May 22, 2024 • 45 mins
On March 5, 1836, James Bowie was sick and lying on a cot in the Alamo when he received a call from the future…
In this episode, Bowie will go in detail about the Sandbar Duel that cemented his legacy in the history books. He’ll dispel some of the myths of his life including the fact that he is not a knife fighter. And he’ll tell the story of his search for a lost silver mine that probably never existed.
Listen to the Calling History Podcast on Spotify, Google, Apple, or your favorite provider.
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Jack Edmondson’s interpretation of James Bowie is exceptional. His deep knowledge and engaging storytelling bring this complex character to life. Somehow Jack highlights his bravery and historical significance without romanticizing too much where we’d forget that Bowie did some shady stuff. Thank you, Jack, for giving us this vivid glimpse into early American history.
facebook.com/jack.edmondson.98
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
I'm Tony Dean.
And today we'll be callinghistory to speak with James buoy.
He'll be answering ourcall on March 5th, 1836.
The day before the Alamo was attacked,where buoy will die in his cot.
This was not how one would expect buoyslife to end this man fearlessly ran to the
front of every battle, overcoming 10 toone odds more times than he could count.
(00:50):
When the powerful leaders of this time,like Sam Houston needed something done.
James Bowie was the man they called.
And yet at this time when the oddsare heavily against him, he's so sick.
He can't get out of bed.
Inside the Elmo with him asColonel William, Travis, who
is in charge of the defense.
Also the incredibly interestingDavid Crockett, who we recorded
(01:11):
several episodes ago and outsidethe Fort is the unrelenting Santa
Ana, who you can also listen to.
In a previous episode, it isfascinating to get this story from
several different perspectives.
So I encourage you tolisten to them as well.
James buoys life was not about this onebattle though, or the knife that was
named after him buoy and his brotherswere about adventure and exploration.
(01:34):
Occasionally find himself caught in themiddle of a situation like the legendary
sandbar duel, where you stabbed in thelong and shot multiple times yet after
the newspaper reported that he was notgoing to make it, he beat the odds.
Again, you'll hear aboutthat fight in this episode.
In the next episode, he'll talkabout his questionable slave
smuggling with pirate, John Laffite
(01:56):
and his hundreds of fraudulent landdeals that left authorities trying to
unravel his mess long after his death.
Many of the laws that we follow nowexist because Bowie broke them first.
In his prime, you couldn't outfight him.
You couldn't outsmart him andyou definitely couldn't kill him.
Well, at least until tomorrow.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellowhistory, lovers, and wielders
(02:17):
of butcher knives everywhere.
I give you James buoy.
Hello.
Is that you, Mr.
Bowie?
With whom am I conversing?
my name is Tony Dean, and I'm talking toyou from the future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding inyour hand is called a smartphone, and
it allows us to speak as if we werestanding five feet from one another.
(02:39):
It also allows me to share a recordof our conversation with people around
the world in my time, which is why I'mcontacting you, because in my time,
sir, you are seen as a hero, and yetit is hard to decipher some of the
facts from the fiction of your life.
So I was hoping that I could askyou some questions today, but
before I do, I understand thisis a very strange introduction.
(03:02):
Are there any questions thatI could answer for you first?
I am overwhelmed, sir.
It would take me time to eventhink of all the questions I
might ask you, but let us proceed.
If I was you, I wouldprobably feel the same way.
The technology of our time is quite abit different than it is in your time.
But, speaking of, , where you are inyour time right now, I understand the
(03:23):
situation you're in right now is dire.
Aren't you in the Alamo right now?
Yes, sir.
Lying in my cot in my room but my roomis in the south wall near the gate.
But please understand I am not sleeping.
I am not well.
Indeed, I have been very illsince the second day of the siege.
(03:46):
That was February 24th.
And today, I believe, Is March 5th.
We have been holding out againstSantana's army for 12 days, I believe.
But what disconcerts meat the moment, sir, is.
It's the quiet theprevious days of the siege.
(04:08):
Santana's guns have been blazing day andif, if his guns were silent, his bands
were playing, he was most determined tokeep us awake throughout this entire time.
But at this moment, there is no sound.
No.
No Mexican artillery.
No, no bands playing.
(04:29):
It's just very quiet.
And I am somewhat unnerved.
I'm not sure why.
But anyway it's probably a very goodtime for you to be talking to me.
It would be most difficult forus to be sharing our thoughts if
those guns were blazing constantly.
, I think in wartime, this is, at leastin our time, this is a common strategy
(04:51):
for people to try to keep the the peopleinside of a sieged area, , awake and to
put them under some amount of stress.
And if it's been 12 days of younot sleeping, , could that possibly
have something to do with the reasonthat you're sick and cot right now?
No, sir.
I fell ill.
Like I said, the second day Ihad been ill before this, it
(05:13):
was getting worse and worse.
And then on that morning of that secondday, I awakened and I knew that I would
not be able to get out of bed by myself.
At the time I had my quarters on the Westwall, , in a The house there, and was
(05:34):
most concerned that I might be contagious.
That was a frightful thoughtbecause I could defeat our army
without Santana even attacking.
So I asked to be relocated to this room,where I was away from the garrison.
And, I have laid here throughoutthe rest of the siege.
(05:55):
Yeah.
Well, you definitely don'tsound well, that's for sure.
think that even at this time whereyou're not feeling well to make that
decision , to pull yourself away fromthe men . is very forward thinking and
very much the way that I think thatyou have led throughout your life, , I
guess what I'm wondering is, thishas to be driving you crazy that you
have to be separated from the men.
(06:17):
It seems like you would wantto be on the front lines here.
Yes, sir.
And I fear.
Your analysis earlierwas probably correct.
am most fearful that this silence wasintended to lure my army into a deep
slumber, a well deserved sleep, butthis is not the time to be asleep.
(06:42):
I fear, , that Santana is preparinghis assault most imminently,
and I just hope our garrison isawake enough to But we know.
I know.
. Colonel Travis.
knows I passed commandto him when I became ill.
We
have no chance, sir.
(07:02):
We are doomed.
You already know the answer to this.
I can only speculate, but I am mostcertain this battle will not end well.
Do you know that when he arrivedon February 23rd, the first thing
Santana did was raise a blood redflag to the very top of the bell
(07:22):
tower of the San Fernando Church.
That's the highest point in thetown across the river from us.
So we would all be able to see that flag.
And we knew its significance, no quarter,sir, there would be no prisoners taken.
We would all be slain.
So why would you do that?
(07:43):
Why would he raise this red flag inthe hopes that it would create fear
so that you wouldn't fight as wellor that you would give up under the
understanding that anybody fights is100 percent for sure going to die.
Is that it?
Well, I believe those of us who are.
Are familiar with Santana's history.
(08:03):
He is not inclinedtowards taking prisoners.
Anyway, they just get in the way
a year
or so ago.
He attacked the town of Zacatecas in theprovince of the same name, and he killed
most of the men and turned his army looseon the town and the survivors, the women.
(08:27):
We heard that more than1, 500 men were killed.
Now,
, I saw that red flag and I sent my aide Mr.
Jameson, Greenby Jameson, out to meet.
With a courier from Santana'sarmy, they met on a little bridge.
And I wanted to make sure thatbasically what was intended
(08:51):
and was there any alternative?
And the response was that theonly hope we could possibly have
would be to put ourselves at thedisposal of the Mexican army.
And I believe I know whatthat disposal would be.
There would be no hope for us, whether wesurrendered or whether we stood and fight.
(09:13):
Are you saying that they would justexecute you if you were to surrender?
Yes, sir.
I fear that is the case.
Wow.
No it is better that we make thiseffort to fight because, let me
try and explain this situation.
This revolution, our revolution beganback in October and now here it is, March.
(09:40):
And of course you werenot here to see this.
Those of us who were here.
Had only to gaze up into the night sky andsee this bright streak of light up there.
And some of us knew thatit forebode disaster.
Some people would call it a comet.
(10:00):
But it was very bright and my mother,who provided most of my education
when I was a young man, she toldme about such things these comets.
Did, do you know that King Haroldof England saw such a thing?
Prior to his defeat to William ofNormandy at the Battle of Hastings, I
(10:25):
believe that was 1066 and here it hasreturned and it does spell disaster.
I have no doubt of that.
The only question is disaster for whom?
, I fear we are the most eminent ones.
santana
had put down rebellions in northernMexico, rebellions because, sir,
(10:47):
he had overthrown our constitution,our Mexican constitution.
He had declared himself adictator, the Napoleon of the
West, he proclaimed himself.
And the good people of Mexico hadenjoyed their brief period of freedom.
And that's why the rebellionsoccurred on our border.
(11:11):
And.
And when he put those down, he knew that.
We would rebel next.
And of course we would.
The majority of the population ofthis province are Anglos, or colonists
from the United States, from most ofthe states have come here , because
the land was very cheap and we had aconstitution that promised freedom.
(11:34):
And then Santana rose up and hesent troops in ahead of himself.
To disarm the town of Gonzales, which wasonly 80 miles east of San Antonio de Beja.
We typically just call it Beja.
Uh, It's the biggest town in Texas,but almost entirely Hispanic and
(11:57):
most of the Mexican government,such as it is are there, there
are soldiers, they're soldados.
And this company from Behar had ridden toGonzales to claim this cannon, and the men
there had refused to surrender the cannon.
They fired at it, fired at the soldados,and they retreated back to Behar.
(12:20):
It was nothing more than a skirmish,sir, but we were proclaiming it the
Lexington of Texas, and you mustunderstand, we're only a generation or
two removed from the American Revolution.
Our fathers and grandfathersfought for freedom there.
Those of us who came here, I'm notabout to live under a dictator.
(12:43):
No, we would fight just like theHispanics below us had fought.
And so we captured the town ofGoliad from a Mexican garrison.
And then.
With General Austin in command, weadvanced on San Antonio de Behar, and
there were several battles during ouradvance, in which I was the commander,
(13:06):
I'm usually not braggadocious, butwe won, outnumbered, but we won, and
the soldados withdrew within the town.
And we laid siege to it.
Even though we were outnumbered,our army laid siege to the
town of San Antonio de Behar.
And then, at the beginning of December,we launched an attack on that town.
(13:32):
And after four days of brutalfighting, they surrendered.
The Mexican army there surrendered.
And We paroled them below theborder under promise never
again to raise arms against us.
So I suspect that wasn't true atall, because I believe General Coase,
who commanded that force, is withthe army besieging us right now.
(13:54):
Some say he's a brotherin law to Santa Anna.
I don't know.
Well, let me ask you somethingabout Santa Anna specifically.
What is his reputation right now?
Obviously he doesn't takeprisoners because he's put the
red flag up, but is he a villain?
Is he one of the good guys is hefighting for the independence of his
country as you're fighting for theindependence of I how has he seen?
(14:16):
I have no doubt that many of the soldadosin his army believe that they are fighting
to preserve Mexico, because initially Mr.
Alston felt very strongly about this.
We wanted to help the other Mexicanpopulation to overthrow Santa
(14:37):
Ana and restore the constitution.
But more recently, sir, the sentimenthas swung hard towards independence.
We want to make Texasan independent nation.
Let me explain this.
. Are you familiar with General Sam Houston?
I am, yes, most definitely.
(14:59):
The
man was a a Brigadier General of the localmilitia in Tennessee, and governor there.
There was talk he might be president,he, and others, including Young Travis,
who commands our garrison, now he's only26 years old have both been strong, loud
voices, crying out for Texas independence,and even as we are here, there is a
(15:27):
convention occurring at the littletown of Washington on the Brazos River,
150 miles to the northeast of here.
And there they are deciding, arewe an independent nation or not?
And my hope is they have already declaredfor independence because that would give
(15:47):
us the cause for which we are willingto fight and probably destined to die.
But
our hope right now, and I feel wehave somewhat accomplished this.
We have delayed Santa Ana'sinvasion for 12 days, sir.
And that has bought that convention.
(16:07):
to do whatever they are doing.
We just have no way of knowing, but itis our belief that they were going to
declare for independence to create a brandnew nation, sir, the Republic of Texas.
, so you have the United States rightnow, and then you have Mexico.
And at this moment, isTexas part of Mexico?
(16:30):
Yes, sir.
We are not a separate Mexican province.
, we were joined with theprovince of Coahuila.
And so the province is called Coahuila yTejas and that was one of our objections.
We had hoped to get the Mexicangovernment to separate us.
We had been a separate provinceearlier, but for whatever reason.
(16:53):
And maybe it was an apprehensionabout the number of colonists
that flooded into this region.
I believe that there were only like 3000.
Tejanos residing in this greatvast area and the Comanche
Indians were dominating it.
So the Mexican government openedit to immigration and colonization,
(17:15):
hoping that Anglos could come inand resolve the Indian problem
and help settle this province.
And I believe to some extent wehave accomplished that, but Mr.
Alston was largely in charge ofsupervising the immigrations.
And he was so very strict aboutallowing specific people in, people
(17:36):
who would acknowledge and honorthe Mexican constitution, declare
themselves Mexican citizens.
Their constitution waspatterned very much after ours.
One exception, , Mexico is aCatholic nation and everyone had
to become a Catholic citizen,which may have riled a few.
(17:59):
So when you move to Texas,you have to become a Catholic?
Those are the rules?
Yes, sir.
Absolutely.
Did you do that?
To become a Mexican citizen.
Yes, sir, I did.
And are you a Mex I know you wereborn in the United States, but are you
a Mexican citizen right now, or areyou a citizen of the United States?
Yes.
I'm a Mexican citizen, sir.
, I came to Texas, and not long aftermy arrival, I married the daughter of
(18:26):
one of the most prominent gentlemenin Bexar, Don Juan Bermundi.
I married his daughter, Ursula, andwe married there in the San Fernando
church, beneath , where that redflag now waves, but Ursula died.
Only a few years later of that terriblecholera epidemic , that swept through
(18:48):
the southern United States and intoTexas and on down into Mexico, she
died, her whole family perished.
They had gone to Monclova,up in the mountains, they're
thinking they might be safer.
That was not the case.
Did you have any children with Ursula?
There is a possibility, sir.
I believe Ursula was pregnant when sheand her family went down to Monclova.
(19:12):
And I believe she had a son there.
I believe this because the report of thepriest, and understand the priest was
so harried there, so many people die.
All the time and I'm trying to administerlast rights and keep the records.
I believe they said that the reportreported that along those who died
(19:34):
was the infant son of uh, Mindy
and Mr.
Better Mindy probably didnot have a infant son.
Both he and his wifewere well past that time.
I believe that was my son,but he died with his mother.
I never saw my son.
Wow.
You've been married before.
, is that right?
, before Ursula?
(19:55):
No, sir.
Oh you had,
I was engaged to miss Cecilia Wellsback when I was living in Louisiana.
Her family the Wells family lived inAlexandria and we were engaged, but she
died before the wedding ever happened.
. The Wells family were very close friends of mine.
(20:18):
And it was because of them that I wasinvolved in an affair you may have
heard described as the Sandbar fight.
I have heard about the Sandbar fight.
And I was going to ask you aboutthis definitely because , it doesn't
sound like this originally startedas a dispute that you even had.
Is that right?
(20:39):
That is true, sir.
I was living near Alexandria, andthere were two major political factions
fighting for control of the town.
And when I say fighting, there wereduels, and there were altercations
that were not honorable as duels are.
And this one, began as a duelbetween Samuel Wells III and one
(21:05):
of the gentlemen on the Opposingfaction, but they were not hostile.
Personally, it began really as so manyduels do over the honor of a woman.
But all of the other men involved sawthis as an opportunity to promote this
(21:26):
hostility and create another duel.
And so, a duel was established, and Mr.
Wells was one of the principals.
And, since dueling is illegal inalmost every state, it's necessary
to go to an adjoining state tofight your duel and then come back.
(21:47):
And so, in fact, did you knowthe term cross the river was a
euphemism for fighting a duel?
We're going to cross the river.
You're going to go somewherewhere it's legal to fight
duel, is what they're saying.
No, it's
not legal, sir.
It's illegal there.
The citizens of Mississippiwould cross the river and fight
duels in Vidalia, Louisiana.
(22:10):
And we had to cross the river.
No one's going to cross into differentstate lines and come arrest you, so.
, if you go back to yourhome state you're secure.
There's no federal law against it.
It's just state laws.
, it was determined that our dualwould be fought on the first
sandbar on the Mississippiriver above the town of Natchez.
(22:33):
And I went just as a witnesswitnesses were important.
So because a dual was consideredhonorable and could only be
fought between gentlemen.
Why, if someone challenged you to aduel, sir, and you felt they were not
worthy, they were not a gentleman, youwould be within your rights to say no.
(22:55):
But if a gentleman challengedyou, sir, and you are a gentleman,
then you are obligated to accept.
And then you ask your secondto negotiate all the terms.
And when the time comes, you and yoursecond, and each of you will have
a physician, that's in case you're.
(23:15):
Wounded, but not too seriously,not fatally, and that's all
that's allowed on the field.
The witnesses have to stayback and can only watch.
But if someone cheats, thenit's within our rights as
witnesses to take our own action.
But there was no cheatingon this duel, sir.
(23:35):
Twice, the two principalsfaced each other.
And on the command, theyfired shots at each other.
Both times they missed, neitherwere experienced duelists.
And they shook hands and agreed togo to the other camp to have some
libation and celebrate, celebratethat there was no bloodshed.
(23:55):
But there was so much animositybetween we, the witnesses, we were
members of these political factions.
And as we came out on this field,Angry words were exchanged, and
guns appeared, and in that initialvolley, I was hit by a pistol ball.
(24:15):
I was not Incapacitated.
I rose up and began chasing thegentleman who had fired at me.
He threw his pistol, andit hit me in the head.
A big bloody gash appeared,
and I collapsed on the ground.
And then, members of the other sidewere coming out, and There was one
man there with whom a tremendousanimosity existed between us.
(24:39):
His name was Major Norris Wright.
He saw I was down, and he approachedme with his pistol leveled.
And uh, Mr.
McWhorter, he was the second with Mr.
Wells.
He gave me a pistol!
Major Wright and I exchanged shots, andI think we were both hit, but he stayed
on his feet, and I was trying to riseto mine, but I could not get there.
(25:03):
And then, Major Norris Wright pulled asword cane, and he advanced on me, and
so did two of his friends, and I hadnothing at this point to defend myself
with, except This big hunting knifethat I always carry, not much more than
a butcher knife, sir, a large butcherknife, but I used it as best I could.
(25:25):
I was stabbed several times, but whenMajor Wright plunged his sword into my
chest, I drove that knife up into hisand twisted it to cut the heart strings.
He collapsed on top of me.
Our blood mingling in the sand beneath us.
So you have his sword cane goingthrough your body right now.
(25:49):
You're on the ground and then youtake this knife, which I think
this knife has a name in our time.
I think they call it the Bowie knife.
And , you take this knife and youbasically cut his insides out.
And that's how the battle ends,with both of you having your
blades inside of each other?
There were multiple shots from otherpeople, but incredibly, as the fight
(26:12):
wound down, only two men had beenkilled, and a few others wounded,
but I was the most serious casualty.
In fact, the doctors, well, accordingto the Natchez newspaper that covered
it, The Natchez Aerial, it reportedthat, I saw it sir, it said Mr.
(26:33):
Blank Bui is not expectedto recover from his wounds.
Sir, they did not even know my first name.
But let me tell you something,within a short time that story
spread, and I emerged as the hero.
Maybe that's not altogether fair.
Maybe the heroes were the peacemakerstrying to stop the fighting there.
(26:55):
But anyway,
so that, that battle that duel at thesandbar, which wasn't even your duel
was the beginning of your notoriety.
Yes, sir.
It was indeed.
And my knife, as you pointed out,achieved a legendary status of its own.
, and yes, sir.
, even back then they begancalling it a Bowie knife.
(27:18):
Although some of the designs I'veseen that they call Bowie knives
bore no resemblance to that knife.
So your knife looks more like a butcherknife, and the knife that they call
the Bowie knife, or they call itthe Bowie knife or the Bowie knife,
.. I've heard it pronounced Bowie knife and Bowie knife, but our
family name, sir, is Bowie.
Right.
So, but that knife that ended up beingsold all over the world and , you can
(27:42):
still buy it today, is different thanthis knife that you used, which you're
saying looked more like a butcher knife,
. Any.
Large knife could be called a Bowie knife.
It was a Frontier Bragg.
This is a Bowie knife, not unlike,sir, the term Arkansas toothpick.
That was just a Frontier Braggattached to any large knife,
(28:04):
no specific pattern, not then.
Not in my day.
So who was making these knives?
I mean, you were pretty adept in business.
You were involved in allkinds of different businesses.
Did you decide to capitalize onthis and start making Bowie knives?
No, sir.
No, sir, I did not.
My older brother, Reason, becamesomewhat enamored of what had happened.
(28:28):
He had several very nice knivesbuilt that knives that he would
give to people especially those ofinfluence who might later help him.
Like myself, he had grown up in thebackwoods and we had hunted wild cattle
with just our hunting knives and a rope.
(28:48):
We'd rope them and gallopup and slash their throats.
And that was a lot more dangerous,but a lot more exciting than
just hunting them with a rifle.
And we enjoyed the excitement.
But reasons, eyesight began failing and Ifear he is probably very nearly blind now,
(29:09):
but he did
acquire knives by very skilled makers.
Our early knives were just made byblacksmiths that lived on our plantations.
And they were nothing to lookat, but well, they could save
your life in a situation.
Yeah.
They got the job done.
(29:30):
In your lifetime, you were a landspeculator, and I understand that
you were involved in the slave trade,and I think that you were involved
with selling lumber at some point?
Oh, yes, sir.
, it seems that you were veryinvolved in business and made a
lot of money throughout your life.
, why wouldn't you capitalize on thisBowie knife and this legend from
the Sandbar fight that was created?
(29:51):
I was not enamored by that, sir.
This may surprise you, I don'tconsider myself a violent man.
Do you know that Major NorrisWright was the only man I can ever
remember killing with a knife?
In fact, I don't think my brotherreason or I ever fought in a duel.
I don't consider thesandball fight to be a duel.
(30:14):
We weren't part of the duel.
We were the medley thathappened in the aftermath.
I have fought in battles but that'sfighting in a war, and that's different.
never occurred to me to promote my knife.
Reasons eyesight failed him.
several years after that, it was goingbad very fast and I was already in Texas,
(30:37):
but I came back to Louisiana and I pickedhim up and we went by boat around up
to the northeastern United States toseveral of the states, the New York and.
Massachusetts and Pennsylvanialooking for eye doctors that might
be able to help Reason's eyesight.
And I believe we were in Philadelphiawhen we met a man named Shively.
(31:01):
I believe his primarybusiness was , surgical tools.
. But he also made some cutlery onthe side and he had a Bowie knife
or two in his shop and Reasonbecame very attracted to it.
I think he must have ordered one from Mr.
Shively because the knife thatShively made for Reason was very
similar to Reason's hunting knife.
(31:24):
There was no guard, just astraight back to the knife.
But where Reason's knife andmine had simple wood handles Mr.
Shively, Made the blade so perfectlyclean and smooth and mounted it with horn
handles and silver bolsters engraved.
(31:44):
Ah, it was a thing of beauty.
So everybody's making money off this knifetrade in your name other than you and
I'm surprised to hear you say that you'venever killed a man with a knife before
Besides that story that you had justexplained about the sandbar battle But
are you like there are some people thatthink that you're this big knife fighter.
Are you not a knife fighter?
(32:05):
Is that not your expertise?
Even I have read somewhere that thisone knife that's being sold as a
Bowie knife was designed by me toincorporate features that would make
it a more effective killing weapon.
I find that outlandish.
I have never designed such a knife,and if you're in a bad pickle,
(32:28):
whatever you have, sir, will work.
And, indeed, my butcher knifeworked very well on the sandbar.
But, no, I would never labelmyself a knife fighter.
, I fought in a lot of battles.
And, very often, I've been outnumbered.
And, very often, we have triumphed,despite the fact that we were outnumbered.
(32:48):
That's something I wanted to ask youabout, because it appears that of the
different battles that you were in,whether they were wars or skirmishes.
I read one time that there was a timewhere you were searching for some sort
of silver mine and you ended up fighting.
Some native Americans and andyou were severely outnumbered
and lost hardly any men.
(33:09):
Why is it that you end up inthese battles and you win them?
When the odds are so stacked against you.
Oh, the San Shaba Indian fight.
Yes, sir.
That was after I had come to Texasand married Ursula, but we had
heard very enticing stories about.
Los Angeles silver mines being located up.
(33:32):
The Sanbar River and the Spanishhad built a mission up there and
a presidio, a fort to protect it.
But they were separated some distance.
The priests never wanted the presidiostoo close to the missions because
Presidio soldado were very oftenattracted to the Indian ladies, and
(33:55):
that could cause a lot of conflict.
So the priest always insisted thatthe Presidios be some distance away.
On this occasion, it did not workout well for the mission because
Comanche Indians, a great number,attacked And there are only a few
soldados actually stationed there.
And most of the, I think all threepriests and a number of others
(34:17):
were killed, but a few survived.
They managed to survive in ahouse that would burn it down.
And then in the darkness theymanaged to slip out and escape.
Even though the mission wasdestroyed and never restored the
Spanish kept their Presidio therefor another dozen years or so.
strengthening it.
(34:37):
And there was a lot of talk.
Why would they keep that Presidio thereunless they were protecting something?
And many have speculated that they hadbuilt a mine and were hiding silver
ingots there inside the mine, a minerich in silver, or that's the story, sir.
(34:57):
But Mr.
Austin believed it.
He had some maps made up, which wereIncluded the site of the Lost Silver
Mines up on the Sansevier River.
You keep saying Mr.
Austin.
Are you talking about Iforget his first name.
Stephen Fuller Austin, sir.
Okay, you're talking, you aretalking about Stephen Austin.
Okay, got it.
(35:18):
Keep going.
Yeah, Mr.
Austin, he was a man of peace.
He's the one who, as I said before,supervised those who came to Texas,
making sure that they were good qualitypeople, and that they would obey the
Mexican laws and not cause trouble.
But he was also trying toget people to come to Texas.
Is that
(35:39):
why he was making the maps?
Yes.
Yes, sir.
Anything to bring morecolonists into Texas.
So
Stephen Austin's maps propagandato bring people to Texas?
That was certainly oneof their intentions.
Did you ever find the mine?
I left Behar with myself, eightother men, and two servant boys.
(36:04):
And we ran into a small partyof rather friendly Comanches.
Fortunately, one of our number, Mr.
Caiaphas Ham, who was a friend ofmine from Louisiana, he'd come to
Texas with me, but he'd become anagent for the Comanche Indians, and
he had a good relationship with them,and they warned us that there was a
(36:26):
war party of Caddos and Tawakanas.
That were looking for blood.
And they knew that we were out thereand they were determined to find us.
Well, we told these Comanches, weappreciated their warning very much.
They were taking horses backinto Bay hard to trade them.
(36:48):
We continued on.
And after several days, we hadseen no sign of Indians and we were
getting close to the the abandonedPresidio up in the San Seba country.
And we woke up from our Kaplanmorning by a creek there and there the
Indians were, and for other reason.
Attempted to negotiate peacewith them, but they opened fire.
(37:10):
As I said, our total number was11 and two of those were boys.
And there must've been 150 warriorsand they kept coming at us,
but we kept driving them back.
scariest moment was they set fireto the grass that we were behind
trees along the Creek there alongthe Creek bank, but this fire, the
(37:30):
wind was blowing it towards us and.
You must realize our weapons requiredblack powder to be loaded individually,
and then the ball put in, and we carriedflasks or powder horns, and if we're
in a fire, those things could explode.
so, our only problem was, Chanceof survival was to put, those
(37:51):
down and go out and fight downthe flames with our blankets.
And we were not very successful, but thenthe wind turned and the flames receded.
And we went back into the treesand held off numerous more attacks.
They tried to circle behind us andthey did manage to kill one of our
(38:12):
men and wound a few more, but wedrove them off and darkness fell.
We could hear the Indians cryingout, moaning for their dead, and
during the night they removedas many bodies as they could.
But come the next morning,they had pretty much withdrawn.
We ventured out carefully fromour underbrush and we counted
(38:36):
50 blood spots in the grass.
We had lost one dead and three wounded.
It was an incredible victory, butwe stayed there a few more days.
We gave up on our desire tohunt for lost silver mines.
And when we felt it was absolutelysafe, we headed back to Bayhawk.
Now, the thing is, sir, those ComancheIndians had gone into town and told
(39:00):
the citizens there our party ofmen would certainly be massacred
by this large war party of Indians.
And so, even my wife, Ursula,was wearing widow's black.
We rode in at nightfall, andwe were nothing to look at.
We were tired, and our clotheswere We're haggard and dirty and,
(39:23):
but we were celebrated as thoughwe had risen from the dead, sir.
And in some people's mind, I guess we had.
Well, that's quite a story.
Those seem like the kind of odds thatyou're against right now at the Alamo.
Yes, sir.
But the problem is I was at mystrength then and here I am so weak.
(39:44):
I'm not sure I can evenget out of this bed.
Do you think that if you couldget out of that bed, that you may
have some impact on that battle?
And possibly women?
We number, I'm not even sure, 200 menperhaps, give or take, and Santana's
army, this is only the vanguard outthere, and they are 2500 strong.
(40:10):
Now,
we can't do anything now but fightand die, but that we are determined
to do, because we have boughttime, precious time for Texas.
If.
We had determined to leavethis place they call the Alamo
early on.
Maybe then we could have done so, butwe couldn't because we needed time for
(40:33):
Sam Houston to get those jackanapes atWashington to declare for independence.
And you may not know this, but , theAlamo was a Mexican mission, a Spanish
mission originally called the Alamo.
San Antonio de Valero and later it wassecularized and a company of soldados from
(40:55):
below the border from a little town calledAlamo de Paras were stationed there.
And so the old mission took their name.
It became known as the Alamo butit was never built as a fort.
, I told you about the massacreof the San Seban mission.
After that, all of the missions in SanAntonio had walls built to protect them.
(41:20):
They were meant to protect usfrom Indians firing arrows.
stone walls, but the mortar wasnot always the best by any means.
And the heights vary.
But the main problem we have,sir, those walls enclose more
than three acres of land.
This mission turned fortress is huge.
(41:43):
We have 200 men.
The other major reason we neededto defend this place was because
It had the largest collection ofartillery west of the Mississippi.
Which mostly we had captured from GeneralCoast when we had taken San Antonio.
But we couldn't givethis up to the Mexicans.
Now Sam Houston, he is a friend of mine.
(42:06):
We don't agree on everything,but we were both in Goliad.
And Houston decided that he feltwe should abandon the town of San
Antonio and the mission, the Alamo,and pull the cannons back to the east.
, and he sent me to San Antoniode Beja to accomplish this.
(42:28):
But I arrived there and realized we didnot have teams of mules, oxen, enough to
pull these artillery pieces out of there.
And besides that, these people InBexar, they needed our protection too,
but what I would have thought madelittle impression, but Governor Henry
Smith did not agree with Sam Houston.
(42:51):
I remember Houston wrote Smith aletter and said, , if you agree,
sir, I will order Bowie to pull theartillery back and abandon that place.
But instead, Governor Smithsent reinforcements there.
When I arrived, there was hardly morethan 100 men garrisoning that place.
(43:12):
And I arrived with 30 more men.
And then the next reinforcementsarrived sent by Governor Smith.
That was Lieutenant Colonel WilliamBarrett Travis, the young lawyer.
Then another group arrived laterand they included the very famous
David Crockett of Tennessee.
You know, he served inthe Congress for Tennessee.
(43:36):
Yeah.
But he had lost his last electionbecause he had opposed President
Jackson's Indian removal plan, whichled to that horrible trail of tears.
And it wasn't a good ideato oppose president Jackson.
And so Crockett lost his last election andI'll wager even you have heard about his
(43:57):
famous quote when he was leaving Tennesseeand as he was passing through Arkansas.
And as he came to Texas, every townhe stopped, he made a speech declaring
that since his constituents had failedto reelect him, why, they could go
to hell and he was going to Texas.
I don't think very many peopleget stabbed in the lung and live.
(44:17):
And yet somehow throughouthis life, buoy had this way of
beating the odds over and over.
It is so hard to separate the legend fromthe truth, because in reality, both were
larger than life and difficult to believe.
. And that is exactly whatmakes Jim buoys legacy.
So memorable.
In the next episode, Buddha isgoing to talk about his relationship
(44:38):
with John Lafitte, the pirate,his ingenious, and highly illegal
slave smuggling scheme and howhe sold pieces of the Louisiana
purchase that he didn't known.
That would eventuallybe known as buoy grants.
I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast.
If you haven't yet subscribed now,and we'll see you with the next
episode of the calling historypodcast with part two of James buoy.
I'm Tony Dean.
And today we'll be callinghistory to speak with James buoy.
He'll be answering ourcall on March 5th, 1836.
The day before the Alamo was attacked,where buoy will die in his cot.
This was not how one would expect buoyslife to end this man fearlessly ran to the
front of every battle, overcoming 10 toone odds more times than he could count.
(00:50):
When the powerful leaders of this time,like Sam Houston needed something done.
James Bowie was the man they called.
And yet at this time when the oddsare heavily against him, he's so sick.
He can't get out of bed.
Inside the Elmo with him asColonel William, Travis, who
is in charge of the defense.
Also the incredibly interestingDavid Crockett, who we recorded
(01:11):
several episodes ago and outsidethe Fort is the unrelenting Santa
Ana, who you can also listen to.
In a previous episode, it isfascinating to get this story from
several different perspectives.
So I encourage you tolisten to them as well.
James buoys life was not about this onebattle though, or the knife that was
named after him buoy and his brotherswere about adventure and exploration.
(01:34):
Occasionally find himself caught in themiddle of a situation like the legendary
sandbar duel, where you stabbed in thelong and shot multiple times yet after
the newspaper reported that he was notgoing to make it, he beat the odds.
Again, you'll hear aboutthat fight in this episode.
In the next episode, he'll talkabout his questionable slave
smuggling with pirate, John Laffite
(01:56):
and his hundreds of fraudulent landdeals that left authorities trying to
unravel his mess long after his death.
Many of the laws that we follow nowexist because Bowie broke them first.
In his prime, you couldn't outfight him.
You couldn't outsmart him andyou definitely couldn't kill him.
Well, at least until tomorrow.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellowhistory, lovers, and wielders
(02:17):
of butcher knives everywhere.
I give you James buoy.
Hello.
Is that you, Mr.
Bowie?
With whom am I conversing?
my name is Tony Dean, and I'm talking toyou from the future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding inyour hand is called a smartphone, and
it allows us to speak as if we werestanding five feet from one another.
(02:39):
It also allows me to share a recordof our conversation with people around
the world in my time, which is why I'mcontacting you, because in my time,
sir, you are seen as a hero, and yetit is hard to decipher some of the
facts from the fiction of your life.
So I was hoping that I could askyou some questions today, but
before I do, I understand thisis a very strange introduction.
(03:02):
Are there any questions thatI could answer for you first?
I am overwhelmed, sir.
It would take me time to eventhink of all the questions I
might ask you, but let us proceed.
If I was you, I wouldprobably feel the same way.
The technology of our time is quite abit different than it is in your time.
But, speaking of, , where you are inyour time right now, I understand the
(03:23):
situation you're in right now is dire.
Aren't you in the Alamo right now?
Yes, sir.
Lying in my cot in my room but my roomis in the south wall near the gate.
But please understand I am not sleeping.
I am not well.
Indeed, I have been very illsince the second day of the siege.
(03:46):
That was February 24th.
And today, I believe, Is March 5th.
We have been holding out againstSantana's army for 12 days, I believe.
But what disconcerts meat the moment, sir, is.
It's the quiet theprevious days of the siege.
(04:08):
Santana's guns have been blazing day andif, if his guns were silent, his bands
were playing, he was most determined tokeep us awake throughout this entire time.
But at this moment, there is no sound.
No.
No Mexican artillery.
No, no bands playing.
(04:29):
It's just very quiet.
And I am somewhat unnerved.
I'm not sure why.
But anyway it's probably a very goodtime for you to be talking to me.
It would be most difficult forus to be sharing our thoughts if
those guns were blazing constantly.
, I think in wartime, this is, at leastin our time, this is a common strategy
(04:51):
for people to try to keep the the peopleinside of a sieged area, , awake and to
put them under some amount of stress.
And if it's been 12 days of younot sleeping, , could that possibly
have something to do with the reasonthat you're sick and cot right now?
No, sir.
I fell ill.
Like I said, the second day Ihad been ill before this, it
(05:13):
was getting worse and worse.
And then on that morning of that secondday, I awakened and I knew that I would
not be able to get out of bed by myself.
At the time I had my quarters on the Westwall, , in a The house there, and was
(05:34):
most concerned that I might be contagious.
That was a frightful thoughtbecause I could defeat our army
without Santana even attacking.
So I asked to be relocated to this room,where I was away from the garrison.
And, I have laid here throughoutthe rest of the siege.
(05:55):
Yeah.
Well, you definitely don'tsound well, that's for sure.
think that even at this time whereyou're not feeling well to make that
decision , to pull yourself away fromthe men . is very forward thinking and
very much the way that I think thatyou have led throughout your life, , I
guess what I'm wondering is, thishas to be driving you crazy that you
have to be separated from the men.
(06:17):
It seems like you would wantto be on the front lines here.
Yes, sir.
And I fear.
Your analysis earlierwas probably correct.
am most fearful that this silence wasintended to lure my army into a deep
slumber, a well deserved sleep, butthis is not the time to be asleep.
(06:42):
I fear, , that Santana is preparinghis assault most imminently,
and I just hope our garrison isawake enough to But we know.
I know.
. Colonel Travis.
knows I passed commandto him when I became ill.
We
have no chance, sir.
(07:02):
We are doomed.
You already know the answer to this.
I can only speculate, but I am mostcertain this battle will not end well.
Do you know that when he arrivedon February 23rd, the first thing
Santana did was raise a blood redflag to the very top of the bell
(07:22):
tower of the San Fernando Church.
That's the highest point in thetown across the river from us.
So we would all be able to see that flag.
And we knew its significance, no quarter,sir, there would be no prisoners taken.
We would all be slain.
So why would you do that?
(07:43):
Why would he raise this red flag inthe hopes that it would create fear
so that you wouldn't fight as wellor that you would give up under the
understanding that anybody fights is100 percent for sure going to die.
Is that it?
Well, I believe those of us who are.
Are familiar with Santana's history.
(08:03):
He is not inclinedtowards taking prisoners.
Anyway, they just get in the way
a year
or so ago.
He attacked the town of Zacatecas in theprovince of the same name, and he killed
most of the men and turned his army looseon the town and the survivors, the women.
(08:27):
We heard that more than1, 500 men were killed.
Now,
, I saw that red flag and I sent my aide Mr.
Jameson, Greenby Jameson, out to meet.
With a courier from Santana'sarmy, they met on a little bridge.
And I wanted to make sure thatbasically what was intended
(08:51):
and was there any alternative?
And the response was that theonly hope we could possibly have
would be to put ourselves at thedisposal of the Mexican army.
And I believe I know whatthat disposal would be.
There would be no hope for us, whether wesurrendered or whether we stood and fight.
(09:13):
Are you saying that they would justexecute you if you were to surrender?
Yes, sir.
I fear that is the case.
Wow.
No it is better that we make thiseffort to fight because, let me
try and explain this situation.
This revolution, our revolution beganback in October and now here it is, March.
(09:40):
And of course you werenot here to see this.
Those of us who were here.
Had only to gaze up into the night sky andsee this bright streak of light up there.
And some of us knew thatit forebode disaster.
Some people would call it a comet.
(10:00):
But it was very bright and my mother,who provided most of my education
when I was a young man, she toldme about such things these comets.
Did, do you know that King Haroldof England saw such a thing?
Prior to his defeat to William ofNormandy at the Battle of Hastings, I
(10:25):
believe that was 1066 and here it hasreturned and it does spell disaster.
I have no doubt of that.
The only question is disaster for whom?
, I fear we are the most eminent ones.
santana
had put down rebellions in northernMexico, rebellions because, sir,
(10:47):
he had overthrown our constitution,our Mexican constitution.
He had declared himself adictator, the Napoleon of the
West, he proclaimed himself.
And the good people of Mexico hadenjoyed their brief period of freedom.
And that's why the rebellionsoccurred on our border.
(11:11):
And.
And when he put those down, he knew that.
We would rebel next.
And of course we would.
The majority of the population ofthis province are Anglos, or colonists
from the United States, from most ofthe states have come here , because
the land was very cheap and we had aconstitution that promised freedom.
(11:34):
And then Santana rose up and hesent troops in ahead of himself.
To disarm the town of Gonzales, which wasonly 80 miles east of San Antonio de Beja.
We typically just call it Beja.
Uh, It's the biggest town in Texas,but almost entirely Hispanic and
(11:57):
most of the Mexican government,such as it is are there, there
are soldiers, they're soldados.
And this company from Behar had ridden toGonzales to claim this cannon, and the men
there had refused to surrender the cannon.
They fired at it, fired at the soldados,and they retreated back to Behar.
(12:20):
It was nothing more than a skirmish,sir, but we were proclaiming it the
Lexington of Texas, and you mustunderstand, we're only a generation or
two removed from the American Revolution.
Our fathers and grandfathersfought for freedom there.
Those of us who came here, I'm notabout to live under a dictator.
(12:43):
No, we would fight just like theHispanics below us had fought.
And so we captured the town ofGoliad from a Mexican garrison.
And then.
With General Austin in command, weadvanced on San Antonio de Behar, and
there were several battles during ouradvance, in which I was the commander,
(13:06):
I'm usually not braggadocious, butwe won, outnumbered, but we won, and
the soldados withdrew within the town.
And we laid siege to it.
Even though we were outnumbered,our army laid siege to the
town of San Antonio de Behar.
And then, at the beginning of December,we launched an attack on that town.
(13:32):
And after four days of brutalfighting, they surrendered.
The Mexican army there surrendered.
And We paroled them below theborder under promise never
again to raise arms against us.
So I suspect that wasn't true atall, because I believe General Coase,
who commanded that force, is withthe army besieging us right now.
(13:54):
Some say he's a brotherin law to Santa Anna.
I don't know.
Well, let me ask you somethingabout Santa Anna specifically.
What is his reputation right now?
Obviously he doesn't takeprisoners because he's put the
red flag up, but is he a villain?
Is he one of the good guys is hefighting for the independence of his
country as you're fighting for theindependence of I how has he seen?
(14:16):
I have no doubt that many of the soldadosin his army believe that they are fighting
to preserve Mexico, because initially Mr.
Alston felt very strongly about this.
We wanted to help the other Mexicanpopulation to overthrow Santa
(14:37):
Ana and restore the constitution.
But more recently, sir, the sentimenthas swung hard towards independence.
We want to make Texasan independent nation.
Let me explain this.
. Are you familiar with General Sam Houston?
I am, yes, most definitely.
(14:59):
The
man was a a Brigadier General of the localmilitia in Tennessee, and governor there.
There was talk he might be president,he, and others, including Young Travis,
who commands our garrison, now he's only26 years old have both been strong, loud
voices, crying out for Texas independence,and even as we are here, there is a
(15:27):
convention occurring at the littletown of Washington on the Brazos River,
150 miles to the northeast of here.
And there they are deciding, arewe an independent nation or not?
And my hope is they have already declaredfor independence because that would give
(15:47):
us the cause for which we are willingto fight and probably destined to die.
But
our hope right now, and I feel wehave somewhat accomplished this.
We have delayed Santa Ana'sinvasion for 12 days, sir.
And that has bought that convention.
(16:07):
to do whatever they are doing.
We just have no way of knowing, but itis our belief that they were going to
declare for independence to create a brandnew nation, sir, the Republic of Texas.
, so you have the United States rightnow, and then you have Mexico.
And at this moment, isTexas part of Mexico?
(16:30):
Yes, sir.
We are not a separate Mexican province.
, we were joined with theprovince of Coahuila.
And so the province is called Coahuila yTejas and that was one of our objections.
We had hoped to get the Mexicangovernment to separate us.
We had been a separate provinceearlier, but for whatever reason.
(16:53):
And maybe it was an apprehensionabout the number of colonists
that flooded into this region.
I believe that there were only like 3000.
Tejanos residing in this greatvast area and the Comanche
Indians were dominating it.
So the Mexican government openedit to immigration and colonization,
(17:15):
hoping that Anglos could come inand resolve the Indian problem
and help settle this province.
And I believe to some extent wehave accomplished that, but Mr.
Alston was largely in charge ofsupervising the immigrations.
And he was so very strict aboutallowing specific people in, people
(17:36):
who would acknowledge and honorthe Mexican constitution, declare
themselves Mexican citizens.
Their constitution waspatterned very much after ours.
One exception, , Mexico is aCatholic nation and everyone had
to become a Catholic citizen,which may have riled a few.
(17:59):
So when you move to Texas,you have to become a Catholic?
Those are the rules?
Yes, sir.
Absolutely.
Did you do that?
To become a Mexican citizen.
Yes, sir, I did.
And are you a Mex I know you wereborn in the United States, but are you
a Mexican citizen right now, or areyou a citizen of the United States?
Yes.
I'm a Mexican citizen, sir.
, I came to Texas, and not long aftermy arrival, I married the daughter of
(18:26):
one of the most prominent gentlemenin Bexar, Don Juan Bermundi.
I married his daughter, Ursula, andwe married there in the San Fernando
church, beneath , where that redflag now waves, but Ursula died.
Only a few years later of that terriblecholera epidemic , that swept through
(18:48):
the southern United States and intoTexas and on down into Mexico, she
died, her whole family perished.
They had gone to Monclova,up in the mountains, they're
thinking they might be safer.
That was not the case.
Did you have any children with Ursula?
There is a possibility, sir.
I believe Ursula was pregnant when sheand her family went down to Monclova.
(19:12):
And I believe she had a son there.
I believe this because the report of thepriest, and understand the priest was
so harried there, so many people die.
All the time and I'm trying to administerlast rights and keep the records.
I believe they said that the reportreported that along those who died
(19:34):
was the infant son of uh, Mindy
and Mr.
Better Mindy probably didnot have a infant son.
Both he and his wifewere well past that time.
I believe that was my son,but he died with his mother.
I never saw my son.
Wow.
You've been married before.
, is that right?
, before Ursula?
(19:55):
No, sir.
Oh you had,
I was engaged to miss Cecilia Wellsback when I was living in Louisiana.
Her family the Wells family lived inAlexandria and we were engaged, but she
died before the wedding ever happened.
. The Wells family were very close friends of mine.
(20:18):
And it was because of them that I wasinvolved in an affair you may have
heard described as the Sandbar fight.
I have heard about the Sandbar fight.
And I was going to ask you aboutthis definitely because , it doesn't
sound like this originally startedas a dispute that you even had.
Is that right?
(20:39):
That is true, sir.
I was living near Alexandria, andthere were two major political factions
fighting for control of the town.
And when I say fighting, there wereduels, and there were altercations
that were not honorable as duels are.
And this one, began as a duelbetween Samuel Wells III and one
(21:05):
of the gentlemen on the Opposingfaction, but they were not hostile.
Personally, it began really as so manyduels do over the honor of a woman.
But all of the other men involved sawthis as an opportunity to promote this
(21:26):
hostility and create another duel.
And so, a duel was established, and Mr.
Wells was one of the principals.
And, since dueling is illegal inalmost every state, it's necessary
to go to an adjoining state tofight your duel and then come back.
(21:47):
And so, in fact, did you knowthe term cross the river was a
euphemism for fighting a duel?
We're going to cross the river.
You're going to go somewherewhere it's legal to fight
duel, is what they're saying.
No, it's
not legal, sir.
It's illegal there.
The citizens of Mississippiwould cross the river and fight
duels in Vidalia, Louisiana.
(22:10):
And we had to cross the river.
No one's going to cross into differentstate lines and come arrest you, so.
, if you go back to yourhome state you're secure.
There's no federal law against it.
It's just state laws.
, it was determined that our dualwould be fought on the first
sandbar on the Mississippiriver above the town of Natchez.
(22:33):
And I went just as a witnesswitnesses were important.
So because a dual was consideredhonorable and could only be
fought between gentlemen.
Why, if someone challenged you to aduel, sir, and you felt they were not
worthy, they were not a gentleman, youwould be within your rights to say no.
(22:55):
But if a gentleman challengedyou, sir, and you are a gentleman,
then you are obligated to accept.
And then you ask your secondto negotiate all the terms.
And when the time comes, you and yoursecond, and each of you will have
a physician, that's in case you're.
(23:15):
Wounded, but not too seriously,not fatally, and that's all
that's allowed on the field.
The witnesses have to stayback and can only watch.
But if someone cheats, thenit's within our rights as
witnesses to take our own action.
But there was no cheatingon this duel, sir.
(23:35):
Twice, the two principalsfaced each other.
And on the command, theyfired shots at each other.
Both times they missed, neitherwere experienced duelists.
And they shook hands and agreed togo to the other camp to have some
libation and celebrate, celebratethat there was no bloodshed.
(23:55):
But there was so much animositybetween we, the witnesses, we were
members of these political factions.
And as we came out on this field,Angry words were exchanged, and
guns appeared, and in that initialvolley, I was hit by a pistol ball.
(24:15):
I was not Incapacitated.
I rose up and began chasing thegentleman who had fired at me.
He threw his pistol, andit hit me in the head.
A big bloody gash appeared,
and I collapsed on the ground.
And then, members of the other sidewere coming out, and There was one
man there with whom a tremendousanimosity existed between us.
(24:39):
His name was Major Norris Wright.
He saw I was down, and he approachedme with his pistol leveled.
And uh, Mr.
McWhorter, he was the second with Mr.
Wells.
He gave me a pistol!
Major Wright and I exchanged shots, andI think we were both hit, but he stayed
on his feet, and I was trying to riseto mine, but I could not get there.
(25:03):
And then, Major Norris Wright pulled asword cane, and he advanced on me, and
so did two of his friends, and I hadnothing at this point to defend myself
with, except This big hunting knifethat I always carry, not much more than
a butcher knife, sir, a large butcherknife, but I used it as best I could.
(25:25):
I was stabbed several times, but whenMajor Wright plunged his sword into my
chest, I drove that knife up into hisand twisted it to cut the heart strings.
He collapsed on top of me.
Our blood mingling in the sand beneath us.
So you have his sword cane goingthrough your body right now.
(25:49):
You're on the ground and then youtake this knife, which I think
this knife has a name in our time.
I think they call it the Bowie knife.
And , you take this knife and youbasically cut his insides out.
And that's how the battle ends,with both of you having your
blades inside of each other?
There were multiple shots from otherpeople, but incredibly, as the fight
(26:12):
wound down, only two men had beenkilled, and a few others wounded,
but I was the most serious casualty.
In fact, the doctors, well, accordingto the Natchez newspaper that covered
it, The Natchez Aerial, it reportedthat, I saw it sir, it said Mr.
(26:33):
Blank Bui is not expectedto recover from his wounds.
Sir, they did not even know my first name.
But let me tell you something,within a short time that story
spread, and I emerged as the hero.
Maybe that's not altogether fair.
Maybe the heroes were the peacemakerstrying to stop the fighting there.
(26:55):
But anyway,
so that, that battle that duel at thesandbar, which wasn't even your duel
was the beginning of your notoriety.
Yes, sir.
It was indeed.
And my knife, as you pointed out,achieved a legendary status of its own.
, and yes, sir.
, even back then they begancalling it a Bowie knife.
(27:18):
Although some of the designs I'veseen that they call Bowie knives
bore no resemblance to that knife.
So your knife looks more like a butcherknife, and the knife that they call
the Bowie knife, or they call itthe Bowie knife or the Bowie knife,
.. I've heard it pronounced Bowie knife and Bowie knife, but our
family name, sir, is Bowie.
Right.
So, but that knife that ended up beingsold all over the world and , you can
(27:42):
still buy it today, is different thanthis knife that you used, which you're
saying looked more like a butcher knife,
. Any.
Large knife could be called a Bowie knife.
It was a Frontier Bragg.
This is a Bowie knife, not unlike,sir, the term Arkansas toothpick.
That was just a Frontier Braggattached to any large knife,
(28:04):
no specific pattern, not then.
Not in my day.
So who was making these knives?
I mean, you were pretty adept in business.
You were involved in allkinds of different businesses.
Did you decide to capitalize onthis and start making Bowie knives?
No, sir.
No, sir, I did not.
My older brother, Reason, becamesomewhat enamored of what had happened.
(28:28):
He had several very nice knivesbuilt that knives that he would
give to people especially those ofinfluence who might later help him.
Like myself, he had grown up in thebackwoods and we had hunted wild cattle
with just our hunting knives and a rope.
(28:48):
We'd rope them and gallopup and slash their throats.
And that was a lot more dangerous,but a lot more exciting than
just hunting them with a rifle.
And we enjoyed the excitement.
But reasons, eyesight began failing and Ifear he is probably very nearly blind now,
(29:09):
but he did
acquire knives by very skilled makers.
Our early knives were just made byblacksmiths that lived on our plantations.
And they were nothing to lookat, but well, they could save
your life in a situation.
Yeah.
They got the job done.
(29:30):
In your lifetime, you were a landspeculator, and I understand that
you were involved in the slave trade,and I think that you were involved
with selling lumber at some point?
Oh, yes, sir.
, it seems that you were veryinvolved in business and made a
lot of money throughout your life.
, why wouldn't you capitalize on thisBowie knife and this legend from
the Sandbar fight that was created?
(29:51):
I was not enamored by that, sir.
This may surprise you, I don'tconsider myself a violent man.
Do you know that Major NorrisWright was the only man I can ever
remember killing with a knife?
In fact, I don't think my brotherreason or I ever fought in a duel.
I don't consider thesandball fight to be a duel.
(30:14):
We weren't part of the duel.
We were the medley thathappened in the aftermath.
I have fought in battles but that'sfighting in a war, and that's different.
never occurred to me to promote my knife.
Reasons eyesight failed him.
several years after that, it was goingbad very fast and I was already in Texas,
(30:37):
but I came back to Louisiana and I pickedhim up and we went by boat around up
to the northeastern United States toseveral of the states, the New York and.
Massachusetts and Pennsylvanialooking for eye doctors that might
be able to help Reason's eyesight.
And I believe we were in Philadelphiawhen we met a man named Shively.
(31:01):
I believe his primarybusiness was , surgical tools.
. But he also made some cutlery onthe side and he had a Bowie knife
or two in his shop and Reasonbecame very attracted to it.
I think he must have ordered one from Mr.
Shively because the knife thatShively made for Reason was very
similar to Reason's hunting knife.
(31:24):
There was no guard, just astraight back to the knife.
But where Reason's knife andmine had simple wood handles Mr.
Shively, Made the blade so perfectlyclean and smooth and mounted it with horn
handles and silver bolsters engraved.
(31:44):
Ah, it was a thing of beauty.
So everybody's making money off this knifetrade in your name other than you and
I'm surprised to hear you say that you'venever killed a man with a knife before
Besides that story that you had justexplained about the sandbar battle But
are you like there are some people thatthink that you're this big knife fighter.
Are you not a knife fighter?
(32:05):
Is that not your expertise?
Even I have read somewhere that thisone knife that's being sold as a
Bowie knife was designed by me toincorporate features that would make
it a more effective killing weapon.
I find that outlandish.
I have never designed such a knife,and if you're in a bad pickle,
(32:28):
whatever you have, sir, will work.
And, indeed, my butcher knifeworked very well on the sandbar.
But, no, I would never labelmyself a knife fighter.
, I fought in a lot of battles.
And, very often, I've been outnumbered.
And, very often, we have triumphed,despite the fact that we were outnumbered.
(32:48):
That's something I wanted to ask youabout, because it appears that of the
different battles that you were in,whether they were wars or skirmishes.
I read one time that there was a timewhere you were searching for some sort
of silver mine and you ended up fighting.
Some native Americans and andyou were severely outnumbered
and lost hardly any men.
(33:09):
Why is it that you end up inthese battles and you win them?
When the odds are so stacked against you.
Oh, the San Shaba Indian fight.
Yes, sir.
That was after I had come to Texasand married Ursula, but we had
heard very enticing stories about.
Los Angeles silver mines being located up.
(33:32):
The Sanbar River and the Spanishhad built a mission up there and
a presidio, a fort to protect it.
But they were separated some distance.
The priests never wanted the presidiostoo close to the missions because
Presidio soldado were very oftenattracted to the Indian ladies, and
(33:55):
that could cause a lot of conflict.
So the priest always insisted thatthe Presidios be some distance away.
On this occasion, it did not workout well for the mission because
Comanche Indians, a great number,attacked And there are only a few
soldados actually stationed there.
And most of the, I think all threepriests and a number of others
(34:17):
were killed, but a few survived.
They managed to survive in ahouse that would burn it down.
And then in the darkness theymanaged to slip out and escape.
Even though the mission wasdestroyed and never restored the
Spanish kept their Presidio therefor another dozen years or so.
strengthening it.
(34:37):
And there was a lot of talk.
Why would they keep that Presidio thereunless they were protecting something?
And many have speculated that they hadbuilt a mine and were hiding silver
ingots there inside the mine, a minerich in silver, or that's the story, sir.
(34:57):
But Mr.
Austin believed it.
He had some maps made up, which wereIncluded the site of the Lost Silver
Mines up on the Sansevier River.
You keep saying Mr.
Austin.
Are you talking about Iforget his first name.
Stephen Fuller Austin, sir.
Okay, you're talking, you aretalking about Stephen Austin.
Okay, got it.
(35:18):
Keep going.
Yeah, Mr.
Austin, he was a man of peace.
He's the one who, as I said before,supervised those who came to Texas,
making sure that they were good qualitypeople, and that they would obey the
Mexican laws and not cause trouble.
But he was also trying toget people to come to Texas.
Is that
(35:39):
why he was making the maps?
Yes.
Yes, sir.
Anything to bring morecolonists into Texas.
So
Stephen Austin's maps propagandato bring people to Texas?
That was certainly oneof their intentions.
Did you ever find the mine?
I left Behar with myself, eightother men, and two servant boys.
(36:04):
And we ran into a small partyof rather friendly Comanches.
Fortunately, one of our number, Mr.
Caiaphas Ham, who was a friend ofmine from Louisiana, he'd come to
Texas with me, but he'd become anagent for the Comanche Indians, and
he had a good relationship with them,and they warned us that there was a
(36:26):
war party of Caddos and Tawakanas.
That were looking for blood.
And they knew that we were out thereand they were determined to find us.
Well, we told these Comanches, weappreciated their warning very much.
They were taking horses backinto Bay hard to trade them.
(36:48):
We continued on.
And after several days, we hadseen no sign of Indians and we were
getting close to the the abandonedPresidio up in the San Seba country.
And we woke up from our Kaplanmorning by a creek there and there the
Indians were, and for other reason.
Attempted to negotiate peacewith them, but they opened fire.
(37:10):
As I said, our total number was11 and two of those were boys.
And there must've been 150 warriorsand they kept coming at us,
but we kept driving them back.
scariest moment was they set fireto the grass that we were behind
trees along the Creek there alongthe Creek bank, but this fire, the
(37:30):
wind was blowing it towards us and.
You must realize our weapons requiredblack powder to be loaded individually,
and then the ball put in, and we carriedflasks or powder horns, and if we're
in a fire, those things could explode.
so, our only problem was, Chanceof survival was to put, those
(37:51):
down and go out and fight downthe flames with our blankets.
And we were not very successful, but thenthe wind turned and the flames receded.
And we went back into the treesand held off numerous more attacks.
They tried to circle behind us andthey did manage to kill one of our
(38:12):
men and wound a few more, but wedrove them off and darkness fell.
We could hear the Indians cryingout, moaning for their dead, and
during the night they removedas many bodies as they could.
But come the next morning,they had pretty much withdrawn.
We ventured out carefully fromour underbrush and we counted
(38:36):
50 blood spots in the grass.
We had lost one dead and three wounded.
It was an incredible victory, butwe stayed there a few more days.
We gave up on our desire tohunt for lost silver mines.
And when we felt it was absolutelysafe, we headed back to Bayhawk.
Now, the thing is, sir, those ComancheIndians had gone into town and told
(39:00):
the citizens there our party ofmen would certainly be massacred
by this large war party of Indians.
And so, even my wife, Ursula,was wearing widow's black.
We rode in at nightfall, andwe were nothing to look at.
We were tired, and our clotheswere We're haggard and dirty and,
(39:23):
but we were celebrated as thoughwe had risen from the dead, sir.
And in some people's mind, I guess we had.
Well, that's quite a story.
Those seem like the kind of odds thatyou're against right now at the Alamo.
Yes, sir.
But the problem is I was at mystrength then and here I am so weak.
(39:44):
I'm not sure I can evenget out of this bed.
Do you think that if you couldget out of that bed, that you may
have some impact on that battle?
And possibly women?
We number, I'm not even sure, 200 menperhaps, give or take, and Santana's
army, this is only the vanguard outthere, and they are 2500 strong.
(40:10):
Now,
we can't do anything now but fightand die, but that we are determined
to do, because we have boughttime, precious time for Texas.
If.
We had determined to leavethis place they call the Alamo
early on.
Maybe then we could have done so, butwe couldn't because we needed time for
(40:33):
Sam Houston to get those jackanapes atWashington to declare for independence.
And you may not know this, but , theAlamo was a Mexican mission, a Spanish
mission originally called the Alamo.
San Antonio de Valero and later it wassecularized and a company of soldados from
(40:55):
below the border from a little town calledAlamo de Paras were stationed there.
And so the old mission took their name.
It became known as the Alamo butit was never built as a fort.
, I told you about the massacreof the San Seban mission.
After that, all of the missions in SanAntonio had walls built to protect them.
(41:20):
They were meant to protect usfrom Indians firing arrows.
stone walls, but the mortar wasnot always the best by any means.
And the heights vary.
But the main problem we have,sir, those walls enclose more
than three acres of land.
This mission turned fortress is huge.
(41:43):
We have 200 men.
The other major reason we neededto defend this place was because
It had the largest collection ofartillery west of the Mississippi.
Which mostly we had captured from GeneralCoast when we had taken San Antonio.
But we couldn't givethis up to the Mexicans.
Now Sam Houston, he is a friend of mine.
(42:06):
We don't agree on everything,but we were both in Goliad.
And Houston decided that he feltwe should abandon the town of San
Antonio and the mission, the Alamo,and pull the cannons back to the east.
, and he sent me to San Antoniode Beja to accomplish this.
(42:28):
But I arrived there and realized we didnot have teams of mules, oxen, enough to
pull these artillery pieces out of there.
And besides that, these people InBexar, they needed our protection too,
but what I would have thought madelittle impression, but Governor Henry
Smith did not agree with Sam Houston.
(42:51):
I remember Houston wrote Smith aletter and said, , if you agree,
sir, I will order Bowie to pull theartillery back and abandon that place.
But instead, Governor Smithsent reinforcements there.
When I arrived, there was hardly morethan 100 men garrisoning that place.
(43:12):
And I arrived with 30 more men.
And then the next reinforcementsarrived sent by Governor Smith.
That was Lieutenant Colonel WilliamBarrett Travis, the young lawyer.
Then another group arrived laterand they included the very famous
David Crockett of Tennessee.
You know, he served inthe Congress for Tennessee.
(43:36):
Yeah.
But he had lost his last electionbecause he had opposed President
Jackson's Indian removal plan, whichled to that horrible trail of tears.
And it wasn't a good ideato oppose president Jackson.
And so Crockett lost his last election andI'll wager even you have heard about his
(43:57):
famous quote when he was leaving Tennesseeand as he was passing through Arkansas.
And as he came to Texas, every townhe stopped, he made a speech declaring
that since his constituents had failedto reelect him, why, they could go
to hell and he was going to Texas.
I don't think very many peopleget stabbed in the lung and live.
(44:17):
And yet somehow throughouthis life, buoy had this way of
beating the odds over and over.
It is so hard to separate the legend fromthe truth, because in reality, both were
larger than life and difficult to believe.
. And that is exactly whatmakes Jim buoys legacy.
So memorable.
In the next episode, Buddha isgoing to talk about his relationship
(44:38):
with John Lafitte, the pirate,his ingenious, and highly illegal
slave smuggling scheme and howhe sold pieces of the Louisiana
purchase that he didn't known.
That would eventuallybe known as buoy grants.
I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast.
If you haven't yet subscribed now,and we'll see you with the next
episode of the calling historypodcast with part two of James buoy.
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