected like this for some time,
hoppy so it's quite a nice opportunity to do it.
But yeah, we might need to
pause for thought for this one.
I think I mentioned it before that when we go into

(45:15):
the beginning of the session, you ask us how much we
think we know about a certain topic and hands up.
Sometimes I thought, well, I know I think I'm about an
eight or ten or something and other times and you know,
honestly, honestly, at times I felt a bit intimidated by everyone
in the room would think because I'm an HR director, I
should know everything and I don't, even if it's a subject

(45:40):
that should be close to me.
So I've almost felt like I'm not really
sure what I want to put down.
And sometimes I have no more than
I thought, but other times I haven't.
And I think what I'm most proud about now is that
actually I don't really care at the beginning of the session
if I only know about three, I'm going to put three.
So my confidence has grown.
I don't have to worry that anyone's going to judge

(46:02):
me because I don't know about a certain subject.
Because what it says to me is that I now
am comfortable saying that I need to learn more.
But other times I thought I knew something, but when
I came out of the session, I actually realized when
I went in I was actually lower than the thing.
But I think that for me, going back to about
improving ourselves, being honest with ourselves, reflection, I think I'm

(46:24):
actually proud that I can do that and I hope
that even if I go on something else externally, I
have that same courage to do that.
Because you do kind of get stuck into a
kind of things like if you think about privilege
or not or whatever, but it's not true.
And a lot of that learning comes from other

(46:44):
people's talking about their experiences, which I think you
give a lot of space for in the workshops
because you can't knock someone's learned experience.
No matter what a textbook says,
it is not learned experience.
And if someone says, this is how I feel, this
is how I am, or this is what I want
to be, then we have to respect that person.

(47:05):
And that also brings a belonging element in.
For me it might sound small, but
for me it's a big thing.
No, it definitely doesn't sound small.
And actually, remember, obviously I'm not going to
test you on it right now, but all
of those key behaviors of an inclusive leader,
humility is one of the most important aspects.

(47:26):
So for us to kind of think,
do you know what I feel safe.
I don't feel like being judged for not being
the expert in whatever this topic is, but for
us to kind of put our hands up and
go, you know what, let's just figure it out.
It doesn't matter if I get
it wrong, those sorts of things.
And that's a huge shift.
And I don't know if you remember we were actually

(47:49):
talking about it in the Dean I committee of day,
but we did very early on before we started because
we wanted to get a level of where people felt
they were at with the learning.
We asked them to scale themselves against lots of
different things like humility and stuff like that.
We gave them statements to choose and
they could choose one out of three.
We know that people have scaled themselves relatively high on

(48:09):
some of those, and when they do it again at
the end of their year of kind of going through
the program, we know that some of them are actually
going to score themselves even lower.
Now, that level of humility and that is progress.
It needs narrative around it when you
put the data out to people.
But that's progress because people are like, oh, okay, I

(48:29):
didn't know as much as I thought I had, so
I'm going to go and do some learning.
I'm going to get curious about this particular thing.
Yeah, I would agree.
I mean, for me personally, I think without it sounding
sappy, I think it's really inspired my learning of DNI
issues and things that I didn't know, even though I

(48:50):
knew cleaning you someone, being a woman, being someone of
color or something coming maybe from the background, that would
necessarily give me that advantage in life.
But I've come out of each one wanting to
know more and not so much about textbooks because
my learning comes from people conversations, experiences, and everyone's

(49:10):
different, but that's where I learn a lot from.
There's something that Joe said that's going to stay with me
all the time because she might not think it's a big
deal, but for me it was a big deal because it
really made me challenge myself and my thinking.
And I think that's the important thing is that
you're inspired when you come out of each session.

(49:32):
And most people I know feel I want to do better.
I've learned and I want to do it.
But they're also saying I haven't learned it all just because
I've been on a workshop now, but I know I can
do better and I think that's really been enriching.
Thank you, Joe.
You've had lots of time to think that you've

(49:52):
also been listening because I've been watching you nod
and agree with what yeah, it all really resonates.
It's an interesting one to narrow it
down into one area for me.
But there's something around when I was saying before about
when the hair stand up on your moment, I think

(50:14):
for me there's maybe been a couple of those and
I think one is I'm really proud of us as
an organization and to be, if I'm honest, myself as
an individual on occasion, where I've actually spoken up on
a topic that perhaps we wouldn't have in the past.
So that's bravery of the organization and at times I've

(50:36):
been a little bit braver than I have been in
the past to speak up about the topic and stand
by our values, which actually resonate very well with myself
and it's quite emotional when I think about it.
It sort of means a lot.
And I think that's happened not just with myself
and us corporately, but I've seen it in others

(50:57):
and that's just amazing when you see others feeling,
I suppose, the psychological security to actually have that
conversation and I couldn't be prouder of that for
the organization and ourselves.
And I think going back to your point, Bins, you
can see that not only in your workspace, but you
can see that in your own personal life.

(51:18):
It's so valuable in both elements, isn't it?
Which I perhaps had appreciated
before this learning program.
Our joy comes from seeing our staff, how they
participate in things, whether it's the team briefing, whether
it's sharing personal stories and this happy space that
they create for themselves, seeing them interact with each

(51:38):
other even just after traumatic two years, just seeing
the staff in the room, talking to each other,
talking outside of their own teams.
You can see these amazing pictures of real
joy and you thought, gosh, I wouldn't have
thought we'd have seen those two years ago.
And everyone's literally saying, what can

(51:59):
I learn about this new person?
How can I make them feel like they belong to immediately
we saw the other day, I think I put a shout
out to a new member and just put it on teams.
We didn't do things that way before.
You wake up to the corporate induction and had
a nice little formal session, but we've all said,
well, how can we make other people belong?
And other people were high five in it or whatever

(52:21):
they were doing, but I think it's really great.
And I do remember someone who started it.
I don't think he could believe himself for the
first week, he just kept on going around saying,
I've never been in an organization like this, I've
never been in, because he was just meeting people
who are going hi, welcome on board, et cetera.
But it wasn't just doing it, they really were
saying welcome and already they're making the mark.

(52:44):
So there is getting to this people that say it's
all sappy and all the rest of it, it isn't.
It makes sense to make someone have a
sense of belonging and have a sense of
value and having a sense they can contribute.
And we need to make sure that going back to what
Joe said, that we have a wider pool to do it
because it doesn't need a few people to shoulder the load.

(53:05):
It needs all of us to take
that on, but have that single.
That's why you need a strategy,
that's why you need a framework.
But to have a goal, where are we heading to?
Every game has a set of rules and that's a fact.
And we do need that.
That's why we need our values.
There is a framework in which you can really
do things, but it is important to have that

(53:27):
framework and it's important that people feel that sense
of belonging when they come here.
One of the most important things now, it feels
like it's taking what we've learned in that framework
and embedding it in our long term strategy.
So for people will see on our website, etc.
So we're now really building that longer term
aspiration over the next 510, 20 years.

(53:49):
And it's such an important part of this now
and our legacy is making sure it's embedded in
that long term strategy for the future.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I was interviewing the leadership group from
another organization for some di audit work
that I'm doing for someone else.
And that was one of the questions, how
do you embed deny into your strategy?

(54:14):
And actually they were very transparent and
they said, you know what, we don't.
We don't at all.
But because there's such a lack of awareness
and I think the DNI strategy was great
to really start to raise that.
But this learning and the conversations and understanding it
from a human level has definitely made a big
difference with regards to the way that it's really

(54:35):
being brought into that day to day and that
strategy and things like that.
I'm really sad to say that we're almost at the
time, but before we do leave, because you know, I
love talking to you both anyway, I just want to
ask if you've got any advice that you would give
to any other organizations, whether they're membership organizations or not,

(54:56):
that would help them to think about how to start
to move forward with their DNI efforts.
I think for me, Zoe, looking back over the last
few years, I probably go back to a point I
made earlier about if you're on the start of that
journey or a little way in it, you spend a

(55:16):
bit of time in the planning phase, the learning phase,
the consultation phase before you start.
So get to know how your organization,
all its stakeholders feel around Dean.
I almost take the temperature check, I
think around it before you commence.

(55:37):
Because how you do it is so important because listening
to all the conversations today, the program has worked for
so many reasons because of the way we did it.
And I think that's really important to know.
The best way of learning for your organization and
your stakeholders, I think would be and that valuable

(56:01):
time at the beginning has helped us progress.
I think perhaps maybe quicker than we might have
if we take in a different learning route.
I agree with you and I think as an organization,
you've got to have an honest appraisal of who's best
to start that, who's best to facilitate that.
So if your organization and you know it's struggling for

(56:21):
whatever reasons, you might need to bring in someone else
to start doing that consultation and that planning so that
there's trust there because we were very fortunate enough, our
staff and our members did talk to us.
But if you don't have that openness initially, you may
have to bring in someone to stimulate it before you

(56:41):
can even get to that planning stage because you don't
know where you want to be until you know where
you started from and I think that's really important.
Added to that, I think you also have to
be honest with yourself and knowing that it's not
going to be smooth all the way through.
There will be times it's very uncomfortable for

(57:03):
individuals, for staff, perhaps management, but by taking
this step and saying, I'm prepared to do
it in itself speaks volumes.
People will step back and say, what's going to happen?
Let's wait and see.
You mustn't be knocked by cynicism, you must have been knocked
by the people that said, oh, you can't do it, or

(57:25):
the people that say, oh, we tried it before, you have
to still be determined to make a difference.
So for me, I think, added to what Joe said, it's
those bits around it that are also important and to have
someone to talk to if you feel you're struggling with that.
But I think if you have to hold on it,
you have to hold on and not think it's a

(57:47):
two day one thing, even if your workshop is for
two days, you have to wait for change to happen.
But what you have to do is that embedding, you
have to think about a bit wise about what was
embedding this due, what does it mean we change?
Do we start with our newsletter?
What are we going to start
as visible evidence of embedding?

(58:07):
So I think that all has to
come into that planning stage as well.
Just add at the end there, I'm
thinking who might listen to this podcast?
And there are some organizations with large resources, some
without and I think I would say there are
ways to start the discussion without large resources.
Having that sort of creating safe spaces, having the

(58:29):
conversations, doesn't need to cost money, it's the approach
to it which we've talked about, I think.
So my advice would be don't worry so much
about resource, just have a think about how you
start that conversation within your organization yeah.
And use the tools available now we're online
so much, we can get so much more

(58:54):
inclusive than we used to be before.
So that's already a little point that they can score
off if they're holding a Zoom meeting with some people
that are willing to participate in the conversation.
Perhaps they wouldn't have done that before.
It might be in the HR team, might be
someone coming to talk to the Exec team.
Just put it out there.
We'd like to have a conversation
and that's inclusion from the start.

(59:16):
So you can tick off a little thing and
say, I've started, and we should use everything available
to us because it's the opportunities there.
I would say to everybody, don't be afraid of it.
I agree with what Joe said.
Whether you're small, medium, big organization, there's
an opportunity for everyone to make it's
not one size fits all.

(59:37):
And I think that's really important to say, I think
to live by that point and our values, then.
If anyone listen to podcast, wants any advice,
we'll welcome to speak to them, definitely.
And I imagine there's going to be employees and members of
the Imacy that are going to listen to this as well.
So it's been brilliant and I'm so glad that we've still

(59:59):
got a way to go because it's just been amazing.
Having the members and the employees working together on
this has really made a difference to the way
that people are perceiving things as well.
So it's been really lovely to watch that and I'm so glad
I'm only a third of the way through with cohort Two.
We're not quite finished with cohort One yet,

(01:00:20):
and I've still got cohort three to go.
So from my point of view, I get a lot of joy from this.
I give a lot I give a lot of energy, but
I get so much back and just seeing the way in
which people are able to bring more of themselves into their
careers and things like that is so rewarding.
And it's lovely to watch, but yeah.

(01:00:40):
Okay, that's it.
Thank you so much, both of you, for the conversation.
I know that this is going to be really
helpful to lots of different types of organizations, and
also members and employees that are going to listen
to this are probably going to enjoy hearing your
reflections on it and how you think it's really
supported the Imacy in general. But yeah.
Thank you very much. Thank you.

(01:01:02):
So it's been a pleasure.
Love talking to you.
Looking forward to further conversations. Thanks.
Bye bye.
Sadly, that's all we've got time for today.
I'm sure you would have loved to have

(01:01:22):
got even more advice from Joan Bins and
the Institution of Mechanical Engineers there, but we've
got some really great takeaways.
There's definitely some advice, I think that other
employers can really take on board to really
think about how to get their diversity and
inclusion strategy off the ground.
Obviously, learning is a great way to do it, but there's
also some other tips that we were just given there.

(01:01:43):
So please take them away, use them with your
employees and see if you can really make a
difference, not just internally within your organization, but also
within the communities that you do serve.
It's really, really powerful, the work that can be
done if we really put our minds to it.