Christoph Burgmer im Gespräch mit Annemarie Schimmel (1922-2003). In diesem Gespräch gibt die "grande dame" der deutschen Islamwissenschaft einen Einblick in ihre persönliche Motivation, sich mit der Kultur und Religion des Islam und insbesondere des Sufismus zu beschäftigen. Daraus wird ein Plädoyer für Toleranz gegenüber Andersgläubigen und letztlich gegenüber allem Fremden. Dabei setzt Annemarie Schimmel aufgrund ihrer persönlichen Erfahrung auf die "Lust zu Wissen", dem Prinzip des "Verstehen Wollens". Ein weiteres Gespräch mit Annemarie Schimmel über "Islamischen Sufismus" haben wir am 22.12.2023 gesendet.
Christoph Burgmer in conversation with Annemarie Schimmel (1922-2003). In this interview, the ‘grande dame’ of German Islamic studies gives an insight into her personal motivation to study the culture and religion of Islam and Sufism in particular. This becomes a plea for tolerance towards people of other faiths and ultimately towards everything that is different. Based on her personal experience, Annemarie Schimmel emphasises the ‘desire to know’, the principle of ‘wanting to understand’. We broadcast another interview with Annemarie Schimmel about ‘Islamic Sufism’ on 22 December 2023.
کریستوف بورگمر در گفتگو با آن ماری شیمل (1922-2003). در این مصاحبه، «بانوی بزرگ» مطالعات اسلامی آلمان بینشی از انگیزه شخصی خود برای مقابله با فرهنگ و دین اسلام و به ویژه تصوف ارائه می دهد. این به درخواستی برای مدارا نسبت به مردم ادیان دیگر و در نهایت نسبت به هر چیز خارجی تبدیل می شود. بر اساس تجربه شخصی خود، آن ماری شیمل به "میل به دانستن"، اصل "تمایل به درک" متکی است. گفتگوی دیگری را با آن ماری شیمل در مورد «تصوف اسلامی» در تاریخ 22.12.2023 پخش کردیم.
Veröffentlichungen u.a. / publications e.g.:
- Annemarie Schimmel: "Das islamische Jahr. Zeiten und Feste." Beck Verlag, München 2011.
- Annemarie Schimmel: "Die Religion des Islam." Reclam, Stuttgart 2010.
- Annemarie Schimmel: "Mein west-östliches Leben. (Autobiographie)." Beck Verlag, München 2002.
- Annemarie Schimmel: "Die Träume des Kalifen. Träume und ihre Deutung in der islamischen Kultur." Beck Verlag, München 1998.
-Annemarie Schimmel: "West-östliche Annäherungen. Europa in der Begegnung mit der islamischen Welt." Kohlhammer, Stuttgart 1995.
- Annemarie Schimmel: "Berge, Wüsten, Heiligtümer. Meine Reisen in Indien und Pakistan." dtv, München 1994.
Every Friday a new historical interview with dialogue partners from all over the world.Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Burgmer (00:08):
Welcome to Audio Archive.
Schimmel (00:18):
The channel for historical interviews with female writers, philosophers, activists, and intellectuals from around the world.
Host (00:34):
Hello. The occasion for this recording with Annemarie Schimmel was the publication of her small
book of reflections on Islam.
The link to it is in the show notes.
It is one of over 100 monographs that Annemarie Schimmel has published.
We visited the Orientalist in 1995 in her apartment in Bonn.
(00:57):
The conversation provides a personal insight into the life of Annemarie Schimmel almost incidentally.
Annemarie Schimmel, who passed away in 2003, belonged to a generation of scholars at the intersection
between the universal scholarship of the nineteenth century and social scientific education
since the early years of the 20th century. Century.
(01:20):
Unusual for an academic woman of her time was that she connected the subject of her research
with life on the ground.
Something new, as Oriental studies had lived for centuries off text-analytical scholarly study.
The real lives of people and their culturally Islamic shaped life worlds had been considered,
(01:43):
at the latest since the nineteenth century, as backward, anti-progressive, and resigned to fate.
If one were to add 'terrorist' as well, the racist image of Muslim women that is still widespread
in Europe today is completely propagated by far-right and populist parties.
(02:04):
In fact, countless politically persecuted individuals from National Socialism fled to Turkey
between 1903 and 1945, where they particularly contributed to the establishment of university structures.
Annemarie Schimmel followed them in the 1950s.
(02:25):
In this way, she escaped the post-war stench of the Federal Republic with its reactionary images
of women to the cosmopolitan Turkey of that time.
There at Ankara University, she taught for five years and later, after her return and temporary
teaching position in Bonn, after being denied a full professorship in Germany in the 1960s,
(02:51):
she went to Harvard in the USA.
In 1970, she was appointed Professor of Indo-Muslim Culture.
Throughout her life, Annemarie Schimmel advocated for an open and personal encounter with Islamic
culture and Muslim women, as she does in this conversation.
Burgmer (03:11):
Mrs Schimmel, in your book The World of Islam, which has just been newly published, you have
chosen a completely different approach than a guide for those unfamiliar with Islam.
Could you briefly describe that and tell the listeners why you chose such an approach?
Schimmel (03:31):
Yes, it came about like this.
I worked at the Metropolitan Museum during my time in America, among other places, and saw the
artworks, and I thought to myself, somehow it should be possible to clear up all the misunderstandings
about Islam, or at least reduce them, if one were to start from Islamic art.
(03:51):
And so I began to weave small stories around the artworks that were particularly dear to me.
It started with the Mamluk soldier, whom I had to pass by every time I went to my office.
And then it came quite naturally.
And I simply believe that through such a personal approach to an artwork and by trying to place
(04:15):
it in the context of its time and particularly in its spirituality, one can convey much more
of the true Islam to a Western reader than would be the case if one only presented dry facts and written accounts.
So I believe in the vibrant encounter with.
Burgmer (04:35):
These things, there are six small stories, seven small stories that they tell.
The time period is from the fifteenth to the end of the nineteenth century.
You forgo the important early phase period for Islam.
And you completely leave out the Middle Ages, the high guardians of Islam.
(04:57):
And you leave out the 20th. Century as well. Why this selection?
Schimmel (05:02):
The selection is very simple.
I have always been particularly fascinated by the time around 1500, the great turning point in world history.
I wrote my dissertation on the Mamluks, as well as my habilitation.
And I then became very involved with Mughal history in India, as well as early Ottoman history and culture.
(05:22):
It simply emerged; fundamentally, it is the old Mamluk soldier's fault, the one I always passed by.
The two greatest calligraphers of the Islamic world lived around the turn from the fifteenth to the sixteenth century.
And there, for me, a certain structure already emerged.
Furthermore, I don't know, I could have naturally taken a piece of art, an early bowl from Raqqa
(05:48):
or Samara, but I am not so familiar with the cultural context there, as I could have been in
this time around 1500 in all areas of Spain.
But I wanted to do things that were really close to me both from an artistic and a historical
perspective, so that the matter would come alive.
(06:09):
And the nineteenth century, the story with the bird conversations, the book was created in the
thirteenth century, and then the copy I am talking about was written and illuminated in the sixteenth century.
That came about quite naturally.
And coincidentally, I knew who the previous owner of this manuscript was and could therefore
(06:31):
bring something personal into it.
Burgmer (06:34):
For someone unfamiliar with Islam, the book is a rather strange encounter.
It is a book that is richly illustrated.
He has a visual encounter with the artworks of Islam.
And at the same time, stories are told that are based on scientific facts.
Such a thing has not yet been published anywhere.
(06:58):
Why this approach through history?
Schimmel (07:01):
Because I believe that this is the easiest way to reach people.
And then for me, when I engage with a time or a piece of art, I do not do it abstractly.
I always place it in the events that I know from my own experience in the Orient.
And when I see a piece of silk, for example, I immediately think of who might have worn it,
(07:26):
how the weaver came up with the design.
And then I simply try to get a very personal approach.
When I recently gave lectures in India, they said, oh yes, with you, things come alive.
It is never pure history.
I say yes, all those I engage with, historical figures, have become my friends and colleagues.
(07:51):
I converse with them, even if I do not write about them.
And that is why I found it easiest to try such an approach.
And the beginning, the first part, does indeed reflect the basis of Islamic history and culture.
So I believe that was quite legitimate, at least I hope so.
Burgmer (08:09):
Now they are pursuing the goal of countering a widespread image of Islam in the German public with such a form.
They say it is legitimate, but of course it completely misses the broad discussions that are currently taking place.
(08:30):
The reader is transported to other worlds, and there he is supposed to look at a space that
completely eludes him if he follows the daily information about the media and Islam and about books.
Schimmel (08:44):
Yes, and that is exactly what I wanted to say.
Because I mean, there are so many more or less good and bad books about fundamentalism, about
murder and mayhem, that I just feel one must present the reader with a completely different world.
Perhaps that wasn't even intended, but it happened that way because I have repeatedly noticed
(09:05):
that one finds much greater understanding with such an approach, namely explaining a work of
art or a person and approaching them humanely, than if I were to deal with the dogma or Islamic
law in its various forms for the umpteenth time.
No one can imagine what that entails.
And there are also too many possibilities for misunderstanding.
(09:29):
And I have lived in the Orient for a long time and have especially lived in families.
Therefore, it was important for me to highlight the female side or the children a bit, because
I believe that everything my characters say are things I have experienced myself at some point
in the 50 years since I have known the Orient.
Burgmer (09:50):
A very important component of this text is their own experiences that they incorporate.
The book about Pakistan was actually a pure experience book.
It is a piece of autobiography, a piece of literature, and a piece of science that they connect.
What role does this autobiographical element play in it?
Schimmel (10:10):
Yes, that is of course difficult to say, especially in this book.
But you see, I have written about two calligraphers.
I have many calligrapher friends, I know how they react, I know what they say, I have read the
literature, I know the families in which these things happen.
And it was as if I were sitting here and the old gentlemen were telling me this.
(10:32):
Or at the picnic in Agra.
I have experienced so many picnics or gatherings of high-ranking ladies that I know exactly
what is being talked about.
And if I can then incorporate the historical facts, it seems to me at least an interesting attempt. It seemed to me.
(10:54):
But there is a lot of myself in it, of course.
Burgmer (10:57):
Now the book has a correspondence in a line of thought in Islam, namely Sufism.
It is almost a sophistic approach for the Westerner.
Can one see it that way?
Schimmel (11:09):
I wouldn't directly call it a sophistic approach; I might say it is a somewhat internalised approach.
For sophism plays a surprisingly minor role in the book.
The old Mameluke certainly knew nothing of Sufism, and the ladies sitting in the garden know very little as well.
(11:29):
Even the girl in Iran knows relatively little about it.
It is, of course, always this attempt to not only come from the surface but also to see what lies behind.
And when one has read and translated a lot of Persian poetry, it comes quite naturally.
One simply cannot just rely on grammatical forms or historical facts.
(11:50):
I have always believed that one should read the white space between the lines and then explain
that white space a bit.
Burgmer (11:59):
Now there are a number of illustrations in the book, and part of them is also from you.
When were these illustrations created?
Schimmel (12:05):
Yes, the photos were taken during various travels in the Orient.
I originally wanted to illustrate the entire book, as it was planned, solely with objects from the Metropolitan Museum.
But when it slipped from my hands at the Metropolitan Museum and came here, I had to look for
additional material, which certainly did not harm the book.
And then I sent a few of my own photographs along.
(12:28):
I am not a professional photographer, but strangely enough, they chose a whole number of my
own slides from the many.
And I actually quite like that, because the slides or the images also show how I saw it.
And the best photographer cannot go beyond what his camera and he himself see.
(12:50):
And the worst photographer sometimes has a good eye for what he or she really wants to convey.
Burgmer (12:59):
A completely different question away from the book.
You are very active, constantly on the move in the Islamic world and already have a number of
new book projects in mind.
Can you tell us something about that?
Schimmel (13:10):
About the book projects or about the activity.
Burgmer (13:14):
How does this activity primarily manifest in literary production?
Schimmel (13:19):
Yes, so this year it is a bit more than last year.
I was, so that they could see my programme in the last few months, in January I had a lecture
in Basel and one in Ludwigshafen.
Then I flew to London for a day to do an interview for a film about Badakhshan, where the greatest
(13:43):
Ismaili poet of the Middle Ages lived, about whom I had worked.
Then I was in India for two and a half weeks.
I wanted to see a particular city there that is important for my work.
And I have now succeeded in that after decades of waiting.
Of course, I also gave lectures there and filled myself with impressions.
(14:06):
Then, shortly afterwards, I was at the university anniversary celebration in Uppsala, where
I also had two lectures, or rather, one lecture and a seminar.
It was a large international symposium.
And Uppsala or Sweden was actually the first country I got to know after the war.
I was there for two months because I was invited by the Swedish Church.
(14:28):
And then last week came the trip with the Federal President to Pakistan, which was of course
overwhelmingly beautiful, because Pakistan is, so to speak, my homeland.
And I met hundreds of old friends again.
When you visit a country regularly for thirty-seven years, you naturally know an infinite number of people.
(14:49):
And now next week it’s off to Iran, in the school year, where I am supposed to give lectures.
Then we have a congress in Utrecht.
Then I have a seminar on Maul Narumi in Salzburg.
Well, I have had enough as well, but that is only until mid-May.
The rest will come later, if I am still alive.
Burgmer (15:10):
Now they have, like hardly anyone in Germany, an overview of how the Islamic world has changed
in the last thirty to forty years.
What are the most significant changes that are overlooked here, that are not seen here?
Schimmel (15:29):
That is a very difficult question, because I do not know the Arab world as well as I know the
Turkish, Persian, and Indo-Islamic world, because I have travelled little in the Arab states.
It was not because I did not want to, but it simply did not happen.
I taught in Turkey for five years, and that was at a time when it was somewhat difficult to
(15:50):
go from Turkey to the Arab countries.
But it is, of course, what is repeatedly emphasised here, the hardening of the fronts, the so-called
fundamentalism, which I always believe is more of a political, a power-political matter that
is then cloaked in religion.
It is very simple when people have no work, no food, and no hope, that one can easily excite
(16:19):
and enthuse them again with a religious slogan.
However, it is not necessarily the case that the people who participate really know what it is about.
I mean, we have examples from Germany, also from such a period, because if Germany had not fallen
so low, it probably would never have led to a dictatorship like the one in thirty-three.
(16:43):
And also under a pseudo-religious guise, so to speak.
So I believe there is a lot to it.
And I fear that the more we talk about this and this threat, the stronger the counter-pressure will become.
And that is why I would prefer, in other cases as well, if this were not always placed in the spotlight.
(17:06):
Because most Muslims actually hate the so-called fundamentalists.
They see great dangers in that, and they would be very grateful if we could understand this a bit better.
I have seen this again in Pakistan, I have seen it in Turkey.
So I believe that by constantly amplifying these terrible dangers, we are doing neither ourselves
(17:27):
nor the Muslims any favours.
And I always try to warn about this in my own way.
Of course, one is then also attacked and receives nasty letters saying that Islam is really
the most terrible thing there is and so on and so forth.
But one gets used to it.
Burgmer (17:44):
How do you assess the flood of books about this fundamentalism?
I think almost every publisher has now published a book about it.
There are authors who publish a book about it every six months.
What is not talked about at all are the liberal movements that exist in parallel, of course,
(18:04):
both in the Arab countries and in the Iranian-Indian cultural sphere.
Schimmel (18:09):
Yes, they are of course always very easily overlooked.
Albert Hurani in his book "Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age" has shown very well that liberalism
is indeed something that does not sweep people off their chairs and that it therefore does not
(18:29):
have such great opportunities to make headlines, but that liberalism always operates within
certain circles that often elude the gaze of outsiders, unless they are insiders like Horani.
And I believe that too.
I mean, there are many movements trying to counter what is happening in fundamentalism.
(18:53):
But the sad thing is that small splinter groups keep forming.
I have just seen it again in Pakistan, where they are now escalating contrasts that have existed
for centuries and framing them under political slogans.
For example, the asha bin ahl rasul, very narrowly oriented Sunnis, who naturally find it repugnant
(19:19):
that the Shia reject the first three caliphs.
And the mystical movements, yes, they are more underground.
In conversations with Pakistanis, I have repeatedly felt that they do remember, at least in
many circles, the achievements of the Sufis, the mystics.
(19:42):
And in India, I saw exactly the same thing, perhaps even stronger.
So I believe there are so many details.
But ask how many movements and sects and denominations there are in Christianity in America.
It is exactly the same.
There, too, they initially talked about the fundamentalists, or those who attract attention
(20:08):
through spectacular actions, like setting fire to abortion clinics and such.
What should always be emphasised is that one should not generalise everything under one struggle.
One simply has to try to differentiate.
If a foreigner were to come to Germany, they would not generalise all Germans under one struggle,
(20:30):
but would also see that there are tensions between the various political and religious communities.
And even when we see what is happening here between Turks and Kurds, how is a neutral foreign
observer supposed to comprehend all of this?
And that is roughly how we feel at the moment with the Islamic world.
(20:50):
And if one does not know a bit of history, it is even harder to understand.
I believe that a great deal has repeated itself in Islamic history.
There has always been this wave-like movement of orthodoxy and liberalism, of Sunna and Bid'a,
that is, of tradition and innovation.
(21:11):
This can be seen very clearly in the history of Iran.
But I do not know.
It seems to me quite impossible to make predictions now.
However, I believe that it would be better if we did not exaggerate everything.
That is my personal opinion, but we should try to understand the questions and concerns of our
(21:34):
Muslim fellow human beings a bit better and also from a personal perspective.
Then one would probably get a completely different picture.
Thank you for being with us at Audioarchiv.
Follow us so you don't miss an episode and don't forget the like button.
Burgmer (21:50):
See you next week, your Audioarchiv team.
Welcome to Audio Archive.
Schimmel (00:18):
The channel for historical interviews with female writers, philosophers, activists, and intellectuals from around the world.
Host (00:34):
Hello. The occasion for this recording with Annemarie Schimmel was the publication of her small
book of reflections on Islam.
The link to it is in the show notes.
It is one of over 100 monographs that Annemarie Schimmel has published.
We visited the Orientalist in 1995 in her apartment in Bonn.
(00:57):
The conversation provides a personal insight into the life of Annemarie Schimmel almost incidentally.
Annemarie Schimmel, who passed away in 2003, belonged to a generation of scholars at the intersection
between the universal scholarship of the nineteenth century and social scientific education
since the early years of the 20th century. Century.
(01:20):
Unusual for an academic woman of her time was that she connected the subject of her research
with life on the ground.
Something new, as Oriental studies had lived for centuries off text-analytical scholarly study.
The real lives of people and their culturally Islamic shaped life worlds had been considered,
(01:43):
at the latest since the nineteenth century, as backward, anti-progressive, and resigned to fate.
If one were to add 'terrorist' as well, the racist image of Muslim women that is still widespread
in Europe today is completely propagated by far-right and populist parties.
(02:04):
In fact, countless politically persecuted individuals from National Socialism fled to Turkey
between 1903 and 1945, where they particularly contributed to the establishment of university structures.
Annemarie Schimmel followed them in the 1950s.
(02:25):
In this way, she escaped the post-war stench of the Federal Republic with its reactionary images
of women to the cosmopolitan Turkey of that time.
There at Ankara University, she taught for five years and later, after her return and temporary
teaching position in Bonn, after being denied a full professorship in Germany in the 1960s,
(02:51):
she went to Harvard in the USA.
In 1970, she was appointed Professor of Indo-Muslim Culture.
Throughout her life, Annemarie Schimmel advocated for an open and personal encounter with Islamic
culture and Muslim women, as she does in this conversation.
Burgmer (03:11):
Mrs Schimmel, in your book The World of Islam, which has just been newly published, you have
chosen a completely different approach than a guide for those unfamiliar with Islam.
Could you briefly describe that and tell the listeners why you chose such an approach?
Schimmel (03:31):
Yes, it came about like this.
I worked at the Metropolitan Museum during my time in America, among other places, and saw the
artworks, and I thought to myself, somehow it should be possible to clear up all the misunderstandings
about Islam, or at least reduce them, if one were to start from Islamic art.
(03:51):
And so I began to weave small stories around the artworks that were particularly dear to me.
It started with the Mamluk soldier, whom I had to pass by every time I went to my office.
And then it came quite naturally.
And I simply believe that through such a personal approach to an artwork and by trying to place
(04:15):
it in the context of its time and particularly in its spirituality, one can convey much more
of the true Islam to a Western reader than would be the case if one only presented dry facts and written accounts.
So I believe in the vibrant encounter with.
Burgmer (04:35):
These things, there are six small stories, seven small stories that they tell.
The time period is from the fifteenth to the end of the nineteenth century.
You forgo the important early phase period for Islam.
And you completely leave out the Middle Ages, the high guardians of Islam.
(04:57):
And you leave out the 20th. Century as well. Why this selection?
Schimmel (05:02):
The selection is very simple.
I have always been particularly fascinated by the time around 1500, the great turning point in world history.
I wrote my dissertation on the Mamluks, as well as my habilitation.
And I then became very involved with Mughal history in India, as well as early Ottoman history and culture.
(05:22):
It simply emerged; fundamentally, it is the old Mamluk soldier's fault, the one I always passed by.
The two greatest calligraphers of the Islamic world lived around the turn from the fifteenth to the sixteenth century.
And there, for me, a certain structure already emerged.
Furthermore, I don't know, I could have naturally taken a piece of art, an early bowl from Raqqa
(05:48):
or Samara, but I am not so familiar with the cultural context there, as I could have been in
this time around 1500 in all areas of Spain.
But I wanted to do things that were really close to me both from an artistic and a historical
perspective, so that the matter would come alive.
(06:09):
And the nineteenth century, the story with the bird conversations, the book was created in the
thirteenth century, and then the copy I am talking about was written and illuminated in the sixteenth century.
That came about quite naturally.
And coincidentally, I knew who the previous owner of this manuscript was and could therefore
(06:31):
bring something personal into it.
Burgmer (06:34):
For someone unfamiliar with Islam, the book is a rather strange encounter.
It is a book that is richly illustrated.
He has a visual encounter with the artworks of Islam.
And at the same time, stories are told that are based on scientific facts.
Such a thing has not yet been published anywhere.
(06:58):
Why this approach through history?
Schimmel (07:01):
Because I believe that this is the easiest way to reach people.
And then for me, when I engage with a time or a piece of art, I do not do it abstractly.
I always place it in the events that I know from my own experience in the Orient.
And when I see a piece of silk, for example, I immediately think of who might have worn it,
(07:26):
how the weaver came up with the design.
And then I simply try to get a very personal approach.
When I recently gave lectures in India, they said, oh yes, with you, things come alive.
It is never pure history.
I say yes, all those I engage with, historical figures, have become my friends and colleagues.
(07:51):
I converse with them, even if I do not write about them.
And that is why I found it easiest to try such an approach.
And the beginning, the first part, does indeed reflect the basis of Islamic history and culture.
So I believe that was quite legitimate, at least I hope so.
Burgmer (08:09):
Now they are pursuing the goal of countering a widespread image of Islam in the German public with such a form.
They say it is legitimate, but of course it completely misses the broad discussions that are currently taking place.
(08:30):
The reader is transported to other worlds, and there he is supposed to look at a space that
completely eludes him if he follows the daily information about the media and Islam and about books.
Schimmel (08:44):
Yes, and that is exactly what I wanted to say.
Because I mean, there are so many more or less good and bad books about fundamentalism, about
murder and mayhem, that I just feel one must present the reader with a completely different world.
Perhaps that wasn't even intended, but it happened that way because I have repeatedly noticed
(09:05):
that one finds much greater understanding with such an approach, namely explaining a work of
art or a person and approaching them humanely, than if I were to deal with the dogma or Islamic
law in its various forms for the umpteenth time.
No one can imagine what that entails.
And there are also too many possibilities for misunderstanding.
(09:29):
And I have lived in the Orient for a long time and have especially lived in families.
Therefore, it was important for me to highlight the female side or the children a bit, because
I believe that everything my characters say are things I have experienced myself at some point
in the 50 years since I have known the Orient.
Burgmer (09:50):
A very important component of this text is their own experiences that they incorporate.
The book about Pakistan was actually a pure experience book.
It is a piece of autobiography, a piece of literature, and a piece of science that they connect.
What role does this autobiographical element play in it?
Schimmel (10:10):
Yes, that is of course difficult to say, especially in this book.
But you see, I have written about two calligraphers.
I have many calligrapher friends, I know how they react, I know what they say, I have read the
literature, I know the families in which these things happen.
And it was as if I were sitting here and the old gentlemen were telling me this.
(10:32):
Or at the picnic in Agra.
I have experienced so many picnics or gatherings of high-ranking ladies that I know exactly
what is being talked about.
And if I can then incorporate the historical facts, it seems to me at least an interesting attempt. It seemed to me.
(10:54):
But there is a lot of myself in it, of course.
Burgmer (10:57):
Now the book has a correspondence in a line of thought in Islam, namely Sufism.
It is almost a sophistic approach for the Westerner.
Can one see it that way?
Schimmel (11:09):
I wouldn't directly call it a sophistic approach; I might say it is a somewhat internalised approach.
For sophism plays a surprisingly minor role in the book.
The old Mameluke certainly knew nothing of Sufism, and the ladies sitting in the garden know very little as well.
(11:29):
Even the girl in Iran knows relatively little about it.
It is, of course, always this attempt to not only come from the surface but also to see what lies behind.
And when one has read and translated a lot of Persian poetry, it comes quite naturally.
One simply cannot just rely on grammatical forms or historical facts.
(11:50):
I have always believed that one should read the white space between the lines and then explain
that white space a bit.
Burgmer (11:59):
Now there are a number of illustrations in the book, and part of them is also from you.
When were these illustrations created?
Schimmel (12:05):
Yes, the photos were taken during various travels in the Orient.
I originally wanted to illustrate the entire book, as it was planned, solely with objects from the Metropolitan Museum.
But when it slipped from my hands at the Metropolitan Museum and came here, I had to look for
additional material, which certainly did not harm the book.
And then I sent a few of my own photographs along.
(12:28):
I am not a professional photographer, but strangely enough, they chose a whole number of my
own slides from the many.
And I actually quite like that, because the slides or the images also show how I saw it.
And the best photographer cannot go beyond what his camera and he himself see.
(12:50):
And the worst photographer sometimes has a good eye for what he or she really wants to convey.
Burgmer (12:59):
A completely different question away from the book.
You are very active, constantly on the move in the Islamic world and already have a number of
new book projects in mind.
Can you tell us something about that?
Schimmel (13:10):
About the book projects or about the activity.
Burgmer (13:14):
How does this activity primarily manifest in literary production?
Schimmel (13:19):
Yes, so this year it is a bit more than last year.
I was, so that they could see my programme in the last few months, in January I had a lecture
in Basel and one in Ludwigshafen.
Then I flew to London for a day to do an interview for a film about Badakhshan, where the greatest
(13:43):
Ismaili poet of the Middle Ages lived, about whom I had worked.
Then I was in India for two and a half weeks.
I wanted to see a particular city there that is important for my work.
And I have now succeeded in that after decades of waiting.
Of course, I also gave lectures there and filled myself with impressions.
(14:06):
Then, shortly afterwards, I was at the university anniversary celebration in Uppsala, where
I also had two lectures, or rather, one lecture and a seminar.
It was a large international symposium.
And Uppsala or Sweden was actually the first country I got to know after the war.
I was there for two months because I was invited by the Swedish Church.
(14:28):
And then last week came the trip with the Federal President to Pakistan, which was of course
overwhelmingly beautiful, because Pakistan is, so to speak, my homeland.
And I met hundreds of old friends again.
When you visit a country regularly for thirty-seven years, you naturally know an infinite number of people.
(14:49):
And now next week it’s off to Iran, in the school year, where I am supposed to give lectures.
Then we have a congress in Utrecht.
Then I have a seminar on Maul Narumi in Salzburg.
Well, I have had enough as well, but that is only until mid-May.
The rest will come later, if I am still alive.
Burgmer (15:10):
Now they have, like hardly anyone in Germany, an overview of how the Islamic world has changed
in the last thirty to forty years.
What are the most significant changes that are overlooked here, that are not seen here?
Schimmel (15:29):
That is a very difficult question, because I do not know the Arab world as well as I know the
Turkish, Persian, and Indo-Islamic world, because I have travelled little in the Arab states.
It was not because I did not want to, but it simply did not happen.
I taught in Turkey for five years, and that was at a time when it was somewhat difficult to
(15:50):
go from Turkey to the Arab countries.
But it is, of course, what is repeatedly emphasised here, the hardening of the fronts, the so-called
fundamentalism, which I always believe is more of a political, a power-political matter that
is then cloaked in religion.
It is very simple when people have no work, no food, and no hope, that one can easily excite
(16:19):
and enthuse them again with a religious slogan.
However, it is not necessarily the case that the people who participate really know what it is about.
I mean, we have examples from Germany, also from such a period, because if Germany had not fallen
so low, it probably would never have led to a dictatorship like the one in thirty-three.
(16:43):
And also under a pseudo-religious guise, so to speak.
So I believe there is a lot to it.
And I fear that the more we talk about this and this threat, the stronger the counter-pressure will become.
And that is why I would prefer, in other cases as well, if this were not always placed in the spotlight.
(17:06):
Because most Muslims actually hate the so-called fundamentalists.
They see great dangers in that, and they would be very grateful if we could understand this a bit better.
I have seen this again in Pakistan, I have seen it in Turkey.
So I believe that by constantly amplifying these terrible dangers, we are doing neither ourselves
(17:27):
nor the Muslims any favours.
And I always try to warn about this in my own way.
Of course, one is then also attacked and receives nasty letters saying that Islam is really
the most terrible thing there is and so on and so forth.
But one gets used to it.
Burgmer (17:44):
How do you assess the flood of books about this fundamentalism?
I think almost every publisher has now published a book about it.
There are authors who publish a book about it every six months.
What is not talked about at all are the liberal movements that exist in parallel, of course,
(18:04):
both in the Arab countries and in the Iranian-Indian cultural sphere.
Schimmel (18:09):
Yes, they are of course always very easily overlooked.
Albert Hurani in his book "Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age" has shown very well that liberalism
is indeed something that does not sweep people off their chairs and that it therefore does not
(18:29):
have such great opportunities to make headlines, but that liberalism always operates within
certain circles that often elude the gaze of outsiders, unless they are insiders like Horani.
And I believe that too.
I mean, there are many movements trying to counter what is happening in fundamentalism.
(18:53):
But the sad thing is that small splinter groups keep forming.
I have just seen it again in Pakistan, where they are now escalating contrasts that have existed
for centuries and framing them under political slogans.
For example, the asha bin ahl rasul, very narrowly oriented Sunnis, who naturally find it repugnant
(19:19):
that the Shia reject the first three caliphs.
And the mystical movements, yes, they are more underground.
In conversations with Pakistanis, I have repeatedly felt that they do remember, at least in
many circles, the achievements of the Sufis, the mystics.
(19:42):
And in India, I saw exactly the same thing, perhaps even stronger.
So I believe there are so many details.
But ask how many movements and sects and denominations there are in Christianity in America.
It is exactly the same.
There, too, they initially talked about the fundamentalists, or those who attract attention
(20:08):
through spectacular actions, like setting fire to abortion clinics and such.
What should always be emphasised is that one should not generalise everything under one struggle.
One simply has to try to differentiate.
If a foreigner were to come to Germany, they would not generalise all Germans under one struggle,
(20:30):
but would also see that there are tensions between the various political and religious communities.
And even when we see what is happening here between Turks and Kurds, how is a neutral foreign
observer supposed to comprehend all of this?
And that is roughly how we feel at the moment with the Islamic world.
(20:50):
And if one does not know a bit of history, it is even harder to understand.
I believe that a great deal has repeated itself in Islamic history.
There has always been this wave-like movement of orthodoxy and liberalism, of Sunna and Bid'a,
that is, of tradition and innovation.
(21:11):
This can be seen very clearly in the history of Iran.
But I do not know.
It seems to me quite impossible to make predictions now.
However, I believe that it would be better if we did not exaggerate everything.
That is my personal opinion, but we should try to understand the questions and concerns of our
(21:34):
Muslim fellow human beings a bit better and also from a personal perspective.
Then one would probably get a completely different picture.
Thank you for being with us at Audioarchiv.
Follow us so you don't miss an episode and don't forget the like button.
Burgmer (21:50):
See you next week, your Audioarchiv team.
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