We have a very special episode for you this week, because we have partnered with the incredible Laura Cruise who runs an amazing coaching business and helps professional women as The Dream Transition Mentor.
In this episode our founder and director Zoe Holland chats with Laura about their business friendship, how finding your people will help your business to succeed and everything about running your own business for 2 years as a woman.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
We have a very, very special podcast today
because we have actually partnered with Laura Cruise,
who is the dream transition mentor.
So we have a really great conversation for you today
where myself and Laura are going to talk about all
of the different aspects of owning and running your own
organization, but also some of the different aspects of what
(00:29):
it's like to support each other and what's really helped
us to become successful throughout our roles.
Without further Ado, grab a cup of
kickback and have a little listen.
We should just crack on.
I guess we should. This is weird.
(00:50):
We're doing a dual episode with me,
Laura Cruise and me, Zoe Holland.
I've never done this before.
We're actually in the same room recording and trying to
get the laptop to pick up both of our voices. Oh, yeah.
This is the second laptop as well.
Clearly, I'm very loud.
It likes my voice. Yeah.
(01:11):
And I'm quite timid because it wasn't picking mine
up at all, which is not how I think
any of my clients would describe me.
Definitely not. No. So weird.
So what's interesting about this is we are going
to put this out both on the Audio Mine
podcast and also on the Zing Learning podcast.
Yeah, for me, definitely.
(01:31):
This is the first time I've done a Jewel podcast.
But you and I have known each other for
I want to say is it almost two years. Almost two years.
That's so mad.
So we got introduced by a good friend of ours, Jim
Farron, who big shout out to him because he's incredible.
(01:52):
And he just said, you two are going
to get on like a house on fire.
You've both set up your businesses at a similar time.
Eg during Covet, who does that?
And he was right.
He was right because it's such
a weird situation for us.
So we just started getting on really well, virtually,
(02:14):
obviously, because Covet and then we met up probably
after about a year maybe, or whenever.
It was definitely hot where we met up.
I think it was about this time last year.
We met up in Vistas and we met.
We drove and met and had lunch. Yeah.
Which is really nice.
It was the first time we'd actually
seen it to the face to face.
Where are you going again?
(02:35):
To meet some birds that you've met online.
I think people thought we were a bit mad.
And I was saying, who is saying this to the other day?
I can't remember.
But I was saying that every time I felt
like giving up in that first year, I'd call
you like you were the person that I'd be
(02:55):
like, oh, I'm finding this really difficult.
Like I'm not making any money.
Everything is really hard.
And you would talk me around and remind me
of why I was doing this and that's it.
I was explaining to them why we were coming
away and who you were and how I things
like that because people just find it really odd
that up until that time we never met.
(03:17):
And actually this is what the third
time we're in an Airbnb random.
We met through our mutual friend Jim.
And I remember when we had our first call, he basically
said that you were going to go out on your own
and he felt that we would get on really well.
And I remember I just got married.
So it was two days after I got married that we
(03:38):
did our first call and it was literally just as I
had that weird thing where I went out on my own,
but I was kind of furloughed and it was the pandemic
and it was really strange and bizarre.
So I consider that I didn't
really go out until the August.
I kind of feel like we're really on a part
in terms of our kind of duration of the business.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, we're really kind of in tune with starting out.
(04:01):
So we started just having chats,
didn't we, about stuff and business.
And I was cheating you up when you're
a bit fed up and vice versa.
And then you did my program with me. Yes.
Follow your dreams.
Laura Cruise coaching big shout out
to follow because that was brilliant.
(04:22):
That helped me so much.
And actually you're my coach as well now.
So you're my professional coach.
And we've also agreed to be each of us
accountability buddies with business strategies and stuff like that.
So it's just evolved so much.
But I don't know if you remember right at
the start when we were having those first discussions,
(04:43):
the sort of things that we were talking about
were stuff we had no clue about.
And now it's stuff we know just because it's
all trial and error and things like that.
And I think by this point I was getting rid
of my first business adviser because they were useless.
And then I managed to get another one that was amazing.
(05:03):
And it was through this
amazing free enterprising for London.
I just remember just having no clue about
anything at all, like not a clue.
And I was saying to someone the other day,
if I'd have known half of what I know
now, I wouldn't have set the business up. Really?
Yeah, because I didn't know that. Yeah.
It was so much bigger than I realized.
(05:26):
I've just learned so much.
If I'd have really thought about it, if I'd have really
gone really methodical and had a strategy before I set the
business up and this and the other you mean if you'd
had like a method to follow, like I've got maybe you
might have had someone to help me.
But I think because I kind of just was so
fed up with working full time and just not feeling
(05:48):
like I was making a difference at all.
And then I was just like, what am I doing.
And also the freedom thing was a massive part.
You mean the forest freedom flow, fulfillment and fun?
Yes, exactly correct.
This is how we talk to each
other, by the way, all the time.
Yeah, no, I did.
And I think I talk to you about this when
(06:08):
we first met and especially when you were trying to
help me find my purpose and all of those sorts
of things, and especially more recently in the coaching wherein
I'm trying to understand where my vision is in business.
And ultimately, that freedom thing
comes up so many times.
So for me, it was really important.
But if I'd have known it was going to take me
(06:32):
as long as it did to make some money, if I'd
have known that, I would have to deal with rejection a
lot more than I realized, I might not have done it.
I don't regret it.
But I think you need to be
a little bit prepared to do this.
But you also need to feel it out.
There's so many people out there saying, oh, this is
going to happen with your business and this and this.
And ultimately it's just going to
(06:52):
be whatever direction you go in.
It's a very personalized thing.
I think that's so interesting because from the outside,
we'll explain why we're together in a minute.
But from the outside, when we're talking
through your numbers and your success, I
think you have been successful really quickly.
And remember that most businesses don't
turn profit for three years.
They just don't.
(07:13):
I know we're talking mainly bricks and mortar
businesses, and obviously our businesses don't have those
expenses associated with bricks and mortar.
But most businesses don't turn
a profit for three years.
And I think your growth has been fantastic.
Yeah, well, we've just been looking
at the numbers, haven't we?
It's 140% year on year, which I just went incredible.
(07:34):
And you're so right.
But you know me and anyone that does
know me will know I'm exceptionally impatient.
So for me, taking six months to make
any real money was extremely long for me.
Well, yeah. Well, bloody good job.
You did make some money.
Otherwise, would you have given up?
No, I wouldn't have given up. No.
(07:56):
I think it's really interesting because I was talking
to somebody, I can't remember who it was.
And I was saying that I have never once
regretted setting up on my own, leaving corporate to
work for myself, freelance entrepreneur, whatever the word is
you want to say, just work for myself.
(08:17):
I don't really like those kind of
Pruner titles, so just work for myself.
Don't get me started on one printer.
I would never once regretted stepping
out and going on my own.
But what's really interesting, to give you a bit
of context about Zoe and me, and we're going
to put this out on both of our podcasts.
We need to explain I work with individual clients, do
(08:40):
corporate work, and you might say, oh, no, I thought
you just said that you wanted to leave corporate.
Well, I actually like doing corporate
because I like doing the facilitation.
I like doing leadership development.
I like doing kind of exec coaching, but
I like doing it on my terms.
When I choose with the clients
that I choose the corporate clients.
I don't want to work full time for
somebody and have some of the things that
(09:01):
you associate with that, which is the politics,
the hours, the deadlines being tied to that.
We're away now. It's Monday.
We're recording this, and we're on an
away overnighter in Margate for places.
So that's what I do.
But I mainly work with individuals rather than
(09:24):
business, because that's where my passion is.
My absolute passion is helping women to realize that
they can achieve the things they want to achieve.
They can pursue their dream.
I firmly believe that in order to get the
four FS in your life for freedom, flow, fulfillment
and fun, you have to work for yourself, because
then nobody's telling you what to do.
You decide.
You choose your freedom, you
(09:45):
decide what that looks like.
That's really important to me.
But Zoe does something really different.
Yes, but there's some close connections. Right.
And this is the idea of that fulfillment is
really important and doing something really meaningful, I think
not just for myself, but I've been really lucky
because I worked in HR and learning and development
for years and years and lots of different industries,
(10:08):
and I got to watch people develop.
And I really enjoyed that.
And I was talking to somebody about
this recently saying that I felt like
that was really meaningful work for me.
But then when I realized that actually I wanted to
step more into the diversity, equity and inclusion space, which
is basically just how can we make sure that our
(10:28):
careers and our study and all of the opportunities in
the work space are equitable and fair for every single
person, regardless of their background?
Then all of a sudden I was like, wow, yeah, okay.
That stuff was meaningful before that,
leadership development stuff and everything. And it is.
But for me, this is so much more meaningful.
And even when I'm exacerbated at the end of
(10:50):
the day, we facilitate, we coach, we develop content,
we project management, we do Di, audit and consultancy.
All of the wonderful things that you would expect
to help kind of small to medium businesses and
starts and scale ups to know how to be
more inclusive and to educate and raise awareness and
(11:11):
start some really great conversations to create that space
and create the space for diversity as well.
That's really, really important.
And so that's something that just really excites me.
So even when I'm having a really hard day or I've
had a really tough conversation inside or outside of work, and
this is the thing probably with yours as well.
(11:32):
You never take any time off because I can be out
in a pub with some friends, and I'll meet someone else's
friend and they'll be like, what do you do?
And I'll tell them they're really interested.
So we always end up that conversation.
It's great because I love it.
But you never switch off.
But it's different, right.
Because when you work for somebody else,
you do want to switch off.
Yeah, it's yours and you enjoy it. You don't mind it.
(11:52):
Oh, yeah.
Because it doesn't feel like work.
But also, you and I have
this real passion to help people.
We've got this real drive to want to create for you.
It's for the women and for the confidence
and for them to really start to reach
their potential and even discover that their potential
maybe is wider than they thought.
For me, it's about that.
(12:13):
How can I create enough curiosity in the minds
of the managing directors and the senior leadership teams
and the managers, et cetera, for them to go,
oh, I need to look out for all of
these different biases or different ways in which I
might be preventing representation from happening and inclusivity.
(12:33):
So that really drives me.
But what's interesting about that, when we've both been
talking is when we both started out, we were
quite vague in what we were doing.
We weren't really niche down and clear
about what we wanted to do.
And like you say, you came to that.
That's an area that you were interested in anyway.
But that's the area that you ultimately
decide to really focus on with Zing.
And for me, I was like, yeah, a bit
(12:56):
of confidence, a bit of this on the other.
But ultimately it is about helping women to go,
yes, I can leave paid employment and the stability.
And I'm doing a quotes because I
don't think the stability is quite what
it might have been before the pandemic.
But helping women to go, yes, I can do that.
I've got it in me.
I've got the self belief, the self confidence,
(13:18):
the self assurance, the drive, the determination.
I know why I want to do it.
I know what I want to get from it.
I'm ready to push myself forward, but I
need somebody to talk it through with.
I need somebody to guide me, coach and mentor
me so that I'm ready to go for it. Yeah.
It's interesting with the work that you do
as well, because you've got and I know
that we use imposter syndrome a lot.
Like, I know it gets expanded about quite a lot, but
(13:41):
literally it is there a lot more for women than it
is for men and obviously for non binary people as well.
But there's also the
intersectionality piece around that.
But the thing is these women have got
to be at a certain point where they
feel like, actually, maybe I can do this.
So it's almost like they need to up their confidence level
even at 1% before they can even think, well, who do
(14:04):
I go to to help me go even further again?
I was talking on a podcast about this recently about the
idea of women lifting women and creating space for women to
get bigger and better in their careers or find more purpose
in their lives in lots of different ways.
And I think more women that are doing this, the
(14:25):
more likely you are going to be able to help
them on that next part, because if we can slowly
bring them up and let them realize, you know what,
you can, you might be able to do this.
You might be able to go way bigger than
you're thinking or it might even be that big.
But you want to make a shift in your life in some way.
You need someone I think you need that support
network, and you need somebody who knows how to
tap into that to be able to do that.
(14:47):
And I classed myself as a very confident person.
I tasked myself.
I haven't had any sort of syndrome for a long time.
I just knocked that out myself over the
years, I guess, from coaching and various different
things that I had access to, fortunately.
But I still massively benefited from the two
different areas that you've helped to move.
So that program that we did last January. Yeah.
(15:12):
In lockdown, one of the lockdowns and
now with the business coaching, because it's
not necessarily my confidence in myself.
It's when I put myself out there for the business.
And I'm not going to say posture syndrome because
I don't want to attach that to myself anymore.
I'm trying to move away from that.
But there is a level of confidence when you're
(15:35):
putting yourself out there and you're charging clients for
a service compared to when you're an employee and
you were delivering that service as an employee. Yeah.
So it's a completely different mindset.
And I think what your coaching is helping me
with at the moment is to shift my mindset
on that and to think much bigger and have
(15:55):
much more of a vision, because I've been doing
some really good things with the business and we've
got some really great ways we're moving forward.
But I never really understood how can I make it bigger?
How can I really reach as many people as possible
so we can make as big an impact as possible?
And you've really helped me to go, let's remove some of
these Blinders a little bit that you put on your eyes
(16:15):
because you're told to just kind of go down this route.
And it just makes such a difference,
not just in the strategy aspect.
And obviously that's what we're here to do
today on our little away day in Margate.
But it's that concept of being able to talk articulately
with potential clients and customers and things like that, but
(16:38):
also really deliver an even better service because I have
very good clarity on what it is, the value that
I offer clients, the purpose of what we're trying to
do with the work and actually what they can then
give back to society through the work that we're doing
with them, that just really excites me.
That is the sort of stuff that makes
(16:59):
me think it's meaningful, what we're doing great.
We've got a business that's wonderful.
But actually, ultimately we're making
a difference in people's lives.
And that is just the most impressive
thing in the world to me anyway.
Certainly feel that way. No, for sure.
So somebody I worked with last year, she said to
me, and I've got a little sound bite of it.
(17:19):
I need to put that out around.
She said that I changed her life because I gave
her the she came to a workshop that I did.
And by what I said to her, she realized that
she should stop waiting and just do the things that
she wanted to do and free herself from.
And it was to leave corporate and to
go into her business with her partner.
(17:41):
She was running herself ragged, working
full time and then doing that
weekend and just being totally exhausted.
And she just needed the push to go, you can do it.
It's okay. You can leave.
And that's what she did. I didn't tell her what to do.
That's what she wanted to do. Yeah.
But she just needed somebody outside of
like family, partner, friends, just to say,
(18:02):
you know what, you could do that.
Why aren't you doing that?
And she's just like loving life ever since,
because now she has the freedom that she
always wanted that she couldn't get before.
I was just going to say when we were talking about
the ways that I've helped you in those two ways that
(18:22):
you just said for me, the biggest barrier that women and
men, I mean, I principally work with women.
That isn't to say I don't work
with men, but my focus is women.
Is that because we don't quite know how to get there?
Well, we think it's one jump
from employed to self employed.
It's salary to free for no salary.
(18:44):
It's having paid holiday and maybe a company car to
nothing because they can't work out how to do that.
They don't do it.
They haven't got the vision to see
that they could transition into that.
That's why I described myself, to find
myself as a dream transition mentor, because
you're not going from right.
(19:05):
Today I'm doing this, and tomorrow I'm
going to do something totally different.
But I've done nothing to prepare myself for that.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
You incrementally, grow, learn, develop,
reflect, change, growing confidence.
Even if you were confident before,
it's a different confidence when you're
certainly putting yourself out of business. Right.
So you have to be quite different.
(19:27):
And I was saying to you, some of the stuff
that I brought for this strategy that we're doing today.
I'm looking back and it was from what I wanted
2020 to look like, obviously not knowing the pandella was
coming, I don't think I'd even heard the word pandemic.
But anyway, really interesting.
So a lot of the things that I wrote down that
I wanted to do, I've done a lot of the things
(19:47):
that you'd be pleased to know because it's 2022, so you'll
be pleased to know that I did those.
But some of the things I wrote down about wanting
to feel more at the center of my business, more
confident, more strategic, et cetera, I've done that.
So when I look back at that, I think,
wow, I was really unsure now, I'm sure. Yeah.
(20:08):
So now I get to the different
now I get to another level.
I just keep moving up.
New level, new devil, right.
So you just keep progressing and learning as you go.
Yeah.
You know what I'm just thinking of?
I'm thinking because back in 2020, obviously, was
when I started my business as well.
And I think I've said this to you before,
(20:28):
but I remember on the 1 September, which is
when I officially stopped working for my last company,
I officially started working for my new one.
I opened my computer, stretched my arms out, put my fingers
on the keyboard and just said, how do I do?
Yeah, exactly what do I do?
Like, I've got to build a business from nothing.
(20:49):
And I think actually, if I'd have had you because we
kind of chatted, but we were still in the midst of
trying to figure out how we would do it. Yeah.
If I'd have had your transition work, I think
it would have made it so much smoother.
I probably wouldn't have had so many
mini breakdowns in that first year.
(21:10):
Like all of that stress and fear of not
making any money and that stress of not knowing
if what I was doing was the right thing.
There's so much trial and error, isn't
there in the first couple days.
But that idea that you look back and you think
about how far you've come from 2021 in 2022 is
huge and the fact we've just been looking at so
(21:32):
this is the middle of the day. We're recording this.
We've already done a few hours this morning,
we've got a few more hours this afternoon.
But we've already come quite far in
our thinking and we've actually started to
understand what we're trying to push forward.
And I think it's been really nice to have that
time to reflect and see how far we've come. Yes.
But I know I said that you have supported
(21:54):
me with those two different things, but actually the
other thing we know is that day to day
stuff and the fact that we just get it.
So there's a lot of people in our lives
that are in full time employment and they're very
happy doing that but they don't understand what it
means to set up your own business.
So they don't understand when you can't go
(22:14):
to something because you're working at the time.
They're not working out or that you were flush the
month before, but the next month you need to be
a little bit more kind of reserved with your cash
and all of that sort of stuff.
They also don't seem to incentive.
If you say you've landed a big
contract, they're like, wow, that's amazing.
I think that just kind of happened.
I'm like, no, now the real work starts to
(22:36):
do all of that work for that contract.
But it's just been really interesting to
have somebody that just gets it.
And we're very lucky.
Like both of our partners just they're very supportive.
Yeah.
They've always been our biggest cheerleaders and
stuff like that, which is great.
I'm also really lucky because my partner also
had their own business a few years ago.
(22:58):
So they really do understand all the nuances
of all the stresses and things like that.
But excuse the cough.
There is something really special.
Maybe it's the woman thing.
Maybe it's the woman's support thing, because we get all
of that other stuff as well that perhaps our partners
don't necessarily get and the lack of confidence that we
(23:20):
might feel from time to time because we've had a
bit of a knock or we've struggled with being able
to position ourselves and we get that kind of envy.
And we may see someone that's doing what
we're doing, and we think they're doing it
on such a much bigger scale.
But one of the biggest lessons I've had
is to stop comparing stuff to other people. Yes.
Understand your competitors.
(23:41):
That's really important.
But if you know that what you're offering is
big value and you know that it's making a
difference, just focus on making that even better, even
better value for people and really making sure the
right people are seeing it.
And a big part of that is having that support network.
That's been huge.
Yeah, huge.
And I think we were talking about this yesterday.
(24:02):
Weren't we just about saying that even when
you have your own business, you obviously don't
operate when you work for somebody else.
There's different departments deal with everything.
Right?
Hr, there is finance, there's sales, marketing,
whether there's all these different people.
When you work for yourself, it is just you, you
(24:23):
have to be all things to all people at the
beginning, certainly before you get some money behind you, then
you can start paying people to help you.
But you've got to be all things to all people.
And then there are things that you
need on associated costs because you're presenting
yourself as a credible business.
And it's hard for people who don't run their
(24:45):
own business to kind of understand what you're doing.
I don't know whether it sometimes feels a
bit like showy when you're doing stuff, but
it's like, hey, this is my business.
I've got podcasts, I'm writing a
book, I'm having professional photo shoots.
I'm getting PR.
I'm doing all these things.
This is me, this is me, this is who I am.
(25:05):
And it's sometimes hard to find
the people that understand that. Do you know what?
And I know I've banged on a little bit about the
female thing, but I do wonder whether there is some sort
of unconscious mindset that women are told to be small.
And if we're shouting about all of these
amazing things that we're doing, then that's a
(25:27):
bit uncovered and it's not very attractive.
And all of those things that were
supposed to be a bit more timid.
I don't feel like I hear male
business owners talking the same way.
No, because I feel exactly the same way sometimes I'm
really cringy when people say they've watched my if it's
a friend or a family member or something, say they've
watched a video of mine or listen to a podcast.
(25:47):
And I'm like, oh, how was it?
When actually, I know it's bloody good.
Like, I know it's good because
my clients really like it.
So surprised at that. I found that.
And I thought you would be too.
I think I'm getting there, but it's really interesting.
It took me a really long time to put myself out
there on social media, because I'm not a social media person.
I don't really have social media for myself.
(26:08):
Obviously, I have it for the business.
I need to make sure that people are seeing
the stuff that we're doing and they're getting the
helpful resources that we're putting out there.
And hopefully it's starting
some really good conversations.
But it was only maybe a year, not even maybe
like nine months ago, that I was just like, I
know I've got to put myself out there because ultimately
I am the expert, so I am the credibility.
(26:30):
And when you're working with the type of work
that we're doing, whether it's coaching or whether it's
Di training, whatever it is, people need to believe
that you know what you're talking about.
And so you have the evidence
that you have to show that.
And of course you can do all sort of demos
and stuff with future clients and what have you.
But if you're giving people little snippets
(26:51):
of what you're going to be like
in a facilitated workshop or whatever, they're
going to realize that you have credibility.
And credibility is hands down, the most
important part of my industry, because there's
just so many Cowboys out there doing
this, and they're taking money off people.
They're not really caring.
They're just checking out some two, three
(27:12):
hour session or some elearning or something,
and it's making no difference at all.
It's just ticking a box.
And that was a massive part of my purpose was
that I genuinely wanted to make a social impact.
Okay, I'm working with organizations, but
ultimately they're employing local people, they're
working with their local communities.
So you're going to have a social impact
(27:34):
when people have more of a social conscience.
And if I can nurture that and grow
that a little bit, then that's really important.
But the videos being in the podcast and all
of that sort of stuff, it really took me
a moment and it's not a lack of confidence.
It really took me out of my comfort zone because
I'm just not used to doing it and it's interesting.
(27:54):
So this morning when we got here, when we were
just sitting down, I did Alive in my Facebook group
and I just said, oh, I need to do Alive.
I normally do at ten.
It's five plus and I was late. I need to do it.
And I just started talking and then I finished and
I was doing a little tour of the house already
and you saw when I could never do that.
So interesting, isn't it?
These things, but I'm so past that now.
(28:15):
I was like that in 2019.
When I first started out, I couldn't do
like a live on Facebook or Instagram. I was so worried.
Now I don't care.
Just super download it.
Yeah, you were.
It was really nice to listen to, actually.
It's definitely something I could work towards.
It's really funny because if you put me in an exec
(28:36):
space or with the board or I'm having to pitch and
ask for money and I'm getting lots of negativity or kind
of closed mindset to come back to me, I'm fine.
I can do that. That's easy.
If you put me in a facilitated workshop
and I'm coaching people and facilitating and have
some really great discussions right in my element.
But point a camera at me or ask me
(28:59):
to talk to no one, that's where I really
have to push myself out of my comfort zone.
I think there's something about the
type of work that we do.
We get lots of energy from
the people that we're working with.
So there is something around knowing that I can
push all of that energy out there and it
makes a difference to the person's learning environment.
(29:20):
So I've had sessions recently.
Some of them have only been two hour sessions, but I've had
a couple in a day because one of my clients is kind
of ramped up their work a little bit and they're only 4
hours and I've got an hour or two in between.
So I'm doing various other bits of work, but I am
pushing myself so hard in each of those 2 hours.
I am shattered by today.
(29:40):
But the outcome from the learners, the feedback and
the way in which they're engaging in the conversations
that some of them are a bit contentious, some
of them can be a little bit triggering because
the type of work that I do is phenomenal.
So I know that even though I'm shattered after doing
a couple of those 2 hours in each day.
(30:01):
The difference it makes to their learning experience.
It's worth all of that energy.
But I can do it because they're coming back to
me if you've got no one in front of me.
I really struggle.
I really do.
Well, I'm fine on video now, but if you take
photos of me, if you take with professional photographer.
I just don't like that I'm so uncomfortable.
(30:24):
I'm like really cringy.
I just find it quite difficult.
It's interesting what you said about we were
talking about closed mindset and growth mindset and
we were talking about this yesterday.
Even though yesterday was our hang out,
we ended up talking about business.
You and I are so in that space of
growth mindset and pushing forward and believing in yourself
and constant development learning, opening up yourself to new
(30:51):
ideas, all that sort of thing.
And we're both so into that.
And sometimes that's hard with others.
That's why it's so important to
have like a business friendship.
So I've got an accountability buddy in
Argentina who I speak to every Wednesday.
He's brilliant.
But for you and I, because we're in the
UK, there's that real support thing that matters. Yeah.
(31:15):
And I just find it so great because I think I
know, like the other day you thought you got a call
about some potential work, which is massive, and you sent me
a text back, oh my God, I'm so excited.
And I get that if you said that to
somebody who's not like, okay, don't really get it.
We're really excited for each other
and we're excited and we're supportive.
(31:40):
But the other thing is we recommend but we
recommend because we both value each other's work. Yeah.
And we know how good the other one is. Yeah.
It's not us being Echo Chamber
or us thinking, oh, nepotism.
We just know it genuinely will
make a difference to somebody.
And I think that there's
something really powerful in that.
(32:00):
And that is really funny, you mentioned that particular piece
of work, because whenever I get something really exciting happen
or even sometimes if something's gone not so great and
I'm feeling a bit sad, there are three people at
the top of my WhatsApp that are message.
There's my mom, my partner, and you. Oh, really?
Because you're the person that gets
(32:21):
it from a business sense.
And you are hugely invested in my
business and my personal success, obviously, my
partner is hugely invest in it.
And of course, my mom as well.
And also you've probably the three of you.
I've had some others, of course.
But the three of you have been my biggest support as
you've been there picking up the pieces when it's not been
going so well, but also celebrating any of our wins.
(32:43):
And we went out for dinner and
drinks at the start of the year. Do you remember?
And we had a few drinks in
Kingscross, probably a few too many.
My husband thought I'd been murdered. Yes.
And we were just celebrating each other.
It didn't start off like that.
We were just like, oh, let's catch up
(33:04):
and talk about how the business is doing.
And we just haven't really reflected on anything.
And then we were talking about it, we just got
really pissed and went, oh, actually, we've done really well.
I think it's before Christmas.
I think it's October, probably just after a
year of fruit to us, wasn't it?
So then, if you think about where
we are now, we're in Margate, which
(33:24):
you might think is the strange destination.
So I've been coaching Zoe and we were
talking about it's really interesting because I was
talking about some stuff and then I was
like, oh, you need to think about this.
And you were like, oh, that's too much.
It's overwhelming.
I can't need to break that down into smaller things
because I was just talking mentoring rather than coaching.
(33:46):
Anyway, so then I said it would be really
good to actually have some time to actually sit
in the same room and spend together.
Then we said, oh, should we have a little away day?
Because if you work in corporate, you get
like workshops and seminars and stuff like that.
I don't get anything like that.
So we said, oh, yeah, let's do it. Where should we go?
And I said, I want to go to the
beach because I find although we haven't actually walked
(34:07):
on the beach, we've walked alongside it last night,
but I find there's something really therapeutic and really
calming about being by the sea.
So then we were like, Where should we go?
Where should we go? It's not too far.
Anyway, I've always wanted to come to
market and so here we are, market.
We're the most beautiful kind of Scandi style Airbnb.
We only went and met Tracy
Emmanuen yesterday, which is very Margate.
(34:29):
And I went in the Turner Gallery
while I wait for you to arrive.
And today, Olivia Coleman is filming a film on
the seafront and Margate is at a top boy.
And we missed Colin first.
We just gutted about.
But what happens to be Margaret?
Yeah, it's really funny because a load of my friends have
moved to Kent in the last few years from London.
(34:51):
It happens quite a lot, as people will probably know.
So I knew of Margaret, I knew of all
these places, but I didn't really understand them.
When you said, I was like, yeah, sure, I'll go there.
But it's beautiful, like some of the streets.
It's like you're walking down the set of a movie.
It really is. It's stunning.
It's so lovely, but it's been really interesting.
Like you say, we bumped into Tracy Yemen yesterday, but
(35:13):
we've just had this space and this time to do
all the things that we kind of talk about.
But we never make time and space
to do this sort of thing.
So I think already this morning where we started from
where we've got to because we are giving each other
the space and questioning each other and challenging each other
(35:36):
on our numbers and all of these different things.
And I've only cried once this trip, so that's
actually quite good for me, who's a massive crier.
And I haven't cried.
Yes.
So there's a real sense of
camaraderie, but I think there's space.
(35:57):
I've got a beautiful office at the bottom of the garden,
and I love it, but I'm in there on my own.
The place of shows is amazing.
It's open plan. It's beautiful.
It's got a massive table.
We've got flip charts and pens and
many pens, fruit and post it.
And we blew tucked them up to
(36:18):
the windows, hoping it's all off.
But it just has given us the space to really
explore and think about what are we trying to achieve.
And you're right be quite challenging.
And I said to you, I was quite surprised.
I went a bit introvert earlier.
I was a bit like quiet.
And I think it's because I'm scared, because
I've got massive ambitions for my business, but
I still have I wouldn't call it imposter
(36:38):
syndrome, but it's a little bit of fear. Yeah.
But you've got way in high.
You've got to set these targets.
You've got to set these goals.
Otherwise you just drift.
You've got to put it out there and put
it out there with somebody who gets it. Yeah.
And actually challenges too.
And actually one of the challenges that I said
to you, which to anyone that's not running their
own business or is not considering running their own
(37:00):
business, this won't make any sense, really.
It might even sound a little
bit narcissistic, but it's not.
If you don't believe in what you're
doing, you shouldn't be doing it.
And my question to you was, well, if
you don't do the project that we're talking
about, what are you taking away from people?
And then that shifted.
And it's great because we're both coaches, so
(37:22):
we both know the kind of trigger questions
that are going to really make somebody think.
And we can read people quite well.
But that question in itself, actually also then made
me think that if I did decide to give
up for whatever reason or not, that I would.
But if I ever decided to give up, what am
I taking away from the work that I'm doing?
Whether it's my pro Bono work or whether it's
(37:44):
the paid work that I do with clients?
And ultimately, I'm taking away the ability
for them to have those expertly facilitated
conversations where it really shifts mindset.
It can really make a difference to
representation and diversity and inclusion belonging.
Yada, yada, yada.
But if I don't do that anymore, that's one less
(38:06):
expert Dai trainer and auditor and expert in general.
That's that extra person off.
And then there's loads of Cowboys out there and I can't
do that I can't let people do a bad job and
charge all of these companies loads of money, make no difference.
And actually, in some cases, make it
worse because they've seen our D. Ei chain.
(38:28):
It's a load of old rubbish.
We had this terrible person come
and do this terrible thing.
There's no point in investing in it anymore.
And then they carry on doing the same habits and making
the world an even less fair place for other people.
And then the same with you.
And I can only use my example, of
course, but you just set an example.
There is somebody that you said you changed
their life like the work you did.
(38:49):
So you have to think it's almost selflessly if you
take your work away, if you don't lean I hate
leaning, but you don't lean into it and really push
yourself outside of your comfort zone to go.
Maybe I could have this much growth, maybe I could
reach this many different clients, maybe this and this.
If you don't do that, you're actually taken away.
(39:11):
And I think that's a slightly
different mindset to think about.
But yeah, I just thought it was a
really interesting conversation that we had earlier.
And even though it was aimed towards the way
you were feeling about it, it really made me
reflect on the work that I'm doing. Yeah, definitely.
And I think it's interesting because I never think
about giving up because I honestly believe the way
(39:34):
that my business has grown, the way that I've
grown as a business owner, the way it's continuing
to grow, it will only get bigger and better.
And if I give up, I'll never
know what it could have been.
So that's what will keep me going.
Plus, I'm probably unemployable, to
be honest right now.
I can go to Margate on the road on a Sunday
(39:56):
and get pissed and then do stuff on a Monday.
Yeah, nobody wants that.
So how do you find your people then?
Obviously, we got introduced by somebody else.
So if somebody was listening and we're saying you
need to find your people, what would you say?
So I guess it depends what we're talking about.
If you're talking to people that are considering starting
(40:18):
their own business or considering going out on their
own in some way, there's so many different things.
It took me a while, if I'm honest, you were potluck.
Jim clearly knew that both of us would
get on really well and it just happened.
It just clicked.
It hasn't been that way for lots of people.
There were people from before me setting up
the business that I thought were my people.
(40:40):
And then it turned out that they weren't
being very supportive and were actively holding back
different pieces of work and things like that.
So sorry about the door slamming.
Someone having a good old time outside.
But then I learned, oh, wow, there are some
people that are envious or because they don't have
(41:03):
the confidence to go out and do it themselves.
I wouldn't sabotage this too strong word, but
they were holding back from helping out. Yes.
And it's been really interesting because there's one
person in particular that I'm thinking of.
And then later on, maybe six months after they didn't
have to share something, I can't remember what it was.
They then asked me for some advice.
(41:24):
They were like, oh, I'm doing some work with
a client, and they need me to know a
little bit about diversity and inclusion if you've got
anything you can help me with.
So I, of course, helped because I regardless of
how I feel about that person and how they
didn't support me, if the world is going to
have more conversations around diversity and inclusion, I don't
(41:44):
care whether or not I get the work.
I just want those conversations to happen because
ultimately my big aim, my big goal is
to just create a fairer world for everybody.
Now, I know that's a massive ambition, but
if we're working with our networks and we're
able to support in that way and everyone
can upskill and be even better at what
they're doing, then naturally that's going to happen.
So some people from before,
(42:05):
of course, some are popular.
But the other thing is you have to find your people,
and it's going to take a bit of trial and error.
One example I'll give is the places
in which we based our offices.
So for a while we were looking for offices and we were
trying to figure out how can we find a space that we're
going to reinvest the money that our clients are giving to us
(42:28):
in a way that is true to our values.
So it had to go back into somewhere where
the local community was being supported and there was
work being done around diversity and inclusion.
Otherwise, I'm just part of the problem, aren't I?
So I went to lots of different
places, and I'm in Brixton, South London.
So as you can imagine, there's
lots of really vibrant, amazing places.
(42:48):
But a couple of the spaces that I
went to and they're very central bricks and
they're taking up quite a lot of real
estate there, which is massively gentrified anyway.
So lots of original bricks.
And people have had to move out because
they can't afford to live there anymore.
So one of the first questions I asked, I went
to these really swish offices and I was like, oh,
so how do you give back to the local community
(43:09):
and how do you make sure that you're supporting that?
And the person just looked at me
really blankly and they had no idea.
They were like, oh, well, I'll
ask and I'll let you know.
You're clearly not doing anything, are you?
Well, they asked and she was like,
oh, well, we donate to this chat.
I can't even remember what it
was, but it was nothing basically.
(43:30):
And then I went to another one
and they didn't have a clue either.
And then I went to Impact Brixton, which
is the space where our offices are.
We're doing some work with them around divestity and
inclusion for some really great social mobility work.
There's so many social enterprises in there.
Every single person that runs a business from that
space, including the space itself, does some sort of
(43:53):
social impact work, whether it is like myself, where
this is our whole company and this is what
we do, or whether they are a recruitment company
that are really involved in making sure there's better
representation in various different industries or there's this really
great charity called Spiral there, and they do some
really great work with the youth in the area
and how to help them to think bigger about
(44:14):
their careers and all of that sort of stuff.
So for me, that's where I found a lot of
my people, because they have a similar mindset to me.
They want to give back to the local community.
I think figuring out what your values and your
purpose are for yourself personally and then for your
business, which are most likely very aligned, then you'll
(44:35):
know where to go and find your people. Yeah.
And the other thing I was going to
say, because I've been in little memberships and
groups and stuff like that, and I always
prefer the smaller, smaller environments.
You can be in groups that have got like 15,000
people in it's just too much, it's too noisy.
I don't love it.
But when you set up your own business, go out
(45:00):
on your own, whatever you want to call it.
It's a bit like when you start school or start University
or have a baby, you meet people who are doing it,
that thing at the same time that you're doing.
And then you make friends with them.
And then over time you evolve and you work
out that you might have been friends with them
just because they set up a business, but actually
(45:20):
their core values or they were very different to
you personality wise, you didn't match.
Therefore, maybe they're not right for you.
So it is trial and error, but it's trying
to find those ones that really support you and
champion you and help you through the good and
the bad because there will be good and bad.
And I think my network that I've got, I'm really lucky
(45:44):
because I do feel I have that support and I know
lots of people who don't have that at all and would
like to talk business with somebody who don't have that.
So I think, yeah, definitely it's trial
and error, but you've got to put
yourself out there to meet other people.
And like my accountability buddy Sabine, who's fantastic
in Argentina, she just put a call out
saying, I really want a buddy.
(46:05):
And I was like, hey, we just started
chatting and we get to know each other,
but we've been chatting for nearly a year.
I think we started maybe July last
year, so nearly a year and like
hugely supportive, really supportive business relationship.
She's fantastic and I feel really lucky
to have her in a different way.
(46:27):
Do you see what I mean?
I would like to think that at some point I
can meet her in real life, but it's so nice
to have you online and in real life too.
Yeah, Margate is lovely, but it's not Argentina.
Argentina.
And I hadn't really thought about this
until we just had this conversation.
Now, something about being true to your values
(46:51):
and that's when you'll find your people.
Yeah, it's so true, because if I think about all of
the people that I would contact, if I got a fantastic
new client to celebrate, if I had had a bad day,
like maybe a pitch went badly or something like that, or
if I was just exhausted and I just needed somebody to
(47:12):
talk to, like I said, you'd be top of my list.
But also I've got other Di trainers
and we share knowledge as well.
That's the other thing.
So we are hugely invested in the work that we're doing.
And if we find a new technique or a new
model or a new tool or there's something really interesting
in a podcast or something like that, we'll share it
(47:33):
with each other and I think it doesn't just go
for you when you're in your industry.
I've had the same thing.
I was talking to someone saying a few months ago,
I'm starting a podcast and they were like, oh, let
me send you over all of this stuff.
And they're in a very different business to what
I'm in, but they had some experience with podcasts.
They didn't want me to waste loads of time
making the same mistakes they did and vice versa.
(47:54):
I've helped them with other stuff and I
think that there's something really powerful in that.
I have definitely found as a general rule,
that a lot of the female business owners,
we naturally can't help but nurture each other.
I don't know whether it's gender normal, whatever it
is, but then what I found with a lot
of the male business owners that I'm friends with
(48:15):
and have learnt loads from is they'll be much
more transparent in their communication, so they'll be like,
you really need to change that very direct.
So I feel like there's a really nice balance.
I do think you have to and I've got
lots of different age ranges around me as well.
So I've got people that have been running businesses for
(48:35):
like 30 years and they've given me some great advice.
I've got people that are just starting out now and now
I can pass on my knowledge from the last two years.
You've got to just surround yourself with
lots of different people, but people that
have similar values that align to yours.
I think it's just been really beneficial.
(48:56):
I couldn't have done this for the last couple
of years without people around me for sure. Absolutely.
Well, if you think about when you
work you have your colleagues, right?
So when you work for yourself you
need to find your colleagues whatever they
look like whatever industry Walker life whatever.
You just need to find your people who get you yeah,
that are going to celebrate your wins and also some of
(49:18):
the things that your friends and your family that are employed
you will say something that to them will seem really small
but somebody that owns their own business or runs their own
business in whatever way will be like, oh, I know all
of the tears and the sweat and the hard work that
went into that really small thing so I'm going to celebrate
with you the same way that you're celebrating your family might
(49:40):
be like, oh, okay. That's nice.
Do you know how many hours I had? Exactly.
So important.
Loved our chat. Oh, my God.
Literally 49 minutes.
We could have gone on forever.
Yeah, we must put a stop to it because
(50:01):
we've got lunch to eat we've been twelve we've
got lunch to eat and more work to do.
Such a great conversation and hopefully for people listening to
this will be reassured that it's not lonely you don't
have to be no you could be working alone but
you don't have to be lonely no and I do
think that there's a choice element there.
(50:22):
I think you have to choose to not be lonely
doing it yeah, but there's so many people there's so
many networks social media is brilliant for that as well
now but there's so many different places you can go
and find your people and your people will change like
I've got people that I'll only go to once a
year to talk to or people like Laura like you
(50:43):
who will talk quite often so it's just about There
might be some people that will help you right at
that moment in that particular thing but just get lots
of different people and network it's really important.
Definitely.
There you go.
Right back to Margate back to strategy planning.
We have a very, very special podcast today
because we have actually partnered with Laura Cruise,
who is the dream transition mentor.
So we have a really great conversation for you today
where myself and Laura are going to talk about all
of the different aspects of owning and running your own
organization, but also some of the different aspects of what
(00:29):
it's like to support each other and what's really helped
us to become successful throughout our roles.
Without further Ado, grab a cup of
kickback and have a little listen.
We should just crack on.
I guess we should. This is weird.
(00:50):
We're doing a dual episode with me,
Laura Cruise and me, Zoe Holland.
I've never done this before.
We're actually in the same room recording and trying to
get the laptop to pick up both of our voices. Oh, yeah.
This is the second laptop as well.
Clearly, I'm very loud.
It likes my voice. Yeah.
(01:11):
And I'm quite timid because it wasn't picking mine
up at all, which is not how I think
any of my clients would describe me.
Definitely not. No. So weird.
So what's interesting about this is we are going
to put this out both on the Audio Mine
podcast and also on the Zing Learning podcast.
Yeah, for me, definitely.
(01:31):
This is the first time I've done a Jewel podcast.
But you and I have known each other for
I want to say is it almost two years. Almost two years.
That's so mad.
So we got introduced by a good friend of ours, Jim
Farron, who big shout out to him because he's incredible.
(01:52):
And he just said, you two are going
to get on like a house on fire.
You've both set up your businesses at a similar time.
Eg during Covet, who does that?
And he was right.
He was right because it's such
a weird situation for us.
So we just started getting on really well, virtually,
(02:14):
obviously, because Covet and then we met up probably
after about a year maybe, or whenever.
It was definitely hot where we met up.
I think it was about this time last year.
We met up in Vistas and we met.
We drove and met and had lunch. Yeah.
Which is really nice.
It was the first time we'd actually
seen it to the face to face.
Where are you going again?
(02:35):
To meet some birds that you've met online.
I think people thought we were a bit mad.
And I was saying, who is saying this to the other day?
I can't remember.
But I was saying that every time I felt
like giving up in that first year, I'd call
you like you were the person that I'd be
(02:55):
like, oh, I'm finding this really difficult.
Like I'm not making any money.
Everything is really hard.
And you would talk me around and remind me
of why I was doing this and that's it.
I was explaining to them why we were coming
away and who you were and how I things
like that because people just find it really odd
that up until that time we never met.
(03:17):
And actually this is what the third
time we're in an Airbnb random.
We met through our mutual friend Jim.
And I remember when we had our first call, he basically
said that you were going to go out on your own
and he felt that we would get on really well.
And I remember I just got married.
So it was two days after I got married that we
(03:38):
did our first call and it was literally just as I
had that weird thing where I went out on my own,
but I was kind of furloughed and it was the pandemic
and it was really strange and bizarre.
So I consider that I didn't
really go out until the August.
I kind of feel like we're really on a part
in terms of our kind of duration of the business.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, we're really kind of in tune with starting out.
(04:01):
So we started just having chats,
didn't we, about stuff and business.
And I was cheating you up when you're
a bit fed up and vice versa.
And then you did my program with me. Yes.
Follow your dreams.
Laura Cruise coaching big shout out
to follow because that was brilliant.
(04:22):
That helped me so much.
And actually you're my coach as well now.
So you're my professional coach.
And we've also agreed to be each of us
accountability buddies with business strategies and stuff like that.
So it's just evolved so much.
But I don't know if you remember right at
the start when we were having those first discussions,
(04:43):
the sort of things that we were talking about
were stuff we had no clue about.
And now it's stuff we know just because it's
all trial and error and things like that.
And I think by this point I was getting rid
of my first business adviser because they were useless.
And then I managed to get another one that was amazing.
(05:03):
And it was through this
amazing free enterprising for London.
I just remember just having no clue about
anything at all, like not a clue.
And I was saying to someone the other day,
if I'd have known half of what I know
now, I wouldn't have set the business up. Really?
Yeah, because I didn't know that. Yeah.
It was so much bigger than I realized.
(05:26):
I've just learned so much.
If I'd have really thought about it, if I'd have really
gone really methodical and had a strategy before I set the
business up and this and the other you mean if you'd
had like a method to follow, like I've got maybe you
might have had someone to help me.
But I think because I kind of just was so
fed up with working full time and just not feeling
(05:48):
like I was making a difference at all.
And then I was just like, what am I doing.
And also the freedom thing was a massive part.
You mean the forest freedom flow, fulfillment and fun?
Yes, exactly correct.
This is how we talk to each
other, by the way, all the time.
Yeah, no, I did.
And I think I talk to you about this when
(06:08):
we first met and especially when you were trying to
help me find my purpose and all of those sorts
of things, and especially more recently in the coaching wherein
I'm trying to understand where my vision is in business.
And ultimately, that freedom thing
comes up so many times.
So for me, it was really important.
But if I'd have known it was going to take me
(06:32):
as long as it did to make some money, if I'd
have known that, I would have to deal with rejection a
lot more than I realized, I might not have done it.
I don't regret it.
But I think you need to be
a little bit prepared to do this.
But you also need to feel it out.
There's so many people out there saying, oh, this is
going to happen with your business and this and this.
And ultimately it's just going to
(06:52):
be whatever direction you go in.
It's a very personalized thing.
I think that's so interesting because from the outside,
we'll explain why we're together in a minute.
But from the outside, when we're talking
through your numbers and your success, I
think you have been successful really quickly.
And remember that most businesses don't
turn profit for three years.
They just don't.
(07:13):
I know we're talking mainly bricks and mortar
businesses, and obviously our businesses don't have those
expenses associated with bricks and mortar.
But most businesses don't turn
a profit for three years.
And I think your growth has been fantastic.
Yeah, well, we've just been looking
at the numbers, haven't we?
It's 140% year on year, which I just went incredible.
(07:34):
And you're so right.
But you know me and anyone that does
know me will know I'm exceptionally impatient.
So for me, taking six months to make
any real money was extremely long for me.
Well, yeah. Well, bloody good job.
You did make some money.
Otherwise, would you have given up?
No, I wouldn't have given up. No.
(07:56):
I think it's really interesting because I was talking
to somebody, I can't remember who it was.
And I was saying that I have never once
regretted setting up on my own, leaving corporate to
work for myself, freelance entrepreneur, whatever the word is
you want to say, just work for myself.
(08:17):
I don't really like those kind of
Pruner titles, so just work for myself.
Don't get me started on one printer.
I would never once regretted stepping
out and going on my own.
But what's really interesting, to give you a bit
of context about Zoe and me, and we're going
to put this out on both of our podcasts.
We need to explain I work with individual clients, do
(08:40):
corporate work, and you might say, oh, no, I thought
you just said that you wanted to leave corporate.
Well, I actually like doing corporate
because I like doing the facilitation.
I like doing leadership development.
I like doing kind of exec coaching, but
I like doing it on my terms.
When I choose with the clients
that I choose the corporate clients.
I don't want to work full time for
somebody and have some of the things that
(09:01):
you associate with that, which is the politics,
the hours, the deadlines being tied to that.
We're away now. It's Monday.
We're recording this, and we're on an
away overnighter in Margate for places.
So that's what I do.
But I mainly work with individuals rather than
(09:24):
business, because that's where my passion is.
My absolute passion is helping women to realize that
they can achieve the things they want to achieve.
They can pursue their dream.
I firmly believe that in order to get the
four FS in your life for freedom, flow, fulfillment
and fun, you have to work for yourself, because
then nobody's telling you what to do.
You decide.
You choose your freedom, you
(09:45):
decide what that looks like.
That's really important to me.
But Zoe does something really different.
Yes, but there's some close connections. Right.
And this is the idea of that fulfillment is
really important and doing something really meaningful, I think
not just for myself, but I've been really lucky
because I worked in HR and learning and development
for years and years and lots of different industries,
(10:08):
and I got to watch people develop.
And I really enjoyed that.
And I was talking to somebody about
this recently saying that I felt like
that was really meaningful work for me.
But then when I realized that actually I wanted to
step more into the diversity, equity and inclusion space, which
is basically just how can we make sure that our
(10:28):
careers and our study and all of the opportunities in
the work space are equitable and fair for every single
person, regardless of their background?
Then all of a sudden I was like, wow, yeah, okay.
That stuff was meaningful before that,
leadership development stuff and everything. And it is.
But for me, this is so much more meaningful.
And even when I'm exacerbated at the end of
(10:50):
the day, we facilitate, we coach, we develop content,
we project management, we do Di, audit and consultancy.
All of the wonderful things that you would expect
to help kind of small to medium businesses and
starts and scale ups to know how to be
more inclusive and to educate and raise awareness and
(11:11):
start some really great conversations to create that space
and create the space for diversity as well.
That's really, really important.
And so that's something that just really excites me.
So even when I'm having a really hard day or I've
had a really tough conversation inside or outside of work, and
this is the thing probably with yours as well.
(11:32):
You never take any time off because I can be out
in a pub with some friends, and I'll meet someone else's
friend and they'll be like, what do you do?
And I'll tell them they're really interested.
So we always end up that conversation.
It's great because I love it.
But you never switch off.
But it's different, right.
Because when you work for somebody else,
you do want to switch off.
Yeah, it's yours and you enjoy it. You don't mind it.
(11:52):
Oh, yeah.
Because it doesn't feel like work.
But also, you and I have
this real passion to help people.
We've got this real drive to want to create for you.
It's for the women and for the confidence
and for them to really start to reach
their potential and even discover that their potential
maybe is wider than they thought.
For me, it's about that.
(12:13):
How can I create enough curiosity in the minds
of the managing directors and the senior leadership teams
and the managers, et cetera, for them to go,
oh, I need to look out for all of
these different biases or different ways in which I
might be preventing representation from happening and inclusivity.
(12:33):
So that really drives me.
But what's interesting about that, when we've both been
talking is when we both started out, we were
quite vague in what we were doing.
We weren't really niche down and clear
about what we wanted to do.
And like you say, you came to that.
That's an area that you were interested in anyway.
But that's the area that you ultimately
decide to really focus on with Zing.
And for me, I was like, yeah, a bit
(12:56):
of confidence, a bit of this on the other.
But ultimately it is about helping women to go,
yes, I can leave paid employment and the stability.
And I'm doing a quotes because I
don't think the stability is quite what
it might have been before the pandemic.
But helping women to go, yes, I can do that.
I've got it in me.
I've got the self belief, the self confidence,
(13:18):
the self assurance, the drive, the determination.
I know why I want to do it.
I know what I want to get from it.
I'm ready to push myself forward, but I
need somebody to talk it through with.
I need somebody to guide me, coach and mentor
me so that I'm ready to go for it. Yeah.
It's interesting with the work that you do
as well, because you've got and I know
that we use imposter syndrome a lot.
Like, I know it gets expanded about quite a lot, but
(13:41):
literally it is there a lot more for women than it
is for men and obviously for non binary people as well.
But there's also the
intersectionality piece around that.
But the thing is these women have got
to be at a certain point where they
feel like, actually, maybe I can do this.
So it's almost like they need to up their confidence level
even at 1% before they can even think, well, who do
(14:04):
I go to to help me go even further again?
I was talking on a podcast about this recently about the
idea of women lifting women and creating space for women to
get bigger and better in their careers or find more purpose
in their lives in lots of different ways.
And I think more women that are doing this, the
(14:25):
more likely you are going to be able to help
them on that next part, because if we can slowly
bring them up and let them realize, you know what,
you can, you might be able to do this.
You might be able to go way bigger than
you're thinking or it might even be that big.
But you want to make a shift in your life in some way.
You need someone I think you need that support
network, and you need somebody who knows how to
tap into that to be able to do that.
(14:47):
And I classed myself as a very confident person.
I tasked myself.
I haven't had any sort of syndrome for a long time.
I just knocked that out myself over the
years, I guess, from coaching and various different
things that I had access to, fortunately.
But I still massively benefited from the two
different areas that you've helped to move.
So that program that we did last January. Yeah.
(15:12):
In lockdown, one of the lockdowns and
now with the business coaching, because it's
not necessarily my confidence in myself.
It's when I put myself out there for the business.
And I'm not going to say posture syndrome because
I don't want to attach that to myself anymore.
I'm trying to move away from that.
But there is a level of confidence when you're
(15:35):
putting yourself out there and you're charging clients for
a service compared to when you're an employee and
you were delivering that service as an employee. Yeah.
So it's a completely different mindset.
And I think what your coaching is helping me
with at the moment is to shift my mindset
on that and to think much bigger and have
(15:55):
much more of a vision, because I've been doing
some really good things with the business and we've
got some really great ways we're moving forward.
But I never really understood how can I make it bigger?
How can I really reach as many people as possible
so we can make as big an impact as possible?
And you've really helped me to go, let's remove some of
these Blinders a little bit that you put on your eyes
(16:15):
because you're told to just kind of go down this route.
And it just makes such a difference,
not just in the strategy aspect.
And obviously that's what we're here to do
today on our little away day in Margate.
But it's that concept of being able to talk articulately
with potential clients and customers and things like that, but
(16:38):
also really deliver an even better service because I have
very good clarity on what it is, the value that
I offer clients, the purpose of what we're trying to
do with the work and actually what they can then
give back to society through the work that we're doing
with them, that just really excites me.
That is the sort of stuff that makes
(16:59):
me think it's meaningful, what we're doing great.
We've got a business that's wonderful.
But actually, ultimately we're making
a difference in people's lives.
And that is just the most impressive
thing in the world to me anyway.
Certainly feel that way. No, for sure.
So somebody I worked with last year, she said to
me, and I've got a little sound bite of it.
(17:19):
I need to put that out around.
She said that I changed her life because I gave
her the she came to a workshop that I did.
And by what I said to her, she realized that
she should stop waiting and just do the things that
she wanted to do and free herself from.
And it was to leave corporate and to
go into her business with her partner.
(17:41):
She was running herself ragged, working
full time and then doing that
weekend and just being totally exhausted.
And she just needed the push to go, you can do it.
It's okay. You can leave.
And that's what she did. I didn't tell her what to do.
That's what she wanted to do. Yeah.
But she just needed somebody outside of
like family, partner, friends, just to say,
(18:02):
you know what, you could do that.
Why aren't you doing that?
And she's just like loving life ever since,
because now she has the freedom that she
always wanted that she couldn't get before.
I was just going to say when we were talking about
the ways that I've helped you in those two ways that
(18:22):
you just said for me, the biggest barrier that women and
men, I mean, I principally work with women.
That isn't to say I don't work
with men, but my focus is women.
Is that because we don't quite know how to get there?
Well, we think it's one jump
from employed to self employed.
It's salary to free for no salary.
(18:44):
It's having paid holiday and maybe a company car to
nothing because they can't work out how to do that.
They don't do it.
They haven't got the vision to see
that they could transition into that.
That's why I described myself, to find
myself as a dream transition mentor, because
you're not going from right.
(19:05):
Today I'm doing this, and tomorrow I'm
going to do something totally different.
But I've done nothing to prepare myself for that.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
You incrementally, grow, learn, develop,
reflect, change, growing confidence.
Even if you were confident before,
it's a different confidence when you're
certainly putting yourself out of business. Right.
So you have to be quite different.
(19:27):
And I was saying to you, some of the stuff
that I brought for this strategy that we're doing today.
I'm looking back and it was from what I wanted
2020 to look like, obviously not knowing the pandella was
coming, I don't think I'd even heard the word pandemic.
But anyway, really interesting.
So a lot of the things that I wrote down that
I wanted to do, I've done a lot of the things
(19:47):
that you'd be pleased to know because it's 2022, so you'll
be pleased to know that I did those.
But some of the things I wrote down about wanting
to feel more at the center of my business, more
confident, more strategic, et cetera, I've done that.
So when I look back at that, I think,
wow, I was really unsure now, I'm sure. Yeah.
(20:08):
So now I get to the different
now I get to another level.
I just keep moving up.
New level, new devil, right.
So you just keep progressing and learning as you go.
Yeah.
You know what I'm just thinking of?
I'm thinking because back in 2020, obviously, was
when I started my business as well.
And I think I've said this to you before,
(20:28):
but I remember on the 1 September, which is
when I officially stopped working for my last company,
I officially started working for my new one.
I opened my computer, stretched my arms out, put my fingers
on the keyboard and just said, how do I do?
Yeah, exactly what do I do?
Like, I've got to build a business from nothing.
(20:49):
And I think actually, if I'd have had you because we
kind of chatted, but we were still in the midst of
trying to figure out how we would do it. Yeah.
If I'd have had your transition work, I think
it would have made it so much smoother.
I probably wouldn't have had so many
mini breakdowns in that first year.
(21:10):
Like all of that stress and fear of not
making any money and that stress of not knowing
if what I was doing was the right thing.
There's so much trial and error, isn't
there in the first couple days.
But that idea that you look back and you think
about how far you've come from 2021 in 2022 is
huge and the fact we've just been looking at so
(21:32):
this is the middle of the day. We're recording this.
We've already done a few hours this morning,
we've got a few more hours this afternoon.
But we've already come quite far in
our thinking and we've actually started to
understand what we're trying to push forward.
And I think it's been really nice to have that
time to reflect and see how far we've come. Yes.
But I know I said that you have supported
(21:54):
me with those two different things, but actually the
other thing we know is that day to day
stuff and the fact that we just get it.
So there's a lot of people in our lives
that are in full time employment and they're very
happy doing that but they don't understand what it
means to set up your own business.
So they don't understand when you can't go
(22:14):
to something because you're working at the time.
They're not working out or that you were flush the
month before, but the next month you need to be
a little bit more kind of reserved with your cash
and all of that sort of stuff.
They also don't seem to incentive.
If you say you've landed a big
contract, they're like, wow, that's amazing.
I think that just kind of happened.
I'm like, no, now the real work starts to
(22:36):
do all of that work for that contract.
But it's just been really interesting to
have somebody that just gets it.
And we're very lucky.
Like both of our partners just they're very supportive.
Yeah.
They've always been our biggest cheerleaders and
stuff like that, which is great.
I'm also really lucky because my partner also
had their own business a few years ago.
(22:58):
So they really do understand all the nuances
of all the stresses and things like that.
But excuse the cough.
There is something really special.
Maybe it's the woman thing.
Maybe it's the woman's support thing, because we get all
of that other stuff as well that perhaps our partners
don't necessarily get and the lack of confidence that we
(23:20):
might feel from time to time because we've had a
bit of a knock or we've struggled with being able
to position ourselves and we get that kind of envy.
And we may see someone that's doing what
we're doing, and we think they're doing it
on such a much bigger scale.
But one of the biggest lessons I've had
is to stop comparing stuff to other people. Yes.
Understand your competitors.
(23:41):
That's really important.
But if you know that what you're offering is
big value and you know that it's making a
difference, just focus on making that even better, even
better value for people and really making sure the
right people are seeing it.
And a big part of that is having that support network.
That's been huge.
Yeah, huge.
And I think we were talking about this yesterday.
(24:02):
Weren't we just about saying that even when
you have your own business, you obviously don't
operate when you work for somebody else.
There's different departments deal with everything.
Right?
Hr, there is finance, there's sales, marketing,
whether there's all these different people.
When you work for yourself, it is just you, you
(24:23):
have to be all things to all people at the
beginning, certainly before you get some money behind you, then
you can start paying people to help you.
But you've got to be all things to all people.
And then there are things that you
need on associated costs because you're presenting
yourself as a credible business.
And it's hard for people who don't run their
(24:45):
own business to kind of understand what you're doing.
I don't know whether it sometimes feels a
bit like showy when you're doing stuff, but
it's like, hey, this is my business.
I've got podcasts, I'm writing a
book, I'm having professional photo shoots.
I'm getting PR.
I'm doing all these things.
This is me, this is me, this is who I am.
(25:05):
And it's sometimes hard to find
the people that understand that. Do you know what?
And I know I've banged on a little bit about the
female thing, but I do wonder whether there is some sort
of unconscious mindset that women are told to be small.
And if we're shouting about all of these
amazing things that we're doing, then that's a
(25:27):
bit uncovered and it's not very attractive.
And all of those things that were
supposed to be a bit more timid.
I don't feel like I hear male
business owners talking the same way.
No, because I feel exactly the same way sometimes I'm
really cringy when people say they've watched my if it's
a friend or a family member or something, say they've
watched a video of mine or listen to a podcast.
(25:47):
And I'm like, oh, how was it?
When actually, I know it's bloody good.
Like, I know it's good because
my clients really like it.
So surprised at that. I found that.
And I thought you would be too.
I think I'm getting there, but it's really interesting.
It took me a really long time to put myself out
there on social media, because I'm not a social media person.
I don't really have social media for myself.
(26:08):
Obviously, I have it for the business.
I need to make sure that people are seeing
the stuff that we're doing and they're getting the
helpful resources that we're putting out there.
And hopefully it's starting
some really good conversations.
But it was only maybe a year, not even maybe
like nine months ago, that I was just like, I
know I've got to put myself out there because ultimately
I am the expert, so I am the credibility.
(26:30):
And when you're working with the type of work
that we're doing, whether it's coaching or whether it's
Di training, whatever it is, people need to believe
that you know what you're talking about.
And so you have the evidence
that you have to show that.
And of course you can do all sort of demos
and stuff with future clients and what have you.
But if you're giving people little snippets
(26:51):
of what you're going to be like
in a facilitated workshop or whatever, they're
going to realize that you have credibility.
And credibility is hands down, the most
important part of my industry, because there's
just so many Cowboys out there doing
this, and they're taking money off people.
They're not really caring.
They're just checking out some two, three
(27:12):
hour session or some elearning or something,
and it's making no difference at all.
It's just ticking a box.
And that was a massive part of my purpose was
that I genuinely wanted to make a social impact.
Okay, I'm working with organizations, but
ultimately they're employing local people, they're
working with their local communities.
So you're going to have a social impact
(27:34):
when people have more of a social conscience.
And if I can nurture that and grow
that a little bit, then that's really important.
But the videos being in the podcast and all
of that sort of stuff, it really took me
a moment and it's not a lack of confidence.
It really took me out of my comfort zone because
I'm just not used to doing it and it's interesting.
(27:54):
So this morning when we got here, when we were
just sitting down, I did Alive in my Facebook group
and I just said, oh, I need to do Alive.
I normally do at ten.
It's five plus and I was late. I need to do it.
And I just started talking and then I finished and
I was doing a little tour of the house already
and you saw when I could never do that.
So interesting, isn't it?
These things, but I'm so past that now.
(28:15):
I was like that in 2019.
When I first started out, I couldn't do
like a live on Facebook or Instagram. I was so worried.
Now I don't care.
Just super download it.
Yeah, you were.
It was really nice to listen to, actually.
It's definitely something I could work towards.
It's really funny because if you put me in an exec
(28:36):
space or with the board or I'm having to pitch and
ask for money and I'm getting lots of negativity or kind
of closed mindset to come back to me, I'm fine.
I can do that. That's easy.
If you put me in a facilitated workshop
and I'm coaching people and facilitating and have
some really great discussions right in my element.
But point a camera at me or ask me
(28:59):
to talk to no one, that's where I really
have to push myself out of my comfort zone.
I think there's something about the
type of work that we do.
We get lots of energy from
the people that we're working with.
So there is something around knowing that I can
push all of that energy out there and it
makes a difference to the person's learning environment.
(29:20):
So I've had sessions recently.
Some of them have only been two hour sessions, but I've had
a couple in a day because one of my clients is kind
of ramped up their work a little bit and they're only 4
hours and I've got an hour or two in between.
So I'm doing various other bits of work, but I am
pushing myself so hard in each of those 2 hours.
I am shattered by today.
(29:40):
But the outcome from the learners, the feedback and
the way in which they're engaging in the conversations
that some of them are a bit contentious, some
of them can be a little bit triggering because
the type of work that I do is phenomenal.
So I know that even though I'm shattered after doing
a couple of those 2 hours in each day.
(30:01):
The difference it makes to their learning experience.
It's worth all of that energy.
But I can do it because they're coming back to
me if you've got no one in front of me.
I really struggle.
I really do.
Well, I'm fine on video now, but if you take
photos of me, if you take with professional photographer.
I just don't like that I'm so uncomfortable.
(30:24):
I'm like really cringy.
I just find it quite difficult.
It's interesting what you said about we were
talking about closed mindset and growth mindset and
we were talking about this yesterday.
Even though yesterday was our hang out,
we ended up talking about business.
You and I are so in that space of
growth mindset and pushing forward and believing in yourself
and constant development learning, opening up yourself to new
(30:51):
ideas, all that sort of thing.
And we're both so into that.
And sometimes that's hard with others.
That's why it's so important to
have like a business friendship.
So I've got an accountability buddy in
Argentina who I speak to every Wednesday.
He's brilliant.
But for you and I, because we're in the
UK, there's that real support thing that matters. Yeah.
(31:15):
And I just find it so great because I think I
know, like the other day you thought you got a call
about some potential work, which is massive, and you sent me
a text back, oh my God, I'm so excited.
And I get that if you said that to
somebody who's not like, okay, don't really get it.
We're really excited for each other
and we're excited and we're supportive.
(31:40):
But the other thing is we recommend but we
recommend because we both value each other's work. Yeah.
And we know how good the other one is. Yeah.
It's not us being Echo Chamber
or us thinking, oh, nepotism.
We just know it genuinely will
make a difference to somebody.
And I think that there's
something really powerful in that.
(32:00):
And that is really funny, you mentioned that particular piece
of work, because whenever I get something really exciting happen
or even sometimes if something's gone not so great and
I'm feeling a bit sad, there are three people at
the top of my WhatsApp that are message.
There's my mom, my partner, and you. Oh, really?
Because you're the person that gets
(32:21):
it from a business sense.
And you are hugely invested in my
business and my personal success, obviously, my
partner is hugely invest in it.
And of course, my mom as well.
And also you've probably the three of you.
I've had some others, of course.
But the three of you have been my biggest support as
you've been there picking up the pieces when it's not been
going so well, but also celebrating any of our wins.
(32:43):
And we went out for dinner and
drinks at the start of the year. Do you remember?
And we had a few drinks in
Kingscross, probably a few too many.
My husband thought I'd been murdered. Yes.
And we were just celebrating each other.
It didn't start off like that.
We were just like, oh, let's catch up
(33:04):
and talk about how the business is doing.
And we just haven't really reflected on anything.
And then we were talking about it, we just got
really pissed and went, oh, actually, we've done really well.
I think it's before Christmas.
I think it's October, probably just after a
year of fruit to us, wasn't it?
So then, if you think about where
we are now, we're in Margate, which
(33:24):
you might think is the strange destination.
So I've been coaching Zoe and we were
talking about it's really interesting because I was
talking about some stuff and then I was
like, oh, you need to think about this.
And you were like, oh, that's too much.
It's overwhelming.
I can't need to break that down into smaller things
because I was just talking mentoring rather than coaching.
(33:46):
Anyway, so then I said it would be really
good to actually have some time to actually sit
in the same room and spend together.
Then we said, oh, should we have a little away day?
Because if you work in corporate, you get
like workshops and seminars and stuff like that.
I don't get anything like that.
So we said, oh, yeah, let's do it. Where should we go?
And I said, I want to go to the
beach because I find although we haven't actually walked
(34:07):
on the beach, we've walked alongside it last night,
but I find there's something really therapeutic and really
calming about being by the sea.
So then we were like, Where should we go?
Where should we go? It's not too far.
Anyway, I've always wanted to come to
market and so here we are, market.
We're the most beautiful kind of Scandi style Airbnb.
We only went and met Tracy
Emmanuen yesterday, which is very Margate.
(34:29):
And I went in the Turner Gallery
while I wait for you to arrive.
And today, Olivia Coleman is filming a film on
the seafront and Margate is at a top boy.
And we missed Colin first.
We just gutted about.
But what happens to be Margaret?
Yeah, it's really funny because a load of my friends have
moved to Kent in the last few years from London.
(34:51):
It happens quite a lot, as people will probably know.
So I knew of Margaret, I knew of all
these places, but I didn't really understand them.
When you said, I was like, yeah, sure, I'll go there.
But it's beautiful, like some of the streets.
It's like you're walking down the set of a movie.
It really is. It's stunning.
It's so lovely, but it's been really interesting.
Like you say, we bumped into Tracy Yemen yesterday, but
(35:13):
we've just had this space and this time to do
all the things that we kind of talk about.
But we never make time and space
to do this sort of thing.
So I think already this morning where we started from
where we've got to because we are giving each other
the space and questioning each other and challenging each other
(35:36):
on our numbers and all of these different things.
And I've only cried once this trip, so that's
actually quite good for me, who's a massive crier.
And I haven't cried.
Yes.
So there's a real sense of
camaraderie, but I think there's space.
(35:57):
I've got a beautiful office at the bottom of the garden,
and I love it, but I'm in there on my own.
The place of shows is amazing.
It's open plan. It's beautiful.
It's got a massive table.
We've got flip charts and pens and
many pens, fruit and post it.
And we blew tucked them up to
(36:18):
the windows, hoping it's all off.
But it just has given us the space to really
explore and think about what are we trying to achieve.
And you're right be quite challenging.
And I said to you, I was quite surprised.
I went a bit introvert earlier.
I was a bit like quiet.
And I think it's because I'm scared, because
I've got massive ambitions for my business, but
I still have I wouldn't call it imposter
(36:38):
syndrome, but it's a little bit of fear. Yeah.
But you've got way in high.
You've got to set these targets.
You've got to set these goals.
Otherwise you just drift.
You've got to put it out there and put
it out there with somebody who gets it. Yeah.
And actually challenges too.
And actually one of the challenges that I said
to you, which to anyone that's not running their
own business or is not considering running their own
(37:00):
business, this won't make any sense, really.
It might even sound a little
bit narcissistic, but it's not.
If you don't believe in what you're
doing, you shouldn't be doing it.
And my question to you was, well, if
you don't do the project that we're talking
about, what are you taking away from people?
And then that shifted.
And it's great because we're both coaches, so
(37:22):
we both know the kind of trigger questions
that are going to really make somebody think.
And we can read people quite well.
But that question in itself, actually also then made
me think that if I did decide to give
up for whatever reason or not, that I would.
But if I ever decided to give up, what am
I taking away from the work that I'm doing?
Whether it's my pro Bono work or whether it's
(37:44):
the paid work that I do with clients?
And ultimately, I'm taking away the ability
for them to have those expertly facilitated
conversations where it really shifts mindset.
It can really make a difference to
representation and diversity and inclusion belonging.
Yada, yada, yada.
But if I don't do that anymore, that's one less
(38:06):
expert Dai trainer and auditor and expert in general.
That's that extra person off.
And then there's loads of Cowboys out there and I can't
do that I can't let people do a bad job and
charge all of these companies loads of money, make no difference.
And actually, in some cases, make it
worse because they've seen our D. Ei chain.
(38:28):
It's a load of old rubbish.
We had this terrible person come
and do this terrible thing.
There's no point in investing in it anymore.
And then they carry on doing the same habits and making
the world an even less fair place for other people.
And then the same with you.
And I can only use my example, of
course, but you just set an example.
There is somebody that you said you changed
their life like the work you did.
(38:49):
So you have to think it's almost selflessly if you
take your work away, if you don't lean I hate
leaning, but you don't lean into it and really push
yourself outside of your comfort zone to go.
Maybe I could have this much growth, maybe I could
reach this many different clients, maybe this and this.
If you don't do that, you're actually taken away.
(39:11):
And I think that's a slightly
different mindset to think about.
But yeah, I just thought it was a
really interesting conversation that we had earlier.
And even though it was aimed towards the way
you were feeling about it, it really made me
reflect on the work that I'm doing. Yeah, definitely.
And I think it's interesting because I never think
about giving up because I honestly believe the way
(39:34):
that my business has grown, the way that I've
grown as a business owner, the way it's continuing
to grow, it will only get bigger and better.
And if I give up, I'll never
know what it could have been.
So that's what will keep me going.
Plus, I'm probably unemployable, to
be honest right now.
I can go to Margate on the road on a Sunday
(39:56):
and get pissed and then do stuff on a Monday.
Yeah, nobody wants that.
So how do you find your people then?
Obviously, we got introduced by somebody else.
So if somebody was listening and we're saying you
need to find your people, what would you say?
So I guess it depends what we're talking about.
If you're talking to people that are considering starting
(40:18):
their own business or considering going out on their
own in some way, there's so many different things.
It took me a while, if I'm honest, you were potluck.
Jim clearly knew that both of us would
get on really well and it just happened.
It just clicked.
It hasn't been that way for lots of people.
There were people from before me setting up
the business that I thought were my people.
(40:40):
And then it turned out that they weren't
being very supportive and were actively holding back
different pieces of work and things like that.
So sorry about the door slamming.
Someone having a good old time outside.
But then I learned, oh, wow, there are some
people that are envious or because they don't have
(41:03):
the confidence to go out and do it themselves.
I wouldn't sabotage this too strong word, but
they were holding back from helping out. Yes.
And it's been really interesting because there's one
person in particular that I'm thinking of.
And then later on, maybe six months after they didn't
have to share something, I can't remember what it was.
They then asked me for some advice.
(41:24):
They were like, oh, I'm doing some work with
a client, and they need me to know a
little bit about diversity and inclusion if you've got
anything you can help me with.
So I, of course, helped because I regardless of
how I feel about that person and how they
didn't support me, if the world is going to
have more conversations around diversity and inclusion, I don't
(41:44):
care whether or not I get the work.
I just want those conversations to happen because
ultimately my big aim, my big goal is
to just create a fairer world for everybody.
Now, I know that's a massive ambition, but
if we're working with our networks and we're
able to support in that way and everyone
can upskill and be even better at what
they're doing, then naturally that's going to happen.
So some people from before,
(42:05):
of course, some are popular.
But the other thing is you have to find your people,
and it's going to take a bit of trial and error.
One example I'll give is the places
in which we based our offices.
So for a while we were looking for offices and we were
trying to figure out how can we find a space that we're
going to reinvest the money that our clients are giving to us
(42:28):
in a way that is true to our values.
So it had to go back into somewhere where
the local community was being supported and there was
work being done around diversity and inclusion.
Otherwise, I'm just part of the problem, aren't I?
So I went to lots of different
places, and I'm in Brixton, South London.
So as you can imagine, there's
lots of really vibrant, amazing places.
(42:48):
But a couple of the spaces that I
went to and they're very central bricks and
they're taking up quite a lot of real
estate there, which is massively gentrified anyway.
So lots of original bricks.
And people have had to move out because
they can't afford to live there anymore.
So one of the first questions I asked, I went
to these really swish offices and I was like, oh,
so how do you give back to the local community
(43:09):
and how do you make sure that you're supporting that?
And the person just looked at me
really blankly and they had no idea.
They were like, oh, well, I'll
ask and I'll let you know.
You're clearly not doing anything, are you?
Well, they asked and she was like,
oh, well, we donate to this chat.
I can't even remember what it
was, but it was nothing basically.
(43:30):
And then I went to another one
and they didn't have a clue either.
And then I went to Impact Brixton, which
is the space where our offices are.
We're doing some work with them around divestity and
inclusion for some really great social mobility work.
There's so many social enterprises in there.
Every single person that runs a business from that
space, including the space itself, does some sort of
(43:53):
social impact work, whether it is like myself, where
this is our whole company and this is what
we do, or whether they are a recruitment company
that are really involved in making sure there's better
representation in various different industries or there's this really
great charity called Spiral there, and they do some
really great work with the youth in the area
and how to help them to think bigger about
(44:14):
their careers and all of that sort of stuff.
So for me, that's where I found a lot of
my people, because they have a similar mindset to me.
They want to give back to the local community.
I think figuring out what your values and your
purpose are for yourself personally and then for your
business, which are most likely very aligned, then you'll
(44:35):
know where to go and find your people. Yeah.
And the other thing I was going to
say, because I've been in little memberships and
groups and stuff like that, and I always
prefer the smaller, smaller environments.
You can be in groups that have got like 15,000
people in it's just too much, it's too noisy.
I don't love it.
But when you set up your own business, go out
(45:00):
on your own, whatever you want to call it.
It's a bit like when you start school or start University
or have a baby, you meet people who are doing it,
that thing at the same time that you're doing.
And then you make friends with them.
And then over time you evolve and you work
out that you might have been friends with them
just because they set up a business, but actually
(45:20):
their core values or they were very different to
you personality wise, you didn't match.
Therefore, maybe they're not right for you.
So it is trial and error, but it's trying
to find those ones that really support you and
champion you and help you through the good and
the bad because there will be good and bad.
And I think my network that I've got, I'm really lucky
(45:44):
because I do feel I have that support and I know
lots of people who don't have that at all and would
like to talk business with somebody who don't have that.
So I think, yeah, definitely it's trial
and error, but you've got to put
yourself out there to meet other people.
And like my accountability buddy Sabine, who's fantastic
in Argentina, she just put a call out
saying, I really want a buddy.
(46:05):
And I was like, hey, we just started
chatting and we get to know each other,
but we've been chatting for nearly a year.
I think we started maybe July last
year, so nearly a year and like
hugely supportive, really supportive business relationship.
She's fantastic and I feel really lucky
to have her in a different way.
(46:27):
Do you see what I mean?
I would like to think that at some point I
can meet her in real life, but it's so nice
to have you online and in real life too.
Yeah, Margate is lovely, but it's not Argentina.
Argentina.
And I hadn't really thought about this
until we just had this conversation.
Now, something about being true to your values
(46:51):
and that's when you'll find your people.
Yeah, it's so true, because if I think about all of
the people that I would contact, if I got a fantastic
new client to celebrate, if I had had a bad day,
like maybe a pitch went badly or something like that, or
if I was just exhausted and I just needed somebody to
(47:12):
talk to, like I said, you'd be top of my list.
But also I've got other Di trainers
and we share knowledge as well.
That's the other thing.
So we are hugely invested in the work that we're doing.
And if we find a new technique or a new
model or a new tool or there's something really interesting
in a podcast or something like that, we'll share it
(47:33):
with each other and I think it doesn't just go
for you when you're in your industry.
I've had the same thing.
I was talking to someone saying a few months ago,
I'm starting a podcast and they were like, oh, let
me send you over all of this stuff.
And they're in a very different business to what
I'm in, but they had some experience with podcasts.
They didn't want me to waste loads of time
making the same mistakes they did and vice versa.
(47:54):
I've helped them with other stuff and I
think that there's something really powerful in that.
I have definitely found as a general rule,
that a lot of the female business owners,
we naturally can't help but nurture each other.
I don't know whether it's gender normal, whatever it
is, but then what I found with a lot
of the male business owners that I'm friends with
(48:15):
and have learnt loads from is they'll be much
more transparent in their communication, so they'll be like,
you really need to change that very direct.
So I feel like there's a really nice balance.
I do think you have to and I've got
lots of different age ranges around me as well.
So I've got people that have been running businesses for
(48:35):
like 30 years and they've given me some great advice.
I've got people that are just starting out now and now
I can pass on my knowledge from the last two years.
You've got to just surround yourself with
lots of different people, but people that
have similar values that align to yours.
I think it's just been really beneficial.
(48:56):
I couldn't have done this for the last couple
of years without people around me for sure. Absolutely.
Well, if you think about when you
work you have your colleagues, right?
So when you work for yourself you
need to find your colleagues whatever they
look like whatever industry Walker life whatever.
You just need to find your people who get you yeah,
that are going to celebrate your wins and also some of
(49:18):
the things that your friends and your family that are employed
you will say something that to them will seem really small
but somebody that owns their own business or runs their own
business in whatever way will be like, oh, I know all
of the tears and the sweat and the hard work that
went into that really small thing so I'm going to celebrate
with you the same way that you're celebrating your family might
(49:40):
be like, oh, okay. That's nice.
Do you know how many hours I had? Exactly.
So important.
Loved our chat. Oh, my God.
Literally 49 minutes.
We could have gone on forever.
Yeah, we must put a stop to it because
(50:01):
we've got lunch to eat we've been twelve we've
got lunch to eat and more work to do.
Such a great conversation and hopefully for people listening to
this will be reassured that it's not lonely you don't
have to be no you could be working alone but
you don't have to be lonely no and I do
think that there's a choice element there.
(50:22):
I think you have to choose to not be lonely
doing it yeah, but there's so many people there's so
many networks social media is brilliant for that as well
now but there's so many different places you can go
and find your people and your people will change like
I've got people that I'll only go to once a
year to talk to or people like Laura like you
(50:43):
who will talk quite often so it's just about There
might be some people that will help you right at
that moment in that particular thing but just get lots
of different people and network it's really important.
Definitely.
There you go.
Right back to Margate back to strategy planning.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.