Navigating VidCon in a Pandemic [Jim Louderback]

The term “influencer” gets thrown around a lot these days, and it’s not hard to understand why. The creator economy continues to grow and grow, enabling independent artists and thinkers to express themselves and make money doing it.

But like all trends, there were those at the beginning who saw sparks of potential, and thought “what if I could do something with this?” One of those early thinkers - perhaps one of the very first - was Jim Louderback.

Jim generously chatted with me about how he started as a product tester at Ziff-Davis Publishing, building a YouTube-centric network in Revision3, then leading the influencer convention VidCon through acquisition - and later, the Pandemic.

He shares his philosophies in how to experiment as a creator, how to make teams that can address new challenges, and his thoughts on how to keep the work of building fun, even when it’s not.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
- The term influencer getsthrown around a lot these days.
And it's not hard to understand why
the creator economy continues to grow
and grow, enabling independent artists
and thinkers to express themselvesand make money doing it.
But like all these trends,there are those at the beginning
who saw sparks of potential
and thought, what if I coulddo something with this?

(00:22):
One of those early thinkers?
And perhaps one of the veryfirst was Jim Louderback.
Jim generously chatted withme about how he started
as a product tester atZiff Davis Publishing,
building a YouTube centricnetwork in Revision, Three,
and then leading theInfluencer Convention FinCon
through acquisitionand later the pandemic.
He shares his philosophieson how to experiment

(00:43):
as a creator, how to make teams
that can address new challenges
and his thoughts on how to keep the work
of building fun even when it's not.
This is Jim Louderback.Welcome to Building Value.
I'm Jason Jason Nellis,
and I'm obsessed with the intersection
of creativity and technology.
I started my career at Hulu,
built products from theground up at Facebook

(01:04):
and founded a few companies.
In between each episode, I talk
to folks at the same intersectionwhose career paths have
had unexpected twists and turns.
We talk about what getsthem up in the morning,
what keeps them up at night,and what helps them grow.
If you like what you hearand you want to get more,
subscribe on YouTube orwherever you consume fine
podcast products.

(01:24):
And here we are with theman himself, Jim Louderback.
Jim, thanks so much forjoining, man. How are you today?
- I'm doing good. Thankyou. It's nice to be here.
It's nice to be here with you. It's
- Nice to be here with you.
You know, you and I go back.
I mean, let's just put it out there.
We've known each other for a minute.
Um, I think we probably gotto know each other in the days
of Hulu and Revision Three,if memory serves correctly.
Mm-Hmm. . Yep. When I was,
when I was a we account manager.

(01:46):
And you were the BMOC at Rev three.
Um, which I, I, now thatI've said it out loud,
I hope you have thaton a T-shirt somewhere.
I feel like that's amissed opportunity. If not,
- I don't, but CEO isprobably good enough,
- You know?
That's better. Okay, that's better.
That's fine. . Yeah.
- Um, it's less, it's one less letter.
- It's true.- It's bigger on your T-shirt
when it's one less letter.
Notice that it's almost spring training.

(02:07):
And I have four letters here.
- I was gonna say MET,ATS Mets. Mets, Mets.
- Let's go met. See,- I can see where your loyalties lie.
And I approve. Um, very cool man.
Well, I'd love to dive in head first
and just, you know, firstask about your career.
I mean, you have probably one
of my favorite careers in all of media.
'cause you've seen 16different angles of it.
Uh, you know, certainly startingin the, in the early days

(02:30):
of media and technology whereyou were at, uh, I mean,
you were at Ziff Davisand, you know, rev three.
I mean, take us through the whole
sort of arc of your career.
How did you get from, you know,
graduation to where you are today?
- So, yeah, I, I mean, it was,
I just kept on falling intothings that looked like fun.
Uh, when I graduated, um,grad school, went for college,

(02:53):
grad school, graduated,went and did consulting.
And this was in the earlydays of the personal computer
when everybody was runningthings on mainframe computers,
big mainframe computers in the basement.
And the personal computerwas just coming out.
And I, you know, I, it was a
huge revolution in the businesscomputing space, as big
as the internet, as big as anything.

(03:13):
And really, you know, theearly on tied my hat to that,
doing consulting buildingsystems at big companies like
Citibank and Morgan Guarantee
and small companies like the guys
who make the elevators go up
and down in buildings aroundNew York City Century elevator
and automating them inways that they could not do
with big computers.
And so I started writing about it.

(03:34):
So I, I was a math major anddid computers and got an MBA.
And so I was not a mediaperson. I have no background.
I have no journalism background,no training in media,
but I started writing aboutit anyway, um, writing about
what I was doing, getting into some
of the early online forumslike CompuServe and, um,
and just, you know, writing did,
did like a little methodologyon rapid development on PCs

(03:56):
and, um, and wrote a, youknow, a, a, a guest column
for this little magazine called PC Week,
which was the Biblenewspaper, the B2B thing
for the early days of the PC industry.
Never thought I'd get a job there,
but I think, you know, maybesomeday I'd get a column
in a computer magazine.
And there was an ad in the New York Times
for lab director at PC Week,a couple years into this.

(04:19):
And I was like, well,they're not gonna hire me,
but I'll at least meet them.
I went up there and, uh, you know,
at this point I'd been doing consulting.
I had, I don't know, five
or six clients that werepaying lots of money.
I had making a good salary.
But I went up there to meetwith those guys in Boston.
I was in New York at thetime, you know, doing stuff,
doing business all over the country.
And, um, they gave me the job.

(04:40):
So , it was likegoing from, I got five
or six clients paying a lotof money to 250,000 readers
that aren't really paying anything,
but it just sounded like fun.
So my wife and I uprooted,moved to Massachusetts
and I ran reviews in the laband built that up for PC week.
- That's pretty cool. I mean,talk about getting in early.
Uh, the, the interesting thing to me is
that we're talking about something

(05:00):
that was a physical magazine, right?
I mean, it wasn't, thisisn't some online publication
that was dependent on ads and impressions.
This was back in sort ofthe golden age of media.
Did you find you had a lot of flexibility?
Was that the kind of work whereyou could sort of experiment
or were there veryspecific narrow band, uh,
narrow limitations aroundwhich you could sort of
- Grow?
Oh, oh, this was a magazinethat made a lot of money

(05:21):
and it was advertisingand, uh, and advertising.
Um, and so that was, you know,
it was fairly rigid inas much as like they,
but they were, they started out as a new,
there's a news weekly, you know,
it's like the time magazine of computers.
Uh, and, and for business, uh,
or the business week of computers,
I guess is a better analogy.

(05:42):
But they were, becausethey were doing all news,
they started to get into reviews.
And the, the nice thingthey brought me in for,
and then I had theability to build this up
was news as reviews.
So when that new piece of hardware,
let's see if I can find one around here.
- Ah, going back to the archives. This,
- This, this was ourrumor cat, by the way,
Spencer Cat .
But, um, let's say when the,uh, a mobile device came out

(06:06):
with a keyboard that you could use
to do email from anywherecalled the Blackberry,
it's upside down called the
Blackberry, that would've been good.
I haven't been doing this for all.
So we would get them early
and as they came off NDAas they were announced,
because we had it a week
or two in advance, we would have a review
available the day it launched.
That blew people's minds.

(06:27):
So it was able to craft thatconcept of product review
as news for this leading newspaper in the
B2B PC business.
And so within those constraints,it was a lot of fun.
We gotta to do a lotof really cool things.
- I love that. How do youcompare that to the modern age
where, you know, there'san embargo on a new,
let's say it's a new Samsung phone,

(06:47):
and then the day it launches,50 influencers have kind
of similar reviews interms of specs and anal
and analyzing sort of
where it sits withinthe place in the market.
Do you feel like back then itwas, uh, a little bit easier
to have sort of a precious hold on those
reviews? Or was it just more
- We did that first?
Yeah. So they came to us becausenobody else was doing it.
Sure. And then as other peoplewere like, oh, we could do

(07:09):
that, more and morepeople started doing it.
But the idea of news as, uh,you know, a product review
as news was something thatwe pioneered at PC week.
And we, you know, becausebefore I got there,
and by the way, this wasn't my idea.
They knew they wanted to do it, which
is why they brought me in.
But before I got there, itwas your standard newspaper.
We, you know, every Thursdaywe would have a page one

(07:31):
meeting where all the storiesthat came out that week,
we'd pick the ones thatwere most important.
And we'd sit around justlike at the New York Times
and figure out what's going onthe, you know, the front page
of our newspaper that it was weekly.
So when it, when people got it on Monday,
and when we started doingthis reviews as news thing,
I would go into those meetingsas the guys guy Ryan Lab
and the news and say,well, I got the first phone

(07:53):
that's got a fricking keyboard on it,
and this should be on the front page.
And all the reporters arelike, ah, it's not news.
And the editor in chief wassmart enough to be like,
that's our lead story on Monday.
So that was really funtoo, going up, you know,
I won't call them crusty old journalists,
but some of them weregoing up against them
as this, you know, young guy.
Like this is just as newsworthyas your scoop on, you know,

(08:14):
IBM's latest VP of corporate,blah, blah, blah. Right?
- I do, I do have thisimage in my head of you, uh,
pitching in a largemeeting to a, uh, you know,
a Perry White, you know,a cigar, a cigar chomping,
you know, suspender wearinglean back kind of guy with,
you know, all these other,uh, giants of their space.
And you as sort of a little Clark Kent
being like, I've got the scoop.
You didn't know this, butI've got it. Yeah. Um, well,

(08:36):
- And I wasn't allowed totell them what I had until
that meeting because we had a wall.
I mean, we were on the first floor.
They were on the thirdfloor. They couldn't,
the reporters couldn't come into the lab.
Oh my gosh. And one of thethings that was really, you know,
it was a really big deal, was going out
and talking to all of the PR people
and the other folks atthese companies and,
and convincing them thatgiving it to us, you know,

(08:56):
I saw the lock on the door
and the fact that nobodycould get in, but me
and my team, that their,
their cool product was safefrom the best reporters in
the industry upstairs.
- Right, right. You gotta,you gotta have that.
You gotta have that delineation,God forbid that, you know,
somebody's, uh, uh,newfangled, uh, notions, uh,
break into the, the oldstaunch way of doing things.

(09:17):
- Or, or like, and this, by the way,
this is Spencer the cat,
and Spencer the cat was the rumor cat.
So it was a column that waswritten on the back page
where when a story, you know,stories needed two sources.
If you only had one source,
you couldn't write a story about it,
but the cat knows all .
So the cat would do the column.
And it was an anonymous columnbecause you never knew who

(09:38):
- The cat was.
Wait, I'm sorry, let me just clarify.
Are you telling me thatPC Week had a page six
anonymous gossip source?
And I didn't know thatuntil this moment. It
- Was the last page of PC week .
- So it was like page 32. Yeah, yeah.
- Or, or 64 or Right.
You know, we were in, inthe day we were what's known
as saddle stitch, whichmeant that we, you know,
it was just like page after page
after page folded over and stitched.

(10:00):
But, uh, you know, by 97, this was,
this is in the early nineties,mid nineties by 97 a combats,
which is where this guy is from.
Um, the, it was so big thatit was actually perfect bound,
which is what most magazines, you know,
that actually have on the back.
It's actually a rectangularthat is perfect bound.
'cause there's glue inthere. So it got big enough.

(10:20):
And I think anything over 96pages had to be perfect bound.
- Interesting. Again,learning things about, I can't
- Believe I still remember that.
- I mean, that's pretty good.All things considered. Yeah.
Um, so take me through then howthat leads to ZDTV on cable.
'cause I know that you helpedpioneer a lot of content
that was really technologycentric in video format as well.

(10:40):
That must have been whereyou got to experiment a lot
- Actually, even before thatin, I think, like, I got
to PC week in 91, uh, andthen two years later, uh,
and I was, I had a year laterwe moved out to California
because they consolidatedall of their reviews folks,
or two years later, theyconsolidated their reviews, folks
in California by like 93, 94.

(11:00):
And, uh, and I moved out
and we moved all of our labs out there.
But, um, they saw what wasgoing on with television
and were very forward thinking
and said, we are going todo a show about computers.
And did a, did a show calledThe Personal Computing Show.
And it was, we bought timeon CNBC on the weekends,

(11:21):
and we had a half hour show, 93 94.
There's still, it's stillout there on YouTube.
I can send you the link.Gina Smith, Leo LaPorte
and I were on that show.
And this is where,
and again, this is somethingthat, uh, I gotta say I kind
of like, I think I'mthe person to do this.
First, I was the first person

(11:41):
to do video reviews of technology.
Um, they would be a new
- Product.
I'm watching, I am watching ayoung Jim Louderback currently
talk to me alongside Gina Smithabout new har uh, it appears
to be a new motherboard
and some of the new software
that you can installonce it's taken care of.
Uh, this is pretty cool.
- Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I wasn't,

(12:02):
we weren't necessarily completely unboxing
because it wasn't like Iwas getting the new thing in
and I was taking it, youknow, it was like, oh my gosh,
I can't believe it's got buttons.
But it was close enough, likethe idea of a video review
of a computer product,you know, we started that.
And I, I love it. I was the one
who did it first, I think, who knows?
Maybe not. But I was veryearly on with it. Well,

(12:25):
- I'm, I'm saying this outloud so that I make sure I,
I know that the, that Jim LaBeck,
the original un boxer, I'mputting that, that's the
- Title of this.
Yeah. Something like that. Um, yeah. Yeah.
And so look, that, that, soyour question was about ZDTV.
And so that was popular.
We had Gateway as oursponsor Gateway computers,
so they could sell more computers.
It was good. It didn't work that well.

(12:45):
But a couple years later,as the internet started
to come out, Ziff Davispartnered up with Microsoft
and NBC when they launched MS.
NBC. And there was a program on Ms NBC
for an hour a day called the Site.
And the site was a partnership
between Ziff Davis, NBC and Microsoft.

(13:06):
It was hosted by Soledad O'Brien.
Leo LaPorte was there as, uh, full-time.
Um, but also the voice of thevirtual character Dev Nall.
And, um, and, uh, Iwould fly out and do, uh,
'cause I was back living onthe East Coast at that point,
took over Senator inchief of Windows sources.
Uh, and eventually PC week Ibecame the editorial director.
But, um, but, uh, would fly out and,

(13:27):
and gang shoot like five
or six reviews that they woulddrop in every couple weeks.
And so that ran for a year,um, as M-S-N-B-C tried
to figure out what it was gonna be.
And then Princess Diana died.
And M-S-N-B-C realized that it would be
what we called at thetime, the Mourning channel,
because they basically didwall to wall coverage of

(13:50):
Princess Diana's deathand everybody in mourning
and kicked the site off.
And they realized that wasa better model for them.
So that, uh, wholetechnology thing went away.
But at the same time, thecompany said, this is successful.
This is good. Let's launch acable network about technology.
Uh, we already have a lot ofreally smart people in house,
let's call it ZDTV.
And this is in 1997.

(14:11):
And, uh, they were like, Jim, you want
to come be the head of content there?
We got this, you know,
a couple people arereally good at television
who are gonna come outand run the TV side.
We need somebody who's like,knows the Ziff Davis way about
products and can build that up.
So ZDTV launched, I wasthere, Leo was there.
We brought Patrick Nortonover from Windows Sources,
the magazine that I was running before.
Uh, and a lot of really,really good famous people,

(14:34):
um, talented people.
And we launched the firstcable network about technology
in 1998.
So 97, we all went outthere. 98 we launched.
And it was, I mean, it was a big deal.
We did a lot of reallyinnovative things there.
I mean, I'll tell you anotherthing. We did two things
at ZDTV that was super fun.
The first was, um, wewere the first TV network

(14:58):
to put our viewers on live.
Me and another person went out
and did a deal withthree Comm at the time.
Mm-Hmm. , whowere making tiny little qip
cameras, three 20 by two fortys,
the first video cameras youcould plug into your computer
via the serial port, really lowbandwidth, but it was video.
And we started the ZDTV net CAM network.

(15:18):
And so Leo LaPorte would do call for help
or screensavers live, uh,
and they would say, well, let's go
to the ZDTV net CAM networks.
You know, we'd have a littleThreecom logo in there.
'cause they gave us 50,000 cameras
or 10,000 to give awayto our, our viewers.
And we would go to somebodyin Nebraska, in Ohio, in

(15:39):
Oklahoma, in California, allwherever they could see us,
which wasn't very many places at the time.
But anyway. And we would put them on TV
and we'd have a conversation with them.
And that was revolutionary.
And then the other thing we did,
and this is I I, I led thiswith another person, is you go
to CES now, right?
And you see the best of CES,
and it's, I don't know ifCNET did it for a long time.

(16:01):
And, uh, and I, I don'teven know who does it now,
but we were the first prettymuch dc we went to CES
and said, we will comeand we will broadcast wall
to wall on Z DTV CES,
and we will do the firstbest of CES awards.
And we did. So I built awhole group of like 20 people.
They went out and tested products,

(16:21):
and we did a big thing there.
And, um, you know, we gave out the awards
and we did that for a fewyears until, you know, so,
you know, CDTV fellapart, it became Tech tv
and then, uh, it was, uh, andthen it got sold to Comcast.
But anyway, um, couplereally fun things there
that we kind of pioneered there too.
- There's so much there to unpack.

(16:41):
But the one thing that'sreally interesting
to me is talking, it wasthinking about the idea of
being the first to call outthe best products of each year.
I'm kind of shockedthat that wasn't a thing
that was built into CES.
'cause now it's such a standard,not just from, you know,
the independent media companiesthat are there covering all
of it, but you almost seenow whether it's, you know,
innovation Alley orsome of the other spots.

(17:02):
Like it, it, CES kind of does it
for itself now. It's sort of Right.
- They have the innovationaward. Exactly. Right. Yeah.
Which they do. Yeah.
They may have done that before that,
but it, the fact thatthey had a media partner
who was going out, we wereactually testing products on the
show floor and evaluating them
and doing the best of thatway, we had categories.
Um, so anyway, and then,
and then there was,you know, there was com

(17:24):
before that that, um,people would do it in,
but nobody did it for CES.
Was there a best of conduct?
Now I gotta look up on the internet,
- .
Well, while you do, takeme a little bit through how
that transitioned into Revision Three,
because, you know, when,again, when I was, uh,
at Hulu some years ago, uh,Revision Three was, you know,
I was 23 at the time when I joined Hulu.

(17:45):
You know, Revision Three was the place
where you got your sort of,uh, most cutting edge news and,
and content around what washappening in the tech world.
Mm-Hmm. .So between, you know,
Illa designation, um, Iwas reminded the other day
of Web3 games that I, Ithink you might have even,
were you the creator of that? Um,
- Well, I mean, I, I mean,at Revision Three, I was CEO.
Right? I had a great group of people
that were building all this stuff,

(18:06):
and a lot of them came from Tech tv.
Yeah. Um, so yeah, we built all of that.
I mean, I, I, at that point,
I was not the one comingup with the ideas.
I was the one looking for moneyto fund the ideas .
- Well, tell me that transition,
because, you know, I, I knowthat a lot of folks who start
as influencers in the modernsort of telling of the story,
you know, they start as influencers.
They're doing everything.They're scripting,

(18:27):
they're shooting, they'reediting, they're producing.
And then as time goes on
and they build bigger teams,they end up having to take more
of a leadership rolethat's much more strategic
and ends up being much more financial.
Um, what was that like?
I mean, I assume that ZDTVhelped train you for that,
but going to Revision Threemust have been a pretty
significant shift into fullexecutive mode at that point.
- Well, yes and no.

(18:48):
I mean, look, I got an MBA,
I was always focused on running things.
I came in and built the lab
and built it to, you know, we had 30
or 40 people in the lab.
And, uh, at ZDTV Tech tv, welaunched this thing called,
you know, called, um, we, welaunched Live News Tech tv now,
tech now, I forget what it'scalled, tech Now, I think.
But anyway, you know, andit was like CNBC killer

(19:08):
and the.com runup.
And I built a team of like200 people that I ran.
So being, you know, runningorganizations like that was
what I was always thoughtI was going to do.
Uh, and even when I leftTech tv, I went back
and was editor in chief of PC Magazine.
So I ran the whole magazineof, you know, a hundred,
120 people across digital and, and non.
So that was not it.

(19:28):
The, the big thing was goingfrom an established media
company for me to buildinga small company, starting
with like four or fivepeople, and we just raised,
you know, seven or $8 million.
And how do you build acompany like that from scratch
and make it relevantand make the decisions
and bring in the right team?
And so the, the real thing forme was starting from scratch

(19:48):
and being able to, and,
and being a CEO where, you know, I, I,
I couldn't do everything.
I had to bring in reallysmart people to run sales,
to run content, to run marketing,to run the infrastructure,
to run the technology.
Things that I have feltlike I knew a lot about,
but had to move away from, oh,I'm going to be responsible

(20:10):
for everything anddictate everything to, no,
I'm gonna hire reallysmart people to do it.
That's a transition. That's a tough one.
- I'll bet. What was your
philosophy around the team building?
I mean, you said, youknow, hire smart people,
but that only gets you so far.
Were you thinking more, youknow, lean and broad, right?
We want one person to do these three
different hats simultaneously?
Or were you thinking moresort of, you know, I, I want

(20:30):
to build, you know, thecontent person is gonna be sort
of very sectioned off in this space,
and I want to give them asmuch time as they can in that
specific vertical versus the sales folks.
And I, I wanna limit howmuch they bother each other.
Like, what was your general
philosophy in building those teams?
- Well, the philosophy, I
mean, we'd raised money at the time.
So we had the money to sort ofbuild out a team for growth.
Mm-Hmm. , which was good.
Uh, so hired a head of saleswho I'd worked with at, um,

(20:53):
you know, we workedtogether at, uh, at Tech tv.
He did a lot of sales there. He was great.
He actually, like, really,
if there was any person responsible
for Revision Threesuccess, it was Brad Murphy
because he really drove our,
our monetization, our sponsorship.
But he knew content and loved creators
and still does in what he does.
Uh, and so he was super innovative in
what he built and how he built it.

(21:13):
And the in show sponsorshipsthat we did hired a head
of content, uh, to come in and do that.
Um, hired and then, you know, and, and,
and hired a head of technology.
Actually, we already had ahead, a technology that had
to come in and, and kind ofrun all the tech background.
So it was really, you know, and then,
and then eventually, you know,
a year in Hired Outta Marketing,it was really set up so

(21:33):
that we could, you know,really have these groups
that could go out and dowhat they needed to do
to build a big company.
- Love that. How did the rise of, uh,
Revision Three parallel in your mind
to the rise of YouTube, right?
Because you joined Revision Three in 2007,
YouTube was starting to findits, you know, really its,

(21:54):
its footing and then its scaleover the proce, you know,
over the following five years,
about the same time youwere at Revision Three,
did you see a lot of commonality between
what people were doingonline independently
versus what you guys were doing?
I mean, was there a big differentiation
between it just purely oncontent strategy or even quality?
I mean, where do you see sort of the
overlap or the distinction?
- Well, you know, when we started, um,

(22:15):
and when Revision Three reallygot going, it was built in,
in large part around designation.
So Dig Nation and Dig, dig Nation, and,
and Revision Three were both started
by Kevin Rose, uh, and folks.
And Kevin had been at CDTV Tech tv, uh,
and they, you know, theyraised money for both
and Dig Nation, even thoughKevin was the host of it.
And he was the CEO of, uh,

(22:36):
ended up being the CEO ofDig and was running Dig.
You know, that was abig part of what we did.
So they were, these were video podcasts.
Video podcasts are not a new thing.
This was once you could,back in those days,
back in old days, you couldn't stream 'em
because there wasn't enoughbandwidth for most people.
So it was, you'd put thesevideo podcasts up on iTunes
and other places, and then you could
download them and watch them later.

(22:57):
Uh, eventually it became streaming.
I mean, rather quicklyit became streaming.
But back then, a lot of it was download
and, and consume later.
And so we had, we were all video podcasts
that we started puttingout on different platforms,
and there were 20
or 30 online video platforms
of which YouTube was justone rev break blip, um, vo

(23:19):
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And so we would, we would super distribute
to all those platforms, as dida couple of other companies,
like Next New Networks, whowas an early one out there.
Also, they came up
with this whole superdistribution concept,
which we're like, that's really
smart, we're gonna do that too.
Um, but in 2008, um,
there was a big crash andit was, you know, and,
and it was about midway through the year

(23:42):
and there was a big market crashbecause of financial stuff.
And all the VCs are like, you gotta like,
lay off half your staffand it's nuclear winner,
and if you wanna survive,you gotta do this.
And, you know, it, it, it was a big deal.
'cause all the advertisingdollars dried up
and we were already putting our stuff
on YouTube at that time.
But at that point, you know, I had
to lay off third ofthe staff, which I did.
We really corded down to a core team

(24:04):
and a core set of thingsthat we were doing
that were making money.
And we looked out at, uh,
at YouTube and where things were going.
And I made, we, well, you know, as a team,
we made the decisionthat we were gonna pivot
to being a YouTube network,
and we were gonna findtechnology, gamer science,
other people that were in,that were creating for YouTube
and go all in on YouTube.

(24:26):
And that was a big deal.
You know, I had a bunch of people
who had been working on TV,and they were looking at some
of these YouTubers,like, like John Retinger,
techno Buffalo was, and uh,
and Mark Watson from,uh, soldier Know Best.
We, some of the earlycreators in the tech space
that we signed, andthey were looking at us.
That's not television,that's not what we do.
Look at the quality, they'rejust like right there.
And they're just like,showing stuff off like this.

(24:47):
And you can't even tellwhat they're doing.
But it's like, you knowwhat? They were reaching
through the camera and grabbing you
and sucking your eyeballsin and building community.
And so by 2010,
we were a hundred percentmoved to that po that model.
We were, like I said, areally early YouTube network.
We were one of the few that were allowed
to do in show sponsorships.
Um, and, uh,

(25:07):
and yeah, so we became ahundred percent YouTube.
- I, I do want to callit the, the, the, uh,
prophetic nature ofthat, uh, uh, hiring, uh,
strategy in terms of guys like John Tinger
and Mark Watson, both
of whom still have big thriving YouTube
communities around them.
And they're still doing whatthey do pretty successfully.
So, kudos to you. You clearly had

(25:28):
an eye for talent back in the day. Yeah,
- They were amazing.
And, and it wasn't just that, you know,
we were having fun with lots of stuff.
Like this show scam schoolthat we did was, um, you know,
another one, Brian Brushwood,who was a, the punk magician,
um, came in with an, one of the other guys
that we had been working with.
Uh, one of, one of my, you know, one
of the folks on my team is like,
I really wanna do this great proposal.

(25:49):
I was like, oh yeah, this is great.
So we did that, and you know,
and he's still out there doingstuff too, and is amazing.
So there's a, there's some early talent
that we sort of brought in.
We helped develop, um,you know, Ryan Vance,
who was running our content,was really good at developing
talent and building stuff out.
Did a great job there, did agreat job with like, you know,
a a lot of different creatorsthat kind of fit our mold,
which was very focused on tech and guys

(26:12):
and, you know, and gamingand things like that.
- Talk to me about how thatthen transitioned to the thing
that, that I think if anybodyin the space knows you from
most recently, it'sgotta be VidCon, right?
The biggest annual gathering of creators
and their fans globallynow in multiple cities.
You were there as you startedas the, the editorial director

(26:34):
for the industry track.
You eventually took over as CCEO
and GM helped get it sold to Viacom.
Turn it into now, I mean, it'sprolific the size of VidCon.
I mean, the first time I wentto VidCon, can I just say,
and I, I don't know that Iactually saw you at this VidCon,
but the first time I wentto VidCon, I was overwhelmed
by a group of about 120 kidsrushing Mark multiplier,

(26:55):
who made the mistake of walking,you know, into, you know,
public traffic for half a second and,
and just watching a bunchof kids just like try to, I,
I assume consume him.
I, I don't know what else they were aiming
for with that rush of people
- Connect with him. Connect,
- Sure, connect.
Let's go with connect. Could
- Have been a physical connection,
but connect. Sure. .
- But I, I think, you know, the thing

(27:17):
that's most interestingto me about that is
that your background,I mean, I can't think
of a more perfect place to,to land, given the history
of your, your career thatwe just heard, right?
The, the, you know, the MBAexecutive direction, the,
you know, really in the muckcreative writing direction,
the thinking about strategic
and business building, all of it.
When that came to you, Imean, when you were there

(27:39):
as the editorial director, was you,
were you thinking you wantedto eventually take it on?
Or was it just an opportunityto help connect with creators?
- No, here's how, here'show it really happened.
So we sold Revision Threeto Discovery in 2012.
It was one of the early,uh, m MCN selling.
You went in there,started up a whole bunch
of digital networks forthem, grand Discover, built
and ran Discovery digitalnetworks, et cetera.

(28:00):
You know, after a couple years
and like I've been in big media companies,
that can be exhausting.
And Discovery was no different.
- I have no idea whatyou're talking about.
- Uh, and uh, yeah. You know what I mean?
And so, um, 2014, towardsthe end of 2014, uh,
I was like, I'm done.
And so, um, kind of figured that out.
And then, and, and Ihad a non-compete, uh,

(28:21):
and I wasn't allowed to gowork in a media business
for another year or two.
And they're like, that's fine. 'cause
they were still paying me.
Uh, I was still gettinglike my earnout payouts,
you know, retention payments, whatever.
And, uh, and
but back, you know, let's goback a couple years, 2010.
In 2010, we had gone to YouTube.
We had a lot of great creators there.
We were trying to bring onnew creators that were science

(28:43):
and geeky and techie focused.
And we had run Aina.
We really wanted to get this guy Hank
Green on and his brother John.
'cause they fit our audience perfectly.
We really wanted Veritasium,
we really wanted a lot ofthose science creators.
Turns out the science creators,
and they were all super smart.
They're like, yeah, we don't wanna join.
Why use stupid MCNs?
We're just gonna keep doing what we do.
Um, but Hank was great
because he's like, oh, youmight really like this guy

(29:03):
who ended up like doingsome stuff with me.
I said, oh, by the way, I'mstarting this event called,
called Fi Con.
'cause I think it's goodto bring people together.
And I was like, I've done events before.
And you know, obviouslydoing this stuff at CES
and combats and, and other things.
I'm like, events areperfect for this space.
We absolutely need it.What can I do to help?
We sponsored, I spoke at thefirst one along with, you know,
the 30 people who spokethere 2010 in the summer,

(29:25):
in the basement of the Hyattin Century City in, uh, in LA
across the street from CAA,
the world's biggest talent agency.
I think at the time. There'seven like an underground tunnel
between the Hyatt and CAA, I guess, so
that the famous peoplecould sleep at the Hyatt
and go to CIA without going outside.
'cause you know, the weather'salways terrible in la.
Um, but anyway, uh, it was amazing.

(29:48):
I remember calling up some
of my friends in the traditional media.
I'm like, you have to comedown here on a Saturday
to see what's going on.
Nobody knew the world was changing there.
So anyway, I digress.
So, you know, and overthe time between 2010
and 2014, I had been, youknow, back pocket sort
of advisor to Hank and John.

(30:08):
And we sold to 2012. Wesold a discovery in 2013.
They were really leaning inhard to the creator economy.
We had Phil d Franco as partof, uh, part of our network,
and they, we got PhilDeFranco to host Shark Week.
And, um, at the time, theyreally wanted at VidCon
to bring in more big media companies.
And they knew I was working at one
and Shark Week starteda week after VidCon.

(30:30):
And they had come up withthis 60 foot mechanical shark
that they were wheeling around
for promotional purposes in California.
And I convinced the discovery people
to bring the shark to VidCon.
And they did. And there are videos
and pictures on the internet of the shark.
And actually, you know, the mechanical
shark, it could crunch things.
It crunched I Justine's mobile iPhone.

(30:52):
It crunched the sh thethe source fed couch, uh,
and all kinds of stuff.
And it was, uh, it was a really big deal.
Um, so when I left, youknow, obviously I got
to know the VidCon people really well,
and I called up Hank andI remember called him up.
I'm like, yeah, I'm leaving VidCon.
I can't go and work in media.
I could just chill, butyou know, I love VidCon.

(31:13):
Can I help you with anything?And the timing was fortuitous
because he was, at that point it was,
it was VidCon was one track,
and then it went to sortof an industry day before,
and then they had a little industry track,
but they were adding in the creator track
and they, it was gonnabe a three track show.
And they're like, why don't you come in
and really define the industry track
and build it into a big thing?
And I'm like, yeah,

(31:34):
I got nothing else todo for the next year.
Sure, I'll do that. VidCon is really fun.
And then, you know, once my
non-compete is up, I'llgo do something else.
Well, I did it and Iwas having so much fun,
I just kept doing it.
So 15, 16, 17 just kept onbuilding the industry track
and having fun with it, uh, as well
as doing like a lean into,uh, to venture a little bit
and doing consulting withNational Geographic on the, and,

(31:55):
and learning about lotsof other fun things.
Um, and then in 2017, the, the, in 2016,
they decided to go international with it.
It's like, let's do a show inAustralia. Let's do a show.
And, uh, the Netherlands, I'm like, well,
and we're bringing theindustry track there, right?
And so we did.
And you know, one was good, onewas not so good in mid 2017,
I think Hank and Johnand his dad got together

(32:16):
and were like, it's been a good run.
We, uh, built this company up.
Uh, we have no investment,we have no debt.
All of the risk is on us.
If there were an earthquake,for example, in Anaheim
around the show, theywould've lost everything.
So they said, yeah, maybenow's the time to exit.
And so they came to meafter VidCon in 2017
and Anaheim in the summer were like,

(32:37):
you wanna come be our CEO
and maybe sell thisthing so that, you know,
'cause you've sold stuff before.
And uh, and I was like, okay.
So I did, five monthslater we sold to Viacom.
- Not bad. Yeah, not bad.
- Some of the, that was really fast. Yeah.
- Yeah. So, but then you're leading c
you're leading VidCon, right?

(32:58):
You're now, you've got Viacom who wants
to, you know, build at scale.
And actually, now that you mentioned it,
I think 2017 was my first VidCon.
So of course I got to see it
before it turned intothe thing it is today.
Which isn't to say it'sbad, it's glorious to see
how it can, you know, scales to new cities
and opens up opportunitiesfor new creators.
But to see it in its originalform, right, to see it in sort
of, its its intendedoriginal form. It's it's

(33:20):
- Pre corporate behemoth ownership form.
- Right? Exactly. Um, butthen you're there and,
and you know, I remember we got into 2020
and the pandemic hits,
and now there can't be a VidCon,
there can't be any in-person events.
Uh, which is where you andI reconnected at super, uh,
at Meta when we were, you know,I was hosting for you guys,

(33:40):
which, um, I have to say, it was one
of the most fun experiencesof my existence.
Thank you again for that opportunity.
Can I just say, um,
but I, I think what's interesting to me is
that you guys came out of itwith really strategic planning.
It wasn't where a lot
of other companies werethrowing things at the wall.
It really felt to us like,okay, we're gonna really,
we're gonna move things online.
We're gonna approachthis very systemically.

(34:01):
We're gonna really think about how
to keep our audience engaged
and to do so as soon asit's an opportunity, as soon
as there's an opportunityto do it safely in person,
we're gonna do so even to the point where,
if I remember correctly, you were going
to do it again in 2021and then pulled back on it
because it wasn't clearthat there was gonna be, uh,
enough safety measures inplace to do it properly.
So that must have been, Imean, there must have been a,

(34:23):
a lot going on behind thescenes to make that decision.
But, but again, youknow, to do it in a way
that is respectful ofpeople's health and safety
and then to still leaninto this digital strategy.
How did you juggle so much?
I mean, how did you do thatwithout losing your mind?
- Well, you know, part ofI think being able to adapt
to unfortunate, to, you know,
unforeseen circumstances is having a
strong strategic plan in place.

(34:44):
And I did this at RevisionThree, I did this at Vidcom
and I took over as CEO where we sat down
and said, look, we're gonnacome up with a strategic plan.
We needed it to sell the company.
'cause we had to sell the dream.But it always, to me starts
with 20 years from now, what'sthe big thing we wanna do?
Um, and at, at RevisionThree it was, we wanted
to be a billion dollar media company.

(35:05):
And well, we sort
of got there in five years'cause we sold a discovery.
So we were part of a billiondollar media company,
so I'll take that in 2017.
I said, we want, you know,our we and not I, we all,
and it's not all about, it's not me.
It's, we all sit down as anexec team and go through this.
Come on. In 2017, it was, we want
to have a VidCon on everycontinent in the united in,

(35:27):
in the world accepting Antarctica
because penguins can't make videos
and we want to ha we want to,
we wanna have a million attendees.
That was our big goal for 20 years.
Well, when you have a big goal like that,
and it's consistent, when, whenlife throws you curve balls,
you say, how does this,how does our strategic

(35:47):
plan apply to this?
And we realized that wecould actually accelerate our
strategic plan because goinga hundred percent digital,
which people were doing, allowed us
to do VidCon all over the world
and allowed us to have attendees come in
from all over the world.
And so during the lockdown, during Covid

(36:09):
that in 2020, we had one
and a quarter million unique people
that attended our digital VidCon events.
And by 2021, we had donedigital VidCon events
everywhere in the world.
We did them in Asia
and Singapore, we did one in South Africa.
We did multiple, you know,
we'd already donephysical ones in Australia

(36:29):
and physical ones in Europe.
Uh, and so we were able to, and,
and we did it in South America
because we had, we did Mexico virtually,
and then we did stuff in, uh, in Brazil
and Argentina virtually.
So we were able to go out there
and be like, yeah, we'vedone VidCon on every
continent we've done.
We've had a millionpeople come to our events.
It just wasn't the waywe imagined it in 2017.

(36:53):
But because the plan was there
and we were always aboutcommunity, we jumped into it.
And, you know, I turned a team of people
that were live event, thatwere basically physical live
event producers intodigital event producers.
And that was, you know, it,it had its ups and downs,
but, you know, kudos to theteam for, you know, buying it,
embracing it, andchanging what they do and,

(37:15):
and figuring out how tomake the dream happen
and the vision happen even though we
couldn't leave our houses.
- I, I love, first ofall, the acknowledgement
and respect for the people who executed.
Because I, I know, again,having worked with you,
but also knowing how bigcompanies can sometimes work,
there are folks who sometimessay, you know, well I,
you know, I got us through it.
And it's, it's really refreshingto hear you, you know,

(37:37):
say we got us through it.
- Everyone did it- Like this. Everyone
did. Everyone did everything.
- Like, like the, the guy
who still does all thelive streaming in the video
for VidCon now around theworld, Kyle, you know, we ki we,
Kyle learned how to be a a,a digital video broadcaster.
You know, we had, we had Fiona, who
- I like to think I had a little, I'd like

(37:58):
to think I did a little to help
that. Can I just say, oh, you
- Did no .
Well, what I mean, like,you worked with Fiona.
Fiona was like ama youknow, Fiona produced events.
She did, you know,stuff on the show floor.
She became the, the producerof all these digital events
and then ended up taking over
and being, when we wentback to real life, you know,
being the, the, the executive producer
of the live event in Baltimore.

(38:19):
So we had people whoreally stepped up and, um,
and everybody really did.
But there were people who likelearned entirely new career
skills, um, because we sort of had to,
and look, I will also saykudos to Viacom slash Viacom,
CBS slash Paramount, becausenot only did they did,
were they, did they supportus all the way through,

(38:40):
even though we werelosing money, you know,
and they supported thefact that we don't want
to go back in 2021
and potentially have, you know, uh, a lot
of kids getting covid and dying,
which we were most scared about.
'cause Covid came back in2021, as you'll remember.
And, um, so it was a lot of people, a lot
of support, a lot of belief.
And so, you know, we couldn'thave done it without any

(39:02):
of the support and the belief in
everybody out there making that happen.
- No, I love that. I, Ilove too the idea that,
that it's not as important to try
to hit a million people in person, right?
Because you, you have somany, uh, businesses that try
to hit an artificial goal thatthey set some years prior.
And then as circumstanceschange and as the market shifts
and, and, you know,everybody's footing redevelops,

(39:24):
they sometimes keep those, uh,
goals even though they'reno longer reasonable.
Uh, to hear that, that youreally stuck to the larger goal,
which is affect a million people, right?
Have that impact on a millionpotential creators, uh,
really warms my heart
because I, I think that'sthe most important thing.
And really it was at the core of
what you wanted to hit early on.
And I think to be ableto not only do that,

(39:47):
but do that with a team ofpeople who really stepped up
to the challenge is a genuineonce in a lifetime experience.
I mean, you must feel thatway about them in that time.
- Oh yeah, absolutely.It was, it was amazing.
I mean, think about thepeople who like ran food
and beverage at the events, right?
And they, they were likethe ones that made sure
that there was coffee in everyroom and that the, you know,
and that the, the big events were catered

(40:09):
for the clients and things like that.
And they dealt with theconvention centers and, you know,
and, and, and suddenly they're like, oh,
you mean I'm producing sessions, um,
that are streaming ?
But people stepped up. It was great.
- So you've moved away from VidCon,
you're now independent workingon a number of projects.
You know, I, I get yournewsletter, uh, in my inbox

(40:29):
and on my LinkedIn feed, you know,
inside the Creator Economy.
You comment on thingshappening, not just on YouTube,
of course, but broadlyacross the social media
and online video ecosystems.
So lemme take a step back
and ask, like, what do yousee that's happening today
that is particularly interestingor compelling for you?
Is there a new platform
or a new development on an

(40:50):
existing platform thatyou find interesting?
Or is it, you know, newpersonalities emerging that,
that are challenging the status
quo for how to produce content?
- You know, there's a lot ofinteresting stuff happening in
the creator economy, andthere are a lot of trends.
And I talk about trendsevery year in my newsletter,
and I think there's still, there's still,
and I actually just spoke about this at a,
a conference earlier this week.

(41:10):
Everyone's talking about generative ai,
so I'm not gonna talk too much about it
because you can, you know, yougot every rock you pick up,
somebody's like, generativeAI is changing the world,
or generative AI is gonna makeus solve, you know, whatever.
But I do think that
I was there at the PC revolution when it
totally changed computers.
I was there at the internetrevolution when it totally

(41:32):
changed media, uh,
and has led us to where we are now, um,
there at the CreatorRevolution, which has totally,
you know, allowed people to go direct
and build their audiences.
And I do think that the, thatwhat gen AI is gonna allow us
to do is as big a revolution.
You look at what just launch,
which is the Sora models from OpenAI,

(41:54):
where they're actually doinga minute of stuff that is hd,
it's really high quality, it's amazing.
You still have to tell stories with it.
And, you know, chat, GPTis a prediction engine,
and the stories are boring.
So there's a place for storytellers,
but chat GPT will enableso many more people
to do amazing visualstorytelling, just like YouTube

(42:15):
and TikTok and,
and others have enabled peopleto do visual storytelling.
It's just going to add another layer
and another, uh, anotheropening of the kimono
to the democratizationof storytelling and media
and reaching an audience.
And just like every otherones that I talked through,
some people got disrupted
and had to go out andlearn something else.

(42:35):
People do it. I mean, look at
what the VidCon team didwhen they went from doing
face-to-face events, todoing live streamed events.
You live that you were doing,that, you had an amazing
platform that were doing amazing things
with building community that way.
And so I think this isjust another step function.
Here's what I think is different though.
It took really 30 years for the internet

(42:57):
and digital technology to really transform
and upend traditional media.
You know, it started out as print
and then it was, you know, radio and music
and photos, and then video.
I'm not sure, we have 30months this time around,
so it's gonna be fun to watch.
All these transitions are great.
Anybody who's listening to

(43:17):
this thinking like, what am I gonna do?
What am I gonna do? Justthink about that guy at VidCon
or Girl or whoever it waswho was working with food
and beverage and wasall about getting your
coffee to the rooms on time.
They became an amazing event,digital event producer.
So you can do it, buttransitions are tough on people.
So that's one. I'm notgonna get too much into it,
but I just think that's so

(43:38):
interesting watching that play out.
It allows all of us to uplevel our skills.
- That really resonates for me.
I, I think what I get scared of in terms
of the upcoming AI revolutionisn't necessarily replacement
so much as I, I feel in some ways I kind
of feel like my father, you know, my dad,
who is a little techaverse, he's not uneducated.

(44:02):
He can manage a computer justfine even when things break.
He's not totally out oftouch, but it gets harder
and harder as time goes on to keep up.
And I think my concern,
and I don't know if you feel the same way,
but I think my concern is just that
as things get more complex,as the world gets more, um,
as the world has more tools to play with

(44:22):
and technologies to learn,
how do you keep a fresh eye on everything?
How do you keep up, not justwith the use of the technology,
but the impact it can have andthe creativity it can offer?
It it, particularly in the ways
that aren't obvious from the get go.
- You know, I think the thingto do is to track the people
that are on the forefront of it
and spend time looking atwhat they're talking about

(44:44):
and then exploring it yourself.
I mean, I remember when TikTok came out
and everybody was like, oh my God,
it's vertical, it's short form.
Who's gonna watch this? It'sstupid. I don't understand it.
It's girls lip syncing in the corner
and what it's like,oh, but I don't get it.
I'm not gonna pay attention to it.
And I went out there and said,
and this is in 2017 and 18, 2018.
I'm like, take my TikTokchallenge, load it on your phone,

(45:07):
make a video every day for 30 days
and you'll get the platform.
This is what I did in2016, 2015 with Snap.
Like, I didn't get Snap, it was vertical.
I was like, what is this yellow thing?
I don't have any friends on it,
but I went out every day for 30 days
and made a Snapchat video.

(45:27):
Mostly it was me walking in the hills
behind my house doing a weather report.
One of them even got pickedup by the Snap editorial team
and they ran it, which I love.
But, um, but so the same thing here.
Like, I was at this eventover the last two days
and I spoke about the creator economy,
but there were a lot ofpeople doing sessions
on AI for creators.
And I sat through them
and I learned a ton aboutthings I did not even know.

(45:49):
Like I got like a ton ofdifferent things I wanna look at.
And most of these platforms
and new tools you can try out for free.
So don't be afraid of them.
Just think about like, and,
and also think about what youlike and what you don't like.
Like I'm not a great videoeditor, I'm a bad video editor,
but AI tools let me editvideo like I use to script now

(46:10):
and it does a good jobletting me edit video.
Um, so, and I'm not, I'm aterrible artist. Terrible.
Like I can't, I, I like drawing,but I'm a terrible drawer.
I've never studied it. But with Midjourney
and Dolly was part of chat,GPT and Stable Diffusion.
I create really fun art withthis, you know, my copilot

(46:33):
or my partner, which isnow, now at Dolly three.
'cause I subscribed to chat GPT
and I put them as coverart on my newsletters.
And it's really fun. And Idon't know, in part I do it
for myself and hopefully it resonates.
But all those things let youexplore parts of yourself
that you might not be very good at.
But that with a little help from ai,
you can get a lot better at.

(46:54):
- I like that. But I also likethat there's an element of,
just have fun with it in,
in the underlying subtextof what you're saying.
That it's not so much, don't,don't take it too seriously
- Is no one's watching your tiktoks
- .
How dare you. How dare you. Well, not in
- The first 30 days, .
- I mean, my, my witty banteron what's happening in Marvel

(47:14):
comics is absolutelyrocking the industry. You,
- How dare you, sir.
I was, that was a broad,you not an individual.
You, it was the plural version of you.
- I don't know. I felt like you
pointed at me emotionallythere. It's all I'm
- Saying.
No, no, no, no, no. I mean,
if you take my challengethe first 30 days,
if people start watching it, great.
No one's gonna watch it. Yeah.No one watches my tiktoks.
Now I do, I go out and do like,

(47:36):
I do beach video everytime I'm on a beach.
I'm like, here I am on the beach isn't the
beautiful look at it.
And you know, I got like 500 people
who subscribe to me. Sure. Follow me.
- Do you think that there'ssomething lost in investing in
platforms that may fall off?
I mean, we talk about likeback in the day, again,
back in the pandemic, you know,
there was this big push towardsClubhouse and House party

(47:56):
and you know, all theselive audio platforms.
They were gonna be the next big thing
at Meta for a hot minute.
Uh, now they've all gone by the wayside.
You know, now Be Real is sort
of changing its originalmotif into this more sponsored
and celebrity centric approach.
Um, I,
I feel like sometimes I wannainvest in new platforms.
I also feel like it'sgonna be a waste of time
because I don't thinkthat they're gonna last.
And inevitably I'm almostproven right by just

(48:18):
how ephemeral and quick they end up being.
Um, do you think there's something
to learn from thoseexperiences despite that?
Or is it more about plant your flag
everywhere and see what happens?
- You know, it's, it,well, I don't know if any
of us have enough time to plant our flag
everywhere and see what happens.
Although there are AI toolsthat help things like Opus Clip
as a sponsor of mine, thatallows you to take your long form
and turn it to short form and put it on

(48:39):
these platforms. But that's,
- Hey, if they wanna sponsor me,
I'll keep mentioning them too.
I just wanna point thatout. Yeah. But anyway,
- Go ahead.
Yeah. Okay, cool. Maybe they will.
They're, they're really good.
Um, but, but I, I will say the perception
that creators are havingof platforms is changing.
And I think if you're gonna go out
and invest in these new platforms
and invest your time,you could learn from it

(49:00):
that you can apply in other places.
It is hard to move communitiesfrom one place to another
and particularly hard as a platform dies.
Be like, come on over,we're all going over
to LinkedIn audio events now.
But if you look at theseplatforms as more top
of funnel awareness things, which
by the way, that's what TikTok is.
TikTok is not a place to build a career.
It's a place to build a big audience

(49:21):
and then figure out movingthem somewhere else.
Find out where you wanna move people to,
whether it's Patreon or youknow, Kajabi or use Screen
or Mighty Networks or whatever.
Um, or you know, and, and,and have that already there.
So as you go through this process
of building yourselfup on those platforms,

(49:41):
you are always trying tocapture the creme day.
Like creme, the peoplethat really like you,
your super fans, to an experience
that is controlled and owned by you.
And I say this and I reallyneed to do it myself on LinkedIn
'cause I don't do a verygood job of this either.
And I'm thinking about how to do it.
And I actually went
to a LinkedIn session at thisconference, uh, yesterday,
a friend of mine, Judy Fox,

(50:02):
who gave me some really goodideas about how to do it.
Uh, and to get some ownedand get their email addresses
and start to build thosedirect connections,
which I'm gonna do inthe next couple days.
Anyway, always learn,
but think about them astop of funnel in many ways.
And you know, and,
and if they speak to you, likeI'm, I could be on Instagram
and I could, I mean, I'm on Instagram.
I don't do anything on Instagram.I could be on TikTok doing

(50:24):
more than just shootingvideos of the ocean.
Um, I'm on LinkedIn andI'm deep into LinkedIn.
I'm all in on LinkedIn.
And if LinkedIn, youknow, LinkedIn changes,
like they're taking creator mode away
and they're, they're their layoff,
their their creator partnershipteam, just like most
of the other platformsthey've had layoffs there.
But, um, if you think aboutit as a way to learn and grow
and build and connect,

(50:44):
but then figure out a way toget the people that you work
with the most and other in an owned place.
That's probably a goodway to think about it.
- When you say an owned place, I, I,
I don't wanna presume you meansomething like get them into
a Discord, get them into aSlack, get them somewhere
where you have more direct engagement.
Even an email list, I'm guessing, right?
- Yeah. Or, uh, discord, slack.

(51:05):
Um, you screen has communities,
now Mighty Networks hasprivate label communities
that are really interesting.
Um, Kajabi's got community
'cause they bought, um, theybought Terry Hughes ly, um,
and they also havecourseware and other things.
But think about havingsomething that's more private
for just you and your fans.
Like I'm doing meetups now
and I just do them randomlywherever I go somewhere,

(51:25):
I'm like, Hey, come meet me at a bar.
We're gonna have a drinkand hang out and talk.
And sometimes it's 60 people
and sometimes it's 40 people,sometimes it's 20 people.
Um, you know, when I did one
in Singapore, it was like 10 of us.
It's fine. Um, but thinkabout ways to do that
because now I have peoplethat wanna sponsor my meetups,
which is like, oh cool.
So yeah.
But it didn't start becauseI wanted to have sponsors.

(51:47):
I started just 'cause well, Icould go out and eat by myself
or I could see if therehave any readers here
who may wanna hang out with me.
- I, I love the idea ofTikTok is top of funnel.
I think that's the one thingthat I wanna pull away from all
this, which is that, youknow, it, it doesn't,
not every platform isgood for the long term.
And I think to your point,like you really do need
to think about it as a a as afunnel or a waterfall, right?

(52:08):
How does this lead to capturing something
that is really valuable,
but also doubling back tothe idea that it's actually
as much as possible also about
real world interactions, right?
It's 60 people at, ata meetup isn't as grand
as having 600,000 views on a video,
but it's 60 real people
with whom you can havedeep engaging conversations
between each other and to each other.

(52:29):
And that kind of interaction is,
is should be your end result.
Right? It's about buildingthose connections and,
and even if you're tryingto sustain a business,
that's the way to make it work.
- Well. And if they're theright people, companies will pay
to get that access as well.
Yeah. Right. So yeah, it's, it's super.
And remember, platforms change.
I mean, had I spent a lot of time on Snap,

(52:50):
I would've learned a lot aboutstories and this and that,
but kinda was like a, uh,
a creator manager post on LinkedIn today.
I just love this. He was like, you know,
I put my clients on Snap.
Um, but they really don'tshow enough skin for Snap.
And Snap has become verymuch of a, you know, it's,
it's like, yes, it'sgreat if you wanna do that
and you can make a lotof their, it was like,
I think tiktoks Diamondswhere they crystals on Snap,

(53:12):
you make a lot of crystals or whatever,
but you know, I'm not gonnado a hundred pictures a day on
Snap and I'm, you know, nobodywants to look at my skin.
Um, but that's a, you know, that
that would be a platformI would abandon a lot
of energy on, but Iwould've learned from it.
- Let's talk about Snap for asecond, which had its heyday
and is now sort of struggling.

(53:34):
They had a recent recall of drones,
but the one thing thatpeople do go back to
for Snap is exactly what you said.
Like, it's, it's a place tosee a lot of skin, even though
of course it's not,you know, adult or, or,
or, you know, um,
intentionally adult, Ishould say. In nature
- It's more juvenile, but yeah. Okay. Well
- It is, but I mean, that's my point.
Like, if I'm a creator today
and I am looking forgrowth and opportunities

(53:58):
and building, what are some things
that you've learned overthe course of your career
that you would point me towards?
What are things that, notso much the, like how do I,
you know, find my first 10,000followers on LinkedIn so much
as like, what are the,the, the, the truisms
that you've learned overthe course of your career
that you would point somebody
towards at the beginning of theirs?
- I would say find outwhat you really like
and what you're interestedin and what you want to do.

(54:19):
And just do that. So many people like try
and do the what the hot thing is.
Now we're gonna go on the hot trend
or we're gonna, you know,everybody's doing Mr.
Beast style, reality
and challenge video, so I'm gonna do that.
Well, you know what, you'regonna burn out on that
and you're not gonna like itand it's gonna be painful.
And, and, and you know,
eventually you're gonna belike, Ugh, I'm gonna quit.
But if you're doing somethingthat you really like

(54:40):
and you can build that in,it's a much more sustainable,
like, I I, it turns outI really like writing
and sharing my opinionsand, and doing that.
But, you know, every nowand then I like doing
something goofy and silly.
I like, I'm just gonna do it.And if people like it, great.
If they wanna come alongfor the ride, great.
If they don't, I don't care.
And by the way, that's thedefinition of a creator to me.

(55:03):
The definition of a creatoris somebody who's gonna
do it because they like it.
And hopefully other peoplecome along for the ride
where the influencersis just doing the things
that they think aregonna build big audiences
so they can influencepeople and make money.
Maybe that's what you wantto do, but figure that out.
But I would say you'd be gonnabe much better off mentally
if you just do the thingsyou like and hone your craft
and bring people along for the ride.

(55:23):
And then hopefully builda big enough audience so
that you can all, you know,revel in the community
that you've built andmaybe make money too.
- When you think aboutyour legacy in this space
and the creator spaceand the technology space
and the media space,what are the things you
want people to take away?
What's the one thing thatyou would point to as like,
this is the impact I wanted to have?
- I don't know. It's kind oflike, it's, it's legacy is one

(55:44):
of those things that I'm like,
I never really even think about.
'cause I just wanna have fun
and do the things for methat are enjoyable, which
how I've lived my career and, you know,
I wanna build safe spaces for everybody.
I want to be, um, theperson who's the champion
of the creator, not the businesses,
even though I built big businesseson the backs of creators.
Um, but it's always like doingthe right thing for people

(56:07):
and, um, but also like, youknow, don't be so serious.
Have fun, try and have fun with stuff
and if you're havingfun, hopefully people can
have fun along with it.
So I dunno if that's a legacy or not,
but, um, you know, don'ttake yourself seriously.
Don't take the world worldtoo seriously and try
and enjoy your time here.
And you know, if you find,if you glom onto something

(56:28):
or you can help other people, great.
Um, it's not a very good answer,
but I'm not really thatmuch on the whole, like,
I wanna be on a bust outsideof a US Supreme Court. I don't
- Like that.
I, that's not the kind oflegacy stuff I care about.
No, I I I, the kinds
of things you're talking aboutare the things I care about.
And hopefully people listening
and watching do too, it shouldn'tbe about building a career

(56:49):
so that you're, you know,on the Supreme Court,
it should be about having aneffect on the people's lives
that you're building for.
And that, that to me resonates.
That's, that's what I care about.
- Well try and think of one famous person
from 500 years ago.
Okay, I can think of Christopher Columbus,
how about a thousand years ago?
Oh, 500 years ago. Definitely Gutenberg.
Um, but you know, we'reall gonna fade into history

(57:13):
and very, you know, so
make sure you just take care
of people while you're here. Yeah,
- Not me, I'm gonna live forever,
but I I get that foryou. I understand. Well,
- No, it, even if youdo, no one's gonna know
what you did 500 years ago.
- That's a fair point.- Plus they're still listening
to your podcast because you're telling
those stories. But you know,
- God, can you imaginehow boring that would be?

(57:33):
I mean, that's right.That's, you know, plus,
but you gotta imagine 500 years from now,
it's all being beameddirectly into your head.
They wouldn't even know whatto do with the data from today.
- Well, 500 years from now,
we're all gonna be littleectoplasmic balls floating
around the universe, you know,
disassociated from reality in our own
virtual filter bubbles.
So, you know, I, I mean, I don't know.
- Well, I think we're ending on a fairly

(57:54):
optimistic, uplifting note then.
I love it, Jim, this hasbeen a tremendous pleasure
and frankly a little, uh,
more forward thinking than
I was considering whenwe started. So thank you.
- Cool. No problem. Uh,
and I'll see you on theEctoplasmic bubble other side.
- I can't wait. Um, ifpeople want to join, uh, and,
and learn more about what you're up to,
you want them, where,where should they go?
What's the best place to follow along

(58:15):
with, uh, what you're working on?
- Go to LinkedIn, connectwith me, follow me,
and subscribe to NewsletterInside the Creator Economy.
It comes out every week
and you get hopefully some fun stuff along
with my takes on some of the big stories
and the news stories you should know.
And then I'll occasionally just drop
in something that I'm interested in.
So hopefully you will be too.
- Awesome. Thank you againso much for the time.
Have a great day. No
- Problem.

(58:36):
Thanks Jason. Bye.