The Value of Not Giving Up [Pearl Gabel]

"I've been asked to speak to groups to try to explain [the voice of @NJGov]. I tie in the personality to a sort of bullied kid. A lot of people have this experience... And New Jersey is a bullied kid."

Leading up to and during the COVID-19 Pandemic, many different US government agencies took to social media to assuage, educate, and help constituents cut through the noise and deliver direct, meaningful help during trying times. @NJGov was a large part of that... along with a heaping side of Jersey personality. 

Chief architect of this unique voice was Pearl Gabel, former digital director for the State of New Jersey, and a former journalist/videographer turned marketing strategist. Pearl generously sat down with me to discuss her passion for all things Jersey, her post-government career path, and the challenges of building your own brand name when you've spent so much time doing it for others.

You can find Pearl on social media platforms @PearlGabel, and reach out to her directly through her current agency, http://moxie-strategies.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
- Your work for the NewJersey government on Twitter,
basically, uh, smacking down people
who were saying dumb things.
That's, that's how I choose to interpret
- It.
The most notorious, the thing
that put nj gov on the mapwas the response of your mom
to, to a specific tweet.
And I think a lot of it is,
is like confidence in your ownself and in your own brand.

(00:23):
- And to, to know thatthere are folks out there
who find good teammates,
who really build somethingtruly differentiated,
I think is, is remarkable. I mean,
- We were passing, you know,minimum wage laws, equity laws,
and, and, and we were justsort of like doing things
that were empowering to people,that were unifying to folks.

(00:43):
I think that was a really big part of it.
- Welcome to BuildingValue. I'm Jason Nellis.
You know, it's hard enoughbuilding a brand when it's a
private business, even harderwhen it's a public business.
But when it represents a government
and a current administration
with specific legislative agendas,
you are navigating a minefield.
I don't think there'sa nice way to put that,

(01:05):
but hopefully today'sconversation will show you
that not only can younavigate that minefield,
you can do some reallyremarkable stuff with it.
My guest today is PearlGabel, who from 2018
to 2021 ran the New JerseyPublic Government Twitter
account, along with her creative partner,
Megan Pearl built thisaccount from scratch
and became one of the leading voices
of the last few years insocial media and government.

(01:28):
In our conversation, Pearl explains
how they started building a unique
voice specific to New Jersey.
And I think when we allthink of Jersey, we know what
that specific voice might sound like.
But more importantly, shetalked about how she used
that swell of social support to advocate
and promote the agenda ofthe then New Jersey Governor.
And we also talked about howdifficult it can be when you've
built somebody else's brand

(01:48):
to navigate those waters on your own
and do the thing for
yourself that you'vebeen doing for others.
Because sometimes it forces you to listen
to your own voice over andover again on a podcast.
And it can be really grading.
Not that I have any experience with that.
Let me know what youthink of today's podcast.
Leave a review, a comment alike, if you loved it, share it
with somebody and subscribe.

(02:09):
Please do those things'cause they really do help.
And here is Pearl Gabel,the voice of @NJGov
Pearl, thanks so much forjoining. How are you doing today?
- I'm great. I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you, Jason. Well,
- It's my pleasure.
I'm glad you're excited.This will be fun. I am.
I wanna start with theobvious thing, which is that,

(02:31):
that you know, of your bodyof work, I think the one
that is most public, the thingthat was pointed out to me
by our mutual friendNathan Ach, is your work
for the New Jersey government on Twitter.
Uh, basically, uh, smacking down people
who were saying dumb things.
That's, that's how Ichoose to interpret it.
Uh, yes, back and forth .
Um, you know, one of the thingsthat's always interesting

(02:54):
to me when I, when I talk topeople is, is their background
and how they ended up getting into
the role they're known for.
Can you gimme a little bit of your history
and sort of how you ended up working for,
uh, the New Jersey government?
- Well, first of all, thanks Jason.
That's how we roll in New Jersey.
We, uh, we smack down thehaters as a general rule.
Um, you know, I, Idefinitely did not plan to,

(03:18):
to be sort of that, have the opportunity
to be that voice of New Jersey.
But, um, but I came into it
through like just a seriesof many career changes, all
of all of it, starting with communication.
So when I was, when I was younger
in high school, I, I loved poetry.
I kind of evolved that into journalism.

(03:40):
I studied journalism.
I, uh, then sort ofbecame a photojournalist
after becoming passionateabout photography.
Um, sort of swing swung
that into being a staffphotographer at the Daily News in
New York where I cut my teeth.
Uh, I would say it was one

(04:02):
of those like fundamentalcareer experiences
where I was sort of exposed toeveryone and, and everything.
Um, and it was, it was quite brutal.
And then, uh, worked, workedfor a variety of places.
Learned video, video is a,it was a extraordinary way
to, a bridge to kind ofputting all the skills

(04:25):
of like writing and visual and, and,
and narrative together.
I became the director of videofor the City of New York.
And then from from there, um,
I went into the role asdigital director for the state
of New Jersey, which was running

(04:45):
all the social media accounts,you know, for the governor.
The First lady. There was no state
of New Jersey account at that time.
But since I had, had, I hadbeen at the city of New York
where they had a city ofNew York dedicated page,
I thought New Jersey probably needed one.
Um, you know, all ofthis was like, was sort

(05:06):
of like this evolution of like putting all
of these skills togetherfrom like a decade plus of,
of jobs that were seemingly kind
of not even connected to each other.
You know, you're, you're a writer
and then you're a photographer,
and then you're a video producer,
and then like, who are you?
Like what are you, what are you doing?

(05:26):
Like, what's your purpose here? Yeah. And
- You're a Swiss Army knife?
- I'm a Swiss Army knife. Yeah.
I mean, I'm, I'm like editing video.
I'm, I'm sure traveling,I'm taking combat classes,
combat photography classes.
Like what am I doing? Who am I? Who am I?
Um, social media is prettymuch like this perfect
combination of everything as well.

(05:47):
Um, it, it requires like theSwiss Army knife, you know,
my, my own personal politicsaside, I really, really,
I thought GovernorMurphy was, was fantastic
because he was really opento a lot of different things.
Um, it's, it was one of those politicians
and offices that were like, you know,

(06:08):
like a little bit more, less
hierarchical, more conversational.
So, you know, like thefirst thing, you know,
everybody has everybody's phone number.
We're all collaborating
and we say, when I, when I, you know,
when I say I wanna do anaccount, it's like, okay,
do an account, you know?
And, uh, and yeah, it was, it was fun
and it was a really natural experience.

(06:30):
And that was 2018, January,2018, the inauguration
and the previous governor,Chris Christie, um,
had taken his socialmedia accounts with him.
Yeah. Like a thief in the night, which,
- You know, as if you took them over
a, a certain bridge Yeah.
Of some sort. Gave Yeah, perhaps

(06:51):
- So you took them over acertain bridge, you know,
which is, is, you know, itdoesn't generally happen in,
in government because the,since the accounts are, are run
by government appointments or, or workers.
You, you, you can't reallytake them, but he did.
So we started from zero,um, on, on everything.
And that was a great experiment as well.
- Talk me through then, howyou build that strategy.

(07:14):
What experiments wereyou thinking through?
You know, what, what landed you on that?
Uh, really unique and, and,and very New Jersey voice.
- You know, I, I livedoutside of New Jersey for, uh,
for more than a decadebefore moving back in 2018.
Um, and, you know, peoplemade fun of New Jersey.

(07:35):
You know, people ask, where are you from?
You know, I say New Jersey,
and you hear a lot ofthings, you know, it's,
it's like the armpit of America.
It's like, I'm, I'm sorry,you're from New Jersey.
You know, it's, it's, it's fun.
You're, you're an underdog a little bit.
You almost, so I, I learned,I learned in my time
away from the state that,um, how to defend the state.

(07:58):
And by the way, it's, it's easyto, it's easy to, it's kind.
It's a lovely, it's a lovely place.
I mean, there's so muchdiversity of like geography,
diversity of people, you know,
the at the notorious attitude is fun.
Mm-Hmm. . And, um,
and so, you know, when I wasthinking about like, who would
a New Jersey voice be, I kindof already had it in my head,

(08:21):
which was, you know,which was like the sort
of like underdog punching up.
I did think a lot about oneof my brothers in that voice.
He is like a real jersey guy.
Uh, I had a great partnerin crime, which was, uh,
which was Megan Coin,who was sort of like the,
my Gen Z assistant

(08:42):
who was really likeanother Swiss Army knife,
really talented individual.
Um, it's a great combinationof like being an old millennial
plus like a younger, kind of like more
online person.
It was like a, it's, it'ssort of like a nice balance
that, that we found.

(09:02):
And, uh, and, you know, that was great.
You know, as, as you all know,I think you, you have a lot
of listeners who are content creators
or who work in this space.
And, um, like, it's, it'snot something that you,
I mean, it's hard to do this alone.
Like, it's really to have a team

(09:23):
and to have a team of like,of like a balanced talents
and stuff like that isso, is so important.
And that was really, and you get lucky.
Often, often you getlucky not not choosing it.
So I, I definitely got lucky with that.
- Well, I, I really appreciateyou calling that out.
'cause I think for a lotof folks, content creation,
whether it's for marketing purposes

(09:45):
or your own, you know, edification,it's a lonely endeavor.
And to, to know thatthere are folks out there
who find good teammates,
who really build somethingtruly differentiated,
I think is, is remarkable.
Um, and I love too that,that when you, you know,
you talk about anunderdog punching up, like
what a perfect way to encapsulatethe voice of New Jersey.

(10:05):
I, um, my,
my grandparents are fromRandolph outside of Morristown.
One of my best friends is from Summit.
Um, you know, I, I have a, a
whenever I hear, uh, you know, a proper
New Jersey local start
to go off on a tangent about something,
that's exactly the voice I hear.
Um, and for you to beable to translate that
so perfectly into Twitter, whichis a constant fight, right?

(10:28):
I mean, back in the day,particularly when it was still kind
of fun, um, maybe not
so much now these days, I'm sad to say.
But, you know, back,
back then when there wasa lot more sort of, um,
interactive community, I think,than, than, you know, than
maybe exists now, you, you,you displayed such a sense of,
uh, fun and joy in all of that, right?

(10:49):
It wasn't meant to be mean.
You weren't trying to pushback on, on, you know, people
who were talking down to Jersey.
You were just trying to, it,it felt to me, at least on the
outside, um, it felt like, you know,
you were just having fun and
hopefully everybody else was too.
And you just had a veryspecific point of view about it.
Um, is that how you remember the time?
Am I reading sort ofyour, your interpretation
of those times and runningthose accounts the same way?

(11:11):
- That is so interesting
because I, I just thought of something
that could be the explanation for it all.
And you, you've kind of unearthed it.
When I was moving down to NewJersey, this was like a really
enormous transition for me.
I just, I, I'd been through alot in New York. I was single.

(11:32):
Um, I was, I was sort of on my own.
I was, I was fairly isolated.
And I moved down to this, youknow, I had gotten that job
and I moved down to thissmall town in New Jersey,
and I was like, I was like, Iwanted to like, begin again.

(11:53):
I wanted to like, refresh again.
I didn't know what was coming.
And, um, and like during thetime of like, starting up
that account and like, andsort of making it work and,
and sort of doing, doingthis good work here
and transitioning careers, allof that was during the time
of like a couple yearsof me getting, getting

(12:16):
settled, working through theisolation, meeting my partner
who would become my husband,who would become the father
of my son.
Um, like it was kind of this, this journey
of like self, it was self,a journey of self discovery,
a journey of self, like,of who I was, where I was,

(12:41):
um, at the exact time of doing this work.
And I never even consideredthat that might be .
I mean, it sounds silly now.'cause it, it would make sense.
I never considered that, thatwould be like an influence
of do, of doing this New Jersey.
Kind of like settling intolike, becoming, becoming myself,

(13:05):
becoming like, like creatinglike this sort of alter ego Id
as I went along.
Finding that confidence,finding a certain confidence
that I never had.
I mean, I had, I had sucha lifetime of professional,
I had a, I had a prettydifficult professional career.
I definitely was like, put down,
I felt put down a bunch in a lot of jobs.

(13:25):
I felt like I couldn'tquite get the opportunities
to do the things thatI really wanted to do.
So it was always likepounding at pounding at doors
and pounding on ceilings.
This was kind of like a renaissance
or something, a mini renaissance.
I don't want, it wasn'tlike Michelangelo here,

(13:45):
this was like the freaking, you know,
New Jersey Turnpike of Renaissance. No,
- No, but Well,
but it was still, yeah, I mean,I think what, what you're,
you're calling out here was that you had
a differentiated kind of space, maybe
that's not the right word, buta, a kind of, uh, blank slate
to, to really make your own.

(14:05):
And, you know, I thinksometimes some people take that
and they imprint all oftheir challenges onto it,
and sometimes they take those challenges
and turn them into somethinginteresting and enjoyable
and relatable and funny
and also, you know, alittle bit SmackDown,
but in a lighthearted way.
Um, and that's, that's kindof what I read from that.
I mean, I, I followed,um, again, you know,

(14:27):
I was was following ourfriend Nathan, who ran stake.
And, you know, he andI had become friendly
and he pointed me to a bunchof folks, you were among them.
And, uh, you know, for me, I,I gotta be honest, at first,
I thought for a brief moment,
I think the first timeI pulled up the account,
I thought it was a parody account
because it was just so sharply jersey.
It had that very east coast, you know,
and very, you know, like,you know, new York's little,

(14:50):
little brother kind of approach,
but also in a way that made me feel like
this was somebody who really got it.
And I think that's what I, I really
appreciated about what you did.
You really articulated avoice that was specific
to whom you were representing, right?
And, and there is onething about everybody who,
who's from New Jersey, iswhether you're from North Jersey

(15:11):
or south or central, you know,whether you worship at the,
the altar of the Short Hills Mall
or you're, you know, you'rein Newark on your way into the
city, like that, that sharpness.
But that, that comradery behind it is it,
it was perfectly encapsulated by
what you were, what you were creating.
And I think what a great representation

(15:31):
of New Jersey government, right?
We get it. We get the joke.
Forget you guys, let's talkabout the real stuff too.
- There's a couple times I cried,
like in the silliest things,like over, over just feeling
community, like feeling like, like a,
this thing washed overme of like being from

(15:53):
the same place with shared experience
with like a similar identity.
There's something that we're missing.
Let me, let me just back up for a second.
So my, let, my husband is Tunisian,
he's got a strongTunisian identity, right?
There's the food, there's the history.

(16:14):
There's literally, you havelike thousands of years
of your family being from one place.
There's like a rooted arootedness to like your
identity, right?
That like, pretty much most people
in the states are diaspora.

(16:34):
I mean, I'm one you'reprobably one most, right?
Most people are are like this,this sort of like diaspora.
You ask you think about likethis, this I the identity
of like a, being like anAmerican is a, I mean,
you could have a lot ofphilosophical discussions about it,
but there's not, I I mean,I I, I haven't really

(16:56):
felt as strongly about thatas one would about their,
you know, if you were from aplace like Tunisia or from,
or from a place that you've been
through, you know what I mean?
This sort of legacy ancestry.
There was somethingthat I found in, in the,
like embodying this New Jerseyidea that tapped into that.

(17:19):
I mean, from like the, the food to the,
to like the way you talkto like the attitude,
the way you say water, to likethe knowledge of like place
that was like tappinginto that sort of baser
self identifier thing.

(17:39):
I've always wanted, I've alwayslooked for, I think a lot
of people crave, cravethat kind of sense of place
for themselves andidentity for themselves.
- Absolutely. I mean, that'san incredibly universal theme.
The idea of, of connection,of home, of identity.
Um, and,

(18:00):
and to bring all of thathome into a Twitter account.
And, and I another account to, it's not
as if you were solely focusedon Twitter hope, I hope,
but to bring that voice toall of that, what a great way
to also represent thegovernment of the people, right?
I mean, there's something about that
that I think is really interesting
because then you marrythat with, you know,
government initiativesand talking about programs

(18:20):
and really talking aboutthe ways in which, you know,
that administration istrying to lift people up.
Uh, it, it's such a fine needle to thread.
Did it feel that way? Or didit feel, did it feel like it,
you know, it came together more easily
when you started talking about all that.
- I love that you're tyingthat to like the things
that the administration did.
'cause this would prop, thiswould not have worked like that

(18:42):
if, if the, it was anadministration that wasn't like kind
of actively working to uplift people.
I mean, we were passing,you know, minimum wage laws
and like equity equity laws and, and,
and we were just sort of like doing things
that were empowering to people,that were unifying to folks.
Um, I think that was areally big part of it.

(19:06):
Um, and why it was possible.
I mean, it probably was also possible
because I don't have likea specific background in
government or politicalcommunications necessarily.
Uh, so it, there was like the,
a little outsider feelingto it as, as a journalist.

(19:27):
I mean, e ever since thedays of that, I was sort
of like running and gunning,I always used to say.
So, uh, like my knowledge, like sort
of my knowledge base is likewide but not deep, right?
Like I can, I really, I a lotof things just a little bit,
probably podcasters too.
, you kind, you kind of have to be.

(19:48):
Um, so, so yeah, that's, that's something
that was really a partof it when I, I I've,
over the years since Idid that NJ gov thing,
I've been asked to speak to,to folks, uh, similar, uh,
you know, like, not podcasts,
but to, to groups and to things.
Try to explain it. And, um,
I also tie in the personality

(20:11):
to like a sort of bullied kid.
I was, a lot of peoplehave this experience.
I mean, in elementary school I was kind
of like a, a bullied kid.
And a lot of the, a lot of the, and,
and, you know, NewJersey is a bullied kid.
And, and a lot of theresponses that I may have done,
and Megan and I may havedone through NJ gov were like

(20:34):
responses that I wish thatI had done as like a 10,
10-year-old in the, inthe, uh, in gym class
- As a former 10-year-old in gym class
who couldn't throw a ball
or catch to save his life, whosefather reminds him of that.
Pretty much every timethey have a sports related
conversation, I can appreciate that
and how frustrating that must have been,
and the, the joy that thenyou can take those, you know,

(20:57):
several decades worth of wellhoned, you know, responses
and then spew them atidiots on the internet.
I'm a fan. May I just say, did
- You, did you guys haveto do the rope climb?
- Everybody had to do the rope climb.
It was the dumbest exercise. Horrible.
Nobody wanted to do the rope climb.
- I had a nightmareabout that recently. Oh.
Um, I really did.
There, so the, the mostnotorious the thing

(21:18):
that put NJ gov on the map,um, really to start off,
and we, because we'd beendoing it for a while,
but not many people werepaying attention, was, uh,
was the response of your mom to,
to a specific tweet, right?
That was, I mean, people remember that.
'cause it was a governmentaccount saying that,

(21:39):
and it got like, you know, 80something thousand retweets
or something crazy like that.
Um, I mean, that wasdefinitely in that zone.
Like, this is what Iwould respond, I, this is
what my brother would've responded to, to
who let New Jersey have a Twitter account.
- Well, not only that, Ifeel like there were a,

(22:00):
a good couple of deleteyour accounts as well from,
you know, from the opposition
or from, you know, other folks who were,
who were dunking on, you know,Jersey in general, which I,
I always appreciatedbecause I felt the same way.
- Yeah. That was so, it was so fun.
And you know what, like,and like any great project
and any great branding, you know, you have
to leave at some point

(22:21):
and other folks take it over,put on new personalities.
Just keep it, keep it going, you know.
- Was there any initiativethat you worked on,
on the administrative levelthat then you were able
to help really grow or, uh, project
or inspire, you know,followers of, of NJ gov,
uh, through your work?
You know, it was something related

(22:41):
to minimum wages you mentioned earlier,
or perhaps, you know, anew policy that, that, um,
the administration wanted to put out.
- Every time there's a,there's a, an announcement
or there's a, a bill being passed or,
or things are going on isan opportunity for a story.
There's an opportunityto find a narrative.
We had a really tightcommunications team with like, uh,

(23:05):
comms director, Mahan, Edwin,the sort of photographer,
multimedia, um, Meganand the rest of the team.
And, and anytime somethingwould happen, it'd be like,
what can we do around it?
We're gonna announce thatminimum wage is gonna be raised.
We gotta hear the voices of the people
who are gonna be affected by it.

(23:26):
So it's like putting togetherlike a production, um,
and, uh, and making ithappen in real time at the,
at the event, putting thatout, um, getting it picked,
you know, obviously retweetingon energy gov, collaborating
with other agencies,reaching out to the press

(23:47):
to see if they'll sharethis on TV or whatever.
It's, it's, we're making, youknow, we're definitely trying,
we were trying to make things
that would tell the story ina really, like, effective way.
You know, when, when Covidhit, um, that was a big,
a big thing during the administration.

(24:07):
Um, obviously we were doingdaily press conferences.
That was all, all digital, all live.
We were, we had to finddifferent ways of spreading.
Like nobody knew what wasgoing on. We were all confused.
We were trying to follow guidance.
You remember 2020, I mean,we all try to forget,
but, um, that was, that was wild.

(24:28):
Those were wild times.
And we really had noidea what was going on.
Um, we were, we weretrying to different ways
to spread the message oflike social distancing,
getting vaccine, staying in your house.
So there were multiple ways.
We were doing that through NJgov, through the governor's,

(24:50):
uh, accounts, through the website.
Um, we were doing meusing memes that was big.
And a lot of those memes Ihad not picked up myself.
They just weren't on my timeline.
Megan had picked themup and pointed 'em out,
and we had sort of like rolledwith, with different memes.
We were like the sheriff, thesheriff of social distancing.

(25:13):
Um, we were, uh, we, we were,
uh, looping with celebrities.
So like, we loop
with like The Situation fromthe Jersey Shore .
Oh, yes. Uh, and,
and many other folks whowere more than happy to like,
record videos with us tolike spread, um, spread out.

(25:34):
I mean, you know, itwas, it was just like,
and we wanted to be as clearand concise as possible.
We collaborated on doing a dashboard
that was updating on real time about
what was happening in New Jersey.
Um, there's an Office ofinnovation in New Jersey
where like, they'retrying to be not as behind
as most governments are, which is like,

(25:54):
you know, incredible.
Um, they're really, they're like leaps
and bounds moving forward.
Um, how do you like post, do,
do social media posts aboutlike deaths and hospitalizations
and like, do this stufflike really seriously.

(26:14):
And you know, during that time,
people were getting their information from
social media a lot.
So I mean, it was importantto do the, the me the, some
of the press was even gettingtheir information from social
media, these social media accounts, right.
Um, so yeah, that I think the,
that covid really stoodout to me as, as a way

(26:37):
that we could like, innovate
and find different ways toreach, reach our audiences.
- I, that's a pretty good- One. There's so many.
That's a good one. Yeah,I mean, there were, so,
there were, there's so many.
It's just like in New York City working
as like the right director of video too.
I mean, it's like hundredsand hundreds of stuff.
I can't even, I gotta, Ilike go through the archives

(26:58):
and I'm like, I can'tbelieve that I was there
and doing this, and this was amazing.
Um, it's just great.
I mean, it reminds me it was,
it was a hard transitionfrom journalism into
government communications,
but both have like a similar thing to me,
which is like this, that conceptof like the life of kings.

(27:21):
I know. Have you ever heard that?
It's like how journalism is described?
It was, it was sort of a quote by, um, I,
I'm forgetting now, but theconcept being that, you know,
it's, it's, you as a personcan experience either actually
or just by being there, the highs and lows
and everything of life, right?

(27:42):
You're, you're, uh, you'reon the top of the mountain
and you're underneath, youknow, uh, underneath the,
the ground and, and everywhere in between.
So that's like this, just likea very cool part about this
sort of government and, and journalism
and the similarities between them.
Um, it's, it's, to me,it's like this great,

(28:05):
like living life
and experiencing, you know,the world and helping folks.
- Yeah,- Of course. Let's not forget that.
- Obviously not, but obviouslynot to your point, there's
so many different factorsthat have to go into it.
Mm-Hmm. , um,you left in 20 my, oh, sorry.
- By the way, I bought aStanley Cup. I'm so embarrassed.

(28:29):
I just, I I Why does it out?
- Okay, let's take aninterlude for a second. Yeah.
Why does buying a Stanley Cup bother you?
There's a reason they're popular.
- I, I, I did see it on TikTok.
- All right. Well, that's a perfect
transition into the next topic.
I'd like to think about, which is, you know,
short form content,particularly since you left the

(28:51):
government and started yourown marketing, you know,
your own independentmarketing work, I should say.
Um, the, the, the, you know,the viral nature of TikTok,
and I mean that on many different ways
and in many different contexts has really
overtaken the conversation.
Uh, I was just at VidConlast week before we, you
and I record this, where,um, everything was, you know,

(29:13):
really focused on short formand thinking about gaming.
And, you know, we've movedaway from this concept
of longer form content.
Fuller conversations arewhat we wanna see online.
And now everybody's talkingabout how, you know,
even if TikTok goes away in the US
short form, content is king.
That's what everybody'sbanking on right now.
Uh, as you work for, uh, youknow, these other clients

(29:35):
and these, you know, sort ofnew directions you're looking
at, are you seeing thatreflected in, in, you know,
the conversations you're having?
Are these, you know, are, are brands and,
and other businesses thinkingin that same context?
Or is, are they still sort of, you know,
we wanna think about it even maybe
as just traditionaladvertising, let alone sort
of a broader marketing and comm strategy.
- You know, a few years ago people were

(29:57):
questioning about TikTok.
You know, it maybe wasn'tincluded in a marketing plan,
but, uh, or you had to sort of like, try
to convince a client, not anymore.
It has been proven.
You cannot argue witha billion monthly users
or whatever, whateverthey, they have right now.

(30:17):
There's something cool about TikTok.
Um, something that Ilove, which is, I mean,
forget the short formcontent for a second.
It's, it's the algorithm, um,
versus just sort of beingpopular or having a bully pulpit.
And that's how you'llget the eyeballs there.
There's a way for, as a TikTokuser, for you to sign up,

(30:42):
have no followerswhatsoever, do a, a video,
uh, or short form video and go viral.
Like, even without having followers.
Like it's, it's prettyremarkable. It's awesome.
There's, there's a certainleveling of the playing field,

(31:02):
uh, to that, to that sense that like,
you would have an opportunity
to get those eyes Yeah. Without
- Playing.
But I think it's also interestingtoo that, that there's a,
there's a a's pro anda con to that, right?
You're absolutely right. You know, uh, uh,
disintermediating your, yourfollower count from the ability
to go viral and have abroad impact on the platform

(31:24):
is immensely powerful.
But on the other hand, I, Idon't know that that also means
that stickiness is any better or worse.
In fact, maybe it is worse. Uh, we used
to joke back in the days of meta,
and maybe not joke, that'sprobably not the right word.
Let's try that againbefore somebody sues me.
But we, we used to discuss that, you know,
the follower on TikTokis not worth the same

(31:46):
as the follower on Instagram.
And that stickiness was areal challenge for a lot
of influencers who are moving platforms.
Do you think that the businesses
or the, the personalities that you work
with, do they understand that?
Do they see that challenge too?
Or is it something thatmaybe it's just they're
so not focused on it, itdoesn't really matter to them?

(32:07):
- You know, a lot
of the campaigns I'm workingon right now are, are
that they're actually campaigns.
So you get it viewed once, it's good.
Um, I'm not concentrating asmuch on building follower count
as I am on building those eyeballs.
So that's why it works. And I'm curious,
when you were at Meta, thatconversation apply to reels too.

(32:29):
It was like, okay, reels is like, great,
but it's not gonna increase your
account, your follower account.
- You know, at the time it was, um,
I'm trying to remember exactly when.
So I left Meta in, uh,April of last year, 2023.
So when we were having these discussions,
it would've been late 21, early 22.
And I think Reels was still

(32:50):
finding its footing a little bit.
There was still something ofa focus on your main gallery
on, on Instagram,
but reels there, there was a lot
of investment in makingreels work, which I think
by the time I left, the fruit of
that labor was finally starting to hit.
And I think that's how, uh,bullish everybody was on

(33:10):
that being the primary TikTok competitor.
Uh, not to mention, Imean, again, you know, the,
the full network effect ofhaving an Instagram account
that can then feed intoyour Facebook account,
that can feed into your Facebook pages,
that then can be directlylinked to WhatsApp
and Facebook Messenger, right?
All these different thingsfeeding into one another.
I think my memory is
that senior leadership at Metawas very bullish on all of

(33:32):
that, providing a larger long-termlift for content creators
and casual users than Insta,than not Instagram, I'm sorry.
Then TikTok, where we werealready starting to see
how much money TikTok was pouring into
advertising for that top of funnel.
But their retention rates
and their ability fortheir, uh, particularly the,

(33:52):
the influencers with largefollowings who were going live
and not seeing a lot ofvalue out of their lives,
there was some signal we were seeing that
that stickiness was not comparable.
Um, and so I think for alot of folks in, in internal
to meta the, the, the discussionwas really focused on not
so much, how do we beat TikTokat that virality so much as

(34:13):
how do we improve stickiness?
'cause that's how we outlast them.
- Right? Right, right, right.
- I don't think I'mbreaking NDA by any of that.
I think I've been prettyvague for the most part.
- How long has it, howlong has it been since,
since you said goodbye?
- Uh, over a year.- Okay.
- But I don't think I'm sayinganything that's particularly,
I don't think I'm saying anything
that wasn't covered in a Business
Insider article at somepoint. So I think I'm

(34:34):
- Alright.
You can cut, you can always cut that part.
- I dunno. We'll see. I mightjust keep it in for funsies.
- Yeah, for funsies.Let's, let's see, let's,
let's not experiment.
Why not? Let's experiment with your,
your livelihood andyour move to France. Um,
- Jokes on you.
Nobody will listen anyway. Exactly.
- Um, let me, I'llquickly plug what I'm up
to now since please.
It's been a few yearssince I've, I've, um, I,

(34:57):
I've been with, with New Jersey
and I've been with thegovernment, uh, it's, you know,
constant learning and evolution.
I went into agency life
and then, you know, I startedmy own agency for a little bit
and then joined up with this powerhouse of
women and other professionalsthat, you know, it's just five

(35:19):
of us, um,
to launch this companycalled Moxie Strategies.
Um, we're based inAsbury Park, New Jersey.
Of course, it's a national public affairs
advertising, um, uh, and data

(35:39):
and analytics agencyas like a, an overview.
Anyway, check us out.
But, um, you know, the interestingthing, so from, you know,
going from, you've, you'veheard about my, my career,
so coming into this spaceright now, where we're, a lot
of our clients are issueadvocacy or nonprofits

(36:03):
or they're sort of goals here,whether it's public health
or, um, maternal health
or environmental, you're,you're looking at pains.
So a a lot of it's paid, some of it's not.
Um, but a lot of it,
you're looking at like paidmedia campaigns, whether
that be digital or TV or out of home.

(36:27):
You're trying to, you have a message
and you're trying to getit out in the best way,
um, possible.
When I first went into this line of work,
I remember thinking, um,you know, coming from
that organic background, likeI, I was thinking how lame
paid is like a paid, like, paid,

(36:49):
paid campaign.
I don't know, it was justlike, isn't that a cop out?
Like, you're paying for the,for the eyeballs instead of,
instead of trying to like, makesomething go viral by like,
you know, doing a, a cowboy meme.
But, uh, you know, I've,I've really come around to it
and, you know, whether, Imean, even when it's paid,

(37:10):
it's still better be good
or else it's not gonna make a difference.
Um, so yeah.
Anyway, so that's, that's kindof like what I'm up to now.
And I'm kind of digging intothis to all of the aspects of,
of like these types of likecampaigns and engagements
and like making brands sustainable

(37:30):
and rebranding, you know,brands and messaging
and like really honing in on that.
And that's like, that'slike two decades of
coming from two decades ofjust like, like sort of rolling
around in the mud on this and,
and picking up, pickingup all of that info.

(37:50):
And so it's really, it's,
it's really kind of like fascinating.
It's refreshing to be inthis place where like it kind
of makes sense to have acareer path, like I had.
And, and I love it.
I never thought I would bein a position to be like
a business woman, you know, last, like,
I think it was like last month

(38:11):
or so, I got some sort of recognition
and I, I, I have it on the wall behind it.
I think it's like, it'ssome sort of citation
for being like a businessbusiness woman in New Jersey.
You know what I mean? It's like, yeah.
I mean, it's, it's just incredible.
This, there's just a concept of, I mean,
broaden the idea of business.
I'm not, I'm still notvery good at, at, you know,

(38:33):
personally making money, but money.
But the idea of like being a business, um,
being a professional,being an executive, yeah.
A creative executive. Inever thought possible.
It was always like createdcreatives were relegated to like,
to sort of like the back room, you know,
they were like in like the other Yeah.

(38:55):
- Subordinate.- Yeah, subordinate.
So just, I, I, I like it.I'm enjoying this ride.
I, I love that I, the conceptof empowering creatives,
all, all my collaborators now.
Like, I just want togive them like the space
and the respect, um, that they need.
Just because I've, I've learnedthe hard way, uh, you know,

(39:16):
that that's, you know,sort of how to, how to get
that and the value of that.
So yeah. It's, it'sreally, it's really fun.
Thanks for letting me plugMoxie. It's pretty awesome.
- Absolutely.- It's pretty awesome. You, um,
- Mm-Hmm, Well,you touched on something.
I'd love to, to tackle a little bit more
because as somebody who is,um, male, uh, I, you know,
I I have perhaps adifferent perspective than,

(39:38):
than you do on buildingpresences in marketing and,
and organically and paid,
you know, from a woman's perspective.
And you said you're an all you're,
you're an all women you agency.
Um, does
that influence the kindsof clients that you go for?
Is that a particular point of view
that you, you push towards?
Or is it just this iswhat we bring to the table
and we'll work with the folksthat want to use those skills?

(39:59):
- Yeah, I mean, almo, it'snot all women, but it's okay.
Mainly mainly women.
I would say women, women led,women owned, women led. Right.
And, and we have a, wehave a great, I mean,
we only have one male employee.
It's fantastic, Joe, really fantastic guy.
Um, yeah, they, they're,

(40:22):
I think mainly we're,
we're pretty much all frommale dominated professions.
Um, I think a lot of ushave come up in, I mean,
you know, our, we havesuch a variety of ages.
We, we have, you know, ouryoungest is is early thirties.
Um, our oldest is in her seventies, right?

(40:42):
So people who've come up inmale dominated fields in the
seventies, eighties, nineties,early, early aughts, um,
with a lot of, uh, there'sa lot of, a lot of stories
and a lot of, a lot oflike roughness in there.
Um, a lot of, a lot ofsexism, a lot of experience.

(41:03):
Just different things, a lot,a lot of trouble with, with,
uh, you know, balancing,let's say motherhood and,
and career and,
and sort of understandhaving an empathetic
understanding of things like that.
Uh, so I think the,the idea of being like,
at this different kind of agency, um,
having a different relationshipwith clients, having

(41:25):
more perspective on, on things.
I mean, we're still bad asses.
We're still working too hard, but,
but there's a certain,like, God, it's so cliche
to say softness of, uh, I, I don't,
I'm not gonna say thatbecause it's not true.
It's, uh, but, but there, yes, I,

(41:46):
I do think there is a difference.
I think we're really, we're really going
after work that is
more thoughtful and,
and we're being more carefulabout who we choose to work
with in a way.
And whether that's beingan all, all women led

(42:06):
or whether it's becausewe're just sort of older
and wiser, um, yeah,that's a, that's a big, uh,
that's a big part of it for sure.
- For sure. I appreciate that.
It sounds to me like there'sa different type of empathy,
perhaps a different type of
perspective is such a generic term,
but a different type of appreciation and,

(42:27):
and consideration that youbring to clients, which,
you know, I ran a marketingagency when I was younger.
Um, I'm not sure I knewwhat the hell I was doing.
I think I was just 31
and desperate to getoutta my previous gig.
Um, uh, boy, that's astory for another time.
And I'm sorry, PBS anybodycan't wait. What's that? Feel
- Free.
We got, we got a little bit of time if you
wanna delve into that story.
- I mean, I can, I, I don't know that

(42:47):
it's terribly exciting.
I, I left. Um, so I, aswe've talked about briefly,
I was one of the early guys at Hulu.
I left Hulu in late 2012.
And, uh, one of the seniorfolks there was very generous,
gave me an introduction to PBS
'cause I'd moved back home to dc.
I landed a job at PBS,
and it was like going from, uh, you know,
a Lamborghini on the Audubon
to a tractor on a one lane highway.

(43:09):
And I was, the whiplash I experienced,
I'm still experiencing neck pain.
Um, it could just be old that's different.
Um, and I, I loved, you know, my, my
coworkers at PBSI, they were solid people.
Some of 'em were even still there.
And I appreciate thatthey do important work.
I grew up on PBS,
but I also recognized
that it wasn't thespeed I wanted to go at.

(43:31):
And so after about workingthere eight months,
I used the excuse of a friend who wanted
to have me direct a web series, which was,
of course, completely made up.
Um, and left the job.
And my dad, who had, he'srun retail marketing agencies
for the last 40 years,had a client he wanted me
to come in on to do somesocial media marketing.
And that turned into some consulting,

(43:52):
which turned into a full-blown agency.
Um, and I, the one thing Ikick myself in the tail for is
that this is 20 13, 20 14.
This is the rise of influencersas a major economic force.
And I totally whiffed onseeing the opportunity
to build an influencer agency.
Um, I know, I know.
And it just kills me becauselike, I followed influencers.

(44:14):
I watched YouTube religiously,
and I just didn't puttwo and two together.
'cause I was so focused on trying
to build the model that I'd grown up with.
And that, you know, I wasworking with monumental sports,
you know, the, thecapitals and the wizards.
I was doing stuff with local,uh, uh, uh, culinary schools
and, you know, DC Unitedand stuff like that.
And I didn't see that there wasa plane opportunity in front
of me to take these, youknow, young attractive talents

(44:36):
and put them in front of brandsand marry the two together.
And it kills me because,
- You know, the, theamount of opportunity,
the opportunities we'vesquandered along the way,
- I, I, I'm only gonna push back on the,
on the term squanderedbecause it, if it had occurred
to me, and then I'd ignored it.
- Yeah. - That squandering, Iwas just too dumb to see it.

(44:57):
That's my problem. ,
- I had this conversation with,with Nathan, uh, recently,
which was like, obviously
as you discussed on your lastpodcast, personal branding
and creating a personal following is one
of the hardest things to do.
And I have certainly, uh, notsquandered, I mean, just not

(45:18):
taken any opportunity thatI've had to build my own
personal branding, you know what I mean?
Like, any, any press that I'vegotten, my response has been
to go deeper and deeperundercover, you know,
turn off my own social mediaaccounts, turn off, you know,
never, never even try.
Um, but, you know, it's okay.

(45:40):
This is, listen, we learned from this.
There's gotta be somethingelse in the future
that you're gonna tap into,you're gonna know to tap into.
And when you're, when you'reready, you're gonna be ready.
- Well, let me, let me do,let me see if I can help here,
because, uh,
let's turn your marketingbrain onto me in this
podcast as an example.
Like if I'm startingthis relatively speaking,

(46:00):
I'm not starting from scratch,
but I'm starting at an early level.
What are some of the bestpractices I can employ
to really build up my social presence?
Right? And maybe that's a shortform account of some nature.
Maybe it's the longer form,email, blog, something or other.
But like, what in your mindconstitutes best practices
for building your brandand brand identity?
- You know, you mentioned this in your,

(46:22):
in your last account, whichthe, the hard thing to do,
which was put togetherthese sort of sizzle reels.
Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonnapoint point you to,
and I think there thisis, there's a, a woman
who has a great podcastcalled The Cutting Room Floor.
I dunno if you you'refamiliar with that. Um, yeah.

(46:43):
I mean her, so speaking of reels
and stuff, like, her reelscome up all the time, um,
on my, on my feed.
Uh, and she puts togethersome great sizzle.
Um, and, and they're, they're,you know, that the kind of
short form content that's beefy enough
to give you something,

(47:03):
but not long enough that,that you don't need more.
Right? Like, you still, you,you gotta sign up for it
or you got a follower toknow things, uh, to do it.
Um, so I, I, I've been,I've been really, when I,
when I think of, and I,
and I have not to be honest, ever tried,
ever marketed a podcast specifically,

(47:24):
but watching her has been,uh, has been to me a bit of a,
a masterclass in, in learning how to sort
of market your podcast,which is, which is these just
constantly feeding yoursocial, I'm looking at her now.
She has 101 Insta a hundred,1000 Instagram followers.

(47:45):
I think a lot of it's coming from reels.
- Okay. So, so let's eventake that a step further
and say, uh,
if you were gonna promoteyourself, you can't tell.
I'm trying to give you,to give me advice so
that you can reflect it back for yourself.
Yeah. I just wanna be veryclear about the dynamics here. I
- Told, I told Yeah, , I, I,
- I'm trying, I'm really I- Know. Was
- Podcast, really,- You know, it's funny, I, I just, I,

(48:06):
you know, it's funny, I had her,
I've never actually had achance to talk about that,
her account, but I've been like, really?
I've been really eyeing it. So thank you
for giving me an op opportunity for that.
But yeah, let's talk aboutyou and I or you Sure.
As a, as an it for I, how, uh, you know,
it's being consistent.
It's having the con and,

(48:26):
and I think a lot of it is,
is like confidence in your own self
and in your own brand,identifying exactly what
that is and sticking with it.
And I think there's acertain, it's also not
giving up and not beingembarrassed when you have no

(48:48):
likes and retweets.
You know, there, there'ssomething, there's something that,
for me, something that stopsme from having a voice,
having my own personal voiceonline, is the lack is, is sort
of the lack of a lackof engagement, right?
It's a, that is a sort ofreflection of like, a little bit

(49:10):
of self-confidence, a littlebit of, um, uh, you know,
a little bit of fear,like sort of being judged
and also just having that historyof being on a bully pulpit
where running a bully pulpitas a brand where I'm used
to constantly gettingfeedback, whether good
or bad, just at leasthaving something you have

(49:34):
to be comfortable with tweetinginto a void in order to,
and, and just keeping going.
I, I, I don't know. Imean, I feel like, yes,
and I'm telling myself todo this, like, keep talking,
whether it could be Twitter,it could be LinkedIn,
it could be TikTok, it could be Instagram,
but like, just keep going.
Like stop being afraid

(49:55):
of yourself, really.
'cause you're afraid, you're,the reason you're not doing it
is because you're afraidof, of, of like, you know,
your own, your own fear.
Like, it's just you'reafraid of not being seen
or understood or paid attention to enough
or, you know, I, I thinkI, I think that's it.
Consistency knowledge of self brand and,

(50:18):
and like, get, get off to the races.
- Well, first of all, uh, notonly are you echoing advice
that had been said on thispodcast time and again, Mm-Hmm.
Um, but you make it soundpretty straightforward, so
I'm just gonna throw it back to you.
What's stopping youfrom doing exactly that?
Is it just the, the, youknow, the, the fear, the,

(50:38):
um, you know, you know,
- I've been, I've been in,I I've been therapy Jason.
- Okay, good. Hey,- I'm working through it. Welcome
- To the club.
Yep. All right, good. Good.
- We're, we're, we're,we're working ,
we're working through it.
But I will say I admire allof you who are doing it.
Espec, you know, those ofyou who are successful at it,
but especially those ofyou who keep doing it,

(51:01):
and like, you're gettinglike one, like from your
high school creative writing teacher,
and you're get, you know
what I mean? Like, but you're still,
- You're gone specific and deep cut there,
but yes, that's exactly wholikes my stuff. Thank you.
- I do, I do. Big shoutout to Miss Heline, um,
from Red Bank Regional High School,
- Dixie Baker, Bethesda,Maryland. Anyway, you

(51:22):
- Okay.
So, uh, so yeah, I, youknow, just keep, let's,
let's keep going and let's not be afraid,
and you're helping with this.
I suggest everybody go onJason's podcast right now, just
to sort of try to like, buildup yourself, understand like
who you are, come in completely unprepared
and be impressed with yourselfthat you could make it

(51:43):
through, you know, 50minutes and not like crumble.
- I, I, you've done a brilliant job
and I'm saving that call to action
for many a social media call out.
Thank you. That'sbeautiful. Appreciate it.
I wanna take a step back andjust reflect what you've said.
'cause I think there's somereally important things
here to, to call out.
The first being, as I joked aa moment ago, you are echoing

(52:06):
what I hear consistentlyfrom later stage creators,
from folks who are in marketing
and pr in, you know, on thedistribution side, right?
The thing that separatesfolks from, you know, those
that can't is just the willingness
to do it when nobody's listening.
Um, every,
every advice I've everheard about building
a Twitch channel, right?

(52:27):
You gotta stream as if you'vegot a thousand people watching
at the same time, evenwhen it's just your mom
who doesn't reallyunderstand what's happening.
Um, it's so much harderto do as you get older
because our, you know,
our structures are wellput together, right?
We are used to the people around us
who give us positive feedback
that when we put ourself in a new space,

(52:47):
it's not like being a little kid
where we don't know the difference.
And I say little 'cause, you know, some
of these kids are only 13
and they're just putting it out there.
But like, the fact that we are
ensconced in our own littleworlds makes this even harder
because no feedback is worsethan negative feedback.
'cause it sounds worse. Likeyelling into the wind is almost
worse than being told to be quiet

(53:08):
by an audience that's atleast paying attention.
But I, I really love the, I love the drive
behind what you're saying oflike, just get it done, right?
You wouldn't tell a clientwho's brand, you know,
they're building a brandnew, you know, company,
they're building a new, uh,uh, you know, physical good
or something like, the solutionisn't just to spend money.
They have to also embody the brand.

(53:29):
And we have to be willing to do it when
nobody's listening, right?
None of that is differentiated
between an individual building a brand
and a company building a brand,
or an individual buildingtheir subject matter expertise
and a brand that needs tosell goods or services.
So I just wanna call back out to you.
It's very clear to me, youknow, the path for your clients,

(53:50):
you know, the path to do this, right?
I get how much harder,trust me as a podcaster
to the nobodies, that's not true.
I, I, please listen, but
- I love your podcast. No,
- Thank you. It's,
- You're gonna have you,you gonna have one listener,
- I'll take it coming- Off,
- But more the point, you have
to pretend like there's nobody listening
and still be okay with it, right?
Correct. Yeah. So, so mychallenge to you as we wrap up,

(54:13):
you know, you've spoken brilliantly
and eloquently about, youknow, building NJ gov from Zero
and now working in this great,you know, firm where you get
to work with other brilliant women
and one man who, you know,
who helped you support what you wanna do.
What can you take away?What are you gonna do next
to build the Pearl brand?
What's, what's it gonna be?

(54:35):
- This is so great. Ithink I'm gonna start, I'm,
I'm gonna take your inspiration
and I'm gonna start liketalking into the void.
- You're have onelistener guaranteed right
here. I promise. When
- You're, when you're, you know, in,
in journalism especiallyphotojournalism, you are wallpaper.
You don't have, you can't,
you don't have a political opinion,

(54:55):
you don't have a voice in the room.
You're not really like a person.
You're a vessel for getting a kind,
you know, in a sense, right?
This is how, this is howyou've sort of learned,
or you can think of yourselfor if you're too much
of a thinker, like Iwas, like, you're just,
you're just this vesselfor getting the story
and you don't have a voice.
Um, you know, working throughit, getting older, learning

(55:18):
how to have a voice, learning that,
that you are like a person, uh, no matter
what your identity is or how you identify
or your background, uh,like you are, you have,
you are a person, you have a
perspective, and you have a story to tell.
Um, that's it.
Knowing it and like movingforward and doing it.

(55:38):
And I'm gonna, I thinkI'm gonna start today.
I think you might see me tweet.
Can't wait for the firsttime in months. Can't,
- Can't wait- Later today.
So stay tuned. Everybody
- Tag me.
I'll follow, I'll repromote.
Let's make it happen. I'm in. Awesome,
- Awesome.
- Well, Pearl, it has been a
tremendous pleasure to have you.
Thank you for your time. Where should
folks go to follow you?

(55:58):
Let's build you a littlebit of an audience here.
Where should we direct them?
- I love it. Pearl Gabel
at Pearl Gabel at allsocial media accounts.
P-E-A-R-L-G-A-B-E-L.
Find out more about MoxieStrategies at moxy, M-O-X-I-E
strategies.com.

(56:19):
And keep in touch guys.
I love, uh, I love totalk to like, you know,
like-minded folks
and I just really, I can't wait
to see more folks on your podcast.
Can't wait to keep in touchwith you, Jason. Well, really
- Appreciate it, bro.
It's been a pleasure. Absolutely.
Thank you so much. Have A great day.
- You too. Bye.