June 10, 2025 • 40 mins
I would describe Alan as one of the progressive leaders,
Somebody who has an actual personal link to the experience of the people who receive support.
Alan Tennyson Jt Chair Irish Society of Behaviour Analysis https://isba.ie/
Hi, Jules. Thanks. Thanks very much. That's kind of you to call me progressive. I appreciate it.
The big conversation we need to have in autism is the one about behaviourism.
Our project here is opening channels of communication.
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"I want to change ABA. "
"I don't know how or what is the thing I want to change yet. I just know that I want to know enough about it so that I can, bring something to it.
So I can bring some piece of knowledge that I know from my childhood or from my adult life as an autistic person.
I want to change it somehow, even though I don't know what that change is yet."
"Is that going to happen? "
Andrew Swartfigure
"Well, the short answer is the opportunity is there for that discourse. Rather than dance around the houses, I'm going to say yes, but I just don't know how long it will take."
The big conversation we need to have in autism is the one about behaviourism.
Our project here is opening channels of communication.
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Episode Transcript
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Spectrum Voices (00:00):
We speak our words, we listen, we speak our words, we listen.
(00:07):
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:20):
Well, we're back with the big conversation, the
big conversation about behaviourism,ABA and positive behavioural support.
It's the last time we're going tobe speaking with our guest today.
Alan is important within the Irishcommunity, I would describe Alan as one of
(00:48):
the progressive leaders, somebody who has.
An actual link to the experienceof the people who receive support.
Let me introduce you and say, hello, Alan.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (01:06):
Hi, Jules.
Thanks.
Thanks very much.
That's kind of you to call me progressive.
I appreciate it.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (01:13):
Well, as we come to the end of this project, I think
one of the lovely things I have learned.
Is that there are people like youin positions to have influence that,
that have, um, ideas that resonatewith those of us who are looking at
(01:39):
life from a neurodivergent angle.
And I think that's, that's avery valuable thing for us.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: Yeah, absolutely.. (01:51):
undefined
Thanks, Jules.
I've been reflecting onour previous conversations
some of the issues we've touched onand some of the things that might be
left to explore, and I'm conscious thatYou know, we really need to spell out
(02:14):
what is a way forward to makesure that any community that is
responsible for supporting others canalign with the values of the people
that are, that it's supporting,if, for example, we are selecting
outcomes in the learning situation.
For, for a neurodivergent child, howare we going to ensure that those
(02:37):
outcomes align with what the child wants?
So that it's not too heavilyinfluenced by what others
think is right for that person.
Jules, that is not an easyquestion, and I'm going to use a
very kind of emotive explanationfor why it's not an easy question.
(03:00):
So, In 1949, the Nobel Prize forMedicine was won by Portuguese
physician named Edgar Monzi.
Now, Monzi won the Nobel Prize fordeveloping the leuctorotomy, which
is another word for a lobotomy.
(03:21):
The lobotomy , this obliterationof personhood and of the person's
neurology went on to be practiced ontens of thousands of people in the U.
S.
In the U.
K., in lower numbers, it wasa higher proportion of the
population, one of the mainproponents of this procedure in the U.
S.
was a man named Freeman.
(03:43):
We can imagine that.
Nobel Prize winning committee.
Yeah, one flew over thecuckoo's nest, precisely, it's
very evocative of that thing.
We can, we can imagine this NobelPrize winning, awarding committee
making a decision about who to award.
They presumably thought that theywere doing a good thing at that time.
(04:07):
And it's this idea that like the roadto hell is paved with good intentions.
And that is particularly the case, Ithink, in disability and mental health,
where the values and needs of one partof a community are allowed to obliterate
(04:28):
the personal autonomy of another.
So, given that, and given that they didn'tknow what they were doing was wrong, how
do we move forward to prevent those kindof things happening again in the future?
, you know, I've been ruminating to, tomy mind, a possible solution to that
(04:51):
is to lean into the human rights basedapproach to disability and mental health.
I think by locating the rightsat an individual level, it should
provide a framework to preventthose kind of community or
(05:14):
societal impacts on the individual,
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (05:18):
I think the way that will be edited is it will
probably stop when you say that you arefollowing the ideas of human rights.
very much.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (05:29):
Cool.
Whatever you think best there, Jules,you know, you've, you've done a
really good job at editing so far,
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (05:35):
I thank you for coming back and saying.
If this is really what we needto be talking about, the Human
Rights Act itself is under attack.
Absolutely.
The Human Rights Act is under attack fromquite a large part of the population here
in the UK that have been convinced thatthe Human Rights Act is other people from
(06:01):
other places interfering in the localpolitics, and they're not seeing it as
all human beings, protecting us all.
So I worry about only relying on the goodnature of the population of our respective
(06:24):
countries to embrace the Human Right Act.
Do you see where I might feel that?
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (06:32):
Yeah, I think it's, it's a, it's a
constant danger and the, you know,just the old adage, the pendulum
swings, just because we've made.
Progress in a particular directiondoes not mean that that progress
can stop and can even regress.
And there are incredibly dangerousideas within our societies at large
(06:59):
about how some individuals pose athreat to the broader community.
And I suppose that idea reachedits logical conclusion in the
eugenics movement, it was dominantin many areas of the world in the U.
S.
and the U.
K.
Deep like Dalton, the father ofeugenics, who coined the term, was
(07:19):
also a big proponent and developedIQ tests, , there's this kind of
dark history of classifying people,pathologizing their individuality
it's those tendencies that we reallyneed to be on guard for, I think.
You're an odd fella.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (07:41):
I'll take that as a compliment.
Well, you know,
I feel for you, actually.
I empathize with where you're coming from.
You're in a profession thatyou recognize has a dark past.
(08:02):
And you as a human being, Irecognize in you a want and a
need to make things better andchange things in a practical way.
And that's why you You know, become theperson you are in the Irish Society
for Behaviour Analysis, you know,unfortunately, I think you're an outlier.
(08:33):
And in these 20 programs, when they'reSealed up, finished, stopped, and put down
as a resource for people, and people comeback to them in the future and say, Wow,
I got what Alan was saying there now, or Igot what the other Alan was saying there,
(08:55):
or I got what Andy was saying there.
I think, because you're an outlier,
people are going to feelthey missed an opportunity.
Because when the things that yousay become More relevant to your
(09:15):
colleagues, the time will have passedfor grasping the opportunity to speak
directly to the autistic community.
They will have lost their patience.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (09:32):
Yeah.
I don't know where you hadto respond to that, Jules.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (09:37):
Okay.
Don't respond to that.
That's fine.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (09:39):
Yeah.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (09:40):
It's a year.
Today's the anniversary, almost, of Whenhere on Autistic Radio, we started the
big conversation, Behaviourism and Autism.
We've given it a good go,and we've achieved quite a
lot during that time for us.
As a group, we've achieved the abilityto prove that we are a very easy
(10:09):
forum, an easy format to come anddiscuss ideas in Autism, including a
difficult subject like Behaviourism.
So we've gained from this.
But at some point you have to say,we're no longer gaining the effort we
(10:29):
put into this is no longer bringingidea of benefit back to us that means
we can continue with it or fund it.
What do we do about that?
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (10:45):
You've committed time and resources to
that, you know, valuable time andresources to that, Gilles, you know,
there's no there's no doubting that.
We're here doing it, so that's obvious.
To start sustaining that , to lookfor opportunities to sustain this
conversation in a more collaborative way.
(11:05):
, other entities shouldering someof the burden of keeping the
conversation going, shouldering someof the responsibility and the cost
of keeping the conversation going.
You know, , I used sit on the rightscommittee and some of the people they'd
be there on a voluntary basis whileI was paid, being paid to be there.
Not only that, I wasgetting expenses to go down.
I was getting mileage to attend, whereasthey were not getting mileage to attend.
(11:30):
So there's, , obvious problems with,with that and how that, how that arises.
If, if one part of the relationshipis shouldering too much of the
responsibility, , that's not sustainable.
It's not, that's not equitable.
. Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:48):
I know behaviorists like numbers.
And I quite like numbers anddata and patterns myself.
There is a listenershipfor these conversations.
The demographic of those listenerships is, not, not exclusively amongst professionals
(12:09):
in autism, not just behaviorists, butother people interested in what you're
doing and, and how you deal with this.
A lot of people have appeared to havecome to this from my emails to say,
let's have a look at this car crash.
You know, let's, let's see what happenswhen the behaviorists talk to the
(12:31):
Autistic advocates, and it's almostlike going to a wrestling match for
them, as far as I can tell from theway they discuss it in emails to me.
A bit like, you know, a dogstanding up on hind legs.
Can they achieve it elegantlyand can they dance, you know?
(12:54):
That's it.
The other set of numbers is abouthow people share us or bring
attention to us through social media.
And I did an experiment with you guys.
I sent you out an open letter to say,come on guys, pull your finger out.
(13:19):
Join in, help us out here.
Tell other people in your profession.
What we're doing.
And there was a Friday when therewas a sudden jump in, in the amount
of people that listened to thebehaviorist conversations and a little
bit of a jump in the numbers for ourmore autistic based conversations.
(13:43):
So the professionals were probably,I infer having a little look at
what else we do, you know, justin case behind their backs, we're,
you know, we're Being difficult.
I don't know.
Or maybe because they're reallyinterested in, you know, what we
say when we're relaxed and okay.
(14:04):
You know, not in a forum where we'reput on the spot, but what we would
say naturally, probably more valuable,actually overhearing us talking
comfortably for me is a better resourcethan putting us on the spot and making
us perform in any kind of other arena.
But it's stopped.
(14:25):
Once.
The people I'd asked to do a little bitof a rally on social media, something they
may even be uncomfortable with, Once theyshared our posts, and once they shared
things that I put out there purposelyfor them, they did not get re shared.
Very far.
(14:48):
The way social media works, aswe know, is that one snooker ball
hits two snooker balls, and the twosnooker balls hit four snooker balls.
And then we have thischain reaction of interest.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (15:00):
If
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: there is interest. (15:01):
undefined
If it's cats walking on theirhind legs or somebody falling
over, that's how it works.
Amongst the behaviorist community,the people who put it out
there, it came to a dead stop.
That's very indicative.
(15:22):
That's very good data.
What does it indicate to you?
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (15:28):
I don't know.
I've been, you know, I've been obviouslyreceived that and I was one of the
people who shared evidently, you know,and actually you're the best one.
Yeah, and I suppose there is asaying in behavior analysis where
you don't speak beyond the data.
And if I were to start.
(15:49):
Making inferences about why I thinkthat happens, I would be speaking
beyond your data there, Joe's.
Many of the behavioral analyticscommunity, ISBA, . They may have
a small presence on LinkedIn, butthey're quite conservative and
reluctant to share or to put theirheads above the parapet in any way.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:15):
I thought you might say that.
Go on.
So I prepared myself, and I looked atthe next group of people, the people
who We're in the sharing and I saw themsharing four or five other things from
(16:39):
other people that then would get five ormore multiples of the amounts of share.
Right.
So I can directly compare.
People who shared our stuff andwhether that got re shared, to what
other people shared as well, thesame individuals to the same group of
(17:01):
people, and whether that went further.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: Yeah, I'm with you, Gilles. (17:03):
undefined
, when the facts change,Gilles, I change my mind.
. Jules-AutisticRadio.com: You know, there's no rights or wrongs in here.
I'm just trying to seeif this has a future.
When I withdraw, when I walk back and say,look, my door's always open, come here.
(17:25):
I've, I've got everything set up for you.
Will they use it?
And the absolute impression I have atthis point in time is no, they won't.
Yeah,
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (17:41):
let me come at it for a different way
then where do we want to see this?
We need the community of peoplethat are supported directing the
professional activities , Of aprofessional community, and that is not
just a query for behavioral science.
(18:02):
That is a query acrossevidence based practice.
, public and patient involvement.
So, PPI.
And the PPI is supposed to be thereto direct what is important in terms
of outcomes and what outcomes needto be included as the focus I think
(18:27):
that right at the center of behavioralanalysis, you should have social
validity and social validity is that.
being led by the views and values of thepeople who you're directly supporting.
That's central not only tobehavioral science, but to the wider
evidence based practice movement.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (18:51):
So if social validity is right at the center,
how is it that they're not jumpingon board the opportunity to speak
to quite a large group of veryeasy to talk to autistic people
(19:11):
that we've assembled for you.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (19:14):
I guess, you know, for the, for the , I
think you've described it before,Jules, person at the Coalfest,
person doing their day to day work.
They probably don't feel it as theirrole, or they would be very reticent to
do it because, you know, they'd feel,Oh, I'll get something wrong, or am
I qualified to speak to this subject?
(19:36):
And that could be someof the hesitation there.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: I don't feel for them. (19:40):
undefined
I don't feel for them.
I'm an autistic man withcommunicating difficulties.
Sometimes a man who actually can'tbring words out of his brain.
And you're asking me?
To forgive professionals, you're askingme to forgive a group of professionals
(20:09):
for being shy to come and speak tous as people almost representing
their customers, their clients.
That's rather pathetic.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (20:25):
Customers, I would have an issue with Jules as well.
You know, I feel it makes mefeel very uncomfortable to word
customers because it seems.
Very, you know, transactionalso really, I don't know.
And not knowing should be aspace that we're comfortable in.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (20:44):
Could you just explain that last piece for me?
Not knowing should bea space comfortable in.
Absolutely.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (20:55):
Yeah.
That is kind of like, to my mind.
That is central to both abehavior analytic view and to
an evidence based practice view.
This idea of not speaking beyondthe data, so not venturing into
areas where we just don't know.
Now, listen, I'm guilty of thatas much as the next person.
(21:17):
It's a, it's a very high bar to meet.
Trying to stop ourselves from speakingabout things that we don't understand or,
or know and speaking within, within the
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: observable and knowable space. (21:35):
undefined
Yeah.
Okay.
I think it's perfectly reasonable toassume a guy like me with communication
difficulties hasn't managed toexplain or express what he's thinking.
(21:57):
I'll try again, and thank youfor giving me the opportunity.
If your profession does not havethe confidence or bravery to
come alongside and speak with.
(22:19):
The group of people who they recognizehave communication difficulties and
differences because they themselves areafraid of the way their communication
will be interpreted or put across.
It does not gain respect from me.
(22:42):
I expect better.
And I also think I am a customerbecause I'm paying for it.
Thank you very much.
Almost everything, every piece ofresource that the professionals
receive come from me as the taxpayer.
They come from my businesses.
(23:04):
They come from my income tax.
I am the customer.
I do want you to be heldto account like a customer.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (23:17):
And absolutely, we should be held to account, Jules.
That is the function of anevidence based practice.
So, when I come to you and I make claimsabout being able to do something, Jules.
Let's say we make a claim that thepeople we are supporting are going
to experience less distress and loss.
less self injury, less harmingthemselves, harming others, less distress.
(23:42):
If we make that claim, we needto be able to demonstrate it.
And that is what we shouldexpect as a society.
And that is central to the evidencebased practice movement, central to
the question of behavioral science.
And it is a minimum standardthat needs to be met.
(24:05):
And all of those Delivering supportsto any individual need to be able to
demonstrate that minimum standard.
And unfortunately, that's not thecase in many, in many examples.
So, we, we need to refocus on evidencebased practice and that is how to ensure
(24:30):
quality for the consumer, if that's theword we want to use, and efficiency for
the taxpayer and a fair and just society.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (24:43):
Here in the UK, there's just been a government audit.
Independent Audit, and it'slooked at the money spent on SEND,
Special Educational Needs Support.
The broad brush strokes are, ofthe report, are that there's no
(25:08):
evidence that the money that'sbeing spent has any positive outcome
for the individuals involved.
That's the headline.
And here in the UK, the support they'retalking about in the main is is support
based on traditional behaviorist values.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (25:28):
I would challenge that, Jules, absolutely.
I would, I wouldabsolutely challenge that.
Which part?
I don't think that's, it's not based, it'snot based on behavioral principles at all.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:37):
Okay, go ahead.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (25:40):
It's not, it's just simply not, because like
you're only talking about, but a very,very small community of people that
actually, have skills in deliveringeither positive behavior support or
applied behavior analysis or anythingreally describing itself as behavioral.
But what you have is because of thebehavioral sciences success in developing
(26:02):
an evidence base, you have policy papersthat will come out and say you should
deliver a behavioral based support, butthen you don't have the resources to meet
that need for the people being supported.
And so you have this, this juncturebetween what is said in policy
and what's done in practice.
And that makes it look as thoughwe are recommending, or the society
(26:24):
is recommending, positive behavioursupport, behaviour best approaches,
but you don't have the skills ofthe people to deliver that need.
And therefore you end up with thissituation where you don't have any
quality outcomes, you don't have anyevidence based practice in reality.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (26:41):
I'm really glad I gave the opportunity to, to answer that.
I don't think that's how it's goingto play out in the politics here.
The politics here seems to be thatspecial and education needs is going
(27:03):
to be scapegoated into a situationwhere there's so much demand that
it's quite obvious that the taxpayercan't fund that kind of demand.
Yeah.
And it seems to me the way it's goingto swing round is that we're going to be
(27:25):
tried to convince as a population thatwe need to remove as much of the spending
resources because it's unfair for thispart of the population to take so much of
our collective will, collective resource.
(27:51):
I, I see a, a politics movingagainst SEND provision.
And I think autism is part of that.
I think the neurodivergence movementis making it look as though so much
resource would be necessary that thepopulation has to push back and say, no,
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (28:16):
well, you know, that would be very sad,
Jules, and that would ultimately.
mean people going without their needsbeing met, and a less inclusive society,
and a less rich, a less rich and vibrantsociety, where and a less rich, a less
(28:39):
rich and vibrant society, where We could,I think what you're saying is, is that
we could revert to a place where we'reblaming people for having the needs that
they, for having the needs that they have.
I hope not paraphrasing youtoo much there, Jules, but
that is a, that's a risk.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:58):
Yeah.
I think that's anundercurrent that's happening.
I still have to go back to thataudited report that you've disputed.
And the reason you've disputed is it'sI think because you're saying that your
profession hasn't had a good enoughchance to prove it can be done better.
(29:20):
More or less.
I'd be happy with
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (29:21):
that.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (29:22):
Okay.
And I'm saying I'm quite happy toaccept a civil servant put together
report that finds difficulty in findingvalue in the millions that are spent.
So, you're going to come back andsay, well They should have been
(29:45):
spending on you, and you can proveoutcomes, and you can measure them.
And then the autistic community isgoing to come back and say, yes, but
they've been measuring the wrong things.
How do we address this?
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: Beautiful, Gilles. (30:03):
undefined
You know, I think that's, that's verymuch a kind of, that's kind of, that is
where my thinking is at, effectively.
So, the community comes back and says,we're measuring the wrong things.
Fair enough.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's, that seems reasonable to me.
Because we think of Egas Manziwinning the Nobel Prize for
this, those hideous lobotomies.
(30:26):
And why was that?
Was because the outcomes were bequiet, be still, be quiet, be docile.
And those outcomes were valuable to thatcommunity, the ones who were running
the asylums and the institutions.
Then we think, okay, so we needto reframe all our outcomes.
We need to reframe our outcomes tobe human rights focused and focused
(30:47):
on the needs of the communitiesthat are receiving the support.
So how do we do that?
We have to build structures thatallow that to go on as an iterative
process, so there's continualfeedback loops into the outcomes.
And then in the same frame, we needa policy that is evidence based.
(31:07):
i.
e.
it is led by the outcomes.
So, that is, that is the inductivebehavior analytic, behavioral science
and evidence broad, broader than that.
It's an evidence based practice approachto policy development and delivery.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (31:27):
The next part of this, the bit you might not say.
So I'll say it for you, push in,
is that to determine what outcomes tomeasure, you need a full inclusion of
(31:52):
autistic people to interpret it for you.
And that's why I come back againto the conversation that I've been
doing this for a year now, and AndI'm not seeing your profession do the
things that you're advocating for.
I'm not seeing them include orreach out to us to make that happen.
(32:16):
And I think that's the keythat would potentially make
everything you do work better.
The key is actually embracing theautistic people who are able and willing
to help you reframe some things thatwill multiply the value of what you do.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (32:40):
We're very much on the same page about that, Gilles,
that I view that as the key as well.
I think we need.
Process, process, process.
So we need ways of continually checkingand continuing the conversation so
(33:01):
that the thinking can continue to berealigned to the values of the community.
Now that makes it sounds likevery unshifting sounds and how do
we really know, but that reallyis, is what's what's required.
There's the extreme urgency of now.
It's all very well talking about, oh,we're going to get things right in
(33:21):
the future, but what happens today andtomorrow, the day after, you know, there
are kind of, there's, there's situationsthat are happening today in the decisions
around the support people receive.
And they're very, they're very difficult,the society out there does not get
(33:42):
it right all the time, or, you know,even some of the time when it comes to
supporting the people that need support.
Harry-Autistic-Association.org: Yeah, it's all about, (33:53):
undefined
any positive change that is going to comeis very slow paced, and unfortunately
it seems in many ways that, Things andprogress is only made through other
people's, , really negative experiences
(34:15):
and while it's good that change can bemade, it's just very worrying that these
negative experiences and very, you know,very damaging experiences for many people
is going to happen for things to change.
Progress can be made, the conversationis always worthwhile having, just to
(34:35):
demonstrate that these things exist.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: Absolutely, Harry. (34:39):
undefined
I think, like, power givesup nothing without demand.
There has to be demandfor power to seek control.
So wherever that power lies, and Ithink some of the misramming in the
debate has been about putting thepower into the hands of the Behavioural
(35:00):
Analytics Community, whereas reallyit's, that's not where it is.
The Behavioural Analytics Communityis a very fringe community in
this, in this space that is.
pushing and has been agitatingfor evidence based practice.,
For a very particular form ofempirical evidence based practice.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (35:25):
I think actually if we're talking about
evidence based practice and how youcollect the evidence and the kind of.
study you do, speaking to autisticknowledge development would be very
helpful for you because they have modelsof analyzing what they do as they go
along, which means that they're very, veryreactive to the data as they go along.
(35:51):
I'd recommend Sean and Lila over autisticknowledge development, uh, an APO.
Just make a note
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (35:59):
of that.
I wasn't aware of that.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: They're professionals and (36:01):
undefined
they're respected in Scotland,.
They have inroads into the professionand they're, they work alongside
the main charity in Scotland.
Instead of putting you on the spot here.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna speak directly toHarry Harry is the chairman of Autistic
(36:25):
Association, the autistic charity thatis funding this group of conversations.
So my question to Harry is, wouldAutistic Association in the future
be willing to at least partly fundan extension of this conversation?
(36:48):
Would they consider it at least?
Harry-Autistic-Association.org: Absolutely Jules. (36:51):
undefined
They do need to move forwardinto other things but.
We don't want to put, I mean,Yes, I'm basically saying yes.
Partly funded, of course.
Because there's a lotmore to be discussed.
I mean, we've just touchedthe surface, really.
And what I was speaking beforeabout was about how progressive
(37:14):
change is so, it takes so longto happen, if it happens at all.
And we've only just kindastarted the conversation.
A lot of work's been put into this.
A lot of money's been put into this.
Thank you.
But I've just started, so I'd beobviously willing to part fund,
uh, if we can move it forward, ifthere's the opportunity to do so.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: You said part fund? (37:35):
undefined
Yes.
Lucy-Dawson-Autie-Unmasked (37:41):
Where I am in my little part of the world, the services
are really lacking in terms of autism andhow they support people it got to the
point where I had to be very proactiveand actually go to the service provider.
I'm now an expert by experience butit's, it's not a paid position,
(38:02):
I volunteer and have to do it.
And it's almost a shame that people likeme are having to give their time for
free in order for everybody to benefit.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: That's absolutely Lucy that (38:14):
undefined
I completely agree with that.
If we really are committed to developingoutcomes that align with the values of
a, of a community, then we need to starttaking seriously those roles of expert by
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (38:31):
experience.
Well, that's the lastword today from Alan.
And thank you, Alan, fortaking part in this thing.
First series that I know of whereautistic people speak openly and frankly,
(38:56):
respectfully, with a growing numberof people in the behaviorist community
in the UK and Ireland, who are askingus to understand that they themselves
share many of the values that we share.
(39:19):
Much of this conversationhas, unfortunately, been
about trying to continue it.
Hopefully, that will happen.
But if it doesn't, There's20 programs out there.
(39:41):
As a resource.
For people who are new to behaviorism,new to advocacy in autism, to use as
some key and interest into our thinking.
(40:01):
Thanks for being part of that, Alan.
Thanks very much, Jules.
Thanks, Harry and Lucy.
ABA, PBS, Behaviorism,Big Autism Conversation.
is facilitated by Autistic Association,the entirely autistic charity, which funds
(40:21):
itself so these conversations can happen.
Autistic radio is personal and it'sinformal, which means that those
taking part speak only for themselves.
If they mention an organizationthat they work for or they're a
member of, they're not speakingon behalf of that organization.
(40:43):
We shouldn't take anyimplication from that.
It's also the case that people'sopinions change over time.
So while this recording Is there forever?
People change.
We speak our words, we listen, we speak our words, we listen.
(00:07):
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:20):
Well, we're back with the big conversation, the
big conversation about behaviourism,ABA and positive behavioural support.
It's the last time we're going tobe speaking with our guest today.
Alan is important within the Irishcommunity, I would describe Alan as one of
(00:48):
the progressive leaders, somebody who has.
An actual link to the experienceof the people who receive support.
Let me introduce you and say, hello, Alan.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (01:06):
Hi, Jules.
Thanks.
Thanks very much.
That's kind of you to call me progressive.
I appreciate it.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (01:13):
Well, as we come to the end of this project, I think
one of the lovely things I have learned.
Is that there are people like youin positions to have influence that,
that have, um, ideas that resonatewith those of us who are looking at
(01:39):
life from a neurodivergent angle.
And I think that's, that's avery valuable thing for us.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: Yeah, absolutely.. (01:51):
undefined
Thanks, Jules.
I've been reflecting onour previous conversations
some of the issues we've touched onand some of the things that might be
left to explore, and I'm conscious thatYou know, we really need to spell out
(02:14):
what is a way forward to makesure that any community that is
responsible for supporting others canalign with the values of the people
that are, that it's supporting,if, for example, we are selecting
outcomes in the learning situation.
For, for a neurodivergent child, howare we going to ensure that those
(02:37):
outcomes align with what the child wants?
So that it's not too heavilyinfluenced by what others
think is right for that person.
Jules, that is not an easyquestion, and I'm going to use a
very kind of emotive explanationfor why it's not an easy question.
(03:00):
So, In 1949, the Nobel Prize forMedicine was won by Portuguese
physician named Edgar Monzi.
Now, Monzi won the Nobel Prize fordeveloping the leuctorotomy, which
is another word for a lobotomy.
(03:21):
The lobotomy , this obliterationof personhood and of the person's
neurology went on to be practiced ontens of thousands of people in the U.
S.
In the U.
K., in lower numbers, it wasa higher proportion of the
population, one of the mainproponents of this procedure in the U.
S.
was a man named Freeman.
(03:43):
We can imagine that.
Nobel Prize winning committee.
Yeah, one flew over thecuckoo's nest, precisely, it's
very evocative of that thing.
We can, we can imagine this NobelPrize winning, awarding committee
making a decision about who to award.
They presumably thought that theywere doing a good thing at that time.
(04:07):
And it's this idea that like the roadto hell is paved with good intentions.
And that is particularly the case, Ithink, in disability and mental health,
where the values and needs of one partof a community are allowed to obliterate
(04:28):
the personal autonomy of another.
So, given that, and given that they didn'tknow what they were doing was wrong, how
do we move forward to prevent those kindof things happening again in the future?
, you know, I've been ruminating to, tomy mind, a possible solution to that
(04:51):
is to lean into the human rights basedapproach to disability and mental health.
I think by locating the rightsat an individual level, it should
provide a framework to preventthose kind of community or
(05:14):
societal impacts on the individual,
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (05:18):
I think the way that will be edited is it will
probably stop when you say that you arefollowing the ideas of human rights.
very much.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (05:29):
Cool.
Whatever you think best there, Jules,you know, you've, you've done a
really good job at editing so far,
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (05:35):
I thank you for coming back and saying.
If this is really what we needto be talking about, the Human
Rights Act itself is under attack.
Absolutely.
The Human Rights Act is under attack fromquite a large part of the population here
in the UK that have been convinced thatthe Human Rights Act is other people from
(06:01):
other places interfering in the localpolitics, and they're not seeing it as
all human beings, protecting us all.
So I worry about only relying on the goodnature of the population of our respective
(06:24):
countries to embrace the Human Right Act.
Do you see where I might feel that?
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (06:32):
Yeah, I think it's, it's a, it's a
constant danger and the, you know,just the old adage, the pendulum
swings, just because we've made.
Progress in a particular directiondoes not mean that that progress
can stop and can even regress.
And there are incredibly dangerousideas within our societies at large
(06:59):
about how some individuals pose athreat to the broader community.
And I suppose that idea reachedits logical conclusion in the
eugenics movement, it was dominantin many areas of the world in the U.
S.
and the U.
K.
Deep like Dalton, the father ofeugenics, who coined the term, was
(07:19):
also a big proponent and developedIQ tests, , there's this kind of
dark history of classifying people,pathologizing their individuality
it's those tendencies that we reallyneed to be on guard for, I think.
You're an odd fella.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (07:41):
I'll take that as a compliment.
Well, you know,
I feel for you, actually.
I empathize with where you're coming from.
You're in a profession thatyou recognize has a dark past.
(08:02):
And you as a human being, Irecognize in you a want and a
need to make things better andchange things in a practical way.
And that's why you You know, become theperson you are in the Irish Society
for Behaviour Analysis, you know,unfortunately, I think you're an outlier.
(08:33):
And in these 20 programs, when they'reSealed up, finished, stopped, and put down
as a resource for people, and people comeback to them in the future and say, Wow,
I got what Alan was saying there now, or Igot what the other Alan was saying there,
(08:55):
or I got what Andy was saying there.
I think, because you're an outlier,
people are going to feelthey missed an opportunity.
Because when the things that yousay become More relevant to your
(09:15):
colleagues, the time will have passedfor grasping the opportunity to speak
directly to the autistic community.
They will have lost their patience.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (09:32):
Yeah.
I don't know where you hadto respond to that, Jules.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (09:37):
Okay.
Don't respond to that.
That's fine.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (09:39):
Yeah.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (09:40):
It's a year.
Today's the anniversary, almost, of Whenhere on Autistic Radio, we started the
big conversation, Behaviourism and Autism.
We've given it a good go,and we've achieved quite a
lot during that time for us.
As a group, we've achieved the abilityto prove that we are a very easy
(10:09):
forum, an easy format to come anddiscuss ideas in Autism, including a
difficult subject like Behaviourism.
So we've gained from this.
But at some point you have to say,we're no longer gaining the effort we
(10:29):
put into this is no longer bringingidea of benefit back to us that means
we can continue with it or fund it.
What do we do about that?
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (10:45):
You've committed time and resources to
that, you know, valuable time andresources to that, Gilles, you know,
there's no there's no doubting that.
We're here doing it, so that's obvious.
To start sustaining that , to lookfor opportunities to sustain this
conversation in a more collaborative way.
(11:05):
, other entities shouldering someof the burden of keeping the
conversation going, shouldering someof the responsibility and the cost
of keeping the conversation going.
You know, , I used sit on the rightscommittee and some of the people they'd
be there on a voluntary basis whileI was paid, being paid to be there.
Not only that, I wasgetting expenses to go down.
I was getting mileage to attend, whereasthey were not getting mileage to attend.
(11:30):
So there's, , obvious problems with,with that and how that, how that arises.
If, if one part of the relationshipis shouldering too much of the
responsibility, , that's not sustainable.
It's not, that's not equitable.
. Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:48):
I know behaviorists like numbers.
And I quite like numbers anddata and patterns myself.
There is a listenershipfor these conversations.
The demographic of those listenerships is, not, not exclusively amongst professionals
(12:09):
in autism, not just behaviorists, butother people interested in what you're
doing and, and how you deal with this.
A lot of people have appeared to havecome to this from my emails to say,
let's have a look at this car crash.
You know, let's, let's see what happenswhen the behaviorists talk to the
(12:31):
Autistic advocates, and it's almostlike going to a wrestling match for
them, as far as I can tell from theway they discuss it in emails to me.
A bit like, you know, a dogstanding up on hind legs.
Can they achieve it elegantlyand can they dance, you know?
(12:54):
That's it.
The other set of numbers is abouthow people share us or bring
attention to us through social media.
And I did an experiment with you guys.
I sent you out an open letter to say,come on guys, pull your finger out.
(13:19):
Join in, help us out here.
Tell other people in your profession.
What we're doing.
And there was a Friday when therewas a sudden jump in, in the amount
of people that listened to thebehaviorist conversations and a little
bit of a jump in the numbers for ourmore autistic based conversations.
(13:43):
So the professionals were probably,I infer having a little look at
what else we do, you know, justin case behind their backs, we're,
you know, we're Being difficult.
I don't know.
Or maybe because they're reallyinterested in, you know, what we
say when we're relaxed and okay.
(14:04):
You know, not in a forum where we'reput on the spot, but what we would
say naturally, probably more valuable,actually overhearing us talking
comfortably for me is a better resourcethan putting us on the spot and making
us perform in any kind of other arena.
But it's stopped.
(14:25):
Once.
The people I'd asked to do a little bitof a rally on social media, something they
may even be uncomfortable with, Once theyshared our posts, and once they shared
things that I put out there purposelyfor them, they did not get re shared.
Very far.
(14:48):
The way social media works, aswe know, is that one snooker ball
hits two snooker balls, and the twosnooker balls hit four snooker balls.
And then we have thischain reaction of interest.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (15:00):
If
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: there is interest. (15:01):
undefined
If it's cats walking on theirhind legs or somebody falling
over, that's how it works.
Amongst the behaviorist community,the people who put it out
there, it came to a dead stop.
That's very indicative.
(15:22):
That's very good data.
What does it indicate to you?
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (15:28):
I don't know.
I've been, you know, I've been obviouslyreceived that and I was one of the
people who shared evidently, you know,and actually you're the best one.
Yeah, and I suppose there is asaying in behavior analysis where
you don't speak beyond the data.
And if I were to start.
(15:49):
Making inferences about why I thinkthat happens, I would be speaking
beyond your data there, Joe's.
Many of the behavioral analyticscommunity, ISBA, . They may have
a small presence on LinkedIn, butthey're quite conservative and
reluctant to share or to put theirheads above the parapet in any way.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:15):
I thought you might say that.
Go on.
So I prepared myself, and I looked atthe next group of people, the people
who We're in the sharing and I saw themsharing four or five other things from
(16:39):
other people that then would get five ormore multiples of the amounts of share.
Right.
So I can directly compare.
People who shared our stuff andwhether that got re shared, to what
other people shared as well, thesame individuals to the same group of
(17:01):
people, and whether that went further.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: Yeah, I'm with you, Gilles. (17:03):
undefined
, when the facts change,Gilles, I change my mind.
. Jules-AutisticRadio.com: You know, there's no rights or wrongs in here.
I'm just trying to seeif this has a future.
When I withdraw, when I walk back and say,look, my door's always open, come here.
(17:25):
I've, I've got everything set up for you.
Will they use it?
And the absolute impression I have atthis point in time is no, they won't.
Yeah,
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (17:41):
let me come at it for a different way
then where do we want to see this?
We need the community of peoplethat are supported directing the
professional activities , Of aprofessional community, and that is not
just a query for behavioral science.
(18:02):
That is a query acrossevidence based practice.
, public and patient involvement.
So, PPI.
And the PPI is supposed to be thereto direct what is important in terms
of outcomes and what outcomes needto be included as the focus I think
(18:27):
that right at the center of behavioralanalysis, you should have social
validity and social validity is that.
being led by the views and values of thepeople who you're directly supporting.
That's central not only tobehavioral science, but to the wider
evidence based practice movement.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (18:51):
So if social validity is right at the center,
how is it that they're not jumpingon board the opportunity to speak
to quite a large group of veryeasy to talk to autistic people
(19:11):
that we've assembled for you.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (19:14):
I guess, you know, for the, for the , I
think you've described it before,Jules, person at the Coalfest,
person doing their day to day work.
They probably don't feel it as theirrole, or they would be very reticent to
do it because, you know, they'd feel,Oh, I'll get something wrong, or am
I qualified to speak to this subject?
(19:36):
And that could be someof the hesitation there.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: I don't feel for them. (19:40):
undefined
I don't feel for them.
I'm an autistic man withcommunicating difficulties.
Sometimes a man who actually can'tbring words out of his brain.
And you're asking me?
To forgive professionals, you're askingme to forgive a group of professionals
(20:09):
for being shy to come and speak tous as people almost representing
their customers, their clients.
That's rather pathetic.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (20:25):
Customers, I would have an issue with Jules as well.
You know, I feel it makes mefeel very uncomfortable to word
customers because it seems.
Very, you know, transactionalso really, I don't know.
And not knowing should be aspace that we're comfortable in.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (20:44):
Could you just explain that last piece for me?
Not knowing should bea space comfortable in.
Absolutely.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (20:55):
Yeah.
That is kind of like, to my mind.
That is central to both abehavior analytic view and to
an evidence based practice view.
This idea of not speaking beyondthe data, so not venturing into
areas where we just don't know.
Now, listen, I'm guilty of thatas much as the next person.
(21:17):
It's a, it's a very high bar to meet.
Trying to stop ourselves from speakingabout things that we don't understand or,
or know and speaking within, within the
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: observable and knowable space. (21:35):
undefined
Yeah.
Okay.
I think it's perfectly reasonable toassume a guy like me with communication
difficulties hasn't managed toexplain or express what he's thinking.
(21:57):
I'll try again, and thank youfor giving me the opportunity.
If your profession does not havethe confidence or bravery to
come alongside and speak with.
(22:19):
The group of people who they recognizehave communication difficulties and
differences because they themselves areafraid of the way their communication
will be interpreted or put across.
It does not gain respect from me.
(22:42):
I expect better.
And I also think I am a customerbecause I'm paying for it.
Thank you very much.
Almost everything, every piece ofresource that the professionals
receive come from me as the taxpayer.
They come from my businesses.
(23:04):
They come from my income tax.
I am the customer.
I do want you to be heldto account like a customer.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (23:17):
And absolutely, we should be held to account, Jules.
That is the function of anevidence based practice.
So, when I come to you and I make claimsabout being able to do something, Jules.
Let's say we make a claim that thepeople we are supporting are going
to experience less distress and loss.
less self injury, less harmingthemselves, harming others, less distress.
(23:42):
If we make that claim, we needto be able to demonstrate it.
And that is what we shouldexpect as a society.
And that is central to the evidencebased practice movement, central to
the question of behavioral science.
And it is a minimum standardthat needs to be met.
(24:05):
And all of those Delivering supportsto any individual need to be able to
demonstrate that minimum standard.
And unfortunately, that's not thecase in many, in many examples.
So, we, we need to refocus on evidencebased practice and that is how to ensure
(24:30):
quality for the consumer, if that's theword we want to use, and efficiency for
the taxpayer and a fair and just society.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (24:43):
Here in the UK, there's just been a government audit.
Independent Audit, and it'slooked at the money spent on SEND,
Special Educational Needs Support.
The broad brush strokes are, ofthe report, are that there's no
(25:08):
evidence that the money that'sbeing spent has any positive outcome
for the individuals involved.
That's the headline.
And here in the UK, the support they'retalking about in the main is is support
based on traditional behaviorist values.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (25:28):
I would challenge that, Jules, absolutely.
I would, I wouldabsolutely challenge that.
Which part?
I don't think that's, it's not based, it'snot based on behavioral principles at all.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:37):
Okay, go ahead.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (25:40):
It's not, it's just simply not, because like
you're only talking about, but a very,very small community of people that
actually, have skills in deliveringeither positive behavior support or
applied behavior analysis or anythingreally describing itself as behavioral.
But what you have is because of thebehavioral sciences success in developing
(26:02):
an evidence base, you have policy papersthat will come out and say you should
deliver a behavioral based support, butthen you don't have the resources to meet
that need for the people being supported.
And so you have this, this juncturebetween what is said in policy
and what's done in practice.
And that makes it look as thoughwe are recommending, or the society
(26:24):
is recommending, positive behavioursupport, behaviour best approaches,
but you don't have the skills ofthe people to deliver that need.
And therefore you end up with thissituation where you don't have any
quality outcomes, you don't have anyevidence based practice in reality.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (26:41):
I'm really glad I gave the opportunity to, to answer that.
I don't think that's how it's goingto play out in the politics here.
The politics here seems to be thatspecial and education needs is going
(27:03):
to be scapegoated into a situationwhere there's so much demand that
it's quite obvious that the taxpayercan't fund that kind of demand.
Yeah.
And it seems to me the way it's goingto swing round is that we're going to be
(27:25):
tried to convince as a population thatwe need to remove as much of the spending
resources because it's unfair for thispart of the population to take so much of
our collective will, collective resource.
(27:51):
I, I see a, a politics movingagainst SEND provision.
And I think autism is part of that.
I think the neurodivergence movementis making it look as though so much
resource would be necessary that thepopulation has to push back and say, no,
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (28:16):
well, you know, that would be very sad,
Jules, and that would ultimately.
mean people going without their needsbeing met, and a less inclusive society,
and a less rich, a less rich and vibrantsociety, where and a less rich, a less
(28:39):
rich and vibrant society, where We could,I think what you're saying is, is that
we could revert to a place where we'reblaming people for having the needs that
they, for having the needs that they have.
I hope not paraphrasing youtoo much there, Jules, but
that is a, that's a risk.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:58):
Yeah.
I think that's anundercurrent that's happening.
I still have to go back to thataudited report that you've disputed.
And the reason you've disputed is it'sI think because you're saying that your
profession hasn't had a good enoughchance to prove it can be done better.
(29:20):
More or less.
I'd be happy with
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (29:21):
that.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (29:22):
Okay.
And I'm saying I'm quite happy toaccept a civil servant put together
report that finds difficulty in findingvalue in the millions that are spent.
So, you're going to come back andsay, well They should have been
(29:45):
spending on you, and you can proveoutcomes, and you can measure them.
And then the autistic community isgoing to come back and say, yes, but
they've been measuring the wrong things.
How do we address this?
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: Beautiful, Gilles. (30:03):
undefined
You know, I think that's, that's verymuch a kind of, that's kind of, that is
where my thinking is at, effectively.
So, the community comes back and says,we're measuring the wrong things.
Fair enough.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's, that seems reasonable to me.
Because we think of Egas Manziwinning the Nobel Prize for
this, those hideous lobotomies.
(30:26):
And why was that?
Was because the outcomes were bequiet, be still, be quiet, be docile.
And those outcomes were valuable to thatcommunity, the ones who were running
the asylums and the institutions.
Then we think, okay, so we needto reframe all our outcomes.
We need to reframe our outcomes tobe human rights focused and focused
(30:47):
on the needs of the communitiesthat are receiving the support.
So how do we do that?
We have to build structures thatallow that to go on as an iterative
process, so there's continualfeedback loops into the outcomes.
And then in the same frame, we needa policy that is evidence based.
(31:07):
i.
e.
it is led by the outcomes.
So, that is, that is the inductivebehavior analytic, behavioral science
and evidence broad, broader than that.
It's an evidence based practice approachto policy development and delivery.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (31:27):
The next part of this, the bit you might not say.
So I'll say it for you, push in,
is that to determine what outcomes tomeasure, you need a full inclusion of
(31:52):
autistic people to interpret it for you.
And that's why I come back againto the conversation that I've been
doing this for a year now, and AndI'm not seeing your profession do the
things that you're advocating for.
I'm not seeing them include orreach out to us to make that happen.
(32:16):
And I think that's the keythat would potentially make
everything you do work better.
The key is actually embracing theautistic people who are able and willing
to help you reframe some things thatwill multiply the value of what you do.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (32:40):
We're very much on the same page about that, Gilles,
that I view that as the key as well.
I think we need.
Process, process, process.
So we need ways of continually checkingand continuing the conversation so
(33:01):
that the thinking can continue to berealigned to the values of the community.
Now that makes it sounds likevery unshifting sounds and how do
we really know, but that reallyis, is what's what's required.
There's the extreme urgency of now.
It's all very well talking about, oh,we're going to get things right in
(33:21):
the future, but what happens today andtomorrow, the day after, you know, there
are kind of, there's, there's situationsthat are happening today in the decisions
around the support people receive.
And they're very, they're very difficult,the society out there does not get
(33:42):
it right all the time, or, you know,even some of the time when it comes to
supporting the people that need support.
Harry-Autistic-Association.org: Yeah, it's all about, (33:53):
undefined
any positive change that is going to comeis very slow paced, and unfortunately
it seems in many ways that, Things andprogress is only made through other
people's, , really negative experiences
(34:15):
and while it's good that change can bemade, it's just very worrying that these
negative experiences and very, you know,very damaging experiences for many people
is going to happen for things to change.
Progress can be made, the conversationis always worthwhile having, just to
(34:35):
demonstrate that these things exist.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: Absolutely, Harry. (34:39):
undefined
I think, like, power givesup nothing without demand.
There has to be demandfor power to seek control.
So wherever that power lies, and Ithink some of the misramming in the
debate has been about putting thepower into the hands of the Behavioural
(35:00):
Analytics Community, whereas reallyit's, that's not where it is.
The Behavioural Analytics Communityis a very fringe community in
this, in this space that is.
pushing and has been agitatingfor evidence based practice.,
For a very particular form ofempirical evidence based practice.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (35:25):
I think actually if we're talking about
evidence based practice and how youcollect the evidence and the kind of.
study you do, speaking to autisticknowledge development would be very
helpful for you because they have modelsof analyzing what they do as they go
along, which means that they're very, veryreactive to the data as they go along.
(35:51):
I'd recommend Sean and Lila over autisticknowledge development, uh, an APO.
Just make a note
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA (35:59):
of that.
I wasn't aware of that.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: They're professionals and (36:01):
undefined
they're respected in Scotland,.
They have inroads into the professionand they're, they work alongside
the main charity in Scotland.
Instead of putting you on the spot here.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna speak directly toHarry Harry is the chairman of Autistic
(36:25):
Association, the autistic charity thatis funding this group of conversations.
So my question to Harry is, wouldAutistic Association in the future
be willing to at least partly fundan extension of this conversation?
(36:48):
Would they consider it at least?
Harry-Autistic-Association.org: Absolutely Jules. (36:51):
undefined
They do need to move forwardinto other things but.
We don't want to put, I mean,Yes, I'm basically saying yes.
Partly funded, of course.
Because there's a lotmore to be discussed.
I mean, we've just touchedthe surface, really.
And what I was speaking beforeabout was about how progressive
(37:14):
change is so, it takes so longto happen, if it happens at all.
And we've only just kindastarted the conversation.
A lot of work's been put into this.
A lot of money's been put into this.
Thank you.
But I've just started, so I'd beobviously willing to part fund,
uh, if we can move it forward, ifthere's the opportunity to do so.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: You said part fund? (37:35):
undefined
Yes.
Lucy-Dawson-Autie-Unmasked (37:41):
Where I am in my little part of the world, the services
are really lacking in terms of autism andhow they support people it got to the
point where I had to be very proactiveand actually go to the service provider.
I'm now an expert by experience butit's, it's not a paid position,
(38:02):
I volunteer and have to do it.
And it's almost a shame that people likeme are having to give their time for
free in order for everybody to benefit.
Alan-Tennyson-Chair-ISBA: That's absolutely Lucy that (38:14):
undefined
I completely agree with that.
If we really are committed to developingoutcomes that align with the values of
a, of a community, then we need to starttaking seriously those roles of expert by
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (38:31):
experience.
Well, that's the lastword today from Alan.
And thank you, Alan, fortaking part in this thing.
First series that I know of whereautistic people speak openly and frankly,
(38:56):
respectfully, with a growing numberof people in the behaviorist community
in the UK and Ireland, who are askingus to understand that they themselves
share many of the values that we share.
(39:19):
Much of this conversationhas, unfortunately, been
about trying to continue it.
Hopefully, that will happen.
But if it doesn't, There's20 programs out there.
(39:41):
As a resource.
For people who are new to behaviorism,new to advocacy in autism, to use as
some key and interest into our thinking.
(40:01):
Thanks for being part of that, Alan.
Thanks very much, Jules.
Thanks, Harry and Lucy.
ABA, PBS, Behaviorism,Big Autism Conversation.
is facilitated by Autistic Association,the entirely autistic charity, which funds
(40:21):
itself so these conversations can happen.
Autistic radio is personal and it'sinformal, which means that those
taking part speak only for themselves.
If they mention an organizationthat they work for or they're a
member of, they're not speakingon behalf of that organization.
(40:43):
We shouldn't take anyimplication from that.
It's also the case that people'sopinions change over time.
So while this recording Is there forever?
People change.
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