December 11, 2024 • 52 mins
In Part 2 of the 1961 conversation with Eleanor Roosevelt, she explains why the United Nations gave her a standing ovation, how she transformed herself from having racist thoughts to dedicating her lives to those who she once may have judged, and she will talk quite a bit about lesbians in the Democratic party.
Start episode 2 to join the conversation.
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Ruth Pangrace’s inspiring portrayal of Eleanor Roosevelt is a powerful reminder that a person’s value is judged by their contribution. Few have given more selflessly than Eleanor Roosevelt. Ruth joined Women in History in 1998 and portrays fourteen notable American women. In addition to Eleanor Roosevelt, her favorites include Susan B Anthony, Julia Child, and Georgia O’Keeffe. Ruth has an M. Ed and has taught pre-school to graduate level education, English and history classes. Ruth can be reached at women@womeninhistoryohio.com, or ruthpangrace@gmail.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey there it's Tony.
Where's that guy it's usually righthere, that, that guy with the perfect
voice that does that wonderful intro.
Well, the reason he's not on yet isbecause I wanted to say thank you for
another great year of calling history.
. We've had so many fantastic interviewsand there's going to be more next year.
This is the last one of this year.
But next year we might beadding something different.
(00:20):
I don't think it will happen untilabout mid year, but some of these
people may be having conversations.
With each other, which couldbe very, very interesting, but
you'll hear more about that.
Next year until then.
I just want to say thank you for allthe people that sent money for this.
I'm just kidding.
Nobody's sending any money.
Cause we didn't ask her any.
But very seriously, thishas been a lot of fun.
And I'm excited to see who weget on the podcast next year.
(00:44):
So this is it.
The next podcast will be.
On Wednesday.
January 1st, 2025.
Happy holidays.
And here's the guy
(01:21):
Welcome back to part twoof Eleanor Roosevelt.
In the last episode, we learnedthat Eleanor is capable of doing
good, regardless of the amountof criticism that she receives.
We learned that presidentRoosevelt has a wandering eye and
occasionally a wandering hand.
And we learned that his motherwas probably the scariest
mother-in-law in history.
(01:41):
In this episode, Eleanor is going totell the story of what caused the United
nations to give her a standing ovation.
She'll tell the story of how a groupof airmen were unable to fly and
fight in the war until she demandedthat one of them take her for a ride.
And then she's going to talk quite a bitabout lesbians in the democratic party.
So what happened after that?
Because now, , you have all these childrenand You guys were in love at some point,
(02:05):
but now that situation seems fracturedand yet you don't leave him which now I
can see why this happens first of all Itwouldn't be appropriate from the divorce.
Sarah wouldn't allow it.
She's gonna cut everybody off But alsothere's a connection because you know He's
still always the guy that walks up to youwhen nobody else would, and you're both
(02:26):
brilliant, and you have so much to give.
So does your relationship change there?
Is it now a partnershipinstead of a marriage?
It was absolutely a partnership, anda very effective partnership, and
he always respected and trusted mychoices and my input and my influence
(02:46):
and very often he would joke.
, he sometimes used, my presence or myinfluence to explain away something
that he wanted to do politically anyway.
If it was something that wasgenerating disapproval, he would
say, Well, I can't help it.
You know my Eleanor.
Blame poor choices or any criticisms onme and it's something that we encouraged
(03:09):
or something that we worked on togetherwas a very great success and he would
go and then he'd be proud and he said,well, you know my Eleanor and she gets
things done and he always included mein very many of the decision making.
And the private meetings and thestrategies and such, he still
trusted my opinion and my input.
And very often, as I said earlier,he was unable to always truly follow
his heart because he was a politicianwho had to make sure that things
(03:32):
that he proposed would actually makeit through Congress and become law.
And so he was sometimes restricted, butwe had a remarkable relationship and it
just also forced both of us to find adifferent kind of and I would say love,
a different kind of love in other places.
And there's so many different kindsof love among friends, and among
(03:53):
colleagues, and among married people.
People that I still will always saythat we truly did love each other.
We just didn't love each other in thesame way that married couples usually do.
But we were very happy andconcerned about each other.
And when he passed, Isaid, the story's over.
I said, all right, I'mno longer first lady.
Now I will have nothing to do.
(04:15):
I am going to move out of the white house.
And I almost felt like Ihad to give up everything.
And I believe it was at Franklin's funeralwhen I met with the now president Truman.
And he came up to me and he said, Mrs.
Roosevelt, I'm so sorryfor this great loss.
What can we do for you?
And I thought back, Madame Sinfestra,always make yourself useful.
(04:38):
And I said, no.
What, Mr.
President, can I do for you?
And I think he was a little takenaback by that because I don't
think he knew what to do with me.
I have the reputation already of beinga meddler and a troublemaker and such.
, one time he suggested that I might wantto consider being on his presidential
ticket for reelection as vice president.
And I don't feel to this day, no, if hewas joking or if he was serious, but what
(05:01):
he did do for me is he found me a new job.
And after the war was over.
There was this wonderful organizationcalled the United Nations, bringing all
of the countries together as partners inorder to preserve peace in this world.
And it was very new, and he put me on acommittee, it was Committee 3, I believe
it had something to do with with socialissues and such, and I think he was
(05:25):
hoping that I could cause no troublethere, or any kind of controversy.
And yet, it was on that Committee 3at the United Nations that I was able
to work on what I truly feel is thegreatest accomplishment, achievement
in my life, and again, a privilege tobe able to work on it, was to address
the situation of refugees who had losttheir homes and , their lives as they
(05:49):
knew it, all of their security, theirfamilies, address the issue of refugees.
And address the issue of theworld working together as separate
countries to maintain world peace.
And that we drafted the UniversalDeclaration of Human Rights.
And that document, I believe that was1948 when it was written and finally
(06:09):
ratified and there was great resistancefrom the communist bloc countries
who didn't want any part of this.
This declaration that statedthat it is not just Americans.
That are entitled to life andliberty and pursuit of happiness.
It isn't just Americans who are entitledto homes and to food and to medical
care, but those rights are human rights.
(06:30):
God given rights forpeople all over the world.
And if a country has the resources andthe capability to share or to take care
of or to protect the rights of others whoare less able, it is our responsibility,
to reach out and make sure that everyoneon this planet enjoys those same natural
rights, those same natural freedoms.
And that is the work ofwhich I truly am most proud.
(06:53):
In fact, when I finally read thatdeclaration in 1948, I even received a
standing ovation from the United Nations.
And , you can't see my face right now,but I'm smiling with a very large smile
because I am so proud that we wereable to see that document through.
And right now that Declaration ofHuman Rights has been the the basis
for very many constitutions of newlyarising nations all over the world.
(07:15):
. Now, did you help write thisdocument or did you just play a
role in, , getting it ratified?
We definitely had a committee, butI did by far the most actual writing
and the most advocating also tothose who were skeptical about such
a document coming into existence.
So, no, I pretty much receive a lotof the credit for writing and for
saying that this was ratified throughcareful negotiations and diplomacy.
(07:38):
What are these human rights?
Well, first of all, that it isthe government's responsibility.
provide homes, and to make sure thateveryone has enough to eat, that everyone
has access to care, that anothercountry does not have the right to invade
another country and subjugate them.
So it is basic human rights that entitledto anyone who's living in this world.
(08:00):
To be treated fairly and to beinsured of safety and protection and
freedom and religious freedom as well.
It protects all of these countriesagainst dictators and so I think that is
why you see so often in, in this modernworld criticism when the United States
tries to help some of these countriesthat are suffering and are in need
(08:21):
and aren't enjoying those same rights.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rightsstated that is our responsibility and
we all signed that and agreed to that.
And yet, somehow the influence, thereputation of this document is It's a
little bit now that we're in modern timesand as we see the world is becoming more
and more complicated and as much as wetry to address some of these issues all
(08:42):
around the world, some people feel thatour resources too are somewhat limited.
We can't always do everythingthat we know we need to do.
So which are the countries inyour time that were against this,
? Well, certainly Russia, the Soviet Union, wanted to have the right , to
annex any kind of property orinvade any kind of country that they
saw was somehow entitled to them.
(09:03):
So those would be some.
There were also some African countrieswho were also against signing it
because they were uh, corruptmonarchies or dictators and such,
but mostly it was the eastern bloc.
, those were the yearsleading into the cold war.
And , communist influence was very strong.
And clearly their purpose was oneto I believe included domination of
(09:24):
Eastern Europe and maybe even beyond.
sad to know that Russia has notshaken off that desire to invade
and exploit human rights yet.
Well, that's just truly breaks myheart I would have hoped that we would
have learned our lessons by now andyet so often we see that history just
continues to repeat itself and we continueto rather learn from our mistakes.
(09:47):
We just seem destined tomake them again and again.
Well, hopefully we'llfigure it out at some point.
Well, that's my prayer.
Yeah, I want to ask you a questionabout Franklin for a second.
So when I think about President Roosevelt,I think of him as a brilliant man.
I think of him definitely as a politician.
You're describing him as the kindof person who's got to keep, , the
(10:08):
different factions happy so that,he can continue to get things done.
So, I think it's brilliant.
It's fairly easy to put a label onhim, what his position is in your
partnership, but what would your label be?
Were you his conscience?
Were you his coach?
Were you the person that pushed him?
Were you the idea person?
, how would you label yourselfin that partnership?
(10:30):
I love that you use the word consciencebecause there were other political
analysts who would say, or writers thatwould say he was a pragmatist, practical,
get the work done, , get the end result.
And I was the absolutist and,the activist, but the absolutist
that had the conscience.
, to do what I think was right,knowing I'll be criticized,
(10:51):
but , there were no repercussionsfor me other than being criticized.
It didn't affect , my standingor it didn't affect my life the
way it would affect Franklin.
So yes, I like to think his politicalconscience, I was kind of, like the
trial balloon for certain issues.
And I was blown up, , and it was methat caused the stir, if it was me that
planted an idea that the country wasn'tready to accept yet, if I blew up, it
(11:11):
really didn't affect him politically.
We were truly, , great partnersthat kind of balanced each other out
. you were talking about World War II and when you were spending time with the
troops, there are some amazing storiesof how you handled those meetings.
, a lot of times politicians will,, they're trying to do a photo op or
(11:33):
they're trying to get some good press.
You know, I went and saw theveterans, but it appeared as if
you really took your time and youwent from one person to the next.
Can you tell me a little bit aboutyour experience with wounded veterans?
You're absolutely right.
I mean, certainly there were somephoto opportunities, but especially
going into the hospitals where I wouldsee the wounded and you're right.
(11:55):
I went from bed to bed and veryoften I may even become a little
bit choked up when I recall thesetimes when I Took their hands in
mine, or I would put my hand onthe face of a man who had dedicated
his life in service to his country.
I'd put my hand on his face in the sameway that perhaps his mother would if she
(12:16):
had been there, and I tried to look intothe eyes and tell each one of them that
America truly appreciated their service.
And my heart would always beso incredibly full when I had
the opportunity to do that.
I think it was 8, 000 miles, perhaps,like covered once again, Franklin
was unable to travel with hispolio, with his physical condition.
So there was another time I became thelegs for him and made those trips to
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Northern Africa and in the South Pacificand all over and not even just visiting
the wounded and the sick and takinghome words that they left with me.
To take home and share with their lovedones, should they not make it home?
How did you deal with that?
When you go through good times in yourlife, you also have to be appreciative
(13:00):
of the bad times, the hard times.
And I think times like that, it make mestronger to have seen death as a child
with my own mother and my own father.
And to have suffered heartache and to havesuffered rejection and criticism and such
and hardship in so many ways, I think thatit helps you better have the strength and
courage to fall back on when you are facedwith something that's equally challenging
(13:24):
and something that's very difficult.
It helps you to go forward and toface your fears and to face those
excruciating experience with aresolve that was built perhaps in
you from infancy or from childhood.
And no, you're right, it does notget easier, but you have to always
do what you think you cannot do.
It is imperative.
And it is a valuable gift for those menand women to see that I also could feel
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their pain and that I was genuinelyheartbroken and equally inspired.
So speaking to the wounded or speakingto just even the troops in general,
trying to be encouraging and tryingto let them know how deeply grateful
this country was for their service.
I traveled so very much and Ienjoyed each one of those trips.
(14:10):
I do like the one anecdote that AdmiralPerry, I suppose was at the South Pole
and, and there was a anecdote that healways set an extra plate at his dinner
table just in case Eleanor should stop by.
I also sometimes was distressedwhen I heard of minorities not
being treated equally in the armedservices and not receiving the
(14:33):
respect and such that they did.
There was a group of airmen, fighterpilots, the Tuskegee Airmen, who are
a group of colored fighter pilotswho are highly skilled and incredibly
devoted to serving their country.
And they had passed all of the trainingand all, and scored the highest on
all of the academic tests and such.
Because of their race, they werenever given an assignment that
(14:56):
actually took them into the airto fight , the Nazi Air Force.
And so I said, I have to goand I have to visit these men.
And I went to their training base, theTuskegee Airmen, and I said, I want to see
the planes and I want to meet the pilots.
And I also want to go up for a ride.
(15:17):
And so I met some of the verydistinguished and wonderful men
that were part of that unit.
And when it , came time for me togo and actually go up in one of the
airplanes they were ushering overone of the white officers and such.
And I said no.
I want to go up in the airplanewith that gentleman over there.
And it was a young black man.
And he was so excited.
I could see the light in hiseyes when I pointed him out.
(15:38):
And I said, I want him to takeme up for a ride in the plane.
And I want to make sure.
But there are plenty ofphotographers around that are
going to capture this moment.
And indeed we did.
We went up in the airplane.
We circled around a few times.
And when we came back, there werevery many photographs of me with
that young Tuskegee Airmen that werecirculated in all the newspapers.
And after that, in calling attention tothe fact that they had never been given
(15:59):
a serious mission to fly, after thatthey finally did, and oh, They proved
that they were so capable and so highlyskilled, they were a terrific asset to
the armed forces during those years.
And I'm very proud that , bytaking a photograph, I had the
tiniest bit of helping them provededicated Americans they truly were.
(16:22):
, it just seems that you find thesegroups that have been forgotten or
marginalized or, and you just jumpin and you say, okay, look, these
are people that have something togive and I'm going to go in and I'm
going to give them a chance to give.
This reminds me a lot of The pressconferences that I read about
(16:43):
that you did at the White House.
Can you tell a little bit about that?
Well, I know that from thetime I was First Lady I
wanted to advocate for women.
So I did ask that all of my pressconferences would be filled with Women
journalists, and I did stick to that forquite a while, and I encouraged them.
I appreciated them.
And I think some of my bestinterviews were those that were
(17:04):
written by female journalists.
And I'm also very tickled when I hearthat women enrolling in journalism school
just increased , after they saw thatso many women were actually involved in
journalism interviewing Eleanor Roosevelt,and I was happy to have a part of that.
I wasn't the First Lady to conduct her owninterviews and her own press conferences,
but I did take full advantage of them.
I had another wonderful way andopportunity to actually connect
(17:28):
with the American people, and thatwas, I believe, in about 1936,
I was asked to write a column.
A daily column called My Day.
People wanted a glimpse of whata day in the life of Eleanor
Roosevelt was actually like.
And I think initially, they wanted meto write about fashion or what people
were wearing at the White House.
(17:48):
And as I said, I had noinkling what that was about.
One of the earliest headlines alsothat I had to endure when I was
First Lady was It was an Augustday and the headlines were Mrs.
Roosevelt is wearing asleeveless dress in public.
And truly, that was a, that wasso controversial at that time.
It was August, it was hot, I had on asleeveless dress and that was completely
(18:08):
inappropriate for a first lady.
You know, I think they would have reallybeen shocked if they knew I didn't
have stockings on that day either.
So I, I always believed that anybodywho spent more than 10 on a dress
was truly wasting their money.
And the other thing I believe that Icame to see that they wanted me to write
about in the my day column was aboutbanquets and food and such and I also
(18:28):
never hardly even attended a party,let alone throw a party or banquet.
And I was a terrible cook.
I had no idea how to cook.
And so I had to actually hiresomeone to be the cook, the
official cook for the White House.
And I had met this lovely womanduring the days of the Depression.
and in the early days she was selling.
Baked goods on the sidewalk.
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Her name was Henrietta Nesbitt, and shewas so kind and so gracious that she
let me Have little samples of the thingsthat she was selling that I brought her
into the White House as the chief cookand she did a magnificent job cleaning
and organizing between you and me.
The kitchen at that time wasrather filthy and disorganized.
(19:09):
But unfortunately, she wasnot a very good cook at all.
We tended to have a lot of runny eggsand tapioca and gelatin and things like
that it was actually pretty revolting.
And poor Franklin, who would used tobe, have a very taste for fine cuisine
was very patient and accommodatingduring those years that poor Henrietta
(19:31):
was serving up this terrible food.
You know that during those early yearswhen she was running the kitchen,
most people who invited to the WhiteHouse for a banquet or a dinner.
They knew it was a good ideato eat before they came.
And that's true.
But on the other hand Are you kidding me?
No, just look up any of the recipesof the White House at that time.
(19:54):
We were not known for very good food.
But at the same time, , there was alsothat part of both Henrietta and my part
that recognized How could we, in goodfaith, serve expensive delicacies and
sumptuous banquets and such with allwith steak and all these delicacies?
(20:14):
How could we do that knowingthat the rest of the country was
struggling through this depression,barely able to buy a loaf of bread?
Yeah.
How hypocritical.
So then we also said, well, we intendedthese dinners to be, budget worthy and
saving people money and giving you anexample of how you could eat and you could
be sustained on meals that could be puttogether for less than a dollar a piece.
(20:38):
And so that was also kind of our mantra.
We never wanted to be as much as wecould afford to, and as much as the
precedent had been set for almost likeroyal treatment at the White House.
We always felt that all ofthe rules apply to all of us.
And it was unfair to ask the Americanpeople to sacrifice it to do with less.
If we were unwilling to do it ourselves,
thinking that any good leader would have.
(21:00):
Unfortunately, I don't know if it'sall that popular of an approach,
but I will say this too, that, thatactually was also what we thought
about what I was thinking about.
When we were found ourselves in WorldWar II and we won World War I, but I
don't think America truly learned fromWorld War One, and that was because
(21:21):
those that were left at home did notfeel a part of the war effort at all.
And so when World War Two broke out, andyes, I made it one of my priorities to
go and visit all of those men and womenthat were serving all over the world.
We also made it a priority to supportthose that are on the home front.
(21:42):
We encourage people toplant victory gardens.
Victory gardens so that people wouldlearn how to grow their own food and
vegetables so that the food processingplants and the factories could concentrate
on providing the food to send overseasto all of the troops that we had all over
and make that the most important focusfor them and not worry so much about what
we would find in our own grocery store.
(22:02):
We could grow it ourselves.
We haven't had a victory garden.
It wasn't particularly successful, butwe have one right on the front lawn of
the White House to show an example thatwe're all in this together and asking
the American people to ration some ofthe everyday goods in their own home
that could be diverted or saved and usedto producing weapons or ammunition that
(22:25):
could again be sent to those troops.
There were stores that saidbring your fat cans in here.
meaning not that you might think it meantat first your fat cans but cans coffee
cans would be filled with leftover fat andgrease that people have used in cooking
and those could be used in factories theycould be recycled and everyone recycled
things like foil in and metals and largeand We even recycled at the White House.
(22:49):
We had to also be in thistogether and set a good example.
And I remember the Christmases thatwe certainly we did not use all of the
German made ornaments that would normallydecorate a Christmas tree, but we also
did not use tinsel because it seemed likea waste of that precious thin foil that
could be sent to factories and reusedfor something that was truly purposeful
(23:11):
and for the benefit of our troops.
And all of the Americans worked in thistogether, the recycling and the victory
gardens and encouraging the women.
to learn new skills, so that they couldtake the places of men in the factories.
And how liberating that was forwomen to feel that they too had an
investment in this war struggle.
(23:32):
And they could also celebrate with themen equally when we finally saw victory.
Do you have a staff, personally,of 10, 000 people that help you?
Execute all of your causes?
I know it, I, the staff of the WhiteHouse alone is probably four or five
hundred and I know that because allyear long I pick up little trinkets
(23:55):
and little gifts for all of them.
There's a Christmas room in the WhiteHouse where I stash gifts so that I can
give them personal gifts on Christmas Eve.
And so I know that there's at least fourhundred just in the White House alone.
So I suppose, yeah.
But if you look at all of these effortsand all of these agencies, yes, it
probably would go into the thousands.
And because all of these policies andall of these issues go throughout the
(24:17):
entire country, not just in Washington, D.
C.
as well, the entire country is unified,one together, and there's nothing
that brings the country togethermore than this kind of struggle to
save democracy and a struggle to keepfreedom alive and well in this country.
Yeah, there's no question about that.
I'm wondering if I'd read a little bitat some point about that you have some
(24:40):
strong feelings about Jewish people thathad changed quite a bit over the years.
What can you tell me about that?
I am very embarrassed to say that asa young person growing up , in upstate
New York and in a very privilegedsocial circle, had feelings about
minorities, about colored peopleand about Jewish people, that there
(25:01):
were certainly discriminatory,even racist inclinations that I had
learned from the time I was a child.
But actually, I believe it also isdue to Madame Sylvester who taught me
that all people are the same in theirhearts and in their souls and have equal
value and should enjoy equal rights.
And if I had one true regret in my timeas First Lady, it would be when I realized
(25:28):
how the Jewish people were suffering.
Under the Nazi regime and desperatelytrying to escape death and the
camps and all kinds of atrocities.
One of my deepest regrets is that Iwas not able to do more to give those
refugees asylum in this country.
There were.
(25:48):
People that knew what was coming andthat knew we knew what was coming and
what was happening and yet we it tookso Very long for America to jump in
and really support our allies in theway that we had intended and especially
to welcome refugees That were tryingto escape not the party to welcome
them to our own shores I think becausethe end Antisemitism was so rampant
in our country, it still probably is.
(26:10):
And I don't know if I even want the answerto your, to that question if I ask about
what the future holds, but there wereactually a ship that was bringing Jewish
families to the United States for asylum.
And I don't know what theStatue of Liberty stands for,
if it doesn't stand for this.
I helped make arrangementsfor that ship to come.
And yet they were turnedaway at our borders.
(26:31):
And once again, it was certain.
Congressmen that were not ready toaccept refugees at all, and even more,
certainly not to accept what they sawas the negative, racist perceptions that
they had of people of the Jewish faith.
And they were turned back.
They were turned back.
And that ship had to return with thosefamilies heartbroken and disillusioned.
(26:54):
. But now prior to , , Madam Sylvestra, prior to you learning from her that
all people had value, you were raisedwith some of those racist beliefs.
That's what you were saying, right?
Absolutely.
I was saying we had what I wouldsay colored help when I was growing
up as a little girl and grandmotherHall's . And I had heard my aunts and
(27:15):
my uncles refer to them as darkies.
And we had grown up to never beingexposed to working with people from
other cultures or other races and such.
And so it takes a very long timeto Change those perceptions and
to change your whole outlook.
And again, it is embarrassing now tothink that is where we came from,
(27:36):
and yet at the same time, perhaps itcan be hopeful knowing that people can
change their perceptions and their,the way that they treat other people.
If you can go from one that was sogrossly racist and discriminatory to
an outlook that is we must save andwe must work for these people, then
perhaps that is something hopeful toknow that change is possible, channel.
(27:56):
Have there not been one or two people inyour life, instead of jumping into every
minority group and saying, how can Ihelp you, you could have gone the other
direction and been a racist, and probably,you would have known it was wrong, but
you just would have been raised that way.
Yes, and you also have to be gratefulthen for the people who initially
(28:17):
it sounds like were cruel or youwould might expect to have a negative
impact, such as my mother or in somerespects, even maybe Franklin because
he was disloyal in, in our marriage.
But yet.
All of those people in some way didshape the person that I became and shaped
(28:38):
the character and taught me lessons.
And you're absolutely right.
I think sometimes of my my cousin AliceRoosevelt, Theodore's Uncle Teddy's
daughter, my cousin was very bitterand we were close to the same age, but
she was very bitter because She alsohad lost her mother at an early age
and her father was also an adventurerand often gone on safaris and trips
(29:01):
and things and she felt resentfulthat she didn't get more attention.
And so she became a little bitembittered and she was one of my,
she was a thorn in my side, prettymuch, also arranging rendezvous
with Lucy Mercer and my husband.
She was always making fun of me and theway that I talk and impersonating me at
parties to get laughs with my friends.
It was very cruel.
(29:23):
And I suppose that if you have adifficult childhood, as you were
saying, Tony, you could go either way.
You could let that hate and thatvenom and those bad experiences shape
you and embitter you, or you canlearn from them and say, no, that's
not the way I want to live my life.
And again, it was Madame Sylvestersaying that happiness is a goal.
You can't make yourself be happy.
It only comes by serving others.
(29:44):
Good night.
Share that with very many people, I think.
If you're feeling unhappy or lonelyor discouraged make yourself useful.
Go and do something kind tosomebody else, an individual.
And not just writing a check, but actuallydoing something helpful to an individual.
And all of a sudden you will realizethat you feel a happiness that
(30:06):
you might never have experiencedbefore, certainly not in a long time.
There's no greater joy.
I've always been one to pitch in and tryto help in any way I can, as I did with
Franklin and unpacking his suitcases, andI actually, I had a wonderful gentleman
in my life when I was the wife of thegovernor, when Franklin was governor
of New York, and they decided as wifeof the governor, I needed a bodyguard,
(30:27):
and so I was assigned Earl Miller.
As my bodyguard when I was in thatrole, because they thought the wife
of the governor should be protected.
And he was another that I could probablysay left a footprint on my heart, because
he finally got me to enjoy He taught mehow to ride a horse and to drive the car.
(30:49):
As you said, I had my own little roadsterand I was supposed to have a driver and I
never wanted a driver as first lady or asa first wife of the governor, because it
was so much fun to drive that roadster.
My children used to say to me,mother, when you pull out into the
street in your roadsters, all theother cars like get out of the way.
And they all duck into the side streets.
And I tended to drive a little bitfast, but Earl Miller also taught
(31:10):
me how to shoot a revolver becausehe said if you're going to insist
on going out by yourself both as thegovernor's wife and as first lady, you
better know how to defend yourself.
So he taught me how to shoota revolver and I always kept
one in the glove compartment.
He taught me, Earl Miller taught me how toswim and how to finally, Enjoy children,
(31:32):
and it was too late for me to enjoy myown children because they were already
grown by the time we went into the WhiteHouse, but I so enjoyed my grandchildren.
And the entire third floor of the WhiteHouse was devoted to all of my children
and my grandchildren that visited veryfrequently and are still an important
part of my life, were very close.
(31:54):
, in going back to trying to be ofservice and always, , you want to do
things for the people that you love.
Well, even though Earl Miller wasthere to protect me and to spend
time with me and make sure that I wassafe, I would very often go to his
apartment and just clean up and tidyup a little bit because I wanted to
do something special for him as wellbecause he had showed me such kindness.
And he was also rather goodlooking as well, which certainly
(32:15):
didn't hurt that friendship.
This sounds to me like, like there mighthave been a potential relationship there.
Was there any kind of relationshipbeyond just friends there?
Well, I don't know if it's reallyappropriate for me to comment on that.
If you ask one of my sons they willsay, yes, that there was a relationship.
And right now I'm just going tochoose not to say anything at all.
(32:40):
And, and once again, I, there are alldifferent kinds of relationships and
intense relationships that can take verymany different directions, so we say.
Well, and speaking of that, it seemslike you had a really strong relationship
with Lorena Hickok, is that her name?
Lorena Hickok Hick.
was another one, yet another one,who left footprints on my heart.
(33:01):
You know, I first met her whenFranklin was being encouraged to
run for the presidency in 1932.
Because the nation turned theireyes to him as someone who not only
has the intelligence to addressthe Great Depression and how to
bring this country back on itsfeet, but also has the compassion.
I'm not going to do it.
(33:21):
And yet, at that time, I did notwant any part of being a First
Lady, because I had so much to do.
As I talked to you earlier, I wasinvolved in so many different things,
and I knew what a First Lady oftenlooked like, and that was not me.
I could not see myself in that role,and so I was less than enthusiastic
when Franklin was actually campaigning.
(33:42):
And it was Lorena Hickok, who was anAP reporter, who came to me after one
of those rallies, and she said, Mrs.
Roosevelt, we all know.
That you do not want to be a First Lady.
But if you are, you can be aFirst Lady unlike one that this
country has ever seen before.
You can be a voice for all the oppressedin this country that have no other voice.
(34:06):
Women, young people,minorities, and the poor.
And she helped me take on this rolethen with a completely new attitude
that there were people in this countrywho needed me, or someone like me, to
not be afraid to speak out for them.
And she was a very great friend anda close friend when I really had
(34:27):
no one close to me at that time.
And she spent a lot of time withme together, and she actually did
even have a room in the White House.
And it was very close to my own room.
In fact, they were joining so thatwe could spend our evenings sharing
the events of the day and talkingabout what we needed to do tomorrow.
And she was a great confidant.
And I know that there are certainletters that are sometimes circulating
(34:48):
and they might suggest that there was.
A physical relationship, but I wantyou also to remember that I was
called a subversive for giving MaryBethune a hug and a kiss on the cheek,
and very often, women like to holdhands or to be close to each other.
That is something that womenare very comfortable doing, and
throughout history, women havehad those kinds of relationships
(35:11):
that aren't necessarily physical.
It's completely the kind of relationshipyou might be considering in, in
your future, in your modern world.
So I think that the theory wouldstill be out and I wouldn't feel
comfortable actually confirming if itwas one thing or another, other than
to know that I loved her very much.
And I was sad when she felt that she hadto resign from her position because we had
(35:33):
become such close and such dear friendsthat she felt she could no longer cover
me in the newspapers without a bias.
Because she really thoughtvery highly of me and I of her.
She was a, she was there for me in a veryprecarious time as First Lady, when I
truly needed someone like her to shoreme up and give me courage to continue.
(35:55):
That's very bold of her to come tosomebody like you and give you a pep
talk about what you could accomplish,considering the kind of things that
you did and the person that you are.
, she must be a really extraordinary person.
She is an extraordinary person, and I doknow that she has admittedly confirmed
the fact that she is a lesbian, aswere Marion and Nan who I worked with
(36:17):
during the 1920s, they were also alesbian couple who were very involved
in many of the democratic committeesand in many of the social causes that
we were working on during even the 1920s.
And yet That just happened to be true ofvery many of the women who did not have
families and had the opportunity to spendtime getting politically involved, didn't
(36:39):
have families, but took their time awayfrom those causes that had the resources
to devote to those causes and those issuesin the education and the experience.
And I think we are very grateful tovery many of those women who did take
on those issues during that time.
And Yes, many of them were lesbians,and yet they did some of the finest
work for the people in our country.
I will never regret or deny my closefriendships with all of those women.
(37:04):
In fact, it was a great relief to mewhen I finally, through the 1920s,
was able to build my own life.
Home, Val Kill, where I could buy myown furniture, decorate it in any way
I wanted, serve whatever kind of food Iwanted there, and invite my friends, like
Marion and Nancy, and all the other womenthat I had been working with at that time
(37:25):
to come and work on these things together.
So perhaps they were almost like my staffin those days, but I will have great love
and affection for all those women, nomatter what they do behind closed doors,
I really don't feel is neither my businessor anyone else's business for that matter.
Do you think that in a different time,if you had , wiped the chalkboard clean
(37:46):
of all your responsibilities and all yourcauses and even your marriage you just
wiped the slate clean and you just lookedat Hick Lorena, people called her Hick?
Yes.
If she were a man, is thatsomebody you could have married?
Oh, definitely.
I do believe that is an interestingquestion and one that is so far from
my consciousness and In 1961 butI believe, yes, that's very true,
(38:11):
thoroughly enjoyed each other's company.
And I think we made each other betterwomen, better people, and we were great
comfort to each other when things werestressful or when we were undergoing any
kind of criticism or difficulties at all.
And there were plenty of those.
I think we also would havemade very good partners.
I could see certainly that might havebeen a very successful relationship.
(38:32):
So, it seems like you getalong with , most people,..
Who do you not get along with?
Is there a group of people, , doyou have problems with Italians?
Or, is there anybody that youjust don't get along with them?
Personally, and because of my work,I tend to work with people that
admire and have the same mindset.
But if there were a particular groupof people right now that always get
(38:52):
under my skin a little bit, and I amalmost afraid to say this, but right
now some of the people that are servingin Congress , who have a different
agenda than making life better and saferand cleaner and safer for Americans,
people whose agenda seems to include.
Keeping the status quo because theyprofit so much from it, the people,
(39:13):
especially in some constituencieswho are perfectly fine with racism or
misogyny or keeping outsiders out ofour borders, those people frustrate me
and make me angry because that is notwhat American democracy is all about.
We are here for everyone inthis country , to enjoy their
(39:33):
rights and their freedom equally.
And I'm most angry at people in ourgovernment who have that kind of
outlook who work against any of theseprogressive issues and improvements
in our country because they are moreworried about what they can gain
and maintaining their privilegedlifestyle than they are helping others.
And for me, I can't even imagineperson who would have that kind of
attitude, especially when they'vebeen gifted and blessed with so many.
(39:56):
And so many extras, but that probablyfrustrates me as far as one person, I'm
having a difficult time thinking of oneperson I really had a problem with Adolf
Hitler and I also never quite trustedStalin, but there'd be very few right now.
And of course, Joe McCarthy was anotherone who I really, I think he did
great damage in our country and I'm soglad that he was finally routed out.
(40:19):
But other than that, I can'tthink of any one personally.
And now as I'm thinking, I keepthinking of others that pop up.
My cousin Alice was very hurtful.
But other than that, I can't thinkof anyone else who I have complete
distaste or I try not to holdanger in my heart, let's say that.
I mean, people do what they thinkthey have to do at the time and
sometimes we just can't figure outwhere they're actually coming from.
But we just always do whatwe can to make things right.
(40:42):
We do whatever little thing we cando to improve our own lives and
to improve the people that we are.
It is a real talent of yours, after alifetime of, , you said that somebody
called you an ugly , duckling,
, and then you said that you were calledgranny by, I think your mother, , and as
you go into politics with the presidentpeople are From my understanding,
(41:07):
they're constantly, , saying negativethings about your clothing, and again,
about your looks, and, , that you'renot paying attention to the things that
women should pay attention to, maybe,and yet, it just seems like that just
constantly just rolls off your back, andyou just have a real talent for that.
Well, I think if you get older and Iam approaching I'm sure I'm approaching
(41:30):
the end of my life, and I'm grateful forthose kinds of lessons, which have helped
me to realize that outside appearancesdon't count at all, and they don't say
anything about who that person reallyis, whether it's the color of their
skin or the clothes that they wear.
Or the, their facial structureand such, that all of those
things don't matter at all.
But it's the person inside that,and it goes back to the purity of
(41:52):
heart and the nobility of spirit.
Those are the things that mattermost in, in who a person really is.
And so I am grateful that when you are70 you, you tend not to worry about your
appearance because there isn't very muchyou can do about it at this age anyway.
But I've always just felt the happiestknowing that I made a difference
perhaps in, in someone's life.
Even if it's just one person's life,I think it makes your life worthwhile.
(42:15):
And so I always try to encouragepeople that no matter what their
age or what their vocation is orwhere their standing is in life,
but to try to do something new.
That makes you useful to someoneelse, to show someone else a kindness.
And if that is the rule by youlive by every day, I think that you
will definitely a life well lived.
(42:35):
Were you a member of the Daughtersof the American Revolution?
Well, that is aninteresting story as well.
Yes, I actually was, and that goesall the way back to being a woman
of society, a woman of privilege.
I mean, anyone would feel like theydeserved or that they were entitled to
be a part of that esteemed organization.
And as I served as First Lady and Ibecame aware of the inequalities in
(42:58):
our country, particularly when itcame to minorities, and I became more
involved in the civil rights movement,I also became a great fan of an opera
singer by the name of Marian Anderson.
Thanks, Ben.
And she was brilliant and beautifuland probably the most talented opera
singer that this country has ever seen.
. She had traveled all over theworld giving concerts before.
(43:19):
And she was invited to speak atConstitutional Hall in Washington, D.
C., and so lookingforward to that concert.
It was sure to be a sellout.
But the sponsors of that concert werethe Daughters of the American Revolution.
And they sent out a statement thatsaid there will be no Negro singer
(43:39):
ever performing at ConstitutionHall, and they canceled her concert.
Now at that time I was outraged,I was mortified, and yet I took
advantage then of the voice thatI had through the My Day column.
And I wrote about this in the My Daycolumn and said what an outrage this
is, what an injustice this is, thatin our day and age that we would deny
(43:59):
someone as talented as Marian Andersonthe opportunity to share her gifts
because of the color of her skin, And sopeople began to realize that, that this
was certainly an issue and one that wewere not proud of at all as Americans.
And I also announced in the, in thatmy day column that I was going to
resign from the Daughters of theAmerican Revolution, that I could no
(44:19):
longer be a part of an organizationthat would condone such behavior,
that would have that kind of practice.
And I did.
And I helped to arrange for MarianAnderson to sing instead on the steps
of the Lincoln Memorial to a crowd of.
Over 75,000 Americans of allraces and ages and genders.
(44:42):
And I'll tell you and I knowthat it's available even now.
You can see this, thefilm of this concert.
And when she is singing My Country Kiss ofthe Sweet Land of Liberty of the Ice Sing,
I guarantee you will not have a dry eye.
You know, I did not, I arrangedto help arrange that concert and I
did not attend that concert myselfbecause I was concerned that.
(45:05):
If Eleanor Roosevelt showed up at herconcert, that the focus would be on
me, instead of on Marian Anderson,who deserved the limelight and all
of the attention for that concert.
Just as the way that I was not the centerof attention at my own wedding, because
all of the attention was focused on TeddyRoosevelt, I knew what that felt like.
And so I stayed away, but Iwatched it on film, and it was
(45:26):
the most magnificent sight.
And you know, later, it was onlyseveral years later that I resigned
from the DAR, but then I actuallyjoined the NAACP, and I'm very
proud of that organization myself.
Are there a lot of whitepeople in the NAACP?
Yes, there are I don't know whatyou would mean by a lot and I
don't also have those numbers.
(45:47):
But there are always, and thank Godthere always have been, white people
joining hand in hand to march with anddemonstrate with people of color, the
Negroes, the Blacks in this country thatare so overdue for enjoying the same
rights that we all take for granted.
So yes, there are very many of us.
And I'm so very proud of our president,of President Kennedy right now, also
(46:09):
embracing the civil rights movement.
I'm so proud of thewhites that march with Dr.
Martin Luther King, when he isdemonstrating to the rest of the country
how freedom for all is long overdue.
When you think of civil rightsleaders, you've mentioned
Martin Luther King twice now.
Is he the one that youwould say is your favorite?
Or is there somebody thatyou admire more or as much?
(46:32):
Right now there is nobody I admiremore for his eloquence, for his
humility, for his compassion.
I think no one, and just hearing oneof his speeches also brings tears
to my eyes and raises goosebumpson my arms because he is such a
magnificent gift to this movement.
And so I think there is noone that I would admire more.
(46:53):
I almost equally admire his wife, too, forher support and her undying Partnership.
That she, that a beautiful marriage andI think having served with Franklin,
I also admire his wife very much too.
, there is no one greater rightnow in this country working
for the civil rights movement.
In your family and in your marriage,there's always been enough money.
(47:16):
You could have just sat home anddone none of this and sewed dresses.
Is that true?
Well, yeah, certainly we would havehad enough to live on, certainly.
What joy does that bring?
. So, I guess my question is this.
You obviously didn't do that and that'swhy you're so revered in our time.
My, I guess my, one of my questions thatI want to ask is, looking at all that you
(47:40):
accomplished and, , it's just magnificent.
It's ten lifetimes.
It's a hundred lifetimesfor a normal person.
Could you have Accomplishedmore if you were a man?
That's a very provocative question, andI would probably at this stage in my
life say yes, because a man is given theopportunities to have that kind of power
(48:04):
and those kinds of positions, and perhapseven more could have been accomplished,
but then I'm not certain how manypopulations might have been left behind.
I think being a woman has enabledme to connect on a very Deep and
personal level with the half ofthe population that is female.
(48:24):
So, yes I suppose that I could havepossibly accomplished more as a man,
but I'm not sure if all of thoseaccomplishments necessarily would override
what we've been able to accomplish.
I'm going to ask you one more question,and I am so thankful for all your time
today, because I don't know how anybody,man, woman, could have accomplished
more in a lifetime as you did.
(48:45):
It's just magnificent, and I guess , wehave a tendency to be critical of ourself.
There's probably something that you wishthat you could still get done, or would
have finished or done a better job with.
Is there anything that you lookback that you wish you would
have done something more with it?
And also, if you were going to leavea message to the women of this time,
(49:05):
because there'll be a lot of womenthat listen to this, what would you
want to say to them to encourage them?
Well, first of all, as far as regret Ido regret that I allowed my mother in
law to take away from me the opportunityto be a real mother to my children.
And I have regrets that all mychildren Even though Sarah said
there will never be a divorce, all mychildren, all five of them, have gone
(49:27):
through divorces, some more than one.
Several of my children have alsostruggled with alcoholism and many
disappointments, and an inability, to make their dreams come true.
And I would like to think thatperhaps if I had been there, I
have been a more active mother.
I could have changed the course of theirlives too, so I deeply regret that.
I also deeply regret the fact that I wasunable to convince Franklin to welcome
(49:51):
and offer asylum to the refugees afterthe war and to do more to spare the lives
of the millions that were slaughteredin those camps and by the Nazi regime.
And I have a deep regret, a deepsorrow about that, that I was unable
to convince the government to do that.
to show more compassionto the Jewish refugees.
(50:13):
And as far as what I would say to, tothe women today I was always terrified
because I knew how very often I wasperceived and and criticized and such.
And yet I would say to, towomen, you must always do that
which you think you cannot do.
And also I found to be very good advice,do something every day that scares you.
Do something every day that scaresyou to always challenge yourself.
(50:37):
And I believe truly that thefuture belongs to those Who believe
in the beauty of their dreams.
Your life was meant to be lived.
Mrs.
Roosevelt, I am so thankfulfor all your time today.
Is there anything else you'dlike to say before we finish?
. I cannot believe how the time has flown.
(50:57):
Speaking with you has been a verygreat joy for me and a privilege.
And I hope that I lived upto the reputation of using
a smartphone correctly.
And I hope that somedaywe will meet again, Tony.
It has been an utmost pleasure.
So after listening to this, youhave to ask yourself what wasn't
Eleanor Roosevelt involved in.
She was a member of the daughters ofthe American revolution until they
(51:20):
didn't want to keep up with the times.
She was a member of the NAACP.
She worked with the United nations todraft a declaration of human rights.
For the whole world.
And of course in her spare time, shemay have dated her bodyguard because
remember he was quite good lookingand she also probably had an intimate
relationship with Lorena Hickok.
(51:41):
Eleanor Roosevelt was a woman livinglife to the fullest , And as she said,
doing things that scared her and livinglife without judgment of either the
things that she could or couldn't do,or the people that she would spend her
time with, as far as her husband, thepresident, I'm sure he was a brilliant man
and he goes down as a very highly ratedpresident in history, but remember he
(52:02):
couldn't walk, he couldn't travel easily.
And Eleanor was his legswhen he needed them.
How many of hisaccomplishments were possible?
Because he had a strong partnerthat never left his side, despite
his physical and moral weaknesses.
It's hard to imagine now, historywould have been different without
Eleanor Roosevelt's compassion,wisdom, and work ethic to use
(52:24):
her privilege to raise others.
That were born with none.
Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that when you tella friend about the calling history
podcast, an alien, quietly size, andthen cancels their invasion plans.
I'm Tony Dean.
And until next time I'm history.
Hey there it's Tony.
Where's that guy it's usually righthere, that, that guy with the perfect
voice that does that wonderful intro.
Well, the reason he's not on yet isbecause I wanted to say thank you for
another great year of calling history.
. We've had so many fantastic interviewsand there's going to be more next year.
This is the last one of this year.
But next year we might beadding something different.
(00:20):
I don't think it will happen untilabout mid year, but some of these
people may be having conversations.
With each other, which couldbe very, very interesting, but
you'll hear more about that.
Next year until then.
I just want to say thank you for allthe people that sent money for this.
I'm just kidding.
Nobody's sending any money.
Cause we didn't ask her any.
But very seriously, thishas been a lot of fun.
And I'm excited to see who weget on the podcast next year.
(00:44):
So this is it.
The next podcast will be.
On Wednesday.
January 1st, 2025.
Happy holidays.
And here's the guy
(01:21):
Welcome back to part twoof Eleanor Roosevelt.
In the last episode, we learnedthat Eleanor is capable of doing
good, regardless of the amountof criticism that she receives.
We learned that presidentRoosevelt has a wandering eye and
occasionally a wandering hand.
And we learned that his motherwas probably the scariest
mother-in-law in history.
(01:41):
In this episode, Eleanor is going totell the story of what caused the United
nations to give her a standing ovation.
She'll tell the story of how a groupof airmen were unable to fly and
fight in the war until she demandedthat one of them take her for a ride.
And then she's going to talk quite a bitabout lesbians in the democratic party.
So what happened after that?
Because now, , you have all these childrenand You guys were in love at some point,
(02:05):
but now that situation seems fracturedand yet you don't leave him which now I
can see why this happens first of all Itwouldn't be appropriate from the divorce.
Sarah wouldn't allow it.
She's gonna cut everybody off But alsothere's a connection because you know He's
still always the guy that walks up to youwhen nobody else would, and you're both
(02:26):
brilliant, and you have so much to give.
So does your relationship change there?
Is it now a partnershipinstead of a marriage?
It was absolutely a partnership, anda very effective partnership, and
he always respected and trusted mychoices and my input and my influence
(02:46):
and very often he would joke.
, he sometimes used, my presence or myinfluence to explain away something
that he wanted to do politically anyway.
If it was something that wasgenerating disapproval, he would
say, Well, I can't help it.
You know my Eleanor.
Blame poor choices or any criticisms onme and it's something that we encouraged
(03:09):
or something that we worked on togetherwas a very great success and he would
go and then he'd be proud and he said,well, you know my Eleanor and she gets
things done and he always included mein very many of the decision making.
And the private meetings and thestrategies and such, he still
trusted my opinion and my input.
And very often, as I said earlier,he was unable to always truly follow
his heart because he was a politicianwho had to make sure that things
(03:32):
that he proposed would actually makeit through Congress and become law.
And so he was sometimes restricted, butwe had a remarkable relationship and it
just also forced both of us to find adifferent kind of and I would say love,
a different kind of love in other places.
And there's so many different kindsof love among friends, and among
(03:53):
colleagues, and among married people.
People that I still will always saythat we truly did love each other.
We just didn't love each other in thesame way that married couples usually do.
But we were very happy andconcerned about each other.
And when he passed, Isaid, the story's over.
I said, all right, I'mno longer first lady.
Now I will have nothing to do.
(04:15):
I am going to move out of the white house.
And I almost felt like Ihad to give up everything.
And I believe it was at Franklin's funeralwhen I met with the now president Truman.
And he came up to me and he said, Mrs.
Roosevelt, I'm so sorryfor this great loss.
What can we do for you?
And I thought back, Madame Sinfestra,always make yourself useful.
(04:38):
And I said, no.
What, Mr.
President, can I do for you?
And I think he was a little takenaback by that because I don't
think he knew what to do with me.
I have the reputation already of beinga meddler and a troublemaker and such.
, one time he suggested that I might wantto consider being on his presidential
ticket for reelection as vice president.
And I don't feel to this day, no, if hewas joking or if he was serious, but what
(05:01):
he did do for me is he found me a new job.
And after the war was over.
There was this wonderful organizationcalled the United Nations, bringing all
of the countries together as partners inorder to preserve peace in this world.
And it was very new, and he put me on acommittee, it was Committee 3, I believe
it had something to do with with socialissues and such, and I think he was
(05:25):
hoping that I could cause no troublethere, or any kind of controversy.
And yet, it was on that Committee 3at the United Nations that I was able
to work on what I truly feel is thegreatest accomplishment, achievement
in my life, and again, a privilege tobe able to work on it, was to address
the situation of refugees who had losttheir homes and , their lives as they
(05:49):
knew it, all of their security, theirfamilies, address the issue of refugees.
And address the issue of theworld working together as separate
countries to maintain world peace.
And that we drafted the UniversalDeclaration of Human Rights.
And that document, I believe that was1948 when it was written and finally
(06:09):
ratified and there was great resistancefrom the communist bloc countries
who didn't want any part of this.
This declaration that statedthat it is not just Americans.
That are entitled to life andliberty and pursuit of happiness.
It isn't just Americans who are entitledto homes and to food and to medical
care, but those rights are human rights.
(06:30):
God given rights forpeople all over the world.
And if a country has the resources andthe capability to share or to take care
of or to protect the rights of others whoare less able, it is our responsibility,
to reach out and make sure that everyoneon this planet enjoys those same natural
rights, those same natural freedoms.
And that is the work ofwhich I truly am most proud.
(06:53):
In fact, when I finally read thatdeclaration in 1948, I even received a
standing ovation from the United Nations.
And , you can't see my face right now,but I'm smiling with a very large smile
because I am so proud that we wereable to see that document through.
And right now that Declaration ofHuman Rights has been the the basis
for very many constitutions of newlyarising nations all over the world.
(07:15):
. Now, did you help write thisdocument or did you just play a
role in, , getting it ratified?
We definitely had a committee, butI did by far the most actual writing
and the most advocating also tothose who were skeptical about such
a document coming into existence.
So, no, I pretty much receive a lotof the credit for writing and for
saying that this was ratified throughcareful negotiations and diplomacy.
(07:38):
What are these human rights?
Well, first of all, that it isthe government's responsibility.
provide homes, and to make sure thateveryone has enough to eat, that everyone
has access to care, that anothercountry does not have the right to invade
another country and subjugate them.
So it is basic human rights that entitledto anyone who's living in this world.
(08:00):
To be treated fairly and to beinsured of safety and protection and
freedom and religious freedom as well.
It protects all of these countriesagainst dictators and so I think that is
why you see so often in, in this modernworld criticism when the United States
tries to help some of these countriesthat are suffering and are in need
(08:21):
and aren't enjoying those same rights.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rightsstated that is our responsibility and
we all signed that and agreed to that.
And yet, somehow the influence, thereputation of this document is It's a
little bit now that we're in modern timesand as we see the world is becoming more
and more complicated and as much as wetry to address some of these issues all
(08:42):
around the world, some people feel thatour resources too are somewhat limited.
We can't always do everythingthat we know we need to do.
So which are the countries inyour time that were against this,
? Well, certainly Russia, the Soviet Union, wanted to have the right , to
annex any kind of property orinvade any kind of country that they
saw was somehow entitled to them.
(09:03):
So those would be some.
There were also some African countrieswho were also against signing it
because they were uh, corruptmonarchies or dictators and such,
but mostly it was the eastern bloc.
, those were the yearsleading into the cold war.
And , communist influence was very strong.
And clearly their purpose was oneto I believe included domination of
(09:24):
Eastern Europe and maybe even beyond.
sad to know that Russia has notshaken off that desire to invade
and exploit human rights yet.
Well, that's just truly breaks myheart I would have hoped that we would
have learned our lessons by now andyet so often we see that history just
continues to repeat itself and we continueto rather learn from our mistakes.
(09:47):
We just seem destined tomake them again and again.
Well, hopefully we'llfigure it out at some point.
Well, that's my prayer.
Yeah, I want to ask you a questionabout Franklin for a second.
So when I think about President Roosevelt,I think of him as a brilliant man.
I think of him definitely as a politician.
You're describing him as the kindof person who's got to keep, , the
(10:08):
different factions happy so that,he can continue to get things done.
So, I think it's brilliant.
It's fairly easy to put a label onhim, what his position is in your
partnership, but what would your label be?
Were you his conscience?
Were you his coach?
Were you the person that pushed him?
Were you the idea person?
, how would you label yourselfin that partnership?
(10:30):
I love that you use the word consciencebecause there were other political
analysts who would say, or writers thatwould say he was a pragmatist, practical,
get the work done, , get the end result.
And I was the absolutist and,the activist, but the absolutist
that had the conscience.
, to do what I think was right,knowing I'll be criticized,
(10:51):
but , there were no repercussionsfor me other than being criticized.
It didn't affect , my standingor it didn't affect my life the
way it would affect Franklin.
So yes, I like to think his politicalconscience, I was kind of, like the
trial balloon for certain issues.
And I was blown up, , and it was methat caused the stir, if it was me that
planted an idea that the country wasn'tready to accept yet, if I blew up, it
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really didn't affect him politically.
We were truly, , great partnersthat kind of balanced each other out
. you were talking about World War II and when you were spending time with the
troops, there are some amazing storiesof how you handled those meetings.
, a lot of times politicians will,, they're trying to do a photo op or
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they're trying to get some good press.
You know, I went and saw theveterans, but it appeared as if
you really took your time and youwent from one person to the next.
Can you tell me a little bit aboutyour experience with wounded veterans?
You're absolutely right.
I mean, certainly there were somephoto opportunities, but especially
going into the hospitals where I wouldsee the wounded and you're right.
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I went from bed to bed and veryoften I may even become a little
bit choked up when I recall thesetimes when I Took their hands in
mine, or I would put my hand onthe face of a man who had dedicated
his life in service to his country.
I'd put my hand on his face in the sameway that perhaps his mother would if she
(12:16):
had been there, and I tried to look intothe eyes and tell each one of them that
America truly appreciated their service.
And my heart would always beso incredibly full when I had
the opportunity to do that.
I think it was 8, 000 miles, perhaps,like covered once again, Franklin
was unable to travel with hispolio, with his physical condition.
So there was another time I became thelegs for him and made those trips to
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Northern Africa and in the South Pacificand all over and not even just visiting
the wounded and the sick and takinghome words that they left with me.
To take home and share with their lovedones, should they not make it home?
How did you deal with that?
When you go through good times in yourlife, you also have to be appreciative
(13:00):
of the bad times, the hard times.
And I think times like that, it make mestronger to have seen death as a child
with my own mother and my own father.
And to have suffered heartache and to havesuffered rejection and criticism and such
and hardship in so many ways, I think thatit helps you better have the strength and
courage to fall back on when you are facedwith something that's equally challenging
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and something that's very difficult.
It helps you to go forward and toface your fears and to face those
excruciating experience with aresolve that was built perhaps in
you from infancy or from childhood.
And no, you're right, it does notget easier, but you have to always
do what you think you cannot do.
It is imperative.
And it is a valuable gift for those menand women to see that I also could feel
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their pain and that I was genuinelyheartbroken and equally inspired.
So speaking to the wounded or speakingto just even the troops in general,
trying to be encouraging and tryingto let them know how deeply grateful
this country was for their service.
I traveled so very much and Ienjoyed each one of those trips.
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I do like the one anecdote that AdmiralPerry, I suppose was at the South Pole
and, and there was a anecdote that healways set an extra plate at his dinner
table just in case Eleanor should stop by.
I also sometimes was distressedwhen I heard of minorities not
being treated equally in the armedservices and not receiving the
(14:33):
respect and such that they did.
There was a group of airmen, fighterpilots, the Tuskegee Airmen, who are
a group of colored fighter pilotswho are highly skilled and incredibly
devoted to serving their country.
And they had passed all of the trainingand all, and scored the highest on
all of the academic tests and such.
Because of their race, they werenever given an assignment that
(14:56):
actually took them into the airto fight , the Nazi Air Force.
And so I said, I have to goand I have to visit these men.
And I went to their training base, theTuskegee Airmen, and I said, I want to see
the planes and I want to meet the pilots.
And I also want to go up for a ride.
(15:17):
And so I met some of the verydistinguished and wonderful men
that were part of that unit.
And when it , came time for me togo and actually go up in one of the
airplanes they were ushering overone of the white officers and such.
And I said no.
I want to go up in the airplanewith that gentleman over there.
And it was a young black man.
And he was so excited.
I could see the light in hiseyes when I pointed him out.
(15:38):
And I said, I want him to takeme up for a ride in the plane.
And I want to make sure.
But there are plenty ofphotographers around that are
going to capture this moment.
And indeed we did.
We went up in the airplane.
We circled around a few times.
And when we came back, there werevery many photographs of me with
that young Tuskegee Airmen that werecirculated in all the newspapers.
And after that, in calling attention tothe fact that they had never been given
(15:59):
a serious mission to fly, after thatthey finally did, and oh, They proved
that they were so capable and so highlyskilled, they were a terrific asset to
the armed forces during those years.
And I'm very proud that , bytaking a photograph, I had the
tiniest bit of helping them provededicated Americans they truly were.
(16:22):
, it just seems that you find thesegroups that have been forgotten or
marginalized or, and you just jumpin and you say, okay, look, these
are people that have something togive and I'm going to go in and I'm
going to give them a chance to give.
This reminds me a lot of The pressconferences that I read about
(16:43):
that you did at the White House.
Can you tell a little bit about that?
Well, I know that from thetime I was First Lady I
wanted to advocate for women.
So I did ask that all of my pressconferences would be filled with Women
journalists, and I did stick to that forquite a while, and I encouraged them.
I appreciated them.
And I think some of my bestinterviews were those that were
(17:04):
written by female journalists.
And I'm also very tickled when I hearthat women enrolling in journalism school
just increased , after they saw thatso many women were actually involved in
journalism interviewing Eleanor Roosevelt,and I was happy to have a part of that.
I wasn't the First Lady to conduct her owninterviews and her own press conferences,
but I did take full advantage of them.
I had another wonderful way andopportunity to actually connect
(17:28):
with the American people, and thatwas, I believe, in about 1936,
I was asked to write a column.
A daily column called My Day.
People wanted a glimpse of whata day in the life of Eleanor
Roosevelt was actually like.
And I think initially, they wanted meto write about fashion or what people
were wearing at the White House.
(17:48):
And as I said, I had noinkling what that was about.
One of the earliest headlines alsothat I had to endure when I was
First Lady was It was an Augustday and the headlines were Mrs.
Roosevelt is wearing asleeveless dress in public.
And truly, that was a, that wasso controversial at that time.
It was August, it was hot, I had on asleeveless dress and that was completely
(18:08):
inappropriate for a first lady.
You know, I think they would have reallybeen shocked if they knew I didn't
have stockings on that day either.
So I, I always believed that anybodywho spent more than 10 on a dress
was truly wasting their money.
And the other thing I believe that Icame to see that they wanted me to write
about in the my day column was aboutbanquets and food and such and I also
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never hardly even attended a party,let alone throw a party or banquet.
And I was a terrible cook.
I had no idea how to cook.
And so I had to actually hiresomeone to be the cook, the
official cook for the White House.
And I had met this lovely womanduring the days of the Depression.
and in the early days she was selling.
Baked goods on the sidewalk.
(18:49):
Her name was Henrietta Nesbitt, and shewas so kind and so gracious that she
let me Have little samples of the thingsthat she was selling that I brought her
into the White House as the chief cookand she did a magnificent job cleaning
and organizing between you and me.
The kitchen at that time wasrather filthy and disorganized.
(19:09):
But unfortunately, she wasnot a very good cook at all.
We tended to have a lot of runny eggsand tapioca and gelatin and things like
that it was actually pretty revolting.
And poor Franklin, who would used tobe, have a very taste for fine cuisine
was very patient and accommodatingduring those years that poor Henrietta
(19:31):
was serving up this terrible food.
You know that during those early yearswhen she was running the kitchen,
most people who invited to the WhiteHouse for a banquet or a dinner.
They knew it was a good ideato eat before they came.
And that's true.
But on the other hand Are you kidding me?
No, just look up any of the recipesof the White House at that time.
(19:54):
We were not known for very good food.
But at the same time, , there was alsothat part of both Henrietta and my part
that recognized How could we, in goodfaith, serve expensive delicacies and
sumptuous banquets and such with allwith steak and all these delicacies?
(20:14):
How could we do that knowingthat the rest of the country was
struggling through this depression,barely able to buy a loaf of bread?
Yeah.
How hypocritical.
So then we also said, well, we intendedthese dinners to be, budget worthy and
saving people money and giving you anexample of how you could eat and you could
be sustained on meals that could be puttogether for less than a dollar a piece.
(20:38):
And so that was also kind of our mantra.
We never wanted to be as much as wecould afford to, and as much as the
precedent had been set for almost likeroyal treatment at the White House.
We always felt that all ofthe rules apply to all of us.
And it was unfair to ask the Americanpeople to sacrifice it to do with less.
If we were unwilling to do it ourselves,
thinking that any good leader would have.
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Unfortunately, I don't know if it'sall that popular of an approach,
but I will say this too, that, thatactually was also what we thought
about what I was thinking about.
When we were found ourselves in WorldWar II and we won World War I, but I
don't think America truly learned fromWorld War One, and that was because
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those that were left at home did notfeel a part of the war effort at all.
And so when World War Two broke out, andyes, I made it one of my priorities to
go and visit all of those men and womenthat were serving all over the world.
We also made it a priority to supportthose that are on the home front.
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We encourage people toplant victory gardens.
Victory gardens so that people wouldlearn how to grow their own food and
vegetables so that the food processingplants and the factories could concentrate
on providing the food to send overseasto all of the troops that we had all over
and make that the most important focusfor them and not worry so much about what
we would find in our own grocery store.
(22:02):
We could grow it ourselves.
We haven't had a victory garden.
It wasn't particularly successful, butwe have one right on the front lawn of
the White House to show an example thatwe're all in this together and asking
the American people to ration some ofthe everyday goods in their own home
that could be diverted or saved and usedto producing weapons or ammunition that
(22:25):
could again be sent to those troops.
There were stores that saidbring your fat cans in here.
meaning not that you might think it meantat first your fat cans but cans coffee
cans would be filled with leftover fat andgrease that people have used in cooking
and those could be used in factories theycould be recycled and everyone recycled
things like foil in and metals and largeand We even recycled at the White House.
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We had to also be in thistogether and set a good example.
And I remember the Christmases thatwe certainly we did not use all of the
German made ornaments that would normallydecorate a Christmas tree, but we also
did not use tinsel because it seemed likea waste of that precious thin foil that
could be sent to factories and reusedfor something that was truly purposeful
(23:11):
and for the benefit of our troops.
And all of the Americans worked in thistogether, the recycling and the victory
gardens and encouraging the women.
to learn new skills, so that they couldtake the places of men in the factories.
And how liberating that was forwomen to feel that they too had an
investment in this war struggle.
(23:32):
And they could also celebrate with themen equally when we finally saw victory.
Do you have a staff, personally,of 10, 000 people that help you?
Execute all of your causes?
I know it, I, the staff of the WhiteHouse alone is probably four or five
hundred and I know that because allyear long I pick up little trinkets
(23:55):
and little gifts for all of them.
There's a Christmas room in the WhiteHouse where I stash gifts so that I can
give them personal gifts on Christmas Eve.
And so I know that there's at least fourhundred just in the White House alone.
So I suppose, yeah.
But if you look at all of these effortsand all of these agencies, yes, it
probably would go into the thousands.
And because all of these policies andall of these issues go throughout the
(24:17):
entire country, not just in Washington, D.
C.
as well, the entire country is unified,one together, and there's nothing
that brings the country togethermore than this kind of struggle to
save democracy and a struggle to keepfreedom alive and well in this country.
Yeah, there's no question about that.
I'm wondering if I'd read a little bitat some point about that you have some
(24:40):
strong feelings about Jewish people thathad changed quite a bit over the years.
What can you tell me about that?
I am very embarrassed to say that asa young person growing up , in upstate
New York and in a very privilegedsocial circle, had feelings about
minorities, about colored peopleand about Jewish people, that there
(25:01):
were certainly discriminatory,even racist inclinations that I had
learned from the time I was a child.
But actually, I believe it also isdue to Madame Sylvester who taught me
that all people are the same in theirhearts and in their souls and have equal
value and should enjoy equal rights.
And if I had one true regret in my timeas First Lady, it would be when I realized
(25:28):
how the Jewish people were suffering.
Under the Nazi regime and desperatelytrying to escape death and the
camps and all kinds of atrocities.
One of my deepest regrets is that Iwas not able to do more to give those
refugees asylum in this country.
There were.
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People that knew what was coming andthat knew we knew what was coming and
what was happening and yet we it tookso Very long for America to jump in
and really support our allies in theway that we had intended and especially
to welcome refugees That were tryingto escape not the party to welcome
them to our own shores I think becausethe end Antisemitism was so rampant
in our country, it still probably is.
(26:10):
And I don't know if I even want the answerto your, to that question if I ask about
what the future holds, but there wereactually a ship that was bringing Jewish
families to the United States for asylum.
And I don't know what theStatue of Liberty stands for,
if it doesn't stand for this.
I helped make arrangementsfor that ship to come.
And yet they were turnedaway at our borders.
(26:31):
And once again, it was certain.
Congressmen that were not ready toaccept refugees at all, and even more,
certainly not to accept what they sawas the negative, racist perceptions that
they had of people of the Jewish faith.
And they were turned back.
They were turned back.
And that ship had to return with thosefamilies heartbroken and disillusioned.
(26:54):
. But now prior to , , Madam Sylvestra, prior to you learning from her that
all people had value, you were raisedwith some of those racist beliefs.
That's what you were saying, right?
Absolutely.
I was saying we had what I wouldsay colored help when I was growing
up as a little girl and grandmotherHall's . And I had heard my aunts and
(27:15):
my uncles refer to them as darkies.
And we had grown up to never beingexposed to working with people from
other cultures or other races and such.
And so it takes a very long timeto Change those perceptions and
to change your whole outlook.
And again, it is embarrassing now tothink that is where we came from,
(27:36):
and yet at the same time, perhaps itcan be hopeful knowing that people can
change their perceptions and their,the way that they treat other people.
If you can go from one that was sogrossly racist and discriminatory to
an outlook that is we must save andwe must work for these people, then
perhaps that is something hopeful toknow that change is possible, channel.
(27:56):
Have there not been one or two people inyour life, instead of jumping into every
minority group and saying, how can Ihelp you, you could have gone the other
direction and been a racist, and probably,you would have known it was wrong, but
you just would have been raised that way.
Yes, and you also have to be gratefulthen for the people who initially
(28:17):
it sounds like were cruel or youwould might expect to have a negative
impact, such as my mother or in somerespects, even maybe Franklin because
he was disloyal in, in our marriage.
But yet.
All of those people in some way didshape the person that I became and shaped
(28:38):
the character and taught me lessons.
And you're absolutely right.
I think sometimes of my my cousin AliceRoosevelt, Theodore's Uncle Teddy's
daughter, my cousin was very bitterand we were close to the same age, but
she was very bitter because She alsohad lost her mother at an early age
and her father was also an adventurerand often gone on safaris and trips
(29:01):
and things and she felt resentfulthat she didn't get more attention.
And so she became a little bitembittered and she was one of my,
she was a thorn in my side, prettymuch, also arranging rendezvous
with Lucy Mercer and my husband.
She was always making fun of me and theway that I talk and impersonating me at
parties to get laughs with my friends.
It was very cruel.
(29:23):
And I suppose that if you have adifficult childhood, as you were
saying, Tony, you could go either way.
You could let that hate and thatvenom and those bad experiences shape
you and embitter you, or you canlearn from them and say, no, that's
not the way I want to live my life.
And again, it was Madame Sylvestersaying that happiness is a goal.
You can't make yourself be happy.
It only comes by serving others.
(29:44):
Good night.
Share that with very many people, I think.
If you're feeling unhappy or lonelyor discouraged make yourself useful.
Go and do something kind tosomebody else, an individual.
And not just writing a check, but actuallydoing something helpful to an individual.
And all of a sudden you will realizethat you feel a happiness that
(30:06):
you might never have experiencedbefore, certainly not in a long time.
There's no greater joy.
I've always been one to pitch in and tryto help in any way I can, as I did with
Franklin and unpacking his suitcases, andI actually, I had a wonderful gentleman
in my life when I was the wife of thegovernor, when Franklin was governor
of New York, and they decided as wifeof the governor, I needed a bodyguard,
(30:27):
and so I was assigned Earl Miller.
As my bodyguard when I was in thatrole, because they thought the wife
of the governor should be protected.
And he was another that I could probablysay left a footprint on my heart, because
he finally got me to enjoy He taught mehow to ride a horse and to drive the car.
(30:49):
As you said, I had my own little roadsterand I was supposed to have a driver and I
never wanted a driver as first lady or asa first wife of the governor, because it
was so much fun to drive that roadster.
My children used to say to me,mother, when you pull out into the
street in your roadsters, all theother cars like get out of the way.
And they all duck into the side streets.
And I tended to drive a little bitfast, but Earl Miller also taught
(31:10):
me how to shoot a revolver becausehe said if you're going to insist
on going out by yourself both as thegovernor's wife and as first lady, you
better know how to defend yourself.
So he taught me how to shoota revolver and I always kept
one in the glove compartment.
He taught me, Earl Miller taught me how toswim and how to finally, Enjoy children,
(31:32):
and it was too late for me to enjoy myown children because they were already
grown by the time we went into the WhiteHouse, but I so enjoyed my grandchildren.
And the entire third floor of the WhiteHouse was devoted to all of my children
and my grandchildren that visited veryfrequently and are still an important
part of my life, were very close.
(31:54):
, in going back to trying to be ofservice and always, , you want to do
things for the people that you love.
Well, even though Earl Miller wasthere to protect me and to spend
time with me and make sure that I wassafe, I would very often go to his
apartment and just clean up and tidyup a little bit because I wanted to
do something special for him as wellbecause he had showed me such kindness.
And he was also rather goodlooking as well, which certainly
(32:15):
didn't hurt that friendship.
This sounds to me like, like there mighthave been a potential relationship there.
Was there any kind of relationshipbeyond just friends there?
Well, I don't know if it's reallyappropriate for me to comment on that.
If you ask one of my sons they willsay, yes, that there was a relationship.
And right now I'm just going tochoose not to say anything at all.
(32:40):
And, and once again, I, there are alldifferent kinds of relationships and
intense relationships that can take verymany different directions, so we say.
Well, and speaking of that, it seemslike you had a really strong relationship
with Lorena Hickok, is that her name?
Lorena Hickok Hick.
was another one, yet another one,who left footprints on my heart.
(33:01):
You know, I first met her whenFranklin was being encouraged to
run for the presidency in 1932.
Because the nation turned theireyes to him as someone who not only
has the intelligence to addressthe Great Depression and how to
bring this country back on itsfeet, but also has the compassion.
I'm not going to do it.
(33:21):
And yet, at that time, I did notwant any part of being a First
Lady, because I had so much to do.
As I talked to you earlier, I wasinvolved in so many different things,
and I knew what a First Lady oftenlooked like, and that was not me.
I could not see myself in that role,and so I was less than enthusiastic
when Franklin was actually campaigning.
(33:42):
And it was Lorena Hickok, who was anAP reporter, who came to me after one
of those rallies, and she said, Mrs.
Roosevelt, we all know.
That you do not want to be a First Lady.
But if you are, you can be aFirst Lady unlike one that this
country has ever seen before.
You can be a voice for all the oppressedin this country that have no other voice.
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Women, young people,minorities, and the poor.
And she helped me take on this rolethen with a completely new attitude
that there were people in this countrywho needed me, or someone like me, to
not be afraid to speak out for them.
And she was a very great friend anda close friend when I really had
(34:27):
no one close to me at that time.
And she spent a lot of time withme together, and she actually did
even have a room in the White House.
And it was very close to my own room.
In fact, they were joining so thatwe could spend our evenings sharing
the events of the day and talkingabout what we needed to do tomorrow.
And she was a great confidant.
And I know that there are certainletters that are sometimes circulating
(34:48):
and they might suggest that there was.
A physical relationship, but I wantyou also to remember that I was
called a subversive for giving MaryBethune a hug and a kiss on the cheek,
and very often, women like to holdhands or to be close to each other.
That is something that womenare very comfortable doing, and
throughout history, women havehad those kinds of relationships
(35:11):
that aren't necessarily physical.
It's completely the kind of relationshipyou might be considering in, in
your future, in your modern world.
So I think that the theory wouldstill be out and I wouldn't feel
comfortable actually confirming if itwas one thing or another, other than
to know that I loved her very much.
And I was sad when she felt that she hadto resign from her position because we had
(35:33):
become such close and such dear friendsthat she felt she could no longer cover
me in the newspapers without a bias.
Because she really thoughtvery highly of me and I of her.
She was a, she was there for me in a veryprecarious time as First Lady, when I
truly needed someone like her to shoreme up and give me courage to continue.
(35:55):
That's very bold of her to come tosomebody like you and give you a pep
talk about what you could accomplish,considering the kind of things that
you did and the person that you are.
, she must be a really extraordinary person.
She is an extraordinary person, and I doknow that she has admittedly confirmed
the fact that she is a lesbian, aswere Marion and Nan who I worked with
(36:17):
during the 1920s, they were also alesbian couple who were very involved
in many of the democratic committeesand in many of the social causes that
we were working on during even the 1920s.
And yet That just happened to be true ofvery many of the women who did not have
families and had the opportunity to spendtime getting politically involved, didn't
(36:39):
have families, but took their time awayfrom those causes that had the resources
to devote to those causes and those issuesin the education and the experience.
And I think we are very grateful tovery many of those women who did take
on those issues during that time.
And Yes, many of them were lesbians,and yet they did some of the finest
work for the people in our country.
I will never regret or deny my closefriendships with all of those women.
(37:04):
In fact, it was a great relief to mewhen I finally, through the 1920s,
was able to build my own life.
Home, Val Kill, where I could buy myown furniture, decorate it in any way
I wanted, serve whatever kind of food Iwanted there, and invite my friends, like
Marion and Nancy, and all the other womenthat I had been working with at that time
(37:25):
to come and work on these things together.
So perhaps they were almost like my staffin those days, but I will have great love
and affection for all those women, nomatter what they do behind closed doors,
I really don't feel is neither my businessor anyone else's business for that matter.
Do you think that in a different time,if you had , wiped the chalkboard clean
(37:46):
of all your responsibilities and all yourcauses and even your marriage you just
wiped the slate clean and you just lookedat Hick Lorena, people called her Hick?
Yes.
If she were a man, is thatsomebody you could have married?
Oh, definitely.
I do believe that is an interestingquestion and one that is so far from
my consciousness and In 1961 butI believe, yes, that's very true,
(38:11):
thoroughly enjoyed each other's company.
And I think we made each other betterwomen, better people, and we were great
comfort to each other when things werestressful or when we were undergoing any
kind of criticism or difficulties at all.
And there were plenty of those.
I think we also would havemade very good partners.
I could see certainly that might havebeen a very successful relationship.
(38:32):
So, it seems like you getalong with , most people,..
Who do you not get along with?
Is there a group of people, , doyou have problems with Italians?
Or, is there anybody that youjust don't get along with them?
Personally, and because of my work,I tend to work with people that
admire and have the same mindset.
But if there were a particular groupof people right now that always get
(38:52):
under my skin a little bit, and I amalmost afraid to say this, but right
now some of the people that are servingin Congress , who have a different
agenda than making life better and saferand cleaner and safer for Americans,
people whose agenda seems to include.
Keeping the status quo because theyprofit so much from it, the people,
(39:13):
especially in some constituencieswho are perfectly fine with racism or
misogyny or keeping outsiders out ofour borders, those people frustrate me
and make me angry because that is notwhat American democracy is all about.
We are here for everyone inthis country , to enjoy their
(39:33):
rights and their freedom equally.
And I'm most angry at people in ourgovernment who have that kind of
outlook who work against any of theseprogressive issues and improvements
in our country because they are moreworried about what they can gain
and maintaining their privilegedlifestyle than they are helping others.
And for me, I can't even imagineperson who would have that kind of
attitude, especially when they'vebeen gifted and blessed with so many.
(39:56):
And so many extras, but that probablyfrustrates me as far as one person, I'm
having a difficult time thinking of oneperson I really had a problem with Adolf
Hitler and I also never quite trustedStalin, but there'd be very few right now.
And of course, Joe McCarthy was anotherone who I really, I think he did
great damage in our country and I'm soglad that he was finally routed out.
(40:19):
But other than that, I can'tthink of any one personally.
And now as I'm thinking, I keepthinking of others that pop up.
My cousin Alice was very hurtful.
But other than that, I can't thinkof anyone else who I have complete
distaste or I try not to holdanger in my heart, let's say that.
I mean, people do what they thinkthey have to do at the time and
sometimes we just can't figure outwhere they're actually coming from.
But we just always do whatwe can to make things right.
(40:42):
We do whatever little thing we cando to improve our own lives and
to improve the people that we are.
It is a real talent of yours, after alifetime of, , you said that somebody
called you an ugly , duckling,
, and then you said that you were calledgranny by, I think your mother, , and as
you go into politics with the presidentpeople are From my understanding,
(41:07):
they're constantly, , saying negativethings about your clothing, and again,
about your looks, and, , that you'renot paying attention to the things that
women should pay attention to, maybe,and yet, it just seems like that just
constantly just rolls off your back, andyou just have a real talent for that.
Well, I think if you get older and Iam approaching I'm sure I'm approaching
(41:30):
the end of my life, and I'm grateful forthose kinds of lessons, which have helped
me to realize that outside appearancesdon't count at all, and they don't say
anything about who that person reallyis, whether it's the color of their
skin or the clothes that they wear.
Or the, their facial structureand such, that all of those
things don't matter at all.
But it's the person inside that,and it goes back to the purity of
(41:52):
heart and the nobility of spirit.
Those are the things that mattermost in, in who a person really is.
And so I am grateful that when you are70 you, you tend not to worry about your
appearance because there isn't very muchyou can do about it at this age anyway.
But I've always just felt the happiestknowing that I made a difference
perhaps in, in someone's life.
Even if it's just one person's life,I think it makes your life worthwhile.
(42:15):
And so I always try to encouragepeople that no matter what their
age or what their vocation is orwhere their standing is in life,
but to try to do something new.
That makes you useful to someoneelse, to show someone else a kindness.
And if that is the rule by youlive by every day, I think that you
will definitely a life well lived.
(42:35):
Were you a member of the Daughtersof the American Revolution?
Well, that is aninteresting story as well.
Yes, I actually was, and that goesall the way back to being a woman
of society, a woman of privilege.
I mean, anyone would feel like theydeserved or that they were entitled to
be a part of that esteemed organization.
And as I served as First Lady and Ibecame aware of the inequalities in
(42:58):
our country, particularly when itcame to minorities, and I became more
involved in the civil rights movement,I also became a great fan of an opera
singer by the name of Marian Anderson.
Thanks, Ben.
And she was brilliant and beautifuland probably the most talented opera
singer that this country has ever seen.
. She had traveled all over theworld giving concerts before.
(43:19):
And she was invited to speak atConstitutional Hall in Washington, D.
C., and so lookingforward to that concert.
It was sure to be a sellout.
But the sponsors of that concert werethe Daughters of the American Revolution.
And they sent out a statement thatsaid there will be no Negro singer
(43:39):
ever performing at ConstitutionHall, and they canceled her concert.
Now at that time I was outraged,I was mortified, and yet I took
advantage then of the voice thatI had through the My Day column.
And I wrote about this in the My Daycolumn and said what an outrage this
is, what an injustice this is, thatin our day and age that we would deny
(43:59):
someone as talented as Marian Andersonthe opportunity to share her gifts
because of the color of her skin, And sopeople began to realize that, that this
was certainly an issue and one that wewere not proud of at all as Americans.
And I also announced in the, in thatmy day column that I was going to
resign from the Daughters of theAmerican Revolution, that I could no
(44:19):
longer be a part of an organizationthat would condone such behavior,
that would have that kind of practice.
And I did.
And I helped to arrange for MarianAnderson to sing instead on the steps
of the Lincoln Memorial to a crowd of.
Over 75,000 Americans of allraces and ages and genders.
(44:42):
And I'll tell you and I knowthat it's available even now.
You can see this, thefilm of this concert.
And when she is singing My Country Kiss ofthe Sweet Land of Liberty of the Ice Sing,
I guarantee you will not have a dry eye.
You know, I did not, I arrangedto help arrange that concert and I
did not attend that concert myselfbecause I was concerned that.
(45:05):
If Eleanor Roosevelt showed up at herconcert, that the focus would be on
me, instead of on Marian Anderson,who deserved the limelight and all
of the attention for that concert.
Just as the way that I was not the centerof attention at my own wedding, because
all of the attention was focused on TeddyRoosevelt, I knew what that felt like.
And so I stayed away, but Iwatched it on film, and it was
(45:26):
the most magnificent sight.
And you know, later, it was onlyseveral years later that I resigned
from the DAR, but then I actuallyjoined the NAACP, and I'm very
proud of that organization myself.
Are there a lot of whitepeople in the NAACP?
Yes, there are I don't know whatyou would mean by a lot and I
don't also have those numbers.
(45:47):
But there are always, and thank Godthere always have been, white people
joining hand in hand to march with anddemonstrate with people of color, the
Negroes, the Blacks in this country thatare so overdue for enjoying the same
rights that we all take for granted.
So yes, there are very many of us.
And I'm so very proud of our president,of President Kennedy right now, also
(46:09):
embracing the civil rights movement.
I'm so proud of thewhites that march with Dr.
Martin Luther King, when he isdemonstrating to the rest of the country
how freedom for all is long overdue.
When you think of civil rightsleaders, you've mentioned
Martin Luther King twice now.
Is he the one that youwould say is your favorite?
Or is there somebody thatyou admire more or as much?
(46:32):
Right now there is nobody I admiremore for his eloquence, for his
humility, for his compassion.
I think no one, and just hearing oneof his speeches also brings tears
to my eyes and raises goosebumpson my arms because he is such a
magnificent gift to this movement.
And so I think there is noone that I would admire more.
(46:53):
I almost equally admire his wife, too, forher support and her undying Partnership.
That she, that a beautiful marriage andI think having served with Franklin,
I also admire his wife very much too.
, there is no one greater rightnow in this country working
for the civil rights movement.
In your family and in your marriage,there's always been enough money.
(47:16):
You could have just sat home anddone none of this and sewed dresses.
Is that true?
Well, yeah, certainly we would havehad enough to live on, certainly.
What joy does that bring?
. So, I guess my question is this.
You obviously didn't do that and that'swhy you're so revered in our time.
My, I guess my, one of my questions thatI want to ask is, looking at all that you
(47:40):
accomplished and, , it's just magnificent.
It's ten lifetimes.
It's a hundred lifetimesfor a normal person.
Could you have Accomplishedmore if you were a man?
That's a very provocative question, andI would probably at this stage in my
life say yes, because a man is given theopportunities to have that kind of power
(48:04):
and those kinds of positions, and perhapseven more could have been accomplished,
but then I'm not certain how manypopulations might have been left behind.
I think being a woman has enabledme to connect on a very Deep and
personal level with the half ofthe population that is female.
(48:24):
So, yes I suppose that I could havepossibly accomplished more as a man,
but I'm not sure if all of thoseaccomplishments necessarily would override
what we've been able to accomplish.
I'm going to ask you one more question,and I am so thankful for all your time
today, because I don't know how anybody,man, woman, could have accomplished
more in a lifetime as you did.
(48:45):
It's just magnificent, and I guess , wehave a tendency to be critical of ourself.
There's probably something that you wishthat you could still get done, or would
have finished or done a better job with.
Is there anything that you lookback that you wish you would
have done something more with it?
And also, if you were going to leavea message to the women of this time,
(49:05):
because there'll be a lot of womenthat listen to this, what would you
want to say to them to encourage them?
Well, first of all, as far as regret Ido regret that I allowed my mother in
law to take away from me the opportunityto be a real mother to my children.
And I have regrets that all mychildren Even though Sarah said
there will never be a divorce, all mychildren, all five of them, have gone
(49:27):
through divorces, some more than one.
Several of my children have alsostruggled with alcoholism and many
disappointments, and an inability, to make their dreams come true.
And I would like to think thatperhaps if I had been there, I
have been a more active mother.
I could have changed the course of theirlives too, so I deeply regret that.
I also deeply regret the fact that I wasunable to convince Franklin to welcome
(49:51):
and offer asylum to the refugees afterthe war and to do more to spare the lives
of the millions that were slaughteredin those camps and by the Nazi regime.
And I have a deep regret, a deepsorrow about that, that I was unable
to convince the government to do that.
to show more compassionto the Jewish refugees.
(50:13):
And as far as what I would say to, tothe women today I was always terrified
because I knew how very often I wasperceived and and criticized and such.
And yet I would say to, towomen, you must always do that
which you think you cannot do.
And also I found to be very good advice,do something every day that scares you.
Do something every day that scaresyou to always challenge yourself.
(50:37):
And I believe truly that thefuture belongs to those Who believe
in the beauty of their dreams.
Your life was meant to be lived.
Mrs.
Roosevelt, I am so thankfulfor all your time today.
Is there anything else you'dlike to say before we finish?
. I cannot believe how the time has flown.
(50:57):
Speaking with you has been a verygreat joy for me and a privilege.
And I hope that I lived upto the reputation of using
a smartphone correctly.
And I hope that somedaywe will meet again, Tony.
It has been an utmost pleasure.
So after listening to this, youhave to ask yourself what wasn't
Eleanor Roosevelt involved in.
She was a member of the daughters ofthe American revolution until they
(51:20):
didn't want to keep up with the times.
She was a member of the NAACP.
She worked with the United nations todraft a declaration of human rights.
For the whole world.
And of course in her spare time, shemay have dated her bodyguard because
remember he was quite good lookingand she also probably had an intimate
relationship with Lorena Hickok.
(51:41):
Eleanor Roosevelt was a woman livinglife to the fullest , And as she said,
doing things that scared her and livinglife without judgment of either the
things that she could or couldn't do,or the people that she would spend her
time with, as far as her husband, thepresident, I'm sure he was a brilliant man
and he goes down as a very highly ratedpresident in history, but remember he
(52:02):
couldn't walk, he couldn't travel easily.
And Eleanor was his legswhen he needed them.
How many of hisaccomplishments were possible?
Because he had a strong partnerthat never left his side, despite
his physical and moral weaknesses.
It's hard to imagine now, historywould have been different without
Eleanor Roosevelt's compassion,wisdom, and work ethic to use
(52:24):
her privilege to raise others.
That were born with none.
Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that when you tella friend about the calling history
podcast, an alien, quietly size, andthen cancels their invasion plans.
I'm Tony Dean.
And until next time I'm history.
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