June 4, 2025 • 29 mins
Established Floortime practitioner Colette Ryan talks to us about what Floortime is:
How this whole-family approach helps autistic kids and the benefits of this alternative to ABA.
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Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:18):
Our next guest has been with us before.
It's Colette, Dr.
Colette Ryan.
We met her in a conversation,Introductions 2.
The introductions to series isexactly what it says, an introduction
to somebody, a subject we were, wesaw out there, something that we
(00:43):
thought might need following up.
And when Dr.
Ryan spoke with us, she answered a lotof questions and she also made me think
about other things to do with autism.
about other things todo with ABA in autism.
That was very valuable for me,and I needed to take a pause.
(01:06):
I needed to find out a little bitmore about where I stood in the end on
ABA before revisiting an alternativeway of thinking like floor time.
Does it make any sense to you, Dr.
Ryan, that I decided toframe it in that way?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (01:27):
I think that That reframing is going around all over the
world, that wondering about ABA, thewondering about our, our thoughts on ABA
and how they relate to what the autisticcommunity is telling us about ABA.
(01:48):
So I think it's something that weall need to come to terms with.
What are we seeing in ABA that we do like?
And what are we seeing in ABAthat we don't like, and then
figuring out why we don't likeit, and what we can do about it.
I'm sure there are plenty ofpeople who look at floor time the
(02:10):
same way, and we want them to.
What do you like about floor time?
What might you not like about floor time?
And how can we support you on those thingsthat you might not like about floor time?
Floor time is hard.
It's not cookie cutter, definitely,it's, uh, there isn't a manual that
(02:31):
says first you do this, and then youdo that, and then you do that, and so
it's much harder than an ABA program is.
And, and that's somethingthat we all have to realize.
The biggest difference, Ithink, between ABA and Floortime
is the relationship piece.
And the research is telling us thatrelationship based interventions
(02:55):
are the ones that are the best.
They're the ones that supportneurodiversity and not try to
change it, because as a floor timer,I don't want to change anyone.
I want to provide support.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (03:08):
That's a really, uh, lovely way to be thinking about this.
Like before, when we spoke toyou, I noticed the, the balance
in the way that you look at this.
There's something that.
is very attractive about the wayyou describe what you're doing
(03:29):
or what you're advocating for.
That is very appealing becauseof that balance that I hear.
It does not feel destructive.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (03:41):
My job is not to tell somebody else
what to do and what not to do.
My job is to provide the supports that anindividual needs to make their decisions.
As a floor timer, And, and the work thatI currently am doing as a floor timer.
I'm supporting parents.
That's a big piece of what I get to doright now is to support parents, but I'm
(04:05):
going to support parents in their visionof parenting, not my vision of parenting.
And so as a floor timer, I, I know howto attune to what parents need so that
then the parents can support their child.
in the way that fits into theirfamily, their community, their
culture, their religion, their locationin the world, their environment.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (04:30):
I ended up with a different relationship with ABA than I
expected once I started considering it.
And I think that's pertinentto this discussion.
Everything around parents decisionsto do with floor time will have some
kind of background colored by ABA.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (04:50):
Yes.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (04:51):
Yeah.
Does that make sense in your context?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (04:55):
It does.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (04:56):
Yeah.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (04:56):
It absolutely does.
But I'm, and I'm not sure if yourealize the word that you use
was your relationship with ABA.
And as a floor timer, I'm all aboutrelationships, so I'm wondering if you
realize that you called it a relationship.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (05:16):
I had to look at ABA seriously if I was to speak at all
out in the public arenas about autism.
It felt like it was the Conversation thatwas not happening that needed to happen.
(05:36):
I think flaw time's partof that conversation.
There's a difference in what I think now.
It's, uh, it's about pragmatism, I think.
The initial impression you get of ABAis one that is based on its history.
And there is a framework outthere of professionals who call
(05:58):
themselves something to do withbehaviorism, and it already exists.
It's a Wild West, and I am moreconcerned about the Wild West
aspect and the lack of regulation.
of people who are dealing with autisticpeople who are a vulnerable group.
(06:23):
I, I think I'm going to have to make anawful lot of compromises in my feelings
about ABA to protect the largest numberof people from poor practice in things
that have a word to do with behaviorism.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (06:42):
Absolutely, and you're right, there are
a lot of individuals whohave been reporting on ABA.
They've been researching on ABA.
It's been, it's been decadesthat ABA has been around us.
We, we know that.
And they had a pretty firm holdon the treatment of individuals
(07:07):
with autism and neurodiversities.
And I have to wonder about the why.
If you look at what we know aboutbehaviorism, It's, uh, it started
many, many years ago with theresearch that we had at that time.
Now we have lots more research andwe have gained a bigger understanding
(07:31):
of what autism is, what the brain islike, what the sensory system is like.
And my feeling is as we've gainedthis wonderful knowledge, we
need to apply that knowledge.
And we need to start using that knowledge.
There are individuals who saythat they're doing new ABA,
(07:56):
or a different version of ABA.
And I wonder where, where and why?
Where did they get their informationabout what needs to be different?
And why did they determinethat it needed to be different?
I'm going to look back atmore than just Skinner.
(08:16):
In our research over the years, wethink about Vygotsky and him talking
about learning being a relationship.
We talk about Bandura, who told usabout being, uh, having self efficacy.
An individual needs to feelsuccessful in their own right.
We have Bradford Brenner, who'stalked to us about communities
(08:39):
and the world around a child.
We need to do better,now that we know better.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (08:47):
There's a, there's a distilled truth position
in this, around the concept ofidentity, groupings, people flocking
together as a type of person.
What I see from the history of ABA is acertain way of thinking that comes from a
(09:08):
prescriptive world, It comes from a worldof McCarthyism, or it comes from a world
of right wing politics, or it comes froma world of fundamental Christian beliefs
about absolutes and rights and wrongs.
That's my gut feelingabout much of behaviorism.
(09:30):
So, it's not just an intellectualthought for behaviorists, it's actually
a belief system that helps them tomake sense of the world around them.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (09:43):
Yes, yes, and that goes back to the early research
that, of behaviorists, who saidthat no individual can learn until
they're taught it by another person.
And, and we know that that's not true.
We know that individuals learn fromtheir environment, from their play,
from interactions with others.
(10:06):
Also, I'm thinking about somethingyou said about the identity of an
individual, making me think aboutthe labels that we put on individuals
when we try to identify who they are.
But we're doing that to another person.
And can we truly identifywho another person is?
(10:27):
By just applying the label to them and,and as a floor timer, the diagnosis
that, or the label that an individualis given means nothing to me because I
look at a profile, not, not a diagnosis.
So I'm thinking about the idea oflabeling and assigning an individual
(10:47):
a, a label according to my own judgmentof their life, their interactions,
their play, their learning.
And, and for me, that doesn't.
Doesn't quite sit right.
Maurice-ELAS-Autistic-Group (11:01):
Hi, I'm wondering in passing if you're able
to guide the parents not to Assignlabels as well to know the cultural
context and everything that's alook beyond them to the individual,
probably a difficult one sometimes.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:18):
How do you manage to get that across to the parents?
Are the parents receptive to this?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (11:23):
I can say that usually parents are receptive because
they've come to Floortime for a reason.
Floortime is not usually just be assigned.
intervention.
Parents may have a different interventionand then they come to Floortime
because the other word didn't work.
It supports their ability tobe the parent that they wanted.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:47):
The conversation there was about the receptiveness of the
parents and how, because we hear aboutthe autism mum as a stereotype, how does
somebody manage to change their ideas?
(12:08):
from the prevailing wisdom out there thatis quite clearly made available to them.
You hear me tit totting about this?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (12:22):
I do.
I do.
And I have compassion for you forhaving to tiptoe around the topic.
But let's not tiptoe around it.
Let's instead address the factthat for some individuals,
Certain models or certain ways ofsupport, or we can use that word
(12:43):
intervention, are not appropriate.
If an individual is not regulated withinthe world, meaning they're not able to
take in the sensory information fromthe outside world, and The internal
world of the individual, if they're notable to make sense of that, if a world
(13:07):
doesn't feel safe to them because it'stoo loud, too noisy, maybe the touches
that they get are just not right.
That is not an individual who's goingto be able to sit for discrete trials.
It's not going to work.
And so the, the intervention thatmight have been prescribed is not
(13:30):
appropriate for that individual.
And I want that to be okay.
I want people to say, you know, ABAjust wasn't right for this individual.
Let's try something else, something thatwill support safety, that will support
regulation, and then eventually maybewe'll be able to get to those, those
(13:52):
strict academics that are, are achievedthrough more of the discrete trials.
But for right now, let's work onsafety, regulation, and engagement.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: I hear a passion there. (14:03):
undefined
I hear somebody carefullymeasuring their words.
I enjoy the power of that.
I enjoy the sound of youcarefully weighing the words as
you move through your sentence.
(14:25):
I also like what I hearabout, here's the gateway.
The gateway is this.
The gateway is about regulation.
The gateway is aboutenabling self regulation.
It's about self.
The gateway is, uh, This is the onething that, if you as a parent are
struggling, this is the thing that'sgoing to be frustrating you the most.
(14:47):
I'm, I'm a, I'm autistic, so I wasa child, but I'm also a parent, and
those times where it's impossibleto regulate, In comparison to the
outside world, they're the times thatcreate most difficulty for parents.
They're the, they're the bondingmovements, moments on mum's net, aren't
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (15:11):
they?
Absolutely.
And I'm going to go even belowregulation and think about safety.
And, and what we know now about safetyis that it's a perceived sense of safety.
True story.
I don't feel safe around a frog.
It's not, I just don't like frogs.
And so I am able to avoid frogs becauseit's, uh, it makes me feel safe and
(15:38):
more well regulated and I can engage.
And so now I'm thinking about a child whomight not feel safe around loud noises.
If we can reduce the volume.
If I can reduce my own volume, if I canmatch where they are in their arousal
(15:58):
level and use my affect, I might beable to get better interaction with
that individual because they feel safer.
And why is my safety around frogs anydifferent from their safety around noise?
It's safety.
We all want to feel safe.
I think what
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:17):
I remember you saying the last time we spoke was
something along the lines of adjoiningthe person where they were inside the
envelope of that time and that experiencethat they were having at that moment.
And it feels to me that that'ssomething really, that it's difficult
(16:38):
for somebody who isn't a parent to do.
It, it, it seems like that'swhere the parent should be.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (16:45):
True.
If the parent has been supported inunderstanding the importance of meeting
the child where they are, but again withdifferent versions of a more behavioral
approach, parents are being told not toaccept that the child doesn't feel safe
(17:06):
or not to worry about them being regulatedor engaged because it was more important
that the individual follow the direction.
Autistic.
If we're going to support children andfamilies and caregivers and parents, I
think we need to allow the, the, we needto give permission for a parent to just
(17:28):
be with their child and not think thatthey have to do something all the time.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (17:33):
I can't help but agree with what you're saying there.
It, it just seems Embeddedwithin the relationship of a
parent child, irrespective ofthe autism part of the equation.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (17:52):
Absolutely.
Just because there is adiagnosis doesn't mean that the
individual should lack agency.
should lack, you know, theirown developing sense of self.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (18:04):
How can floor time be something that proposes that it
maintains a person's agency, at the sametime as requesting something to change?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (18:23):
The, the sense of agency, the sense of self.
is embedded in our first sixdevelopmental capacities as floor timers.
It's part of capacity four, where anindividual is able to initiate their
own ideas, and maybe they can tell ussomehow about what their idea is, and
(18:47):
then we follow that individual's lead.
We provide them with the support thatthey need to have their idea come to life.
If the idea is, uh, that the individualhas, is to stack with blocks, well then
as a floor timer, I'm going to stackwith blocks, because that's their idea.
(19:10):
In this moment, I'm going to meetthem where they are, and I'm going
to attune to what they want, andthat's playing with blocks, and
so that's what we're going to do.
And then as that individual continuesto develop, Their ideas may be
around the book that they want toread, or the, the, the puzzle that
(19:34):
they want to do, as opposed to whatsomebody else might make them to do.
If I go even further back thanthat, though, and think about what
provides joy for an individual.
What do they like to do?
And for some individuals, it can besomething as small as, as bobbing a
(19:58):
piece of thread in front of their eyes.
And if that's what they're enjoying inthat moment, that's their idea, then I'm
going to get my own thread, and I'm goingto show them how great bobbing thread
really is, because we can do it together.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (20:14):
This fascinates me, because it feels, you Very natural,
and it feels very much my remembranceof being the parent of a young child.
When did people move away from this?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (20:34):
Isn't it amazing?
Yes.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: When did that happen? (20:37):
undefined
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (20:38):
It happened back when behaviorism became ABA.
And at that moment, families wereseeing changes in their children.
I can remember watching Dr.
Irelia.
Lavasse on stage talking about howhe could teach a child to say mama
(20:59):
and, and parents were just so happyabout it because their child was
speaking and the child was saying mama.
But on the same stage was Dr.
Greenspan, Dr.
Stanley Greenspan, whodeveloped floor time.
And he said, Well, yes, I can,I can support an individual to,
(21:20):
to say mama, but I can also helpthem to realize who mama is.
Mama is the person that hugs me, thatgives me my juice boxes, that puts me in
bed at night, and makes me feel so good.
I think what was taken out of, Ofdevelopment, with a more behavioral
(21:42):
approach, was emotions, feelings,affect, the desire to be with another
person, the desire to play with a toythat feels really good to me, in more
of a traditional ABA approach, manytimes the favorite toy, or the favorite
play thing of an individual is takenaway until the child performs, that,
(22:07):
that doesn't support a sense of agency.
It actually, it takes it away, and so asa floor timer, I, part of what I get to
do is to support parents in realizing thejoy that is their child and the joy of
what the child is really having fun with.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (22:27):
This has come about because of our
social organization, hasn't it?
It's come, it's come about throughinsurance based medicine, creating
products that have things thatyou can count and measure, even
(22:47):
if those measurements and countingbear little resemblance sometimes
to the experience of the individual.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (22:57):
True, true.
But it also comes out of acompliance based mindset.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (23:03):
Both of which come from cultural issues that
run through our society and alwayswill be there as human beings.
We create these, these waysof being throughout history.
Autistic people haven't yet diedout, they've continued to breed and
they've continued to keep their geneswithin the gene pool of humanity.
(23:27):
I'm wondering if, if floor time is a wayof parenting, a way of supporting and a
way of improving the lot, improving theodds for people whose genes might have
an absolute set of individual advantagesthat are useful to us as a group and
it just make people's lives easier.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (23:45):
Absolutely.
However, I don't want to just pigeon toefloor time for individuals with autism.
I think, I think if we think about floortime as a way of being with another
individual, with another person, withanother, with, within a relationship,
(24:08):
if we think about the relationships andhow we are being with another person,
that's how we support development.
We support developmentthrough relationships.
All learning happens in the contextof a relationship, we know that.
And, and the first thing that we do ashuman beings is develop relationships.
(24:31):
You know, from birth, we, wedevelop relationships for survival,
because we're not able to survivewithout someone to take care of us.
So, we are born with attachmentpromoting behaviors, So that
somebody will take care of us.
And then that relationship changesfrom just survival to trust and safety.
(24:53):
Wow, this person makes me feel good.
And then we move from that to thoserelationships built on love, and
caring, and feeling good togetherthat support a secure attachment.
And we all do that.
Every one of us looks to developrelationships, and as a floor
(25:15):
timer, that's what, that's what wesupport, is developing relationships.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:20):
Okay, so if in my simple thinking I have to find the way
where things branch and where things fork,
the fork seems to be, if you go inone direction, You're aiming towards
conformity, the expression of theculture around you, the imposition
(25:40):
of the culture around you, theimposition of the ways of behavior
that are acceptable in your societythat is decided by an outside force.
That's one way.
And the, uh, the cleft, the directionthat is taken, that is different
is moving towards relationshipswith other individuals that.
(26:06):
are forging an acceptance ofwhat is, what exists already and
what, how people actually are.
So fitting together the oddnessesof people rather than trying
to stamp them into one box.
And
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (26:22):
as a floor timer, we call that goodness of fit.
So I have to find goodness of fit.
with individuals that I'm with.
And for some individuals thatI'm with, a good fit will mean
that I need to have a big affect.
And for some individuals, it meansI need to have a smaller affect.
(26:43):
And the idea, the idea of a goodfit means, Our relationship feels
good to both of us, not just to me.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (26:51):
I think often programs have jargon around
them, and I can see the point of that.
I can see the usefulness of having a labeland a talisman, something to remind you
a jogger, something to hang your hat on.
I often wonder if really good ideas getdismissed on the presentation of them.
(27:15):
It's almost as though there's a prejudicein society against things that sound
natural and normal and female based,like mothering, nurturing, parenting,
things that have been perhaps unfairlypushed into one group of people's domain.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (27:38):
And, and do we need to leave it there?
Or can we be the generation thatsays, That parenting is not a skill.
Parenting is a relationship.
And I think every parent searchesto find a good fit with their child.
I think every parent tries toattune to what their child needs.
(28:03):
And while those might be part of thelanguage of Flortime, I think they're part
of the language that we use as humans.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:12):
That is a perfect place to leave this conversation.
Leave it, hook it, think aboutit, run it back, take some time.
It's an absolute pleasurehearing about Flawed Time again.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (28:31):
Thank you so much.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:32):
And Dr Colette Ryan, we're going to be asking you to
return to us, continue to come in depthto explain some of this thinking to us.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (28:43):
Wonderful.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: Thank you very much for today. (28:44):
undefined
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (28:45):
Thank you.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:47):
Spectrum Conversations is an autistic radio
production for Autistic Radio.
There's plenty more like this on ourwebsite, but what do you want to make?
What do you want to hear?
Why don't you be the voice out here?
Come make it with ushere at Autistic Radio.
Our next guest has been with us before.
It's Colette, Dr.
Colette Ryan.
We met her in a conversation,Introductions 2.
The introductions to series isexactly what it says, an introduction
to somebody, a subject we were, wesaw out there, something that we
(00:43):
thought might need following up.
And when Dr.
Ryan spoke with us, she answered a lotof questions and she also made me think
about other things to do with autism.
about other things todo with ABA in autism.
That was very valuable for me,and I needed to take a pause.
(01:06):
I needed to find out a little bitmore about where I stood in the end on
ABA before revisiting an alternativeway of thinking like floor time.
Does it make any sense to you, Dr.
Ryan, that I decided toframe it in that way?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (01:27):
I think that That reframing is going around all over the
world, that wondering about ABA, thewondering about our, our thoughts on ABA
and how they relate to what the autisticcommunity is telling us about ABA.
(01:48):
So I think it's something that weall need to come to terms with.
What are we seeing in ABA that we do like?
And what are we seeing in ABAthat we don't like, and then
figuring out why we don't likeit, and what we can do about it.
I'm sure there are plenty ofpeople who look at floor time the
(02:10):
same way, and we want them to.
What do you like about floor time?
What might you not like about floor time?
And how can we support you on those thingsthat you might not like about floor time?
Floor time is hard.
It's not cookie cutter, definitely,it's, uh, there isn't a manual that
(02:31):
says first you do this, and then youdo that, and then you do that, and so
it's much harder than an ABA program is.
And, and that's somethingthat we all have to realize.
The biggest difference, Ithink, between ABA and Floortime
is the relationship piece.
And the research is telling us thatrelationship based interventions
(02:55):
are the ones that are the best.
They're the ones that supportneurodiversity and not try to
change it, because as a floor timer,I don't want to change anyone.
I want to provide support.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (03:08):
That's a really, uh, lovely way to be thinking about this.
Like before, when we spoke toyou, I noticed the, the balance
in the way that you look at this.
There's something that.
is very attractive about the wayyou describe what you're doing
(03:29):
or what you're advocating for.
That is very appealing becauseof that balance that I hear.
It does not feel destructive.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (03:41):
My job is not to tell somebody else
what to do and what not to do.
My job is to provide the supports that anindividual needs to make their decisions.
As a floor timer, And, and the work thatI currently am doing as a floor timer.
I'm supporting parents.
That's a big piece of what I get to doright now is to support parents, but I'm
(04:05):
going to support parents in their visionof parenting, not my vision of parenting.
And so as a floor timer, I, I know howto attune to what parents need so that
then the parents can support their child.
in the way that fits into theirfamily, their community, their
culture, their religion, their locationin the world, their environment.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (04:30):
I ended up with a different relationship with ABA than I
expected once I started considering it.
And I think that's pertinentto this discussion.
Everything around parents decisionsto do with floor time will have some
kind of background colored by ABA.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (04:50):
Yes.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (04:51):
Yeah.
Does that make sense in your context?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (04:55):
It does.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (04:56):
Yeah.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (04:56):
It absolutely does.
But I'm, and I'm not sure if yourealize the word that you use
was your relationship with ABA.
And as a floor timer, I'm all aboutrelationships, so I'm wondering if you
realize that you called it a relationship.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (05:16):
I had to look at ABA seriously if I was to speak at all
out in the public arenas about autism.
It felt like it was the Conversation thatwas not happening that needed to happen.
(05:36):
I think flaw time's partof that conversation.
There's a difference in what I think now.
It's, uh, it's about pragmatism, I think.
The initial impression you get of ABAis one that is based on its history.
And there is a framework outthere of professionals who call
(05:58):
themselves something to do withbehaviorism, and it already exists.
It's a Wild West, and I am moreconcerned about the Wild West
aspect and the lack of regulation.
of people who are dealing with autisticpeople who are a vulnerable group.
(06:23):
I, I think I'm going to have to make anawful lot of compromises in my feelings
about ABA to protect the largest numberof people from poor practice in things
that have a word to do with behaviorism.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (06:42):
Absolutely, and you're right, there are
a lot of individuals whohave been reporting on ABA.
They've been researching on ABA.
It's been, it's been decadesthat ABA has been around us.
We, we know that.
And they had a pretty firm holdon the treatment of individuals
(07:07):
with autism and neurodiversities.
And I have to wonder about the why.
If you look at what we know aboutbehaviorism, It's, uh, it started
many, many years ago with theresearch that we had at that time.
Now we have lots more research andwe have gained a bigger understanding
(07:31):
of what autism is, what the brain islike, what the sensory system is like.
And my feeling is as we've gainedthis wonderful knowledge, we
need to apply that knowledge.
And we need to start using that knowledge.
There are individuals who saythat they're doing new ABA,
(07:56):
or a different version of ABA.
And I wonder where, where and why?
Where did they get their informationabout what needs to be different?
And why did they determinethat it needed to be different?
I'm going to look back atmore than just Skinner.
(08:16):
In our research over the years, wethink about Vygotsky and him talking
about learning being a relationship.
We talk about Bandura, who told usabout being, uh, having self efficacy.
An individual needs to feelsuccessful in their own right.
We have Bradford Brenner, who'stalked to us about communities
(08:39):
and the world around a child.
We need to do better,now that we know better.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (08:47):
There's a, there's a distilled truth position
in this, around the concept ofidentity, groupings, people flocking
together as a type of person.
What I see from the history of ABA is acertain way of thinking that comes from a
(09:08):
prescriptive world, It comes from a worldof McCarthyism, or it comes from a world
of right wing politics, or it comes froma world of fundamental Christian beliefs
about absolutes and rights and wrongs.
That's my gut feelingabout much of behaviorism.
(09:30):
So, it's not just an intellectualthought for behaviorists, it's actually
a belief system that helps them tomake sense of the world around them.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (09:43):
Yes, yes, and that goes back to the early research
that, of behaviorists, who saidthat no individual can learn until
they're taught it by another person.
And, and we know that that's not true.
We know that individuals learn fromtheir environment, from their play,
from interactions with others.
(10:06):
Also, I'm thinking about somethingyou said about the identity of an
individual, making me think aboutthe labels that we put on individuals
when we try to identify who they are.
But we're doing that to another person.
And can we truly identifywho another person is?
(10:27):
By just applying the label to them and,and as a floor timer, the diagnosis
that, or the label that an individualis given means nothing to me because I
look at a profile, not, not a diagnosis.
So I'm thinking about the idea oflabeling and assigning an individual
(10:47):
a, a label according to my own judgmentof their life, their interactions,
their play, their learning.
And, and for me, that doesn't.
Doesn't quite sit right.
Maurice-ELAS-Autistic-Group (11:01):
Hi, I'm wondering in passing if you're able
to guide the parents not to Assignlabels as well to know the cultural
context and everything that's alook beyond them to the individual,
probably a difficult one sometimes.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:18):
How do you manage to get that across to the parents?
Are the parents receptive to this?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (11:23):
I can say that usually parents are receptive because
they've come to Floortime for a reason.
Floortime is not usually just be assigned.
intervention.
Parents may have a different interventionand then they come to Floortime
because the other word didn't work.
It supports their ability tobe the parent that they wanted.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:47):
The conversation there was about the receptiveness of the
parents and how, because we hear aboutthe autism mum as a stereotype, how does
somebody manage to change their ideas?
(12:08):
from the prevailing wisdom out there thatis quite clearly made available to them.
You hear me tit totting about this?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (12:22):
I do.
I do.
And I have compassion for you forhaving to tiptoe around the topic.
But let's not tiptoe around it.
Let's instead address the factthat for some individuals,
Certain models or certain ways ofsupport, or we can use that word
(12:43):
intervention, are not appropriate.
If an individual is not regulated withinthe world, meaning they're not able to
take in the sensory information fromthe outside world, and The internal
world of the individual, if they're notable to make sense of that, if a world
(13:07):
doesn't feel safe to them because it'stoo loud, too noisy, maybe the touches
that they get are just not right.
That is not an individual who's goingto be able to sit for discrete trials.
It's not going to work.
And so the, the intervention thatmight have been prescribed is not
(13:30):
appropriate for that individual.
And I want that to be okay.
I want people to say, you know, ABAjust wasn't right for this individual.
Let's try something else, something thatwill support safety, that will support
regulation, and then eventually maybewe'll be able to get to those, those
(13:52):
strict academics that are, are achievedthrough more of the discrete trials.
But for right now, let's work onsafety, regulation, and engagement.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: I hear a passion there. (14:03):
undefined
I hear somebody carefullymeasuring their words.
I enjoy the power of that.
I enjoy the sound of youcarefully weighing the words as
you move through your sentence.
(14:25):
I also like what I hearabout, here's the gateway.
The gateway is this.
The gateway is about regulation.
The gateway is aboutenabling self regulation.
It's about self.
The gateway is, uh, This is the onething that, if you as a parent are
struggling, this is the thing that'sgoing to be frustrating you the most.
(14:47):
I'm, I'm a, I'm autistic, so I wasa child, but I'm also a parent, and
those times where it's impossibleto regulate, In comparison to the
outside world, they're the times thatcreate most difficulty for parents.
They're the, they're the bondingmovements, moments on mum's net, aren't
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (15:11):
they?
Absolutely.
And I'm going to go even belowregulation and think about safety.
And, and what we know now about safetyis that it's a perceived sense of safety.
True story.
I don't feel safe around a frog.
It's not, I just don't like frogs.
And so I am able to avoid frogs becauseit's, uh, it makes me feel safe and
(15:38):
more well regulated and I can engage.
And so now I'm thinking about a child whomight not feel safe around loud noises.
If we can reduce the volume.
If I can reduce my own volume, if I canmatch where they are in their arousal
(15:58):
level and use my affect, I might beable to get better interaction with
that individual because they feel safer.
And why is my safety around frogs anydifferent from their safety around noise?
It's safety.
We all want to feel safe.
I think what
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:17):
I remember you saying the last time we spoke was
something along the lines of adjoiningthe person where they were inside the
envelope of that time and that experiencethat they were having at that moment.
And it feels to me that that'ssomething really, that it's difficult
(16:38):
for somebody who isn't a parent to do.
It, it, it seems like that'swhere the parent should be.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (16:45):
True.
If the parent has been supported inunderstanding the importance of meeting
the child where they are, but again withdifferent versions of a more behavioral
approach, parents are being told not toaccept that the child doesn't feel safe
(17:06):
or not to worry about them being regulatedor engaged because it was more important
that the individual follow the direction.
Autistic.
If we're going to support children andfamilies and caregivers and parents, I
think we need to allow the, the, we needto give permission for a parent to just
(17:28):
be with their child and not think thatthey have to do something all the time.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (17:33):
I can't help but agree with what you're saying there.
It, it just seems Embeddedwithin the relationship of a
parent child, irrespective ofthe autism part of the equation.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (17:52):
Absolutely.
Just because there is adiagnosis doesn't mean that the
individual should lack agency.
should lack, you know, theirown developing sense of self.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (18:04):
How can floor time be something that proposes that it
maintains a person's agency, at the sametime as requesting something to change?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (18:23):
The, the sense of agency, the sense of self.
is embedded in our first sixdevelopmental capacities as floor timers.
It's part of capacity four, where anindividual is able to initiate their
own ideas, and maybe they can tell ussomehow about what their idea is, and
(18:47):
then we follow that individual's lead.
We provide them with the support thatthey need to have their idea come to life.
If the idea is, uh, that the individualhas, is to stack with blocks, well then
as a floor timer, I'm going to stackwith blocks, because that's their idea.
(19:10):
In this moment, I'm going to meetthem where they are, and I'm going
to attune to what they want, andthat's playing with blocks, and
so that's what we're going to do.
And then as that individual continuesto develop, Their ideas may be
around the book that they want toread, or the, the, the puzzle that
(19:34):
they want to do, as opposed to whatsomebody else might make them to do.
If I go even further back thanthat, though, and think about what
provides joy for an individual.
What do they like to do?
And for some individuals, it can besomething as small as, as bobbing a
(19:58):
piece of thread in front of their eyes.
And if that's what they're enjoying inthat moment, that's their idea, then I'm
going to get my own thread, and I'm goingto show them how great bobbing thread
really is, because we can do it together.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (20:14):
This fascinates me, because it feels, you Very natural,
and it feels very much my remembranceof being the parent of a young child.
When did people move away from this?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (20:34):
Isn't it amazing?
Yes.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: When did that happen? (20:37):
undefined
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (20:38):
It happened back when behaviorism became ABA.
And at that moment, families wereseeing changes in their children.
I can remember watching Dr.
Irelia.
Lavasse on stage talking about howhe could teach a child to say mama
(20:59):
and, and parents were just so happyabout it because their child was
speaking and the child was saying mama.
But on the same stage was Dr.
Greenspan, Dr.
Stanley Greenspan, whodeveloped floor time.
And he said, Well, yes, I can,I can support an individual to,
(21:20):
to say mama, but I can also helpthem to realize who mama is.
Mama is the person that hugs me, thatgives me my juice boxes, that puts me in
bed at night, and makes me feel so good.
I think what was taken out of, Ofdevelopment, with a more behavioral
(21:42):
approach, was emotions, feelings,affect, the desire to be with another
person, the desire to play with a toythat feels really good to me, in more
of a traditional ABA approach, manytimes the favorite toy, or the favorite
play thing of an individual is takenaway until the child performs, that,
(22:07):
that doesn't support a sense of agency.
It actually, it takes it away, and so asa floor timer, I, part of what I get to
do is to support parents in realizing thejoy that is their child and the joy of
what the child is really having fun with.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (22:27):
This has come about because of our
social organization, hasn't it?
It's come, it's come about throughinsurance based medicine, creating
products that have things thatyou can count and measure, even
(22:47):
if those measurements and countingbear little resemblance sometimes
to the experience of the individual.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (22:57):
True, true.
But it also comes out of acompliance based mindset.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (23:03):
Both of which come from cultural issues that
run through our society and alwayswill be there as human beings.
We create these, these waysof being throughout history.
Autistic people haven't yet diedout, they've continued to breed and
they've continued to keep their geneswithin the gene pool of humanity.
(23:27):
I'm wondering if, if floor time is a wayof parenting, a way of supporting and a
way of improving the lot, improving theodds for people whose genes might have
an absolute set of individual advantagesthat are useful to us as a group and
it just make people's lives easier.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (23:45):
Absolutely.
However, I don't want to just pigeon toefloor time for individuals with autism.
I think, I think if we think about floortime as a way of being with another
individual, with another person, withanother, with, within a relationship,
(24:08):
if we think about the relationships andhow we are being with another person,
that's how we support development.
We support developmentthrough relationships.
All learning happens in the contextof a relationship, we know that.
And, and the first thing that we do ashuman beings is develop relationships.
(24:31):
You know, from birth, we, wedevelop relationships for survival,
because we're not able to survivewithout someone to take care of us.
So, we are born with attachmentpromoting behaviors, So that
somebody will take care of us.
And then that relationship changesfrom just survival to trust and safety.
(24:53):
Wow, this person makes me feel good.
And then we move from that to thoserelationships built on love, and
caring, and feeling good togetherthat support a secure attachment.
And we all do that.
Every one of us looks to developrelationships, and as a floor
(25:15):
timer, that's what, that's what wesupport, is developing relationships.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:20):
Okay, so if in my simple thinking I have to find the way
where things branch and where things fork,
the fork seems to be, if you go inone direction, You're aiming towards
conformity, the expression of theculture around you, the imposition
(25:40):
of the culture around you, theimposition of the ways of behavior
that are acceptable in your societythat is decided by an outside force.
That's one way.
And the, uh, the cleft, the directionthat is taken, that is different
is moving towards relationshipswith other individuals that.
(26:06):
are forging an acceptance ofwhat is, what exists already and
what, how people actually are.
So fitting together the oddnessesof people rather than trying
to stamp them into one box.
And
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (26:22):
as a floor timer, we call that goodness of fit.
So I have to find goodness of fit.
with individuals that I'm with.
And for some individuals thatI'm with, a good fit will mean
that I need to have a big affect.
And for some individuals, it meansI need to have a smaller affect.
(26:43):
And the idea, the idea of a goodfit means, Our relationship feels
good to both of us, not just to me.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (26:51):
I think often programs have jargon around
them, and I can see the point of that.
I can see the usefulness of having a labeland a talisman, something to remind you
a jogger, something to hang your hat on.
I often wonder if really good ideas getdismissed on the presentation of them.
(27:15):
It's almost as though there's a prejudicein society against things that sound
natural and normal and female based,like mothering, nurturing, parenting,
things that have been perhaps unfairlypushed into one group of people's domain.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (27:38):
And, and do we need to leave it there?
Or can we be the generation thatsays, That parenting is not a skill.
Parenting is a relationship.
And I think every parent searchesto find a good fit with their child.
I think every parent tries toattune to what their child needs.
(28:03):
And while those might be part of thelanguage of Flortime, I think they're part
of the language that we use as humans.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:12):
That is a perfect place to leave this conversation.
Leave it, hook it, think aboutit, run it back, take some time.
It's an absolute pleasurehearing about Flawed Time again.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (28:31):
Thank you so much.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:32):
And Dr Colette Ryan, we're going to be asking you to
return to us, continue to come in depthto explain some of this thinking to us.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (28:43):
Wonderful.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: Thank you very much for today. (28:44):
undefined
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (28:45):
Thank you.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:47):
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There's plenty more like this on ourwebsite, but what do you want to make?
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