February 12, 2025 • 47 mins
In Part 2 of the 1876 conversation with George Custer, he will talk about the battle (or massacre) at Washita. He’ll explain why he rode onto the battle wearing a red scarf, and why he is unlikely to ever run for president.
Listen to the Calling History Podcast on Spotify, Google, Apple, or your favorite provider.
-----
Steve Alexander is a distinguished actor, author, and living historian renowned for his portrayal of George Armstrong Custer. His deep commitment to authenticity has earned him recognition as the "Foremost Custer Living Historian" by the United States Congress and the Senates of Michigan and Ohio. Alexander has appeared in over forty docudramas and films, such as the History Channel's "Custer's Last Man" and A&E's award-winning "George Armstrong Custer: America's Golden Cavalier."
He is the author of the quintessential 2010 biography "G. A. Custer to the Little Big Horn" and its successor, "Believe in the Bold: Custer and the Gettysburg Campaign." Steve and his wife Sandy reside in the restored Bacon-Custer home in Monroe, Michigan. To learn more or contact Steve go to georgecuster.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Welcome back to part two of George Custer.
In the last episode, we talked aboutCuster graduating last in his class
at West Point and being promoted togeneral at a very young age of 23.
On a side note, I was curious ifhe was the youngest general ever.
ever in the U. S., and I wassurprised that this is not the case.
The youngest general was aman named Galusha Pennypacker.
(00:52):
When I looked that up, I feltlike I was being punked, but
it does appear to be a fact.
In the next episode, he's going to tryto explain why he was not kicked out of
West Point even after receiving eighttimes the amount of demerits that would
normally cause a person to be dismissed.
He's going to talk about the Battle ofWashita or the massacre at Washita,
depending on which side you're on.
And he's going to answer the questionabout why he had a big, fancy red
(01:18):
scarf tied around his neck insteadof the standard military outfit.
Well, then it became more accurate andeach wound inflicted by the rifled 58
caliber Springfield devastated the enemy.
The person that got hit because chancesare it shattered the bone and they'd
have to lose a limb in the process.
(01:40):
If they weren't killed outright,then it would take two men that would
have to remove them from the field.
So you could effectively removethree people from a line a skirmish
line and that person probablywouldn't return to the front because
of the wounds that they suffered.
If they didn't die outright during theprocedure to remove their arm or leg, they
(02:03):
would probably just return to civilianlife and try to make do as best they can.
Gosh, that sounds awful.
Do you think that you and Grant, as faras leaders of men during the time of
the Civil War, if you and Grant had beenin the South, would the South have won?
(02:26):
Well, I don't put that much on myself.
I think that Grant was a great general,and he's my commander in chief, so I'm
not going to say anything negative, butI will tell you that he had a different
way of fighting that most people hadn'tverged on when he came into the forefront.
(02:47):
He was a no nonsense commander.
And we needed somebody likehim at that time in the war.
But isn't, isn't thathow you fought as well?
Maybe I'm drawing similarities thatdon't exist, but it seems to me that
Grant was not lacking in courageand would run right to the front if
(03:07):
necessary, , until he , eventually tookcomplete control of the whole army.
But it seemed like you were doingthe same thing, maybe even more so.
Am I wrong on that?
Well, I'd like to think so, but Iwould have to tell you that even
as my capacity as a brigadiergeneral, I still had to take orders.
So I couldn't make a decision on my own.
(03:29):
I had to go through chain ofcommand and I was a junior.
at the time.
I wasn't one of the high rankingofficers, so what was to my advantage,
to a large degree, is the men who werea command above me, who would place
me in the proper place at the righttime, and that's how I was successful.
(03:52):
As far as taking orders go, and I'mgoing to push back at this a little
bit with respect, but we go back toyou being young and you're at West
Point and you end up with these sevenor 800 demerits, which seems like
it's probably a record to this day.
And so it looks like, , at a very youngage, there were times where a lot of
(04:13):
times where you kind of did what youwanted to and push back against authority.
But even when you get into theposition of leading in these battles.
Aren't you also pushing back at authority?
Weren't you not courtmartialed a couple times?
Wasn't there one time where you were AWOLand you went to spend time with your wife?
So, do you take, you take orders,but it all, you kinda do what you
(04:35):
wanna do if you think it's rightsometimes too, is that not correct?
Well, I, you know, I, I can't reallyaddress the court martial thing of the
Civil War because it was prior to theCivil War when I was brought up before
court martial at West Point because therewere a couple of plebes, they're the new
(05:01):
entries into the academy that were atBeast Barracks, that's when we put up the
Tents on the parade ground on the plane.
And they were fighting over awater pump and I was officer of
the guard and I happened upon themand instead of separating them, I
told the other plebs to stand back.
(05:23):
Let's have a fair fight.
And lieutenants Hazen andMerrill arrested me and had me
brought before a court marshal.
And if it hadn't been for commandant ofcadets general Reynolds, I would have been
expelled from the academy and probablywould have ended my military career,
but they needed officers to go to thefront for the first stages of the war.
(05:48):
That court marshal was probably exceeding.
My duties as officer of the guard.
And it was just by Custer's luckthat I was able to get off from that.
My second court martial occurred whenI was on the frontier and yes, I did
(06:09):
leave, but I had permission to gosee my wife and there were trumped
up charges because of the failure ofHancock's expedition against the Sioux
in the Southern Cheyenne that I wasmade the scapegoat and I received.
A year suspension of rank and pay, but Ionly had to serve 10 months of it because
(06:30):
of the winter campaign that I was calledback to be a part of by General Sheridan.
So those were the only two times that Iever was brought before a court martial.
And so, you know, as far asother times that I was accused
of not following orders.
uh, technicality was that generalKilpatrick had ordered me to little
(06:54):
round top and devil's den, and I gotstopped midway by a commander who
asked for my cooperation and help, andbecause it didn't go bad, I was able
to help him thwart Stuart's attempt toturn the right flank of the Union Army.
(07:14):
I didn't receive a court martial, but Icould have for not following through on
those orders from General Kilpatrick.
So I guess I would tell you that, In mymind, I always justify what I'm doing like
anybody that I'm doing it for the good andhopefully I'm following through on orders.
I don't necessarily decide thatI'm going to disobey an order.
(07:39):
Generally speaking, you wouldsay that you were a person who
followed orders , unless it was acase where it was absolutely wrong.
Is that, would you agree with that?
I always followed ordersas best I could, yes.
What is his deal about Custer's luck?
Okay, so I've heard about Custer'sluck and you just said it.
Are you just lucky or are yougood or what is Custer's luck?
(08:01):
I don't, I don't know how to describeit other than being at the right place
at the right time and it just seemsas though sometimes I have to nudge
that luck a little bit but most casesthings have kind of fallen my way.
And even falling into bad gracesfor a time, I seem to always rise to
(08:22):
the top, somehow, someway maybe thegods of war are looking out for me.
they knew that I was somebody would becommitted and I would follow through that
(08:44):
if I said I was going to do something,I would kill myself attempting to do it.
. General Sheridan said I'm theonly man who never failed him.
Did you have a relationship with Grant?
Yes.
In fact General Grant and I,with my wife, Elizabeth, rode to
Washington in May of 64 when he tookcommand of the Army of the Potomac.
(09:06):
Actually, overall commandof the Union Army.
And we rode on the same train together.
And I was with him in Appomattox he wasriding with the Army of Potomac after
his promotion to four star general.
you were with Grant at thesurrender at Appomattox Courthouse?
(09:27):
Yes, yes.
And you're saying yourwife was there as well?
No, she was on the train when we wentto Washington in May of 64 when he took
command, when he took overall command.
you were at Appomattox Courthouse.
How many people were therewhen Lee surrendered?
Was it a big group or a small group?
(09:48):
Well, most of the officerson , General Meade and General
Grant's staff were in the room.
I stuck my head into theroom for only a brief moment.
And General Sheridan nodded to me and thenI left, it was in the Wilbur McLean house
where the surrender terms were signed.
I left the house and went out onthe porch and I saw my old cavalry
(10:12):
instructor from West Point whohollered at me from the yard.
That was Fitzhugh Lee, thenephew of Robert E. Lee.
And we began wrestling and ended up onthe ground and then when Robert E. Lee
walked out, he saw us rolling aroundin the yard and he kind of gave a stern
(10:33):
look to his nephew and pulled on hisgauntlets and instructed Sergeant Tucker
to bring Traveler, his gray horse, over.
And then he climbed on thehorse and nodded to me.
And I nodded to my nephew.
bandmaster, Major Axel, Charles Axel.
And he began playing Dixie as hewrote out of Appomattox courthouse.
(10:57):
And the rest of the unionofficers came out on the porch
and tip their hats to him.
uh,
involvement was that I was about to makethe last charge of the war when I was
halted by An orderly, bugler orderly fromGeneral Sheridan's staff told me to meet
up with him at the Wilbur McLean house.
(11:20):
So, I just received the flag of trucefrom a Major Sims Confederate officer.
Brought it across the lines.
He had it on a sword.
It was a crash towel that he had purchaseda week or two before in Richmond.
And it was white, so he had broughtthat across and said that Robert
(11:43):
E. Lee was meeting with GeneralGrant at the Wolverine Clean House.
So, we wrote off to join up with him.
And the table that GeneralGrant wrote out the terms of the
surrender was an oval pine table.
Stain pine table that General Sheridanpurchased from Wilbur McLean for 25.
(12:05):
It was a gold piece he'd kept in hisboot in case he had gotten captured.
He could buy his way out or, youknow, whatever contraband he needed.
He bought the table and presented itto my wife, who he had only, she was
the only woman that he allowed to ridewith the army of the Potomac towards
the end of the war and said, permitme to say, madam, there's scarcely
(12:29):
an individual who has contributedmore than your gallant husband.
And so I took that back homewith me when, when the war ended.
, so you.
Do you and your wife havethat surrender table?
You, you own that?
Yes.
Yes.
Wow.
I mean, that's, are there, I mean,that is quite a collectible to have.
(12:49):
Are there other things throughout thesewars that you've collected like this?
Things that are valuable to you?
Numerous, numerous smallitems, but that's probably our
pride is that surrender table.
It's back in Monroe, Michigan,at the home of my wife.
My parents live there now, but it wasthe home that my wife was born in, and
(13:11):
Judge Bacon, who passed away in May of66, ten years ago, he had that table
in the house and would allow peopleto come in and see it on occasion.
It was a showcase item.
You may want to hold on to that forfuture generations, because if you pass
that through generations, that's goingto be worth a lot of money someday.
(13:34):
Maybe you could put every generationthat comes after you through college
. I don't think it's something that we would probably sell.
It's a family heirloom now.
Yeah,
yeah.
No, that makes sense.
So what about this this battle at Wasaw?
There's a lot of good and bad pressabout this battle at Ouachita, where
there's rumors that there were a lotof, , Indians that you slaughtered.
(13:57):
And, what, what canyou tell me about this?
Well,
first of all the Indians that hadleft the reservations in the year
prior to that, most of 68, hadmurdered over 150 some settlers.
24 children and 4 womenwere captured and taken.
(14:18):
The bands had captured numerous livestockand horses , to the point that There was
an outcry that they needed to do somethingabout the raids that were taking place.
Most of these were led by theDog Soldiers, which were a
unit of the Southern Cheyenne.
That , they had captured upto some cases, 53 women and
(14:41):
children, 800 to 1, 100 horses.
And so they were keen onpunishing the Indians.
And as the time went on, Theweather started getting bad, and
it was decided that there wouldbe a winter campaign mounted.
(15:01):
And most of the old scouts andmountain men, men like Kit Carson,
, they discouraged pursuing Indians inthe, in the hostile weather, winter.
And General Sheridan felt like if he couldcall me back from my disciplinary leave,
that I could head up the 7th Cavalry.
(15:24):
And about that time, the 7th Cavalrywas coming into its own as being
an elite unit on the frontier.
And so we mounted the 7th Cavalry andleft out of Fort Supply in Oklahoma
territory around November, the end ofNovember 22nd, and pursued the trail
(15:47):
that led us into the Valley of theOuachita, just below the Canadian River.
And it was the villageof Chief Black Kettle.
The Indians who had been raidinghad taken sanctuary in his village,
and we did a dawn attack, whichresulted in the death of 103 warriors.
(16:08):
We captured 875 ponies thatwe were able to destroy.
the Indian brobes andgunpowder was also destroyed.
We put up the village.
We put two flames captured53 women and children.
(16:29):
And 103 warriors were put to death.
We lost three officers and 19enlisted men, but we were able to
cripple the Southern Cheyenne andsubsequently bring in the rest of
the Southern Cheyenne tribes, theApache, Kiowa, Comanche, and Arapaho.
(16:52):
We were able to return to the reservationand a lot of people who would talk about
this battle as a, a massacre of womenand children, had not ever encountered
that kind of warfare on the SouthernPlains, and it was such that it was easy
to criticize us, but it wasn't for thenumber of Indian lives that were lost,
(17:16):
but those that I was able to spare,that I became known as the foremost
Indian fighter on the frontier, becauseI effectively Brought an end to the
Southern Plains Wars when all the Indiansreturned to their reservations by spring.
Oh, so once that battle was complete, wasthat the end of the fighting for a while?
(17:37):
For the most part, yes.
Mm hmm.
They stayed on the reservations.
We used the 53 women and childrenthat we captured as leverage.
And I Went to some of the village aloneand met with some of the Southern Cheyenne
under the leadership of Stone Foreheadin the Lodge of the Medicine Arrow Keeper
(18:01):
and was able to secure the release ofAnnabelle Morgan and Sarah White who
had been held captive for about sixmonths captured along the Kansas border.
is it your strategy in war to makeit so violent and, and just so
unforgettable to be, , as aggressiveas you can possibly be as a deterrent?
(18:27):
Well, we are the last ofdiplomacy to be used, hopefully.
The diplomats can come to peacefulbefore we're used as a blunt instrument,
but when we do let slip the dogs ofwar we go in, and that's our job.
It's not a likable job, but it'sa job that we're glad to do.
(18:49):
As the military, we're doing what we'vebeen trained to do, and yet, if I can
make diplomatic inroads, I usuallytry to do that prior to a battle.
For Just to spare the lives ofthe men who are serving under me.
It seems like this battle, this,that, this Ouachita battle should be
(19:10):
called the, the Battle of the Ponies.
I, I don't understand whyput down 800 plus horses?
It was too difficult to try to herdthem, and I didn't want the Indians
to, to get access to the horses, sowe used all of the extra horses to
replace those mounts that we lost, andto make sure that the prisoners had.
(19:34):
And then whatever the excesswas, since we couldn't hurt them
effectively, we had to destroy them.
It was not something I lookedforward to, but it was the only
logical decision that we could make.
Makes sense, because if you leave them,you're leaving a problem for yourself,
because they're going to jump right backon them and they'll be right on your tail.
Right.
(19:54):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Something you hate to do, but ifthat's not done, then you and your
people, then the problem doesn't end.
General Sheridan had along with GeneralSherman, decided that we were to make
pulpers of the Cheyenne, and that wasthe only way that we could get them
to come back to the reservations.
(20:14):
And so, without their homes,Without their horses, they were
forced to return the reservation
This is going to be a little touchyquestion here right now and so you
got to forgive me if this is insultingbecause that's not my intention.
Sir, you have shown nothing butcourage and without people like
you, the country that I enjoy, itprobably wouldn't even be here.
(20:37):
So just understand, but itis a tough question to ask.
There are lots of rumors that Youand maybe even the soldiers abused
those women that were captured.
Is there any truth to that?
It
was never my knowledgethat there was any abuse.
Prisoners of wars are treatedaccording to the Geneva Convention
(20:58):
that was in Geneva in 57.
So we have rules of warthat we must follow.
And I never heard of any abuse.
But one of the things that You do findwith prisoners is they're going to
attempt to escape and sometimes strongerdiscipline is used in order to try to.
(21:24):
But once we got back to camp supply,they were turned over and they ended
up in stockade at Fort Hayes until theywere eventually released after the rest
of the tribe came to the reservation.
I'm not sure that there wasany abuse that took place.
Maybe they felt they didn't get enoughfood, but we were pretty much on
(21:48):
third rations by the time we returnto camp supply just because of the
weather conditions and, , whatwe lost, you know, in battle.
They, they captured much ofour haversacks and great coats.
So we were in need of theirbuffalo robes for warmth.
And there was probably some sufferingbecause of the frigid weather, but
(22:11):
I don't know of any abuse that I can
account
for.
Let me ask question about this battle.
, if you look at , the way that theAmericans are treating the Indians.
I mean, we make a treaty with themand then we break it because we, you
know, we want something that they have.
(22:31):
And then the Indians, as yousaid, come back and slaughter
a certain number of our men.
I mean, don't you think you'd dothe exact same thing if somebody
was encroaching on your land?
, wouldn't nearly every Americanreact the same way if somebody was
trying to take what was theirs?
I mean, why are we surprisedthat they would fight back?
(22:52):
Because we would do the same thing.
Well, I, I think the way I, Ilook at it through my prism is the
government met with the tribes whenthe purchase of Louisiana Territory.
It opened the West and to get accessand across that land, treaties
(23:15):
were made to provided annuities anddifferent things to satisfy the tribes.
And they were supposed to havefree passage through , that land.
During the free passage through theland, the Indians, by matter of coming of
(23:35):
age, this was their way, their culture.
They would horses, women,and other things from the
settlers crossing the land.
And then, because of the misunderstandingabout that, there would be reprisals.
And that would escalate until therewould be a conflict between different
(23:58):
tribes and the settlers moving acrossthat land that they were supposed to have
free passage, according to the treaties.
People said that the whiteman broke the treaties.
But probably there was timeswhen situations were taken into
their own hands and white men.
(24:18):
Seek out reprisals againstthe Indians and it escalated.
And new treaties had to be drawn, andso that, that created the problems, but
it was not in all cases that each groupthat crossed the frontier was attacked.
The Indians avoided the whiteman as much as they could, and it
(24:42):
was only small groups that wentinto an area that probably was
held by gangs that would attack.
And then it would be escalated to a forcewhere the military would be called in.
And those misunderstandingswent into a war.
Lieutenant Gratton fired on an Indianencampment over the dispute of a cow that
(25:06):
had been wandering away from a wagon trainand was killed and eaten by the Indians.
And when the owner demanded the returnof the cow, He couldn't be returned
because he was already dead and eaten.
And so, Lieutenant Grattan, ina high strung way, most of the
(25:27):
problems with the Lakota peoplewhen he attacked the village.
How many battles start with somethingthat was not initially intended?
I mean, you're talking aboutGettysburg, and you're saying
that started because of shoes.
And now we're talking this nextbattle starts because of a cow.
How many people have to diebecause somebody needs shoesers,
or somebody took a cow?
(25:47):
Misunderstandings, the human nature,and especially if you have two different
cultures, and it sort of escalates.
I often think that if I wereIndian, I would greatly prefer
to cast my lot amongst my people.
Those who would adhere to the freeopen plains rather than submit
to the confines of a reservation.
(26:07):
There to be the recipient ofthose blessed benefits thrown
in without stint or measure.
Hmm.
Yeah.
So, tell me about thisred scarf that you wear.
Why don't you just put a bigred X across your chest when
you're running into the battle?
It just seems like that is drawingfar too much attention to you.
(26:28):
Well, one of the things that I had asa handicap was being such a young age.
When I appeared on the scene, someof my junior officers an adjutant.
And so, in order to be seen or known whereI was at any given time during the battle,
(26:48):
I often designed my own uniforms and worethe red tie so that I would stand out.
And since I was taking a lot ofshots, and I mentioned about losing
11 horses shot from under me the men,In a manner of esprit de corps, tore
up their red underwear and startedwearing red ties to emulate me.
(27:13):
And we became known as the Red TieBoys throughout the rest of the war
and even on to the frontier thereare men showing esprit de corps, wear
the red tie in emulation of myself.
In fact, at one point there was a flood.
At Big Creek, just outside Fort Hayes.
And my wife and our cook, Eliza Brown,had to save some men who had been
(27:38):
washed away when there was a flash floodthat came and they went in the trunk.
My trunk, my wardrobe trunk, andgave away all my sailor shirts
that I'd wore during the war.
And so to replace them, my wife witha sewing machine, made me a, a red
bib front shirt fireman's shirt.
(27:59):
She knew that red was my favorite color.
And once the men started teasingher, especially my brother Tom,
that She was trying to collect onmy New York life insurance policy.
She gave the red shirt tomy striker, John Berkman.
And then we began, Tom and I,picking on her that she was
(28:21):
trying to get Berkman shot.
But the red was always a favorite of mine.
And let alone fact, is after thewar, on May 23rd, 1865, there was
going to be a parade in Washington.
It was called the Grand Review.
Then President Andrew Johnsonwas going to review the troops as
(28:42):
they rode by his reviewing stand.
And because General Sheridan wascalled to Texas, he put me in
charge of the entire Cavalry Corps.
Unbeknownst to me, the night beforethe parade, the men had gone in to
The city of Washington had boughtevery piece of red silk, red wool,
(29:04):
red felt they could get their handson and cut them up into red ties.
And they said there wasn't a fullUnion suit in all of the city of
Washington because all of the men ofthe Cavalry Corps were wearing red ties.
And I was riding a horse.
It was a thoroughbred horse,Bay, by the name of Don Juan.
(29:26):
And my groomsman, Johnny Sisko, had tackedout the horse that morning and brushed
out my uniform that I was going to wear.
And He had used a snaffle bitinstead of a curb bit on the horse.
So when I mounted Don Juan and took myplace at the front of the parade, as
I turned off of Constitutional Avenueonto Pennsylvania Avenue, just before
(29:49):
the revealing stand, about 50 of thesegirls in white dresses came up and
began pelting the troops with flowers.
And one girl had a big wreath that she wasgoing to throw about the neck of Don Juan.
I knew it was going to fallshort so I drew my saber to
catch it on the end of my saber.
And when I did, I slackenedthe reins for a moment.
(30:12):
And Don Juan took the cursnaffle bit and bolted.
And as the girls chanted, Custer!
Custer!
Custer!
I flew with my hat blowingoff my head past the reviewing
stand and everybody talked aboutthere's Custer stealing the show.
Of all the troops that weremarching in the parade that day
(30:35):
and all the dignitaries that werethere I got the headlines in the
paper that I'd with the parade.
I was able to get the horse undercontrol and return, and then I rendered
honors to the President and GeneralGrant and the rest of the staff, all
of the, Secretary of War and all of thedignitaries that were in the stands.
(30:59):
Not that I am questioning thatnone of this was intentional.
But , you are pretty good at gettingthe media to pay attention to you.
Is that not true?
Well, if that was my goal, you'vegot to understand that I, I spent
a year in Texas as a result of it.
That's not a jab on Texas, but rememberthat General Sheridan said, , if the
(31:22):
devil had Texas and hell, he would rentout hell and keep the fires in Texas.
So, what do you think , that thepublic misunderstands about you?
, if they were to buy my book, whichis, by the way, a best seller this
year my life on the planes, they'dget a little bit of an insight into my
(31:45):
character and into my thoughts of thecountry as well as the American Indian.
And realize that those who wouldbesmirch me that want me to be known as
an Indian hater is quite the contrary.
I have a great admiration forthe American Indian, and I have
a great love of our country.
(32:05):
If people were to read the book,
I hope they take that away from it, yes.
That's, okay.
I mean I put my, I put my heartout there, my soul in my writings.
Do you enjoy writing?
Yeah, you know, I, I didn't know thatI had that kind of a talent for writing
when I was traveling through the, thewar, and especially in the early years.
(32:28):
It was not unusual for me to stayup late at night, write 30 page
letters to my wife, but I found thatI had a fancy for the skills and was
asked to write for Galaxy Magazine.
And I also wrote for Turf Fieldand Farm Hunting Magazine that
(32:48):
I wrote some of my adventures.
And I found that I had somewhatof a flair for it and I enjoy it.
So often during the winter months whenI'm absconded in my room at Fort Lincoln,
I'm sitting there writing articlesto send back east for publication.
(33:09):
And so I began my memoirs of theCivil War, and I hope in the next
year or two to finish them up.
In fact It's just been suggested in thelast month when I was here testifying
I met with Red Path Lyceum Society andthey want to contract me to go around
(33:30):
to do Chautauqua give talks of mytime during the Civil War and some of
the early campaigns on the frontier.
And it would kind of supplementmy current salary that I'm
receiving as a Lieutenant Colonel.
? Why do you think that if youare so good with the media, and
because you are, you're so goodwith the media, they love you.
(33:52):
In fact, there are so manypictures of you in our time.
You are probably one of the mostphotographed people of your time.
. And the news when they're lookingfor news to report, it seems like if
they have choices to go through, andthere's somebody even maybe at a higher
rank, that maybe come your direction.
So, you're aggressive, you getthings done, like your work ethic is
(34:15):
excellent, you can be disciplined, youcan promote discipline with people,
but it doesn't seem like when you wereoutside of the military and you went
into business, that for some reason allthat didn't translate into business.
Were you not very good at business?
Well, the military hasbeen a good home for me.
Right after the war, I consideredgoing into civilian life.
(34:37):
I didn't really know what I wasgoing to do, but it was suggested
that I become a congressman for thestate of Michigan, my adopted home.
And after joining AndrewJohnson on his swing around the
circle, I saw how politics were.
And decided to, to stay away fromthat, that I didn't have the skills
(34:58):
appropriate to be a good politician.
And so I remained a soldierand my protecting of the
railroads has offered me.
Complimentary ticketsto travel by rail line.
So my wife and I, often in the wintermonths, when it's nothing on the
prairie to do, we come back east.
(35:19):
Attend plays and operas in New York.
, she likes to come back east.
My good friend, LawrenceBarrett, The Shakespearean actor
partners with Edwin Booth.
He comps me tickets to the theater.
I've, I've watched JuliusCaesar more than 30 times.
(35:41):
He's currently participating in Macbeth.
Tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in thispity pace from day to day until the
last syllables of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays havelighted fools to dusty death.
Out, out, brief candle, lifeis but a walking shadow.
A poor player who struts andfrits his hour upon the stage.
(36:04):
It is a tale told by anidiot, full of sound and fury.
You have seen that a few times.
Have you been an actor?
Well, I would have liked to.
I have to be an actor when I'm infront of my men because there are
times when I have to inspire them.
And I certainly can't tell themthat we are outnumbered by the
(36:26):
command that we're going to attack.
We have to inspire the men to say,you know, we're, we're going to, we're
going to whip these boys, you know,we're, we're going to take care of them,
otherwise they're not going to follow me.
I'm going to be the only horsegoing down the hill to attack.
Yeah.
If you're outnumbered and you tell theguys, whew, man, this doesn't look good.
I don't know if we're goingto be able to do this.
That's not going to turn out very well.
(36:48):
What can you tell me about thethe, there was an incident with
where you found gold somewhere.
And I, I don't know all thedetails of this, but you found
gold somewhere, and it was That was
two years ago in the Black Hills.
That was the Black Hills, okay.
Yes, what happened was, the yearbefore, I was helping the Northern
(37:08):
Pacific Railroad survey from Puget fromMinnesota to Phuget Sound, and we were
looking for a northern range to bringcommerce into the northern plains.
And because of that weran into some Indians.
And it caused a stir that created apanic, and the railroad was brought
(37:30):
to a halt, which subsequently causeda depression that the country is
still suffering from to this day.
And it happened that There was somespeculation that there might be some
gold deposits in the Black Hills,but that was treaty lands to the
Sioux, and the only reason for us togo into that land, sacred land, is
(37:54):
if we were to establish a stockade.
And so I was ordered to go into the BlackHills, but I also was keen enough to bring
along some prospectors and mineralistswho discovered gold in the grassroots,
enough gold that possibly could pay downthe debt that the country's in right now.
(38:20):
So an offer was made to me.
The tribes to purchase the black Hills for6 million and they refuse, they wanted
600 million and the government's not inthat kind of condition to pay that amount.
So that's a little bit of a sticky wicketright now, because with that discovery
(38:44):
of gold, the press got hold of it andthere's been an influx of prospectors
into the black Hills that they'reillegally crossing into the black Hills.
And all of last year, General Crook spent.
Removing those prospectors from the BlackHills in order to thwart an impending war.
(39:06):
Now, I was meeting in Washington withsome of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
in order to discuss the possibilityof upcoming campaign this summer.
To round up some of those recalterantSioux and return them to the reservations.
They have caused some mischief anda number of settlers have had their
(39:31):
livestock run off and a certainamount of deprivations that have been
taken in retaliation has escalated.
The tension so that it's a tinderboxup in that part of the Northern Plains.
So a suggestion that we mount amilitary expedition and return
(39:52):
the Indians to the reservations.
gold makes people crazy.
The Americans are just not goingto walk away from that and not
find a way to get that gold.
Well, it'll be partly up to the militaryto keep the people out of the Black
Hills until we can come to some sortof agreement with the Indian tribes.
That is our goal.
(40:13):
Is that not sacred land though?
Yes, but until we get them back tothe reservations in order to be able
to talk and use diplomatic meansnothing's going to be resolved.
It's hard to imagine thathaving a good outcome.
So what what's next for you?
Are you gonna run for president?
I mean, what do you, whatdo you see happening next?
(40:35):
I, I told you I have no politicalaspirations, but You know,
everybody says that rightbefore they run for president.
Well, I don't know that that's,that's in my near future.
I did have.
An idea that I'd like to be headof the Bureau of Indian Affairs
because I have a knowledge of theAmerican Indian and do well with them.
(40:58):
But Could that lead to apresidential in the future?
Possibly, but right now that'snot what I'm thinking of.
My hopes are, my wifewould like me to retire.
She feels I'm getting long in thetooth in the military right now.
And it happens that my brother, andI have purchased land in Monroe,
(41:22):
Michigan, a farm where I'm thinkingof raising thoroughbred racehorses.
You know, I spent a couple of years inKentucky and purchased a lot of horses
for remounts for the military, butI also came to a great on racehorses
and had a horse named Frogtownthat I ran pretty, pretty good.
(41:43):
The horse I'm currently using nowon campaign is a horse named Vic.
Who was the son of Glencoe , that hasbeen a a triple crown winner a number of
times, a racehorse in the South, and I'm,I've got a great deal of knowledge where
I think that it's possible that I couldRaised thoroughbred horses in Michigan
(42:07):
at a stud farm and could be a financialWindfall for my brother Nevin and I
yeah, when you were dealing with horseswhen you were a kid I mean that's between
the cavalry and and what you're talkingabout here It's just something that it's
going to be part of your life permanently.
I can see myself doing that soonerthan sitting behind a desk in an
(42:30):
oval office And being frustratedbecause one man can't control the
country as much as everyone thinksthat a president can make decisions.
It takes Congress and the Senate to, towork with them, to, to get things done.
You'd probably be punching someguys in their face for that.
You might run out of patience.
(42:51):
I caned Rice A. C. Rice a few weeks ago.
I thought I was going to spend sometime in jail, but he had it coming.
He deserved it.
Well, General Custard, it hasbeen wonderful speaking with you.
I mean, I really did not understandwhat kind of person you were, and I'm
glad that you what , your feelingsabout Because there are people
(43:11):
that say you're an Indian hater.
I don't think that's the case at all.
I think, it sounds to me like you'rejust a guy that was just doing his job.
And, you know, we allhave responsibilities.
And unfortunately, sometimesunpleasant things need to be done.
And I just, I appreciate , yourcontribution and what you've done
to make our country what it is.
I, I guess I'd just ask youone last question before we go.
And maybe, maybe two.
(43:31):
And that would be, number one Iguess, well, maybe this is it.
What, what, do you have any big regrets?
Is there, are there any things that youwish you would have done differently?
No, I can't really say that I, I have.
I, I've tried to treat people with respectand as well as my adversaries in battle.
(43:52):
And I think I've never had to back upto take a paycheck because most of the
things that I've done, I've given my best.
So I, I really don'thave any real regrets.
I've done everything to the best of myability and, and tried to do it with
as pure a heart and a God fearing way.
(44:13):
Well,
I am so thankful for your time.
Is there anything else you'dlike to add then before you
go back to Mr. Bell's show?
Well, I, I just, I wonder about thisdevice, if it's going to catch on.
I mean, I've heard you very clearly, but Idon't know if you're in the next room and
you're just pulling my leg the whole time.
(44:35):
That and this thing about the future,I, I, I can't wrap my head around
it, but I, I have enjoyed this.
and I, I could see the saving a lotof paper instead of writing those
30 page letters to my wife at night.
I could probably get to bed muchsooner if I was able to talk to
(44:55):
her a few minutes on the telephone.
I
think the telephone, it's liketelegraph but it's telephone.
Yeah, I think you're exactly right too.
I think you'd save a whole bunch of paper.
That would be capital.
Yes.
Well, sir, thank you again for everything.
I wish you the absolute best.
I hope you have a long,long life after this.
(45:16):
Thank you.
God bless you.
So what do you think?
Was Custer an Indian hater?
Riding across the plains to pushthe Native Americans off their
ancestral lands and onto reservations?
Or was he just a man doing his job?
A dirty job, by the way, thatfew others were willing to do.
There's no question that what happenedto the Native Americans was wrong.
We stole their lands.
(45:36):
But the life you're probablyenjoying today is probably Partly
because men like George Custer werewilling to take on that dirty work.
What about the Civil War?
When most of the best officers left WestPoint to go fight for the South, can
you imagine what the world would looklike now if Grant and Custer had not
been there to hold the Union together?
(45:57):
And speaking of Custer'sluck, it's incredible that he
ended up leading men at all.
At West Point, he racked uphundreds of demerits and was
on the verge of being expelled.
outbreak of the Civil War, theyprobably would have sent him packing.
But the timing was perfect.
The war gave him a second chance.
And somehow, against all odds,the Union got the leader it
(46:20):
needed at just the right moment.
Custer may have done as muchharm as he did good, but he
saw it as his job and his duty.
And when duty called, he never cowered.
Thanks for listening, and don't forgetthat when you tell a friend about the
Calling History podcast, a mime getscaught in an actual invisible box.
I'm Tony Dean, and untilnext time, I'm History.
Welcome back to part two of George Custer.
In the last episode, we talked aboutCuster graduating last in his class
at West Point and being promoted togeneral at a very young age of 23.
On a side note, I was curious ifhe was the youngest general ever.
ever in the U. S., and I wassurprised that this is not the case.
The youngest general was aman named Galusha Pennypacker.
(00:52):
When I looked that up, I feltlike I was being punked, but
it does appear to be a fact.
In the next episode, he's going to tryto explain why he was not kicked out of
West Point even after receiving eighttimes the amount of demerits that would
normally cause a person to be dismissed.
He's going to talk about the Battle ofWashita or the massacre at Washita,
depending on which side you're on.
And he's going to answer the questionabout why he had a big, fancy red
(01:18):
scarf tied around his neck insteadof the standard military outfit.
Well, then it became more accurate andeach wound inflicted by the rifled 58
caliber Springfield devastated the enemy.
The person that got hit because chancesare it shattered the bone and they'd
have to lose a limb in the process.
(01:40):
If they weren't killed outright,then it would take two men that would
have to remove them from the field.
So you could effectively removethree people from a line a skirmish
line and that person probablywouldn't return to the front because
of the wounds that they suffered.
If they didn't die outright during theprocedure to remove their arm or leg, they
(02:03):
would probably just return to civilianlife and try to make do as best they can.
Gosh, that sounds awful.
Do you think that you and Grant, as faras leaders of men during the time of
the Civil War, if you and Grant had beenin the South, would the South have won?
(02:26):
Well, I don't put that much on myself.
I think that Grant was a great general,and he's my commander in chief, so I'm
not going to say anything negative, butI will tell you that he had a different
way of fighting that most people hadn'tverged on when he came into the forefront.
(02:47):
He was a no nonsense commander.
And we needed somebody likehim at that time in the war.
But isn't, isn't thathow you fought as well?
Maybe I'm drawing similarities thatdon't exist, but it seems to me that
Grant was not lacking in courageand would run right to the front if
(03:07):
necessary, , until he , eventually tookcomplete control of the whole army.
But it seemed like you were doingthe same thing, maybe even more so.
Am I wrong on that?
Well, I'd like to think so, but Iwould have to tell you that even
as my capacity as a brigadiergeneral, I still had to take orders.
So I couldn't make a decision on my own.
(03:29):
I had to go through chain ofcommand and I was a junior.
at the time.
I wasn't one of the high rankingofficers, so what was to my advantage,
to a large degree, is the men who werea command above me, who would place
me in the proper place at the righttime, and that's how I was successful.
(03:52):
As far as taking orders go, and I'mgoing to push back at this a little
bit with respect, but we go back toyou being young and you're at West
Point and you end up with these sevenor 800 demerits, which seems like
it's probably a record to this day.
And so it looks like, , at a very youngage, there were times where a lot of
(04:13):
times where you kind of did what youwanted to and push back against authority.
But even when you get into theposition of leading in these battles.
Aren't you also pushing back at authority?
Weren't you not courtmartialed a couple times?
Wasn't there one time where you were AWOLand you went to spend time with your wife?
So, do you take, you take orders,but it all, you kinda do what you
(04:35):
wanna do if you think it's rightsometimes too, is that not correct?
Well, I, you know, I, I can't reallyaddress the court martial thing of the
Civil War because it was prior to theCivil War when I was brought up before
court martial at West Point because therewere a couple of plebes, they're the new
(05:01):
entries into the academy that were atBeast Barracks, that's when we put up the
Tents on the parade ground on the plane.
And they were fighting over awater pump and I was officer of
the guard and I happened upon themand instead of separating them, I
told the other plebs to stand back.
(05:23):
Let's have a fair fight.
And lieutenants Hazen andMerrill arrested me and had me
brought before a court marshal.
And if it hadn't been for commandant ofcadets general Reynolds, I would have been
expelled from the academy and probablywould have ended my military career,
but they needed officers to go to thefront for the first stages of the war.
(05:48):
That court marshal was probably exceeding.
My duties as officer of the guard.
And it was just by Custer's luckthat I was able to get off from that.
My second court martial occurred whenI was on the frontier and yes, I did
(06:09):
leave, but I had permission to gosee my wife and there were trumped
up charges because of the failure ofHancock's expedition against the Sioux
in the Southern Cheyenne that I wasmade the scapegoat and I received.
A year suspension of rank and pay, but Ionly had to serve 10 months of it because
(06:30):
of the winter campaign that I was calledback to be a part of by General Sheridan.
So those were the only two times that Iever was brought before a court martial.
And so, you know, as far asother times that I was accused
of not following orders.
uh, technicality was that generalKilpatrick had ordered me to little
(06:54):
round top and devil's den, and I gotstopped midway by a commander who
asked for my cooperation and help, andbecause it didn't go bad, I was able
to help him thwart Stuart's attempt toturn the right flank of the Union Army.
(07:14):
I didn't receive a court martial, but Icould have for not following through on
those orders from General Kilpatrick.
So I guess I would tell you that, In mymind, I always justify what I'm doing like
anybody that I'm doing it for the good andhopefully I'm following through on orders.
I don't necessarily decide thatI'm going to disobey an order.
(07:39):
Generally speaking, you wouldsay that you were a person who
followed orders , unless it was acase where it was absolutely wrong.
Is that, would you agree with that?
I always followed ordersas best I could, yes.
What is his deal about Custer's luck?
Okay, so I've heard about Custer'sluck and you just said it.
Are you just lucky or are yougood or what is Custer's luck?
(08:01):
I don't, I don't know how to describeit other than being at the right place
at the right time and it just seemsas though sometimes I have to nudge
that luck a little bit but most casesthings have kind of fallen my way.
And even falling into bad gracesfor a time, I seem to always rise to
(08:22):
the top, somehow, someway maybe thegods of war are looking out for me.
they knew that I was somebody would becommitted and I would follow through that
(08:44):
if I said I was going to do something,I would kill myself attempting to do it.
. General Sheridan said I'm theonly man who never failed him.
Did you have a relationship with Grant?
Yes.
In fact General Grant and I,with my wife, Elizabeth, rode to
Washington in May of 64 when he tookcommand of the Army of the Potomac.
(09:06):
Actually, overall commandof the Union Army.
And we rode on the same train together.
And I was with him in Appomattox he wasriding with the Army of Potomac after
his promotion to four star general.
you were with Grant at thesurrender at Appomattox Courthouse?
(09:27):
Yes, yes.
And you're saying yourwife was there as well?
No, she was on the train when we wentto Washington in May of 64 when he took
command, when he took overall command.
you were at Appomattox Courthouse.
How many people were therewhen Lee surrendered?
Was it a big group or a small group?
(09:48):
Well, most of the officerson , General Meade and General
Grant's staff were in the room.
I stuck my head into theroom for only a brief moment.
And General Sheridan nodded to me and thenI left, it was in the Wilbur McLean house
where the surrender terms were signed.
I left the house and went out onthe porch and I saw my old cavalry
(10:12):
instructor from West Point whohollered at me from the yard.
That was Fitzhugh Lee, thenephew of Robert E. Lee.
And we began wrestling and ended up onthe ground and then when Robert E. Lee
walked out, he saw us rolling aroundin the yard and he kind of gave a stern
(10:33):
look to his nephew and pulled on hisgauntlets and instructed Sergeant Tucker
to bring Traveler, his gray horse, over.
And then he climbed on thehorse and nodded to me.
And I nodded to my nephew.
bandmaster, Major Axel, Charles Axel.
And he began playing Dixie as hewrote out of Appomattox courthouse.
(10:57):
And the rest of the unionofficers came out on the porch
and tip their hats to him.
uh,
involvement was that I was about to makethe last charge of the war when I was
halted by An orderly, bugler orderly fromGeneral Sheridan's staff told me to meet
up with him at the Wilbur McLean house.
(11:20):
So, I just received the flag of trucefrom a Major Sims Confederate officer.
Brought it across the lines.
He had it on a sword.
It was a crash towel that he had purchaseda week or two before in Richmond.
And it was white, so he had broughtthat across and said that Robert
(11:43):
E. Lee was meeting with GeneralGrant at the Wolverine Clean House.
So, we wrote off to join up with him.
And the table that GeneralGrant wrote out the terms of the
surrender was an oval pine table.
Stain pine table that General Sheridanpurchased from Wilbur McLean for 25.
(12:05):
It was a gold piece he'd kept in hisboot in case he had gotten captured.
He could buy his way out or, youknow, whatever contraband he needed.
He bought the table and presented itto my wife, who he had only, she was
the only woman that he allowed to ridewith the army of the Potomac towards
the end of the war and said, permitme to say, madam, there's scarcely
(12:29):
an individual who has contributedmore than your gallant husband.
And so I took that back homewith me when, when the war ended.
, so you.
Do you and your wife havethat surrender table?
You, you own that?
Yes.
Yes.
Wow.
I mean, that's, are there, I mean,that is quite a collectible to have.
(12:49):
Are there other things throughout thesewars that you've collected like this?
Things that are valuable to you?
Numerous, numerous smallitems, but that's probably our
pride is that surrender table.
It's back in Monroe, Michigan,at the home of my wife.
My parents live there now, but it wasthe home that my wife was born in, and
(13:11):
Judge Bacon, who passed away in May of66, ten years ago, he had that table
in the house and would allow peopleto come in and see it on occasion.
It was a showcase item.
You may want to hold on to that forfuture generations, because if you pass
that through generations, that's goingto be worth a lot of money someday.
(13:34):
Maybe you could put every generationthat comes after you through college
. I don't think it's something that we would probably sell.
It's a family heirloom now.
Yeah,
yeah.
No, that makes sense.
So what about this this battle at Wasaw?
There's a lot of good and bad pressabout this battle at Ouachita, where
there's rumors that there were a lotof, , Indians that you slaughtered.
(13:57):
And, what, what canyou tell me about this?
Well,
first of all the Indians that hadleft the reservations in the year
prior to that, most of 68, hadmurdered over 150 some settlers.
24 children and 4 womenwere captured and taken.
(14:18):
The bands had captured numerous livestockand horses , to the point that There was
an outcry that they needed to do somethingabout the raids that were taking place.
Most of these were led by theDog Soldiers, which were a
unit of the Southern Cheyenne.
That , they had captured upto some cases, 53 women and
(14:41):
children, 800 to 1, 100 horses.
And so they were keen onpunishing the Indians.
And as the time went on, Theweather started getting bad, and
it was decided that there wouldbe a winter campaign mounted.
(15:01):
And most of the old scouts andmountain men, men like Kit Carson,
, they discouraged pursuing Indians inthe, in the hostile weather, winter.
And General Sheridan felt like if he couldcall me back from my disciplinary leave,
that I could head up the 7th Cavalry.
(15:24):
And about that time, the 7th Cavalrywas coming into its own as being
an elite unit on the frontier.
And so we mounted the 7th Cavalry andleft out of Fort Supply in Oklahoma
territory around November, the end ofNovember 22nd, and pursued the trail
(15:47):
that led us into the Valley of theOuachita, just below the Canadian River.
And it was the villageof Chief Black Kettle.
The Indians who had been raidinghad taken sanctuary in his village,
and we did a dawn attack, whichresulted in the death of 103 warriors.
(16:08):
We captured 875 ponies thatwe were able to destroy.
the Indian brobes andgunpowder was also destroyed.
We put up the village.
We put two flames captured53 women and children.
(16:29):
And 103 warriors were put to death.
We lost three officers and 19enlisted men, but we were able to
cripple the Southern Cheyenne andsubsequently bring in the rest of
the Southern Cheyenne tribes, theApache, Kiowa, Comanche, and Arapaho.
(16:52):
We were able to return to the reservationand a lot of people who would talk about
this battle as a, a massacre of womenand children, had not ever encountered
that kind of warfare on the SouthernPlains, and it was such that it was easy
to criticize us, but it wasn't for thenumber of Indian lives that were lost,
(17:16):
but those that I was able to spare,that I became known as the foremost
Indian fighter on the frontier, becauseI effectively Brought an end to the
Southern Plains Wars when all the Indiansreturned to their reservations by spring.
Oh, so once that battle was complete, wasthat the end of the fighting for a while?
(17:37):
For the most part, yes.
Mm hmm.
They stayed on the reservations.
We used the 53 women and childrenthat we captured as leverage.
And I Went to some of the village aloneand met with some of the Southern Cheyenne
under the leadership of Stone Foreheadin the Lodge of the Medicine Arrow Keeper
(18:01):
and was able to secure the release ofAnnabelle Morgan and Sarah White who
had been held captive for about sixmonths captured along the Kansas border.
is it your strategy in war to makeit so violent and, and just so
unforgettable to be, , as aggressiveas you can possibly be as a deterrent?
(18:27):
Well, we are the last ofdiplomacy to be used, hopefully.
The diplomats can come to peacefulbefore we're used as a blunt instrument,
but when we do let slip the dogs ofwar we go in, and that's our job.
It's not a likable job, but it'sa job that we're glad to do.
(18:49):
As the military, we're doing what we'vebeen trained to do, and yet, if I can
make diplomatic inroads, I usuallytry to do that prior to a battle.
For Just to spare the lives ofthe men who are serving under me.
It seems like this battle, this,that, this Ouachita battle should be
(19:10):
called the, the Battle of the Ponies.
I, I don't understand whyput down 800 plus horses?
It was too difficult to try to herdthem, and I didn't want the Indians
to, to get access to the horses, sowe used all of the extra horses to
replace those mounts that we lost, andto make sure that the prisoners had.
(19:34):
And then whatever the excesswas, since we couldn't hurt them
effectively, we had to destroy them.
It was not something I lookedforward to, but it was the only
logical decision that we could make.
Makes sense, because if you leave them,you're leaving a problem for yourself,
because they're going to jump right backon them and they'll be right on your tail.
Right.
(19:54):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Something you hate to do, but ifthat's not done, then you and your
people, then the problem doesn't end.
General Sheridan had along with GeneralSherman, decided that we were to make
pulpers of the Cheyenne, and that wasthe only way that we could get them
to come back to the reservations.
(20:14):
And so, without their homes,Without their horses, they were
forced to return the reservation
This is going to be a little touchyquestion here right now and so you
got to forgive me if this is insultingbecause that's not my intention.
Sir, you have shown nothing butcourage and without people like
you, the country that I enjoy, itprobably wouldn't even be here.
(20:37):
So just understand, but itis a tough question to ask.
There are lots of rumors that Youand maybe even the soldiers abused
those women that were captured.
Is there any truth to that?
It
was never my knowledgethat there was any abuse.
Prisoners of wars are treatedaccording to the Geneva Convention
(20:58):
that was in Geneva in 57.
So we have rules of warthat we must follow.
And I never heard of any abuse.
But one of the things that You do findwith prisoners is they're going to
attempt to escape and sometimes strongerdiscipline is used in order to try to.
(21:24):
But once we got back to camp supply,they were turned over and they ended
up in stockade at Fort Hayes until theywere eventually released after the rest
of the tribe came to the reservation.
I'm not sure that there wasany abuse that took place.
Maybe they felt they didn't get enoughfood, but we were pretty much on
(21:48):
third rations by the time we returnto camp supply just because of the
weather conditions and, , whatwe lost, you know, in battle.
They, they captured much ofour haversacks and great coats.
So we were in need of theirbuffalo robes for warmth.
And there was probably some sufferingbecause of the frigid weather, but
(22:11):
I don't know of any abuse that I can
account
for.
Let me ask question about this battle.
, if you look at , the way that theAmericans are treating the Indians.
I mean, we make a treaty with themand then we break it because we, you
know, we want something that they have.
(22:31):
And then the Indians, as yousaid, come back and slaughter
a certain number of our men.
I mean, don't you think you'd dothe exact same thing if somebody
was encroaching on your land?
, wouldn't nearly every Americanreact the same way if somebody was
trying to take what was theirs?
I mean, why are we surprisedthat they would fight back?
(22:52):
Because we would do the same thing.
Well, I, I think the way I, Ilook at it through my prism is the
government met with the tribes whenthe purchase of Louisiana Territory.
It opened the West and to get accessand across that land, treaties
(23:15):
were made to provided annuities anddifferent things to satisfy the tribes.
And they were supposed to havefree passage through , that land.
During the free passage through theland, the Indians, by matter of coming of
(23:35):
age, this was their way, their culture.
They would horses, women,and other things from the
settlers crossing the land.
And then, because of the misunderstandingabout that, there would be reprisals.
And that would escalate until therewould be a conflict between different
(23:58):
tribes and the settlers moving acrossthat land that they were supposed to have
free passage, according to the treaties.
People said that the whiteman broke the treaties.
But probably there was timeswhen situations were taken into
their own hands and white men.
(24:18):
Seek out reprisals againstthe Indians and it escalated.
And new treaties had to be drawn, andso that, that created the problems, but
it was not in all cases that each groupthat crossed the frontier was attacked.
The Indians avoided the whiteman as much as they could, and it
(24:42):
was only small groups that wentinto an area that probably was
held by gangs that would attack.
And then it would be escalated to a forcewhere the military would be called in.
And those misunderstandingswent into a war.
Lieutenant Gratton fired on an Indianencampment over the dispute of a cow that
(25:06):
had been wandering away from a wagon trainand was killed and eaten by the Indians.
And when the owner demanded the returnof the cow, He couldn't be returned
because he was already dead and eaten.
And so, Lieutenant Grattan, ina high strung way, most of the
(25:27):
problems with the Lakota peoplewhen he attacked the village.
How many battles start with somethingthat was not initially intended?
I mean, you're talking aboutGettysburg, and you're saying
that started because of shoes.
And now we're talking this nextbattle starts because of a cow.
How many people have to diebecause somebody needs shoesers,
or somebody took a cow?
(25:47):
Misunderstandings, the human nature,and especially if you have two different
cultures, and it sort of escalates.
I often think that if I wereIndian, I would greatly prefer
to cast my lot amongst my people.
Those who would adhere to the freeopen plains rather than submit
to the confines of a reservation.
(26:07):
There to be the recipient ofthose blessed benefits thrown
in without stint or measure.
Hmm.
Yeah.
So, tell me about thisred scarf that you wear.
Why don't you just put a bigred X across your chest when
you're running into the battle?
It just seems like that is drawingfar too much attention to you.
(26:28):
Well, one of the things that I had asa handicap was being such a young age.
When I appeared on the scene, someof my junior officers an adjutant.
And so, in order to be seen or known whereI was at any given time during the battle,
(26:48):
I often designed my own uniforms and worethe red tie so that I would stand out.
And since I was taking a lot ofshots, and I mentioned about losing
11 horses shot from under me the men,In a manner of esprit de corps, tore
up their red underwear and startedwearing red ties to emulate me.
(27:13):
And we became known as the Red TieBoys throughout the rest of the war
and even on to the frontier thereare men showing esprit de corps, wear
the red tie in emulation of myself.
In fact, at one point there was a flood.
At Big Creek, just outside Fort Hayes.
And my wife and our cook, Eliza Brown,had to save some men who had been
(27:38):
washed away when there was a flash floodthat came and they went in the trunk.
My trunk, my wardrobe trunk, andgave away all my sailor shirts
that I'd wore during the war.
And so to replace them, my wife witha sewing machine, made me a, a red
bib front shirt fireman's shirt.
(27:59):
She knew that red was my favorite color.
And once the men started teasingher, especially my brother Tom,
that She was trying to collect onmy New York life insurance policy.
She gave the red shirt tomy striker, John Berkman.
And then we began, Tom and I,picking on her that she was
(28:21):
trying to get Berkman shot.
But the red was always a favorite of mine.
And let alone fact, is after thewar, on May 23rd, 1865, there was
going to be a parade in Washington.
It was called the Grand Review.
Then President Andrew Johnsonwas going to review the troops as
(28:42):
they rode by his reviewing stand.
And because General Sheridan wascalled to Texas, he put me in
charge of the entire Cavalry Corps.
Unbeknownst to me, the night beforethe parade, the men had gone in to
The city of Washington had boughtevery piece of red silk, red wool,
(29:04):
red felt they could get their handson and cut them up into red ties.
And they said there wasn't a fullUnion suit in all of the city of
Washington because all of the men ofthe Cavalry Corps were wearing red ties.
And I was riding a horse.
It was a thoroughbred horse,Bay, by the name of Don Juan.
(29:26):
And my groomsman, Johnny Sisko, had tackedout the horse that morning and brushed
out my uniform that I was going to wear.
And He had used a snaffle bitinstead of a curb bit on the horse.
So when I mounted Don Juan and took myplace at the front of the parade, as
I turned off of Constitutional Avenueonto Pennsylvania Avenue, just before
(29:49):
the revealing stand, about 50 of thesegirls in white dresses came up and
began pelting the troops with flowers.
And one girl had a big wreath that she wasgoing to throw about the neck of Don Juan.
I knew it was going to fallshort so I drew my saber to
catch it on the end of my saber.
And when I did, I slackenedthe reins for a moment.
(30:12):
And Don Juan took the cursnaffle bit and bolted.
And as the girls chanted, Custer!
Custer!
Custer!
I flew with my hat blowingoff my head past the reviewing
stand and everybody talked aboutthere's Custer stealing the show.
Of all the troops that weremarching in the parade that day
(30:35):
and all the dignitaries that werethere I got the headlines in the
paper that I'd with the parade.
I was able to get the horse undercontrol and return, and then I rendered
honors to the President and GeneralGrant and the rest of the staff, all
of the, Secretary of War and all of thedignitaries that were in the stands.
(30:59):
Not that I am questioning thatnone of this was intentional.
But , you are pretty good at gettingthe media to pay attention to you.
Is that not true?
Well, if that was my goal, you'vegot to understand that I, I spent
a year in Texas as a result of it.
That's not a jab on Texas, but rememberthat General Sheridan said, , if the
(31:22):
devil had Texas and hell, he would rentout hell and keep the fires in Texas.
So, what do you think , that thepublic misunderstands about you?
, if they were to buy my book, whichis, by the way, a best seller this
year my life on the planes, they'dget a little bit of an insight into my
(31:45):
character and into my thoughts of thecountry as well as the American Indian.
And realize that those who wouldbesmirch me that want me to be known as
an Indian hater is quite the contrary.
I have a great admiration forthe American Indian, and I have
a great love of our country.
(32:05):
If people were to read the book,
I hope they take that away from it, yes.
That's, okay.
I mean I put my, I put my heartout there, my soul in my writings.
Do you enjoy writing?
Yeah, you know, I, I didn't know thatI had that kind of a talent for writing
when I was traveling through the, thewar, and especially in the early years.
(32:28):
It was not unusual for me to stayup late at night, write 30 page
letters to my wife, but I found thatI had a fancy for the skills and was
asked to write for Galaxy Magazine.
And I also wrote for Turf Fieldand Farm Hunting Magazine that
(32:48):
I wrote some of my adventures.
And I found that I had somewhatof a flair for it and I enjoy it.
So often during the winter months whenI'm absconded in my room at Fort Lincoln,
I'm sitting there writing articlesto send back east for publication.
(33:09):
And so I began my memoirs of theCivil War, and I hope in the next
year or two to finish them up.
In fact It's just been suggested in thelast month when I was here testifying
I met with Red Path Lyceum Society andthey want to contract me to go around
(33:30):
to do Chautauqua give talks of mytime during the Civil War and some of
the early campaigns on the frontier.
And it would kind of supplementmy current salary that I'm
receiving as a Lieutenant Colonel.
? Why do you think that if youare so good with the media, and
because you are, you're so goodwith the media, they love you.
(33:52):
In fact, there are so manypictures of you in our time.
You are probably one of the mostphotographed people of your time.
. And the news when they're lookingfor news to report, it seems like if
they have choices to go through, andthere's somebody even maybe at a higher
rank, that maybe come your direction.
So, you're aggressive, you getthings done, like your work ethic is
(34:15):
excellent, you can be disciplined, youcan promote discipline with people,
but it doesn't seem like when you wereoutside of the military and you went
into business, that for some reason allthat didn't translate into business.
Were you not very good at business?
Well, the military hasbeen a good home for me.
Right after the war, I consideredgoing into civilian life.
(34:37):
I didn't really know what I wasgoing to do, but it was suggested
that I become a congressman for thestate of Michigan, my adopted home.
And after joining AndrewJohnson on his swing around the
circle, I saw how politics were.
And decided to, to stay away fromthat, that I didn't have the skills
(34:58):
appropriate to be a good politician.
And so I remained a soldierand my protecting of the
railroads has offered me.
Complimentary ticketsto travel by rail line.
So my wife and I, often in the wintermonths, when it's nothing on the
prairie to do, we come back east.
(35:19):
Attend plays and operas in New York.
, she likes to come back east.
My good friend, LawrenceBarrett, The Shakespearean actor
partners with Edwin Booth.
He comps me tickets to the theater.
I've, I've watched JuliusCaesar more than 30 times.
(35:41):
He's currently participating in Macbeth.
Tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in thispity pace from day to day until the
last syllables of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays havelighted fools to dusty death.
Out, out, brief candle, lifeis but a walking shadow.
A poor player who struts andfrits his hour upon the stage.
(36:04):
It is a tale told by anidiot, full of sound and fury.
You have seen that a few times.
Have you been an actor?
Well, I would have liked to.
I have to be an actor when I'm infront of my men because there are
times when I have to inspire them.
And I certainly can't tell themthat we are outnumbered by the
(36:26):
command that we're going to attack.
We have to inspire the men to say,you know, we're, we're going to, we're
going to whip these boys, you know,we're, we're going to take care of them,
otherwise they're not going to follow me.
I'm going to be the only horsegoing down the hill to attack.
Yeah.
If you're outnumbered and you tell theguys, whew, man, this doesn't look good.
I don't know if we're goingto be able to do this.
That's not going to turn out very well.
(36:48):
What can you tell me about thethe, there was an incident with
where you found gold somewhere.
And I, I don't know all thedetails of this, but you found
gold somewhere, and it was That was
two years ago in the Black Hills.
That was the Black Hills, okay.
Yes, what happened was, the yearbefore, I was helping the Northern
(37:08):
Pacific Railroad survey from Puget fromMinnesota to Phuget Sound, and we were
looking for a northern range to bringcommerce into the northern plains.
And because of that weran into some Indians.
And it caused a stir that created apanic, and the railroad was brought
(37:30):
to a halt, which subsequently causeda depression that the country is
still suffering from to this day.
And it happened that There was somespeculation that there might be some
gold deposits in the Black Hills,but that was treaty lands to the
Sioux, and the only reason for us togo into that land, sacred land, is
(37:54):
if we were to establish a stockade.
And so I was ordered to go into the BlackHills, but I also was keen enough to bring
along some prospectors and mineralistswho discovered gold in the grassroots,
enough gold that possibly could pay downthe debt that the country's in right now.
(38:20):
So an offer was made to me.
The tribes to purchase the black Hills for6 million and they refuse, they wanted
600 million and the government's not inthat kind of condition to pay that amount.
So that's a little bit of a sticky wicketright now, because with that discovery
(38:44):
of gold, the press got hold of it andthere's been an influx of prospectors
into the black Hills that they'reillegally crossing into the black Hills.
And all of last year, General Crook spent.
Removing those prospectors from the BlackHills in order to thwart an impending war.
(39:06):
Now, I was meeting in Washington withsome of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
in order to discuss the possibilityof upcoming campaign this summer.
To round up some of those recalterantSioux and return them to the reservations.
They have caused some mischief anda number of settlers have had their
(39:31):
livestock run off and a certainamount of deprivations that have been
taken in retaliation has escalated.
The tension so that it's a tinderboxup in that part of the Northern Plains.
So a suggestion that we mount amilitary expedition and return
(39:52):
the Indians to the reservations.
gold makes people crazy.
The Americans are just not goingto walk away from that and not
find a way to get that gold.
Well, it'll be partly up to the militaryto keep the people out of the Black
Hills until we can come to some sortof agreement with the Indian tribes.
That is our goal.
(40:13):
Is that not sacred land though?
Yes, but until we get them back tothe reservations in order to be able
to talk and use diplomatic meansnothing's going to be resolved.
It's hard to imagine thathaving a good outcome.
So what what's next for you?
Are you gonna run for president?
I mean, what do you, whatdo you see happening next?
(40:35):
I, I told you I have no politicalaspirations, but You know,
everybody says that rightbefore they run for president.
Well, I don't know that that's,that's in my near future.
I did have.
An idea that I'd like to be headof the Bureau of Indian Affairs
because I have a knowledge of theAmerican Indian and do well with them.
(40:58):
But Could that lead to apresidential in the future?
Possibly, but right now that'snot what I'm thinking of.
My hopes are, my wifewould like me to retire.
She feels I'm getting long in thetooth in the military right now.
And it happens that my brother, andI have purchased land in Monroe,
(41:22):
Michigan, a farm where I'm thinkingof raising thoroughbred racehorses.
You know, I spent a couple of years inKentucky and purchased a lot of horses
for remounts for the military, butI also came to a great on racehorses
and had a horse named Frogtownthat I ran pretty, pretty good.
(41:43):
The horse I'm currently using nowon campaign is a horse named Vic.
Who was the son of Glencoe , that hasbeen a a triple crown winner a number of
times, a racehorse in the South, and I'm,I've got a great deal of knowledge where
I think that it's possible that I couldRaised thoroughbred horses in Michigan
(42:07):
at a stud farm and could be a financialWindfall for my brother Nevin and I
yeah, when you were dealing with horseswhen you were a kid I mean that's between
the cavalry and and what you're talkingabout here It's just something that it's
going to be part of your life permanently.
I can see myself doing that soonerthan sitting behind a desk in an
(42:30):
oval office And being frustratedbecause one man can't control the
country as much as everyone thinksthat a president can make decisions.
It takes Congress and the Senate to, towork with them, to, to get things done.
You'd probably be punching someguys in their face for that.
You might run out of patience.
(42:51):
I caned Rice A. C. Rice a few weeks ago.
I thought I was going to spend sometime in jail, but he had it coming.
He deserved it.
Well, General Custard, it hasbeen wonderful speaking with you.
I mean, I really did not understandwhat kind of person you were, and I'm
glad that you what , your feelingsabout Because there are people
(43:11):
that say you're an Indian hater.
I don't think that's the case at all.
I think, it sounds to me like you'rejust a guy that was just doing his job.
And, you know, we allhave responsibilities.
And unfortunately, sometimesunpleasant things need to be done.
And I just, I appreciate , yourcontribution and what you've done
to make our country what it is.
I, I guess I'd just ask youone last question before we go.
And maybe, maybe two.
(43:31):
And that would be, number one Iguess, well, maybe this is it.
What, what, do you have any big regrets?
Is there, are there any things that youwish you would have done differently?
No, I can't really say that I, I have.
I, I've tried to treat people with respectand as well as my adversaries in battle.
(43:52):
And I think I've never had to back upto take a paycheck because most of the
things that I've done, I've given my best.
So I, I really don'thave any real regrets.
I've done everything to the best of myability and, and tried to do it with
as pure a heart and a God fearing way.
(44:13):
Well,
I am so thankful for your time.
Is there anything else you'dlike to add then before you
go back to Mr. Bell's show?
Well, I, I just, I wonder about thisdevice, if it's going to catch on.
I mean, I've heard you very clearly, but Idon't know if you're in the next room and
you're just pulling my leg the whole time.
(44:35):
That and this thing about the future,I, I, I can't wrap my head around
it, but I, I have enjoyed this.
and I, I could see the saving a lotof paper instead of writing those
30 page letters to my wife at night.
I could probably get to bed muchsooner if I was able to talk to
(44:55):
her a few minutes on the telephone.
I
think the telephone, it's liketelegraph but it's telephone.
Yeah, I think you're exactly right too.
I think you'd save a whole bunch of paper.
That would be capital.
Yes.
Well, sir, thank you again for everything.
I wish you the absolute best.
I hope you have a long,long life after this.
(45:16):
Thank you.
God bless you.
So what do you think?
Was Custer an Indian hater?
Riding across the plains to pushthe Native Americans off their
ancestral lands and onto reservations?
Or was he just a man doing his job?
A dirty job, by the way, thatfew others were willing to do.
There's no question that what happenedto the Native Americans was wrong.
We stole their lands.
(45:36):
But the life you're probablyenjoying today is probably Partly
because men like George Custer werewilling to take on that dirty work.
What about the Civil War?
When most of the best officers left WestPoint to go fight for the South, can
you imagine what the world would looklike now if Grant and Custer had not
been there to hold the Union together?
(45:57):
And speaking of Custer'sluck, it's incredible that he
ended up leading men at all.
At West Point, he racked uphundreds of demerits and was
on the verge of being expelled.
outbreak of the Civil War, theyprobably would have sent him packing.
But the timing was perfect.
The war gave him a second chance.
And somehow, against all odds,the Union got the leader it
(46:20):
needed at just the right moment.
Custer may have done as muchharm as he did good, but he
saw it as his job and his duty.
And when duty called, he never cowered.
Thanks for listening, and don't forgetthat when you tell a friend about the
Calling History podcast, a mime getscaught in an actual invisible box.
I'm Tony Dean, and untilnext time, I'm History.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.