May 11, 2022 • 50 mins
In this episode we got talking to the fantastic Grace Mosuro about what it's like to be a woman in a senior position, how we have to change the way we behave to be taken seriously and what it's like to have to 'dim' your light to get ahead in the professional world.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Welcome to our newest podcast.
Today we are talking to the incredible Grace, who
is somebody that I've known for quite some time.
We've worked together on various projects, and now
she is in the middle of setting up
an amazing organization and lots of other really
fantastic things that she's working on as well.
(00:27):
We're going to have a really good conversation today all
about what it's like to be a woman in the
workplace, to really have to hide parts of your identity,
to maybe even adapt the way that you behave, especially
when you're in the senior roles.
We're also going to have a really good conversation about
how intersectionality can really play a piece in the way
(00:48):
that we build our careers and the way that we
come across in the work that we do.
So without further Ado, grab a cover,
settle in and enjoy the podcast.
Hi Grace.
I feel very proud to say that we are not
(01:08):
just people that get to work with each other and
do different business together, but we're actually friends now.
So I would love to have a really good conversation with
you today about what it's like to be a woman in
the working world, what it's like to be a black woman
in the working world, how we might need to adapt the
way we are and adapt our kind of core traits if
(01:32):
you like to be able to fit in, but also what
we've learned from that and how we've evolved.
Before we get started, though, I would just love for our
listeners to get to know you just a little bit more
because you've had a really great career so far.
So I'd love to hear a little bit
about your experience and then where you're at
now because you're doing some really cool things.
(01:54):
So over to you. No pressure.
Then I've had a really broad career
and I'm really pleased about it.
A lot of people are kind of like,
oh my gosh, where is your career taken?
You I started my career in recruitment and
then decided that actually I like helping people
rather than just making a business money.
So I decided to go into
(02:15):
welfare to work, which was essentially
me supporting disadvantaged individuals into work.
So it ticked all the boxes in
terms of what I was good at.
I quickly realized that I love talking to people
and I'm very good at that and building relationships.
I moved into stakeholder engagement for welfare
to work organizations and then started to
actually coach leaders within organizations to develop
(02:37):
in their own careers.
And my career over the last year has just
taken a dramatic turn as a result of kind
of personal health concerns last year and just feeling
that need to find purpose in my being.
So I've moved into working for myself.
So I'm now a consultant.
I support organizations to change and to
(02:59):
become better than they are, I hope.
I'm also an entrepreneur, so I own a jewelry brand
as well as currently working on a new opportunity that
I'm hoping will be a really purposeful social enterprise.
We connected quite early on
because we had similar values.
I think that's what happens at work.
And we were talking really recently about the
(03:21):
idea that women in careers, especially when they
get to very senior levels, feel the need
to change parts of themselves, maybe to make
ourselves less threatening in some people's eyes.
I want to talk about that a little bit because
we kind of started getting into the conversation in a
bit of detail when we were working together the other
(03:41):
day, and I was like, no, hold that thought.
Let's record this because this is so interesting.
So I'd love to get your thoughts on that in general.
I think when we got together, we always do this anyway.
We start basically trying to take on the
world and change it right then and there.
But I think one of the key things that came
out of the conversation was just around how we become
(04:03):
who we are based on our experiences and some of
the challenges that women, irrespective of race, but particularly black
women as well, have within the workplace and how that
can sometimes lead to us acting in a way that's
not true to who we are as a result of
feeling the pressures of needing to conform or needing to
(04:23):
be non threatening or needing to be liked.
Essentially, I think is the biggest driver.
Everyone just wants to be liked.
And I think sometimes as career women that are driven
and really want to achieve things, you sometimes feel like,
actually, I can't be my full, authentic self because some
people won't like me as a result of that because
(04:45):
they think she's trying to get above her station.
And I think as women, we struggle with that a lot.
So that was definitely what kickstarted
the idea for today's discussion.
Yeah, I love that. That's so true.
We can't help but try and put the world together.
I'm starting to feel like that might be
me as well, because it's definitely a common
(05:05):
theme amongst lots of my working relationships.
You said there a little bit about how
we might have to be less threatening.
I'd just be really interested to hear why
you think it is that people want to
make women feel like we're being threatening when
we're being assertive or when we're perhaps very
(05:27):
confident in the idea that we're talking about.
My view is that the best way
to disarm someone is to attack them.
And I feel like that's the reason that people do
that, if I'm honest, because how do I disarm you
and stop you from doing what you're doing?
So I'm going to tell you that you are or you're
(05:50):
doing something that you're not, and I know it's going to
upset you and he's going to throw you off track.
And I think that's why people do it.
If I'm honest, it's the easiest way
to distract someone from their goal.
And I think it's playing dirty.
If I'm honest, because you then feel the need to
defend yourself as opposed to just genuinely doing what you're
there to do, which is to be great.
(06:12):
I'm nodding because there are a couple of words that
have just come into my head, as you've been saying,
that one of them is gaslighting, which I don't think
well, most of the time people don't do intentionally, of
course, but I think there's something around that.
And also there's that aspect that women are emotional.
I'm doing air quotes for the listeners.
Women are emotional.
(06:33):
So if we respond to that accusation of us
being aggressive or threatening or whatever, it might be
because we're being confident and assertive and we know
our skills and our abilities, we can't possibly respond.
We're kind of stuck in between
because if we respond, we're emotional.
We're playing up to the stereotype of a woman.
(06:53):
If we don't, then we're not really standing
up for ourselves and we're allowing that.
So it's kind of a rock in a hard place. Exactly.
It's interesting as well, because I think that's
one of the major questions is do gaslighters
know their gas lighting or when people Gaslight,
do they know they're doing it?
And I feel like we need to create this
(07:14):
term in the same way we've got unconscious buyers.
Maybe we need to talk about unconscious gas
lighting and how you make yourself aware of
when you're doing it and try not to.
I think gas lighting is disgusting, but I think as
women, we experience it in every field, whether that be
in relationships, whether that be in our careers.
And like you said, because of those stereotypes that
(07:36):
are placed against us, it's just so disarming.
It literally is just wrong.
Yeah, I think that's fair.
I think that there is something around those gender norms
and the stereotypes that society puts on each of us.
I was having a really interesting conversation on
another podcast with this amazing company called Taylor
(07:59):
Education, who work on Sex Reeducation and all
of those sorts of discussions.
And we were talking about how dangerous gender
norms can be in every type of relationship.
And I think the idea then the question
around, does the Gaslighter know that they're gaslighting
(08:21):
is probably the same question as does the
person being Gaslight know that they're being Gaslight?
And I think in a lot of situations, especially at
work, because we're trying to show that we're capable, we're
trying to reach our potential, we're trying to work really
hard and show that we're committed, do all of these
amazing things whilst also not being to this and to
(08:42):
that and too emotional and this.
But also we need to make sure that
we're nurturing people because that's the female stereotype,
especially when you're a senior leader.
So it's just such an imbalance.
And it's so difficult to figure out.
What am I supposed to be as a leader?
What is society telling me what I'm being
and actually what do I want to be?
(09:03):
But how can I utilize that to be able to move forward?
It's exhausting.
I can describe it as yeah, definitely.
I can think of so many situations where I have
been working and we were talking about this a little
bit around the idea of women being oversexualized at work.
And I've definitely, obviously I won't mention the organizational
(09:25):
names, but some of the previous organizations I've worked
for as an employee, I've heard the most derogatory
comments about myself that senior leaders have said and
it's got back to me because I straighten my
hair or I wear lipstick.
It's just to me I'm like, I just
want to feel like I look good.
It's not any reflection on my work and actually that's
(09:48):
not a place for you to have that conversation.
So there's just some real traits
that sneak into the career space.
So for people perhaps that aren't aware of this or
they don't think that this happens, it's very real.
What are your thoughts then on the idea
that women can be oversexualized in the workplace?
(10:08):
Unfortunately it happens every day and
it happens all the time.
I remember a few years back when I started
to climb the career ladder and I'd been put
on a leadership development program by my organization and
I was allocated an executive coach as part of
that and I absolutely loved him. Such a great guy.
(10:28):
And we ended up talking about the HRD and just
how in awe of her I was and how I
really saw her as someone that I looked up to
and that I found her quite intimidating.
And my executive coach basically said
she finds you really intimidating.
Now at the time I was a junior manager.
This woman was a HRD.
(10:49):
She's climb like various steps to get to where she was.
She was gold as far as I was concerned.
And I said to him, how can she be intimidated by me?
That's crazy.
And he said, well, look at you, you're tall,
you're confident, you're beautiful, and you dress really sexy.
Those weren't his exact words.
But I take pride in how I look, particularly at work.
(11:12):
For me, it's really important to look the part.
And I am tall, I'm slim, and this is
going to sound really arrogant, but it's not arrogant.
And again, this is me being very female by
preempting what I'm about to say with this.
But anyway, so when I wear clothes, I like
to look good and people notice me because of
(11:35):
my height and because of the way I look.
So when he said that, it broke my heart because
again, it was a situation in which I am being
seen as a threat to something that I cannot change.
He said what he said and then went on to say, I think
it would be a good idea for you to dim down the way
(11:56):
that you dress and maybe not dress as nicely for work.
And for anyone listening, you might be
thinking you're probably wearing mini skirts and
crop tops to work and fishnet tights.
I wasn't okay.
I was wearing power suits and I was looking
the parts, and they weren't in crazy colors.
They were your traditional black, Navy, blue, and Gray.
(12:19):
But when he said that to me, my heart was broken
because I thought, I love the way that I look.
I show up to do it.
And to me, doing it is having
impact, making change, performing in my role.
And when he said that, I felt like he
was essentially saying, I need you to dim your
light so that other people can shine.
And I don't think anyone should have to do that.
(12:40):
Women are definitely oversexualized.
I know that it has happened a lot in my career.
I don't know whether I've been fortunate or
unfortunate, but I don't ever directly hear it.
So people historically haven't been confident enough
to say inappropriate things to me necessarily.
But I'll hear from other people what has been said.
So the guys in the pub might have
(13:02):
a few comments about what they'd like to
do to Grace or ridiculous things like that.
Or the MD may have said or
make sure Grace is in that meeting.
I want a bit of eye candy, and
things like that are inappropriate at work.
If you want to have a non
professional relationship, let's talk about it.
Outside of work, I don't expect to
(13:24):
be the subject of conversations with colleagues
behind my back or to my face.
And I don't think it's appropriate for any
woman or any person to experience that.
But unfortunately, women are subjected
to it significantly more.
And also men are given a pass to do it because
they're men, which I think that time is gone now.
(13:46):
Everyone's a bit smarter.
We know better now.
But unfortunately, it does keep happening.
And I think my message is to kind of any woman
who feels like she wants to look the part for work
is keep doing you call people out on the inappropriateness.
It's not okay.
We won't be gaslit.
We won't be made to feel unreasonable.
It's about actually, let's be seen as equal to you.
(14:09):
Yeah, we're here to do a job. Let us do our job.
We don't sexualize you and rate you in any way.
And there are a couple of things that
you just said that made my jaw drop.
And I've definitely heard things like this before.
But it's only when you really get to grips
with the sexual harassment that you have experienced over
(14:30):
many, many different ways, in lots of different times
in our lives, which we have.
And we were talking about this
last week with some other women.
There's something about that comment in the pub, and I
know it was just like an example, but even the
wording what we would like to do to Grace.
So it's almost like you don't get a say in
(14:50):
it, you don't get to enjoy any of this.
And again, I keep coming back to the podcast that
we just released with Gareth where we talk about consent
and the language in which we use is so important.
So that to me just rings massive alarm
bells in the way that those men were
talking to each other and allowing each other.
(15:12):
So whilst we definitely need to speak up, other
men need to do that to each other.
They need to say, this is
not appropriate, this is not right.
We need to be holding each other to account.
I think that in the same way that we no longer
have or I'd like to think we no longer have space
for overt racism and we will also call out covert racism.
(15:36):
I think we should be doing the
same for inappropriate comments around the way
someone looks or sexuality or sexualization.
I think the problem that we have is that school
playground mentality that still exists, whether that be in the
staff room or in the pub or wherever, where men
feel like, even if I disagree with this, all of
(15:56):
the guys are going along with it, so I'm just
going to go along with it.
I also find it hilarious as well, because even hearing comments
like, oh, what I'd like to do to Grace, half of
the people that I know have said things like that, wouldn't
dare say anything like that to my face.
So it's kind of like, why are you even saying
something that you yourself know not to be true, but
(16:19):
it's about the intent behind it as well.
The intent is to objectify and to diminish
and to remove respect for that individual.
And I think that's what really needs to be
looked at is what is your intent behind that?
And subsequently fixing yourself and fixing up,
as we say, and stop saying that.
Oh, wow, yeah, intent.
(16:41):
It's so funny.
I've just been taught I've just had a workshop
with one of my clients and we were just
talking about intentional aspects of inclusive leadership.
So it's so interesting to hear
it in a slightly different way.
Probably the opposite way, I guess, because a
lot of the intent behind comments like that
don't come from a conscious way of thinking.
(17:03):
They come from a gender stereotyped way of thinking.
As a general rule, you also mentioned their
respect, and I think that's a massive thing.
Certainly it's been for me, and my career is trying
to find that balance between how do I stay true
to my values but also gain the respect that I
(17:24):
deserve for the good work that I'm doing and the
outputs that I'm giving and the KPIs that are increasing
because of the work that I'm doing.
What's been your experience with the way you might
have had to maybe pick up male style traits
or using air quotes there to be taken seriously
in the work that you're doing.
(17:44):
I am actually an Alpha female, period.
So for me, male stereotypes at work and in
my personal life, in terms of how I organize
my home and my schedule, they are very Alpha,
so they are traditionally masculine traits.
Anyway, I actually find that for me, I've
had to do the opposite in the workplace.
(18:05):
I actually do this in relationships as well, which
is quite funny to discuss it with my therapist.
But I find myself reverting to type B in the
workplace initially to allow people to feel like I am
not a threat and to feel like they are open
to receiving me and to letting me in and to
(18:27):
allowing me to move forward within the organization.
And then once I'm comfortable, my type A comes out
and they get to know kind of the real Grace.
So for me, it's actually been the complete opposite.
And I think that's why this conversation is really
important because dimming your light doesn't necessarily always entail
(18:47):
being the male instead of the female.
Sometimes it's actually being overly female in
terms of behaviors in the workplace to
feel like you're then being allowed in.
And that's definitely been my experiences.
I've had to do the complete opposite.
That's really interesting because I have had a
bit of a different experience to that.
(19:09):
So I've worked with lots of really impressive,
really influential and inspiring women throughout my career.
Even very early on when I was managing bars
and stuff, when I was in my late teens.
And I remember looking up to them and
thinking, yeah, good on you, you're incredible.
But when I reflected back on it, they were
(19:31):
behaving in an extremely male stereotype way, not necessarily
in the Alpha female mindset, but I remember thinking,
well, that just didn't fit with me.
It just didn't make sense to me.
So I was kind of a bit lost
in the way that I was leading and
managing different departments and stuff like that.
And then a little bit further on
(19:51):
in my career, I met someone.
There were two directors in
this organization that were women.
One of the directors was super harsh,
super kind of straightforward with the information.
There was no niceties around things.
And her team were really scared of her.
It was just one of those types of environments.
She got the results, not sustainably, but she
(20:14):
definitely got the results in the first place.
But the cost of all the psychological safety, the
team, they were definitely members of the team that
had to dim their lights, as you say, because
they had to kind of hold themselves back a
little bit because they were terrified of her.
In contrast, my director, that was my line manager,
they approached things in a completely different way.
(20:37):
So yes, they were straightforward and yes, they
were very good at articulating their points.
And that was a really important message
that I learned quite early on.
They also had some of the
feminine traits that I naturally have.
Now, of course, they're probably gender stereotypes
has probably been what I've been conformed
to be over the years.
But there are things I like about myself, so I
(20:59):
like that I am a good listener to people.
I like that I try to support and help people,
but also I've got these other traits which are I'm
also someone that just wants to get the work done.
So that's a nice little chat and let's
get on with it kind of thing.
I'm here for you if you need me,
but I also want you to work autonomously.
So this director really highlighted to me that you
(21:20):
didn't have to change who you were to be
able to be this really powerful and inspiring businesswoman
or director or whatever it might be.
But it was really interesting the contrast between the
two, because I remember thinking before my director started,
I was looking at this other director and I
thought, I don't want to be like that.
(21:40):
Is that the only way I'm going to
be able to get to director level?
Because I just don't want to do that.
I'm not interested in changing who I
am to be able to do that.
So I find it really interesting.
We've had very different experiences, but I think the
nuance here, the thing between us is that actually
we stay true to who we are.
Yeah, I think what you said is really interesting
(22:02):
as well, actually, and I've never thought about it.
Most of my experience has been being managed by men.
So I've traditionally been managed by men who
have required me to behave a certain way
in order for them not to feel threatened.
And I remember my first manager who I absolutely
love, but he was also my first experience of
(22:22):
the professional world, and he was very old school
in terms of his view of men versus women.
He used language that you probably wouldn't hear in
the workplace today, and he would make comments about
how people look and how you should look as
(22:43):
a woman coming into work and what was appropriate
and what wasn't appropriate based on his own view,
as opposed to the professional view.
So his view is essentially the view of
what the guys are saying in the pub.
So if I hear anyone say anything sexualized about you, I'm
going to come and let you know you need to change
what you're wearing, as opposed to I'm going to let them
(23:05):
know that they shouldn't be saying those things.
So my mindset around what I needed to be in
the workplace was based off that very early experience and
also progressive experiences being managed by men after that.
The manager I described now, I absolutely love him.
He was my favorite manager of all time
and definitely supported me to become the success
(23:28):
that I feel I am today.
But when you think about some of those early lessons
and things that you learn quite early, but also it's
interesting what you said around the manager that you really
didn't want to be like and the manager that you
really did feel like you could see yourself being because
all I hear in there is that the perfect leader
(23:49):
is essentially masculine and feminine.
So they have those masculine traits where they can
get things done or they're viewed as masculine traits.
Anyway, we all know that women are
the ones that get things done.
But that view about this is the KPI.
This is what we need to achieve this month.
We're going to get there, and this is how we're
going to get there as well as are you okay?
You don't seem yourself.
(24:11):
Do you want to spend some time just having a tool?
Do you want to come in a little bit later?
Those kind of nurturing attributes
are traditionally seen as feminine.
And I have had some amazing male managers like that.
Unfortunately, I have not had positive experiences
with female line managers that I've had.
I've not had particularly nurturing leadership in
(24:34):
that way by direct line managers necessarily.
And that's not everyone.
But the negative experiences that I've had with
leaders have been with the females that I've
been managed by two in particular, one that
really still traumatizes me to this day. Wow. Yeah.
I mean, that's really interesting.
It does bring me on to a point
that I wanted to talk about as well,
(24:55):
which is around that intersectionality piece.
We're two very professional women that
are running our own businesses.
We're doing some really great things in our careers.
And that may not have been the natural
route for us had we kind of listened
to the naysayers, whether it was our teachers
or early line managers and people like that.
But I do think that there's something in my experience
(25:18):
as a white woman going up the ranks and your
experience as a black woman going up the ranks that
naturally there would have been different challenges.
So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this is
such a hard question because I don't want to put
the onus on to you with regards to let's fix
all of the covert racism that's happening in the workplace.
(25:40):
But if there was like a piece of advice
that you could give a white line manager, perhaps
they are a director or something like that and
they're managing younger black women, what is it that
you would have liked to have happened for you?
And maybe that could be a bit of
a piece of advice for other people.
So I did the Landmark Forum years ago.
(26:02):
And one of the things that one of the speakers
said that was quite contentious at the time that I
actually carried with me was that racism is a story
that has been created by people essentially.
And I think the challenge that we have is
that racism is a story that has been created,
but a lot of people believe and for me,
I would encourage senior leaders that are white women
(26:26):
potentially managing or coaching or mentoring black women, young
black women is forget that story.
It doesn't exist.
We are the same.
So spend that time getting to know the individual, find
the things that you have in common, and find the
things that actually will motivate you to support that woman,
(26:46):
to get to where she needs to get to and
see yourself in that person, because there is so much
that we have in common.
And if we put ourselves in each other's shoes, there's
so much more we would do for each other.
I think there's that piece around being on top of the
mountain and holding your hand out to help somebody up.
(27:06):
Just do that.
And it's interesting when you kind of started the
introduction to that question, I just had this image
of walking uphill in a Hurricane and fighting the
winds to get to the top.
I definitely feel like that's what it
felt like at points in my career
when it's been about trying to progress.
(27:27):
It's literally like climbing a mountain in a Hurricane.
Let's just see each other as we're meant
to be seen and forget the story. I love that.
And I think it's so interesting as well because I think
a lot of people will be like, well, I'm not racist.
And I of course, no, I don't think like that.
And that's absolutely not what we're saying.
It's about let's start seeing each other as equals.
(27:48):
I think when women are ambitious in their careers
already, there's a bit of a pushback with that.
If you add to that the stereotype of a black woman
being ambitious and telling people what she wants and what she
is going to work to get, you've got like the shoulders
up of the people, then you add to that the fact
(28:10):
that when people are very comfortable in their situation, they're surrounded
by people that look and act the same as they do
is a very comfortable place for us to be.
They feel really threatened when people want to
come and take that away from them.
Again, I'm using air quotes for the listener because
we know ultimately that everybody wins if we can
(28:30):
support each other and especially women supporting other women.
There is something about pulling each other up.
And it's really funny.
When I set the business up a few years ago,
there was just an enormous amount of support from people.
There was an enormous amount of what can I do?
How can I help you?
All of that sort of thing.
(28:51):
But there were also people that I thought were
going to be real allies to my business and
really support me and do things to help me
because I had done that with them.
When they started their career.
And of course, that wasn't the reason I did it, but
it would have been lovely to have had it back.
But there were a couple of
people and it was so baffling.
And I only really got my head around it recently.
(29:14):
There are a couple of people that it was almost like
they were threatened that I was going to do this.
Like I was going to somehow
take something away from them.
And then they actually closed themselves off and they
closed some opportunities off for me to be able
to grow the business in that particular area.
And I just remember thinking
it was absolutely mind boggling.
(29:34):
And then one of these people came back to me about
a year ago and said, oh, I know you're working with
this particular client and this and this and this.
Do you think you can introduce
me because I'm doing this work.
Now, had I been petty and not been trying to
really genuinely improve our society, I would have been like,
I'm so sorry I can't introduce you to anyone.
But instead I was like, of course, because I'm not
(29:56):
going to lessen my values because you decided that I
was threatening you in some way because of my ambition.
And I think that's how it can work
when you get to a very senior level
where there may be one more level above.
And it's like they've got to push the women down.
They've got to push the black women down as well.
Because if we come up, we're
(30:18):
going to challenge their thinking.
We're going to potentially change the way that
they work, and they just don't like it. Definitely.
I think even when you look at change
programs, people are traditionally averse to change.
We don't have change managers for no reason.
They're there because we know change is uncomfortable and we
need people to help us get comfortable with it.
(30:38):
That's just a really important point that I'd like
to make is that for me, the majority of
racism starts with conscious bias that was previously unconscious.
But you now know you have it but decide you don't
want to get rid of it because it has served you.
And I think that my biggest kind of call to action
to women in the workplace, irrespective of race, would be now
(31:02):
that you have that awareness, do something with it.
I'm a black woman. I grew up.
All of my family or most of my family are black.
I am used to seeing people that look like me at home.
However, as soon as I step outside,
the majority don't look like me.
So I've been required to understand different
cultures and to engage with different people.
(31:23):
And some people haven't had to
do that, which isn't your fault.
But what we're asking is that now that you're in a
space, if you're in the workplace with people that don't look
like you, the onus is on you to learn about those
people and to see those people in the same way that
you see the people that you're used to seeing all the
time, and it is unconscious, you're not used to it.
(31:45):
But I think a big part of changing the
narrative and doing things differently is being aware of
that discomfort or that aversion to what can I
say here or how can I Act here?
Because a lot of the time women like to keep black
women at a certain level, because it means they don't have
to engage with them on a day to day, because I
(32:05):
don't actually know what I'd say to you.
Sometimes it's as small as I don't know how to pronounce
your name, so I'm not going to hire you or I'm
not going to promote you because then I have to say
your name all the time and I don't know how to
that makes me uncomfortable having to learn it.
So I'm not going to do it, essentially.
And it sounds ridiculous to hear, and it is ridiculous in
(32:28):
the same way I heard this one day that in the
same way people take the time to learn how to pronounce.
I can't even say it's chavovsky or something.
Tikovsky Tchaikovsky, that's the one.
In the same way we spend the time, because
if you look at the way that name is
spelled, it is not how it's pronounced. Okay.
But we take the time to learn how
(32:50):
to say it, even though I just embarrassed
myself by not being able to say it.
But if you can take the time to learn
a name like that, you can take the time
to learn how to say Tammy Topper.
It's not difficult take the time and feel
great knowing that you did take the time.
And as a result of that, your workforce
and your team doesn't look like you. Yeah.
(33:12):
And ultimately, we know that when there's diversity,
there's so many statistics around this, we really
don't need to breed the business case here.
But the statistics say your business or your organization,
whether it's a charity or whatever, will succeed, it's
so much more likely to be sustainable.
You're going to attract even greater talent.
(33:32):
You're going to be able to make it last
a really long time and make some big differences
with your product or your service, whatever it is.
So, yes, we have to have different looking
and acting and thinking people throughout the organization.
And every time it's really interesting work from
lots of different industries at the moment.
But there's a particular industry that I'm
working with, and they say, well, we've
(33:54):
got lots of women on the board.
I'm like, that's great.
But everyone's white and actually
what's happening in between.
So let's have a look at your lower
levels and actually your entry level roles.
You've got a fantastic mix of diversity.
It's really reflective of your population.
And we're talking about neurodiversity, race, age,
(34:15):
gender, all of these wonderful things that
make us so wonderfully different.
But what happens is they're
not progressing through the organization.
And that really clicks onto that thing that
you were just saying is that I'm uncomfortable.
I don't know how to be around somebody.
That's very different to me.
And therefore, I'm going to
put invisible barriers in place.
I'm going to have particular policies.
(34:36):
I'm going to have certain questions in recruitment spaces and
things like that that are going to mean that it's
very difficult for this person to be able to move
up, even if they are capable and they have the
potential to grow into that role.
So I think it's a very real challenge,
and it's really hard for people to deny.
They do deny it, don't get me wrong, but it's
(34:57):
a very difficult thing to deny once you've got all
of the facts and the data in front of you
to prove that what we're talking about here is a
very real challenge in the working world. Absolutely.
It's interesting as well, because I think one of my
call to actions would be when we think about our
differences and when we think about equality and diversity and
(35:18):
what that entails and what that includes, we're thinking about
sexuality, we're thinking about race, et cetera.
If you look at how people prioritize those different
groups, I always find that really interesting because the
point you made around our senior leadership team or
our board is really diverse because there's women in
(35:39):
it, but they're all white women.
If you then go and look at some of
those organizations kind of EDI statements or diversity and
inclusion statements and they talk about what they prioritize,
you're traditionally find that race is the last one
because it's the most uncomfortable still, which is so
bizarre because when you think about it, there were
(36:00):
black people in the world before kind of sexuality
was even discussed or accepted.
But black people, Brown people, people of ethnic minorities,
when it comes to dealing with diversity and inclusion,
they are still the lowest on the totem pole
in terms of let's focus on that.
(36:21):
And I think for me, that's a massive call to action.
If it makes you uncomfortable still, that's
the one you need to prioritize first.
Everything else will be easy once you tackle
that, which isn't to reduce any of the
other differences that we have at all.
But it's just to say that statistics show, evidence
show and organizations, websites and diversity statements show that
(36:45):
race is still the issue that people find the
most difficult to deal with, and therefore they put
it at the bottom of their priority list and
it shouldn't be there. Yeah. Wow.
It's so interesting because I often work with a lot
of organizations and they want to just focus on gender.
And I think the reason they want to focus
on that for them because the conversation has been
(37:06):
going on for such a long time, it's a
lot less uncomfortable than some of the other conversations.
Then you add LGBTQ plus, that's a little bit more
comfortable because of the flags and the fact that this,
that and the other and the laws and stuff.
And you get further down, and you're so right.
When you get to race, people just shrivel
up into themselves, especially white people, because there's
(37:28):
a lot of shame attached to it.
We're very aware of the colonizations that we did.
We're very aware of how we are now still
benefiting from those in lots of different ways.
Some people are.
Some people aren't, of course, but even those of us
that are aware of it, it's still like, I still
find it uncomfortable, but I know it's really important to
(37:48):
talk about, because if you don't, nothing will ever change.
It will continue to be the same.
I've got one example I just want to share with you.
So it's an old organization I used to work with.
I was leading the DNI project, and
it was all the different workstreams.
And I had to go back to the Exec and
ask for some budget so that we could start doing
some work around learning, around awareness, just around all sorts
(38:10):
of really great events where we could really start to
wake everybody up to the idea that not everybody has
the same experience in life.
And I remember going into the meeting, I
can visualize it exactly now, going into the
boardroom, sitting down, talking to the Executor.
And I knew them quite well.
I was pretty well respected in that company,
and I started talking about some statistics.
(38:34):
So I started off with gender because
I thought, let's ease them in.
Gender is nice and easy.
People like talking about this.
They feel like since the gender pay
gaps come in, it's all sorted.
So obviously there's a hell of a lot more
work to do, but they're way more comfortable.
So I started talking about that, and
they all got involved in the conversation.
They physically like their body language was involved.
The second I pulled up the slide where we
(38:57):
were talking about race and we were talking about
the visibility throughout the different layers of the organization,
and I was trying to highlight that there's not
representation throughout, and clearly there's a reason.
And their body language completely
just went in on themselves.
They sat back, their shoulders sloped.
Everyone was really quiet.
And it's so interesting.
(39:18):
If people are finding things
comfortable, we're not moving forward. We all know that.
I'm a learning professional.
If we are in our comfort zones,
we are learning the bare minimum.
We're not empowering ourselves to really push forward.
If we take ourselves so far out of
our comfort zone, it might be too far.
So there's like a sweet spot in the middle where
(39:39):
we can gently nudge people to have these conversations.
And that's a big part of the work
that I do with my clients is create
those spaces where those conversations can be had.
But it was just really
interesting when you're saying that.
And I think representation is so important in
different careers, in different industries, at senior levels.
(40:00):
And as soon as people start to realize that, I think
we'll be able to really snowball this and move forward.
But there's so much work to do.
But yeah, that uncomfortable piece is essential.
It is definitely one of the things I'd love
to get from you just because I think one
of the reasons that people like this podcast is
that they get some really helpful tips.
And there's definitely been a
(40:20):
couple that have come through.
But I'd love to know if there's any advice
you would give to a younger woman coming into
the working world and how can they stay true
to themselves when they're being told whether it's consciously
or unconsciously to behave in a slightly different way?
So really challenging one, because I feel like
(40:42):
as a woman in particular, when you're entering
your profession or your career, there is always
that concern of rocking the boat.
And I think the concern is valid.
I always think it's good to be self aware and to be
kind and to add value in this space that you're in.
But I also think that women's intuition isn't a myth.
(41:03):
If it feels uncomfortable, it feels unsafe, or it feels
contrary to your belief system and to what drives you
and gives you purpose, then it's not for you.
And I think one of the things that this generation
have that is a massive luxury that I didn't have
growing up is social media and the ease of travel.
(41:23):
There are so many different careers out there
and different things that you can do.
And I say this again and again to people is
spend the time identifying what genuinely makes your soul sing.
It sounds romantic, but it's true.
And I'm only doing that now at the age of 38.
But don't get involved in a cattle race that
doesn't serve you, find what suits you, find what
(41:47):
drives you and find what you enjoy, and then
work out how to make money from it.
And I heard a millionaire say that
a while back, but it's so true.
I wish I had done that and I wish someone had told
me to do that, but that would be my biggest tip is
take the time to identify what it is that's right for you
and then really focus on how you're going to get that.
Yeah. Wow.
That idea of the listening to
(42:09):
your intuition into your gut.
There's definitely been situations where I haven't
done that and it's ended really badly.
I was only there for a few months.
I had one role where I was in a very senior position.
I was an employee at the time, and I
had been warned off the interview by a couple
of my HR friends who were in different industries,
(42:32):
but they'd heard about the MD of this company.
And they were like, don't do it.
Trust me, you regret it.
And I was like, It's fine, I can handle it. I'm tough.
So I went to the interview and it was just
I mean, there were red flags, there were sirens.
It was so obvious that I shouldn't have gone there,
but I just convinced myself that it was okay.
(42:53):
I pushed that feeling down.
And one of the questions that I was asking, which
I can guarantee hardly any men have ever been asked,
this question was, okay, so are you in a relationship?
And I think I was about 29 at the time.
I was like, no, I'm not in a relationship.
And he was like, right?
Because I need someone that's very committed to this.
And I was like, that's fine.
He's like, but you're about to turn 30.
(43:14):
Are you going to have children soon?
Because I need to know, literally, those
were exactly the words that he used.
And I remember feeling really angry at
the time, but just saying, no, I'm
not planning on having children anytime soon.
I'm very committed to my career at the moment.
Yada, yada, yada.
And I left and I did get the
(43:35):
job and I worked there for five months.
And it made me so ill that I had no
choice but to leave, not just mentally or but physically.
I was constantly unwell because of the ridiculous pressure
that person is putting on me and just the
disgusting culture and the way in which they disregarded
(43:57):
the human beings in their business.
Sadly, it is still a thriving business.
But I do think that that person
has moved away from that role.
I think the shareholders had to remove them.
But yeah, listen to your intuition.
Probably the best piece of advice.
I wish someone had said that to me when I was about 21.
Speaking about 21, what do you wish you knew when you
(44:20):
were 21 that you know now that could have helped you
to be really true to yourself throughout your career?
There's a lot that I didn't know when I was to anyone.
I'm not sure if any of them.
Yeah, I don't know if there's anything that
I wish I knew that would have necessarily
changed the direction of my career.
I think it's more things that
(44:41):
I'd have liked to know earlier.
I think going all the way back to a
secondary school for me, I had an incident with
maths teacher at the time who hated me.
And I went to a brilliant school in Victoria loved it.
She hated me, basically.
I was in the top set for
maths, and that really bothered her.
(45:03):
I was also the girl that didn't stand for
teachers calling their students stupid or just being nasty.
And she was very nasty and she did it at every lesson.
And I'd always stand up to her.
So I'd always get sent to the deputy heads office and
one day another girl in the class had a fountain pen.
So back in the day we used to use
these amazing Lammy fountain pens and she was flicking
(45:25):
her ink at the back of the teacher's dress.
And by the time the lesson had finished, the
teacher's dress was basically a Dalmatian design and it
had originally been like a beige dress.
And she found out about it after the lesson.
No one told her and she found out when she went to
the staff room and she blamed it on me and I didn't
(45:45):
even own a fountain pen, she blamed it on me.
And basically because I've been sent to the Deputy heads
office so often, she essentially said, now she's flicking in
on me, I can't have her in my class anymore.
Now, bearing in mind I was only ever sent to the
Deputy heads office for challenging her on her rudeness to her
students and the deputy had never told me off.
(46:06):
She just always sent me back to say sorry,
but I was moved down a set because this
teacher essentially refused to work with me anymore.
And that meant that I could only sit the intermediate paper for
maths, which meant I could only achieve a B grade instead of
an A, which is what I would have needed to go on
to be a math teacher, which is what I wanted to do
before kind of when I started my career.
(46:28):
It turned out that actually you can't do your
A levels if you can't do a math level
with a B grade at math GCSE.
And I think that's what I would have liked
to know is just that awareness a bit early
on around the decisions that individuals make and the
impact that that can have on your path.
I have no regrets about not being
a math teacher anymore because doing math
(46:50):
homework with my daughter is torture.
It's just about being given the choice.
And I think for me that's the only thing.
But I think for other people it's just
about having that awareness early on, being aware
of what you are entitled to and it's
not looking at entitled to as in entitlement.
It's about actually what is everyone else given access
(47:11):
to that I should also be given access to
and doing everything you can to get that access.
I think that's the biggest thing for me.
This also comes back to one of the earlier
comments you made about standing at the top of
the mountain and lifting other women up.
That teacher did not do that. Interestingly.
That teacher could have been the reason that you
(47:34):
gave up on yourself, but fortunately you didn't.
I had a teacher.
I'm not going to mention their name.
They still live in my hometown.
Actually, I had a teacher that hated me
because mine was a little bit different.
I wasn't calling her out, I was just a bit naughty.
So I kind of got where she didn't like
me, but I was naughty because I was misunderstood.
(47:57):
And the teachers that took the time to understand me really
made a difference in the way that I work now.
They made a difference in the way
that I run my business, even.
But this teacher, Interestingly, I went to
College, dropped out and started working.
And I was working in a bakery when I was about 17.
And at the time, I didn't really
know what I wanted to do.
I kind of wanted to go back to College.
(48:18):
And this teacher had walked in.
So this teacher had sent me out every class
I had in year 1011 of this particular subject.
This teacher had kicked me out.
So I basically learned nothing at all about
this subject and had just gone and probably
smoked on the playground or done something naughty
because I was quite naughty.
But she came into this bakery that I
(48:39):
was working at, and it was just cringe.
I don't know if you've ever had to serve
someone you really don't like in the service industry,
whether it's restaurant or whatever, but I went and
served her and had my head down.
I felt really ashamed of myself.
Not that there was anything wrong with doing that
job, but just that she sent me and I
wasn't at College or 6th form like everyone else.
(49:00):
Anyway, as she left this bakery, she
took the time to turn around.
This is somebody who molds young minds.
She took the time to turn around and say, I
knew you wouldn't amount to anything and then walk out.
Now, that was a very nasty, awful thing to say.
But it was the exact kick of the ask
that I needed to go back to College.
(49:22):
So I thank her for that.
Maybe I should say her name, actually, because a lot of
my success now is because of the way she treated me.
But I do think that there is
something in helping other women up.
When women push other women down, it's ten times
worse than if men are not helping women.
So we have to be able to lift each other
up, and we have to know and have that abundance
(49:42):
mindset that there's plenty of work out there.
There's plenty of space for all of us to be
ourselves so we don't have to keep pushing people down.
Thank you so much for taking this time.
There's been some really good things for me
to think about and reflect on, and hopefully
the same for our listeners as well.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Be lovely. Thanks. See you soon.
(50:05):
Take care.
That's it.
That's the end of this episode, and what a few
fantastic things for us to take away, a few things
for us to think about, and of course, some reflection,
perhaps, that we can do on ourselves as well.
(50:27):
I think it's really important that we support
each other as women and not nonbinary people,
especially in careers, where it's very male dominated
really great things that we've learned today.
And I look forward to seeing you on the next one.
Welcome to our newest podcast.
Today we are talking to the incredible Grace, who
is somebody that I've known for quite some time.
We've worked together on various projects, and now
she is in the middle of setting up
an amazing organization and lots of other really
fantastic things that she's working on as well.
(00:27):
We're going to have a really good conversation today all
about what it's like to be a woman in the
workplace, to really have to hide parts of your identity,
to maybe even adapt the way that you behave, especially
when you're in the senior roles.
We're also going to have a really good conversation about
how intersectionality can really play a piece in the way
(00:48):
that we build our careers and the way that we
come across in the work that we do.
So without further Ado, grab a cover,
settle in and enjoy the podcast.
Hi Grace.
I feel very proud to say that we are not
(01:08):
just people that get to work with each other and
do different business together, but we're actually friends now.
So I would love to have a really good conversation with
you today about what it's like to be a woman in
the working world, what it's like to be a black woman
in the working world, how we might need to adapt the
way we are and adapt our kind of core traits if
(01:32):
you like to be able to fit in, but also what
we've learned from that and how we've evolved.
Before we get started, though, I would just love for our
listeners to get to know you just a little bit more
because you've had a really great career so far.
So I'd love to hear a little bit
about your experience and then where you're at
now because you're doing some really cool things.
(01:54):
So over to you. No pressure.
Then I've had a really broad career
and I'm really pleased about it.
A lot of people are kind of like,
oh my gosh, where is your career taken?
You I started my career in recruitment and
then decided that actually I like helping people
rather than just making a business money.
So I decided to go into
(02:15):
welfare to work, which was essentially
me supporting disadvantaged individuals into work.
So it ticked all the boxes in
terms of what I was good at.
I quickly realized that I love talking to people
and I'm very good at that and building relationships.
I moved into stakeholder engagement for welfare
to work organizations and then started to
actually coach leaders within organizations to develop
(02:37):
in their own careers.
And my career over the last year has just
taken a dramatic turn as a result of kind
of personal health concerns last year and just feeling
that need to find purpose in my being.
So I've moved into working for myself.
So I'm now a consultant.
I support organizations to change and to
(02:59):
become better than they are, I hope.
I'm also an entrepreneur, so I own a jewelry brand
as well as currently working on a new opportunity that
I'm hoping will be a really purposeful social enterprise.
We connected quite early on
because we had similar values.
I think that's what happens at work.
And we were talking really recently about the
(03:21):
idea that women in careers, especially when they
get to very senior levels, feel the need
to change parts of themselves, maybe to make
ourselves less threatening in some people's eyes.
I want to talk about that a little bit because
we kind of started getting into the conversation in a
bit of detail when we were working together the other
(03:41):
day, and I was like, no, hold that thought.
Let's record this because this is so interesting.
So I'd love to get your thoughts on that in general.
I think when we got together, we always do this anyway.
We start basically trying to take on the
world and change it right then and there.
But I think one of the key things that came
out of the conversation was just around how we become
(04:03):
who we are based on our experiences and some of
the challenges that women, irrespective of race, but particularly black
women as well, have within the workplace and how that
can sometimes lead to us acting in a way that's
not true to who we are as a result of
feeling the pressures of needing to conform or needing to
(04:23):
be non threatening or needing to be liked.
Essentially, I think is the biggest driver.
Everyone just wants to be liked.
And I think sometimes as career women that are driven
and really want to achieve things, you sometimes feel like,
actually, I can't be my full, authentic self because some
people won't like me as a result of that because
(04:45):
they think she's trying to get above her station.
And I think as women, we struggle with that a lot.
So that was definitely what kickstarted
the idea for today's discussion.
Yeah, I love that. That's so true.
We can't help but try and put the world together.
I'm starting to feel like that might be
me as well, because it's definitely a common
(05:05):
theme amongst lots of my working relationships.
You said there a little bit about how
we might have to be less threatening.
I'd just be really interested to hear why
you think it is that people want to
make women feel like we're being threatening when
we're being assertive or when we're perhaps very
(05:27):
confident in the idea that we're talking about.
My view is that the best way
to disarm someone is to attack them.
And I feel like that's the reason that people do
that, if I'm honest, because how do I disarm you
and stop you from doing what you're doing?
So I'm going to tell you that you are or you're
(05:50):
doing something that you're not, and I know it's going to
upset you and he's going to throw you off track.
And I think that's why people do it.
If I'm honest, it's the easiest way
to distract someone from their goal.
And I think it's playing dirty.
If I'm honest, because you then feel the need to
defend yourself as opposed to just genuinely doing what you're
there to do, which is to be great.
(06:12):
I'm nodding because there are a couple of words that
have just come into my head, as you've been saying,
that one of them is gaslighting, which I don't think
well, most of the time people don't do intentionally, of
course, but I think there's something around that.
And also there's that aspect that women are emotional.
I'm doing air quotes for the listeners.
Women are emotional.
(06:33):
So if we respond to that accusation of us
being aggressive or threatening or whatever, it might be
because we're being confident and assertive and we know
our skills and our abilities, we can't possibly respond.
We're kind of stuck in between
because if we respond, we're emotional.
We're playing up to the stereotype of a woman.
(06:53):
If we don't, then we're not really standing
up for ourselves and we're allowing that.
So it's kind of a rock in a hard place. Exactly.
It's interesting as well, because I think that's
one of the major questions is do gaslighters
know their gas lighting or when people Gaslight,
do they know they're doing it?
And I feel like we need to create this
(07:14):
term in the same way we've got unconscious buyers.
Maybe we need to talk about unconscious gas
lighting and how you make yourself aware of
when you're doing it and try not to.
I think gas lighting is disgusting, but I think as
women, we experience it in every field, whether that be
in relationships, whether that be in our careers.
And like you said, because of those stereotypes that
(07:36):
are placed against us, it's just so disarming.
It literally is just wrong.
Yeah, I think that's fair.
I think that there is something around those gender norms
and the stereotypes that society puts on each of us.
I was having a really interesting conversation on
another podcast with this amazing company called Taylor
(07:59):
Education, who work on Sex Reeducation and all
of those sorts of discussions.
And we were talking about how dangerous gender
norms can be in every type of relationship.
And I think the idea then the question
around, does the Gaslighter know that they're gaslighting
(08:21):
is probably the same question as does the
person being Gaslight know that they're being Gaslight?
And I think in a lot of situations, especially at
work, because we're trying to show that we're capable, we're
trying to reach our potential, we're trying to work really
hard and show that we're committed, do all of these
amazing things whilst also not being to this and to
(08:42):
that and too emotional and this.
But also we need to make sure that
we're nurturing people because that's the female stereotype,
especially when you're a senior leader.
So it's just such an imbalance.
And it's so difficult to figure out.
What am I supposed to be as a leader?
What is society telling me what I'm being
and actually what do I want to be?
(09:03):
But how can I utilize that to be able to move forward?
It's exhausting.
I can describe it as yeah, definitely.
I can think of so many situations where I have
been working and we were talking about this a little
bit around the idea of women being oversexualized at work.
And I've definitely, obviously I won't mention the organizational
(09:25):
names, but some of the previous organizations I've worked
for as an employee, I've heard the most derogatory
comments about myself that senior leaders have said and
it's got back to me because I straighten my
hair or I wear lipstick.
It's just to me I'm like, I just
want to feel like I look good.
It's not any reflection on my work and actually that's
(09:48):
not a place for you to have that conversation.
So there's just some real traits
that sneak into the career space.
So for people perhaps that aren't aware of this or
they don't think that this happens, it's very real.
What are your thoughts then on the idea
that women can be oversexualized in the workplace?
(10:08):
Unfortunately it happens every day and
it happens all the time.
I remember a few years back when I started
to climb the career ladder and I'd been put
on a leadership development program by my organization and
I was allocated an executive coach as part of
that and I absolutely loved him. Such a great guy.
(10:28):
And we ended up talking about the HRD and just
how in awe of her I was and how I
really saw her as someone that I looked up to
and that I found her quite intimidating.
And my executive coach basically said
she finds you really intimidating.
Now at the time I was a junior manager.
This woman was a HRD.
(10:49):
She's climb like various steps to get to where she was.
She was gold as far as I was concerned.
And I said to him, how can she be intimidated by me?
That's crazy.
And he said, well, look at you, you're tall,
you're confident, you're beautiful, and you dress really sexy.
Those weren't his exact words.
But I take pride in how I look, particularly at work.
(11:12):
For me, it's really important to look the part.
And I am tall, I'm slim, and this is
going to sound really arrogant, but it's not arrogant.
And again, this is me being very female by
preempting what I'm about to say with this.
But anyway, so when I wear clothes, I like
to look good and people notice me because of
(11:35):
my height and because of the way I look.
So when he said that, it broke my heart because
again, it was a situation in which I am being
seen as a threat to something that I cannot change.
He said what he said and then went on to say, I think
it would be a good idea for you to dim down the way
(11:56):
that you dress and maybe not dress as nicely for work.
And for anyone listening, you might be
thinking you're probably wearing mini skirts and
crop tops to work and fishnet tights.
I wasn't okay.
I was wearing power suits and I was looking
the parts, and they weren't in crazy colors.
They were your traditional black, Navy, blue, and Gray.
(12:19):
But when he said that to me, my heart was broken
because I thought, I love the way that I look.
I show up to do it.
And to me, doing it is having
impact, making change, performing in my role.
And when he said that, I felt like he
was essentially saying, I need you to dim your
light so that other people can shine.
And I don't think anyone should have to do that.
(12:40):
Women are definitely oversexualized.
I know that it has happened a lot in my career.
I don't know whether I've been fortunate or
unfortunate, but I don't ever directly hear it.
So people historically haven't been confident enough
to say inappropriate things to me necessarily.
But I'll hear from other people what has been said.
So the guys in the pub might have
(13:02):
a few comments about what they'd like to
do to Grace or ridiculous things like that.
Or the MD may have said or
make sure Grace is in that meeting.
I want a bit of eye candy, and
things like that are inappropriate at work.
If you want to have a non
professional relationship, let's talk about it.
Outside of work, I don't expect to
(13:24):
be the subject of conversations with colleagues
behind my back or to my face.
And I don't think it's appropriate for any
woman or any person to experience that.
But unfortunately, women are subjected
to it significantly more.
And also men are given a pass to do it because
they're men, which I think that time is gone now.
(13:46):
Everyone's a bit smarter.
We know better now.
But unfortunately, it does keep happening.
And I think my message is to kind of any woman
who feels like she wants to look the part for work
is keep doing you call people out on the inappropriateness.
It's not okay.
We won't be gaslit.
We won't be made to feel unreasonable.
It's about actually, let's be seen as equal to you.
(14:09):
Yeah, we're here to do a job. Let us do our job.
We don't sexualize you and rate you in any way.
And there are a couple of things that
you just said that made my jaw drop.
And I've definitely heard things like this before.
But it's only when you really get to grips
with the sexual harassment that you have experienced over
(14:30):
many, many different ways, in lots of different times
in our lives, which we have.
And we were talking about this
last week with some other women.
There's something about that comment in the pub, and I
know it was just like an example, but even the
wording what we would like to do to Grace.
So it's almost like you don't get a say in
(14:50):
it, you don't get to enjoy any of this.
And again, I keep coming back to the podcast that
we just released with Gareth where we talk about consent
and the language in which we use is so important.
So that to me just rings massive alarm
bells in the way that those men were
talking to each other and allowing each other.
(15:12):
So whilst we definitely need to speak up, other
men need to do that to each other.
They need to say, this is
not appropriate, this is not right.
We need to be holding each other to account.
I think that in the same way that we no longer
have or I'd like to think we no longer have space
for overt racism and we will also call out covert racism.
(15:36):
I think we should be doing the
same for inappropriate comments around the way
someone looks or sexuality or sexualization.
I think the problem that we have is that school
playground mentality that still exists, whether that be in the
staff room or in the pub or wherever, where men
feel like, even if I disagree with this, all of
(15:56):
the guys are going along with it, so I'm just
going to go along with it.
I also find it hilarious as well, because even hearing comments
like, oh, what I'd like to do to Grace, half of
the people that I know have said things like that, wouldn't
dare say anything like that to my face.
So it's kind of like, why are you even saying
something that you yourself know not to be true, but
(16:19):
it's about the intent behind it as well.
The intent is to objectify and to diminish
and to remove respect for that individual.
And I think that's what really needs to be
looked at is what is your intent behind that?
And subsequently fixing yourself and fixing up,
as we say, and stop saying that.
Oh, wow, yeah, intent.
(16:41):
It's so funny.
I've just been taught I've just had a workshop
with one of my clients and we were just
talking about intentional aspects of inclusive leadership.
So it's so interesting to hear
it in a slightly different way.
Probably the opposite way, I guess, because a
lot of the intent behind comments like that
don't come from a conscious way of thinking.
(17:03):
They come from a gender stereotyped way of thinking.
As a general rule, you also mentioned their
respect, and I think that's a massive thing.
Certainly it's been for me, and my career is trying
to find that balance between how do I stay true
to my values but also gain the respect that I
(17:24):
deserve for the good work that I'm doing and the
outputs that I'm giving and the KPIs that are increasing
because of the work that I'm doing.
What's been your experience with the way you might
have had to maybe pick up male style traits
or using air quotes there to be taken seriously
in the work that you're doing.
(17:44):
I am actually an Alpha female, period.
So for me, male stereotypes at work and in
my personal life, in terms of how I organize
my home and my schedule, they are very Alpha,
so they are traditionally masculine traits.
Anyway, I actually find that for me, I've
had to do the opposite in the workplace.
(18:05):
I actually do this in relationships as well, which
is quite funny to discuss it with my therapist.
But I find myself reverting to type B in the
workplace initially to allow people to feel like I am
not a threat and to feel like they are open
to receiving me and to letting me in and to
(18:27):
allowing me to move forward within the organization.
And then once I'm comfortable, my type A comes out
and they get to know kind of the real Grace.
So for me, it's actually been the complete opposite.
And I think that's why this conversation is really
important because dimming your light doesn't necessarily always entail
(18:47):
being the male instead of the female.
Sometimes it's actually being overly female in
terms of behaviors in the workplace to
feel like you're then being allowed in.
And that's definitely been my experiences.
I've had to do the complete opposite.
That's really interesting because I have had a
bit of a different experience to that.
(19:09):
So I've worked with lots of really impressive,
really influential and inspiring women throughout my career.
Even very early on when I was managing bars
and stuff, when I was in my late teens.
And I remember looking up to them and
thinking, yeah, good on you, you're incredible.
But when I reflected back on it, they were
(19:31):
behaving in an extremely male stereotype way, not necessarily
in the Alpha female mindset, but I remember thinking,
well, that just didn't fit with me.
It just didn't make sense to me.
So I was kind of a bit lost
in the way that I was leading and
managing different departments and stuff like that.
And then a little bit further on
(19:51):
in my career, I met someone.
There were two directors in
this organization that were women.
One of the directors was super harsh,
super kind of straightforward with the information.
There was no niceties around things.
And her team were really scared of her.
It was just one of those types of environments.
She got the results, not sustainably, but she
(20:14):
definitely got the results in the first place.
But the cost of all the psychological safety, the
team, they were definitely members of the team that
had to dim their lights, as you say, because
they had to kind of hold themselves back a
little bit because they were terrified of her.
In contrast, my director, that was my line manager,
they approached things in a completely different way.
(20:37):
So yes, they were straightforward and yes, they
were very good at articulating their points.
And that was a really important message
that I learned quite early on.
They also had some of the
feminine traits that I naturally have.
Now, of course, they're probably gender stereotypes
has probably been what I've been conformed
to be over the years.
But there are things I like about myself, so I
(20:59):
like that I am a good listener to people.
I like that I try to support and help people,
but also I've got these other traits which are I'm
also someone that just wants to get the work done.
So that's a nice little chat and let's
get on with it kind of thing.
I'm here for you if you need me,
but I also want you to work autonomously.
So this director really highlighted to me that you
(21:20):
didn't have to change who you were to be
able to be this really powerful and inspiring businesswoman
or director or whatever it might be.
But it was really interesting the contrast between the
two, because I remember thinking before my director started,
I was looking at this other director and I
thought, I don't want to be like that.
(21:40):
Is that the only way I'm going to
be able to get to director level?
Because I just don't want to do that.
I'm not interested in changing who I
am to be able to do that.
So I find it really interesting.
We've had very different experiences, but I think the
nuance here, the thing between us is that actually
we stay true to who we are.
Yeah, I think what you said is really interesting
(22:02):
as well, actually, and I've never thought about it.
Most of my experience has been being managed by men.
So I've traditionally been managed by men who
have required me to behave a certain way
in order for them not to feel threatened.
And I remember my first manager who I absolutely
love, but he was also my first experience of
(22:22):
the professional world, and he was very old school
in terms of his view of men versus women.
He used language that you probably wouldn't hear in
the workplace today, and he would make comments about
how people look and how you should look as
(22:43):
a woman coming into work and what was appropriate
and what wasn't appropriate based on his own view,
as opposed to the professional view.
So his view is essentially the view of
what the guys are saying in the pub.
So if I hear anyone say anything sexualized about you, I'm
going to come and let you know you need to change
what you're wearing, as opposed to I'm going to let them
(23:05):
know that they shouldn't be saying those things.
So my mindset around what I needed to be in
the workplace was based off that very early experience and
also progressive experiences being managed by men after that.
The manager I described now, I absolutely love him.
He was my favorite manager of all time
and definitely supported me to become the success
(23:28):
that I feel I am today.
But when you think about some of those early lessons
and things that you learn quite early, but also it's
interesting what you said around the manager that you really
didn't want to be like and the manager that you
really did feel like you could see yourself being because
all I hear in there is that the perfect leader
(23:49):
is essentially masculine and feminine.
So they have those masculine traits where they can
get things done or they're viewed as masculine traits.
Anyway, we all know that women are
the ones that get things done.
But that view about this is the KPI.
This is what we need to achieve this month.
We're going to get there, and this is how we're
going to get there as well as are you okay?
You don't seem yourself.
(24:11):
Do you want to spend some time just having a tool?
Do you want to come in a little bit later?
Those kind of nurturing attributes
are traditionally seen as feminine.
And I have had some amazing male managers like that.
Unfortunately, I have not had positive experiences
with female line managers that I've had.
I've not had particularly nurturing leadership in
(24:34):
that way by direct line managers necessarily.
And that's not everyone.
But the negative experiences that I've had with
leaders have been with the females that I've
been managed by two in particular, one that
really still traumatizes me to this day. Wow. Yeah.
I mean, that's really interesting.
It does bring me on to a point
that I wanted to talk about as well,
(24:55):
which is around that intersectionality piece.
We're two very professional women that
are running our own businesses.
We're doing some really great things in our careers.
And that may not have been the natural
route for us had we kind of listened
to the naysayers, whether it was our teachers
or early line managers and people like that.
But I do think that there's something in my experience
(25:18):
as a white woman going up the ranks and your
experience as a black woman going up the ranks that
naturally there would have been different challenges.
So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this is
such a hard question because I don't want to put
the onus on to you with regards to let's fix
all of the covert racism that's happening in the workplace.
(25:40):
But if there was like a piece of advice
that you could give a white line manager, perhaps
they are a director or something like that and
they're managing younger black women, what is it that
you would have liked to have happened for you?
And maybe that could be a bit of
a piece of advice for other people.
So I did the Landmark Forum years ago.
(26:02):
And one of the things that one of the speakers
said that was quite contentious at the time that I
actually carried with me was that racism is a story
that has been created by people essentially.
And I think the challenge that we have is
that racism is a story that has been created,
but a lot of people believe and for me,
I would encourage senior leaders that are white women
(26:26):
potentially managing or coaching or mentoring black women, young
black women is forget that story.
It doesn't exist.
We are the same.
So spend that time getting to know the individual, find
the things that you have in common, and find the
things that actually will motivate you to support that woman,
(26:46):
to get to where she needs to get to and
see yourself in that person, because there is so much
that we have in common.
And if we put ourselves in each other's shoes, there's
so much more we would do for each other.
I think there's that piece around being on top of the
mountain and holding your hand out to help somebody up.
(27:06):
Just do that.
And it's interesting when you kind of started the
introduction to that question, I just had this image
of walking uphill in a Hurricane and fighting the
winds to get to the top.
I definitely feel like that's what it
felt like at points in my career
when it's been about trying to progress.
(27:27):
It's literally like climbing a mountain in a Hurricane.
Let's just see each other as we're meant
to be seen and forget the story. I love that.
And I think it's so interesting as well because I think
a lot of people will be like, well, I'm not racist.
And I of course, no, I don't think like that.
And that's absolutely not what we're saying.
It's about let's start seeing each other as equals.
(27:48):
I think when women are ambitious in their careers
already, there's a bit of a pushback with that.
If you add to that the stereotype of a black woman
being ambitious and telling people what she wants and what she
is going to work to get, you've got like the shoulders
up of the people, then you add to that the fact
(28:10):
that when people are very comfortable in their situation, they're surrounded
by people that look and act the same as they do
is a very comfortable place for us to be.
They feel really threatened when people want to
come and take that away from them.
Again, I'm using air quotes for the listener because
we know ultimately that everybody wins if we can
(28:30):
support each other and especially women supporting other women.
There is something about pulling each other up.
And it's really funny.
When I set the business up a few years ago,
there was just an enormous amount of support from people.
There was an enormous amount of what can I do?
How can I help you?
All of that sort of thing.
(28:51):
But there were also people that I thought were
going to be real allies to my business and
really support me and do things to help me
because I had done that with them.
When they started their career.
And of course, that wasn't the reason I did it, but
it would have been lovely to have had it back.
But there were a couple of
people and it was so baffling.
And I only really got my head around it recently.
(29:14):
There are a couple of people that it was almost like
they were threatened that I was going to do this.
Like I was going to somehow
take something away from them.
And then they actually closed themselves off and they
closed some opportunities off for me to be able
to grow the business in that particular area.
And I just remember thinking
it was absolutely mind boggling.
(29:34):
And then one of these people came back to me about
a year ago and said, oh, I know you're working with
this particular client and this and this and this.
Do you think you can introduce
me because I'm doing this work.
Now, had I been petty and not been trying to
really genuinely improve our society, I would have been like,
I'm so sorry I can't introduce you to anyone.
But instead I was like, of course, because I'm not
(29:56):
going to lessen my values because you decided that I
was threatening you in some way because of my ambition.
And I think that's how it can work
when you get to a very senior level
where there may be one more level above.
And it's like they've got to push the women down.
They've got to push the black women down as well.
Because if we come up, we're
(30:18):
going to challenge their thinking.
We're going to potentially change the way that
they work, and they just don't like it. Definitely.
I think even when you look at change
programs, people are traditionally averse to change.
We don't have change managers for no reason.
They're there because we know change is uncomfortable and we
need people to help us get comfortable with it.
(30:38):
That's just a really important point that I'd like
to make is that for me, the majority of
racism starts with conscious bias that was previously unconscious.
But you now know you have it but decide you don't
want to get rid of it because it has served you.
And I think that my biggest kind of call to action
to women in the workplace, irrespective of race, would be now
(31:02):
that you have that awareness, do something with it.
I'm a black woman. I grew up.
All of my family or most of my family are black.
I am used to seeing people that look like me at home.
However, as soon as I step outside,
the majority don't look like me.
So I've been required to understand different
cultures and to engage with different people.
(31:23):
And some people haven't had to
do that, which isn't your fault.
But what we're asking is that now that you're in a
space, if you're in the workplace with people that don't look
like you, the onus is on you to learn about those
people and to see those people in the same way that
you see the people that you're used to seeing all the
time, and it is unconscious, you're not used to it.
(31:45):
But I think a big part of changing the
narrative and doing things differently is being aware of
that discomfort or that aversion to what can I
say here or how can I Act here?
Because a lot of the time women like to keep black
women at a certain level, because it means they don't have
to engage with them on a day to day, because I
(32:05):
don't actually know what I'd say to you.
Sometimes it's as small as I don't know how to pronounce
your name, so I'm not going to hire you or I'm
not going to promote you because then I have to say
your name all the time and I don't know how to
that makes me uncomfortable having to learn it.
So I'm not going to do it, essentially.
And it sounds ridiculous to hear, and it is ridiculous in
(32:28):
the same way I heard this one day that in the
same way people take the time to learn how to pronounce.
I can't even say it's chavovsky or something.
Tikovsky Tchaikovsky, that's the one.
In the same way we spend the time, because
if you look at the way that name is
spelled, it is not how it's pronounced. Okay.
But we take the time to learn how
(32:50):
to say it, even though I just embarrassed
myself by not being able to say it.
But if you can take the time to learn
a name like that, you can take the time
to learn how to say Tammy Topper.
It's not difficult take the time and feel
great knowing that you did take the time.
And as a result of that, your workforce
and your team doesn't look like you. Yeah.
(33:12):
And ultimately, we know that when there's diversity,
there's so many statistics around this, we really
don't need to breed the business case here.
But the statistics say your business or your organization,
whether it's a charity or whatever, will succeed, it's
so much more likely to be sustainable.
You're going to attract even greater talent.
(33:32):
You're going to be able to make it last
a really long time and make some big differences
with your product or your service, whatever it is.
So, yes, we have to have different looking
and acting and thinking people throughout the organization.
And every time it's really interesting work from
lots of different industries at the moment.
But there's a particular industry that I'm
working with, and they say, well, we've
(33:54):
got lots of women on the board.
I'm like, that's great.
But everyone's white and actually
what's happening in between.
So let's have a look at your lower
levels and actually your entry level roles.
You've got a fantastic mix of diversity.
It's really reflective of your population.
And we're talking about neurodiversity, race, age,
(34:15):
gender, all of these wonderful things that
make us so wonderfully different.
But what happens is they're
not progressing through the organization.
And that really clicks onto that thing that
you were just saying is that I'm uncomfortable.
I don't know how to be around somebody.
That's very different to me.
And therefore, I'm going to
put invisible barriers in place.
I'm going to have particular policies.
(34:36):
I'm going to have certain questions in recruitment spaces and
things like that that are going to mean that it's
very difficult for this person to be able to move
up, even if they are capable and they have the
potential to grow into that role.
So I think it's a very real challenge,
and it's really hard for people to deny.
They do deny it, don't get me wrong, but it's
(34:57):
a very difficult thing to deny once you've got all
of the facts and the data in front of you
to prove that what we're talking about here is a
very real challenge in the working world. Absolutely.
It's interesting as well, because I think one of my
call to actions would be when we think about our
differences and when we think about equality and diversity and
(35:18):
what that entails and what that includes, we're thinking about
sexuality, we're thinking about race, et cetera.
If you look at how people prioritize those different
groups, I always find that really interesting because the
point you made around our senior leadership team or
our board is really diverse because there's women in
(35:39):
it, but they're all white women.
If you then go and look at some of
those organizations kind of EDI statements or diversity and
inclusion statements and they talk about what they prioritize,
you're traditionally find that race is the last one
because it's the most uncomfortable still, which is so
bizarre because when you think about it, there were
(36:00):
black people in the world before kind of sexuality
was even discussed or accepted.
But black people, Brown people, people of ethnic minorities,
when it comes to dealing with diversity and inclusion,
they are still the lowest on the totem pole
in terms of let's focus on that.
(36:21):
And I think for me, that's a massive call to action.
If it makes you uncomfortable still, that's
the one you need to prioritize first.
Everything else will be easy once you tackle
that, which isn't to reduce any of the
other differences that we have at all.
But it's just to say that statistics show, evidence
show and organizations, websites and diversity statements show that
(36:45):
race is still the issue that people find the
most difficult to deal with, and therefore they put
it at the bottom of their priority list and
it shouldn't be there. Yeah. Wow.
It's so interesting because I often work with a lot
of organizations and they want to just focus on gender.
And I think the reason they want to focus
on that for them because the conversation has been
(37:06):
going on for such a long time, it's a
lot less uncomfortable than some of the other conversations.
Then you add LGBTQ plus, that's a little bit more
comfortable because of the flags and the fact that this,
that and the other and the laws and stuff.
And you get further down, and you're so right.
When you get to race, people just shrivel
up into themselves, especially white people, because there's
(37:28):
a lot of shame attached to it.
We're very aware of the colonizations that we did.
We're very aware of how we are now still
benefiting from those in lots of different ways.
Some people are.
Some people aren't, of course, but even those of us
that are aware of it, it's still like, I still
find it uncomfortable, but I know it's really important to
(37:48):
talk about, because if you don't, nothing will ever change.
It will continue to be the same.
I've got one example I just want to share with you.
So it's an old organization I used to work with.
I was leading the DNI project, and
it was all the different workstreams.
And I had to go back to the Exec and
ask for some budget so that we could start doing
some work around learning, around awareness, just around all sorts
(38:10):
of really great events where we could really start to
wake everybody up to the idea that not everybody has
the same experience in life.
And I remember going into the meeting, I
can visualize it exactly now, going into the
boardroom, sitting down, talking to the Executor.
And I knew them quite well.
I was pretty well respected in that company,
and I started talking about some statistics.
(38:34):
So I started off with gender because
I thought, let's ease them in.
Gender is nice and easy.
People like talking about this.
They feel like since the gender pay
gaps come in, it's all sorted.
So obviously there's a hell of a lot more
work to do, but they're way more comfortable.
So I started talking about that, and
they all got involved in the conversation.
They physically like their body language was involved.
The second I pulled up the slide where we
(38:57):
were talking about race and we were talking about
the visibility throughout the different layers of the organization,
and I was trying to highlight that there's not
representation throughout, and clearly there's a reason.
And their body language completely
just went in on themselves.
They sat back, their shoulders sloped.
Everyone was really quiet.
And it's so interesting.
(39:18):
If people are finding things
comfortable, we're not moving forward. We all know that.
I'm a learning professional.
If we are in our comfort zones,
we are learning the bare minimum.
We're not empowering ourselves to really push forward.
If we take ourselves so far out of
our comfort zone, it might be too far.
So there's like a sweet spot in the middle where
(39:39):
we can gently nudge people to have these conversations.
And that's a big part of the work
that I do with my clients is create
those spaces where those conversations can be had.
But it was just really
interesting when you're saying that.
And I think representation is so important in
different careers, in different industries, at senior levels.
(40:00):
And as soon as people start to realize that, I think
we'll be able to really snowball this and move forward.
But there's so much work to do.
But yeah, that uncomfortable piece is essential.
It is definitely one of the things I'd love
to get from you just because I think one
of the reasons that people like this podcast is
that they get some really helpful tips.
And there's definitely been a
(40:20):
couple that have come through.
But I'd love to know if there's any advice
you would give to a younger woman coming into
the working world and how can they stay true
to themselves when they're being told whether it's consciously
or unconsciously to behave in a slightly different way?
So really challenging one, because I feel like
(40:42):
as a woman in particular, when you're entering
your profession or your career, there is always
that concern of rocking the boat.
And I think the concern is valid.
I always think it's good to be self aware and to be
kind and to add value in this space that you're in.
But I also think that women's intuition isn't a myth.
(41:03):
If it feels uncomfortable, it feels unsafe, or it feels
contrary to your belief system and to what drives you
and gives you purpose, then it's not for you.
And I think one of the things that this generation
have that is a massive luxury that I didn't have
growing up is social media and the ease of travel.
(41:23):
There are so many different careers out there
and different things that you can do.
And I say this again and again to people is
spend the time identifying what genuinely makes your soul sing.
It sounds romantic, but it's true.
And I'm only doing that now at the age of 38.
But don't get involved in a cattle race that
doesn't serve you, find what suits you, find what
(41:47):
drives you and find what you enjoy, and then
work out how to make money from it.
And I heard a millionaire say that
a while back, but it's so true.
I wish I had done that and I wish someone had told
me to do that, but that would be my biggest tip is
take the time to identify what it is that's right for you
and then really focus on how you're going to get that.
Yeah. Wow.
That idea of the listening to
(42:09):
your intuition into your gut.
There's definitely been situations where I haven't
done that and it's ended really badly.
I was only there for a few months.
I had one role where I was in a very senior position.
I was an employee at the time, and I
had been warned off the interview by a couple
of my HR friends who were in different industries,
(42:32):
but they'd heard about the MD of this company.
And they were like, don't do it.
Trust me, you regret it.
And I was like, It's fine, I can handle it. I'm tough.
So I went to the interview and it was just
I mean, there were red flags, there were sirens.
It was so obvious that I shouldn't have gone there,
but I just convinced myself that it was okay.
(42:53):
I pushed that feeling down.
And one of the questions that I was asking, which
I can guarantee hardly any men have ever been asked,
this question was, okay, so are you in a relationship?
And I think I was about 29 at the time.
I was like, no, I'm not in a relationship.
And he was like, right?
Because I need someone that's very committed to this.
And I was like, that's fine.
He's like, but you're about to turn 30.
(43:14):
Are you going to have children soon?
Because I need to know, literally, those
were exactly the words that he used.
And I remember feeling really angry at
the time, but just saying, no, I'm
not planning on having children anytime soon.
I'm very committed to my career at the moment.
Yada, yada, yada.
And I left and I did get the
(43:35):
job and I worked there for five months.
And it made me so ill that I had no
choice but to leave, not just mentally or but physically.
I was constantly unwell because of the ridiculous pressure
that person is putting on me and just the
disgusting culture and the way in which they disregarded
(43:57):
the human beings in their business.
Sadly, it is still a thriving business.
But I do think that that person
has moved away from that role.
I think the shareholders had to remove them.
But yeah, listen to your intuition.
Probably the best piece of advice.
I wish someone had said that to me when I was about 21.
Speaking about 21, what do you wish you knew when you
(44:20):
were 21 that you know now that could have helped you
to be really true to yourself throughout your career?
There's a lot that I didn't know when I was to anyone.
I'm not sure if any of them.
Yeah, I don't know if there's anything that
I wish I knew that would have necessarily
changed the direction of my career.
I think it's more things that
(44:41):
I'd have liked to know earlier.
I think going all the way back to a
secondary school for me, I had an incident with
maths teacher at the time who hated me.
And I went to a brilliant school in Victoria loved it.
She hated me, basically.
I was in the top set for
maths, and that really bothered her.
(45:03):
I was also the girl that didn't stand for
teachers calling their students stupid or just being nasty.
And she was very nasty and she did it at every lesson.
And I'd always stand up to her.
So I'd always get sent to the deputy heads office and
one day another girl in the class had a fountain pen.
So back in the day we used to use
these amazing Lammy fountain pens and she was flicking
(45:25):
her ink at the back of the teacher's dress.
And by the time the lesson had finished, the
teacher's dress was basically a Dalmatian design and it
had originally been like a beige dress.
And she found out about it after the lesson.
No one told her and she found out when she went to
the staff room and she blamed it on me and I didn't
(45:45):
even own a fountain pen, she blamed it on me.
And basically because I've been sent to the Deputy heads
office so often, she essentially said, now she's flicking in
on me, I can't have her in my class anymore.
Now, bearing in mind I was only ever sent to the
Deputy heads office for challenging her on her rudeness to her
students and the deputy had never told me off.
(46:06):
She just always sent me back to say sorry,
but I was moved down a set because this
teacher essentially refused to work with me anymore.
And that meant that I could only sit the intermediate paper for
maths, which meant I could only achieve a B grade instead of
an A, which is what I would have needed to go on
to be a math teacher, which is what I wanted to do
before kind of when I started my career.
(46:28):
It turned out that actually you can't do your
A levels if you can't do a math level
with a B grade at math GCSE.
And I think that's what I would have liked
to know is just that awareness a bit early
on around the decisions that individuals make and the
impact that that can have on your path.
I have no regrets about not being
a math teacher anymore because doing math
(46:50):
homework with my daughter is torture.
It's just about being given the choice.
And I think for me that's the only thing.
But I think for other people it's just
about having that awareness early on, being aware
of what you are entitled to and it's
not looking at entitled to as in entitlement.
It's about actually what is everyone else given access
(47:11):
to that I should also be given access to
and doing everything you can to get that access.
I think that's the biggest thing for me.
This also comes back to one of the earlier
comments you made about standing at the top of
the mountain and lifting other women up.
That teacher did not do that. Interestingly.
That teacher could have been the reason that you
(47:34):
gave up on yourself, but fortunately you didn't.
I had a teacher.
I'm not going to mention their name.
They still live in my hometown.
Actually, I had a teacher that hated me
because mine was a little bit different.
I wasn't calling her out, I was just a bit naughty.
So I kind of got where she didn't like
me, but I was naughty because I was misunderstood.
(47:57):
And the teachers that took the time to understand me really
made a difference in the way that I work now.
They made a difference in the way
that I run my business, even.
But this teacher, Interestingly, I went to
College, dropped out and started working.
And I was working in a bakery when I was about 17.
And at the time, I didn't really
know what I wanted to do.
I kind of wanted to go back to College.
(48:18):
And this teacher had walked in.
So this teacher had sent me out every class
I had in year 1011 of this particular subject.
This teacher had kicked me out.
So I basically learned nothing at all about
this subject and had just gone and probably
smoked on the playground or done something naughty
because I was quite naughty.
But she came into this bakery that I
(48:39):
was working at, and it was just cringe.
I don't know if you've ever had to serve
someone you really don't like in the service industry,
whether it's restaurant or whatever, but I went and
served her and had my head down.
I felt really ashamed of myself.
Not that there was anything wrong with doing that
job, but just that she sent me and I
wasn't at College or 6th form like everyone else.
(49:00):
Anyway, as she left this bakery, she
took the time to turn around.
This is somebody who molds young minds.
She took the time to turn around and say, I
knew you wouldn't amount to anything and then walk out.
Now, that was a very nasty, awful thing to say.
But it was the exact kick of the ask
that I needed to go back to College.
(49:22):
So I thank her for that.
Maybe I should say her name, actually, because a lot of
my success now is because of the way she treated me.
But I do think that there is
something in helping other women up.
When women push other women down, it's ten times
worse than if men are not helping women.
So we have to be able to lift each other
up, and we have to know and have that abundance
(49:42):
mindset that there's plenty of work out there.
There's plenty of space for all of us to be
ourselves so we don't have to keep pushing people down.
Thank you so much for taking this time.
There's been some really good things for me
to think about and reflect on, and hopefully
the same for our listeners as well.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Be lovely. Thanks. See you soon.
(50:05):
Take care.
That's it.
That's the end of this episode, and what a few
fantastic things for us to take away, a few things
for us to think about, and of course, some reflection,
perhaps, that we can do on ourselves as well.
(50:27):
I think it's really important that we support
each other as women and not nonbinary people,
especially in careers, where it's very male dominated
really great things that we've learned today.
And I look forward to seeing you on the next one.
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