July 24, 2024 • 46 mins
Leave feedback for Jason directly: https://watch.jogg.co/r/K1Nr
"At the same time, I'm in this investment banking club. I was constantly told I wasn't good enough. I was constantly told I was never gonna get a job, I was never going to be able to pursue my dreams."
Lauren Huttner, recent Northwestern graduate and founder of Pebble Community Labs, thumbed her nose at what "everyone else" was supposed to do, and found her own path throughout college. Convinced that the creator economy was her calling, she's built strategies for major creators, digesting mountains of data and testing so they can find the pixel-perfect edits and get their audiences get engaged. She contributed to a marketing company's acquisition, built her own agency from the ground up, and she's just getting started.
Lauren and I chatted about her experience in college with those who doubted her, how she's launched Pebble into a scalable, profitable business, and where she's headed next. We touched on the different ways creators can use data - freely available in every platform they're publishing - to optimize their content and grow their audience. And we discussed how hard it is to grow a podcast audience (whoops!).
The Podcast Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeUjBzgS9MfQ4arXwyeKwo2ehifKp-8Hi
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
- I had to learn about FOMO
and how to get over fear of missing out.
Do I try to fit in
and like align myself with what a lot
of my other friends arethinking at this time,
which is like, whatsocial scene are we in?
Do I really tap into like whatmy desires are in getting out
of the college experience?
- Let me interrupt forjust a second to say
that all happened freshman year.
(00:20):
That's intense and crazy
- At the same time.
I'm in this investment banking club.
I was constantly toldI wasn't good enough.
I was constantly told Iwas never gonna get a job,
I was never going to get,be able to pursue my dreams.
Um, and the guy told me,
you will never get into therooms you ever wanna be in.
Proud to say I proved him wrong.
- It's not easy to talk abouttimes when people are slamming
doors in your faces andin particular to hear
that somebody was proactively, uh,
(00:42):
telling you you'll never succeed.
Uh, I don't think we should do it,
but it makes me wantto name shame somebody.
Welcome to BuildingValue. I'm Jason Nellis.
When you think about college,what are some of the cliches
that come to mind?
College is the bestfour years of your life.
College is where the adventure begins.
Go on and give it the old college try.
(01:04):
Well, regular listenersmight have picked up that
during a conversation or two.
I've talked about mylove for my alma mater,
Northwestern University,which located just north
of Chicago is only kind of northern
and being in the stateof Illinois is not really
that western, but
that's a whole otherconversation for another day.
You see, when I was in school,
my focus was on being a theater major,
(01:24):
my friends having a good time,
and I definitely wasn't thinkingabout my career long term.
But today's guest is cutfrom a different cloth
and dare I say, perhaps a smarter one.
Today I'm interviewing LaurenHuttner, who is the founder
of Pebble Community Labs
and a fellow recentgraduate of Northwestern.
Lauren works with lots ofdifferent content creators
and influencers, but always
(01:46):
with a keen eye towards research,
experimentation and data science.
Our conversation focused on
how she founded hercompany over the course
of her four years and how she's worked
with clients like Stacey Blackman
and Turbo Labs all whilegetting her degree.
We also talked abouthow difficult it can be
to grow a content audiencethese days, especially
as it turns out a podcasting audience.
(02:07):
But that there are lots ofdifferent ways you can experiment
with content to findnew audience segments.
If you like what you see inhere, be sure to subscribe,
follow, review, do all the things
because hey, they really help.
This is Lauren Huttner. Lauren, welcome.
It's lovely to have you.How are you doing today?
- I'm doing good. How are you?
(02:28):
- I'm great. We have so many things
to capture on today's conversation.
Um, first things first,
you're a recent Northwesterngrad go Wildcats.
How's it feel to be post-graduation?
- It's been super fun. Alittle daunting, but very fun.
- Daunting is fair. That's reasonable.
Um, you did something
that I think is morecommon than when I went
(02:49):
to Northwestern, but is perhapsless common than the world
might recognize, whichis throughout the course
of your college career, youstarted working with influencers
and creators and actuallyactually built your own agency.
Can you talk me throughhow that genesis came about
and you know, sort ofhow you put that initial,
I don't know, inspirationand plan together?
(03:10):
- Yeah, I never thoughtI would go to college
and build anything.
I actually applied to Northwesternas a political science
and transportation minor.
I wanted to do urban planning.
My parents, my sister, theylike all made fun of me for it.
And I graduated highschool during Covid, so
I was stuck in mybasement for three months.
Um, my parents wanted me to intern,
(03:31):
so I picked up an unpaidinternship at a startup.
And I think that really changedmy perspective on the world.
I think it's very easy to feel
like other things are controlling you.
And for the first time in that internship,
I felt like I was a bit morein control of my future.
And so I had a mentor, amanager who really pushed me
to explore all facets of business.
(03:53):
I was hired as a marketingintern, so I wrote emails,
I did social media, um,
which we can dive into thewhole social media thing
because I think it'sreally funny how there are
so many parts of mylife that kind of led me
to my interest in social media
and I never picked up on it
until I did some serious reflecting.
Um, but she pushed me
(04:14):
to really keep exploring entrepreneurship.
Um, the point of the startupwas to help young girls,
you know, uncover uncnon-traditional career paths.
And obviously it did that to me.
So after the internship, Iswitched my major to journalism.
Um, didn't know if I wasgonna pick up a second major,
but that was just the switchI in initially made, um,
(04:34):
arrived quote unquote on campus,
as in I hopped on a Zoom call, um,
took my first journalism classes
and was, you know, writing a lot.
I really loved writingabout entrepreneurship
and business people for some reason in
that first year class,that first semester class,
which was taught by JA Adonde, an icon.
(04:55):
Um, and I came back for winter break
and I was part of thiscommunity called Gen Z
mafia accidentally.
Um, I think I did likea hackathon with them
to learn design reallyquickly, which was encouraged
by my manager of my internship.
And I met someone
and he was like, well, do you have any
ideas you wanna build?
And I was like, you know,
maybe I should buildsomething for fashion.
(05:17):
Like I'm really like,
this is not a world I'vebeen exposed to before.
Like, why don't I justsee what's out there?
Um, so I cold emailed someone
that had won a fashioncompetition, sat down with her,
you know, we had a conversation.
I came up with this initial crypto idea.
I, that was just like a little strange.
Um, and then with that I applied
(05:38):
to a Northwestern programcalled The Garage,
which is our entrepreneurshiphub on campus.
Pitched this idea to a mentor
and that mentor was Mateo Price,
who at the time wasbuilding a company called
Authentic Media Ascension.
And I come in and I'm like,
I wanna build this fashionloyalty thing using crypto.
And he's like, that'sgreat, great. Go build it.
Like such a good idea. Andthen two days later I get an
(06:01):
email, it's like, Hey Lauren,you are really talented.
I actually wanna bringyou on to our company.
Uh, let's have a conversation.
So I was employee number five
or six outta Authentic Media Extens.
And that company did dataanalytics for YouTubers.
So I would sit in callswith Jesser and AJ Lare
and Ali Abdal and basicallyhelp them hack the YouTube
(06:24):
algorithm to get moreviews and more money.
Um, and so they had ateam of data analysts
and then they brought me into do all this community work,
so helping them understandtheir audiences better,
helping them come up with ideas
and things to build off platform.
And so at the end of freshman year,
I was having lots of fun.
They, that summer I ended up working two
(06:45):
internships in a sense.
I was like interning fora venture capital firm
and then also helping a MA, um,
that was when Jelly smackalso first came to us.
So I was like, you know, getting
to play a little hand in that as well.
And then in sophomore year, um,
authentic Media Ascension got acquired
by Jelly Smack, and I felt,
(07:05):
- Hold on, let me, let me pause.
Let me interrupt for just a second to say
that all happened freshman year.
Yes. Like, like let's take a moment
and appreciate that's intense and crazy.
Um, how did your familyrespond when you were like,
I I mean I'm in freshman year
and I'm like kind of on theground level of this, you know,
truly innovative space.
Did they even understand?
(07:25):
- So no.- , okay.
- Um, my parents are doctors and lawyer.
Once a doctor wants a lawyer, um,
they really thought I was going to college
and going to become a lawyer,
like straight after graduation.
My sister is going straightthrough to dental school.
Um, so when I was tellingthem about this startup
and this creator economy, I mean,
they still don't understand what I do.
(07:47):
Um, but they were like, you know, as long
as you're occupied this summer
and not causing problems,like, good for you .
But I remember sitting in my kitchen,
we had like these barthis, like these bar stools
and I would sit at mykitchen taking all my calls,
my dad would be like, what is going on?
And I was like, I'm justtalking to cool people
and doing cool things.
(08:08):
Like isn't this, isn't this enough?
Um, but no, I didn'treally realize even to
what I was getting myself into, um,
because I've alwaysbeen like, I've engaged
with content I think sinceI was like 10 or 11, right?
I remember vividly findingYouTube on my like old white,
(08:28):
my lark or like family'sold white MacBook.
And I remember pullingup Kesha's TikTok song,
like a lyric video.
And I remember going to my parents
and being like, look,it's like a YouTube video.
I love this song. Andthey were freaking out.
'cause a, they didn't likethat the first like lyrics
of Kesha's TikTok had tipsy in it.
So my mom lost it.
(08:50):
But secondly, they knew that me
and my sister had discovered the internet
and were absolutely terrified, .
Um, so I've always engaged with content.
I've always been fascinatedwith how, you know,
people make money on theinternet, people come up
with the ideas that they produce.
Um, and also like virality in a sense too.
(09:12):
Um, why do people go viral?
What do they do thatmakes them interesting?
Why are peop I remember gettingmusically for the first time
and being like, why is LaurenGray have so many followers
and Lauren Huttner doesn't?
Like, what do I need to do ?
Um, and so when I joined a MAIdidn't really realize it at
the time, but I was learningprobably the answers to one
(09:35):
of the questions I've had since I was 13,
which is why do people go viral
and like, how does that happen?
What are the stakeholders? AndI think that initial answer
that I had received from like my parents,
or when I would ask thisquestion a lot is it's just
because people have connections.
'cause their parents are,um, entertainment execs
(09:56):
or you know, they gotinto these rooms as kids.
That's why that they're,they're so popular.
And I think to a degreethere are some people that
that's the case, but forothers they've learned how
to play the game of socialmedia platforms in a sense.
- There is a game, there's an algorithm
to be gamified, right?
I mean, that's one of thereasons why in, in this world,
(10:17):
that's such a hot topicfor so many people.
Um, you make it to sophomoreyear a MA gets acquired,
you're still working on adegree, presumably at that point.
It's not like you left college early,
but like, I don't knowhow you're balancing all
of these things because Imean, I, you know, in college,
like getting a job atthe local coffee shop
was a strain on my schedule.
I don't know how you did all of this
(10:37):
and still graduated on time.
- That's a great question.
Um, the nice thing about ajournalism degree is it wasn't,
it's funny 'cause I think people make fun
of the degrees People studybased on how difficult they are.
I loved my journalism degree.
I learned really valuablelike video production skills
and I actually bring a lot
of the journalism stuffinto what I do now.
(10:58):
Um, but the class load waslike a little bit lighter.
Uh, luckily AP credits, I didwrite a thesis senior year,
which was maybe not the rightcall no regrets though.
Just learned a lotabout Bolivia. Um, sure.
- And then a, a topic oneverybody's mind. Yes. A topic
- On everyone's mind.
I, yeah, it was quite an experience.
(11:19):
Um, but I think for me, I really was just
so interested in it.
It didn't really feel like work at all.
I just, after a MA wasacquired, I felt really lost.
I'm not gonna lie, I wasstill interested in crypto.
I actually picked up a crypto project,
it like a media cryptothing completely fell apart.
(11:40):
I kid you not two monthsafter I had picked it up.
And when I went to my,
I told myself at this time I wasalso pursuing some other things.
I had waltzed my way intoinvestment banking club,
which was a choice.
Um, and then once the acquisitionhappened, I was like, no,
we're not gonna do that anymore.
(12:01):
Um, but basically
I was interning mysophomore year in New York
and that's when I came to the decision.
I was like, you know whatreally keeps me happy?
It's the creator stuff.
It's the being able to helpcreators build their businesses
and build their brands.
I had picked up a freelance client right
after, um, a MA was acquired.
(12:22):
I also had a freelance client
that I was doing while Iwas at a MA that I was like,
hopefully one day this likeblends into the normal business.
And so I just was like, you know what,
if I wanna keep doing this,I'm gonna keep doing this.
I'm gonna put myself out there to do it.
So I picked up a couple creators
to help them build Discord communities.
Um, I also worked onbuilding another course
(12:43):
for UGC content creators,which was super interesting.
And that's coming full circleback right now as I work
with more UTC content creators for brands.
Um, and then brands startedasking me if I could build their
brand communities because Covid, you know,
had created this bigshift for people to want
to build digital communitiesfor their brands.
And it was going great for sophomore year.
(13:06):
Um, and then even junior yeara little bit too, I was, um,
playing around with that.
And then I got myinternship at Inc. Magazine.
And if you know anythingabout journalism, uh, conflict
of interest is just like not some,
not a game we play inthe journalism world.
So I had to kind of stop all my projects.
Um, but after my internship,um, I felt re-inspired again.
(13:28):
I was working on theirlike TikTok account too.
I had written some writtensome really fun concepts
that never got executed, but it was cool.
Um, and I was like, you know what?
Let me get back into this world again.
So I picked up an influencermarketing gig outside
of my venture capital internship.
So I'm doing two, two things.
Like once again, um, had mytwo computer, I was so funny.
(13:49):
I would walk into thisspace called,
which is like a bigco-working space in New York.
And I'd have my personal computer
and my venture capital computer
and I would just be like, scratch Joan.
I would just be like this the entire time,
like one computer and the other computer.
Um, but I helped do a biginfluencer campaign for Bama Rush.
Um, because I had followedthat trend the year before
(14:12):
and the year before thatI understood like how
that was creating a new talent pipeline.
And that really is howI got even deeper into
what I'm doing now by justseeking out that experience
and just doing it and then learning
how to do it really well.
And like I would argue I'mstill working towards, you know,
(14:32):
defining what really well means.
But, um, it's been a really fun time.
- I love the energy in your story.
I love that a lot
of these things cametogether organically, right?
You know, your, uh,progression from, uh, you know,
beginning college during apandemic when nobody was having a
good time to, to having grownsomething that is unique
(14:53):
and specific and defined
and doesn't have an endgoal so much as it's just
where you find yourself creating
interesting things and building value.
Hello. Working the title of the
podcast into the conversation.
Uh, and I, I love that.
And I think that, thatthere's something in there
that's really special aboutlike following your instincts
and following the things thatyou find most interesting
(15:13):
and can build value from.
Right? Like if,
if your attention had drivenyou towards underwater basket
weaving, well that's lovely,but how do we monetize that?
I don't know, maybe you'renot interested in monetizing
that, but what you found was that
that perfect intersection of all of that.
One thing I do want to ask you about a lot
of your work is client facing.
I've done some of that work myself
(15:34):
and I know how hard it is
to manage the personalities of creatives.
And as a former theatermajor at Northwestern, I saw
that coming a mile awaywhen I was at school,
let alone after I graduated.
I'm sure you had a similar experience.
What's been your philosophyaround managing clients
and, you know, the, the, the interplay
of their personalitiesand your boundaries?
(15:57):
- Learning how to setboundaries was probably
the toughest thing.
You know, being ableto be like, okay, hey,
this is like what I'm doing.
Like this is this online with you?
And if it doesn't, like just accepting
and moving on, like if you cantell a working relationship
isn't going to work, breathe.
It's not the end of the world. Move on.
There are so many otheropportunities out there.
(16:19):
Um, but I also reallypick projects to work on
that I'm super passionate about.
So for example, I help runone of the dupe.com accounts.
So this guy named Bobby who's the founder,
he's hired a bunch of creators
to help him run these accounts.
And for me, I love doing it a
because I love talking about the product.
(16:42):
I think it's hilarious.Like I think just all
of the marketing and the storyaround it is really funny
and I can make it seemreally entertaining.
But b I'm obsessed with like figuring out
why videos are performing certain ways
and that keeps me driven.
And even though it's somethingthat's like very out of scope
of the traditional stuff Ido with my agency, I do it
(17:04):
'cause it like truly brings mejoy to pack at the algorithm.
Like, you know, from afirst person point of view,
which is super fun.
Um, but you know,
I could easily just say,oh, that's out of scope.
Like, I'm not gonna do that. But I took it
because I genuinely enjoy working on it
and I align with the missionand the content strategy.
But I've had other peoplewhere it's like, you know,
(17:26):
we're just gonna like do these things.
You're gonna do it the way we wanna do it.
And I really like enteringinto places where I can,
I know I can add some sort of value.
Um, and so I've also learned how
to be a little bit more selective.
'cause you know, time is something that's important. So
- I really appreciate that yousolved a problem for yourself
(17:49):
that I think a lot ofother people, uh, don't,
uh, find early, right?
That heuristic of where amI willing to be flexible?
Where do I need to hold the line?
Where am I willing to try something new
and where do I need to stickto with what's worked for me?
I think is a a you know, it's a heuristic
that can sometimes takeyears to figure out.
Was that something that you, you mentioned
before you picked up some ofthose skills at Northwestern.
(18:11):
Um, was there a particularclub or a particular activity?
And again, this is me justshouting out our alma mater
'cause I still bleedpurple for them, I promise.
But is there, was theresomething there that helped sort
of educate you in that direction
and help give you thatsense of foundation to, to
to build on top of for that?
- Yeah, I think literally everything
that happened my sophomore year
(18:32):
and junior year kind of forcedme to grow up a little bit.
Um, so there's like a coupledifferent storylines that have
that are happening all at once.
The first is I joined a sorority,
sororities have their own social dynamics.
I was not in the in-groupof the sorority, so I kind
of existed on the fringe,which I had to grapple with.
(18:52):
I had to learn about FOMO
and how to get over fear of missing out.
I had to learn, you know, how
to interact in different social
scenes that I wasn't used to.
I didn't go to a frat party until, okay,
Northwestern will hate me saying this,
but spring of 2021,
which is like when thingswere just opening up,
that's when I went to my first frat party.
These people who I hadbeen joining a sorority
(19:14):
with had been going since the fall.
Again, Northwestern won'tlike that 'cause of COVID,
but I was just very on the outside of it
and I had to emotionallydeal with, do I try to fit in
and like align myself with what a lot
of my other friends arethinking at this time,
which is like, what social scene are we in
and how can we socialclimb at Northwestern
(19:35):
or do I really tap intolike what my desires are
in getting out of the college experience?
At the same time I'm in thisinvestment banking club where,
which I joined for a couple reasons.
One, my freshman year theyhad sold me this narrative
that I would learn about venture capital.
And the only way to get intoventure capital according
(19:56):
to them, was to do investment banking,
which is a complete lie as someone
who got a VC internship my junior year
and also turned down said return offer
to pursue everything else I wanna do.
Um, I had joined it 'causeI was sold on a narrative.
Um, I joined this club was probably one
(20:16):
of the most emotionallydegrading experiences
I've ever been a part of.
I was constantly toldI wasn't good enough,
I was constantly told Iwas never gonna get a job,
I was never going to get,be able to pursue my dreams.
And after the acquisition,I fully called the president
and I said, Hey,company's gotten acquired,
have killer internshipin New York doing exactly
(20:37):
what I wanna do, which wasthis venture studio run
by Michael Loeb, which was super cool.
Um, and I had also received afellowship from Northwestern
called the Little Joe VenturesFellowship, which they, this,
um, donor gave me $5,000
to work on any idea
and pursue professional development
(20:57):
opportunities in entrepreneurship.
So I used that to goto South by Southwest.
Um, and there's anothercomponent of this too
that was a life coaching component.
Um, and the guy told me,
you will never get into therooms you ever wanna be in
and proud to say I proved him wrong.
So, um, I'm having all
of this stuff happen my sophomore year
around social sceneprofessional pressures.
(21:19):
And this fellowship kindof came in my junior year
and save me a little bit.
So I had a life coachfor two years basically
through this program that helpsme learn more about myself,
learn why I was like feeling certain ways
and reacting in certain waysto the situations around me.
And this life coach alsoultimately helps me make the
(21:41):
decision around whatI'm doing now post grad,
which is building my agency.
Um, but to be able tohave someone, you know,
really conceptualizethings was so helpful.
Um, it wasn't therapy
because I feel like for me,
therapy is just someone likevalidating your feelings
(22:01):
for me, I really needed someoneto provide me frameworks
and like a way for self-improvement
and a way to understand whymy brain is working completely
different than the peers around me.
And that's exactly what I got out of it.
Um, and so with her help, I was able
to learn how to set boundaries.
I was able to kind of loosen up a bit
and respectfully learn not to give
(22:23):
an f about anything like that book.
Yeah, that book. Basically Ilearned all of that from her.
Um, and the last thing Ilearned was really just how
to like, treat myselfnicely and like be ambitious
and not be afraid to pursue what I want
and to kind of manifest the life I want.
(22:47):
And I know manifesting is likea super like wooy wooy topic,
but I'm convinced a lot ofthe things that I have done,
particularly in the last year have been
because I've followedsome sort of manifesting.
I've actively put myself in the rooms
that I've wanted to be in.
I've prepared myself for serendipity
and I've just beencompletely unafraid to pursue
(23:10):
what I want, which is really hard
to do in a college setting.
- A hundred percent. Uh, you'llfind no pushback from me on
the concept of manifesting.
I am married to somebody whois, uh, an expert in astrology
and tarot and human designand also has a Wharton MBA.
So I think these things cancoexist together beautifully and
and I would fully supportthat if that strategy works
(23:32):
for you as it clearly has.
Keep at it. No questions here.
Um, I I wanna take a step back though
and really, uh, pull a thread, uh, about
what you just shared andthank you for that by the way.
Yeah. It's not easy to talk,
talk about times when peopleare slamming doors in your
faces and in particular, you know, not
that my experience atNorthwestern was a hundred percent
lovey-dovey rainbows andsunshine and unicorns,
(23:54):
but like to hear thatsomebody was proactively, uh,
telling you you'll never succeed.
Uh, I don't think we should do it,
but it makes me want toname shame somebody, right?
Like that's, you know,particularly at a time when we're
so much more cognizant of thework that we're all having
to do, whether as the peoplewho need to be, you know,
given a little bit more equity in life
(24:15):
or those that need to do the lifting up
because we've had that privilege,
it really frustrates me to hear that.
And I'm sorry that you wentthrough that experience
on the plus side, if there issuch a thing, what a great way
for you to be able to definefor yourself your direction,
uh, your um, value as you'rebringing it to the table.
And, and you know, to beable to nanny, nanny boo boo
(24:36):
that guy when clearly you've found success
and he's probably still at his, uh,
Goldman internship hopingthat somebody notices him.
Do you, do you keep a list of people
that you're gonna like callout one day when you're like,
you know, ruler of the world?I would, I'm just saying
- I don't, I sometimes I like send my
friends little jokes about it.
Like I have two very closefriends who are in on everything.
(24:59):
Um, but I will say likeresilience is something
that I think my parents instilled on
in me in a very young age.
I was a competitive figure skater.
So if you fall on something,you get back up and try again.
In high school faced sort ofsimilar situations, in terms
of being like put down
or, you know, deniedcertain opportunities.
(25:19):
And so at some point Ijust realized like, no,
the only person that willlook out for you is yourself.
And so if you're not activelyputting yourself in the spaces
you wanna be in, you're just
putting yourself at a disadvantage.
And you know, I, it's funny, I, I would,
I challenged myself I think this year
and even junior year tolike send a certain amount
(25:41):
of cold emails every day
and just like seek outconversations that I wanted to have,
you know, read an articleand then like DM the author
and be like, Hey, I loved this.
Let's chat. 'cause a numberof times that's worked
and helping me learn new things.
A which I think embracingevery conversation
with curiosity is the numberone tip I have for just a,
(26:03):
advancing yourself.
But b, building genuineconnections with people.
Um, and then the second thingtoo is like I've picked up a
lot of mentors just byputting myself out there.
Um, the person who I had DMDabout the article is now we're,
we now text like almost monthly.
He is really invested in my success.
(26:25):
He intros me to lots of people,which is really helpful.
Um, and I just, you know, share
what I'm learning being young
and I guess on the groundin a sense 'cause I am Gen Z
and he's trying to learn alot more about Gen Z stuff.
So I'm glad I can be mutual.
I'm glad we have likea mutually beneficial
relationship going
on.- .
Let's shift gears a little bit.
You talked earlier about datascience being a core part of
(26:47):
what you were doing, not only at a MA
but broadly what you bring to the table
as part of your agency.
Now can you take me throughsort of if I'm a new creator
and I'm getting started,what are the factors in terms
of my analytics and the metricsthat I should be tracking
and what are the things I should be paying
the most attention to?
Is it follower count
or is it something else that'sperhaps a little bit more
(27:08):
buried within my dashboard?
- So the first thing is youprobably wanna have a sense
of direction on where you wanna go.
Are you creating for fun?
Are you creating 'causeyou wanna make money?
Are you creating to getyourself to another goal?
Um, something that a lot ofmanagers I've talked to do
with their talent, and I think regardless
of whether you have amanager, a creator should do
(27:31):
is set a north star, set some goals.
Um, the metrics that Ilike to pay attention to,
defer on platform and also defer on size.
And again, the goal, likeif you wanna grow followers,
you obviously need to payattention to each individual piece
of content and how it's performing.
Not only the views, butthe likes, the comments,
(27:53):
and especially on Instagram, the shares.
Because as the Instagram, CEO has said,
the shares are a very bigfactor in the algorithm
and pushing your short formcontent onto the discover feed.
Now on TikTok it's a little bit more,
at least in my experience ofan oddball, you'll see a lot
of things happen and you're just like,
(28:15):
I'm still constantlytrying to reverse engineer
what is going on with my content.
Um, I've noticed when I postsomething particularly on the
DU account, it'll get,
if it gets like a really quicknumber, quick number of views
to favorites, it performs really well.
The video gets lots of views, um, versus
(28:38):
another video I literally justposted an hour ago is having
this very slow burn to 200,but I know it'll surpass 200
because I'm looking atlike the completion rate
and the five second retention.
Um, so there are lots ofnumbers you can pay attention
to depending on whatyou want to accomplish.
Um, but if I'm setting goals
(28:58):
and I wanna build a moresustainable career as a creator,
the thing I would pay themost attention to is views.
Do not care about follower count.
I can tell you from a brandside, as someone that's working
with eight or nine brands right now
and sourcing creators,I could care less about
how many followers you have.
What I care about is you hitting a
consistent number of views.
(29:20):
And so the way that you cankind of game the views is,
again, as I said on Instagram,the likes, the comments,
the shares optimizing for that.
But on TikTok it isreally paying attention
to those retention numbers
and those video completion numbers
because what you can do with
that information is change your storyline.
So as you become a bitof a bigger creator,
(29:42):
and this is what we would doat AMA two, we really start
to pay attention to the narrative
composition of your videos.
So what I mean by that islike your hook, your body
and your call to action.
Um, and we do this withbrands two, we experiment
with different hooks, we experiment
with different storylines,and we just experiment
with different, you know,
(30:02):
what's the action you're gonna take?
Are you going to click a linkin the bio right now what's
really popular is commenting on the post
and then an automatic DMbeing sent to your Instagram.
Um, and so really playing around with
how your videos are composed
and then you can get immediatefeedback on that data.
On TikTok in particular,because of the retention
(30:23):
and the percentage of people
that complete your video metrics,
I am manifesting Instagramads this as well.
I think it would be sohelpful for a lot of creators.
Um, but even on YouTube,I work with one creator
in particular, um,
and I've taught her howto game her narratives so
that she increasesretention on her videos,
(30:44):
increases like averagewatch time basically.
And what we've done is she's a figure
skater just like I was.
What we've done is we've,
I've told her you'regonna do your first part
of your video part figure skating,
the middle part your life,the end figure skating.
And I wanna see how like howthis figure skating first part
(31:06):
of your video performs.
How much figure skating do weneed in your videos for them
to reach the audience you wantand to get that watch time
and ultimately get more money
because YouTube pays out pretty well.
Um, and then the last thingI'll say too, on the data front,
particularly for creatorsis you should pay attention
(31:27):
to like the different buckets of content
and how they're performing.
So if I'm gonna do a self dataaudit on myself as a creator,
I wanna go through and kind of put all
of my content into different buckets.
Now that can be what is thiscontent going to accomplish?
What's the theme of this content?
Um, who am I collaborating with?
(31:48):
If you collaborate with a lot of people,
like definitely do that too.
And then I would run an analysisof like, likes, comments,
views, and also shares obviously , um,
and figure out whichbuckets are top performing.
I would create more contentin that top performing bucket
and then like a, a like two to one ratio.
(32:08):
So you know, a two thirds
of your content should bethe content that works.
And then the other thirdshould be experiments.
And I would do this self dataaudit, you know, every month
or every quarter and just seelike what is performing well.
And if you wanna get really, really like
micro like microscopicscale on it, you know,
paying attention to like, what am I
saying in the first three seconds?
(32:30):
How long are my captions?That's what I do .
So you can talk to me about that.
Um, but that also, like, thereare so many little things too
that can impact theperformance of a video,
but at a surface level, justpay attention to the trends.
You know, if you'reseeing a lot of variation,
take a step back, look atyour data, do a little bit
of a qualitative analysis of it
(32:52):
and that should help you reset.
- So much to think abouthere. I love all of this.
I'm taking copious notes, notjust for myself selfishly,
but also because I want to come back
to some of these points later.
I really appreciate that you're
talking about the nitty gritty.
I think a lot of times whenpeople talk about, you know,
what can you do to, toreally think holistically,
they stay very at the strategic level.
Well you need to be thinking about X
(33:13):
or you know, you say payattention to the trends,
but you're also givingvery specific examples.
I would never think about how much
of figure skating at the front
of a video will affect the completion
rate for the whole of a short.
Uh, I'm curious though,does this analysis translate
as well to long form content?
'cause it sounds likeyou're pretty focused
on short form content.
(33:35):
- The figure skating analysiswas for long form content .
- Oh, great. Totally misunderstoodthat. That's even better.
Okay. I'm thinking itwas like a 62nd short.
Yeah, and we're just trying tosee how much we need upfront
before we get people into the short.
- Well, we do that, I do that with a lot
of the brand content on theshort form stuff of like,
let's experiment what'sat the front actually,
like I've come up with a wayto build a content machine
(33:57):
with UGC creators whereI have them do different
video com, like differentcompositions of hooks.
So whether that's askit, talking to camera,
something aesthetic,like a still shot, um,
and testing the retentionspecifically, you can get
that data from TikTok
and I don't know if youmaybe on shorts too,
not on Instagram, I know that for sure.
(34:19):
But the long formnarrative composition, like
that was a really corething we did at a MA
was literally telling creators, you need
to create three individual storylines.
You're gonna place them,
we're gonna give youadvice based on, you know,
your past data on whereyou place those storylines,
and then we'll measure andsee if that's actually going
to impact anything.
(34:39):
At the end of the day, platformscare about keeping people
on their platform, right?
So if they see that peopleare finishing videos
or watching for a reallylong time, they're going
to reward you for that byeither A, paying you out,
or B, prioritizing yourcontent in their algorithm.
- How do I know that thealgorithm wants to work for me?
(35:01):
Can I just say that like oneof the, even as somebody on the
inside at meta, right, it is ablack box in terms of knowing
what works, what doesn't.
You're providing some reallygreat examples of some
of the tactical things you can do,
but I'm not sure thatlike at a higher level, I,
I can trust sometimes that theplatform wants me to stay on.
It just seems like, you know,there's this constant tension
(35:23):
of, uh, we want more content as much
as we want optimized content.
So I guess my question for you is, at
what point is it more valuable
to just try new thingsstraight outta the box versus
optimizing an existingdirection you've been pursuing?
- That makes sense.That's a loaded question
because I too have, again,
(35:43):
every single learning I'vedone has been from the outside,
it's been me staring at lots of numbers
and trying to figure it out. Um, if you,
- You don't have a magic answerfor me, um, now that hurts.
- I'm sorry. But here'swhat I can tell you.
The thing that matters themost in building your content
strategy from the getgo is testing different
(36:04):
video composition.
So when building Turbo Learnsinfluencer marketing campaign,
we really started withtrying to figure out
how are people going to listen
to the information we'regoing to present to them.
So I didn't want to,
you never wanna liketest your message first.
You wanna test the wayyour message is presented
because you wanna figure outhow people are going to listen
(36:27):
and engage with you.
So if you're really earlyon your content journey,
do not be afraid
to change the way you'representing your content.
Whether that's talking tocamera, doing something aesthetic
and like still shots, doinga compilation of cl clips.
I, my favorite new contentstyle, I call it yapping,
where you literally just talkto the camera, very stream
(36:50):
of thought, really goodfor conversion by the way,
like this is a new hack.
Um, but really exp like if you're early
and you don't have somethingsuper set in stone, experiment
with the way you'representing your content.
And then once you figure outthe way people like to see you,
then you can play aroundwith like the narratives,
the messaging, you know, yourpersonal identity in a sense.
(37:13):
Now if you've kind of hit aplateau, you're like maybe mid
you're, maybe you're in thisfor like a little bit longer
than just starting out, I like to say, um,
it can be really difficult,the idea of like having
to pivot your content, um,trying to pivot to a different
way you're, you'representing your information.
(37:34):
I would say though that ifyour content is plateauing,
it's probably a presentation issue.
It's not a narrative issue,it's a presentation problem.
Something in the, something you're not,
like retaining your audience in the
way that you usually are.
You know, you're, it's not
that you're notinteresting anymore, right?
It's just the way that you'retalking about yourself isn't
hitting the audiencethe same way it used to.
(37:58):
Um, I remember sittingdown with one of the
creators I worked withon a Bama Rush campaign,
and she was like, I reallywanna have my own podcast.
Like that is my goal.
And she had been postingall of these get ready
with me videos, you know,talking about Bama Rush,
and I sat her down and Iwas like, if you want to get
to this podcasting goal,we're gonna have to slowly,
(38:19):
you're gonna have to slowlytreat yourself like a podcaster.
You're gonna have to slowlyopen up, be vulnerable, yak
to the camera, that kind of thing.
Um, and so I think when you're,
you're hitting those plateaus,like again, take a step back,
maybe reanalyze yourdata for a little bit,
but a majority of the timeit's just a composition problem
(38:40):
and you'll just have to changethe style in which you're
presenting what you're presenting.
- Can I tell you that issuch a refreshing take
because so many times whenI ask questions like this,
I get a response that'smostly focused on thumbnail
or title as it pertains to,you know, YouTube or on TikTok.
You know, it's gotta be abig boisterous hook at the
(39:01):
beginning if you're gonna expect people
to last more than three seconds
and a, a perspective that says
you're probably saying somethinginteresting, but the format
and the way in which youvisually present it is just not
landing with the rightaudience is so much more sane
and so much less.
Um, there's a term in gamingcalled Min Maxing, right?
(39:23):
I put in the, you know, I tryto maximize one attribute so
that I, you know, so that I,I get the most value out of it
and I'm minimizing the thingsI don't care about as much.
And so much effort seems tobe in min maxing that concept
of like your thumbnail
or the beginning of yourvideo as this boisterous Mr.
Beast esque kind of thing.I love the idea of yapping.
I yap all the time. I love yapping.
In fact, my parents have, right,
(39:44):
my parents have accusedme of that for years.
Why wouldn't I just put thaton film? Um, I love that.
Uh, I, I'm really excited tosee, you know, for example,
how her podcast turns out
or you know, how, you know, other
of your clients sort of adjust to this.
Um, I, I don't wannamake this about myself,
but I do want to say thatlike so much of what you're,
(40:05):
you're telling me now is teaching me
and I'm taking again, fervent notes.
I hope everybody who's listening is too.
Um, is there something inthe world of podcasting
that you're seeing that works really well
beyond talking straight to camera?
Because my challenge rightnow is I've got a, a couple
of people who are reallydeeply invested as an audience,
but I haven't foundthe version of this yet
(40:25):
that communicates to a broader audience.
And maybe the answer is more,you know, long form videos
where I'm talking straight to camera.
Maybe the, the solutionis more short form content
that isn't AI generated,
but that I'm just, youknow, I had a conversation
with Lauren, here's three quick things
I learned from that conversation.
Like I, you know, Idon't know where to start
that exploration.
Do you have any thoughts there?
(40:47):
- Pod first off, podcasting,
social media is probablythe most difficult thing
because cool, everyone sees
- Lots of podcasts.
Well, I'm in that high. Alright.
- I will say, at least for me as a viewer
and the content I see performing well, um,
I've been watching a lot oflike planet, the bar stool,
like Planet Brie, graceO'Malley, Brianna Chicken Fry.
(41:09):
I think they do a really good job
because it, it's so, I mean, unlike this,
it's like in person,so it's really relaxed.
The banter is really played up in the way
that the content is clipped.
Um, and so that makes it alittle bit more conversational,
feels a little bit more yappy, I guess, .
(41:29):
Um, and ultimately I thinkit's why it performs well
beyond just the fact that like,
that account has so many followers.
Um, but then you see, youknow, the kind of podcasts
that are targeted towardsentrepreneurship, rows, I like
to call them, where it'sagain, you know, headphones,
mic set, et cetera, feels very,very high production high.
(41:52):
And like, I do think productionquality does play a role in
how podcasting videos do perform.
Um, but to me it's, it,it feels like the way
that those video, I I thinka lot of it comes down
to the way those videos are cut.
So, you know, sometimes they'll start off
with the most important learning
(42:12):
and then they will hathey will cut back to
that person telling the whole story.
Um, and that's a compositionthing you can play around
with is like, do I sharethe first important tidbit
and then do the whole long thing?
Um, but yeah, I would also,I think for you personally,
I would play around with the split screen.
So is there me
(42:34):
and you in the same frame, um, on it?
I don't know if that'sgonna work for every clip
unfortunately of this,but like, that's an idea.
Um, and then if you ever dodo in person stuff like the ca
keeping it casual, keepinglike the banter I guess in a
sense can be really engaging too,
especially on short form content.
Um, but on the long formside of things, I mean,
(42:57):
it's just havinginteresting conversations.
I don't know how many peopleare actually watching a YouTube
video podcast rather thanjust listening to it.
Um, but podcast
distribution is like thehardest thing to hack.
So thoughts and prayers to
you,- .
Well that, that feelslike a perfect end note.
(43:19):
Um, Lauren, this has been amazing.
The, the one last thingI want to touch on, uh,
before we go is what isthe next step for you?
What is the next thing you'reaiming for in your growth?
Uh, you know, the next, uh, you know, the,
the next high point for your,
your agency, where do you want to go next?
(43:39):
- For sure. So yeah, I have my own agency,
which is super exciting.
Um, it's a data-driven socialstudio, so very focused on,
again, figuring out thatcomposition, figuring out
that narrative, and justcreating enough content to test
and collect data and helpbrands build a viral playbook,
whether that's on the organic front
or the influencer marketing front.
(44:01):
I also help creators withit too, which is always fun
because I, I think at somepoint I do wanna get back into
focusing on creators andfocusing on helping creators grow
because it is so exciting to see
people really owning their narrative
and trying to buildsomething for themselves.
(44:24):
Um, every year I set somesort of like optimization
that I wanna go for in the year,
and I think this year'soptimization has been
optimized fulfillment.
And so I'm really focused onfiguring out, you know, now
that I'm just graduatedcollege, figuring out like
what it does that keeps mefulfilled and keeps me happy
and something that I feel really fulfilled
(44:44):
doing is helping others.
So that's why I created a, an agency
and a service-based business.
Um, but, you know, there are
so many things I wanna accomplish
and I'm, I'm very much so thekind of person that's going
to go with the flow andfeel like, you know,
trust my gut on a lot ofthe decisions that I make,
but also constantly knowing my worth
(45:06):
and constantly staying grounded in,
you know, what I've accomplished
and what I want to accomplish.
I hate the question oflike, what do you wanna do?
Where do you see yourself in five years?
Because honestly, I have no idea.
I am just started this, Ihopefully this still, like,
hopefully I pebbles still exists
in the next five years ifit hasn't been acquired yet,
(45:30):
but if it has, that's great.
I'll build something else. Um,
but at the end of the day,I just wanna keep continuing
to help creators and brandshack this big black box known
as social media platforms.
- I love it. Lauren, this hasbeen a tremendous pleasure.
Thank you so much for your time.
(45:50):
If folks wanna follow up with you directly
or maybe they wanna engageyour services at Pebble,
uh, where do you wanna send them?
Where's the right spot foryou to engage with folks?
- You can hit me up onLinkedIn or Twitter.
Uh, that's probably the two best ways.
Um, we, again, it's making a website.
We'll see if I'll, I'llactually let you know
if it's up by this point.
(46:11):
Great. The website is with Pebble xyz.
I bought the domain, I justneed to actually build it.
Um, but yeah, I write, I alsowrite a lot on Twitter too.
I'm trying to get betteron LinkedIn, so, um,
definitely can check me out there.
- Amazing. Lauren Huttner,thank you so much.
- Thank you .
- I had to learn about FOMO
and how to get over fear of missing out.
Do I try to fit in
and like align myself with what a lot
of my other friends arethinking at this time,
which is like, whatsocial scene are we in?
Do I really tap into like whatmy desires are in getting out
of the college experience?
- Let me interrupt forjust a second to say
that all happened freshman year.
(00:20):
That's intense and crazy
- At the same time.
I'm in this investment banking club.
I was constantly toldI wasn't good enough.
I was constantly told Iwas never gonna get a job,
I was never going to get,be able to pursue my dreams.
Um, and the guy told me,
you will never get into therooms you ever wanna be in.
Proud to say I proved him wrong.
- It's not easy to talk abouttimes when people are slamming
doors in your faces andin particular to hear
that somebody was proactively, uh,
(00:42):
telling you you'll never succeed.
Uh, I don't think we should do it,
but it makes me wantto name shame somebody.
Welcome to BuildingValue. I'm Jason Nellis.
When you think about college,what are some of the cliches
that come to mind?
College is the bestfour years of your life.
College is where the adventure begins.
Go on and give it the old college try.
(01:04):
Well, regular listenersmight have picked up that
during a conversation or two.
I've talked about mylove for my alma mater,
Northwestern University,which located just north
of Chicago is only kind of northern
and being in the stateof Illinois is not really
that western, but
that's a whole otherconversation for another day.
You see, when I was in school,
my focus was on being a theater major,
(01:24):
my friends having a good time,
and I definitely wasn't thinkingabout my career long term.
But today's guest is cutfrom a different cloth
and dare I say, perhaps a smarter one.
Today I'm interviewing LaurenHuttner, who is the founder
of Pebble Community Labs
and a fellow recentgraduate of Northwestern.
Lauren works with lots ofdifferent content creators
and influencers, but always
(01:46):
with a keen eye towards research,
experimentation and data science.
Our conversation focused on
how she founded hercompany over the course
of her four years and how she's worked
with clients like Stacey Blackman
and Turbo Labs all whilegetting her degree.
We also talked abouthow difficult it can be
to grow a content audiencethese days, especially
as it turns out a podcasting audience.
(02:07):
But that there are lots ofdifferent ways you can experiment
with content to findnew audience segments.
If you like what you see inhere, be sure to subscribe,
follow, review, do all the things
because hey, they really help.
This is Lauren Huttner. Lauren, welcome.
It's lovely to have you.How are you doing today?
- I'm doing good. How are you?
(02:28):
- I'm great. We have so many things
to capture on today's conversation.
Um, first things first,
you're a recent Northwesterngrad go Wildcats.
How's it feel to be post-graduation?
- It's been super fun. Alittle daunting, but very fun.
- Daunting is fair. That's reasonable.
Um, you did something
that I think is morecommon than when I went
(02:49):
to Northwestern, but is perhapsless common than the world
might recognize, whichis throughout the course
of your college career, youstarted working with influencers
and creators and actuallyactually built your own agency.
Can you talk me throughhow that genesis came about
and you know, sort ofhow you put that initial,
I don't know, inspirationand plan together?
(03:10):
- Yeah, I never thoughtI would go to college
and build anything.
I actually applied to Northwesternas a political science
and transportation minor.
I wanted to do urban planning.
My parents, my sister, theylike all made fun of me for it.
And I graduated highschool during Covid, so
I was stuck in mybasement for three months.
Um, my parents wanted me to intern,
(03:31):
so I picked up an unpaidinternship at a startup.
And I think that really changedmy perspective on the world.
I think it's very easy to feel
like other things are controlling you.
And for the first time in that internship,
I felt like I was a bit morein control of my future.
And so I had a mentor, amanager who really pushed me
to explore all facets of business.
(03:53):
I was hired as a marketingintern, so I wrote emails,
I did social media, um,
which we can dive into thewhole social media thing
because I think it'sreally funny how there are
so many parts of mylife that kind of led me
to my interest in social media
and I never picked up on it
until I did some serious reflecting.
Um, but she pushed me
(04:14):
to really keep exploring entrepreneurship.
Um, the point of the startupwas to help young girls,
you know, uncover uncnon-traditional career paths.
And obviously it did that to me.
So after the internship, Iswitched my major to journalism.
Um, didn't know if I wasgonna pick up a second major,
but that was just the switchI in initially made, um,
(04:34):
arrived quote unquote on campus,
as in I hopped on a Zoom call, um,
took my first journalism classes
and was, you know, writing a lot.
I really loved writingabout entrepreneurship
and business people for some reason in
that first year class,that first semester class,
which was taught by JA Adonde, an icon.
(04:55):
Um, and I came back for winter break
and I was part of thiscommunity called Gen Z
mafia accidentally.
Um, I think I did likea hackathon with them
to learn design reallyquickly, which was encouraged
by my manager of my internship.
And I met someone
and he was like, well, do you have any
ideas you wanna build?
And I was like, you know,
maybe I should buildsomething for fashion.
(05:17):
Like I'm really like,
this is not a world I'vebeen exposed to before.
Like, why don't I justsee what's out there?
Um, so I cold emailed someone
that had won a fashioncompetition, sat down with her,
you know, we had a conversation.
I came up with this initial crypto idea.
I, that was just like a little strange.
Um, and then with that I applied
(05:38):
to a Northwestern programcalled The Garage,
which is our entrepreneurshiphub on campus.
Pitched this idea to a mentor
and that mentor was Mateo Price,
who at the time wasbuilding a company called
Authentic Media Ascension.
And I come in and I'm like,
I wanna build this fashionloyalty thing using crypto.
And he's like, that'sgreat, great. Go build it.
Like such a good idea. Andthen two days later I get an
(06:01):
email, it's like, Hey Lauren,you are really talented.
I actually wanna bringyou on to our company.
Uh, let's have a conversation.
So I was employee number five
or six outta Authentic Media Extens.
And that company did dataanalytics for YouTubers.
So I would sit in callswith Jesser and AJ Lare
and Ali Abdal and basicallyhelp them hack the YouTube
(06:24):
algorithm to get moreviews and more money.
Um, and so they had ateam of data analysts
and then they brought me into do all this community work,
so helping them understandtheir audiences better,
helping them come up with ideas
and things to build off platform.
And so at the end of freshman year,
I was having lots of fun.
They, that summer I ended up working two
(06:45):
internships in a sense.
I was like interning fora venture capital firm
and then also helping a MA, um,
that was when Jelly smackalso first came to us.
So I was like, you know, getting
to play a little hand in that as well.
And then in sophomore year, um,
authentic Media Ascension got acquired
by Jelly Smack, and I felt,
(07:05):
- Hold on, let me, let me pause.
Let me interrupt for just a second to say
that all happened freshman year.
Yes. Like, like let's take a moment
and appreciate that's intense and crazy.
Um, how did your familyrespond when you were like,
I I mean I'm in freshman year
and I'm like kind of on theground level of this, you know,
truly innovative space.
Did they even understand?
(07:25):
- So no.- , okay.
- Um, my parents are doctors and lawyer.
Once a doctor wants a lawyer, um,
they really thought I was going to college
and going to become a lawyer,
like straight after graduation.
My sister is going straightthrough to dental school.
Um, so when I was tellingthem about this startup
and this creator economy, I mean,
they still don't understand what I do.
(07:47):
Um, but they were like, you know, as long
as you're occupied this summer
and not causing problems,like, good for you .
But I remember sitting in my kitchen,
we had like these barthis, like these bar stools
and I would sit at mykitchen taking all my calls,
my dad would be like, what is going on?
And I was like, I'm justtalking to cool people
and doing cool things.
(08:08):
Like isn't this, isn't this enough?
Um, but no, I didn'treally realize even to
what I was getting myself into, um,
because I've alwaysbeen like, I've engaged
with content I think sinceI was like 10 or 11, right?
I remember vividly findingYouTube on my like old white,
(08:28):
my lark or like family'sold white MacBook.
And I remember pullingup Kesha's TikTok song,
like a lyric video.
And I remember going to my parents
and being like, look,it's like a YouTube video.
I love this song. Andthey were freaking out.
'cause a, they didn't likethat the first like lyrics
of Kesha's TikTok had tipsy in it.
So my mom lost it.
(08:50):
But secondly, they knew that me
and my sister had discovered the internet
and were absolutely terrified, .
Um, so I've always engaged with content.
I've always been fascinatedwith how, you know,
people make money on theinternet, people come up
with the ideas that they produce.
Um, and also like virality in a sense too.
(09:12):
Um, why do people go viral?
What do they do thatmakes them interesting?
Why are peop I remember gettingmusically for the first time
and being like, why is LaurenGray have so many followers
and Lauren Huttner doesn't?
Like, what do I need to do ?
Um, and so when I joined a MAIdidn't really realize it at
the time, but I was learningprobably the answers to one
(09:35):
of the questions I've had since I was 13,
which is why do people go viral
and like, how does that happen?
What are the stakeholders? AndI think that initial answer
that I had received from like my parents,
or when I would ask thisquestion a lot is it's just
because people have connections.
'cause their parents are,um, entertainment execs
(09:56):
or you know, they gotinto these rooms as kids.
That's why that they're,they're so popular.
And I think to a degreethere are some people that
that's the case, but forothers they've learned how
to play the game of socialmedia platforms in a sense.
- There is a game, there's an algorithm
to be gamified, right?
I mean, that's one of thereasons why in, in this world,
(10:17):
that's such a hot topicfor so many people.
Um, you make it to sophomoreyear a MA gets acquired,
you're still working on adegree, presumably at that point.
It's not like you left college early,
but like, I don't knowhow you're balancing all
of these things because Imean, I, you know, in college,
like getting a job atthe local coffee shop
was a strain on my schedule.
I don't know how you did all of this
(10:37):
and still graduated on time.
- That's a great question.
Um, the nice thing about ajournalism degree is it wasn't,
it's funny 'cause I think people make fun
of the degrees People studybased on how difficult they are.
I loved my journalism degree.
I learned really valuablelike video production skills
and I actually bring a lot
of the journalism stuffinto what I do now.
(10:58):
Um, but the class load waslike a little bit lighter.
Uh, luckily AP credits, I didwrite a thesis senior year,
which was maybe not the rightcall no regrets though.
Just learned a lotabout Bolivia. Um, sure.
- And then a, a topic oneverybody's mind. Yes. A topic
- On everyone's mind.
I, yeah, it was quite an experience.
(11:19):
Um, but I think for me, I really was just
so interested in it.
It didn't really feel like work at all.
I just, after a MA wasacquired, I felt really lost.
I'm not gonna lie, I wasstill interested in crypto.
I actually picked up a crypto project,
it like a media cryptothing completely fell apart.
(11:40):
I kid you not two monthsafter I had picked it up.
And when I went to my,
I told myself at this time I wasalso pursuing some other things.
I had waltzed my way intoinvestment banking club,
which was a choice.
Um, and then once the acquisitionhappened, I was like, no,
we're not gonna do that anymore.
(12:01):
Um, but basically
I was interning mysophomore year in New York
and that's when I came to the decision.
I was like, you know whatreally keeps me happy?
It's the creator stuff.
It's the being able to helpcreators build their businesses
and build their brands.
I had picked up a freelance client right
after, um, a MA was acquired.
(12:22):
I also had a freelance client
that I was doing while Iwas at a MA that I was like,
hopefully one day this likeblends into the normal business.
And so I just was like, you know what,
if I wanna keep doing this,I'm gonna keep doing this.
I'm gonna put myself out there to do it.
So I picked up a couple creators
to help them build Discord communities.
Um, I also worked onbuilding another course
(12:43):
for UGC content creators,which was super interesting.
And that's coming full circleback right now as I work
with more UTC content creators for brands.
Um, and then brands startedasking me if I could build their
brand communities because Covid, you know,
had created this bigshift for people to want
to build digital communitiesfor their brands.
And it was going great for sophomore year.
(13:06):
Um, and then even junior yeara little bit too, I was, um,
playing around with that.
And then I got myinternship at Inc. Magazine.
And if you know anythingabout journalism, uh, conflict
of interest is just like not some,
not a game we play inthe journalism world.
So I had to kind of stop all my projects.
Um, but after my internship,um, I felt re-inspired again.
(13:28):
I was working on theirlike TikTok account too.
I had written some writtensome really fun concepts
that never got executed, but it was cool.
Um, and I was like, you know what?
Let me get back into this world again.
So I picked up an influencermarketing gig outside
of my venture capital internship.
So I'm doing two, two things.
Like once again, um, had mytwo computer, I was so funny.
(13:49):
I would walk into thisspace called
which is like a bigco-working space in New York.
And I'd have my personal computer
and my venture capital computer
and I would just be like, scratch Joan.
I would just be like this the entire time,
like one computer and the other computer.
Um, but I helped do a biginfluencer campaign for Bama Rush.
Um, because I had followedthat trend the year before
(14:12):
and the year before thatI understood like how
that was creating a new talent pipeline.
And that really is howI got even deeper into
what I'm doing now by justseeking out that experience
and just doing it and then learning
how to do it really well.
And like I would argue I'mstill working towards, you know,
(14:32):
defining what really well means.
But, um, it's been a really fun time.
- I love the energy in your story.
I love that a lot
of these things cametogether organically, right?
You know, your, uh,progression from, uh, you know,
beginning college during apandemic when nobody was having a
good time to, to having grownsomething that is unique
(14:53):
and specific and defined
and doesn't have an endgoal so much as it's just
where you find yourself creating
interesting things and building value.
Hello. Working the title of the
podcast into the conversation.
Uh, and I, I love that.
And I think that, thatthere's something in there
that's really special aboutlike following your instincts
and following the things thatyou find most interesting
(15:13):
and can build value from.
Right? Like if,
if your attention had drivenyou towards underwater basket
weaving, well that's lovely,but how do we monetize that?
I don't know, maybe you'renot interested in monetizing
that, but what you found was that
that perfect intersection of all of that.
One thing I do want to ask you about a lot
of your work is client facing.
I've done some of that work myself
(15:34):
and I know how hard it is
to manage the personalities of creatives.
And as a former theatermajor at Northwestern, I saw
that coming a mile awaywhen I was at school,
let alone after I graduated.
I'm sure you had a similar experience.
What's been your philosophyaround managing clients
and, you know, the, the, the interplay
of their personalitiesand your boundaries?
(15:57):
- Learning how to setboundaries was probably
the toughest thing.
You know, being ableto be like, okay, hey,
this is like what I'm doing.
Like this is this online with you?
And if it doesn't, like just accepting
and moving on, like if you cantell a working relationship
isn't going to work, breathe.
It's not the end of the world. Move on.
There are so many otheropportunities out there.
(16:19):
Um, but I also reallypick projects to work on
that I'm super passionate about.
So for example, I help runone of the dupe.com accounts.
So this guy named Bobby who's the founder,
he's hired a bunch of creators
to help him run these accounts.
And for me, I love doing it a
because I love talking about the product.
(16:42):
I think it's hilarious.Like I think just all
of the marketing and the storyaround it is really funny
and I can make it seemreally entertaining.
But b I'm obsessed with like figuring out
why videos are performing certain ways
and that keeps me driven.
And even though it's somethingthat's like very out of scope
of the traditional stuff Ido with my agency, I do it
(17:04):
'cause it like truly brings mejoy to pack at the algorithm.
Like, you know, from afirst person point of view,
which is super fun.
Um, but you know,
I could easily just say,oh, that's out of scope.
Like, I'm not gonna do that. But I took it
because I genuinely enjoy working on it
and I align with the missionand the content strategy.
But I've had other peoplewhere it's like, you know,
(17:26):
we're just gonna like do these things.
You're gonna do it the way we wanna do it.
And I really like enteringinto places where I can,
I know I can add some sort of value.
Um, and so I've also learned how
to be a little bit more selective.
'cause you know, time is something that's important. So
- I really appreciate that yousolved a problem for yourself
(17:49):
that I think a lot ofother people, uh, don't,
uh, find early, right?
That heuristic of where amI willing to be flexible?
Where do I need to hold the line?
Where am I willing to try something new
and where do I need to stickto with what's worked for me?
I think is a a you know, it's a heuristic
that can sometimes takeyears to figure out.
Was that something that you, you mentioned
before you picked up some ofthose skills at Northwestern.
(18:11):
Um, was there a particularclub or a particular activity?
And again, this is me justshouting out our alma mater
'cause I still bleedpurple for them, I promise.
But is there, was theresomething there that helped sort
of educate you in that direction
and help give you thatsense of foundation to, to
to build on top of for that?
- Yeah, I think literally everything
that happened my sophomore year
(18:32):
and junior year kind of forcedme to grow up a little bit.
Um, so there's like a coupledifferent storylines that have
that are happening all at once.
The first is I joined a sorority,
sororities have their own social dynamics.
I was not in the in-groupof the sorority, so I kind
of existed on the fringe,which I had to grapple with.
(18:52):
I had to learn about FOMO
and how to get over fear of missing out.
I had to learn, you know, how
to interact in different social
scenes that I wasn't used to.
I didn't go to a frat party until, okay,
Northwestern will hate me saying this,
but spring of 2021,
which is like when thingswere just opening up,
that's when I went to my first frat party.
These people who I hadbeen joining a sorority
(19:14):
with had been going since the fall.
Again, Northwestern won'tlike that 'cause of COVID,
but I was just very on the outside of it
and I had to emotionallydeal with, do I try to fit in
and like align myself with what a lot
of my other friends arethinking at this time,
which is like, what social scene are we in
and how can we socialclimb at Northwestern
(19:35):
or do I really tap intolike what my desires are
in getting out of the college experience?
At the same time I'm in thisinvestment banking club where,
which I joined for a couple reasons.
One, my freshman year theyhad sold me this narrative
that I would learn about venture capital.
And the only way to get intoventure capital according
(19:56):
to them, was to do investment banking,
which is a complete lie as someone
who got a VC internship my junior year
and also turned down said return offer
to pursue everything else I wanna do.
Um, I had joined it 'causeI was sold on a narrative.
Um, I joined this club was probably one
(20:16):
of the most emotionallydegrading experiences
I've ever been a part of.
I was constantly toldI wasn't good enough,
I was constantly told Iwas never gonna get a job,
I was never going to get,be able to pursue my dreams.
And after the acquisition,I fully called the president
and I said, Hey,company's gotten acquired,
have killer internshipin New York doing exactly
(20:37):
what I wanna do, which wasthis venture studio run
by Michael Loeb, which was super cool.
Um, and I had also received afellowship from Northwestern
called the Little Joe VenturesFellowship, which they, this,
um, donor gave me $5,000
to work on any idea
and pursue professional development
(20:57):
opportunities in entrepreneurship.
So I used that to goto South by Southwest.
Um, and there's anothercomponent of this too
that was a life coaching component.
Um, and the guy told me,
you will never get into therooms you ever wanna be in
and proud to say I proved him wrong.
So, um, I'm having all
of this stuff happen my sophomore year
around social sceneprofessional pressures.
(21:19):
And this fellowship kindof came in my junior year
and save me a little bit.
So I had a life coachfor two years basically
through this program that helpsme learn more about myself,
learn why I was like feeling certain ways
and reacting in certain waysto the situations around me.
And this life coach alsoultimately helps me make the
(21:41):
decision around whatI'm doing now post grad,
which is building my agency.
Um, but to be able tohave someone, you know,
really conceptualizethings was so helpful.
Um, it wasn't therapy
because I feel like for me,
therapy is just someone likevalidating your feelings
(22:01):
for me, I really needed someoneto provide me frameworks
and like a way for self-improvement
and a way to understand whymy brain is working completely
different than the peers around me.
And that's exactly what I got out of it.
Um, and so with her help, I was able
to learn how to set boundaries.
I was able to kind of loosen up a bit
and respectfully learn not to give
(22:23):
an f about anything like that book.
Yeah, that book. Basically Ilearned all of that from her.
Um, and the last thing Ilearned was really just how
to like, treat myselfnicely and like be ambitious
and not be afraid to pursue what I want
and to kind of manifest the life I want.
(22:47):
And I know manifesting is likea super like wooy wooy topic,
but I'm convinced a lot ofthe things that I have done,
particularly in the last year have been
because I've followedsome sort of manifesting.
I've actively put myself in the rooms
that I've wanted to be in.
I've prepared myself for serendipity
and I've just beencompletely unafraid to pursue
(23:10):
what I want, which is really hard
to do in a college setting.
- A hundred percent. Uh, you'llfind no pushback from me on
the concept of manifesting.
I am married to somebody whois, uh, an expert in astrology
and tarot and human designand also has a Wharton MBA.
So I think these things cancoexist together beautifully and
and I would fully supportthat if that strategy works
(23:32):
for you as it clearly has.
Keep at it. No questions here.
Um, I I wanna take a step back though
and really, uh, pull a thread, uh, about
what you just shared andthank you for that by the way.
Yeah. It's not easy to talk,
talk about times when peopleare slamming doors in your
faces and in particular, you know, not
that my experience atNorthwestern was a hundred percent
lovey-dovey rainbows andsunshine and unicorns,
(23:54):
but like to hear thatsomebody was proactively, uh,
telling you you'll never succeed.
Uh, I don't think we should do it,
but it makes me want toname shame somebody, right?
Like that's, you know,particularly at a time when we're
so much more cognizant of thework that we're all having
to do, whether as the peoplewho need to be, you know,
given a little bit more equity in life
(24:15):
or those that need to do the lifting up
because we've had that privilege,
it really frustrates me to hear that.
And I'm sorry that you wentthrough that experience
on the plus side, if there issuch a thing, what a great way
for you to be able to definefor yourself your direction,
uh, your um, value as you'rebringing it to the table.
And, and you know, to beable to nanny, nanny boo boo
(24:36):
that guy when clearly you've found success
and he's probably still at his, uh,
Goldman internship hopingthat somebody notices him.
Do you, do you keep a list of people
that you're gonna like callout one day when you're like,
you know, ruler of the world?I would, I'm just saying
- I don't, I sometimes I like send my
friends little jokes about it.
Like I have two very closefriends who are in on everything.
(24:59):
Um, but I will say likeresilience is something
that I think my parents instilled on
in me in a very young age.
I was a competitive figure skater.
So if you fall on something,you get back up and try again.
In high school faced sort ofsimilar situations, in terms
of being like put down
or, you know, deniedcertain opportunities.
(25:19):
And so at some point Ijust realized like, no,
the only person that willlook out for you is yourself.
And so if you're not activelyputting yourself in the spaces
you wanna be in, you're just
putting yourself at a disadvantage.
And you know, I, it's funny, I, I would,
I challenged myself I think this year
and even junior year tolike send a certain amount
(25:41):
of cold emails every day
and just like seek outconversations that I wanted to have,
you know, read an articleand then like DM the author
and be like, Hey, I loved this.
Let's chat. 'cause a numberof times that's worked
and helping me learn new things.
A which I think embracingevery conversation
with curiosity is the numberone tip I have for just a,
(26:03):
advancing yourself.
But b, building genuineconnections with people.
Um, and then the second thingtoo is like I've picked up a
lot of mentors just byputting myself out there.
Um, the person who I had DMDabout the article is now we're,
we now text like almost monthly.
He is really invested in my success.
(26:25):
He intros me to lots of people,which is really helpful.
Um, and I just, you know, share
what I'm learning being young
and I guess on the groundin a sense 'cause I am Gen Z
and he's trying to learn alot more about Gen Z stuff.
So I'm glad I can be mutual.
I'm glad we have likea mutually beneficial
relationship going
on.- .
Let's shift gears a little bit.
You talked earlier about datascience being a core part of
(26:47):
what you were doing, not only at a MA
but broadly what you bring to the table
as part of your agency.
Now can you take me throughsort of if I'm a new creator
and I'm getting started,what are the factors in terms
of my analytics and the metricsthat I should be tracking
and what are the things I should be paying
the most attention to?
Is it follower count
or is it something else that'sperhaps a little bit more
(27:08):
buried within my dashboard?
- So the first thing is youprobably wanna have a sense
of direction on where you wanna go.
Are you creating for fun?
Are you creating 'causeyou wanna make money?
Are you creating to getyourself to another goal?
Um, something that a lot ofmanagers I've talked to do
with their talent, and I think regardless
of whether you have amanager, a creator should do
(27:31):
is set a north star, set some goals.
Um, the metrics that Ilike to pay attention to,
defer on platform and also defer on size.
And again, the goal, likeif you wanna grow followers,
you obviously need to payattention to each individual piece
of content and how it's performing.
Not only the views, butthe likes, the comments,
(27:53):
and especially on Instagram, the shares.
Because as the Instagram, CEO has said,
the shares are a very bigfactor in the algorithm
and pushing your short formcontent onto the discover feed.
Now on TikTok it's a little bit more,
at least in my experience ofan oddball, you'll see a lot
of things happen and you're just like,
(28:15):
I'm still constantlytrying to reverse engineer
what is going on with my content.
Um, I've noticed when I postsomething particularly on the
DU account, it'll get,
if it gets like a really quicknumber, quick number of views
to favorites, it performs really well.
The video gets lots of views, um, versus
(28:38):
another video I literally justposted an hour ago is having
this very slow burn to 200,but I know it'll surpass 200
because I'm looking atlike the completion rate
and the five second retention.
Um, so there are lots ofnumbers you can pay attention
to depending on whatyou want to accomplish.
Um, but if I'm setting goals
(28:58):
and I wanna build a moresustainable career as a creator,
the thing I would pay themost attention to is views.
Do not care about follower count.
I can tell you from a brandside, as someone that's working
with eight or nine brands right now
and sourcing creators,I could care less about
how many followers you have.
What I care about is you hitting a
consistent number of views.
(29:20):
And so the way that you cankind of game the views is,
again, as I said on Instagram,the likes, the comments,
the shares optimizing for that.
But on TikTok it isreally paying attention
to those retention numbers
and those video completion numbers
because what you can do with
that information is change your storyline.
So as you become a bitof a bigger creator,
(29:42):
and this is what we would doat AMA two, we really start
to pay attention to the narrative
composition of your videos.
So what I mean by that islike your hook, your body
and your call to action.
Um, and we do this withbrands two, we experiment
with different hooks, we experiment
with different storylines,and we just experiment
with different, you know,
(30:02):
what's the action you're gonna take?
Are you going to click a linkin the bio right now what's
really popular is commenting on the post
and then an automatic DMbeing sent to your Instagram.
Um, and so really playing around with
how your videos are composed
and then you can get immediatefeedback on that data.
On TikTok in particular,because of the retention
(30:23):
and the percentage of people
that complete your video metrics,
I am manifesting Instagramads this as well.
I think it would be sohelpful for a lot of creators.
Um, but even on YouTube,I work with one creator
in particular, um,
and I've taught her howto game her narratives so
that she increasesretention on her videos,
(30:44):
increases like averagewatch time basically.
And what we've done is she's a figure
skater just like I was.
What we've done is we've,
I've told her you'regonna do your first part
of your video part figure skating,
the middle part your life,the end figure skating.
And I wanna see how like howthis figure skating first part
(31:06):
of your video performs.
How much figure skating do weneed in your videos for them
to reach the audience you wantand to get that watch time
and ultimately get more money
because YouTube pays out pretty well.
Um, and then the last thingI'll say too, on the data front,
particularly for creatorsis you should pay attention
(31:27):
to like the different buckets of content
and how they're performing.
So if I'm gonna do a self dataaudit on myself as a creator,
I wanna go through and kind of put all
of my content into different buckets.
Now that can be what is thiscontent going to accomplish?
What's the theme of this content?
Um, who am I collaborating with?
(31:48):
If you collaborate with a lot of people,
like definitely do that too.
And then I would run an analysisof like, likes, comments,
views, and also shares obviously , um,
and figure out whichbuckets are top performing.
I would create more contentin that top performing bucket
and then like a, a like two to one ratio.
(32:08):
So you know, a two thirds
of your content should bethe content that works.
And then the other thirdshould be experiments.
And I would do this self dataaudit, you know, every month
or every quarter and just seelike what is performing well.
And if you wanna get really, really like
micro like microscopicscale on it, you know,
paying attention to like, what am I
saying in the first three seconds?
(32:30):
How long are my captions?That's what I do .
So you can talk to me about that.
Um, but that also, like, thereare so many little things too
that can impact theperformance of a video,
but at a surface level, justpay attention to the trends.
You know, if you'reseeing a lot of variation,
take a step back, look atyour data, do a little bit
of a qualitative analysis of it
(32:52):
and that should help you reset.
- So much to think abouthere. I love all of this.
I'm taking copious notes, notjust for myself selfishly,
but also because I want to come back
to some of these points later.
I really appreciate that you're
talking about the nitty gritty.
I think a lot of times whenpeople talk about, you know,
what can you do to, toreally think holistically,
they stay very at the strategic level.
Well you need to be thinking about X
(33:13):
or you know, you say payattention to the trends,
but you're also givingvery specific examples.
I would never think about how much
of figure skating at the front
of a video will affect the completion
rate for the whole of a short.
Uh, I'm curious though,does this analysis translate
as well to long form content?
'cause it sounds likeyou're pretty focused
on short form content.
(33:35):
- The figure skating analysiswas for long form content .
- Oh, great. Totally misunderstoodthat. That's even better.
Okay. I'm thinking itwas like a 62nd short.
Yeah, and we're just trying tosee how much we need upfront
before we get people into the short.
- Well, we do that, I do that with a lot
of the brand content on theshort form stuff of like,
let's experiment what'sat the front actually,
like I've come up with a wayto build a content machine
(33:57):
with UGC creators whereI have them do different
video com, like differentcompositions of hooks.
So whether that's askit, talking to camera,
something aesthetic,like a still shot, um,
and testing the retentionspecifically, you can get
that data from TikTok
and I don't know if youmaybe on shorts too,
not on Instagram, I know that for sure.
(34:19):
But the long formnarrative composition, like
that was a really corething we did at a MA
was literally telling creators, you need
to create three individual storylines.
You're gonna place them,
we're gonna give youadvice based on, you know,
your past data on whereyou place those storylines,
and then we'll measure andsee if that's actually going
to impact anything.
(34:39):
At the end of the day, platformscare about keeping people
on their platform, right?
So if they see that peopleare finishing videos
or watching for a reallylong time, they're going
to reward you for that byeither A, paying you out,
or B, prioritizing yourcontent in their algorithm.
- How do I know that thealgorithm wants to work for me?
(35:01):
Can I just say that like oneof the, even as somebody on the
inside at meta, right, it is ablack box in terms of knowing
what works, what doesn't.
You're providing some reallygreat examples of some
of the tactical things you can do,
but I'm not sure thatlike at a higher level, I,
I can trust sometimes that theplatform wants me to stay on.
It just seems like, you know,there's this constant tension
(35:23):
of, uh, we want more content as much
as we want optimized content.
So I guess my question for you is, at
what point is it more valuable
to just try new thingsstraight outta the box versus
optimizing an existingdirection you've been pursuing?
- That makes sense.That's a loaded question
because I too have, again,
(35:43):
every single learning I'vedone has been from the outside,
it's been me staring at lots of numbers
and trying to figure it out. Um, if you,
- You don't have a magic answerfor me, um, now that hurts.
- I'm sorry. But here'swhat I can tell you.
The thing that matters themost in building your content
strategy from the getgo is testing different
(36:04):
video composition.
So when building Turbo Learnsinfluencer marketing campaign,
we really started withtrying to figure out
how are people going to listen
to the information we'regoing to present to them.
So I didn't want to,
you never wanna liketest your message first.
You wanna test the wayyour message is presented
because you wanna figure outhow people are going to listen
(36:27):
and engage with you.
So if you're really earlyon your content journey,
do not be afraid
to change the way you'representing your content.
Whether that's talking tocamera, doing something aesthetic
and like still shots, doinga compilation of cl clips.
I, my favorite new contentstyle, I call it yapping,
where you literally just talkto the camera, very stream
(36:50):
of thought, really goodfor conversion by the way,
like this is a new hack.
Um, but really exp like if you're early
and you don't have somethingsuper set in stone, experiment
with the way you'representing your content.
And then once you figure outthe way people like to see you,
then you can play aroundwith like the narratives,
the messaging, you know, yourpersonal identity in a sense.
(37:13):
Now if you've kind of hit aplateau, you're like maybe mid
you're, maybe you're in thisfor like a little bit longer
than just starting out, I like to say, um,
it can be really difficult,the idea of like having
to pivot your content, um,trying to pivot to a different
way you're, you'representing your information.
(37:34):
I would say though that ifyour content is plateauing,
it's probably a presentation issue.
It's not a narrative issue,it's a presentation problem.
Something in the, something you're not,
like retaining your audience in the
way that you usually are.
You know, you're, it's not
that you're notinteresting anymore, right?
It's just the way that you'retalking about yourself isn't
hitting the audiencethe same way it used to.
(37:58):
Um, I remember sittingdown with one of the
creators I worked withon a Bama Rush campaign,
and she was like, I reallywanna have my own podcast.
Like that is my goal.
And she had been postingall of these get ready
with me videos, you know,talking about Bama Rush,
and I sat her down and Iwas like, if you want to get
to this podcasting goal,we're gonna have to slowly,
(38:19):
you're gonna have to slowlytreat yourself like a podcaster.
You're gonna have to slowlyopen up, be vulnerable, yak
to the camera, that kind of thing.
Um, and so I think when you're,
you're hitting those plateaus,like again, take a step back,
maybe reanalyze yourdata for a little bit,
but a majority of the timeit's just a composition problem
(38:40):
and you'll just have to changethe style in which you're
presenting what you're presenting.
- Can I tell you that issuch a refreshing take
because so many times whenI ask questions like this,
I get a response that'smostly focused on thumbnail
or title as it pertains to,you know, YouTube or on TikTok.
You know, it's gotta be abig boisterous hook at the
(39:01):
beginning if you're gonna expect people
to last more than three seconds
and a, a perspective that says
you're probably saying somethinginteresting, but the format
and the way in which youvisually present it is just not
landing with the rightaudience is so much more sane
and so much less.
Um, there's a term in gamingcalled Min Maxing, right?
(39:23):
I put in the, you know, I tryto maximize one attribute so
that I, you know, so that I,I get the most value out of it
and I'm minimizing the thingsI don't care about as much.
And so much effort seems tobe in min maxing that concept
of like your thumbnail
or the beginning of yourvideo as this boisterous Mr.
Beast esque kind of thing.I love the idea of yapping.
I yap all the time. I love yapping.
In fact, my parents have, right,
(39:44):
my parents have accusedme of that for years.
Why wouldn't I just put thaton film? Um, I love that.
Uh, I, I'm really excited tosee, you know, for example,
how her podcast turns out
or you know, how, you know, other
of your clients sort of adjust to this.
Um, I, I don't wannamake this about myself,
but I do want to say thatlike so much of what you're,
(40:05):
you're telling me now is teaching me
and I'm taking again, fervent notes.
I hope everybody who's listening is too.
Um, is there something inthe world of podcasting
that you're seeing that works really well
beyond talking straight to camera?
Because my challenge rightnow is I've got a, a couple
of people who are reallydeeply invested as an audience,
but I haven't foundthe version of this yet
(40:25):
that communicates to a broader audience.
And maybe the answer is more,you know, long form videos
where I'm talking straight to camera.
Maybe the, the solutionis more short form content
that isn't AI generated,
but that I'm just, youknow, I had a conversation
with Lauren, here's three quick things
I learned from that conversation.
Like I, you know, Idon't know where to start
that exploration.
Do you have any thoughts there?
(40:47):
- Pod first off, podcasting,
social media is probablythe most difficult thing
because cool, everyone sees
- Lots of podcasts.
Well, I'm in that high. Alright.
- I will say, at least for me as a viewer
and the content I see performing well, um,
I've been watching a lot oflike planet, the bar stool,
like Planet Brie, graceO'Malley, Brianna Chicken Fry.
(41:09):
I think they do a really good job
because it, it's so, I mean, unlike this,
it's like in person,so it's really relaxed.
The banter is really played up in the way
that the content is clipped.
Um, and so that makes it alittle bit more conversational,
feels a little bit more yappy, I guess, .
(41:29):
Um, and ultimately I thinkit's why it performs well
beyond just the fact that like,
that account has so many followers.
Um, but then you see, youknow, the kind of podcasts
that are targeted towardsentrepreneurship, rows, I like
to call them, where it'sagain, you know, headphones,
mic set, et cetera, feels very,very high production high.
(41:52):
And like, I do think productionquality does play a role in
how podcasting videos do perform.
Um, but to me it's, it,it feels like the way
that those video, I I thinka lot of it comes down
to the way those videos are cut.
So, you know, sometimes they'll start off
with the most important learning
(42:12):
and then they will hathey will cut back to
that person telling the whole story.
Um, and that's a compositionthing you can play around
with is like, do I sharethe first important tidbit
and then do the whole long thing?
Um, but yeah, I would also,I think for you personally,
I would play around with the split screen.
So is there me
(42:34):
and you in the same frame, um, on it?
I don't know if that'sgonna work for every clip
unfortunately of this,but like, that's an idea.
Um, and then if you ever dodo in person stuff like the ca
keeping it casual, keepinglike the banter I guess in a
sense can be really engaging too,
especially on short form content.
Um, but on the long formside of things, I mean,
(42:57):
it's just havinginteresting conversations.
I don't know how many peopleare actually watching a YouTube
video podcast rather thanjust listening to it.
Um, but podcast
distribution is like thehardest thing to hack.
So thoughts and prayers to
you,- .
Well that, that feelslike a perfect end note.
(43:19):
Um, Lauren, this has been amazing.
The, the one last thingI want to touch on, uh,
before we go is what isthe next step for you?
What is the next thing you'reaiming for in your growth?
Uh, you know, the next, uh, you know, the,
the next high point for your,
your agency, where do you want to go next?
(43:39):
- For sure. So yeah, I have my own agency,
which is super exciting.
Um, it's a data-driven socialstudio, so very focused on,
again, figuring out thatcomposition, figuring out
that narrative, and justcreating enough content to test
and collect data and helpbrands build a viral playbook,
whether that's on the organic front
or the influencer marketing front.
(44:01):
I also help creators withit too, which is always fun
because I, I think at somepoint I do wanna get back into
focusing on creators andfocusing on helping creators grow
because it is so exciting to see
people really owning their narrative
and trying to buildsomething for themselves.
(44:24):
Um, every year I set somesort of like optimization
that I wanna go for in the year,
and I think this year'soptimization has been
optimized fulfillment.
And so I'm really focused onfiguring out, you know, now
that I'm just graduatedcollege, figuring out like
what it does that keeps mefulfilled and keeps me happy
and something that I feel really fulfilled
(44:44):
doing is helping others.
So that's why I created a, an agency
and a service-based business.
Um, but, you know, there are
so many things I wanna accomplish
and I'm, I'm very much so thekind of person that's going
to go with the flow andfeel like, you know,
trust my gut on a lot ofthe decisions that I make,
but also constantly knowing my worth
(45:06):
and constantly staying grounded in,
you know, what I've accomplished
and what I want to accomplish.
I hate the question oflike, what do you wanna do?
Where do you see yourself in five years?
Because honestly, I have no idea.
I am just started this, Ihopefully this still, like,
hopefully I pebbles still exists
in the next five years ifit hasn't been acquired yet,
(45:30):
but if it has, that's great.
I'll build something else. Um,
but at the end of the day,I just wanna keep continuing
to help creators and brandshack this big black box known
as social media platforms.
- I love it. Lauren, this hasbeen a tremendous pleasure.
Thank you so much for your time.
(45:50):
If folks wanna follow up with you directly
or maybe they wanna engageyour services at Pebble,
uh, where do you wanna send them?
Where's the right spot foryou to engage with folks?
- You can hit me up onLinkedIn or Twitter.
Uh, that's probably the two best ways.
Um, we, again, it's making a website.
We'll see if I'll, I'llactually let you know
if it's up by this point.
(46:11):
Great. The website is with Pebble xyz.
I bought the domain, I justneed to actually build it.
Um, but yeah, I write, I alsowrite a lot on Twitter too.
I'm trying to get betteron LinkedIn, so, um,
definitely can check me out there.
- Amazing. Lauren Huttner,thank you so much.
- Thank you .
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