The Value of Going Viral [Ryan Crowe]

Leave feedback for Jason directly: https://watch.jogg.co/r/K1Nr

Until recently, Ryan Crowe was leading marketing and community building for Shortboxed, a startup with an online marketplace for verified and authenticated comic books. But after being let go due to cutbacks, he took to LinkedIn to announce his departure and ask for some help from his followers.

What followed was a massive, explosive post that generated over 800K impressions and nearly 5,000 likes - a huge leap for someone with a few thousand connections. On today's podcast, we discuss how he handled that sudden leap in attention, blowback he experienced from commenters, and what he's doing with all the new social momentum.

See the post for yourself: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7211832216098603009

The Podcast Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeUjBzgS9MfQ4arXwyeKwo2ehifKp-8Hi 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
- What struck you then that you needed
to tell this story broadly?
- I ha I think I haveto try something else.
And I'm like, maybe thisis the time where I kind
of swallow my pride or my ego and, um,
and go post on LinkedIn
and say, Hey, in, in, in my
network, is there anybody that can help?
- But at the same time,it's interesting the number
of people who are responding, going,
it doesn't really matterhow this happened.

(00:20):
It happened. You're such a great writer.
You know, reach out. I'dlove to help kind of a thing.
- Uh, I think the best thingyou can do is consume and ask.
And I don't know if it getsmore complicated than that.
Like, if you wanna be abetter writer, the trick
that every great writer hassaid, even bad writers know,
um, is you gotta read more.
- Welcome to BuildingValue. I'm Jason Nellis.
Have you ever posted onsocial media and it went viral

(00:41):
and you kind of didn'tmean for it to go viral.
Now maybe you've got someproblems you didn't anticipate.
Well, that's the topic ofconversation with today's guest.
I'm chatting with RyanCrowe, who's the former head
of community and marketing for Shortboxed.
Shortboxed is a marketplace for curated
and authenticated comic books
that people can buy and sell freely.
And Ryan was an integralpart of the early formation

(01:04):
of the company, although Ishould note he wasn't actually
technically a co-founder.
And that's really important to the story.
Later, Ryan's LinkedIn postabout being let go from the
company lit a fuse thathe didn't anticipate.
And it kind of exploded
with users having strongopinions about many
different facets of the story.
And a lot of them also trying

(01:24):
to turn his former CEOinto a kind of villain.
He and I talked about thegenesis of the post itself,
how it exploded overnight,what the aftermath was,
and what he's doing now withhis job hunt and career.
We also talked about what brands
and even public figures cando when a big post goes viral
and you're not anticipating it.
What kind of strategic stepsyou can take to take advantage

(01:45):
or to maybe tamp down the flame if
it's not as good as you want it to be.
We also nerded out aboutcomic books and marketing.
'cause when he and I gettogether, it's kind of what we do.
Also, I should note at thebeginning of this show,
I refer to him as Dr.
Crow because that's his handleacross social media. Doctor,
- Doctor, doctor, doctor,- Doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor.

(02:05):
- It's kind of our shtick. If you like
what you watch in here, pleasebe sure to like, subscribe,
leave a comment, leave a review.
All those things. They matter a lot.
And with that, here's RyanCrowe, Dr. Ryan Crowe.
Welcome. Good to see. I'm sorry. Not, not.
Doctor, are we, are we at,um, uh, Dr. Emeritus now?
I don't know. It's hard toknow. Titling sometimes. We're,
- We're, um, Dr.

(02:27):
ERUs in Residence Noble Laureate Ryan
- In perpetuity in PhD LSD. Got it. Okay.
- LSD for sure.- Yeah, obviously. Uh, good to have you.
Thanks for joining. Um,
lot going on in yourworld these days, man.
Uh, you got, uh, you know,
you got some, you gotsome stuff happening.
You want to give everybody a quick sort
of rundown on your background

(02:47):
and sort of help, uh,help set some context for,
for why we're chatting today.
- Sure. Um, well, youknow, uh, lots going on
and nothing's going on at the same time.
It's one of thoseparadoxes of, uh, you know,
the duality of existence.
I think my, my backgroundis a, uh, generally I'm a,
I'm a marketing, uh,uh, a veteran marketer.
I've been doing marketingfor about 12 years.

(03:08):
Um, my in school, it's not what I studied.
I wanted to be a foreignintelligence analyst.
I wanted to be a professor
of a professor of Russia at one point.
Crazy background. But Iended up becoming a, uh,
this is gonna be a sentence
that you probably won't hearvery often for good reason,
um, and some bad reasons.
I was a, uh, uh, a Google Plus, um,
influencer very early. Um, hold on,

(03:28):
- On, hold on.
Yeah, I didn't know that was a thing.
I'm discovering this on the fly. Uh,
- No, I thought we, Ithought you knew this.
- I did not. I did not.
First of all, I didn't knowthat there were Google plus
influencers, and I really didn't know that
that was something you held a title in.
- Yeah, a ton of peopleknew. And then nobody knew.
Again, one of the duality of of existence kind of things.
So let me, let me just,let me define it then.

(03:49):
So, when Google Plus firstlaunched, there were a few users
who came on very, very earlyvia the, you know, sort of,
uh, internal invites.
Um, I got one through, um,a friend in college and, uh,
and, uh, effectively theyhad sort of the run of,
of the network until theyopened it up for everybody.
But one of the things I did,
I was already doing social media in,
in grad school when I joined, um,

(04:10):
as sort of a part-time job.
And I was like, you know what?This might be a good place
for me to sort of make my stake
and uh, uh, and develop something here.
'cause this is a new socialnetwork. Google's doing it,
so there's opportunity for success here.
Um, and so I did it.
And so I, I basically said, okay, well
how is Google actually connectedto the rest of the world?
And I was just thinking aboutthe opportunity that I had
and I'm like, well, everybodylooks up things on Google.

(04:32):
It's, you know, it was 2012when this happened, 2013.
And I said, well, if, if,
if everybody's looking things up on Google
and there's business profiles associated
with these other social networks, I think
that there's probably some sort of, uh,
coalescing about to happen.
And Google will probablybring everything in.
So Google Plus will be sort ofthe general hub for a person
who goes onto the internet.

(04:53):
So I said, well, if that'sgoing to be the case,
people need to know how to use this.
Not just people, butpeople with businesses.
And so I started, um, opining very openly
and confidently as a , somebody
who had not had anybackground in, in marketing
or, uh, pretty much, uh, about how
to use Google Plus as a platform.
And so that included sayingthings like, you know, you need
to learn how to optimizeyour, uh, business profiles,

(05:16):
which had not existed yet.
I just assumed they were coming. They did.
Um, you need to optimizeyour business profile for,
you know, location based searches
so people can find yourbrick and mortar store.
If you're an online store,this is how you can,
uh, put this here.
Now here's, here's
how you need to beinteracting with people.
There's a real opportunityto engage with people, um,
who will be using thisplatform for the first time.
'cause it's a new socialnetwork. And they'll have, uh,

(05:37):
the regular user will have more
of an investment towardsfiguring out how to engage.
Whereas on the other socialnetworks that had been out
for a while at the time, uh, Facebook, uh,
at this point was, Idon't know, 10 years old,
uh, not quite 10 years old.
But, uh, you know, people hadalready come to sort of take
for granted the connections
and sort of the, uh, ways that you need
to communicate on those platforms.

(05:57):
And also they became aware of
how marketing worked on those platforms.
And so then, uh, person tobusiness communication is yeah,
became very stilted quickly.
I think it's pretty obviousit's still that way,
of course not on Google Plusbecause it doesn't exist,
but, uh, on social media in general.
Uh, so anyway, Google and me
and a few other userswere doing similar things.
Somebody was like, here'show you build a community.
Here's how you meet new people. Here's

(06:18):
how you use Google Plus's feature set.
And I was the how to useGoogle Plus for business.
So Google reached out
and they were like,Hey, you're killing it.
We're gonna put you onour suggested user list.
Now, suggested user list,uh, had already existed
as a concept at this time, and Twitter
and that kind of thingwhere you would follow
cool celebrities or whatever.
Google Plus was like, we want celebrities
and we want, um, actual people.
And so there they put me on.

(06:39):
And so everybody who signed up
for a Gmail account in2013 had to follow me.
That's a lot of people. It ended up being
around 600,000 followers.
Now, most of those peoplenever actually saw me.
They just had me in theircircles, um, their circles,
which was the, the grouping title.
But, um, it was like meand then like above me,
and the suggest userlist was a Snoop Dogg,

(06:59):
and then below me was like,mark Cuban, and sure will.
I am of the Black Eye Peas.And then it was crazy.
So that actually I, I used that to,
to actually start my career.
I said, look what I've done,I've got this giant following.
Um, and uh,
and that's how I got wentfrom doing, uh, Russian
and ancient Russian studiesto be, uh, to my career.

(07:20):
- Well, we first, I want to call it,
this is probably the mostanybody's talked about at Google
Plus in at least a decade.
So I think, yeah, I'm getting,
we've accomplishedsomething right there, you
know,- .
Yeah. I'm getting money from them right
now.- .
Oh, no doubt. I'm sure all9 cents. Yeah, that's right.
Um, but I do think that thatsets a really good tone for
what your career ended up being.
I mean, from there, you were,you know, marketing at Twilio.

(07:40):
You were at Sutherland Gold, which is one
of the premier marketing firmsin Silicon Valley, which is
where you and I met launching Unboxed
as part of my work at Package.
Um, you know, you basically,you know, you've, you've been
around the block at a coupleof different companies,
and then most recently, I, I'dlove for you to talk about,
you know, sort of whereyou were most recently
and what happened there
and what led to this bigLinkedIn post that, that sort

(08:03):
of has been a big trigger for you.
- So recently, um, I had meta couple of buddies at Twilio
and, and we started a, a, a blog
and it was a comic book blog.
Um, and, uh, this isabout 10 years ago now.
And we used this blog as a way
to get into comic bookconventions for free,
because if you had a blogback then they considered you
press, you get press passes.

(08:23):
I'd have to pay for any comic conventions.
Um, pretty, pretty sweet deal for me.
Um, but, uh, my buddies who had,
who had, I had justcome outta grad school.
I had, I was in in tons of student debt.
I had no, like, money to my name, really.
I just moved across thecountry to San Francisco,
gave up all my belongings.
So anyway, but thesetwo buddies of mine, uh,
had been in their career for a while
and had, you know, sort of personal wealth
and that they were, uh,

(08:44):
and they were like, okay,well we've taken this blog,
why don't we keep moving it forward?
And so we started goingto all these conventions.
Um, they started buying veryrare and expensive comics.
I couldn't keep up with them.So I stopped doing that.
We kept doing the blog and,
and uh, finally they were like, well,
we're gonna turn thisinto a full-blown, uh,
comic dealer company,
and we're gonna dealwith comics after we buy.
And I was like, well,I, I don't have enough
money to, to invest in that.
So I kind of backed out. Ihelped them as, as needed

(09:06):
with like marketing consultation,
just as a friend because we're buddies.
And then, um, eight yearslater, they turned it into, uh,
I guess seven years later, theyturned it into an app called
Shortboxed, which is where I was recently.
And they kept asking me tocome back and work for them,
but I didn't have the sortof personal, um, situation
where I could just not work for money.
I, you know, I had tobe making a paycheck.
And so when I told them a number

(09:27):
and I'm like, if you guyscan ever get to this number,
I will come back and, youknow, rejoin, rejoin the squad.
Uh, so, um, yeah, they finallygot that to that number.
They ra we, we, we, they raised some money
and I came back in as the head
of marketing at sch Shortboxed,uh, marketing and community.
And, uh, yeah. And then I've
been working here forthe past three years.
It has been before I launched into the,
the negative aspect of it.

(09:48):
It was a, a dream come true.I got to work on my own thing.
I got to work with my buddies.
I got to talk about comic books every day.
Look at all, look whatI got going on here.
It's just something I'm super into.
And it's an ex and it's an experience
and an opportunity thatmost people, I would,
I would imagine don't get to,to have, I I got to be my own,
uh, be be my own bossand, and make my own way.

(10:08):
And sort of, I got toset the strategy and,
and I got to do all things
professionally that I wanted to do.
And personally I was able to,uh, marry those two things.
Now, here's what happened. Um,
the- , the dirty details do tell,
- Yeah, we'll, we'll get into it.
So that's been, it wentreally well, um, for a while.
And um, unfortunately, you know,we made some product swings

(10:28):
that didn't quite workout and, uh, uh, uh,
and so we weren't making a lot of money.
And also the company wasdeveloped during the pandemic
and the collectible industry market was
booming during the pandemic.
'cause people were sitting athome, they weren't spending
money on vacations, they weren't going
out, they weren't buying a lot of stuff.
So it was all like, um,sort of this inward looking

(10:48):
rush to like buy theconsumerism turned very
introspective, I, I would say.
And so collectibles, people
started buying tons of collectibles.
So the first year
or half year of shortbucks was, was massive
because tons of people werebuying comics very expensive.
The market was, was crazy.
Um, uh, people wereinvesting in comics, uh,
and people were spendingmore than ever on, on rare
and graded comics like these.

(11:09):
So, uh, the trajectory,their, their projections for
how the business would grow wasbased on what would turn out
to be a flash in a pan,um, era of success.
Now, the industry, uh,continued to do well,
better than it had before the pandemic,
but nothing compared to theheights of the pandemic.
So that really affected the company's,
um, growth trajectory.

(11:31):
And I can't probablytalk too much about it.
Company's still going. Butanyway, that's the fact,
that's the solution I found myself in.
- Right? So what you're speaking
to though is I think thesame parallels that a lot
of other companies, I mean,
this certainly happenedwhile I was at meta.
Uh, you know, a lot
of folks invested in technology directions
and product directions that felt
as if they were the obvious next step.

(11:52):
You know, in a post pandemic world,
a huge investment in live frommost of the platforms that,
that we are still on day to day,
uh, as well as audio, right.
Rooms and, and um, uh, youknow, community, you know,
basically community conversationsover audio rooms was
kind of a big thing for a while.
Um, you know, so I'm notsurprised to hear that, hear.
What, what point did youguys start to see that maybe

(12:14):
that was less of a trendand more of a moment?
- You know, it depends on whoyou ask within the company.
I think that there wassome confirmation bias
of still coupling a moment toa trend, um, which is saying
that yeah, that moment happened,
but the trend is still there.

(12:34):
It was just amplified. I'mnot sure how true that is.
I don't know. I will say,
because there are other,there are other collectible
platforms which are still booming.
Um, for example, the bigcollectible platform for comics
and other collectibles inour, in our, uh, uh, sort
of industries is called what not.
And they are, they benefit fromthe live streaming platform.
That's basically what they'relive streaming collectibles.

(12:55):
So, um, arguably there is a tr
I think that there is a trend.
It just wasn't the trendthat they thought it was.
And so I also think that there's this idea
that calling it a moment,um, might be difficult for,
for certain people to swallow.
And so I don't know if thereever was that recognition, to
- Be honest.
Gotcha. Okay.

(13:15):
Um, so you get to a place
where the trajectory isn't matching
original projections, right?
Things are starting to get alittle less consistent in that,
you know, in, in that world.
Um, talk about what happened,the, you know, the day
that you, the day that you left.
- Yeah. So, I mean, we'd hadlayoffs before, um, I thought,
and this is, this is, uh, my naivete

(13:37):
and it's what I callit in my LinkedIn post.
So people watching are gonna have like a,
a slow somber nodding of the head as an,
you should have seen this coming buddy.
And I, I hear that. Mm,
- Yes.
But I did assume, yes, the,the, the wizard old people
who listen to this podcast,they're all feeling that way.
- Listen, all of you, Iget it. Uh, . But I, okay.
So I assumed that justbecause I, I was there

(14:00):
and I helped pick the name ofthe company, the, the logo.
I was there at thebeginning. The, the voice
of the company is, is my voice.
Like, I, you know, I was like,I think I'm probably okay,
um, from, from the perspectiveof what's happening in,
in the larger industry rightnow, which is layoffs, right?
Um, tons of layoffs. The job market
is insanely bad right now.
It's, it's, it's just crazyfor people looking for a job.

(14:21):
Um, I thought I was, Iwas protected from it.
So when we had, we hadgotten to this point
where we had sort of not made the,
the money we needed to be making.
And so, um, we, and we alsojust hosted a very costly,
but successful from a certain standpoints,
uh, industry convention.
And so I, I'd been out sick for a week,
and then I, I come back,I do the convention,

(14:44):
you know, I was the host of it.
And then my, my buddy
and my boss, he's the CEO,um, was like, Hey, you know,
we have, we need to have a talk.
And it was like a lateafternoon Friday on payday talk.
And I was like, now, every,every part of the, the guy in me
who has lived in startup startups
for my entire careerwas like, you're, you,

(15:05):
you, this is bad for you.
What's about to come is not good.
But I was like, I would never
have, I won't find out like this.
Like, you know, like,how, how bad could it be?
So I thought that somethingbad was happening,
but not, uh, me getting laid
off, which is what ended up happening.
So they, you know, he, he hops on.
He is like, you know,um, this is super hard.
Obviously you've beenhere since the beginning,
and, uh, is my boss.

(15:26):
And, uh, he was your DNA is the
company and yada, yada, yada.
And it was like, no, allnice. And I, I believed him,
but, um, and I still do, uh,
but he is like, you know, wedon't have any, we can't afford
to pay your salary anymore.
And, um, and I was like,no, no, it's such a,
and so I was like, okay,well, maybe I could stay for,
you know, maybe if we cut mysalary a little bit and, uh,

(15:46):
and maybe, maybe I coulddo some work for free
until we like, figure out what the next
round of fundraising is like.
And he gave me the indicator, like,
and I'm not gonna speak forthe future of the company,
but that wasn't going to be a, an option,
and not because of my performance.
It's just didn't make sense to keep me on
because I was, uh, effectivelyif they kept me on,
they would've had to get ridof three other people in a more
diverse, uh, array of roles.

(16:07):
And so it just, it just makes more sense,
as I mentioned in a, in afollow up LinkedIn post, uh,
or a comment on, on the post, um,
you could have one reallywell inflated tire,
or you can have fourkind of inflated tires
and the kind of inflated tires
are gonna go further in a car.
And so the, the businessdecision made sense to me.
We'd had a conversation veryearly on about, you know,
this is a friendship and also a business,

(16:28):
and most startups fail so
that we might have tohave a hard conversation.
It has never been, I havealways kept that in my head,
and I've always been okaywith it. That was the gamble I
- Took.
So, so you're having this conversation
with your CEOI know it's hitting hard in
a lot of different directions.
You're taking this hit sothat three other people don't,
that's a noble sacrifice.
But what struck you then, that you needed

(16:49):
to tell this story broadly, right?
Because some people get laid off,
they don't wanna tell anybody, right?
They wanna keep it to themselves.
They want to spin it in a certain way.
You know, other people,the post is just, Hey, I'm,
I'm leaving and I'mlooking for new pastures
and would love to open myself up.
You, you shared, I wouldsay a, a a, a loving
and sanitized version of
what must have been apretty hurtful moment.

(17:10):
- You know, that's such sointeresting that you ask,
you know, I, um, why did I share it?
Uh, this is going to, this is going
to actually hurt maybe thefuture point you're going
to make about how I waslike a, a good marketer.
Uh, so yeah, it was two monthsfrom when I, from the events
to the Post, and honestly,I, it, it came out,
it came up pretty, I don't,
I'm gonna say impulsively,sort of impulsively.

(17:31):
I mean, it, I, I, I think Iwrite, um, in a certain style
that doesn't make it seem impulsive.
Like it seems like I probably sat there
and thought about it,but that wasn't the case.
I, I was walking my dog
and, uh, you know, I'd just
been looking for a job for two months.
It's the hardest job search I've ever had.
I've also been very luckyto not have had to look
for a job for half a decade.
Um, you know, I've been, uh,

(17:52):
offered positions and,and that kind of thing.
So like, I was, you know,uh, you know, like a,
a a short box that, youknow, my buddies came to me.
And, uh, so, um, lookingfor a job has just not been,
and it was just like, Iwas just in this moment.
And then I had also, thejob market is so bad.
And I was like, okay, well,
it usually takes me a coupleweeks to find a job if I,
if I need to look for one,I have a killer resume.
I'm really confident in my background,

(18:13):
I'm confident in my own skills.
But then all of a sudden,two months had passed
and I had sent out, you don'teven wanna know, like 150
to 200 resumes, um, fora, the first like, uh,
25% of them, each one wastailored, was handmade
for the job title, whichpeople suggest you do,
but it becomes a numbersgame at some point.

(18:33):
And so there, so anyway,I had sent out so many,
and I was kind of like, I ha I think
I have to try something else.
And I'm like, maybe thisis the time where I kind
of swallow my pride or my ego and, um,
and go post on LinkedIn and,
and say, Hey, in, in, in my network,
is there anybody that can help?
Because I, I came to theconclusion that I really needed
to tap into my network and,
and get referred somewhereif I wanted to beat the,

(18:55):
the huge amount of peopleI must be competing
with given the current layoff environment.
Uh, so I wrote this post and,
and I was just gonna, Iwas, you know, I expected it
to be seen by the average 300 people
that see my LinkedIn post.
I've got a pretty big network, but like,
I don't write on LinkedIn very much.
It's not something I'm, onoccasion, I will if, you know,
if I want to, but I'm notlike a LinkedIn person.
Um, so I wrote this post,it turns into this story,

(19:18):
and I'm like, okay, well,
I might as well tell the whole story.
And then I was like, well,what would, you know,
what is actually what's unique about this?
And, and not just saying, Hey,
can I get a, a referral somewhere?
But I, I, that's why I wrote it.
It was just like a, Igotta try something else.
Maybe one of the 300 peoplewho sees this will have a lead,
and then all of a sudden ittakes off 10,000 people see it.

(19:38):
And, you know, uh, uh, youknow, immediately, basically, I,
I didn't even have any hashtags.
I think it was just, I, I don't,you know, it just got seen
by somebody and shared, and then all
of a sudden 15,000 people.
Now I'm starting to get alittle nervous because, um, me
and my friends who startedthe company, uh, the short box
who, you know, who started that company
and I went to work with them, um,
we have a lot of crossover.
I mean, we're friends,cowork, former coworkers.

(20:00):
So I was, I actually reached out to my CEO
and I showed him what I had written, um,
within like two hours of writing it.
Um, and I already started to get picked up
and I asked, Hey, doesthis seem like a fair
representation of this to you?
And I, and I gave him a full edit,
full editing privileges if he wanted them.
He read it, said heagreed with what it said,

(20:20):
and what gave me the blessinggave me his blessing.
So, I mean, it, it ismuch more collaborative.
I mean, when you start readingthe comments, I think a lot
of people think that, um, you know,
they're really trying tofind a villain, right?
I think it's much easierif a story has a, a black
and white villain or, youknow, a very obvious villain,
and there's good and evil.
And, and it just wasn't the case.
And I tried to make thatobvious in my, in my story,

(20:40):
but that's not how people operate.
That's not how people want a story to go.
- Well, there's a coupleof unique aspects to it,
and I, I really encourageeveryone, everyone,
if you haven't already,you know, pause the,
the playback here and go read the post.
I'll make sure it's linked everywhere.
Um, there's a couple of things
that I think drew people's attention in.
The first is you refer toyourself as a co-founder
of the brand, which I think
for some people then raises the question,

(21:01):
if you were a co-founder,how did your co you know,
how did your other founder kick you out?
And of course, it's, it's notabout kicking you out so much
as you have found the brand,
but you weren't actually a, a co-founder
of the company in its state,which is a, a, a, a different
but important distinction, not,
and that's not to criticizeyour writing so much
as I think it's aninteresting framing for people
to get pulled in.

(21:22):
I actually think it's areally smart way to frame it,
because now you've gotsomebody's attention
going, well, this co-founder got killed.
I gotta figure out what happened here.
Um, and you're right, I do think
that people are oftenlooking for a villain.
If you look through some of the comments,
they're definitely trying to vilify your,
your former CEO your friend.
But at the same time, it'sinteresting the number of people
who are responding going, you know,

(21:42):
it doesn't really matterhow this happened.
It happened. You're such a great
writer, you know, reach out.
I'd love to help kind of a thing.
I do think one of the,the, the balances that,
that your comments kind
of do an interesting jobachieving is that, you know,
50% are looking for, uh, a villain.
You know, or want tocritique your story about
how did you not know, youknow, sort of take making you

(22:03):
or your CEO the villain of your own story
or the, it doesn't really matter.
Like, we're all in thistogether. That really sucks.
And it's, it, I mean, again, I'm,
I'm not actually doing the hard math,
but it almost feels 50 50 in the comments.
Um, I think I maybe was thefirst person to comment, like,
I got people sent to my LinkedInfrom it, from the amount
of traffic you generated,like, it was, it went fast.

(22:26):
- It was big. It was weird. Yeah.
I mean, it was a slow news day.
It must have been aslow news day. I dunno.
- Sure. I, yeah, I mean,
but with now, as of as ofrecording today, 4,900,
you know, direct, you know,likes, hearts, et cetera,
almost 300 comments, nearly90 reposts. I mean, and
- There's, from the, fromthe internal analytics, it's,

(22:46):
it's reached almost, um, 800,000 people.
- I mean, that's, so that's a- Big one.
- That's viral. If there is adefinition of viral, I think.
So now that you've had aminute to sort of, you know,
separate from that was theday it went viral, fun,
overwhelming, scary,frustrating, like what,

(23:06):
what would you say your, youremotional state was that day?
- Uh, I'm gonna be honest, I was, I, I I,
I wrote a follow up post,
and I kind of explained some
of this if people are interested,
but, uh, for the folks just listening,
I was extremely embarrassed.
Um, there are people in the world
who need more help than I do.
I'm, I'm comfortable, uh,financially I've got a good,

(23:28):
I've got a great profession.
I work good friends, I'vegot a supportive partner.
Um, nothing is gonna happen to me.
I mean, beyond the, the, thetemporary, uh, lack of a job.
Um, but nothing's gonna happen to me.
And so I was like, there are people who,
whose stories should absolutely be being
told instead of mine.
And after, you know, I,I still believe that.
Um, so that embarrassment remained,

(23:49):
but also, like, um, I was also embarrassed
because like, the, the onething that pe that a lot
of people are ever gonnaknow about me is that I, is
that I failed very publiclyand I was sad about it,
and they'll never think about it again.
And do I care about whatthose people think long term?
I don't know. But I would'vemuch rather some version of,
you know, the good things Ihave ac I had accomplished
beyond a, a good, a good,a well written post,

(24:12):
um, had reached those people.
I wish, you know, a marketing
strategy that I'd come up with.
I wish a campaign that I'dworked on had done that.
Um, so that was my initial thought.
And then I was like, okay, well now I have
to work really hard to beon top of this narrative
because I'm not the onlyperson affected by it.
I have my friends, I have whatever
future job I'm going to have.
I have my past, you know, ifpeople decide to look into it.
So now I'm thinking about,again, I was, I'm in comms and,

(24:34):
and sort of PR and marketing.
So my, my head's like,what is the worst thing
that could happen now?
I started answering questions
and I started being, uh, very honest
and transparent, authentic as I could be,
because I knew now
that I had a brand thatI had to live up to.
Um, and I,
because I had, I had sort
of established one for myself overnight.
I mean, I, it's me, but alsothere's a lot of other sides

(24:57):
of me that are not in there.
I'm a comedian. I'm, uh,I'm, I'm very dark humored
and, uh, you know, that kind of thing.
And I couldn't, I couldn't just, like,
I couldn't live out there.
I couldn't put that out therein the context of the post,
because I know that the, thenatural extension of some
of those of, of that might
look like bitter or, or something.
I dunno, who knows. Um, soanyway, embarrassed first.
Then I, I went into sortof a detached, um, uh,

(25:20):
a control mode of liketurning into marketing, like,
how am I gonna brand myself?
How do I keep this going?
How do I continue to lookgood without looking like a
complainer for, because I hadto worry about my future jobs.
I knew people would see it. And then, uh,
I don't know if I was ever excited.
I got, um, some inbound requests
for interviews, which was great.
I already got more than my, my 150 to 200 resumes did.

(25:43):
Uh, so that was really nice.
Uh, people when they lookme up now, talk about it
to me in my interviews andthat kind of thing, um,
several people reached outfor, for a podcast, um,
business Insider wantedto do a story about it.
So it, it's now it's kind of, it,
it did become a little overwhelming.
Um, and now it's kind of died down
and I can kind of justdo what I'm going to do

(26:05):
with the attention that I got.
And yeah,
- I think that's healthy.
I, I think there's somepeople, you know, the, the
immediate viral nature ofthe Haua girl comes to mind,
which is not a sentence Ithought I would ever say.
Um, but, you know, there's alot of flash in the pan moments
where some people are ableto turn them into, you know,

(26:26):
minor momentary media careerssay that 10 times fast.
But also the impulse towant to bring more attention
to yourself, I think is reallystrong for a lot of people.
And I think it's, there'ssomething commendable in the idea
of, like, your focus was less on
how do I make this more about me
and more, I, I actually needto make this more about others
who need this attention more than I do.

(26:48):
Um, particularly I thinkit's really important
to note you weren't seeking it, right?
This wasn't something thatyou wrote with the intention
of trying to find quote, howto go viral end quote. Didn't
- Even cross my mind, Jason.
- Yeah, I'm sure- It's, it's so strange for a marketer.
I mean, I'm a, I I would kill for things
to go viral in other contexts.
And I think about it. I mean,

(27:09):
I think about it almost all the time.
Um, but this was, it was such, um,
it's not gonna sound honest, I, I think,
but it was such just amoment of, of my actual
like, I'm gonna sound like a robot.
It was just a moment ofjust like a human desire
to tell something.
And I think that's whatpeople saw, I guess.
- I think it's reallyimportant to share something

(27:30):
vulnerable when you can andwhen you're comfortable with it.
And I think we're pretty good at, despite
how much crazy there is inthe world of social media,
I'd like to think that we'regood at sussing out at least
some of the bs of the, thetruly vulnerable versus, uh,
you know, the stuff that's not,
and you also, again, as youpointed out, you're not somebody

(27:51):
who posts on LinkedIn on the regular.
It's not as if you have along list of posts trying
to achieve this same endthrough different writings
and different formats.
So, um, I I, I want totake a step back though.
I think there's an, aninteresting, let's play a game.
You're a marketer, you work for a brand.
A brand has a viral momentlike this, right? That's right.
Uh, huge number of impressions.

(28:12):
You know, you've got maybea day or two to capture it.
And again, I want tocontextualize this not
as Ryan who's looking for a role, right?
But rather a company thathas a moment like this or,
or an influencer that, thathas been working really hard
and finds that sort ofhockey stick moment.
What can you do with that tokeep some of that energy going?
'cause nobody, nobodydoes the hockey stick

(28:34):
and then stays up there, right?
Everything comes back to earth,
but wherever you landon earth could be higher
than where you started.
How do you find that newplateau that's larger, higher,
better than where youwere at the first place?
- Well, one, I think that you have
to really take a step back as a brand
and analyze what about thisis different than everything

(28:55):
else that I've done.
Sometimes you're gonna havean unsatisfying answer.
You were at the rightplace at the right time.
You can't recreate that.
Um, since you can't recreatesome of those conditions
for virality, you justhave to say, okay, well,
what about this did work?
Now you might actually find that this, uh,
this would've worked foryour past posting, you know,
if they had been written atthe right time or whatever,
or you had done something.

(29:15):
But, uh, what I think the, the,the new thing that you have
as a brand is the response itself, going
through the comments, where it was shared,
how it was shared, what was added onto it,
and, uh, collating thatinformation and synthesizing it
and being like, okay,
what does the data sayabout the success of this?
How can we continue toreach out to people who, uh,

(29:36):
got the message that we liked?
And what messages did welearn people wanted to hear?
And what did we findout people didn't like?
Like now all of a sudden, you
can start to develop a strategy.
You've got the resources,you've got the information.
And if you, and if you wantto continue making that,
that hockey stick, stayup, you have to, you have
to find those things andcontinue to develop for those,
for whatever you discovered.

(29:57):
For example, in my post,people wanted to human moment.
Um, uh, uh, so I, if I,I, I did follow it up
with a post in orderto get some eyes on it.
Hey, I know you liked my human moment,
but there are otherhumans that need help too,
and I think you should reallybe paying attention to them.
So my, my strategy was, okay,
well if you liked thishuman moment, here's more,
here's more of that for you.

(30:18):
Um, and I, I honestly think it's, it's not
that I don't think it's that difficult to,
to have a follow up toa viral post, you have
to expect that it won't happen again.
You have to, that can't be the goal.
It has to be give people what they wanted
and they told you what they wanted.
If, if you over-engineer it,
and you try to, if you try toforce something, uh, I think

(30:39):
that's when people, not onlywill you turn off the people
that you saw sort of generally, I think
that you can also have people turn
against you, which is different.
They'll, they'll, um, and,
and instead of championingyou, they'll vilify you.
Yeah. Hey, how dare you usethis moment to, to do this?
- What heuristic do you use to make sure
that you're not latching onto the wrong

(31:00):
aspect of a viral moment?
Because I know that there aresome people in some brands
who will look at a viral moment
and they'll just tryto xerox it, you know?
And then of course it gets as,
as if you xerox the same document over
and over again, it getsdistorted and it doesn't copy,
and you're not really getting brass tacks.
You're sort of getting a very thin view,
a thin rep reproductionof the original thing,
and nobody's gonna be interested in that.

(31:20):
So do you have a kind offramework that you use
for identifying what aspect
of moments like this mightbe worth latching onto versus
we're getting signal here,you know, it's 800,000
to your, you know, to your thing.
Like, do you latch onto somethinglike 800,000 impressions?
Do you latch onto the 88 shares?
Is it even an an, is itanalytical or is it emotional?

(31:42):
Like, where's, where does the, the,
where does the bullseye land for you?
- I think, I think at, for me,
it's a more emotional than analytical.
I mean, I, I do incorporatean, this is my, for me,
for my post, for example, um,
I am analytical, analytical by nature.
The post was probably informedby my marketing background.
I can't, I mean, that's part of who I am.
So I think, uh, even,even even in sort of my,

(32:05):
not not deliberateattempt to make it happen,
I still probably utilize thingsthat I know are good parts
of social media stories, justas, as a natural inclination.
But for brands, I do thinkyou have to be analytical.
I mean, if you really wanna use that to,
to accomplish whatever goal you have.
So, you know, if, if Ithink it's just, you know,
okay, we've got this moment.
What KPIs do we wanna keep increasing?
You know, what, did welike the impressions?
Did we, did we get moredownloads of the app?

(32:26):
Did we get more mentions?Did that lead to more,
you know, download to the app?
Did it lead to better user retention?
Um, did it lead to more sales, yada, yada.
You find the KPI that's important to you.
And I think you have tobe analytical about it.
If, if it, if you aredoing, uh, if you're trying
to recreate content for abusiness purpose, I don't see
how you can't, there could be the case
that you just want good brand sentiment,
which brand sentiment is stillsomething you can calculate.

(32:48):
But I think that's less analytical
and more how do we, how dowe just share another thing
that is true that is along these lines?
Is that a framework? I'mnot sure. Probably not.
I think that's, that's where I go.
And then I develop a frameworkbased on those answers.
So for example, I'm, I'mvery community forward.
That's, that's my philosophy.
Communities build companiesnot the other way around.
And I, uh, I, I think ifyou are trying to de uh,

(33:10):
develop something for a community,
there's a bunch of frameworks you can use.
Um, I write about a fewof them on my LinkedIn
embarrassingly, uh, contradictory to
what I said about being on LinkedIn.
Um, but I do share that sometimes.
Uh, so I do, I thinkif, I think, I think if,
if whatever your communityframework is already,
then you have to latch into it.
'cause you don't wanna build something new
for a specific post.
I think that's probably inefficient.
Um, but you have to, you have to learn

(33:31):
or figure out how totie in what happened to
what you already have going on.
And if you don't have anything going on,
that's a different, a different problem.
So the framework I use,I always think about how,
how am I gonna add value to somebody?
And people, you can add value
to somebody's lives ina couple different ways.
There's a takeaway. Theycan share something, right?
Because they can inform, they can educate,
they can connect or they can entertain.
And those are like the fourbuckets I think about a lot.

(33:52):
Um, and I'm like, well,what about if, if I'm going
to make this happen again,what's the next version of this?
Um, so for example, in my post,my next post was, uh, hey,
you know, you, something went viral.
What do I do now? Right?
And then, um, and then I talked about,
and then I, I wanted to, uh,uh, connect with people who,
who had, were in thesame positions that I am,
and I wanted to inform them

(34:12):
that there are other people there.
And so those are thetwo buckets that I sort
of naturally filled for, for a brand.
It's that, I think it's the same process.
Do, are you informing them?
Are you connecting with them,
educating them, entertaining them?
And what does that mean foryour brand? That's my framework.
- I sounds as good as any, I mean, it's,
it certainly hits the rightnotes as far as I know.
You're a better marketer thanme, so I'm gonna trust you.
- And I know if that's true.- I mean, it is, you know,

(34:35):
nobody hires me for marketing anymore.
Not after the incident. .
- Yeah. Right, right.- Whatever. I
- Don't know.
We don't go to Helsinki anymore. That's
- Right.
Yeah. , what's the line from the Avengers?
Uh, this reminds me a lot of Budapest, you
and I remember Budapest very differently.
Kind of feels like that. Yeah,
- I, uh, I rememberthe line from Dodgeball
where they're like, oh, remember the
Helsinki incident in 1994?
And that's how I always ference

(34:55):
- That.
Yeah. And, and then, anyway,yes, exactly. Um, I dig that.
I, I I wanna really acknowledgethe follow up being less
about you and more abouttrying to spread the word.
Um, I think, you know,I have a certain feeling
that this is gonna end up being the thing
that does get you your next role.
Because I think that whenyou post a kind of, um,

(35:17):
vulnerable moment, and youcan turn it into something
valuable, not only doesthat show, you know, your,
your humanizing yourself,
but you're also showing howgood a marketer you can be
and creating those kinds of moments.
And now you have a greatdata point to look at.
Um, what do you, you know,in the meantime, right,
as you're job hunting anddoing all of that, like
what are your feelings about the

(35:39):
comic book industry in general?
Because I think that, that,
if there's one thing you have strong
opinions about, it's about media.
Uh, and more specifically, you know,
comic books in recentyears have turned into
a much more mainstream media.
Um, there's so many more, um, uh,
materials and ips and, you know, and,
and new, um, uh, charactersthat are coming out of lots

(36:00):
of smaller studios than they're used to.
It's not all DC and Marvel,you know, boom Studios,
um, Skybound, right?
All the, you know, theguys, the image, right?
The guys that used to be smaller presses
are now kind of in the big leagues.
Um, are we at superhero saturation?
Are we at a point now
where the market is a little overwhelmed
with sort of comic book ips?
- Yeah, I do think so. Ithink, I think we're at a point

(36:21):
where certain approachesto, um, the IP that we have
for, for example, the MCU,um, I think people are,
I think they've seen itnow, like they get it.
Uh, like the MCU formula,I think is, is is it works.
It's, they're interesting movies.
I think that's something that,that people are, are used to.
So yeah, mainstream, I thinkwe're, we're hitting a point

(36:42):
where if there's not a,if there's not something
that is done now that thatcould be a real, um, a bummer
for, for comic IP enthusiasts and,
and people who are intothat kind of thing.
Uh, the recent movies I feellike haven't done very well.
Now we're still talking,when I say haven't done well,
we're still talking abouthuge movies in general, right?
Um, but I do think that nowwe are going to experience

(37:04):
what media gets, uh, whenthere's too much of something.
And so one of my favorite things
to think about here islike in the eighties,
rock and roll, right?
Rock and roll had turnedinto this extremely bombastic
theatrical production, right?
There was, um, you know,think of Kiss, right?

(37:25):
And like, and like, uh, youknow, uh, Bonjovi the big hair
and then like Twisted Sister,
you know, he's crazy White snake.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lights. Exactly.
And so the response to thatwas grunge music, right?
Um, arguably there was there,
there we could even talkabout punk being a response
to the glam rock excesses of,uh, of the seventies, right?
So we've got a couple ofthings that start happening.

(37:46):
I think there's precedent herefor comic books, right? Yeah.
We're getting thesegiant, these giant movies.
I mean, the Avengers of the biggest
movies on the planet, right?
Um, uh, but what, what comes out of that?
Is there a stripped down version of that
that really appeals to people more?
And I think that is wherewe're about, if, if,

(38:06):
if the cycles are similar, Ithink that's where we get now.
There's, there's examples ofsuccessful smaller versions,
indie versions, grungeversions, punk versions
of comic book movies that havecome out in, in recent times
that speak to that, butnot sustained success,
which I think is whatwe would get to, right?
So for example, there's a moviecalled Super starring Rain
Wilson and, um, uh, Elliot Page.

(38:29):
And, um, it is a, it isa, uh, a deconstruction of
what would actually happen if a, uh,
and it was, it was released in like 2007.
It's an older movie, but it was like,
it was a res maybe a little later,
it was a response to these big movies.
Um, and it's, and it's a deconstruction of
what would happen ifsomebody actually tried
to become a Batman and sort of what kind
of person it would taketo be, to, to do that.
And then what would actuallyhappen if they tried to take on

(38:51):
a room full of, of, of gangstersand that kind of thing.
Um, and then you startgetting, um, you know,
what are some recent moviesyou get the, the, the Indies
that are like, uh, there'sa movie called Kickass,
which is a sort of an off, an off brand,
and it's still very grounded.
It's funny, they get toexplore more character stuff
as opposed to like indulgingthe, the action of it.
Um, so yeah, I think that youcan even start to pick out

(39:16):
the beginnings of the response.
Now, again, what I thinkhappened with punk,
what I think happened withgrunge, what I think happened
with the stripped down sounds of sort
of folk rock in the early two thousands.
Um, I, I think that's,that's what we're going
to start seeing, uh, in,in the comic book world.
Now, as for comic booksthemselves, um, hard to say,
comics are a physical media, um, very,

(39:39):
very hard to sell those to people.
I think, uh, the comic industryis slowly, they're a giant
of, uh, sort of this, thiscolossus now, um, trying
to adopt this new, new technology.
So I think you'll get morelike online comic books,
but I do think that comic mediahas a real opportunity to,
to, to take advantage ofthe current situation.
And I don't think the window'sgonna be open for very long.

(40:00):
- Well, I think there's, youknow, I, I agree with you.
I mean, I, you know, I've beena fan of web comics since,
you know, I was in college 20 years ago,
and there are some that have maintained
and others that have fallen apart,
and, you know, many in between.
I'll call out specifically
because I, I try to do thisevery opportunity I can.
If Brendan Lee Mulligan is ever listening,
I'd really love for you to finish strong.
Uh, strong female protagonist,which was a web comic.

(40:20):
He started before dropoutturned into a thing.
Um, it's never gonnahappen, but a man can dream.
Um, but I do
wonder if there was somegroundwork laid by others
that the comic bookindustry is now finally
going to start to utilize.
Um, interestingly though, I, you know, I,
I was a comicology reader for a long time.

(40:41):
Uh, reading on a Kindle,reading on an iPad doesn't have
that same feel.
There is something abouta physical comic book.
There is something about, andin the same way that like,
there's some people who willall still go to a Barnes
and Noble and pick up theirfavorite book versus I'm
perfectly happy to grab it on a Kindle
'cause it, it doesn't have
that much emotional meaningto me for most books.
There is that sort of distinction. Right.

(41:02):
Do you find, again, as a, asa, I can see it in your view,
right, as an actual comicscollector, um, do you feel
that there will alwaysbe the printed version?
Or do you think thateventually the industry's
going to have to go full digital?
- I think, I think physicalmedia will always have a place.
I mean, think, think of, think of records.
- There was a, there was a,there was a, there was a,
a preface there, I should have said,

(41:23):
which is my theory is Uhhuh .
I think the, I think the bookindustry will eventually go
fully digital because it will be hard
to sustain the marginsof physical printing.
And I guess I'm asking if comicbooks might go the same way.
- I can't imagine comicsbeing totally digital.
I mean, that's, that mightbe a, a failure of my own.
I mean, yes, I can imagine it.
I mean, yes, anything can be digital.

(41:44):
I think that there issomething about going
to a comic book store andgrabbing a comic book, um,
and holding it in your hands
and showing it, handingit off to a friend.
That is so intrinsic tothe, to comic collecting.
Comic collecting is more, comic reading
is more than just reading.
It's sharing. I feel likenow I am, I am predisposed
to believe that because I'm anextrovert, I love community.

(42:04):
Um, that's my, my entire career.
It's, I mean, I, I didthat because I'm good at it
and I, I find value in it.
So I'm not, I don't know.
Um, I, I think again, we cansort of look at comps, right?
For me, music is always a good comp
because I know a lot about musicas well as, um, uh, comics.
And I think that thereis not really a going
to a concert version for comics, right?
Maybe a comic con, maybethat would be close.

(42:27):
Um, and the Comic-Con, theysell stuff and you walk away
and you have, you get to show stuff off.
I think it is a tactile, I thinkit is a tactile, um, hobby.
Uh, I think it can be nontactile digital, of course.
I, I have a giant, I have agarage full of comic books.
I can't take them with me on an airplane,
so I also have a Kindle as well.
I think, I think thatwill compliment that.
But Will, will it ever be totally digital?

(42:48):
The answer is probably somedaywhen we run outta trees.
Uh, or, or, or the ability to
- Recycle, which is abigger problem anyway. Yeah.
- Right, right. It's awhole different thing.
But like records, right?
Music's been around for a long time.
People have been collectingrecords since the phonograph.
They're still out. They're, they're making
to come back. And you see Resurgences,
- That's a perfect counterpoint.
And I actually had not considered that.
Um, you know, the vinyl resurgence.

(43:09):
I, the, you go to the Barnes
and Noble here in, in, in LA near me,
there is now a massivedisplay of every modern album
and everything basically that's been
released in the last 30 years.
It's all vinyl now. Right.
And, and I don't, I, I don't know
how many people have a vinyl player,
but I think it's interestingthat we're finding
as things get more homogenized, there is
that push towardsphysical media for music.

(43:29):
Perhaps there is a, aversion of it for books
and comic books I hadn't considered.
That's a, I like that. That's fair. Well,
- I think like all media is,movies are a little different.
'cause movies have never beensomething you can really hold.
But, um, I mean, well, film,
film holding film is notexperiencing a movie.
And I think that's the,the vital difference. Sure.
- Yeah.- So like, if, even if you're talking,

(43:50):
you're like talking likea canister or filmy,
- Right?
You can hold a copy of, youcan hold a copy of dogma on DVD
and it's not the same thingas sitting down in a theater
or with your friends ona TV and experiencing it.
Right? I I, I'm with you there. Well,
- So, but think about,think about other forms
of physical media that have persisted
for millennia paintings, right?
Um, visual art, uh, whatdo you have behind you?

(44:12):
- Uh, this is a print, this is,
I'm technically in my wife's office.
Um, but that is a, a printfrom, uh, an astrological, uh,
or excuse me, a tarot deck,
I believe from her that she Cool. Yeah.
- But that's on a screen. Is it? Let
- Me, no, it's not a screen.
No, it's, it's a framed,
it's a framed poster.You're absolutely right.
- And, um, how long are framedposters been around? Right?

(44:33):
How long have, like, have webeen hanging art on walls?
So that's, I think that ifyou really want to, I, I think
that's, I mean, you canjust, if you, if you look
for it now, that mightbe confirmation bias,
but I also think it, it holds up.
- Alright. SmartyAnts fine. Whatever.
I'm wrong. I get it. Uh,
- Oh.
I did, did you have the opposite opinion?
- No, no, I'm just wrong. That's fine.
Um, I, uh, I just, you know,

(44:53):
again, we're being
vulnerable here. Right?I can call that when
- I'm wrong.
I tended that you werewrong, but yeah. Okay.
- I, well, maybe I'm not okay.
Now I'm wrong about beingwrong anyway. Oh, man.
- All right.- I love all of this.
And, and, and, you know, look, I, I, you
and I have known eachother long enough that I,
I have am humbled by yourexpertise when it comes
to comic books, media at large.
It, it certainly dwarfs my own,
but I think the one thingI wanna call out here,

(45:14):
and maybe there is a potential individual
who might wanna bring youin for your unique skillset.
Uh, you are not, of course, limited
to comic books and media.
You've worked in a number of
different companies, including Stripe.
Um, I mentioned earlieryou worked for a number
of different, uh, organizationswhen you were at Sutherland
Gold, when you and I met some time ago,
you know, how to launch startups.
Is there a particular direction you're
hoping to go with your next role?

(45:34):
Is there something thatyou feel really strongly
that you wanna bring to thetable that maybe is unique
to your various, youknow, previous companies I
- Enjoy working on, and I,
and I think I'm lucky enoughto be in a position to do this.
Um, I, I enjoy working onthings that I, that I love.
So that's one big thing.
So comics, there's a reason I did that.
I'd love to go work, um, at a company

(45:55):
that has something to do with music.
Um, I like, I like cultureand I like pop culture,
and I like, I like stuffthat reaches people.
That's one thing I love. Now,this is another, another thing
that I love is being on thecutting edge of something.
Um, there's, that's the dual,
that's the kind of my two sides.
And so, um,
being the best at somethingin a cutting edge field is,

(46:16):
is a high that I'm chasing,I guess I would say.
Yeah. It's a chef's kiss.That's, that's right.
I think it's a chef's kiss.So like, for example, one
of the great thingsabout working at Twilio,
which is not a pop culture company,
and it wasn't when I joined, is
that they were doing something new
and they were the best at it.
And I really, uh,
this is gonna soundbandwagoning or something.
I like being on a winning team
and I like contributing to a winning team.
So that's, I've got a verycompetitive side that, that will,

(46:37):
if something is new, cutting edge
and killing it in the field,I want to be there too.
I wanna help. I wanna learnfrom it and I wanna add to it.
And that's one side. The otherside is, gosh, I would love
to work at iHeartRadio, Spotify, Pandora,
you know, music stuff.
I just love it so much. Um,
working in in in film wouldbe great, working at Netflix,

(46:58):
not because it's a greatsuccessful company,
but I love, you know, I lovebeing able to work with stuff
that, that, that touches people, right?
There's STEM who works on stuffthat people need to survive.
And then there's like the, the arts
and sciences version of me thatmake, yeah, you can survive,
but it's all, you also have tomake it worth it to be alive.
And I like to work and I liketo work on that stuff too.

(47:19):
And I think that's culture related.
So, uh, that's what I wantto be doing in a field.
But my actual position,I really like strategy
and I like talking to people.
I really like talking to people.
I like being, I like beinghands-on with the community.
Um, uh, I, that, that's
what motivates me toget up in the morning.
I'm a comedian outside of work.
I also write web comics,so I do like to, um, uh,

(47:40):
you know, I like to create as well.
I'm very creative. So anythingwhere I can be creative, work
with, work with people, andhelp with help contribute to a
strategy is, is my bread
and butter, and that's what I wanna do.
- I, I will also callout that, uh, you, um,
I've seen you performin your comedy group,
and it is legitimately funny, , uh,
and I, I, I've got a highthreshold for comedy.
I, I don't suffer comedic fools.

(48:00):
Um, I, I suffer funnyfools, but yeah. Um, okay.
I want to end on a littlebit of selfishness if I may,
if you're, if you'rewilling to go down this road
with me, I've got a podcast.
You have led communitiesat many different places,
but everybody in theirmother has a podcast now,

(48:21):
and everybody in their motherwants to be that Joe Rogan get
to the top of the ladder,kind of an approach.
I don't know that, that's notnecessarily what I'm going
for, but I'm, I'm really excited at some
of the feedback I getaround people who listen
to the podcast, who giveme, you know, thoughts
and questions and reviews,
and I want to capture more of that.
I could do a newsletter,I could build a discord,

(48:41):
I could build a Facebook group,
but I gotta be honest with you,I don't know that I'm called
to do any of that specifically.
Maybe there's some goodreasons for seeding SEO
or LLMs these days as the case may be.
So maybe it's worthwhilebuilding a transcript
of everything, but I don't knowhow to actually, I dunno how
to gather everybody in one spot
and talk about the things that
we might all want to talk about.
Do you have any thoughts? Do you have any,

(49:02):
any professional adviceI should take home?
- I think what's the goal?
Do you want to be reaching more people?
Do you wanna be creatinghigher quality content?
What's, what, what do you see as success?
- Great questions. Uh, I thinkdefinitely both of those.
I want to, I wanna expand my audience.
I'm not interested inmonetization necessarily,
although I'm not opposed toit, it's not my main goal.

(49:23):
Um, it has been a greatprofessional development tool
for me, and I'd love tocontinue to build on that.
And I would love
to get feedback on improvingthe technical quality as well
as the narrative quality of the podcasts.
And I think there's a, a goodimprovement that you can see
between the beginning of this year
and now in terms of both ofthose, those, uh, factors.

(49:44):
Um, but I think I'm gettingto a point where I need
outside people telling me more what works
and what doesn't for me to make
intelligent decisions aboutwhat's important to me to, to,
to focus on, on a production side.
So, I don't know, does any ofthat help you sort of think
through how I might proceed?
- Well, it seems likethere's two goals here.
It's how can I reach more people
and how can I be better at what I do?

(50:05):
Um, it feels like that was, if I were
to reduce what you said to that.
So I think, um, with regardsto creating, I'm a creator
as well, so I, I sympathize
and, uh, empathize with you here.
Uh, I think the best thingyou can do is consume and ask,
and I don't know if it getsmore complicated than that.
Like, if you wanna be abetter writer, the trick
that every great writer has said,
even bad writers know,um, is you gotta read.

(50:27):
So keep consuming content,make sure you know
what looks good, whatworks, what doesn't work.
You have a critical eyefor it. I know you do.
Uh, and, and you are,
and one, I already think you,
you're already doing good work.
You're doing a, you're,it's professional quality.
So if, if you're stilllooking at getting better,
then I think it's more than just looking
good and that kind of thing.
It's, uh, perhaps what, youknow, what makes a show unique.

(50:49):
You know, go look at the biggest podcast,
even if you don't like whatthey're about or whatever.
Um, they have something going on
and it might not just bethe size of the community.
Now one, I think the goodthing about getting better at
that consuming, iterating,asking professionals is, um,
the quality, uh, will help grow your,
grow your, uh, your fan base.
You know, they all work in concert.
Your fan base, I called it.

(51:09):
Um, your, your community,
your usage, your listeners,that's what it's called.
Listenership, uh, I wastrying to find the right word.
Um, your listenership I thinkwill improve with quality
because people will stick aroundand they'll talk about it.
And, and so there's different,there's like a retention,
uh, aspect to this.
And also sort of a word
of mouth thing now to reach more people.
You, well, one, to reach more people
and to capture more people are,

(51:29):
are kind of also different goals.
Reaching people is simply,you know, getting in people's,
uh, feeds and so that they see you.
Um, I think that, uh, I think that
what we were talking aboutearlier in regards to framework,
I started thinking about how am I going
to better people's lives?
Am I informing them, educating them,
entertaining them, right?
Um, connecting with people.
So I think that you'realready on the right path.

(51:51):
You, you're interviewingpeople who are interesting,
who have something toshare, who can help others
do whatever they're going to do.
I think that's reallyimportant. I think you gotta,
I think you've just gotta stick with it.
Sometimes it take me take it takes time.
And I think if you want tocontinue to stay on top of, uh,
top of mind, um, I don'tknow if I have any advice
that you haven't already said.
I think it just re I think itjust requires you to do it.

(52:12):
Um, make a substack,
ask people for what, you know what I mean?
Like, if I start a newsletter,like, um, you, you, one
of the nice thing about havingthis much content is, uh,
you can have it transcribedand you can repurpose it.
And I don't think it's, you have
to always start carte blanchewith, uh, your content.
So maybe that's better. ButI do think it's gonna take
work if that's what you want.

(52:32):
- Ugh, work- . Do, you know, I think you get,
I don't think I'mtelling you anything new.
I, I think it, I thinksometimes the answer is,
Hey, you've got a good thing.
You just have to do more of it.
- Yeah. Well, it's very generous of you.
I, um, you know, I'm,
I'm always looking to ask the question.
'cause I think it's importantfor me to, to, you know,
again, we were talking earlierabout the, the importance

(52:54):
of vulnerability as it pertainsto building something and,
and, you know, uh, I gotta be able
to ask the question and take the feedback.
So I appreciate that. Um, well,
- Jason, I mean, the nicething is, yeah, you've got a,
you've got a great professional network.
I mean, the, the, you've alreadygot highly qualified leads
when you, this, this is so marketing now.
I guess that's what you asked for. Um,
I felt ridiculous about it,

(53:15):
- But it's, he's figured itout, folks. , he knows what I'm
- Doing.
Uh, but I, you've gotta,
you've got highly qualifiedleads in your network.
I think the people you wanna reach are,
you've already built out thesocial network for yourself.
I think a lot of the work that you think
you have to do, you've already done.
And also I think that I isprobably not what you wanna hear
because, uh, that insinuates that,
you know, where do I go from here?
Um, but, uh, or something like that.

(53:36):
But again, uh, capturing them
and staying top of mindis gonna have to take a,
an iteration process quicker
and with a higher cadencethan podcast release episodes.
Right? Like, how long would we, you know,
how many episodes do you have coming out?
Right?
- Uh, I mean, I, I, yeah, Imean, I put them out every week.
Uh, I aim for, you know,
I've got a few in the can right now.

(53:56):
Um, you know, it's, it's,uh, there's also a lot
of stuff going on at home, soit's hard when you're a one
man band to stay consistent with it.
Um, but I get what you'regetting at, which is that,
that the, the, the core hereis keep doing the thing.
Um, once you built theright foundation as, uh,
you've generously suggested Ihave, then just keep doing it
and, and it will iterate over time.

(54:17):
Um, I'm gonna pull back the curtain here
and go, well that was really nice for me.
The point of that was
to also show prospective future employers
how you think analytically
and how you give adviceand how you coach people.
And hey, now we've got agreat little clip to end on
that you can reproduceon your LinkedIn page
for future generations
- To come.
Now I've got constant to repurpose.
Well, I'll also say justgenerally now, if that's the case,

(54:38):
there are trends that you can follow.
If you really wanted towork hard at creating con,
if you wanted to make shortform content, put it on TikTok,
or if you wanted to put on,you know, YouTube shorts
and develop a sort of YouTube SEO,
which is the second largestsearch network in the world.
Those are actual tacticalthings that you can do.
But the strategy producinghigh quality content
that will help people,you're already doing it.

(55:00):
- I appreciate it. Alright,
my friend, it has been a pleasure.
Thank you so much for joining.If folks do wanna reach out
to you, if they wanna engage
or maybe they wanna follow you on LinkedIn
and see how the adventure goes from here,
what's the right placeyou wanna send them to?
- Well, if you wanna, ifyou are interested in the,
the professional aspect ofwhat we talked about today,
Ryan Crowe at LinkedIn, you can follow me.
I, uh, I, as I mentioned on my post,

(55:21):
I have a pretty Spartan uh,uh, existence on LinkedIn.
But I do post things,uh, that I find helpful.
I, I do post community forward,uh, uh, uh, my approach to,
to, to my community marketing programs
and marketing in general, uh,
and sort of my thoughts on that
that I think are a little different than
what other people do becauseit's not aspirational.
I intend to include what my logic is

(55:42):
and takeaways in every post,just so you're not walking away
with something you canforget if you, if that's
what would happen because you hear
so many stories on LinkedIn,I think that it's easy
to just file 'em away.
So Ryan Crowe on LinkedIn,um, I look like this.
That's my profile picture.
And if you are interested in some
that are more creative endeavors,
if you wanna follow me on Instagram at Dr.

(56:03):
Crow, spelled out, D-O-C-T-R-C-O-W-E, um,
that's where I would follow me.
- Awesome. Well, Ryan, thank you so much.
It's a pleasure as always. I hope we,
I hope we have you backon soon with an update
- Whenever you want.
- I appreciate it.