April 17, 2024 • 43 mins
In Part 2 of the 1863 conversation with Nathaniel Hawthorne, he’ll explain why he can’t seem to write while the war ravages his nation. He’ll also further demonstrate how all his writing was not doom and gloom with his story The Celestial Railroad. And he’ll tell us how Sophia, his wife, saved the day when he was fired from his job and thought he was broke.
Start episode 2 to join the conversation.
-----
Since 2018, Paul Riopelle has been portraying Nathaniel Hawthorne at The House of the Seven Gables in Salem, Massachusetts. He has also regularly appeared as the author at other historical Hawthorne sites, including The Old Manse and The Wayside in Concord. You can catch Paul in-person as Hawthorne in his one-man show, Haunted Fables at the Gables, presented each October at The House of the Seven Gables in Salem.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Welcome back to part two of NathanielHawthorne in the last episode, we talked
about Hawthorne writing a biographythat may have caused president Pierce to
be elected despite his numerous flaws.
On a side note, Pierce's generallylisted as our 40th best president.
He also talked about Lincoln andhow he was harshly critiqued after
(00:49):
writing honestly about the president.
In this episode, he'll expandfurther on his most productive
time writing after getting married.
The lucrative job that stifledhis creativity again, and his
relationship with Herman Melville.
So what's the year right now and the day?
Today is actually the 4th of July.
It's 1863.
(01:10):
Today is happens to be my birthday.
And Yes.
We are squarely in the thick of the.
Well, happy birthday.
And speaking of yourbirthday, I'd heard once
that you had told
your sister in law that you
didn't want to
live to be 60 years
(01:30):
old.
Aren't you 59?
I am 59?
today.
Yes.
And did you actually say that?
well, I think Elizabeth has been
gossiping a little bit.
I did in fact,
just very recently saythat to her as my birthday.
approached.
I'll have to have
a
word
with her after this discussion, but Ithink she may have taken me a little
(01:55):
more
literally or seriously than I meant
it.
As I mentioned to you earlier, I've been.
Experiencing some health issuessome abdominal pain, which comes
And goes, but it is quite taxing whenit occurs, and , , some diminishing
vision, and just an overallWeakness and fatigue, I'm realizing
(02:19):
that I'm not nearly as young as
I used to be.
And I suppose, rather offhandedly, Isaid to Elizabeth just the other day
that I'm not sure I want to live to 60.
And I suppose by that, I
simply meant that?
. If the body is going to continue todecline in this way I certainly would
not want to be a burden of any kind to my
(02:42):
loved ones, my wife And my family.
And so one would rather, one mightrather go out while they're still
in working order.
Let's talk about
the Scarlet Letter.
The Scarlet Letter
is
Read in nearly every
school in the nation now.
It is a very important piece ofAmerican literature I guess I'm
(03:07):
wondering, what
inspired
, that story?
As you may or may not
know certainly everyonein Salem where I grew
up
were aware of my.
history.
My ancestors were all Puritans andnot terribly kind Puritans at that.
(03:27):
My great great great grandfatheractually came over with the
first Puritans from England.
He was on that Famous ship, theArbella, and he became a very prominent
politician and judge in Salem.
And I just find it so ironic that
(03:48):
the Puritans came over forreligious tolerance and then
had none of their own for anyoneoutside of the Puritan religion.
Isn't that the way it
works?
And and worst of all WilliamHawthorne, who was my, great,
great, great grandfather.
(04:09):
He was a terribly cruel man and was known
to, to flog the Quakers in the streetsof Salem and Terribly cruel man.
His son possibly even more cruel.
His son, John Hawthorne wasone of the major magistrates
at the Salem witch trials uh, since.
(04:30):
19 innocent people
to the gallows, saw many more die inprisons, saw one man crushed to death with
stones being tortured to give testimonyhe became known as the Hanging Judge.
John Hawthorne.
These were some of my ancestors.
And so, yes, I was terribly influencedin my writing by the tyranny in general
(04:57):
of society, hypocrisy in general.
The fact that the Puritans should fleefrom England because they were being
persecuted and then carry on the sametype of persecution themselves, to me,
was perhaps the worst injustice that
could be
done.
And so I wanted to write a story, examining the moral hypocrisy
(05:23):
of that kind of persecution.
so the, tale of the ScarletLetter is about just that,
It's about a woman who has a child.
Out of wedlock.
She believes she's a widow.
And she has an
affair with a
local man And has a child . This isknown as adultery to the Puritans.
(05:47):
And so they force her to weara scarlet embroidered A for
adulterous upon her bodice,
upon her clothing at all timesto be a living testament
to her sins.
What they really want is to shame
her into revealing the
identity of the father,
(06:07):
which she refuses to do.
So it's an examination of awoman who has a spirit that has
no hypocrisy in her.
She is willing to take on her ownpunishment, and also protect her father.
The father of her child.
(06:28):
Meanwhile, we examine all of theseother people in the town, including
her former husband, who isactually very much alive and shows
up in the town, and they're allcarrying around these secret sins.
Their own vanities, their own
prejudices, and they are treating Hester,they're persecuting Hester, while Carrying
(06:54):
their own secret sins within them.
And so it was , an examination of this
Hypocritical persecution
that the Puritans of my ancestorsand their contemporaries perpetrated.
The actual
letter, the scarlet letter,
What is,
your thinking behind that, where did that come from?
(07:16):
Well, I think you're probably referring
to the the introduction thatI wrote to the Scarlet Letter
which is a little sketch
called the Custom House.
Wherein
I sort of claim
to, during my actual timeserving as surveyor of the
Salem Custom House, I go up
(07:36):
into the attic of thebuilding and I happen
to rummage through
some boxes and some papers there
and I find this scarlet, EmbroideredA with a narrative of this woman,
Hester Prynne, and all of thethings that happened to her.
(07:57):
Back in, in The, Puritan
age.
And so I then claim to take
, these details and expand them into alarger narrative on behalf of the spirit
of this wronged woman, Hester Prynne.
Again, in my
own personal fondness for ambiguity.
(08:19):
I am not going to claim that wasn't true.
You'll just have todecide that for yourself.
I, had read that and I didn't understand
this at all, but this
first chapter about the customshouse and finding the letter a,
that for some reason therewas something scandalous or
this was a, significant chapter that
(08:40):
made people want to read this book.
What was
it about that first chapter that
was so significant to thepeople wanting to read this?
Well, as you may know I was appointed
to the Salem CustomHouse , it's a political
appointment.
And so, I had
Some weighty
political friends who were able to get
me this
(09:00):
fairly lucrative job as
surveyor of the Salem Custom House.
And it was certainly a,
A lucrative job, but verydamaging to my creativity.
I did not write at all duringmy whole stay in that position.
However.
Three years later, when the administration
(09:23):
changed and the Democratswere voted out of office
and Zachary Taylor, a, Whig,
was voted into the presidency I
very
quickly lost that job, lost that
political appointment, and so,
In what you might call fit of,
Disgruntledness.
(09:44):
I wrote this rather
sarcastic
sketch lampooning many of the custom
house officers who wereall very well known.
Politicians and officers to allof the citizens of Salem.
And it was rather a scandalous treatmentof these men who were generally revered.
(10:09):
Of course, by all
counts, it
was satire.
But I think a great many peoplePeople in Salem wanted to read
this rather scandalous account of theseweighty citizens that everyone knew.
And so it was actually a remarkable saleof the, in the first 10 days, we sold
(10:33):
2, 500 copies of the Scarlet letter.
And it has been suggested that thosesales were, as you say, in large part
due to the the introductionthe custom house sketch.
You had said
a minute ago that,
When you were working
at the customs
house, that it wasdamaging to your writing.
(10:56):
And
As I've studied your
life, It appears that
there were lots
of different times where
you were trying to write or wanted to
write, maybe wanted todo more writing than
you were
doing, but something got in the way.
And then there is this periodafter you get married To your wife,
(11:19):
, Sophia, where it seemed like right after
that, or right about that
time you put out
Some very important works, which
included the ScarletLetter and the Seven Gables
Is that true?
Is
that the time, where you
did your best writing?
There was a very
prolific period of time rightafter my marriage to Sophia.
(11:40):
Well, it wasn't directly after the
marriage.
We lived for three years in Concord.
In a house that we
rented from Ralph Waldo Emerson's step
grandfather.
It's all rather incestuous in
Concord.
But there there was this verygrand house called the Old Manse
(12:01):
that was
owned by the Emerson family and they
were kind
enough to rent it to usfor a hundred dollars.
So we were able to live
A very blissful first threeyears of our marriage at the
old man's in Concord and Sophia.
(12:21):
painted and I wrote and sometimessold apples in town in order to,
Earn A few extra pennies.
It was
during the stretch right afterthe Custom House Sophia was my
savior , in many moments of my life.
But that time in particular,when I lost my position at the
(12:44):
custom house and we had three
children at the time, andI did not know how we were
going to move forward.
And as
it turns out Sophia opened adrawer and pulled out a tremendous
nest egg that she had secretly
put away.
For the three years that I hadworked at the Custom House and
(13:08):
had created a sizable amount
indeed that allowed me thenfor the next many months
To simply stay at home and write.
And it was, that was the beginning of that
prolific stretch of which you speak.
The Scarlet Letter wasfinished within that
same year then,
(13:30):
as you say The scandalous nature ofthe Custom House sketch was enough to
decide that we might want to move
out of Salem for a little while.
So we moved to Lenox, Massachusetts,
where I wrote my next romance, whichwas The House of the Seven Gables.
And . During that
(13:50):
same time, I also wrote my firstchildren's book, which was called a wonder
book for girls and boys, which was are imagining of many of the Greek myths
of mythology.
, And I also began.
Writing my third romance, which wasthe Blithedale Romance, of which I
spoke earlier, based on Brook Farm.
(14:12):
So, you're quite right.
There was between 1850 and 1852 avery productive time for me, indeed.
It's a
shame that you didn'thave that thousand dollars
back from Brooke farm,
because that would have.
That would have bought you10 years rent in that house.
You could have just
That's A very good point.
A very good
point, indeed.
(14:32):
So,
The character Hester'schild in is her name Pearl?
Is that right?
In the Scarlet
Yes.
seems
like a very important
character.
But I'm not sure why.
I think you may be referring to
what many writers have intimatedabout the character of Pearl.
She is a very
(14:54):
kind of strange mercurial
child who one moment issort of angelic and the next
moment is very
mischievous and says
inappropriate
things in public in thePuritan society and, is unruly
And then the next moment, very loving and,
She's just a very impish, mercurial
(15:15):
child and friends and otherwriters have speculated that
Pearl was likely based upon my own
first child our daughter
Una who Is very similar in
in character.
and nature.
Is that the truth?
Ambiguity.
(15:36):
You know, I asked thatquestion knowing that there
was no way that you
were going to answer.
but it's probably better that you don't.
So
what about, is it TheHouse of Seven Gables?
Is that what it's
called?
House of the Seven Gables.
. I've been to that
house.
You never lived in that house.
You didn't own that
house.
Correct.
No, it was owned by the
family of
(15:57):
my second cousin, Susanna Ingersoll.
But , I visited her oftenover the years, growing up.
And Susanna used to lead methrough the house and point
out the changes in architecturethrough the history of the house.
And this fascinated me.
At the time that I
(16:17):
visited her and that shelived there, there were
only three gables.
Left on the house.
It had been,
renovated
From the time that
it was originally built.
And it only had three gables at the timethat we actually visited, but she brought
me up to the Garrett, up to the attic and
showed me where the,
(16:37):
original beams
that had supported all sevenof the original gables.
And this idea of
a house.
that had So many of
these
Grand gables captured my
attention.
And I started
to mull over how that
might play into a narrative.
Is this how your, thewriting comes to you?
Because looking at a couple of
(16:58):
stories.
Okay.
So the scarlet letter, you explainedyour family's history, which by the
way, and I forgot to ask you about this.
that true that that's why you
Added a
letter to your name, get away from
your family
Much has been made of this
speculation that before my
adulthood our family's name was spelled
(17:22):
H A T H
O R N E.
So,
it looks like it might havebeen pronounced Haythorn
or Hathorn.
But that,
Somehow when I came of
age I added a
W
to the family name inorder to distance myself
from the guilt and shame I felt
(17:43):
over my my association with my ancestors.
Now, I'd like to
clarify that the name hasalways been pronounced
Hawthorne.
So, it only looked in
writing as if it might
have been
Hathorne or Hathorne, but it'salways been pronounced Hawthorne.
(18:06):
So, there are three different
explanations
for why I might've changed
that
spelling.
The first, as you say, is that
Guilt
association with my ancestors.
the second is that
It's possible that Icould simply have wanted
(18:27):
to have it read the way it
sounds, the way that
it's
actually pronounced.
the third explanationis that there has been,
During this.
last couple of decades,a new fashion to change
the family name back to the originalEnglish spelling the family name,
(18:52):
which was initially with a W.
So
all three of those are completely
logical.
reasons that could be offered.
As a
storyteller the ancestor story Is
much
more fun.
So again, I will leave it to my readersto decide what my motivations were.
(19:12):
So the question
I actually was asking, soyou look at the Scarlet
letter,
and the inspiration comesfrom your family history.
You go to the story mosses
from an old manse.
Okay.
And there was the
house
that you lived in
I think that was called Old Mance,and then you look at the house of
the seven gables and the history of
that
And you mentioned the Blythdalestory and that had to do with
(19:38):
the commune that you were at.
It seems clear that you'rejust walking around and
noticing things or payingattention to what's going on in
the world.
And then you get inspiredand your imagination
creates some fantastic
story, which leads me to the
question.
How did
your friend
Melville,
herman Melville, I think you're referring.
Melville start writing astory about a giant fish.
(20:00):
So where did that come from?
Your
friend, you were friends with him, weren't
you?
I was, indeed.
I lived in Lenox, when our family livedup in Lenox in the old red farmhouse,
Melville lived about five miles away inHis homestead that he called Arrowhead.
It was actually in Pittsfield.
And we happened to meet quite by chance,
(20:22):
On a picnic with some mutualfriends in the Berkshires.
And we met and found a veryimmediate kinship and connection.
Our.
Writing styles were very similar.
Our philosophies were nearly identical.
And the way that we expressedourselves, although Melville is much
(20:45):
more effusive and overt I'm muchmore reserved . But certainly the way
that we express ourselves one might.
Kindly call it eloquenceis very similar as well.
And so we formed a rather immediate and Imight say intense friendship very quickly.
(21:07):
This was in 1850, 51.
And you were asking about howhe was writing a story , about
the whale, the white whale,
I certainly can't speak for Melville
in terms of how he initially came up with
his
his tale.
, I mean, he had a,
He had a history himselfof working on whale ships,
(21:27):
Do you find that , as you aregoing throughout the world that you
just find inspiration likethat from everything though?
Well, certainly, a writergenerally, if anything strikes his
fancy, will write it downfor future use somehow.
Okay.
me a little bit more about
Herman
Melville and
(21:48):
your relationship with him, because
Some think that
relationship was more than just friendly.
Okay.
Well, I think that
people will gossip and theywill say what they will say.
Mr.
Melville was a dear friend
continues to be we did,
We have sort of
separation.
, after the intensity of the initialbond that we discovered in Lennox.
(22:13):
It , Cooled in the sense that weboth went on to other pursuits., I
would not want to say anything that,
Disrespects
Mr.
Melville.
So I will
be mum on whatever suggestions
that other people may be
making about our relationshipthat may be anything more than a A
(22:35):
close friendship and
, Kindred of spirit.
I will say that Mr.
Melville
was deeply kind
In dedicating his
masterwork to me.
Moby Dick was
was dedicated,
To me and Melville
actually handed me thevery first printed copy.
(22:56):
of the book.
And I promptly went hometo the little red cottage
And read it
, in a single
sitting.
So I was very
touched by his dedication.
And I found the
book to have some technical problems, butthe spirit behind it was mighty indeed.
(23:16):
And it was certainly his very best work.
You have the first copy
of Moby Dick and It is
dedicated to you at the front of
it,
Indeed.
You may want to pass that through your
family generations.
Um, Cause there's a
lot of people down the road
that would be very happy if you did that.
(23:37):
Let's talk about
the House of Seven Gables.
Tell me a little bit about that story.
Where did that come from?
The first stirrings of the ideawere touring the house more than
once with Susanna, my second cousin.
Again, It is a tale about,
Injustice hypocrisy andit begins during the
(24:00):
Salem witch trials.
It's a tale about A man whocovets another man's land.
The
man who Is coveting the land.
It happens
to be a very powerful magistrateduring the Salem witch trials,
and he, accuses the landowner ofwitchcraft in order to see him hanged
(24:22):
and effectively steal his land.
He is successful in this.
And upon the gallows, thelandowner, Matthew Moll
pronounces a curse on the judge.
And,
His entire
line, all of his descendants.
And he says, If you take my life,God will give you blood to drink.
(24:45):
And all of your descendants.
And of course he goesthrough with the execution.
And the judge, whose familyname is Pynchon this magistrate,
Judge Pynchon decides to build agrand family mansion on this very
square of earth that he has stolen
From this farmer.
(25:06):
So he builds this enormous mansion.
with seven gables, a very
ornate family mansion.
And
on the day that it is to beconsecrated, he throws a huge party
and invites the entire town
, to witness the consecration andto celebrate the opening of the
(25:27):
house.
Of course when The hourcomes and the party happens.
The judge is nowhere to be found.
And eventually they find him in his study
having choked
on his own blood.
This sets in motion a generationalcurse that proves true.
Generation after generation paythe price of this injustice
(25:50):
done to this farmer until.
There, there comes a time in the finalgeneration where the wrong is righted.
And so it's a story aboutredemption and justice and penance.
this whole backdrop
of
(26:10):
the,
The ownership of the land
and the dispute of that, did somethinglike that happen in your life or in
your
family's
life?
Nothing specific comes to mind.
It was just a, an invention ofone of any different kind of
injustices that might've been done.
, Nobody
makes it on their own.
Who are
the people that
(26:30):
are most responsible
for your success other than you?
comes immediately to mind.
She has been my savior
throughout my life.
Certainly I was
a lost soul until I found her.
And
Meeting her changed theentire direction of my life.
(26:51):
I was a painfully shy young man,
very
reclusive, and
Sophia was as well.
In fact, up until,
We met from the
age of 13 or
so,
she suffered from verydebilitating headaches.
She was called an invalid by herfamily and spent most of her time in
(27:11):
her room as did I for all those years.
And so when we met, I think there was an
immediate bond and recognition of
that kinship of our
souls in one another.
It was very passionateand it has never waned.
Since then and almost immediatelyI found my way , we had a blissful
(27:36):
first three years of marriage in theold man's and Concord returning to
Salem we had a very solid stretchwhile I worked at the Salem Custom
House and we began raising our children.
And then with the enormous success ofthe Scarlet Letter and the House of
the Seven Gables it sort of cementedmy ability continue to write.
(28:01):
And Sophia was was instrumental insaving all of that money so that I
could continue to writeand she has just been.
Well, I think I once wrotethat she was my sole companion
and , that's all thecompanionship that I needed.
(28:21):
, It sounds
like she needed you as much as youneeded her, because I heard that
, that these migraines,
they just
disappeared,
, for no reason, well, for some
reason, once you, the two ofyou came together, is that
true?
it is true
The headache as we call it miraculouslyfaded and by the time we were actually
married, they were almost entirely gone.
(28:44):
So I, I think that we found something inone another that whatever psychological
Causes that might have inhibited bothof our lives to that point were sort
of resolved in, in finding one another.
This could be one of yournew titles, so there's,
Writer and surveyor and
(29:04):
custom officer and medicine
I'll leave medicine.
to the doctors.
Thank you.
Did you write somethingcalled the celestial
railroad?
The Celestial railroad?
I did indeed.
Yes.
Well,
Again, this is just another
one of those things.
Well, how are you gettinginvolved in the railroads?
It wasn't it wasn't an actual
railroad.
Of
course the story you're referring tois actually a satire on a very well
(29:28):
known book by John Bunyan, calledThe Pilgrim's Progress and most uh,
New Englanders are very aware of this
story.
It was second in popularity only
to the Bible.
And it's a story about,
A pilgrim who takes this long odyssey
through forests and mountains and valleysand he is seeking the kingdom of heaven
(29:53):
or what he calls the Celestial City.
And he's tempted all along the wayby sundry, scurrilous characters
to depart from his path and to
to be tempted away from his faith.
It was a very popular
book.
Obviously it's a parablefor the journey of faith.
(30:14):
Well, I thought I might usePilgrim's Progress and , write
a bit of a satire on it.
And so it's a very similar pilgrimage butit's made easier by the fact that instead
of doing this long, arduous hike on foot.
You can just hop on the railroad
And get
to your destination.
So,
(30:35):
I see.
Do you have a favorite piece of
work that you've written?
I suppose there are tales that I haveinvested more of myself into than others.
I think it, entirely dependsupon the mood I'm in at the time.
If I'm in a somber mood,
, some of the more gloomy romances orsome of the short stories that are,
(30:58):
have a little more cynicism to them.
I do enjoy revisiting some of themore humorous sketches as well.
So, It's it's a difficult question to
answer.
It's like saying
which one of your children is your
favorite?
When you talk about writing humor, whatwas something humorous that you wrote?
I'm not, I'm actually notfamiliar with any of your
Humorous
work.
(31:18):
Well, certainly thestory you just mentioned.
For instance it's a satire.
And so, it's a parody of a rather seriousbook and so I think that anyone who is
familiar with Pilgrim's Progress will,
Get a great deal of amusement outof reading the Celestial Railroad.
(31:41):
There's a story I wrote called Mrs.
Bullfrog about a man who hasbeen a bachelor for years and
he doesn't want to get marrieduntil he finds the perfect woman.
And he finally finds this angeliccreature who has glossy curls in
her hair and beautiful white teeth.
teeth and is the most angelicpersonality he's ever met.
(32:04):
And he knows her for
all of two weeks or so,and he decides to marry
her.
And on the stage coach.
Heading towards their honeymoon.
The stage coach hits a bump inthe road and is overturned and as
they're all getting out of thecoach and collecting themselves Mr.
Bullfrog says all of a sudden myangelic wife reappeared and
(32:28):
there was an ogre there.
Inexplicably.
And there was a curly wig onthe ground and there was a set
of white dentures on the sand.
And, And this this ogre who I'd never seenbefore was attacking the coach driver.
And I had to help himget the coach uprighted.
And as soon as I did, all of asudden the ogre was gone and my
(32:51):
beautiful angelic wife reappeared.
And so yes I've written a great deal ofhumorous tales several of them in twice
told tales and mosses from an old man's
it never ceases to amaze me that I'mknown largely as a novelist now when
a great deal of my early career wasspent in writing dozens and dozens
(33:14):
of short stories of all different
ilks and some of those humorous
satirical
sketches are among
my favorites.
, you have written quite a few of those shorter stories
Compared to the longer novels.
Is there one that youprefer over the other?
As a writer,
You are inspired
to, write
either long form or short form.
(33:36):
Certainly if the reading public desiresa longer form and this is what is
commercially going to keepyou going as a writer.
And this is where you've achieved some.
more notable
success than, , certainly the commercial
element plays
into the
projects that you
take on.
I see.
(33:56):
, if you're not going to sell
some books, you can't be a
writer.
So that's correct.
In fact, the fourth romancethat I wrote, the one I
wrote in Europe wascalled the, marble fawn.
I was actually
encouraged to write a story that would be,long enough to fill two or three volumes.
And I was criticized heavily for thisbecause much of what we would call the.
(34:23):
extraneous detail that I put init , lengthy descriptions of
buildings or locales in order tomake the story longer because I was
encouraged to do so, thinking that itmight be more commercially lucrative.
And then of course, whenI acquiesced and did it,
(34:43):
I was criticized for,
for,
padding
my novel
It's just more proof thatpeople don't actually know
what
they want.
and the publishers think They know.
what
they want and they think They
think they
know
what the public wants.
They don't know.
They're
just guessing like
everybody else.
always the case.
I've spent quite a bit of timein Europe and I know you spent
(35:03):
some time, I think in Rome.
I feel like when I am in Italy,that all I want to do is write
because everything inspires me.
Did you have an
experience like that?
Well, that's where wrote thethe majority of the marble faun.
And it was all based onexperiences in Rome and Florence.
And,
(35:24):
When you compare it to the
foggy damp climate of
England or Liverpool or even ofnew England the Sunny, light,
joyous of the place is in allof Italy is deeply inspiring.
And of course, all ofthe art that's around us.
(35:45):
I mean, my wife, Sophia, isa gifted artist and just was
in her prime.
Splendor in Rome and Florence and
we we loved it.
We really did.
It did our family good.
We were tourists
for three years and
it brought our
family closer together.
It was A joyous
(36:06):
time.
Well,
is completely going a different
direction.
A while ago, I had one of theseconversations with a person that
I was absolutely fascinated with.
And I couldn't even believethat I was able to, and It was
right before he was executed.
And his name was John Brown.
I understand that you havesome feelings about John Brown.
(36:28):
Mr.
Thoreau would never forgiveme for sharing those.
But I do not ascribe to Emersonand Thoreau's assessment
that it was a death
as venerable as the cross.
, I believe that the man was basically a
fanatic.
.There were many abolitionists who believe very strongly in their cause,
(36:51):
but did not resort to the sortof violence that John Brown did.
And
so I, I do not agree that
he was a
martyr
of any kind.
He definitely took theviolence to, to a high level.
That's
for sure.
That's true.
Although others might've
espoused it, he
was the only one that
ever carried it
(37:12):
out.
So what is the story thatyou haven't written yet?
What's the one that's in your head
that you just, you haven'tquite put it on paper yet.
Either it's a different genre or.
It's just something
that you haven't got to
yet.
Well, you know, as I said I've been I'vebeen struggling with several different
new romance novels three in particular.
(37:33):
And I just can't seem to, make headwayon, on any of them because My sadness
with what is happening in the country.
Curiously, two out of three ofthe, novels that I'm currently
working on, they take place
in the house that I wooed my
wife in, the actual house in Salem.
(37:53):
Next to the old burying groundthere where Sophia and her sisters
lived it's called the Grimshaw houseand one of the , romances that I'm
writing is called Dr.
Grimshaw's Secret, and the other is calledthe Dolliver Romance, and both of those
tales take place in that houseI'm not able to break through I
(38:16):
think , it's very interesting.
Today, as you said, is my 59th birthdayand our country's birthday, the 4th
of July for the past three days wehave been involved in one of the
bloodiest battles of this conflictit's been on a battlefield called
Gettysburg and many young men on bothsides have been slain and maimed.
(38:43):
And I just I ask myself Iunderstand the plight of slavery.
And I understand the vehemencebehind it to eradicate it.
But my question is how canone tragedy justify another?
Slavery is a tragedy.
(39:04):
But so is this war, andit is not an easy answer.
And I struggle.
I struggle with it.
I'm struggling with failing health,and my, my children are growing.
And so life is
more complex than
it used to be.
(39:24):
You've mentioned , what's happening withthe war right now and the state of the
union right now and everything beingvery challenging and dark and upsetting.
And I understand.
How your health and the problemsyou're having with your stomach
would interfere with your writing,but considering how you are the
kind of person that delves into the
nature of why people do whatthey do and explores that
(39:48):
deeply, it almost seems like the
war and the absurdity of this.
Might almost be inspiration to write
something for you becauseit is all about human
nature.
, every person would say, if youwere to ask them about, , killing
another person, is that wrong?
Every one of them, I'm going to say,yeah, I don't want to kill somebody.
And yet, , tens, thousands of
(40:09):
them dying every single day.
And it's,
, it is this.
absurdity, this
inconsistency of human nature.
It just seems like thiswould be inspiration.
Does
that make sense at all?
It does.
It does.
and, yet all I can say isthat I'm, I'm, I'm tired.
I'm tired.
and I don't know, if I could muster areflection on something that massive.
(40:37):
. It's a fine question and one toponder, but, , I just find myself
more and more tired, both physically
And
creatively.
Well, I have enjoyed this conversation.
And as far as being tired, I hope
that you find a bottle of energysomewhere and drink it because we
(40:59):
are very thankful for your work
well,
I'm certainly hoping torevive my spirits here.
, when this
sort of fatigue sets in I generallyenjoy going on some sort of a hike
up in the White Mountains of NewHampshire with my dear friend Pierce.
And we have been talking For quite sometime about about another long hike to
(41:26):
revive both of our spirits and bodies.
, Hopefully, the two of us will find atime to get back to the White Mountains.
I've written several stories abouthiking in the White Mountains.
It's a beautiful placethat I always find myself
revived.
So, I certainly hope to do that
(41:47):
sometime soon.
Thank you again for your time today.
Gosh,
I thank you, sir.
It couldn't be more clear how tiredand worn Hawthorne is as he considers
the state of our union at war.
And yet I can't help, butwonder if it was more than that.
His connection to the Salem witchtrials would have been a part
of his life since he was young.
(42:09):
As he aged and spent time aroundbrilliant writers, able to
express their views of the world.
Those dark thoughts had beeninside of him for a long time
and were looking for a way out.
And yet, instead of telling us howwe should think Hawthorne used his
gift to put the facts in front of usso that we could decide on our own.
Reaching the end of his greatestworks didn't result in the answering
(42:32):
of questions, but instead as theinspiration for us to ask them and
wonder why we all do what we do.
Why did the man wear the blackveil and never remove it?
It's a shame that his brief productiveperiods of writing didn't last
longer, especially after the warended who knows what extraordinary
writings may have been completed.
(42:53):
If he'd had time to digestthe war and how it ended.
What might he have written afterexploring the only time in American
history that might've been darker?
Then his family's legacyof the Salem witch trials.
Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that when you tell afriend about the calling history podcast.
Ghosts of overlooked historical figures.
We'll occasionally unload yourdishwasher and do your laundry.
(43:15):
I'm Tony Dean.
And until next time I'm history.
Welcome back to part two of NathanielHawthorne in the last episode, we talked
about Hawthorne writing a biographythat may have caused president Pierce to
be elected despite his numerous flaws.
On a side note, Pierce's generallylisted as our 40th best president.
He also talked about Lincoln andhow he was harshly critiqued after
(00:49):
writing honestly about the president.
In this episode, he'll expandfurther on his most productive
time writing after getting married.
The lucrative job that stifledhis creativity again, and his
relationship with Herman Melville.
So what's the year right now and the day?
Today is actually the 4th of July.
It's 1863.
(01:10):
Today is happens to be my birthday.
And Yes.
We are squarely in the thick of the.
Well, happy birthday.
And speaking of yourbirthday, I'd heard once
that you had told
your sister in law that you
didn't want to
live to be 60 years
(01:30):
old.
Aren't you 59?
I am 59?
today.
Yes.
And did you actually say that?
well, I think Elizabeth has been
gossiping a little bit.
I did in fact,
just very recently saythat to her as my birthday.
approached.
I'll have to have
a
word
with her after this discussion, but Ithink she may have taken me a little
(01:55):
more
literally or seriously than I meant
it.
As I mentioned to you earlier, I've been.
Experiencing some health issuessome abdominal pain, which comes
And goes, but it is quite taxing whenit occurs, and , , some diminishing
vision, and just an overallWeakness and fatigue, I'm realizing
(02:19):
that I'm not nearly as young as
I used to be.
And I suppose, rather offhandedly, Isaid to Elizabeth just the other day
that I'm not sure I want to live to 60.
And I suppose by that, I
simply meant that?
. If the body is going to continue todecline in this way I certainly would
not want to be a burden of any kind to my
(02:42):
loved ones, my wife And my family.
And so one would rather, one mightrather go out while they're still
in working order.
Let's talk about
the Scarlet Letter.
The Scarlet Letter
is
Read in nearly every
school in the nation now.
It is a very important piece ofAmerican literature I guess I'm
(03:07):
wondering, what
inspired
, that story?
As you may or may not
know certainly everyonein Salem where I grew
up
were aware of my.
history.
My ancestors were all Puritans andnot terribly kind Puritans at that.
(03:27):
My great great great grandfatheractually came over with the
first Puritans from England.
He was on that Famous ship, theArbella, and he became a very prominent
politician and judge in Salem.
And I just find it so ironic that
(03:48):
the Puritans came over forreligious tolerance and then
had none of their own for anyoneoutside of the Puritan religion.
Isn't that the way it
works?
And and worst of all WilliamHawthorne, who was my, great,
great, great grandfather.
(04:09):
He was a terribly cruel man and was known
to, to flog the Quakers in the streetsof Salem and Terribly cruel man.
His son possibly even more cruel.
His son, John Hawthorne wasone of the major magistrates
at the Salem witch trials uh, since.
(04:30):
19 innocent people
to the gallows, saw many more die inprisons, saw one man crushed to death with
stones being tortured to give testimonyhe became known as the Hanging Judge.
John Hawthorne.
These were some of my ancestors.
And so, yes, I was terribly influencedin my writing by the tyranny in general
(04:57):
of society, hypocrisy in general.
The fact that the Puritans should fleefrom England because they were being
persecuted and then carry on the sametype of persecution themselves, to me,
was perhaps the worst injustice that
could be
done.
And so I wanted to write a story, examining the moral hypocrisy
(05:23):
of that kind of persecution.
so the, tale of the ScarletLetter is about just that,
It's about a woman who has a child.
Out of wedlock.
She believes she's a widow.
And she has an
affair with a
local man And has a child . This isknown as adultery to the Puritans.
(05:47):
And so they force her to weara scarlet embroidered A for
adulterous upon her bodice,
upon her clothing at all timesto be a living testament
to her sins.
What they really want is to shame
her into revealing the
identity of the father,
(06:07):
which she refuses to do.
So it's an examination of awoman who has a spirit that has
no hypocrisy in her.
She is willing to take on her ownpunishment, and also protect her father.
The father of her child.
(06:28):
Meanwhile, we examine all of theseother people in the town, including
her former husband, who isactually very much alive and shows
up in the town, and they're allcarrying around these secret sins.
Their own vanities, their own
prejudices, and they are treating Hester,they're persecuting Hester, while Carrying
(06:54):
their own secret sins within them.
And so it was , an examination of this
Hypocritical persecution
that the Puritans of my ancestorsand their contemporaries perpetrated.
The actual
letter, the scarlet letter,
What is,
your thinking behind that, where did that come from?
(07:16):
Well, I think you're probably referring
to the the introduction thatI wrote to the Scarlet Letter
which is a little sketch
called the Custom House.
Wherein
I sort of claim
to, during my actual timeserving as surveyor of the
Salem Custom House, I go up
(07:36):
into the attic of thebuilding and I happen
to rummage through
some boxes and some papers there
and I find this scarlet, EmbroideredA with a narrative of this woman,
Hester Prynne, and all of thethings that happened to her.
(07:57):
Back in, in The, Puritan
age.
And so I then claim to take
, these details and expand them into alarger narrative on behalf of the spirit
of this wronged woman, Hester Prynne.
Again, in my
own personal fondness for ambiguity.
(08:19):
I am not going to claim that wasn't true.
You'll just have todecide that for yourself.
I, had read that and I didn't understand
this at all, but this
first chapter about the customshouse and finding the letter a,
that for some reason therewas something scandalous or
this was a, significant chapter that
(08:40):
made people want to read this book.
What was
it about that first chapter that
was so significant to thepeople wanting to read this?
Well, as you may know I was appointed
to the Salem CustomHouse , it's a political
appointment.
And so, I had
Some weighty
political friends who were able to get
me this
(09:00):
fairly lucrative job as
surveyor of the Salem Custom House.
And it was certainly a,
A lucrative job, but verydamaging to my creativity.
I did not write at all duringmy whole stay in that position.
However.
Three years later, when the administration
(09:23):
changed and the Democratswere voted out of office
and Zachary Taylor, a, Whig,
was voted into the presidency I
very
quickly lost that job, lost that
political appointment, and so,
In what you might call fit of,
Disgruntledness.
(09:44):
I wrote this rather
sarcastic
sketch lampooning many of the custom
house officers who wereall very well known.
Politicians and officers to allof the citizens of Salem.
And it was rather a scandalous treatmentof these men who were generally revered.
(10:09):
Of course, by all
counts, it
was satire.
But I think a great many peoplePeople in Salem wanted to read
this rather scandalous account of theseweighty citizens that everyone knew.
And so it was actually a remarkable saleof the, in the first 10 days, we sold
(10:33):
2, 500 copies of the Scarlet letter.
And it has been suggested that thosesales were, as you say, in large part
due to the the introductionthe custom house sketch.
You had said
a minute ago that,
When you were working
at the customs
house, that it wasdamaging to your writing.
(10:56):
And
As I've studied your
life, It appears that
there were lots
of different times where
you were trying to write or wanted to
write, maybe wanted todo more writing than
you were
doing, but something got in the way.
And then there is this periodafter you get married To your wife,
(11:19):
, Sophia, where it seemed like right after
that, or right about that
time you put out
Some very important works, which
included the ScarletLetter and the Seven Gables
Is that true?
Is
that the time, where you
did your best writing?
There was a very
prolific period of time rightafter my marriage to Sophia.
(11:40):
Well, it wasn't directly after the
marriage.
We lived for three years in Concord.
In a house that we
rented from Ralph Waldo Emerson's step
grandfather.
It's all rather incestuous in
Concord.
But there there was this verygrand house called the Old Manse
(12:01):
that was
owned by the Emerson family and they
were kind
enough to rent it to usfor a hundred dollars.
So we were able to live
A very blissful first threeyears of our marriage at the
old man's in Concord and Sophia.
(12:21):
painted and I wrote and sometimessold apples in town in order to,
Earn A few extra pennies.
It was
during the stretch right afterthe Custom House Sophia was my
savior , in many moments of my life.
But that time in particular,when I lost my position at the
(12:44):
custom house and we had three
children at the time, andI did not know how we were
going to move forward.
And as
it turns out Sophia opened adrawer and pulled out a tremendous
nest egg that she had secretly
put away.
For the three years that I hadworked at the Custom House and
(13:08):
had created a sizable amount
indeed that allowed me thenfor the next many months
To simply stay at home and write.
And it was, that was the beginning of that
prolific stretch of which you speak.
The Scarlet Letter wasfinished within that
same year then,
(13:30):
as you say The scandalous nature ofthe Custom House sketch was enough to
decide that we might want to move
out of Salem for a little while.
So we moved to Lenox, Massachusetts,
where I wrote my next romance, whichwas The House of the Seven Gables.
And . During that
(13:50):
same time, I also wrote my firstchildren's book, which was called a wonder
book for girls and boys, which was are imagining of many of the Greek myths
of mythology.
, And I also began.
Writing my third romance, which wasthe Blithedale Romance, of which I
spoke earlier, based on Brook Farm.
(14:12):
So, you're quite right.
There was between 1850 and 1852 avery productive time for me, indeed.
It's a
shame that you didn'thave that thousand dollars
back from Brooke farm,
because that would have.
That would have bought you10 years rent in that house.
You could have just
That's A very good point.
A very good
point, indeed.
(14:32):
So,
The character Hester'schild in is her name Pearl?
Is that right?
In the Scarlet
Yes.
seems
like a very important
character.
But I'm not sure why.
I think you may be referring to
what many writers have intimatedabout the character of Pearl.
She is a very
(14:54):
kind of strange mercurial
child who one moment issort of angelic and the next
moment is very
mischievous and says
inappropriate
things in public in thePuritan society and, is unruly
And then the next moment, very loving and,
She's just a very impish, mercurial
(15:15):
child and friends and otherwriters have speculated that
Pearl was likely based upon my own
first child our daughter
Una who Is very similar in
in character.
and nature.
Is that the truth?
Ambiguity.
(15:36):
You know, I asked thatquestion knowing that there
was no way that you
were going to answer.
but it's probably better that you don't.
So
what about, is it TheHouse of Seven Gables?
Is that what it's
called?
House of the Seven Gables.
. I've been to that
house.
You never lived in that house.
You didn't own that
house.
Correct.
No, it was owned by the
family of
(15:57):
my second cousin, Susanna Ingersoll.
But , I visited her oftenover the years, growing up.
And Susanna used to lead methrough the house and point
out the changes in architecturethrough the history of the house.
And this fascinated me.
At the time that I
(16:17):
visited her and that shelived there, there were
only three gables.
Left on the house.
It had been,
renovated
From the time that
it was originally built.
And it only had three gables at the timethat we actually visited, but she brought
me up to the Garrett, up to the attic and
showed me where the,
(16:37):
original beams
that had supported all sevenof the original gables.
And this idea of
a house.
that had So many of
these
Grand gables captured my
attention.
And I started
to mull over how that
might play into a narrative.
Is this how your, thewriting comes to you?
Because looking at a couple of
(16:58):
stories.
Okay.
So the scarlet letter, you explainedyour family's history, which by the
way, and I forgot to ask you about this.
that true that that's why you
Added a
letter to your name, get away from
your family
Much has been made of this
speculation that before my
adulthood our family's name was spelled
(17:22):
H A T H
O R N E.
So,
it looks like it might havebeen pronounced Haythorn
or Hathorn.
But that,
Somehow when I came of
age I added a
W
to the family name inorder to distance myself
from the guilt and shame I felt
(17:43):
over my my association with my ancestors.
Now, I'd like to
clarify that the name hasalways been pronounced
Hawthorne.
So, it only looked in
writing as if it might
have been
Hathorne or Hathorne, but it'salways been pronounced Hawthorne.
(18:06):
So, there are three different
explanations
for why I might've changed
that
spelling.
The first, as you say, is that
Guilt
association with my ancestors.
the second is that
It's possible that Icould simply have wanted
(18:27):
to have it read the way it
sounds, the way that
it's
actually pronounced.
the third explanationis that there has been,
During this.
last couple of decades,a new fashion to change
the family name back to the originalEnglish spelling the family name,
(18:52):
which was initially with a W.
So
all three of those are completely
logical.
reasons that could be offered.
As a
storyteller the ancestor story Is
much
more fun.
So again, I will leave it to my readersto decide what my motivations were.
(19:12):
So the question
I actually was asking, soyou look at the Scarlet
letter,
and the inspiration comesfrom your family history.
You go to the story mosses
from an old manse.
Okay.
And there was the
house
that you lived in
I think that was called Old Mance,and then you look at the house of
the seven gables and the history of
that
And you mentioned the Blythdalestory and that had to do with
(19:38):
the commune that you were at.
It seems clear that you'rejust walking around and
noticing things or payingattention to what's going on in
the world.
And then you get inspiredand your imagination
creates some fantastic
story, which leads me to the
question.
How did
your friend
Melville,
herman Melville, I think you're referring.
Melville start writing astory about a giant fish.
(20:00):
So where did that come from?
Your
friend, you were friends with him, weren't
you?
I was, indeed.
I lived in Lenox, when our family livedup in Lenox in the old red farmhouse,
Melville lived about five miles away inHis homestead that he called Arrowhead.
It was actually in Pittsfield.
And we happened to meet quite by chance,
(20:22):
On a picnic with some mutualfriends in the Berkshires.
And we met and found a veryimmediate kinship and connection.
Our.
Writing styles were very similar.
Our philosophies were nearly identical.
And the way that we expressedourselves, although Melville is much
(20:45):
more effusive and overt I'm muchmore reserved . But certainly the way
that we express ourselves one might.
Kindly call it eloquenceis very similar as well.
And so we formed a rather immediate and Imight say intense friendship very quickly.
(21:07):
This was in 1850, 51.
And you were asking about howhe was writing a story , about
the whale, the white whale,
I certainly can't speak for Melville
in terms of how he initially came up with
his
his tale.
, I mean, he had a,
He had a history himselfof working on whale ships,
(21:27):
Do you find that , as you aregoing throughout the world that you
just find inspiration likethat from everything though?
Well, certainly, a writergenerally, if anything strikes his
fancy, will write it downfor future use somehow.
Okay.
me a little bit more about
Herman
Melville and
(21:48):
your relationship with him, because
Some think that
relationship was more than just friendly.
Okay.
Well, I think that
people will gossip and theywill say what they will say.
Mr.
Melville was a dear friend
continues to be we did,
We have sort of
separation.
, after the intensity of the initialbond that we discovered in Lennox.
(22:13):
It , Cooled in the sense that weboth went on to other pursuits., I
would not want to say anything that,
Disrespects
Mr.
Melville.
So I will
be mum on whatever suggestions
that other people may be
making about our relationshipthat may be anything more than a A
(22:35):
close friendship and
, Kindred of spirit.
I will say that Mr.
Melville
was deeply kind
In dedicating his
masterwork to me.
Moby Dick was
was dedicated,
To me and Melville
actually handed me thevery first printed copy.
(22:56):
of the book.
And I promptly went hometo the little red cottage
And read it
, in a single
sitting.
So I was very
touched by his dedication.
And I found the
book to have some technical problems, butthe spirit behind it was mighty indeed.
(23:16):
And it was certainly his very best work.
You have the first copy
of Moby Dick and It is
dedicated to you at the front of
it,
Indeed.
You may want to pass that through your
family generations.
Um, Cause there's a
lot of people down the road
that would be very happy if you did that.
(23:37):
Let's talk about
the House of Seven Gables.
Tell me a little bit about that story.
Where did that come from?
The first stirrings of the ideawere touring the house more than
once with Susanna, my second cousin.
Again, It is a tale about,
Injustice hypocrisy andit begins during the
(24:00):
Salem witch trials.
It's a tale about A man whocovets another man's land.
The
man who Is coveting the land.
It happens
to be a very powerful magistrateduring the Salem witch trials,
and he, accuses the landowner ofwitchcraft in order to see him hanged
(24:22):
and effectively steal his land.
He is successful in this.
And upon the gallows, thelandowner, Matthew Moll
pronounces a curse on the judge.
And,
His entire
line, all of his descendants.
And he says, If you take my life,God will give you blood to drink.
(24:45):
And all of your descendants.
And of course he goesthrough with the execution.
And the judge, whose familyname is Pynchon this magistrate,
Judge Pynchon decides to build agrand family mansion on this very
square of earth that he has stolen
From this farmer.
(25:06):
So he builds this enormous mansion.
with seven gables, a very
ornate family mansion.
And
on the day that it is to beconsecrated, he throws a huge party
and invites the entire town
, to witness the consecration andto celebrate the opening of the
(25:27):
house.
Of course when The hourcomes and the party happens.
The judge is nowhere to be found.
And eventually they find him in his study
having choked
on his own blood.
This sets in motion a generationalcurse that proves true.
Generation after generation paythe price of this injustice
(25:50):
done to this farmer until.
There, there comes a time in the finalgeneration where the wrong is righted.
And so it's a story aboutredemption and justice and penance.
this whole backdrop
of
(26:10):
the,
The ownership of the land
and the dispute of that, did somethinglike that happen in your life or in
your
family's
life?
Nothing specific comes to mind.
It was just a, an invention ofone of any different kind of
injustices that might've been done.
, Nobody
makes it on their own.
Who are
the people that
(26:30):
are most responsible
for your success other than you?
comes immediately to mind.
She has been my savior
throughout my life.
Certainly I was
a lost soul until I found her.
And
Meeting her changed theentire direction of my life.
(26:51):
I was a painfully shy young man,
very
reclusive, and
Sophia was as well.
In fact, up until,
We met from the
age of 13 or
so,
she suffered from verydebilitating headaches.
She was called an invalid by herfamily and spent most of her time in
(27:11):
her room as did I for all those years.
And so when we met, I think there was an
immediate bond and recognition of
that kinship of our
souls in one another.
It was very passionateand it has never waned.
Since then and almost immediatelyI found my way , we had a blissful
(27:36):
first three years of marriage in theold man's and Concord returning to
Salem we had a very solid stretchwhile I worked at the Salem Custom
House and we began raising our children.
And then with the enormous success ofthe Scarlet Letter and the House of
the Seven Gables it sort of cementedmy ability continue to write.
(28:01):
And Sophia was was instrumental insaving all of that money so that I
could continue to writeand she has just been.
Well, I think I once wrotethat she was my sole companion
and , that's all thecompanionship that I needed.
(28:21):
, It sounds
like she needed you as much as youneeded her, because I heard that
, that these migraines,
they just
disappeared,
, for no reason, well, for some
reason, once you, the two ofyou came together, is that
true?
it is true
The headache as we call it miraculouslyfaded and by the time we were actually
married, they were almost entirely gone.
(28:44):
So I, I think that we found something inone another that whatever psychological
Causes that might have inhibited bothof our lives to that point were sort
of resolved in, in finding one another.
This could be one of yournew titles, so there's,
Writer and surveyor and
(29:04):
custom officer and medicine
I'll leave medicine.
to the doctors.
Thank you.
Did you write somethingcalled the celestial
railroad?
The Celestial railroad?
I did indeed.
Yes.
Well,
Again, this is just another
one of those things.
Well, how are you gettinginvolved in the railroads?
It wasn't it wasn't an actual
railroad.
Of
course the story you're referring tois actually a satire on a very well
(29:28):
known book by John Bunyan, calledThe Pilgrim's Progress and most uh,
New Englanders are very aware of this
story.
It was second in popularity only
to the Bible.
And it's a story about,
A pilgrim who takes this long odyssey
through forests and mountains and valleysand he is seeking the kingdom of heaven
(29:53):
or what he calls the Celestial City.
And he's tempted all along the wayby sundry, scurrilous characters
to depart from his path and to
to be tempted away from his faith.
It was a very popular
book.
Obviously it's a parablefor the journey of faith.
(30:14):
Well, I thought I might usePilgrim's Progress and , write
a bit of a satire on it.
And so it's a very similar pilgrimage butit's made easier by the fact that instead
of doing this long, arduous hike on foot.
You can just hop on the railroad
And get
to your destination.
So,
(30:35):
I see.
Do you have a favorite piece of
work that you've written?
I suppose there are tales that I haveinvested more of myself into than others.
I think it, entirely dependsupon the mood I'm in at the time.
If I'm in a somber mood,
, some of the more gloomy romances orsome of the short stories that are,
(30:58):
have a little more cynicism to them.
I do enjoy revisiting some of themore humorous sketches as well.
So, It's it's a difficult question to
answer.
It's like saying
which one of your children is your
favorite?
When you talk about writing humor, whatwas something humorous that you wrote?
I'm not, I'm actually notfamiliar with any of your
Humorous
work.
(31:18):
Well, certainly thestory you just mentioned.
For instance it's a satire.
And so, it's a parody of a rather seriousbook and so I think that anyone who is
familiar with Pilgrim's Progress will,
Get a great deal of amusement outof reading the Celestial Railroad.
(31:41):
There's a story I wrote called Mrs.
Bullfrog about a man who hasbeen a bachelor for years and
he doesn't want to get marrieduntil he finds the perfect woman.
And he finally finds this angeliccreature who has glossy curls in
her hair and beautiful white teeth.
teeth and is the most angelicpersonality he's ever met.
(32:04):
And he knows her for
all of two weeks or so,and he decides to marry
her.
And on the stage coach.
Heading towards their honeymoon.
The stage coach hits a bump inthe road and is overturned and as
they're all getting out of thecoach and collecting themselves Mr.
Bullfrog says all of a sudden myangelic wife reappeared and
(32:28):
there was an ogre there.
Inexplicably.
And there was a curly wig onthe ground and there was a set
of white dentures on the sand.
And, And this this ogre who I'd never seenbefore was attacking the coach driver.
And I had to help himget the coach uprighted.
And as soon as I did, all of asudden the ogre was gone and my
(32:51):
beautiful angelic wife reappeared.
And so yes I've written a great deal ofhumorous tales several of them in twice
told tales and mosses from an old man's
it never ceases to amaze me that I'mknown largely as a novelist now when
a great deal of my early career wasspent in writing dozens and dozens
(33:14):
of short stories of all different
ilks and some of those humorous
satirical
sketches are among
my favorites.
, you have written quite a few of those shorter stories
Compared to the longer novels.
Is there one that youprefer over the other?
As a writer,
You are inspired
to, write
either long form or short form.
(33:36):
Certainly if the reading public desiresa longer form and this is what is
commercially going to keepyou going as a writer.
And this is where you've achieved some.
more notable
success than, , certainly the commercial
element plays
into the
projects that you
take on.
I see.
(33:56):
, if you're not going to sell
some books, you can't be a
writer.
So that's correct.
In fact, the fourth romancethat I wrote, the one I
wrote in Europe wascalled the, marble fawn.
I was actually
encouraged to write a story that would be,long enough to fill two or three volumes.
And I was criticized heavily for thisbecause much of what we would call the.
(34:23):
extraneous detail that I put init , lengthy descriptions of
buildings or locales in order tomake the story longer because I was
encouraged to do so, thinking that itmight be more commercially lucrative.
And then of course, whenI acquiesced and did it,
(34:43):
I was criticized for,
for,
padding
my novel
It's just more proof thatpeople don't actually know
what
they want.
and the publishers think They know.
what
they want and they think They
think they
know
what the public wants.
They don't know.
They're
just guessing like
everybody else.
always the case.
I've spent quite a bit of timein Europe and I know you spent
(35:03):
some time, I think in Rome.
I feel like when I am in Italy,that all I want to do is write
because everything inspires me.
Did you have an
experience like that?
Well, that's where wrote thethe majority of the marble faun.
And it was all based onexperiences in Rome and Florence.
And,
(35:24):
When you compare it to the
foggy damp climate of
England or Liverpool or even ofnew England the Sunny, light,
joyous of the place is in allof Italy is deeply inspiring.
And of course, all ofthe art that's around us.
(35:45):
I mean, my wife, Sophia, isa gifted artist and just was
in her prime.
Splendor in Rome and Florence and
we we loved it.
We really did.
It did our family good.
We were tourists
for three years and
it brought our
family closer together.
It was A joyous
(36:06):
time.
Well,
is completely going a different
direction.
A while ago, I had one of theseconversations with a person that
I was absolutely fascinated with.
And I couldn't even believethat I was able to, and It was
right before he was executed.
And his name was John Brown.
I understand that you havesome feelings about John Brown.
(36:28):
Mr.
Thoreau would never forgiveme for sharing those.
But I do not ascribe to Emersonand Thoreau's assessment
that it was a death
as venerable as the cross.
, I believe that the man was basically a
fanatic.
.There were many abolitionists who believe very strongly in their cause,
(36:51):
but did not resort to the sortof violence that John Brown did.
And
so I, I do not agree that
he was a
martyr
of any kind.
He definitely took theviolence to, to a high level.
That's
for sure.
That's true.
Although others might've
espoused it, he
was the only one that
ever carried it
(37:12):
out.
So what is the story thatyou haven't written yet?
What's the one that's in your head
that you just, you haven'tquite put it on paper yet.
Either it's a different genre or.
It's just something
that you haven't got to
yet.
Well, you know, as I said I've been I'vebeen struggling with several different
new romance novels three in particular.
(37:33):
And I just can't seem to, make headwayon, on any of them because My sadness
with what is happening in the country.
Curiously, two out of three ofthe, novels that I'm currently
working on, they take place
in the house that I wooed my
wife in, the actual house in Salem.
(37:53):
Next to the old burying groundthere where Sophia and her sisters
lived it's called the Grimshaw houseand one of the , romances that I'm
writing is called Dr.
Grimshaw's Secret, and the other is calledthe Dolliver Romance, and both of those
tales take place in that houseI'm not able to break through I
(38:16):
think , it's very interesting.
Today, as you said, is my 59th birthdayand our country's birthday, the 4th
of July for the past three days wehave been involved in one of the
bloodiest battles of this conflictit's been on a battlefield called
Gettysburg and many young men on bothsides have been slain and maimed.
(38:43):
And I just I ask myself Iunderstand the plight of slavery.
And I understand the vehemencebehind it to eradicate it.
But my question is how canone tragedy justify another?
Slavery is a tragedy.
(39:04):
But so is this war, andit is not an easy answer.
And I struggle.
I struggle with it.
I'm struggling with failing health,and my, my children are growing.
And so life is
more complex than
it used to be.
(39:24):
You've mentioned , what's happening withthe war right now and the state of the
union right now and everything beingvery challenging and dark and upsetting.
And I understand.
How your health and the problemsyou're having with your stomach
would interfere with your writing,but considering how you are the
kind of person that delves into the
nature of why people do whatthey do and explores that
(39:48):
deeply, it almost seems like the
war and the absurdity of this.
Might almost be inspiration to write
something for you becauseit is all about human
nature.
, every person would say, if youwere to ask them about, , killing
another person, is that wrong?
Every one of them, I'm going to say,yeah, I don't want to kill somebody.
And yet, , tens, thousands of
(40:09):
them dying every single day.
And it's,
, it is this.
absurdity, this
inconsistency of human nature.
It just seems like thiswould be inspiration.
Does
that make sense at all?
It does.
It does.
and, yet all I can say isthat I'm, I'm, I'm tired.
I'm tired.
and I don't know, if I could muster areflection on something that massive.
(40:37):
. It's a fine question and one toponder, but, , I just find myself
more and more tired, both physically
And
creatively.
Well, I have enjoyed this conversation.
And as far as being tired, I hope
that you find a bottle of energysomewhere and drink it because we
(40:59):
are very thankful for your work
well,
I'm certainly hoping torevive my spirits here.
, when this
sort of fatigue sets in I generallyenjoy going on some sort of a hike
up in the White Mountains of NewHampshire with my dear friend Pierce.
And we have been talking For quite sometime about about another long hike to
(41:26):
revive both of our spirits and bodies.
, Hopefully, the two of us will find atime to get back to the White Mountains.
I've written several stories abouthiking in the White Mountains.
It's a beautiful placethat I always find myself
revived.
So, I certainly hope to do that
(41:47):
sometime soon.
Thank you again for your time today.
Gosh,
I thank you, sir.
It couldn't be more clear how tiredand worn Hawthorne is as he considers
the state of our union at war.
And yet I can't help, butwonder if it was more than that.
His connection to the Salem witchtrials would have been a part
of his life since he was young.
(42:09):
As he aged and spent time aroundbrilliant writers, able to
express their views of the world.
Those dark thoughts had beeninside of him for a long time
and were looking for a way out.
And yet, instead of telling us howwe should think Hawthorne used his
gift to put the facts in front of usso that we could decide on our own.
Reaching the end of his greatestworks didn't result in the answering
(42:32):
of questions, but instead as theinspiration for us to ask them and
wonder why we all do what we do.
Why did the man wear the blackveil and never remove it?
It's a shame that his brief productiveperiods of writing didn't last
longer, especially after the warended who knows what extraordinary
writings may have been completed.
(42:53):
If he'd had time to digestthe war and how it ended.
What might he have written afterexploring the only time in American
history that might've been darker?
Then his family's legacyof the Salem witch trials.
Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that when you tell afriend about the calling history podcast.
Ghosts of overlooked historical figures.
We'll occasionally unload yourdishwasher and do your laundry.
(43:15):
I'm Tony Dean.
And until next time I'm history.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.