The Value of Hard Work [Jacklyn Dallas]

"Working hard and being kind is a great legacy to leave behind. Hopefully, it would be like always showing up and trying to be a really good person and making people feel better, like at the end of the interaction that they felt at the beginning."

Since starting her YouTube career at the age of 13, Jacklyn Dallas has amassed a sizable audience across multiple social media platforms. That, by itself, would be interesting enough; but when you look closer at her work ethic, her ability to move past projects that don't work, and her incredible positive attitude, you come to understand that the success she's experiencing isn't luck or timing. It's perseverance.

Less an interview and more a conversation, my chat with Jacklyn revealed a great deal about her approach to work (if it's not fun, why do it?), her shift towards interviews (including her recent interview with Google CEO Sundar Pichai), and what she'd want to be remembered for through her work.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
- Because I think as acreator, like the number
one asset you have is trust.
So like every creator probablysays no to like hundreds
of thousands of dollars of deals.
And then they say yes to theones that actually make sense.
- It was the moonshot factory trying
to make the next Instagram
- Tech in the real world, Ithink is the bread and butter,
because I think everyone makes reviews
as tech becomes more iterative.
The most exciting thingis seeing it out and about
and how it actually impacts your life
- Niche is important, butthe other actually is maybe

(00:21):
spending some more time in the edit
and making the front end ofthe episode really compelling
by finding those sort
of juicy bits and putting them up front.
- I there, uh, there's atellers swift quote that I like.
Um, working hard
and being kind is a greatlegacy to leave behind.
Hopefully it would belike always showing up
and trying to be a really good person
and making people feelbetter, like at the end
of interaction they felt at the beginning.

(00:41):
- The, the thread I'm hearingfor a lot of people is want it
to check my work and I wantit to offer suggestions,
but I wanna stay the ownerof the final decisions
and I wanna stay the ownerof the creative direction.
Hello friends. Welcome toBuilding Value. I'm Jason Nellis.
She goes by the handle, nothing but tech,
but I'd say that she's actuallyanything but unprofessional.
Let's talk about my guest for today.

(01:03):
Jacklyn Dallas, definitelythe youngest person I've
interviewed, but certainly one
of the most accomplished as well.
Jacqueline is a technologyYouTube content creator
who does day in the lifetechnology reviews, as well
as interviews c-suite leadersall across the tech space.
She started her YouTubechannel at the age of 13
and has since amassed more than250,000 combined subscribers

(01:25):
across all her social media.
One of the things I lovedabout today's interview is it
really felt more like aconversation with an old friend.
And I think once you've watchedand listened, you'll agree.
We talked about her approachto her creative work,
why she gave up a fairlyhealthy podcast audience,
and why she's shifted more ofher content towards interviews
and a little bit away from reviews.
This is Jacklyn Dallas,

(01:47):
and here we are today with Jacqueline.
Jacqueline, how are you today? Good.
- Thank you so much forhaving me. So excited.
- My thank you for being here.
There's so much I wanna tackle today,
but you know, one of the firstthings I wanna jump into you
are by far the youngest person
I've interviewed on the podcast.
And when we started workingtogether seven years ago now,
you were, I think still in high school.
You might have just startedhigh school given where your,

(02:07):
you, uh, content had been.
I I think by far you're probably one
of the youngest people I've ever
had the chance to work with.
How is it that you decidedat such a young age, not only
to start on YouTube, whichI think is probably a fairly
common thing for young folks,um, God, I sound old asking
that question, but specifically, oh no, I'm ancient,
but specifically your,

(02:28):
your professionalismfrom the very beginning
seemed really well defined.
What inspired you and what helped you sort
of build those sea legs really quickly?
- Yeah, thank you, first of all.
Um, yeah, I think about that a lot
because I feel like bythe time I was like 14
or 15, I was going tonetworking parties a lot.
Um, and now I'm 22

(02:48):
and a lot of my closestfriends are like in their
late twenties or early thirties.
Well, also friends withpeople that are like 22.
But I've always been friendswith people much older as well.
Um, and I think that'sbeen really good for me
because a, I thinkthat's good for everyone,
like being friends withpeople of different ages, um,
like within reason Ithink it's really good
because you can learn likedifferent worlds feel
- Like I have to, that youdon't wanna be creepy about
it. I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(03:09):
- Um, like I don't want someone being
friends with like an8-year-old or something.
Um, but yeah, I think super helpful
and also in general, likeeven when I was a kid,
I would always kinda like hang out
with my friend's parents too.
And like at like my, one
of my best friends inmiddle school, her mom used
to edit montages in Final Cut,
and that was actually like myfirst exposure to Final Cut.
Um, and like I would, everyonewould be like playing outside

(03:30):
and I'd be like, and sittingnext to her, like learning how
to edit certain things in Final Cut.
Um, and she like taught me a lot.
Uh, so yeah, I've always likeliked older people as well
as younger people and I think it's kind
of always like pulled meforward in life stage.
Like when I was like 13 or 14
or 15, I was already kind ofworking full time with school.
Um, and I think that like,that builds a lot of like
discipline and like resiliencyand I think there are pros

(03:53):
and cons obviously, but Iwould do it every single time.
Um, and now like a lot
of my friends are olderin their career in life,
and I think it just like makes you,
I guess realize like the things
that are actually importantyou should care about versus
like, I think there's, thisis like an unpopular take,
but I think sometimes peoplelike throw away their twenties
because a lot of like societytells you like to do things
that are like, you're only young once.

(04:13):
And like, yes, I think that's true,
but I also think that theseare the fundamental years
to do things that kind of set you up
for the like long-termgoals that you have.
- I love that. I, I absolutely agree and,
and I think there'sprobably a balance you can,
I think you don't wanna throwaway your twenties so much
as like, don't worry aboutthe consequences quite as much
as you have to when you're, uh, you know,
an octogenarian like me.

(04:34):
Um, okay, I'm not actuallyin my eighties, um, ,
but still, uh, you know,most younger creators,
particularly these days arefinding themselves attracted to
more sort of meme centric stuff.
It's a lot of dance, it's alot of music, uh, you know,
women in in beauty
and makeup, you know, isis a much larger category,
women in tech, much smaller.

(04:56):
Do you find that that's a,a ceiling you have to break
through more than once?
Is that something thatyou're just constantly,
you know, pushing against?
Or do you find a lot ofsupport in the community?
- One of the coolest thingsever, this is like real,
I promise we'll circle back.
Um, women's basketball thisyear was much more popular, um,
than the men's basketball this year.
I think both are amazing.Hell, I watch both. Hell yeah.
Um, but it was so exciting to see

(05:16):
because I feel like I playedbasketball growing up.
Um, obviously not at that level,
but I played like competitivelyin like an AAU programs
and stuff and I feel like thecommon sentiment was like you
could become like the bestbasketball player in the world,
but like it's ultimately notgonna really matter that much.
Like, because you're not playinglike on a men's basketball
team, like the career trajectoryis just like not the same.
Um, you can like stillplay for fun or whatever,
but like people are just not as

(05:36):
interested in women's sports.
It's kind of what I heardall the time growing up.
So I think it's so excitingthat right now we're in a moment
where women's basketballis kind of taken over
and I think it's becauseof TikTok, honestly.
I think there are myriadfactors, like some
of the players are incredible, um,
but there have beenincredible players in the past
and so I think the TikTokedits have really helped
because, um,
Jules Herbeck actually madelike a whole video essay on this

(05:57):
if anyone wants to check it out.
But basically it's all about
how like the TikTok editors arekind of like tastemakers now
and no one knows their name,
but like they're editingthese compilations
that then get like 10 or20 or 30 million views
and so they expose a whole new audience
to this type of content.
Um, so that's really exciting to me.
I think like, yes, the glos ceiling thing,
I've also been super like blessed
and privileged that everysingle person I've met in my

(06:19):
career has been amazing and supportive
that I haven't really felt it necessarily.
Um, I think about it a lot too
because YouTube is likethe most democratized
media that we've ever had.
And so the barrier toentry is like you hit
upload and everyone starts at zero.
And so then it's fascinating.
There's still are notthat many female creators.
And so I think it starts likeearlier of like being exposed

(06:40):
to the fact that it's a career option
or like, um, I thinkagain, like growing up,
like it was not consideredlike the coolest thing
to be into tech if you were a girl.
I think if we like changed that narrative
then we'll probably getmore people into tech.
Um, but ultimately I thinkit's like the best time
to ever be, wanna be a creator.
Like the opportunities aremore than they've ever been.
- That's amazing. I, Ithink too, you know, one
of the things you touchedon that, that I want

(07:00):
to circle back to is,you know, it wasn't cool
to be a woman in tech.
Tech is such a different space now, right?
I mean everything is is techfor better or for worse, right?
So there's, I I wonder if perhaps as,
as things have developed
and as the, the, um, thatcategory has expanded into
so many different directions,what used to be sort
of thought of as like, nerdy dudes
who look like me sittingin a basement sort

(07:22):
of tinkering away at a motherboard
has really now grown into, I
- Dunno, dude, you give tech a good image.
- Well that's, I'm writing that down
and putting it on a shirt.
Thank you very much. .
But no, I mean like, like,you know, nowadays tech is
so ubiquitous, right?
When we talk about tech,we're not just talking about,
you know, computers anduh, um, you know, gaming
and any of that kind ofmore narrow approach.

(07:42):
I mean, tech is in such a,
a ubiquitous infiltratingeverything, right?
So I, I think it's interesting to me that,
that you've actuallysort of ridden such a,
a phenomenal creative waveof what used to be thought of
as a very male-centric space.
Maybe now it's much more ubiquitous
and I've used ubiquitous like 19 times.
Did I use that in scraptoday? It's the perfect
- Word.

(08:02):
I feel like. Okay, no,
it it definitely can defines it
because I think you're right.
Like and also the coolest jobs now
that people want are often in tech.
Like people really wannawork at Google or Apple
or Meta, um, and liketech is in health now.
So it's like if you'rereally into fitness,
suddenly you're wearingan aura ring or a whoop
and you're like cold plunging
and you're tracking likein every area of life,
tech is been the thing. Um, which

(08:25):
- I think, yeah, but if I haveto hear one more person, talk
to me about cold plungingas like the new hotness
- Dude, have you ever done it? Have
- You done it?
No. Why would I eversubject myself to negative
- Whatever.
It's the best thing ever., I'm a fan. This is gonna,
- My shower is less than 190 degrees.
If it's not almost boiling,it may as well be ice cubes.
I'm sorry, I can't doit. It's not interesting.
- Not gonna happen. I wasyou like two years ago

(08:46):
and I was like, these people are dumb.
Like why are they cold plunging?
Like this is so extra of them.
And then I started doing it
and I've kind of come around
and I think it's amazing. Um, but
- For what benefit?
I mean aside, I get thatlike it wakes you up,
but like, is it really helpingwith the things it says,
you know, is it reallymaking fat loss easier
and is it really helping likeboost your energy throughout
the day or are we all just like agreeing

(09:08):
to the same pretend fantasy?
- A hundred percent? Itcould be that. I think it
builds discipline.
Like I think that that'sactually the, so there's a part
of your brain, um, AndrewCooperman has talked about this,
he's like a health podcaster,um, where it's like,
- Yes, he's been in the newsrecently, unfortunately. I
- Know, I know.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of thoughts on that.
But the part of your brain,um, that like builds willpower,

(09:30):
basically, if you enjoy doing,
let's say you do something really hard,
but you enjoy it, it doesn't grow as much
as if you hate doing the thingand then you push through
and do it, that actually likestrengthens your willpower.
And so like, I really like working out, so
that would probably strengthenmy willpower a little bit
less because it's like lessof an ask to get myself
to do it, but like taking afreezing shower the second I
wake up, not something I really wanna do.
So every day it's kind

(09:51):
of a practice in likebuilding the discipline.
- Yeah. You're not gonna convince me
to take the cold showers, but I do hear you
and I appreciate that.
Perhaps there is now something
to think about there. Uh, maybe
- I'll, what, what happens do you think
that like add discipline to your life?
Like what's something that sucks
that you do every single day?
- That's a great question.Uh, I want to be snarky
and say something about work,

(10:11):
but that's not, not actually the case.
No, I, you know, and I strugglewith working out. I do.
I've never been somebody who'sbeen super attracted to, uh,
uh, working out athletics.
I've been, I was a nerdy bookie, you know,
theater kid back in the day.
Um, I could get awaywith that for many years.
I was also just like naturally skinny,
not really the case anymore.
Unfortunately. I've got,I've gone from dad bod

(10:32):
to full father figure at this point.
So, um, it is difficult, I think,
to get myself sometimesmotivated to go and work out.
I do hear what you're sayingthough, that as I continue
to work out and as I see progress
and as I feel my own, um,uh, uh, infrastructure,
let's call it, you know, my own body sort
of start to, to respond.

(10:53):
There is something alittle bit more pleasurable
than things I'm good at.
Like talking to people whereI'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
this is great, but I II know I can do that.
Well, I I see thatbalance. I understand that.
- Yeah. I think about,um, like everyone is kind
of predisposed to beingbetter at certain things.
Like I feel like most skillsin life are pretty learnable
and you just have tolike, put in the reps.
Like, um, Alex

(11:13):
or Moey talks a lot aboutignorance, debt, which is like,
you can have anything youwant, but you just have
to pay down the ignorance, debt
of like things that youdon't know to have it.
Um, and more and more inmy life I've noticed that
because there's certain things
that I truly like will belike, God, like they're just
so good and natural, whatever,
and then you realize thatthey've just put in a
thousand x more reps than you.
Um, and probably similarfor working out, like one
of my best friends has wokenup at 5:00 AM every single

(11:36):
morning for the lastdecade to go to the gym.
So he's gonna be likea lot more disciplined
and on it at the gym thansomeone that's just started. No,
- I, I tried 5:00 AM for aboutthree weeks at Pass .
Um, I, I wanna shiftgears a little bit here
because one of the thingsthat I noticed in doing my
research and sort of gettingback into the full depth
of your content, you'restill doing reviews.

(11:57):
That's still, I think,an important part of
what content you are creating,
but I've seen a strategicshift where you're starting
to interview folks more frequently.
Um, and, and these are not, you know,
you're not just talkingto like the, the PM
for Microsoft Teams who does chat.
You're talking to the c-suiteat Microsoft, you're talking
to the c-suite at Google and YouTube

(12:17):
and folks of that nature.
Um, talk me through whyyou're making that shift
and what kind of upside you've seen in,
in moving you in that direction.
- Yeah, thank you. Um,
a hundred percent reviews arelike the bread and butter.
Um, and honestly even more than that,
just like tech in the realworld I think is the bread
and butter because I thinkeveryone makes reviews.

(12:37):
And so I think our uniquedifferentiator is that
as tech becomes more iterative,
the most exciting thingis seeing it out and about
and how it actually impacts your life.
So the first change thatI made is around a year
and a half ago, switching tothese like day in life reviews.
But I also think, going back
to our earlier point abouttech being in everyone's life,
it's much more accessible if it's not like
specs top down studio.
But instead it's like I'm at a coffee shop

(12:58):
and like now I'm about to go for a run
and here's how I zonetrack on my Apple watch.
Like that feels like my bestfriend who's not at the tech
can like it, but thenlike the tech enthusiast
that I'm making it for can also like it.
Um, so I shift number one
and I think I also still figuring it out.
Like I still feel likewe're very early stage of
what are the topics that are going
to be like appealing to a million people.
Um, and I think that it hasto be beyond just a review

(13:20):
because if you make likean incredible review,
but like 30 other peoplealso make the review,
inherently it's not as unique
as if you make a videothat no one else has made.
Like recently I tested outevery single Apple Vision Pro
app and no one else did that.
So like, that's a muchmore unique video than like
an Apple Vision Pro review.
Um, so that's part one.
- I was just gonna askthough, doesn't spending
that much time on the Vision Pro make you

(13:40):
nauseous? I feel like
- That's one of my, yeah.
Oh dude, it was like one ofthe worst weeks. Um, okay.
It was really fun but also miserable.
Like I, I think it was took 50 hours,
like I was working tilllike two or 3:00 AM
'cause I also did it in additionto like a normal work week.
So it was like 50 hour,
it was basically like twowork weeks in one week.
Um, and I weirdly had thestomach fires also that week,
so I was already nauseated. Okay. Um,

(14:02):
- Nothing about about this is, is healthy.
Nothing about this, youknow, I'm sure. Sorry.
My, and, and for thoseof you watching on video,
my hair is doing itsown thing today. Um, oh
- Yeah, dude, my- Have,
I mean, do you have tolike take Dramamine?
I mean at, at a certain point
- Spending this time I was dying.
Okay. Yeah dude, there was like a point
where it was like 11:00PM and like I went,
had been in the Vision Pro for like hours
and I was like, oh my God,like what did I commit to?
But it's kind of like themoment in like a really hard

(14:24):
workout where it's like, it sucks so much,
but then if you just like stickthrough it, then at the end
of the workout you're like,bro, like I feel good now.
So that was kind of like the moment,
like I remember like whenI had like five apps left
'cause it's 600 andlike, I think it was 614,
so when I had like fiveleft, I was like, alright,
I think we're actually able to do it.
Like, let's go. Um,
and I think like a lot
of things in life are justbuilding the resume for yourself

(14:45):
of doing hard stuff that then, you know,
when the next hard thingcomes, you can do it.
Um, and it was also fun,honestly, like I learned
so much about the Vision Pro
and I have so much respect for developers
that make the applications.
Um, so that was one video,
but to go on the interview note, um,
I just love talking to people.
And so when I was likegrowing up in school,
my teachers used toalways call me Jacqueline.
I have two questionsbecause I would always ask

(15:07):
like so many different things.
Um, certain classes I had like quotas
of like, you cannot ask more than this.
Because I was just like,I feel like the way
that I learned is just asking a lot
of stuff and I was always curious.
Um, and so
that was kinda like a natural
thread line throughout my whole life.
And then, um, like two yearsago, Google reached out
and they were like, sooner is going to do
three creator interviews.

(15:28):
And like, we wanna elevateYouTube as a platform.
Like we don't wanna, we'renot gonna do social media,
we're just gonna have threecreators come to the interview.
Would you want be one of them? Um,
and I'd never interviewed anyone before.
I think I was like 19 or 20 maybe.
Um, and I think like I knewit was a really big deal
and an honor, but I didn't realize
like how high stakes it was.
Um, so I just went and I did it.
It was so much fun andreally, really energizing
and I think it like resonatedwell with the audience too.

(15:49):
It's definitely like the mostpopular video on the channel.
- Um, I was gonna say it, it is, it,
it outpaces it's almost three x your
most popular other video.
I mean that's a huge, which I think is
- In huge part 'cause of Sundar.
Like he's amazing andpeople love him. Yeah.
- But, but, but nobody would watch
that video if you hadn't alsoprovided something compelling
and interesting for him to bounce against.
Right. So I think there'ssomething there to be said

(16:10):
of responding to Positive Signal
and really taking what makes good content
that you can uniquely makeand doing more with it.
- A hundred percent. Yeah. And um,
like there were other interviewswith him at the same time
that I think got lessof like the viewership.
So I thought there was likesomething special there.
Um, and like the comment, like I,
I really very like pay attention a lot to
what the NBT like community says.

(16:32):
Like people that watch the videos, um,
like I have notifications on
for every single comment and I read them.
Um, and that video justhad like a lot of comments
around like the interview style.
Um, so it was one of the factors.
And then the other one is thatI just don't see it happening
a lot in tech and goingback to like the point
of like unique content, um, it's something
that I would wanna watch,but I don't see it happening.
So that for this yearis definitely the goal.
We have some really funCEO interviews lined up.

(16:53):
Um, the next one that'scoming out is the CEO
of Humane, which would be really cool.
She was awesome. Um, andthen, yeah, it's been great.
So I, I definitely, Ithink like the thesis
of the channel is like, um,
reviewing products in the real world
and then interviewingthe CEOs that make them
still early stage.
But I think that that's kind of the way
to merge the twodifferent content buckets.

(17:13):
- You mentioned the NBT community.
Tell me how you thinkabout your community.
How do you encapsulate them? Right?
I mean, just from the get go,like how, if I said I want you
to send the bat signal to your community,
is it just on YouTube
or do you host other things
that let them connect with each other?
- , I love that. Um, yeah,
it's YouTube, Twitter and Instagram.
Those are like the main three. Um,
I post a lot on all three of them.

(17:34):
I kind of use 'em all as like different.
YouTube is like, I love YouTube.It's my favorite platform.
Um, and that's where likemost of the audience is.
Um, Twitter is great for meeting people.
Um, like I've met some ofmy best friends on Twitter
and I've also met a lot of like the people
that I've interviewed or worked with.
Um, my amazing thumbnail designer.
A lot of like, um, people on the team,
like just tons of people on Twitter.

(17:54):
I think it's a greatplatform. I think Tech,
YouTube on Twitter isparticularly very wholesome.
I know a lot of people likedon't like Twitter anymore.
I've not had that experience
'cause like tech, YouTube is just so pure.
Um, so on Twitter I'llpost like behind the scenes
of the videos, um, differentlike tech analysis, kind
of similar stuff that I do to YouTube,
but maybe a little bit more personal.
Like I may post, if I go
to the gym at like 5:00 AMlike that will go on there.

(18:15):
Or like if I've just seen areally good movie that I like,
I may be like, have you guys seen this?
Um, and then Instagram isalso very similar where it's
behind the scenes, but also, um,
there's like a huge NewYork City tech community.
Um, and I go to a lotof the events with one
of my best friends, this guy named Andrew.
And he hosts like tech parties here.
Um, and he's like a phenomenal person.
So he just has like a ton of stuff.

(18:35):
Like a tech gala, Junto Club,
which is like a hundred people in.
Um, he basically, he modeled it
after I think Benjamin Franklin who used
to like pick differentpeople from every vertical
and put them all in one room.
And that's what he's doing in New York.
So my Instagram will havelike a lot of content
around like different events
that I'm going to or experiences.
- Amazing. Uh, you know, I, I know
of the the New York Tech scene,um, I've been lucky enough

(18:58):
to be on the fringes ofit a couple of times.
Um, I did not know that therewere so many different folks
who are really, uh, proactivelyencouraging that community
and really ensuring thatthere's in-person, uh,
opportunities forcollaboration. He's the guy,
- A cool thing.
He's the guy, honestly. Yeah,because he, so he moved here,
I think, right in the midst ofCovid and didn't know anyone.
And he had worked at Meta like you
and then he worked at Google as well.
Um, and he didn't knowanyone when he came here.

(19:20):
He initially grew up inChina and then Canada
and then, um, he hostedlike a dinner party here
and just like, uh, maybelike six or eight people.
All everyone that workedin tech went really well.
And now in the span of like three years,
I think he's hosted over a hundred events
with 30,000 people.
Um, he's like one of the mostexceptional people I know.
Um, and so I think, yeah, there,
the tech community may havebeen like super fragmented

(19:41):
before, but now everyoneis kind of in one place.
Um, there's also a lot of creators here.
Like David Cogan is here,um, who I know, you know.
Um, and then Born at Work,
Kevin Nether comes in a lot. It's good.
- Yeah. Plus- Like in LA
- Here in la I, I mean, youknow, the, the, the challenge
of LA is that LA is sucha disconnected city.

(20:01):
I I always joke that, youknow, unlike New York, which is
so centered around, even if
you're in a different borough, right?
Everybody comes to Manhattan.
Manhattan is kind of where a lot
of things are really sort of concentrated.
You know, LA it's not Hollywood.
It's kind of all over LA's a confederation
of neighborhoods rather thana single unified city. Oh, I
- Didn't know that.
Like how far are the differentthings from each other?

(20:22):
- In recent years there'sbeen a better development in
infrastructure regarding trains and buses.
They have, they haveimproved that quite a bit.
But broadly speaking,you're stuck driving,
you're stuck driving for atleast 45 minutes each time.
And it's really difficultto, to, you know, time
that in such a way thatyou're not hitting traffic
because traffic is almost 24 7.
So, um, don't come to LA expectingthat you're gonna be able

(20:45):
to go to one place andeverybody's gonna gonna show up.
It does not happen herenearly as much. That's
- So interesting.
Yeah. 'cause also Ifeel like there's a lot
of creators in LA but you don't really see
as much online like events.
I feel like you see certainpeople all hang out,
but not necessarily a huge event.
- Well the other thing too is
that when you talk about LAversus New York, if I say
that I'm in New York, the expectation is
that I'm really in the city.

(21:06):
When you talk about LAI mean like, you know,
our friend Austin Evans
and his team, they're 45 minutes an hour
outside of the city, right?
So you have to drive awayto get to their studio.
Um, versus, you know, other creators.
I know we were talkingbefore, you know, Justine
and Jenna is Eric, they'rein my neighborhood, right?
But because we're all working in studios,

(21:26):
we've all got these enclosed spaces.
Unless somebody has a specific event
that they're inviting everybody to the way
that you have in New York, we
don't really get that experience. Um, plus
- No one's gotta do it.
- I, I agree. But theproblem is I'm not really
a tech influencer.
I'm not influencing anybody,
but I'm not really a tech creator either.
So I can't always, like,
I don't know that I shouldbe that person. I don't know,
- Whatever.

(21:47):
I feel like that's not true.'cause I feel like you've been
in this space in like
so many different importantways for like 10 years.
- Important. Oh my gosh,yeah. I am writing this down.
Um, no, I, that's very generous of you.
- Wait, tell me, I wanna hear about Meta
'cause I feel like mostpeople don't really know
what you did there, but I feellike it was super important.
- Well, that's very kind. Uh,
this is usually aboutyou, but I'm, uh, okay.
Um, my time at Meta Ispent working on, um, uh,

(22:10):
mostly the,
what's called the New ProductExperiments team unfortunately
doesn't exist anymore, but it, it was, um,
Meta's internal startupincubator and Accelerator.
Uh, maybe the easiest way
to describe it is it wasthe Moonshot Factory trying
to make the next Instagram right.
Something big. Somethingthat was, you know, sort
of globally changing things.
Um, unfortunately, you know, for better
or for worse, we weren'table to produce that.

(22:30):
We produced a lot ofreally interesting products
that really served nicheaudiences well. Um, was
- Like, what was your favorite one
- Was?
My favorite one was the one I worked on,
obviously it was called Super,
it was not dissimilar from Riverside.
The platform we're recordingon this where oh man,
influencers could jumpon and talk to their fans
and there were these,uh, monetization options
that were very customizable.

(22:51):
So you never had to offer,you know, you didn't have
to force, uh, you know,pay me to access me kind
of stuff the way that some platforms do.
Everybody had the flexibilityto do it however they wanted.
Um, and I got to interviewsome great folks there.
In fact, the folks at VidCon,uh, were very generous
and asked me to host duringthe pandemic their weekly
conversations with some major influencers.

(23:12):
Wow. Yeah, I had a goodtime with that. Yeah.
- That's so fun. Yeah. Yeah.Were they on the platform?
- They were. So, um, afew episodes ago, uh,
this is another shamelessplug for another episode.
Jim Louderback, who was the CEO at VidCon.
Um, he and I had known eachother a little bit at, at,
uh, my time at Hulu.
And when they were looking fora video delivery service to,
to solve some of the challengesthey were experiencing

(23:34):
during, uh, the Pandemic, they came to us.
We had this thing that we were building.
We agreed to a partnership.
And so I worked with their team
to start hosting conversationsevery week. It was awesome.
- Yeah. That's so cool.
Yeah, I think there's like a huge, I
around the time you were doing it too,
there was like a huge uptickin creator conversations like
Colin and Samir really hitlike product market fit.

(23:55):
Um, yeah. So fascinating.
I definitely feel likethis last like three
or four years has been like the moment
for the creator economyand I think it's only
gonna keep getting bigger and bigger.
- I agree. You know, youused to have a podcast.
We, we really haven't chatted about it.
You know, you, you ranit for I wanna say two
and a half years andthen it sounds like it's
maybe paused production.What's going on there?
- Yeah, so I started thepodcast like I think two
and a half years ago withDar Katani, who's like one

(24:17):
of my best friends and also Tech YouTuber.
Um, the first YouTuberI ever met actually, um,
when we were, I was like13, I think he was like 14.
Um, and yeah, we were like babies.
Um, and we, like hewas, I met him in person
for the first time when I was like 15.
Um, and then we didn'tsee each other for years,
but we stayed in touch and thenwe just met each other again
in real life this year.

(24:38):
Um, it was like, I guessseven years had gone by,
but we had talked like every week a lot
of the time throughout that period.
Um, he's great. And so yeah,
we did a podcast called The Digital Dive.
It was like a conversationabout tech every single week.
Um, but I think I'm kind of a big believer
that you can only be liketruly, truly excellent at like,

(24:58):
you can, I think you can beexcellent in almost anything,
but you can't be excellent at everything.
Or at least you can't be
excellent at everything at the same time.
And so, um,
- I think, I think you'renot taking enough cold
showers, but anyway,
- I got you.
Yeah. Gotta get back in there, right?
Yeah, well I think you can belike excellent at everything.
Like in terms of likeeverything that matters
to you and like that's the goal, right?
To strive for it. Um,

(25:19):
but basically I feel likethere's so much that I have
to learn on YouTubeand there's, I've like,
we've accomplished like 1% ofwhat I wanna do on YouTube.
And so, and Dar similarlyhas like a lot of other goals
with like his career and, um, the podcast.
I just didn't thinkthat either of us could,
we both like didn't think that either
of us could give it enoughtime to like really grow it,
um, the way we wanted to.
And then I was also startingto travel so much for work, um,

(25:42):
this year that we endedup like pausing it and
or actually like fully ending it.
Um, but he's great And, um,we're still obviously really,
really close friends and I'm sure
that we'll work on somethingtogether in the future.
Um, but I just like,
I just wanna give NBT likeeverything I have right now
and like fully just try tomake the best videos possible.
- I appreciate that. I,I think it's important
to know when you shouldmove away from a project

(26:03):
that isn't fulfilling you
and is taking more workaway from the things
that will give you more of
that happiness, that achievement,that growth. It's tough
- When it is fulfilling you, but you also
think that it's not the right move.
'cause like, I loved itdude. Like it was like one
of the highlights of theweek, but it was also a six
or seven hour a week project that Sure.
Um, neither of us like really could do.
Um, and I think also like,I wanna always make stuff

(26:23):
that like if someone watches it
or listens to it, they feellike they got more than they,
like they, they feel like theygot more value than they gave
away by doing it.
Um, and I think to dothat you have to put just
so much time in and I justdidn't think, um, yeah,
I I thought the podcast was probably
not the best ROI for us.
Um, and I also feel like,
I dunno if you think about this too,
but um, Michelle, Kari talks about a lot
that your YouTubechannel's like your resume,

(26:45):
but you never know whichvideo is going to be the thing
that they see first.
So every video has to be great.
'cause like if they watchone video that sucks.
Now that's like your resume in their head.
Um, and I think samething like with a podcast
or any project you work on,like it has to be amazing.
'cause if that's someone'sfirst touch point with you,
then you want them to like know,like, oh, I associate Jason
with like excellent quality.

(27:05):
- You're giving me complimentsleft and right here.
But no, I get what you're gettingat. I, um, no, I hear you.
I, I think that's a really, I appreciate
that you wanna put 120% effort
into each one of those videos.
Who knows how people aregonna experience them.
You want to get the bestchance outta the gate.
I, I respect that. In the twoplus years you were doing the

(27:25):
podcast, I'd love any thoughts
or feedback that you have forme about things you learned
that I can improve on, right?
Because I did a fewtest episodes last year,
I'm taking this more seriously this year.
Perhaps there's somebody who'slistening who's also thinking
about podcasting.
What advice would youhave for me that I can use
to improve what I'm doing?
- Yeah, um, we were on Sega,who's a really close friend

(27:45):
of mine and also likea YouTube consultant.
Um, and I guess podcastconsultant too gave Dar
and I advice really early onthat was very helpful of like,
um, and it sounds obvious,
but neither of us werethinking about at the time.
And it was pick a niche
because we at the time would be like,
one episode would be newpixel lineup coming out
and the next episode would be a new
productivity hack that we tried.

(28:06):
And the next episode wouldbe, um, a new AI tool.
And it was like, what the hell?
Like what audience areyou hitting right now?
Like, no, there's no binge ability to this
because if they watch one episode
or listen to one episode,
there's no like same similar
value prop to listen in the second.
Um, and I think as a creativeit, like it feels limiting
to be like, oh, like niche down.
But I think there's actuallya lot of freedom in that

(28:27):
because yeah, there are so many topics
that you can do within a niche.
Like you pick like, let's say the
monetization models of being a creator.
That seems like a very narrow topic,
but in reality, like you cantalk to like hundreds of people
and it's such a big niche.
Um, so that would be like number one.
Like I feel like you wanna be able
to summarize it in one sentence
and have someone knowexactly what they're getting

(28:47):
and then they could justlike stumble upon the podcast
or the channel and belike, this feels like every
episode is made for me.
Um, and then I think the otherthing is podcasting is like
inherently a lot harderto grow than YouTube
'cause like, there's no algorithm,
but if you like, useYouTube to fuel it, um,
I think the podcast that I would probably
study would be like di ceo.
I think that they're doing areally good job of, um, getting

(29:09):
the show is huge on bothYouTube and Spotify.
Um, and their intros, liketheir first 30 seconds are
so well edited that the videosare like grossing millions
of views even though they'relike an hour and a half.
- Interesting. I appreciate that.
Uh, my Achilles heelright now is when I do a
recording and it's time for me to edit.
I love doing the conversation part
and I have a couple of thingsI wanna make sure I throw in

(29:30):
the front and back, and thenI'm just ready to publish it,
take some quick social clips,you know, using my tools, uh,
put them on TikTok, put them on
Instagram reels, and then move on.
Um, what I'm hearing fromyou, uh, if I might sort
of reflect it back, is,um, niche is important.
I think I'm getting there, but I,
I wanna keep narrowing it on it,
but the other actually is maybespending some more time in

(29:52):
the edit and making the front end
of the episode reallycompelling by finding those sort
of juicy bits and putting them up front.
Did, when you starteddoing that, did you find
that your watch through ratewas significantly higher
or your listening rate was higher?
Or is it just good best practices?
- Ooh, that's a goodquestion. 'cause honestly,
we never posted full videos on YouTube in
that style, so it's hard to say.

(30:12):
But I would say on YouTube,the first 30 seconds are
disproportionately a lot moreimportant than every other
part of the video because ifmore people stay in the first
30 seconds, like let's say an extra 10%
of people stay in the first 30,
that would carry over a muchhigher watch time versus like
an extra 10% staying in the last 30.
Um, and also I think like
the first 30 seconds you'rereally like selling people on
like, this video's gonnabe good, I promise.

(30:33):
Like, we're gonna deliveron the title and thumb no.
And then as time goes on
and people keep watching,like there's more of a trust
and like a emotionalintimacy that you build.
Um, so I feel like the first30 have to be like every part
of the video should weget, but the first 30 has
to be like even higherstakes, I feel like.
Um, and when I, I watcha lot of interview shows
and the ones that I loveare like con for example,

(30:56):
or, um, a named John who does a lot
of creator interviews too, or Jake Kloss
and they all like,
will basically take like thebest parts of the interview.
Like I've noticed theirformat is like best parts
of the interview and some type
of contextualization of the guest.
So like, um, on Di of Z, hehad on Alex Cooper recently.
Um, and I think a lot of people know her
for her podcast call her daddy,

(31:16):
but like, they don't necessarily know her
as like now they do more so,
but back when they, she was on like,
as like an emotionally vulnerable person.
So the, the intro is likeher kinda like crying
and then it cuts and thenit's like call her daddy.
And then like they haveall these people kind
of like talking about her, which like to,
the audience is like, if you know Alex,
you're like, let's go.
Like, I'm so excited thatshe's getting her time of day
and then if you don't knowher you're like, oh wow,

(31:37):
like I should know this person.
Tons of people know her andwe're talking about her.
Um, and that video, I thinkif you read the comments on
that video, everyone's like,
wow, I didn't really know this about her.
Like, I feel like Ilearned a whole new side.
Like I'm so glad I watched this.
And I bet if they didn't doa really compelling intro,
there wouldn't have beenthat comment section.
- Yeah, that's really interesting.
I, I'd love to hear alittle bit since you know,

(31:57):
your podcast was primarily audio
and you weren't using YouTube
as a full delivery of the episode.
Um, what did you find a valuefrom an audio only audience?
Was there, uh, learnings there that,
that I could take home and apply?
- Yeah, well I thinklike if you think about,
let's say you were doinglike an hour episode a week.
If someone listens tothat, you're probably one
of the people that they'veheard the most in their entire

(32:19):
week because most
of us don't have like hour long
conversations with that many people.
It's probably like, I dunno,five to seven people every week
that we like have like a really like deep
hour long convo with.
Um, so I think that's such a privilege.
Like if you're one of thepeople that they listen to, like
that um, creates a really different type
of relationship than
like watching an eightminute YouTube video.
Both are great, um, but alsolike you're in their ears.

(32:40):
And I think that's oneof the reasons why like,
we feel so close to musicians.
It's like we don't see them, we hear them
and so we could do it whenwe're doing other activities,
but it also just feels like very personal.
Um, so I think that the typeof relationship is different.
So it's like, even if likeyou're getting less listens,
maybe it's a higher value audience than
just like a random view.
Um, and then I guessthe other thing is that

(33:00):
because podcasting is normallyan activity that people,
they listen while they'redoing something else,
there's maybe a little bit less
of an importance inlike retention, editing.
Like I still think everypart needs to be interesting,
but on YouTube it's like zoom in text, um,
cut like on the podcast
and think it's like you getthem interested in the first 30
and then if you just keepopening up curiosity loops
it can be more conversational.

(33:21):
- That's fascinating. I justtoday as we're recording this,
um, published an episodewith our friend Kevin Nether,
Kevin the tech ranger Oh nice.
Where we talk about retention, editing
and his shift away from it.
So it's interesting to hear that contrast.
Oh, because yeah,
'cause he was talking a little bit about
how he was really leaning into it
and really trying to find hisversion of that Mr B style of,
you know, we're doing the, the $5 tech,

(33:42):
but there's the $5,000 tech coming soon.
And he really felt like ittook away from his ability
to edit a cohesive narrative
and feel like he was reallybeing true to his story.
So, so, um,
- And what then he shiftback to, did he say
- Yeah, he talked moreabout sort of how it's not
that he stopped doing thosekinds of, uh, uh, previews
of what's coming in the episode,

(34:02):
but he really focused moreon focusing on his story of
what the tech's valuewas not just the specs,
but what it reallybrought in terms of value
to his experience, whatyou might find value in it,
why it's different,unique, not interesting,
not unique, et cetera.
Um, and so he found that
that while the retention editingperhaps goosed his numbers
a little bit, what he foundwas that he was losing some

(34:24):
of the creative appealof what he was doing in,
in his edit, in his video.
Um, but I hear, I wantto contrast that with
what you're saying in termsof it's not about trying to
build a Mr B style retentionediting format in the front
of the video, but it isreally important in the front
of the, let's not even sayvideo in front of the piece

(34:44):
of media, whether it's video or audio. Oh,
- I like that. That's a good,
- Yeah, to, to capture attention
for the first 30 seconds to a minute.
And then your audience, ifthey've stuck around that long,
are far more likely to give you some space
to tell a longer story from there.
Am I hearing that correctly? I also,
- Yeah, but also like,I love Jimmy and Mr.
Reath and I think he's like an
exceptionally talented creator.
Um, totally. And I feel likesometimes like the online

(35:06):
sentiment of like Mr.
Ification of YouTube, likeI feel like people don't
understand how brilliant he is.
Like obviously a lot ofpeople do understand that,
but like he's such a talented creator
and like understands himpsychology in a really fundamental
way and like people arewatching his videos.
So I think that likeone of the, I think one
of the things you haveto really be good at
and as like I'm thinkingabout it all the time, like
for myself too, is like as a YouTuber

(35:27):
or entrepreneur, like yougotta be willing to adapt.
And I think it's so much easierto do well if you like go
with like what the like, um,
Pata Galloway who's a YouTubeconsultant, I just watched an,
an interview of him andhe was talking about
that he doesn't thinkthat episodic content does
that well on YouTube in general.
Obviously there areexceptions to that rule,
but he is like, why wouldyou do something that like

(35:47):
is not made for the platform,like do that on Netflix
or something, but like onYouTube, like make the stuff
that you know works well.
Um, and I'm kind of a bigbeliever in that I think
that there is like anelement of like innovating
and trying new things 'cause
like that's what makes it feel fresh.
But also, um, I think Jimmyis really, really smart
and has understood a lotof what makes a good video.
I think when people have copiedhim in the past, not Kevin,
'cause I love Kevin's work,but I think other people when

(36:07):
they've copied him in thepast have copied all the wrong
things and then they'relike, why isn't this working?
And it's like they maybeare shouting at the camera,
but they're not like takingthe storytelling fundamentals
that he has done thatmakes him so effective.
- I, I hear all of that.
I I absolutely agree and,
and I do think when we talk about,
I mean this is such a bland term now,
but the Mr Beatification of YouTube,

(36:28):
what you're really seeing isactually a very common thing
amongst large groups of people
where one person finds success
and there's 80,000 copycats
who don't understand why they're not doing
it as well as the original.
What he does, what Jimmy doesthat is so remarkable is that
it it is focused on the storytelling
and that the constant grab
for attention reallyfits his niche, which is

(36:49):
I think he would make content around how
to make an omelet in the morning if that's
what he thought people wanted to watch.
Totally. Right. His his entirefocus is not I want to be a,
you know, a game show host orI want to be an influencer.
It's just, I just want your attention
and I'm just gonna build the stories
and the interesting stuffto get your attention
and then we build from there.
So, so yeah, I, I hear that.

(37:11):
I also think too, you know, notevery glove fits every hand.
Right. I don't think that that you are
wrong in saying like there'sapplications of some of
what he does into your worlddoesn't necessarily mean you
wanna try to wholesale take what he does
and apply it to tech,which I've seen a couple
of people do. It doesn't really work.
- Yeah. I think, um, the, like,

(37:32):
different audiences want different things.
Um, and I also think that, um,
the next big thing on YouTubewon't be what Jimmy's doing.
It will be someone elsebecause Jimmy's always
gonna be the best at what he does.
Um, and he, since it's his ideas,
he'll be the one that debates it forward.
Um, I think the next personthat does really well,
it'll be their ideas andthey'll learn from the past,
but they're gonna innovatein a different way.
Um, and I think like, yeah, ifyou're just copying someone,

(37:54):
it's really, really hardto, I think, ever get ahead
because you're alwaysgonna be like looking at
what they've done tothen do your own thing.
Whereas, um, like I think Casey
and I stat talks a lot about like patience
and like showing up as a daily practice
because I think a lot of peoplewant it to happen overnight.
And I think most growth justdoesn't happen overnight.
It's really gradual. Um,
and it happens with like, everytime you learn new things,

(38:14):
like I don't think thatit's like the timing
that makes it successful.
I think it's like the learning,the acquiring new skills.
Um, so we'll see what thenext trend is on YouTube.
I don't know what it is yet,but I think it's exciting.
I think it'll be differentthan what it is right now.
- All that's great and Ireally appreciate that,
that when we talk aboutall of these elements,
there's the creative aspect of it.
There's the, uh, youknow, how am I gonna edit?

(38:36):
How am I gonna positionmyself in my niche?
How am I gonna differentiate?That's all great.
At the end of the day,you're running a business.
I would love to hear moreabout how you're thinking
of your business in its current state
and what growth is gonna looklike in the coming years.
- Yeah. Um, so it's an advertisingbusiness, which I think
for most creators is,um, the business model
where it's like you make media

(38:56):
and then you sell on that media.
Um, and I think that thatactually works really, really well
because eventually as a creator,
like you could diversifyinto other business types.
And then there's a lot ofpotential in tech to do things,
whether it be like a job board
and help people like work intech or do in person events
or, um, maybe like add likeinternal video consulting.
I think there's like a lotof different ways to do it,
but I think probably likeyour number one skillset

(39:17):
that you're, you're the best at
as a creator is making content.
So it's the easiestthing to monetize that.
Um, and I think there's somuch growth to be had there
before I try to do other things.
Um, so making media islike the business model.
And then I work with a company,um, called Smooth Media,
which is, um, run by oneof my closest friends,
this guy named Josh Kaplan, who he

(39:37):
and I have been really closefriends for many years.
Um, and he's just one ofthe smartest people I know.
He's just like one ofthose people that you meet
and you're just like, damn,like I just believe in you.
Like, I just think you're amazing. Um,
and so we became really good friends like
three or four years ago.
Um, and he at the time wasworking at Morning Brew, um,
which I'm a huge fanof that company. Yeah,
- They're great.
I love what they're doing there. They're
- So good.
He was employee number four,so he's really early. Oh, cool.

(39:58):
He and a huge driver ofthe growth. He's, yeah.
And um, Jenny is the other co-founder
and Kinzie, the other co-founder.
We're all very earlyemployees. I love all of them.
They're all great. Um,
just like really goodpeople, too fun to work with.
Anyway, so I met him,he was at Morning Brew.
We were just like, we'reboth like obsessed I think
with like media and the creator economy
and videos and entrepreneurship.
So we were meeting all the time
and just like talking about things.

(40:18):
Um, and I just felt like he got it
and I think like he felt the same way
where we were both just like, wow,
like we see the samevision of what we wanna do.
Um, and so we just stayedin touch, we just as friends
and then this year was a year
that we were like, alright, let's go.
Like let's commit andactually work together.
Um, and it's been amazing. I love them.
Um, we've had like ourbest quarter that we've had
so far, which is super exciting.

(40:39):
And we're taking on like alot of, we've said no to a lot
of partnerships and we're also taking
on a lot of partnerships that are great.
Um, because I think as a creator,
like the number oneasset you have is trust.
Um, so like every creatorprobably says no to like hundreds
of thousands of dollars of deals.
Um, and then they say yes to the ones
that actually make sense,which is like a crazy thing.
If you think about it. But alsoif you said yes to even one
of those and it ruinedyour trust, like you'd

(41:00):
be done, it'd be over for you.
So I think it's reallyimportant to say no to the ones
that don't make sense becausepeople are trusting you.
- What kind of a sponsorshipwould ruin trust?
Is it something more like theywant you to frame it in a way
that's unfair, or dothey just want to pay you
to say the words thatthey want you to say?
Like what's, what breaks thattrust in that space? That's
- A good question.
Yeah. I would never work witha brand that I'm reviewing.

(41:20):
Like I would never do a page review.
Um, and I think there'sa lot of opportunities
where it's like a phone companyreaches out, they're like,
Hey, would you do likea paid review of this?
And it's like an instant no.
'cause like the credibility,like people are coming to you
for your opinion and a review sense.
Um, so like the best partnershipsare ones where it's like,
I wouldn't review theproduct or the thing,
but I think it's amazing and I use it.
So now it's an easy thing totalk about, um, versus like,

(41:42):
oh, I reviewed this last week
and now today I'm going to do it again.
But this video is sponsored by X.
Like, you know, it, it wouldjust, I think not be great
or, um, something I don't
believe in would be an obvious one.
Um, I've recently a companyreached out, um, wanted
to do like a sponsored interview.
We also said no to that. 'cause like,
that feels like an ethicalgray area where it's like,
even if they don't tellme what questions to ask

(42:02):
or not ask, it just feels weird.
If the company's paying meto interview their executive
and I care a lot aboutinterviews, I'm like, that's
what I really wanna, one of thethings I really wanna build.
So it just wouldn't makesense. Um, so yeah, that,
and so Smooth's mission just quickly
is basically Josh helped, um, Josh, Jenny
and Kinzie helped grow MorBrew then they left when it was
acquired and they noticedkind of a gap in the market

(42:23):
where there are a lot oflike knowledge creators,
like creators that teachtheir audience something
that could build like amedia company but weren't.
Um, so they started working with Colin
Samir, that was their first client.
Um, and they built the published press
and now their whole thingis like building the next
generation of creator led media companies
in specific niches.
Um, and they don't workwith that many people.
Like they're really, they're kind
of become like a fullservice, like COO role

(42:45):
and strategist role.
Um, so it's been great. I love them.
And um, that's definitelylike going forward.
Like we just wanna build like a career
led unity company in tech.
So like everything we'redoing now, but bigger.
- Okay. I'm getting their numbers from you
before the end of the call, .
- Yeah. You guys shoulddefinitely have 'em on.
- Well as you're working withthem, you know, the one thing
that that is a constantthread of conversation
for folks I talk to is thatrather than looking for

(43:08):
outside knowledge and,
and you know, individuals comingin to support a team, a lot
of folks are turning to ai.
I know this is a conversation
you've had with your team a bunch.
Interesting. You know, I'vetalked to a ton of, uh,
of creators across thespectrum about their use of ai.
Do you employ toolsthat are AI centric and,
and what's your philosophyaround that, generally speaking?
- Yeah. Um, AI for sure, um,

(43:29):
I think is just gonnabe integrated in every
part of our creative process.
Eventually. Um, recently Iactually had the opportunity
to go to Congress with, um, YouTube
and like, speak at theWhite House about ai.
It's pretty cool. Um, wewere talking about like
how AI is gonna be integratedon like the YouTube side
of things, um, becausethey're, um, it's not out yet,
but they're creating somethingwhere they'll be able
to like AI dub your lips
and your voice to be ina different language,

(43:51):
which I think will makecontent really accessible
because right now, let's saylike the best math teacher is
like an English speaking, um, YouTuber,
but everyone else in the worldthat doesn't speak English
gets like the second tier knowledge.
We could live in a world whereit will just be transcribed
or uh, dubbed into every language.
And that to me is so exciting.
I think there are things to consider, um,
like people shouldprobably have opt into that

(44:12):
and how do we make sure
that like it's actuallydubbing it correctly.
There's a lot to consider there,
but I think that's really exciting.
Um, I was added to a betaprogram for them of like AI music
where they are working
with certain musicians likeCharlie Po to type in lyrics
and then, or to, basically theytrain a model on his lyrics
and his music, and then you can be like,
write me a song about cold brew coffee.
And then it'll be likein Charlie Booth style.

(44:34):
Um, so that's early in beta.
It's actually not outto like anyone anymore,
but they, oh actually maybe out.
But it's like very, very limited.Like you can't just do it
because there's a lot of, um, downsides
or things to consider with it.
Right now in this currentmoment how we use ai,
I would say we use itsometimes for thumbnails
to like conceptualize like,Ooh, what would this look like?
Um, we use it sometimes
for like title generationif like we're like,

(44:55):
make this shorter and clicker.
It's not always great, but likeit's a good starting point.
Um, and then I use it to learn things.
'cause like going back to the, I
learned best by asking questions.
AI is kind of the perfect tool for that
because I could be like,
teach me about aerospace engineering
and then I can ask likehyper specific questions
that like in each video,if I was like, oh wait,
that doesn't make sense to me.

(45:16):
There's like, no, I could leave a comment
and then stuff to the creatorversus like, AI is great
'cause education is so personalized.
Like I can be like, how does, like
how do I actually usea pathetic and theorem
and like, whatever it may be, and then it
can answer specific questions.
- I don't remember Path. I
remember Pythagorean Theorem. Yeah. But
- Yes, I didn't, I forgot aboutthat until like last week.
And then I was mind blown that like,

(45:36):
that it was such a vital part
of my life in high schooland now it's just over.
- I grew up with a mathteacher in the house.
, I knew whatPythagorean Theorem was
well before anybody else did.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah. You wanna get nerdy
when we were kids, kind of
- For advantage.
- Uh, to an extent.
I mean, my stepfather, uh,who is a math teacher outside
of Washington DC um, teacheseverything from, you know,
pre-algebra all the way up through AP Calc

(45:58):
and now multi, multi-variable calculus.
Wow. Um, and he used to encourage,
when we'd have long car rides, my brothers
and I would play what we call the prime
number game, where Okay.
You know, I would startwith the, you know, two
and then my brother would say three
and my other brother would say five.
And then I'd say seven andthe next one would say 11.
And the idea was you go in order
and you can't skip a prime number
and you can't say anumber that's not Prime.
And the idea behind, whoa,his, you know, encouragement

(46:20):
of it was, you know, thinkcritically is this number prime?
What are the checks youneed to make sure it's prime
or not, et cetera.
What it really devolvedinto is my brothers
and I screaming numbers at each other,
in this like hypercompetitive, ridiculous state.
Instead of making a threehour car ride go faster,
I think it actually mighthave made it slower. So, okay.
- You're the best. 'cause I love,
like most people's like gameswould be like, I don't know,

(46:42):
monopoly or something and like, no value,
but you're like actually learning math at
- The same time.
First of Monopoly, the whole point
of Monopoly originally was to teach
how capitalism is terrible.
I don't need to go onan anticapitalist rant.
Didn't, the original, Ididn't Purpose of Monopoly was
to teach you that no matter
how well you do in Monopoly,the bank always wins.
That was the original intent.
- Whoa. I didn't know that.
- The Parker brothers who thenlicensed the game turned it

(47:03):
into, look, you can be a landlord
and look how great it is to own property.
Yeah. And they completelysubverted the original
message. Whoa.
- I did not realize- That.
There's your history lesson for today.
See, you learned about pyre and theorem
and monopoly capitalist messages
and board games. Yes, exactly.
- And I didn't even needAI for the second one.
- See, love it needs ai.
When you have JI nope,that's not a thing. .
Anyway, um, no, I appreciate that.

(47:24):
I, I think, you know, the, thethread I'm hearing for a lot
of people is of course AI is gonna be
integrated every into everything.
And I want it to check my work
and I want it to offer suggestions,
but I wanna stay the ownerof the final decisions
and I wanna stay the ownerof the creative direction.
Um, do you see tools going that way?
Because I feel like I seesome stuff that people are,
you know, they're trying tolike, let me do the edit for you

(47:46):
with AI and let me do the,the, you know, um, even,
even when you were describing
before the concept around lip syncing
and all of that, you know,that leads to deep faking
and do we give AI the ability
to deep fake us and all of that?
Do you worry about those lines?
- Yeah. That trend is off thetracks. That's gonna happen.
Like I think we're, we're, we're into deep
with deep fakes at this point.
Um, I think hopefullyI'm an optimist at heart,

(48:09):
so hopefully the AI willget really good at detecting
DeepFakes and we can havethe AI kind of battle it out
and hopefully the detection AI is better.
Um, that would be a win.
Um, I think we're of course going to have
to figure out a way likeAI is changing so rapidly
that it's really hard to say.
Like, I think it's gonnachange the job market.
I think I'm an optimistic again,
so if we're being reallyoptimistic about it,

(48:30):
I don't think it willmake people not have jobs.
I think the jobs willjust gonna be changed.
Um, I think adaptability, Ithink the, the number one skill
that we can probably allteach our get better at is
like the ability to learn new things.
Because I feel like AI is gonna constantly
change the playing field.
And so if you have the skill to rely on
of like being a quick learner,which I think anyone can be,
um, we'll be in a betterspot, uh, in terms of like

(48:51):
how it's gonna affect creativity.
Um, I watched a Casey interview of this
that I thought was reallycomforting where he was like,
at the end of the day, likeit's just a tool at humanity,
like the ability to makesomeone happy or cry
or feel something whenthey're watching a video.
AI will insist assist in that,
but it's not like AI is goingto replace that tomorrow.
Maybe one day it will, who knows?

(49:11):
Um, but I think it'snot really helpful to,
I guess like hyper-focus on that from now
and then not make great work because
we don't know when that's gonna happen.
So I think it's probably thebest move is to just like,
make great work right now
and then deal with it when that happens.
- Love that. I love that approach.
Well, my friend, we've cometo the end of our time.
I really appreciateit. Before you go Yeah,

(49:31):
there is one question Ilike to ask all of my guests
and I I love to referencethe brilliant brothers, Hank
and John Green of Vlog Brothers
for this one. One, yeah.Because this was, oh God,
- From their concept crash course.
- Oh, yes. Um, so, you know,
Hank Green talked recentlyabout whether he likes it
or not, for better or forworse, the conversation
that he's engaging with onlineon YouTube, you know, via

(49:53):
crash course and vlogbrothers and all of that.
It has to end eventually, right?
Whether we want it to or not,
we cannot make content forever.
At some point it, the conversation ends
and when we do that, you know, our body
of work is then availableto other people to enjoy.
When somebody looks atthe totality of your work
and they think about what you've created,
what do you want your creativelegacy to be in that space?

(50:13):
What do you want them,your family, your friends,
to take away from all of that that,
that you've been building for so long?
- Yeah, well hopefully there'sstill a very long way to go.
I feel like we're just getting started.
- We're talking aboutlike 80 years from now,
90 years from now, Lee, you're
'cause you're that math.Yeah. Okay. Anyway,
- Yeah, 80 years from nowI'll be like 102 maybe.
Like the cold plunges perfect will
help me get there, youknow. Um, , you

(50:34):
- Know, what if the coldplunges get you there?
I more power to you
- .
Um, yeah. Ooh, that'ssuch a good question.
I, there, uh, there's a tellSwift quote that I like,
which is, um, working hard
and being kind is a greatlegacy to leave behind.
Um, and I think like, I love that.
So hopefully it'll belike always showing up
and trying to be a really good person

(50:55):
and making people feelbetter, like at the end
of the interaction thatthey felt at the beginning.
Um, it would be really coolto make people feel excited
and optimistic about technology.
I think there are somany people that love it
and grew up with no one intheir life that also loved it.
I definitely had that experience
where like I was thetechiest person in my life
and like, I didn't reallyfeel like I had friends
that love tech until I started YouTube.

(51:15):
Um, so hopefully like thevideos can provide comfort in
that way of finally like,
connecting with someonethat also loves tech.
Um, and I think like technology
has the ability to change your life.
So hopefully the conversations
that we have in the interviewsinspire people to like,
take action and maketheir lives 1% better.
Um, and I think that lastpart of it is that I'm
so privileged to work withso many amazing people on the
videos and I feel like, I hope that

(51:35):
they feel really proud of the work too.
Like if at the end of the daywe all feel like we've created
great things for techenthusiasts, then it'll be a win.
- Love it. Jacqueline, thank you so much.
I really do appreciateit. Uh, before we go is
- Something of course, can I ask you?
Yeah. Oh, I wanna know whatwhat legacy would you want Ohoh,
um, this podcast on?
- Uh, well, um, you know, when I ran

(51:57):
for class president my junioryear of high school, my, uh,
campaign slogan was Jason Nellis, honesty,
integrity, comedy.
And I think that kind of sums up
Ooh, , how I, I love that.
I did not win that election.I lost it by nine votes
and I'm still sour about it, but
- Yeah, it's more than nine people. That
- Sucks.
I don't know, but I'm still pissed.
Um, yeah, whatever I was,I was on homecoming court.
Any I lost that too actually. Nevermind.

(52:18):
High school was terrible. To,
to answer your question honestly.
Yeah. And thank you for the question.
You know, when I think about what my, uh,
legacy is, right?
I think of it very specificallyin the context of my son
and I want him to, uh, youknow, have led a life, uh,
and watch me lead my ownlife in the same context.

(52:39):
I think, you know, thinkingabout creativity in the kind
of context that you and Iare discussing it, right?
What's the practical application, right?
It's one thing to think aboutcreativity in these giant
heady spaces of we could dothis and we could do that,
but actually doing the work,committing to the process,
learning and struggling
and building as you go isreally important to me.
Yeah. To be honest with each other.

(52:59):
And to be honest with, with, you know,
the people in our lives we love,
that doesn't mean radicalcandor does not mean, you know,
unnecessarily mean, but it isas yeah, you know, forthright
and honest and empathic about all of that
as you can be empathetic.
Sorry. Yeah. But, um,you know, in comedy too,
like I think life hasenough tragedy, right?
We already have enough suffering.
Why can we add some, youknow, some laughter to it?

(53:21):
So yeah, that's, that's my thinking.
I, I want those three things to be,
I think I want those three things
to be my legacy, but ask meagain in a year. Who knows?
- Yeah. No, that's awesome. I feel like
so far your track record ispretty strong on bringing
all those, so that's awesome.
- I dunno about the comedy,but I appreciate the other two.
Thank you . I'm, I'm still
struggling on that third one, .
Um, well Jacqueline, thank you again.
Uh, and we uh,

(53:43):
you cut me off before, butI'll throw it out again.
, is there anythingyou've got coming up
that you wanna alert folks to, uh,
before we uh, say goodbye?
- Yeah, if you wanna checkout the humane ai, uh,
pin CEO interview, thatwill be live on YouTube.
Super excited about it. Um,
and the next video is going tobe testing every smart watch.
I went to bed with like fourof them for sleep tracking.

(54:04):
It was fun. So if you want
to see which one's the most accurate sleep
- Tracking, I don't needfour watches to tell me.
I have a terrible night'ssleep, but I appreciate
- Thought.
Yeah. Oh, it was bad. Yeah, it
actually made my night's sleep worse.
It was like, I they were
so uncomfortable theentire night, right? You
- Were at four watches.
I mean, you, you move your armsand suddenly it's like, but
- Every time you move you likeslammed and it's like bright.
Um, yeah. But it was fun.
- Pass. Alright, good. Wellthanks again. Have a great day.

(54:26):
- Yeah, thanks.