January 31, 2024 • 55 mins
In 1830, Richard Allen had just finished church when he received a call from the future…
In this episode, he will discuss why he picked the last name Allen after being born a slave without it. How he helped Martha Washington’s personal slave escape to freedom, and what George Washington did about it.
Start the episode now to join the conversation.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:28):
Um, Tony Dean.
And today we'll be calling historyto speak with Richard Allen.
He'll be answering our call onSunday after church in 1830.
Richard Allen started life as a slavewith no last name before his 10th
birthday, he was sold as a fieldhand before 20, he was sold again
and then separated from his family.
(00:48):
He felt trapped and saw no hope.
Then a church opened up near hisenslavement and his owner made the
unpopular decision to encourageattendance and allow him to be educated
after starting with nothing thatwas all Richard needed to completely
rewrite the history of his family.
And.
And his people, he started businesses anduse those funds to buy rental properties.
(01:11):
Despite not being a citizen, he purchaseda church and called it mother Bethel,
African Methodist, Episcopal church.
I know it's a mouthful.
Which is why everyone callsit mother Bethel or a M E.
Throughout his life.
He created a safe place for people ofcolor to worship and learn so they could
become wealthy business people like hewas, or do whatever else they wanted.
(01:32):
The building that the AME currentlyworships in is the oldest parcel of real
estate in the United States that has beencontinuously owned by African-Americans.
This conversation is with anextraordinary man who understands what
it takes to overcome impossible oddsand the importance of giving back.
Once you have ladies andgentlemen, fellow history, lovers,
(01:55):
and everyone who has foundthemselves on the business end
of George Washington's Gemini.
I give you Bishop Richard Allen.
Hello, Bishop Allen.
Is that you?
Yes, it's me.
You.
Sir, I am thrilled to be speakingwith you today, my name is Tony
Dean, and I am talking to you fromthe future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding in yourhand is called a smartphone, and it allows
(02:18):
us to speak as if we were Sitting inpews next to each other in your church.
And it also allows me to sharea record of our conversation
with people around the world.
And I was hoping that I could ask you somequestions today because your commitment
to education, to rights, to freedom,it has literally changed our world.
(02:39):
, but before I do ask any of thosequestions, I understand this
is a very strange introduction.
Can I answer any questionsthat you might have
first?
No just assure me that thisdevice has nothing to do with
witchcraft and I'll be fine.
I will absolutely assure that is the case.
There is no witchcraft this device hasnothing to do with religion in any way.
(02:59):
It's just an advanced piece of technology.
Nothing to do with any of that.
Wow.
Interesting.
Interesting.
All right.
Well, let's let's proceed.
Good.
Well, , you have accomplished somuch and you've helped so many.
And the truth is, it's hard toimagine that this was even possible
considering what you started with.
Because people, when they accomplish bigthings in life, they'll say, Oh, I was
(03:22):
broke and things were hard and all that.
And then, you know, I wenton to do a lot of things.
Not only , did you not have any money,but it's my understanding that you didn't
even have your full name when you started.
Is
that correct?
Yes.
I was actually born withthe name Negro Richard.
That's what I heard.
Not a good thing to beknown as Negro Richard.
(03:47):
So one of the first things Idid when I got my freedom was
change my name to Richard.
Allen.
And that's a little bit of aninteresting story if you'd like to hear.
Yes, please.
My first owner was a gentleman bythe name of Benjamin Shue, Chief
Justice of Pennsylvania Supreme Court.
And he had a friend by the nameof William Allen, who would
(04:11):
also serve as Chief Justice.
In fact, he also would serveas Mayor of Philadelphia.
And he was so rich, hestarted his own city.
Did you ever hear of aplace called Allentown?
Now you're rich when you start your own
city.
That was his city?
Yes, Allentown.
(04:33):
So after he died, I decided I thinkI'd like to be known as Richard Allen.
That's how the name came about.
, did you choose that namebecause you thought maybe you'd
be rich one day?
Well, I respected the things thathe was able to accomplish, and I
hoped that I could also do the same.
(04:55):
You have to imagine that slavery isprobably not going to go on forever.
I mean, there are probablyalready issues with it right now.
But you can imagine that probablydoesn't go on forever and maybe it
even becomes illegal at some point.
And to consider that the chiefjustice at that time owned you,
there is a certain irony in that,assuming that it becomes illegal.
(05:17):
Would
you agree?
I would absolutely agree with that.
However from what I can tell, the FoundingFathers of this country walked very
much in the footsteps of the English,of the British, and they, the British,
made a lot of wealth from slavery.
So in a sense, when the Founding Fatherscame here, They had the same ideology.
(05:45):
They knew that there was a lot oflabor to be done in this country, and
they thought that they would addressthis as the British did with slavery.
So, yes, and we're justconsidered to be property.
And.
Ironically The idea of freedom withregards to England blinded them
(06:11):
to the idea of creating a countrywhere everyone could be free.
Because we were really, as enslavedpeople, just considered to be property
to be bought and sold at a whim.
When you look back at that, I mean,from where you stand, it's absurd.
(06:31):
But you can even imagine, where Istand, and I'm just gonna tell you,
slavery is not illegal anymore.
In fact, there's been ablack president in our time.
Like, the world is tot Yeah, I know,I knew you'd be surprised by that.
Wow.
And I know that sound.
I know that sounds impossible,but the thing is, had people like
you not stepped up and said, look,we're people, we deserve rights,
(06:52):
we would have never gotten there.
But It is it's such a thing tolook at the Founding Fathers and
then saying, we need our freedomwhile we are enslaving this people.
It just makes no sense.
You just have to assume that therewas a percentage of them that
thought, okay, this is crazy.
This is what we have todo, but it's just crazy.
(07:13):
I mean, they had to feel that
way.
Yeah I would agree to that.
And in addition to that,People change over time.
Now, I had personal experiencewith a gentleman by the
name of George Washington.
George Washington comes to Pennsylvania,he bypasses the Pennsylvania
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laws, brings slaves with him.
However, as his life progressed, youcould see that his attitude towards race,
slavery, and equality began to change.
Would it surprise you to hear that when Isolicited funds for African Church, George
(07:54):
Washington is among the contributors.
In addition to that, when he died in 1799,I delivered a eulogy for him in my church,
and the reason was to acknowledge and topraise his decision to free his slaves
(08:17):
upon his death and his wife's death.
So people change, and I knew a number ofwhite people in Philadelphia that were
even Ben Franklin, who was originallya slave owner, eventually becomes
president of the Pennsylvania Society.
(08:42):
So I saw a change, however, the amountof inertia to be overcome was a lot.
And so, as you mentioned slaveryexists in my time, and I actually
don't see an end of it in the horizon.
I did see in 1808.
(09:04):
How slavery importation andexploitation was, illegal.
However, I didn't really see the same zealend slavery altogether in the country.
I didn't know all of thisthat George Washington donated
money towards your cause.
(09:25):
That, that's amazing.
And . There was one question that I wasgoing to ask you and I think you just
answered it as I look at your life andthe tolerance that you show people that,
later throughout the years would beseen as ignorant and backward thinking.
When I look at this tolerance, I kindof wonder, where does that come from?
(09:46):
I mean, here you are, a young kid,you're a slave, treated like property
and then pieces of your family are soldapart, . And here you are, despite all
of that, being tolerant, and I wonderif that's what you're looking for.
You're just waiting for thatmoment for people to change because
you understand that they can.
Well,
That's my hope that all peoplewill come to the conclusion
(10:10):
that all men are created equal.
However, I have a responsibilityas a Christian to be a light in the
world, to be the salt of the earth,to stand up for what is right and
have love in my heart for everyone.
(10:31):
Forgiveness in my heart.
For everyone and acknowledgethat there is a God.
He had a son, Jesus Christ, who diedfor our sins and that those that have
faith in him can depend on him inthis life and in the life to come.
(10:53):
We should all be so lucky tohave . Somebody like you around us.
that light around us You hadmentioned Ben Franklin and you'd
mentioned George Washington.
Did you actually meet either of them?
Yes In fact for a while.
I worked as a chimney sweep athis residence at 6th and Market
for George Washington or Ben Franklin?
(11:14):
, George Washington.
George Washington lived at 6th and Market.
Oh.
And because, chimney fires arebig issues here in this city.
One of the ways I made money wasto work as a chimney sweep, even
though I am also a minister at St.
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George's Methodist Church for a time,because they only gave you expenses.
If you really want to makea living, you have to work.
And that's a part of the work I did.
And in addition to that, the enslavedpeople that George Washington had at his
residence, you could see them from timeto time walking around Philadelphia.
(12:00):
And I got to meet the personal enslavedservant of Martha Washington, Oney Judge.
And in fact, I was among thoseAfrican Americans that assisted her.
escape from the President's house.
Okay, alright.
We're gonna unpack this for a second.
(12:21):
. This is a lot.
Alright, first of all.
So you're a chimney sweep in George
Washington's house.
Yes I have a business.
I did it as a, as an individual, butthen I expanded it to a business to
be a chimney sweep to earn money.
Okay.
Now, when you say that you wouldsee in Philadelphia, you would see
(12:41):
George Washington's slaves wanderingaround Philadelphia was that normal
for a slave?
Well, let me put it to, , letme put it to you this way.
I'm referring.
Primarily to only judge MarthaWashington's personal enslaved servant
because she would sometimes have free timeand she would sometimes have to come out
(13:08):
of the president's house to run errands.
And when she did that, she wouldmeet other free Africans like myself.
who had businesses, whomade their own decision.
So I got to personally know her.
And in fact, I had also started ashoemaking business and there did
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come a time where Oney asked GeorgeWashington for some money for some shoes.
And a lot of the Africans came to me.
To buy shoes.
In fact, in my home, I hadapprentices that I was helping
to learn the trade as well.
So, okay.
Back to Martha Washington and Oni judge.
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You helped her escape, Washington's place.
Is that correct?
Yes.
The free Africans, I'm goingto say we had met with.
Only contacted us because she's veryconcerned, because Martha Washington
plan give her away as a wedding presentto her granddaughter in Virginia.
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And Ona didn't want anything to dowith that because that Granddaughter
had a reputation of being harsh andcruel and she approached us for help.
And we began by just sort ofgradually moving out some of
the property that she had there.
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And , when she did escape on a springnight in 1796, we hid her until she
could get a ship that was headednorth to Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
So we agreed to work togetherto help her to escape.
Were there any consequences from
Washington?
Well, it's interesting you shouldsay that, because of course Martha
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Washington is insisted That GeorgeWashington placed an ad in the newspaper
that was being published by BrianFranklin at the time, because they
would have slave catcher ads in there.
But George Washington doesn'twant that, because it's bad
publicity, because there's manyabolitionists here in Philadelphia.
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, and they actually think thatmaybe somebody kidnapped her.
Because , in their minds, they hada hard time imagining that anybody.
Would leave because she was beingtreated better than many of the
slaves that were in this country.
So George Washington does agree toget his nephew to go and find her.
(15:47):
And the nephew found her andasked her, why did you run away?
Did someone make you?
And Oney said, no, I leftbecause I wanted my freedom.
Now the nephew has to come back and tellGeorge Washington, this is not sitting
well with him and Martha, ultimately.
And he does send out slavecatchers to try and catch her.
(16:12):
But the people in Portsmouth,New Hampshire, hid her.
And eventually, she was able
What a story.
I didn't know any of that.
And so therein lies the beginningof the story of later in your life.
You operated a station onthe Underground Railroad for
decades.
Yes.
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One of the first things that wedid was, of course, start a school.
But in addition to that, werealized that we needed to do
our part to help escape slaves.
Freedom by housing them and myhouse that it was not uncommon
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that there were maybe two or threerunaways in my home that I hid.
And in addition to that,we use the church as well.
Did you ever have any runins with the law because of
this?
Not because of.
That, however, I did have run inswith the law for another reason.
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Now, what happened with theFugitive Slave Act of 1793?
Basically, it removed Pennsylvaniato be a place of safety for
runaway enslaved people.
And there were slave catchers.
And then there were also thesepeople called slave speculators.
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A slave speculator?
Doesn't know for sure that you'rean escaped slave, but they come to
Philadelphia, they see all thesefree walking around, and they
say, You are an escaped slave.
You look kind of slavey
to me.
But one of these slain speculatorswent down to the alderman's office,
(17:55):
swore out a false oath against me thatsaid I was a recently escaped slave.
Enslaved person.
Wow.
Well, the constable actuallycame to my home to arrest me.
However, he's ashamed to lookme in the eye because I'm a
well known figure in this city.
So he doesn't arrest me, but he justtells me, go down to the Alderman's
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office and straighten this out.
And that's exactly what I did.
However, I did discuss this matterwith a white friend that I had
by the name of Isaac Hopper.
And he suggested and encouraged me tofile a civil suit against the one who
had taken out a false oath against me.
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And you know what?
I went to court, and I actually won.
$800 judgment . And the slave catcher, theslave speculator, he doesn't have $800.
So guess what happens to youwhen you cannot pay your debts?
You go to debtor's prison.
And you know what?
I let him stay there for aboutthree months just to teach him a
(19:02):
lesson before I drop the charge
about as passive aggressiveas you can possibly be.
You know what I mean?
Well, I just wanted to teach him a lessonbecause I wondered what would happen if
he did this to another African in the citythat maybe wasn't as well known as I was.
Gosh, that is incredible.
So I wanted to make sure helearned a hard lesson because
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Detters Prison is a horrible place.
But why is that?
Well, it's not a place whereyou're going to get good food.
It's not a place where they're goingto make you to be very comfortable.
So, I know that there were even somepeople in the city that were hurt by
how horrible it was in debtors prisonand were trying to make some reform.
(19:45):
But you know, a lot of peopleended up in debtors prison.
Do you know that Robert Morris?
You ever heard of Robert Morris?
No.
Who is he?
Robert Morris is the the superintendentof finances during the Revolution.
. And he was EXTREMELY wealthy.
Now, during the time of the Revolution,he's helping to raise funds, and
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he's contributing a lot of his money.
And he's getting his friendsto contribute as well.
And he actually guarantees hisfriends that they'll be paid back.
But very unfortunately, thegovernment is having a hard time
paying back the loans they receive.
And because of that, Robert Morrisactually ends up in debtors prison.
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I believe he was therefor about three years.
Even though he was one of thewealthiest men in this country.
He had so many debts he couldn't payand he had made some bad investments
and also he was involved in slavetrade as well that didn't work out
he just leverages himself too far.
Jeez.
So, when you were talking about being achimney sweep and you had your shoe store,
(20:51):
it sounds like you are very industrious.
, do you make a significant
amount of money?
Well, I can tell you this.
I made enough money that most of themoney that it took to buy the first
site of Mother Bethel came out of mypocket, and I had a lot of difficulty.
(21:11):
With the Methodist organizationhere because I signed letters of
incorporation in 1796 and theyjust wanted to dominate and control
everything that happened in our church.
So two thirds of the church membershippassed something called the African
supplement when we said, no, we're goingto retain ownership of the property.
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and operations of our church.
The Methodist didn't like that.
And actually we had no solid legal basisto change the letters of incorporation.
So what they did was they put the buildingup for public auction in the year 1815.
However, I had enough money to go.
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and buy the church back off of auction.
It cost me 10, 125.
, that's a lot of money at the time.
Oh yes, I was making afair amount of money.
I had a home in the city, andI had a country home as well.
you're talking about buying property,. It's my understanding that this is
something that, that you preached toyour congregation that for people
(22:22):
to build wealth or just the generalimportance of owning property, do you
have some strong feelings about that then?
Yes, extremely.
Extremely.
, yes, we're deniedcitizenship in this country.
Yes, you're free.
But you are not a citizen here.
You have no voting right.
However, I believe we should do whateverit is that God helps us to do to prosper.
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And nothing stops us fromworking, saving money, and doing
business, even owning real estate.
, over the course of my life, I was ableto purchase and own 10 properties.
And it's actually my understandingthat Bethel Church is the property
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that was the oldest to be owned.
By Africans in this country,
So how many propertiesdo you own right now?
Is it the church andothers or just the church?
It's the church, my two homes,and other rental properties
now, I did have other businesseslike dry goods, I had some dry goods
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stores, but as the years went on, Istarted to focus more just on property.
Getting income from property from rental.
That's magnificent.
I mean, it's so it's just hardto even imagine you can't vote.
, you don't have citizenship andyet here you go starting all these
businesses and owning property.
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It's no wonder thatyou've been successful.
So let's go back a little bit firstquestion that I asked you, I had
said that, you've accomplishedso much and I think we've drawn
a decent picture financially ofhow much you've accomplished.
But let's talk about,well, life as a slave.
So you start out as Negro Richard.
And you are a slave at seven years old.
(24:18):
Is that right?
Well, I'm born a slave.
I'm born a slave.
The first owner is Benjamin Shue.
When I'm seven years old, he sold mywhole family to a plantation owner.
In Delaware, by thename of Stokely Sturgis.
Stokely Sturgis was not a cruel man.
(24:40):
He tried to be like, we arehis children, he is our father.
However, by the time I'm a teenager,I'm extremely Depressed because
I realize that I have no future.
I'm going to work from sunup to sundown.
Somebody else is going to getthe benefits, but it's right
(25:01):
around that time that someMethodists who were anti slavery.
And we're looking to see what they did tohelp to spread the gospel to Africans and
also educate Africans started a church anda school close to where I was enslaved.
(25:25):
And I to go to those churchservices and to the school as well.
Now, going to church, this is whereI started to hear the gospel message
that helped me to have a differentperspective on the life that I was living.
(25:46):
Rather than to just see myself as a slavewith no future uh, I began Because of
the gospel preaching to see myself as achild of God and that I needed to live my
life to please God and to accept Christas my Savior and that I was taught that
(26:12):
Christ came to set the captives free.
And Christ encouraged everyone who wasfeeling oppressed and heavy laden from
the things of this world that theyshould come to Him and He would give
them peace and He would give them rest.
And the message that I heard, thatI accepted with my whole heart, that
(26:37):
I should seek the Kingdom of God.
Which was a greater kingdomthan the kingdom of this world.
And that I should seek the righteousness,the right living that Christ offers
through His His resurrection.
And that if I focused , myattention on those things, my
(26:59):
life would be totally changed.
And in fact, from the time thatI accepted that message, I had
a whole new perspective on life.
I no longer saw myself assomeone who was trapped.
In the kingdoms of this world, but thatI was a child of God that was accepted
(27:21):
in the kingdom of God and my life bearswitness that the faith that I had in that
came to pass because I was able to get myfreedom and I was able to be a preacher.
And I was able to eventually become abishop of an African church denomination.
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Did this all come at one time?
Did you hear a sermon that made you feelall of this, that you were a child of God?
Was it several momentsthat build on one another?
What did that look like?
I would call it as hearing thatmessage and sort of accepting
it, but not in my heart.
(28:03):
I felt that I actually I was a wickedperson, I lied, I did a lot of wrong
things as a slave and I accepted it, butat some point I doubted that it was real.
Until one night, out of desperation, Ifell down on my knees and I cried out to
(28:27):
him with all my heart and immediately Ifelt freedom like I had never had before.
I felt so free.
That I started holding prayer meetingsin my owner's kitchen, and my owner,
who was not a believer, became
a believer.
(28:47):
Stokely Sturgis?
Yeah.
Yes, he was not a believer.
In fact, I suggested to him that heshould invite preachers to come to the
plantation so that he could hear directlyfrom those preachers the Gospel message.
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And he agreed.
And I found a preacher who came to him.
Now, that particular preacher had been aformer slave owner, but now he realized
it was evil, he freed his slaves, andhis ministry was actually to go to
plantation owners and to confront themthat they needed to free their slaves.
(29:30):
And that's exactly what happened.
He came, and he confronted my owner,and he eventually agreed to find
a way for me to get my freedom.
He allowed me to execute an agreementwith him when I was 20 years old.
And the agreement was that over the courseof 5 years, I should give him 400 a year.
(30:01):
And this was a legaldocument that was prepared.
However, I was able to do that inthree and a half years because I
did whatever extra work I couldfind so that I could buy my freedom.
And
so as a slave, you worked extra, founda way to make extra money and then
paid your owner Stokely Sturgis 2, 000.
(30:26):
And that's how you got your freedom.
That's exactly right.
. I found work as a woodcutter a bricklayer.
I even, for a time, delivered saltfor the Patriot Army from Rehoboth
Beach, Delaware to Valley Forge.
To Valley Forge.
Wow.
I think that the people that will hearWhat we're talking about right now,
(30:48):
if they were to go and search how much2, 000 would be in our time, I think
they would be absolutely stunned athow much money that is in your time.
Because, I mean, in your time,what could you buy for 2, 000?
Could you buy a house for 2, 000?
As I mentioned, I bought a wholechurch property for 10, 000.
So If you're talking about a smaller home,yes, maybe you can do that for 2, 000.
(31:16):
Now the price for me washigher because I had education.
If you are a slave with education,you are worth a lot more than a
slave that does not have education.
For others who don't have education,maybe the price for their freedom
(31:37):
would be half or even less than that.
, I want to talk about your education,but there's a couple things I
want to go back on for a minute.
Stokely Sturgis, I love this guy'sname Stokely Sturgis, Is it normal
for an owner of slaves in yourtime to encourage their people to
(32:00):
go to church and to get educated?
Because that hasn't been my experience
so far.
Absolutely not.
That's where I believe thatGod had a hand in this somehow,
because it is really extremelyunusual for a slave owner to want.
(32:22):
They're slave to be taught the scripturesand to be taught to read and write.
In fact, let me tell you this.
Sturge's neighbors beganlaughing at him and warning him.
Wow, look at what you're doing.
You're going to let your slaves goto church and let them get education?
(32:44):
They will absolutely ruin your business.
And I can tell you, we knewthat this was happening.
So there were actually times when we weresupposed to go to church, or we were
supposed to go to school, we didn't go.
(33:04):
In fact, he would come to us and say,Hey, you're supposed to be in church.
You're supposed to be in schooland we would tell him, no, we are
not going because our work progressis not what it should be to keep
us from being behind in our work.
So there were times where we willwork all night just to make sure no
(33:29):
one could point a finger at educationor getting faith to be a bad thing.
Oh,
I see.
So what you're, okay, I wastrying to keep up with you there.
So what, I think what you're sayingis you would work extra hard to make
sure that the work was done so thatyou could prove to anybody that would
(33:52):
maybe hassle him or maybe would wantto create problems for you that just
because they're going to church doesn'tmean the rest of the work gets done.
In fact, what happened was all worked.
In other words, not only did wedo what we were supposed to do, we
looked and saw what needed to be donebefore he would even tell us to do it.
(34:19):
And he would brag aboutthat to his neighbor.
Jeez.
It's hard to give anybody a freepass, when they're owning slaves,
because it's just not right.
But it does appear thatthis was a decent man.
And probably was very conflicted withslavery altogether, I'm guessing.
(34:40):
Well, to some extent because thereality is, he actually sold my mother.
And three siblings that wereborn on that plantation.
Yeah.
What's up
with that?
I mean, when you were talking a minuteago about how you were saying that
you were a wicked man, let me tellyou what, if my family was getting
sold and we were getting split upand especially at that age, I mean, I
(35:01):
think this happened when you were 17.
If I'm getting split up from thesepeople that I'm caring about, especially
your mom, , how did you deal with that?
What did that look like?
This again is where, The faithand teachings of Christ come in.
Christ said, you got to forgivethose that do wrong against you.
(35:23):
Christ said that if there are peoplecursing you, you ought to bless
them and you ought to pray for them.
So because I wanted to be a genuinefollower of Christ, even though he
did those things, I forgave him.
(35:43):
And I prayed for him.
And I really helped himto become a believer as
well.
What a turn of events.
We were talking at thebeginning about people changing.
This is a person that owns you,that becomes inspired by you, and
then changes to become a versionof the life that you're living.
(36:08):
, he wanted to do what you were doing.
And so, was he really involved with thechurch then, once became a Methodist?
He became much more involved, and he wascut to the heart by the truth of God's
Word, because that preacher confronted himand said, basically, you're a wicked man,
(36:28):
because you dare to own another person.
That God has intended to be free.
Was that
preacher white or black?
He was a white man.
And there were several in Delawarethat were doing the same thing.
(36:50):
They were traveling aroundto the plantations and they
were confronting slave owners.
What you are doing is evil becauseyou have no right to take away
the freedom of another person.
I wonder if that's the way to end slavery.
I wonder if that's what has to happenbecause I think people are looking
(37:13):
for Somebody step up and make agrand gesture and say, okay, you
know, it's just slavery's abolished.
But then if that would happen, the,the country would fall into, into
peril because now , there's no workers.
I mean, it's a big mess and you got abunch of people that aren't educated
that probably aren't sure whatthey're supposed to do next as well.
And so it's not the easiestthing to just say that it's done.
(37:36):
But if somebody were to go from,Owner to owner and look at this from
a biblical sense and say, Hey, look,let's examine what's going on in here.
I wonder if that's the waythe change has to take place.
Well.
I did my part to communicatewith the whites in Philadelphia.
(37:58):
, I published pamphlets.
I cannot preach to everyone.
However, printing pamphlets andcirculating them was a way to get the
message out there concerning slavery.
And in a pamphlet that I wrote, Isaid to them, I want To warn you that
(38:24):
the God of the Bible hates slavery.
As an example, I reminded them whatGod did to the Egyptians who had
enslaved the Israelites through muchplagues and death and bloodshed.
(38:46):
He freed.
His people.
And I wanted to make it clear to everyone,God is not a respecter of person.
If he hated slavery backthen, he hates it still today.
And I warn them, if you love yourcountry, If you love the God of love,
(39:13):
free your hands from slaves, burden notyour country or your children with them.
Because when God was ready toend slavery in this country,
oh, he was going to end it.
And we might not like the way he did it.
Maybe God isn't capable of thesame change as you hope people are.
(39:35):
Maybe God's a little bit more consistent.
Absolutely.
God, doesn't change.
What he liked yesterday, he likes today.
What he didn't like yesterday,he still don't like it today.
The God
of the Bible then is theGod of the Bible now.
That's right.
He doesn't change.
And very unfortunately, what I saw in thechurches was that yes, they could agree
(40:04):
that you could be free, but they couldn'tagree that you are equal human being.
And that is really what drove thewhole inertia to just start our own
churches because so many Whites werebelieving that their white skin made
(40:25):
them more favorable in God's sight.
The
Bible clearly addressesslavery as being wrong.
You've just stated that perfectly.
Does the Bible address equality in men?
Yes, it does.
Because there are a couple ofscriptures that go along that.
The Bible says that from oneblood He made all nations.
(40:49):
You have Adam, you have Eve.
And from them came all the varietyof races that we see today.
And they are all equal in God's sight.
And in addition to that, I'mreminded of what Peter said.
You see, because in the beginning,there were Israelites that said, No,
(41:12):
these Gentiles, they're like dogs.
You can't really mix with them.
But God showed Peter very early on that hemust not call Any kind of person, common
or unclean, that in every nation of thisworld, those that come to God and they
(41:35):
acknowledge God and they serve God areaccepted by God regardless of their color.
Very tricky reading the Bible,because if you don't read it all,
you just catch a piece of it.
I think you miss a lot of the message
sometimes.
Oh yes I, that is why, that'swhy something like a slave
(41:56):
Bible, It's so horrible.
You've heard of slave bibles?
I have, but for somebody that mightbe listening to this for the first
time, explain what the slave bible is.
The slave bible, it just blows my mind.
Like, I want to get my hands on aslave bible just to see it, because
I can't even believe it exists.
But please explain that.
A slave bible was designed to communicateto Africans The part of the Bible that
(42:25):
would make them good servants and justforget about the idea of being free.
So there would be sections, wholesections, like for example, the
story of the Exodus from Egypt.
It's not in the Slave Bible.
Because they don't want you Theydidn't want the slaves to think that
(42:48):
God would rescue people from slavery.
And they would retain in the scriptures,the parts of the scriptures that
say that if you are a servant, youshould be obedient to your master.
So they would keep those parts, but notinclude the parts that clearly make it.
(43:12):
that people are not to enslave others.
Bishop Allen, can you even imagine abunch of white guys, a bunch of white
plantation owners, sitting around,they're smoking cigars and drinking
whiskey and they're working on.
The slave bible they're justkind of going through it line by
line and they're like let's see.
(43:32):
And they get to treat others asyou want to be treated yourself.
That's not going to work.
They scratch that off and they go tothe next thing, like what you just said,
like, Oh God, definitely leave that in.
That is so
absurd.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It, you really, the Bible, when youread the Bible has to teach you.
(43:56):
The Bible has to instructyou and show you the truth.
You don't go into the Bible with apreconceived idea and then see can you
find a verse here and a verse there thatare going to support what you thought
even before you looked at the Bible.
(44:18):
And of course, people like ThomasJefferson, he wrote his own Bible.
There is something calledthe Jefferson Bible.
And he believed, he didn't believein any kind of miracles or any
kind of supernatural things.
So what he actually did was go through theBible and take out anything supernatural.
(44:41):
And he actually gaveit to Congress to read.
So yeah, you can deceive yourself.
Oh, for sure.
I can't, I didn't know this either.
So was that Bible, was it pro slavery?
Yes.
Yeah, because it, when you take outthe power of God from God you get
(45:06):
the idea that man is in control.
Man can decide to do this,and man can decide to do that.
And that man has authorityon this earth, and not God.
So by editing the Bible in thatway, he really was not acknowledging
the authority of God, theauthority of Christ in this world.
(45:28):
I
understand that you have neverwritten your own Bible thank
God, and never will, I'm sure.
But you have done quite a bit of writingas you were talking about your pamphlets,
and I don't really know the story ofthis, but I heard something about a story
of something you wrote about a murdererof a white store owner or something?
Do you have any ideawhat I'm talking about?
And if so, can you tell me a little bit
(45:50):
Yes, there were two black gentlemen JohnJoyce and Peter Matthias, who mar who
murdered a white widow by the name ofSarah Cross, who's about 50 years old.
And when this happened, it was big news.
Those men were quickly caught,they were taken to trial.
(46:11):
And they were sentenced to death.
And this was big news in Philadelphiabecause there were a lot of
whites who said, you know what?
This proves that Africansdon't deserve to be free.
And they should be kept to be enslavedbecause you can see there's something
inherently evil about them thatthey would do this horrible crime.
(46:33):
Now this is John Joyce and Peter Mathias.
They are both black and theymurdered the white woman.
Yes.
And this is proof, of course,because white men haven't murdered
anybody throughout the years.
Well, this is the point that that this iswhat motivated me, number one, to go and
visit those men who had been condemned todeath, get them to confess their crimes.
(46:58):
And in addition to them, getthem to accept Christ as
Savior and just plead for mercy.
Amen.
Because, they were already going to beexecuted, but at least maybe they could
avoid the second death, going to hellfire.
So, I went and got those confessionsand addressed this pamphlet to the
(47:20):
public and to the African community.
To the public, I wanted to make sureit was clear this was not a race crime.
What it was, was a crime of moralFailure, because neither of those men
had accepted Christ as their servant.
Both of those men had the ability to work,but they decided they wanted more money.
(47:49):
And they had given themselvesto drunkenness and prostitution
and those kinds of things.
And the argument that I made was that,when you start sinning, it takes you on
a downward spiral and it can take youall the way down to committing murder.
(48:11):
But I emphasize to them that drunkennessis a problem in the white community.
Murder is a problem inthe white community.
So it shouldn't be looked at.
As a race crime, it was a crime that comesfrom man's fallen nature and sinfulness.
(48:32):
You have two men herethat, that are wicked.
And they just did not navigatethe challenges of living well.
They didn't have that momentthat you had where you fell to
your knees and said, I get it.
I need to start living differently.
And if these men had spent more time inchurch, or had been properly educated,
or any of those things, they couldhave had that moment where they made a
(48:57):
drastic turn to the right very easily.
That's right.
That's why I was glad In 1809, Africanministers in this city united and formed
an organization called the Society forthe Suppression of Vice and Immorality.
(49:19):
You see, because it's not good enoughfor us African members to sit in the
church and wait for them to come in.
We have to go out.
into the community and meet those peopleright where they are and share with
them the gospel, share with them theways to have a happy, successful life.
(49:47):
We had to go out and do that.
And you see the same kinds ofinitiatives were happening in
the white community as well.
, I was not the only minister to goand visit those men and to pray with
them and to sing songs with them.
There were white ministersthat went as well.
And when those two men had their finalwalk to the gallows, I was in the company
(50:12):
of about three or four other ministers.
And many of them were white.
And we sang songs with them,and they seemed to be at peace.
Knowing that they had to pay forthe consequence of their evil deeds.
These men, you had mentioned that theywere they had problems drinking, and
they had issues with money, and theycertainly had developed moral issues.
(50:35):
And I look at you now living this exactopposite life, being very responsible
and hardworking to make lots of money.
And I'm wondering, in your opinion,does God want people to be rich?
I don't know that Godwants people to be rich.
. , God wants us to get what we need thathe would provide and he would show us a
(51:00):
way that we could provide for our needs.
He was very clear.
Don't steal.
He was very clear.
Don't kill.
He was very clear.
Do not covet what other people have.
But as I said before, whatwe should do is to seek.
(51:24):
His kingdom and his righteousness, hisright way of living by faith in Christ.
And then he adds and heprovides for you as he sees fit.
And it isn't for everybody to berich because some people, when you
(51:45):
make them rich, you destroy them.
Because then they fall in love withthe money and they forget about God.
So no, everybody doesn't need to be rich.
We all have needs that need to be met.
But we ought to do themin the way that God says.
, It's difficult to be a moral person if you don't have the bare
(52:09):
minimums, food, shelter, a lot ofthings that only money can buy.
That makes sense.
That's
for sure.
That's for sure.
However, this again is where faithand a relationship with God comes in.
Because, there's a scripture thatsays , I was young and now I'm old,
(52:31):
but I never saw the righteous forsakenor their seed begging for bread.
We can trust God through a relationshipwith him to provide for what we
need and we don't have to fall intothe trap of stealing, of murdering.
(52:53):
of doing things to get what weneed that ultimately hurt us
and the society that we live in.
It appears that,
There are a lot of , preachers,that will go into the community and
encourage the reading of the Bibleand encourage studying the Word.
And it seems that your approach is morehands on, like, maybe we read for about
(53:16):
five minutes and then we spend theother 55 minutes in the hour going out,
talking to people, doing things, takingaction instead of thinking about it.
Am I on the right
path there?
Absolutely.
And I can tell you when I firstbecame a believer, I spent All of
my free time, reading the Word ofGod, praying, seeking God, listening
(53:43):
for his direction in my life.
You see, because you sayyou are a Christian, that
doesn't make you a Christian.
Because a Christian puts Christ and theWord of God As the first place in their
life, everything else is secondary.
(54:05):
And I believe that if peoplewholeheartedly come to the faith,
and by their faith they do thingsthat please God, this is the
path that we need to follow.
What could Richard Allen not do?
I mean, the owns businesses,the invests in real estate.
He travels the streets, preaching inhis spare time and even saves money to
(54:29):
buy his own freedom while he is a slave.
In the next episode, he talksabout gathering a group to vote
on the possibility of all Africansleaving the United States.
And he'll tell the absurdstory of founding father, Dr.
Benjamin Rush, recruiting him tohelp people dying of yellow fever
(54:50):
because black people can't catch it.
I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast.
If you haven't yet subscribed now,and we'll see you at the next episode
of the calling history podcastwith part two of Richard Allen.
Um, Tony Dean.
And today we'll be calling historyto speak with Richard Allen.
He'll be answering our call onSunday after church in 1830.
Richard Allen started life as a slavewith no last name before his 10th
birthday, he was sold as a fieldhand before 20, he was sold again
and then separated from his family.
(00:48):
He felt trapped and saw no hope.
Then a church opened up near hisenslavement and his owner made the
unpopular decision to encourageattendance and allow him to be educated
after starting with nothing thatwas all Richard needed to completely
rewrite the history of his family.
And.
And his people, he started businesses anduse those funds to buy rental properties.
(01:11):
Despite not being a citizen, he purchaseda church and called it mother Bethel,
African Methodist, Episcopal church.
I know it's a mouthful.
Which is why everyone callsit mother Bethel or a M E.
Throughout his life.
He created a safe place for people ofcolor to worship and learn so they could
become wealthy business people like hewas, or do whatever else they wanted.
(01:32):
The building that the AME currentlyworships in is the oldest parcel of real
estate in the United States that has beencontinuously owned by African-Americans.
This conversation is with anextraordinary man who understands what
it takes to overcome impossible oddsand the importance of giving back.
Once you have ladies andgentlemen, fellow history, lovers,
(01:55):
and everyone who has foundthemselves on the business end
of George Washington's Gemini.
I give you Bishop Richard Allen.
Hello, Bishop Allen.
Is that you?
Yes, it's me.
You.
Sir, I am thrilled to be speakingwith you today, my name is Tony
Dean, and I am talking to you fromthe future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding in yourhand is called a smartphone, and it allows
(02:18):
us to speak as if we were Sitting inpews next to each other in your church.
And it also allows me to sharea record of our conversation
with people around the world.
And I was hoping that I could ask you somequestions today because your commitment
to education, to rights, to freedom,it has literally changed our world.
(02:39):
, but before I do ask any of thosequestions, I understand this
is a very strange introduction.
Can I answer any questionsthat you might have
first?
No just assure me that thisdevice has nothing to do with
witchcraft and I'll be fine.
I will absolutely assure that is the case.
There is no witchcraft this device hasnothing to do with religion in any way.
(02:59):
It's just an advanced piece of technology.
Nothing to do with any of that.
Wow.
Interesting.
Interesting.
All right.
Well, let's let's proceed.
Good.
Well, , you have accomplished somuch and you've helped so many.
And the truth is, it's hard toimagine that this was even possible
considering what you started with.
Because people, when they accomplish bigthings in life, they'll say, Oh, I was
(03:22):
broke and things were hard and all that.
And then, you know, I wenton to do a lot of things.
Not only , did you not have any money,but it's my understanding that you didn't
even have your full name when you started.
Is
that correct?
Yes.
I was actually born withthe name Negro Richard.
That's what I heard.
Not a good thing to beknown as Negro Richard.
(03:47):
So one of the first things Idid when I got my freedom was
change my name to Richard.
Allen.
And that's a little bit of aninteresting story if you'd like to hear.
Yes, please.
My first owner was a gentleman bythe name of Benjamin Shue, Chief
Justice of Pennsylvania Supreme Court.
And he had a friend by the nameof William Allen, who would
(04:11):
also serve as Chief Justice.
In fact, he also would serveas Mayor of Philadelphia.
And he was so rich, hestarted his own city.
Did you ever hear of aplace called Allentown?
Now you're rich when you start your own
city.
That was his city?
Yes, Allentown.
(04:33):
So after he died, I decided I thinkI'd like to be known as Richard Allen.
That's how the name came about.
, did you choose that namebecause you thought maybe you'd
be rich one day?
Well, I respected the things thathe was able to accomplish, and I
hoped that I could also do the same.
(04:55):
You have to imagine that slavery isprobably not going to go on forever.
I mean, there are probablyalready issues with it right now.
But you can imagine that probablydoesn't go on forever and maybe it
even becomes illegal at some point.
And to consider that the chiefjustice at that time owned you,
there is a certain irony in that,assuming that it becomes illegal.
(05:17):
Would
you agree?
I would absolutely agree with that.
However from what I can tell, the FoundingFathers of this country walked very
much in the footsteps of the English,of the British, and they, the British,
made a lot of wealth from slavery.
So in a sense, when the Founding Fatherscame here, They had the same ideology.
(05:45):
They knew that there was a lot oflabor to be done in this country, and
they thought that they would addressthis as the British did with slavery.
So, yes, and we're justconsidered to be property.
And.
Ironically The idea of freedom withregards to England blinded them
(06:11):
to the idea of creating a countrywhere everyone could be free.
Because we were really, as enslavedpeople, just considered to be property
to be bought and sold at a whim.
When you look back at that, I mean,from where you stand, it's absurd.
(06:31):
But you can even imagine, where Istand, and I'm just gonna tell you,
slavery is not illegal anymore.
In fact, there's been ablack president in our time.
Like, the world is tot Yeah, I know,I knew you'd be surprised by that.
Wow.
And I know that sound.
I know that sounds impossible,but the thing is, had people like
you not stepped up and said, look,we're people, we deserve rights,
(06:52):
we would have never gotten there.
But It is it's such a thing tolook at the Founding Fathers and
then saying, we need our freedomwhile we are enslaving this people.
It just makes no sense.
You just have to assume that therewas a percentage of them that
thought, okay, this is crazy.
This is what we have todo, but it's just crazy.
(07:13):
I mean, they had to feel that
way.
Yeah I would agree to that.
And in addition to that,People change over time.
Now, I had personal experiencewith a gentleman by the
name of George Washington.
George Washington comes to Pennsylvania,he bypasses the Pennsylvania
(07:33):
laws, brings slaves with him.
However, as his life progressed, youcould see that his attitude towards race,
slavery, and equality began to change.
Would it surprise you to hear that when Isolicited funds for African Church, George
(07:54):
Washington is among the contributors.
In addition to that, when he died in 1799,I delivered a eulogy for him in my church,
and the reason was to acknowledge and topraise his decision to free his slaves
(08:17):
upon his death and his wife's death.
So people change, and I knew a number ofwhite people in Philadelphia that were
even Ben Franklin, who was originallya slave owner, eventually becomes
president of the Pennsylvania Society.
(08:42):
So I saw a change, however, the amountof inertia to be overcome was a lot.
And so, as you mentioned slaveryexists in my time, and I actually
don't see an end of it in the horizon.
I did see in 1808.
(09:04):
How slavery importation andexploitation was, illegal.
However, I didn't really see the same zealend slavery altogether in the country.
I didn't know all of thisthat George Washington donated
money towards your cause.
(09:25):
That, that's amazing.
And . There was one question that I wasgoing to ask you and I think you just
answered it as I look at your life andthe tolerance that you show people that,
later throughout the years would beseen as ignorant and backward thinking.
When I look at this tolerance, I kindof wonder, where does that come from?
(09:46):
I mean, here you are, a young kid,you're a slave, treated like property
and then pieces of your family are soldapart, . And here you are, despite all
of that, being tolerant, and I wonderif that's what you're looking for.
You're just waiting for thatmoment for people to change because
you understand that they can.
Well,
That's my hope that all peoplewill come to the conclusion
(10:10):
that all men are created equal.
However, I have a responsibilityas a Christian to be a light in the
world, to be the salt of the earth,to stand up for what is right and
have love in my heart for everyone.
(10:31):
Forgiveness in my heart.
For everyone and acknowledgethat there is a God.
He had a son, Jesus Christ, who diedfor our sins and that those that have
faith in him can depend on him inthis life and in the life to come.
(10:53):
We should all be so lucky tohave . Somebody like you around us.
that light around us You hadmentioned Ben Franklin and you'd
mentioned George Washington.
Did you actually meet either of them?
Yes In fact for a while.
I worked as a chimney sweep athis residence at 6th and Market
for George Washington or Ben Franklin?
(11:14):
, George Washington.
George Washington lived at 6th and Market.
Oh.
And because, chimney fires arebig issues here in this city.
One of the ways I made money wasto work as a chimney sweep, even
though I am also a minister at St.
(11:37):
George's Methodist Church for a time,because they only gave you expenses.
If you really want to makea living, you have to work.
And that's a part of the work I did.
And in addition to that, the enslavedpeople that George Washington had at his
residence, you could see them from timeto time walking around Philadelphia.
(12:00):
And I got to meet the personal enslavedservant of Martha Washington, Oney Judge.
And in fact, I was among thoseAfrican Americans that assisted her.
escape from the President's house.
Okay, alright.
We're gonna unpack this for a second.
(12:21):
. This is a lot.
Alright, first of all.
So you're a chimney sweep in George
Washington's house.
Yes I have a business.
I did it as a, as an individual, butthen I expanded it to a business to
be a chimney sweep to earn money.
Okay.
Now, when you say that you wouldsee in Philadelphia, you would see
(12:41):
George Washington's slaves wanderingaround Philadelphia was that normal
for a slave?
Well, let me put it to, , letme put it to you this way.
I'm referring.
Primarily to only judge MarthaWashington's personal enslaved servant
because she would sometimes have free timeand she would sometimes have to come out
(13:08):
of the president's house to run errands.
And when she did that, she wouldmeet other free Africans like myself.
who had businesses, whomade their own decision.
So I got to personally know her.
And in fact, I had also started ashoemaking business and there did
(13:32):
come a time where Oney asked GeorgeWashington for some money for some shoes.
And a lot of the Africans came to me.
To buy shoes.
In fact, in my home, I hadapprentices that I was helping
to learn the trade as well.
So, okay.
Back to Martha Washington and Oni judge.
(13:53):
You helped her escape, Washington's place.
Is that correct?
Yes.
The free Africans, I'm goingto say we had met with.
Only contacted us because she's veryconcerned, because Martha Washington
plan give her away as a wedding presentto her granddaughter in Virginia.
(14:19):
And Ona didn't want anything to dowith that because that Granddaughter
had a reputation of being harsh andcruel and she approached us for help.
And we began by just sort ofgradually moving out some of
the property that she had there.
(14:41):
And , when she did escape on a springnight in 1796, we hid her until she
could get a ship that was headednorth to Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
So we agreed to work togetherto help her to escape.
Were there any consequences from
Washington?
Well, it's interesting you shouldsay that, because of course Martha
(15:03):
Washington is insisted That GeorgeWashington placed an ad in the newspaper
that was being published by BrianFranklin at the time, because they
would have slave catcher ads in there.
But George Washington doesn'twant that, because it's bad
publicity, because there's manyabolitionists here in Philadelphia.
(15:24):
, and they actually think thatmaybe somebody kidnapped her.
Because , in their minds, they hada hard time imagining that anybody.
Would leave because she was beingtreated better than many of the
slaves that were in this country.
So George Washington does agree toget his nephew to go and find her.
(15:47):
And the nephew found her andasked her, why did you run away?
Did someone make you?
And Oney said, no, I leftbecause I wanted my freedom.
Now the nephew has to come back and tellGeorge Washington, this is not sitting
well with him and Martha, ultimately.
And he does send out slavecatchers to try and catch her.
(16:12):
But the people in Portsmouth,New Hampshire, hid her.
And eventually, she was able
What a story.
I didn't know any of that.
And so therein lies the beginningof the story of later in your life.
You operated a station onthe Underground Railroad for
decades.
Yes.
(16:32):
One of the first things that wedid was, of course, start a school.
But in addition to that, werealized that we needed to do
our part to help escape slaves.
Freedom by housing them and myhouse that it was not uncommon
(16:53):
that there were maybe two or threerunaways in my home that I hid.
And in addition to that,we use the church as well.
Did you ever have any runins with the law because of
this?
Not because of.
That, however, I did have run inswith the law for another reason.
(17:14):
Now, what happened with theFugitive Slave Act of 1793?
Basically, it removed Pennsylvaniato be a place of safety for
runaway enslaved people.
And there were slave catchers.
And then there were also thesepeople called slave speculators.
(17:34):
A slave speculator?
Doesn't know for sure that you'rean escaped slave, but they come to
Philadelphia, they see all thesefree walking around, and they
say, You are an escaped slave.
You look kind of slavey
to me.
But one of these slain speculatorswent down to the alderman's office,
(17:55):
swore out a false oath against me thatsaid I was a recently escaped slave.
Enslaved person.
Wow.
Well, the constable actuallycame to my home to arrest me.
However, he's ashamed to lookme in the eye because I'm a
well known figure in this city.
So he doesn't arrest me, but he justtells me, go down to the Alderman's
(18:19):
office and straighten this out.
And that's exactly what I did.
However, I did discuss this matterwith a white friend that I had
by the name of Isaac Hopper.
And he suggested and encouraged me tofile a civil suit against the one who
had taken out a false oath against me.
(18:41):
And you know what?
I went to court, and I actually won.
$800 judgment . And the slave catcher, theslave speculator, he doesn't have $800.
So guess what happens to youwhen you cannot pay your debts?
You go to debtor's prison.
And you know what?
I let him stay there for aboutthree months just to teach him a
(19:02):
lesson before I drop the charge
about as passive aggressiveas you can possibly be.
You know what I mean?
Well, I just wanted to teach him a lessonbecause I wondered what would happen if
he did this to another African in the citythat maybe wasn't as well known as I was.
Gosh, that is incredible.
So I wanted to make sure helearned a hard lesson because
(19:22):
Detters Prison is a horrible place.
But why is that?
Well, it's not a place whereyou're going to get good food.
It's not a place where they're goingto make you to be very comfortable.
So, I know that there were even somepeople in the city that were hurt by
how horrible it was in debtors prisonand were trying to make some reform.
(19:45):
But you know, a lot of peopleended up in debtors prison.
Do you know that Robert Morris?
You ever heard of Robert Morris?
No.
Who is he?
Robert Morris is the the superintendentof finances during the Revolution.
. And he was EXTREMELY wealthy.
Now, during the time of the Revolution,he's helping to raise funds, and
(20:06):
he's contributing a lot of his money.
And he's getting his friendsto contribute as well.
And he actually guarantees hisfriends that they'll be paid back.
But very unfortunately, thegovernment is having a hard time
paying back the loans they receive.
And because of that, Robert Morrisactually ends up in debtors prison.
(20:28):
I believe he was therefor about three years.
Even though he was one of thewealthiest men in this country.
He had so many debts he couldn't payand he had made some bad investments
and also he was involved in slavetrade as well that didn't work out
he just leverages himself too far.
Jeez.
So, when you were talking about being achimney sweep and you had your shoe store,
(20:51):
it sounds like you are very industrious.
, do you make a significant
amount of money?
Well, I can tell you this.
I made enough money that most of themoney that it took to buy the first
site of Mother Bethel came out of mypocket, and I had a lot of difficulty.
(21:11):
With the Methodist organizationhere because I signed letters of
incorporation in 1796 and theyjust wanted to dominate and control
everything that happened in our church.
So two thirds of the church membershippassed something called the African
supplement when we said, no, we're goingto retain ownership of the property.
(21:36):
and operations of our church.
The Methodist didn't like that.
And actually we had no solid legal basisto change the letters of incorporation.
So what they did was they put the buildingup for public auction in the year 1815.
However, I had enough money to go.
(21:59):
and buy the church back off of auction.
It cost me 10, 125.
, that's a lot of money at the time.
Oh yes, I was making afair amount of money.
I had a home in the city, andI had a country home as well.
you're talking about buying property,. It's my understanding that this is
something that, that you preached toyour congregation that for people
(22:22):
to build wealth or just the generalimportance of owning property, do you
have some strong feelings about that then?
Yes, extremely.
Extremely.
, yes, we're deniedcitizenship in this country.
Yes, you're free.
But you are not a citizen here.
You have no voting right.
However, I believe we should do whateverit is that God helps us to do to prosper.
(22:47):
And nothing stops us fromworking, saving money, and doing
business, even owning real estate.
, over the course of my life, I was ableto purchase and own 10 properties.
And it's actually my understandingthat Bethel Church is the property
(23:13):
that was the oldest to be owned.
By Africans in this country,
So how many propertiesdo you own right now?
Is it the church andothers or just the church?
It's the church, my two homes,and other rental properties
now, I did have other businesseslike dry goods, I had some dry goods
(23:34):
stores, but as the years went on, Istarted to focus more just on property.
Getting income from property from rental.
That's magnificent.
I mean, it's so it's just hardto even imagine you can't vote.
, you don't have citizenship andyet here you go starting all these
businesses and owning property.
(23:56):
It's no wonder thatyou've been successful.
So let's go back a little bit firstquestion that I asked you, I had
said that, you've accomplishedso much and I think we've drawn
a decent picture financially ofhow much you've accomplished.
But let's talk about,well, life as a slave.
So you start out as Negro Richard.
And you are a slave at seven years old.
(24:18):
Is that right?
Well, I'm born a slave.
I'm born a slave.
The first owner is Benjamin Shue.
When I'm seven years old, he sold mywhole family to a plantation owner.
In Delaware, by thename of Stokely Sturgis.
Stokely Sturgis was not a cruel man.
(24:40):
He tried to be like, we arehis children, he is our father.
However, by the time I'm a teenager,I'm extremely Depressed because
I realize that I have no future.
I'm going to work from sunup to sundown.
Somebody else is going to getthe benefits, but it's right
(25:01):
around that time that someMethodists who were anti slavery.
And we're looking to see what they did tohelp to spread the gospel to Africans and
also educate Africans started a church anda school close to where I was enslaved.
(25:25):
And I to go to those churchservices and to the school as well.
Now, going to church, this is whereI started to hear the gospel message
that helped me to have a differentperspective on the life that I was living.
(25:46):
Rather than to just see myself as a slavewith no future uh, I began Because of
the gospel preaching to see myself as achild of God and that I needed to live my
life to please God and to accept Christas my Savior and that I was taught that
(26:12):
Christ came to set the captives free.
And Christ encouraged everyone who wasfeeling oppressed and heavy laden from
the things of this world that theyshould come to Him and He would give
them peace and He would give them rest.
And the message that I heard, thatI accepted with my whole heart, that
(26:37):
I should seek the Kingdom of God.
Which was a greater kingdomthan the kingdom of this world.
And that I should seek the righteousness,the right living that Christ offers
through His His resurrection.
And that if I focused , myattention on those things, my
(26:59):
life would be totally changed.
And in fact, from the time thatI accepted that message, I had
a whole new perspective on life.
I no longer saw myself assomeone who was trapped.
In the kingdoms of this world, but thatI was a child of God that was accepted
(27:21):
in the kingdom of God and my life bearswitness that the faith that I had in that
came to pass because I was able to get myfreedom and I was able to be a preacher.
And I was able to eventually become abishop of an African church denomination.
(27:41):
Did this all come at one time?
Did you hear a sermon that made you feelall of this, that you were a child of God?
Was it several momentsthat build on one another?
What did that look like?
I would call it as hearing thatmessage and sort of accepting
it, but not in my heart.
(28:03):
I felt that I actually I was a wickedperson, I lied, I did a lot of wrong
things as a slave and I accepted it, butat some point I doubted that it was real.
Until one night, out of desperation, Ifell down on my knees and I cried out to
(28:27):
him with all my heart and immediately Ifelt freedom like I had never had before.
I felt so free.
That I started holding prayer meetingsin my owner's kitchen, and my owner,
who was not a believer, became
a believer.
(28:47):
Stokely Sturgis?
Yeah.
Yes, he was not a believer.
In fact, I suggested to him that heshould invite preachers to come to the
plantation so that he could hear directlyfrom those preachers the Gospel message.
(29:08):
And he agreed.
And I found a preacher who came to him.
Now, that particular preacher had been aformer slave owner, but now he realized
it was evil, he freed his slaves, andhis ministry was actually to go to
plantation owners and to confront themthat they needed to free their slaves.
(29:30):
And that's exactly what happened.
He came, and he confronted my owner,and he eventually agreed to find
a way for me to get my freedom.
He allowed me to execute an agreementwith him when I was 20 years old.
And the agreement was that over the courseof 5 years, I should give him 400 a year.
(30:01):
And this was a legaldocument that was prepared.
However, I was able to do that inthree and a half years because I
did whatever extra work I couldfind so that I could buy my freedom.
And
so as a slave, you worked extra, founda way to make extra money and then
paid your owner Stokely Sturgis 2, 000.
(30:26):
And that's how you got your freedom.
That's exactly right.
. I found work as a woodcutter a bricklayer.
I even, for a time, delivered saltfor the Patriot Army from Rehoboth
Beach, Delaware to Valley Forge.
To Valley Forge.
Wow.
I think that the people that will hearWhat we're talking about right now,
(30:48):
if they were to go and search how much2, 000 would be in our time, I think
they would be absolutely stunned athow much money that is in your time.
Because, I mean, in your time,what could you buy for 2, 000?
Could you buy a house for 2, 000?
As I mentioned, I bought a wholechurch property for 10, 000.
So If you're talking about a smaller home,yes, maybe you can do that for 2, 000.
(31:16):
Now the price for me washigher because I had education.
If you are a slave with education,you are worth a lot more than a
slave that does not have education.
For others who don't have education,maybe the price for their freedom
(31:37):
would be half or even less than that.
, I want to talk about your education,but there's a couple things I
want to go back on for a minute.
Stokely Sturgis, I love this guy'sname Stokely Sturgis, Is it normal
for an owner of slaves in yourtime to encourage their people to
(32:00):
go to church and to get educated?
Because that hasn't been my experience
so far.
Absolutely not.
That's where I believe thatGod had a hand in this somehow,
because it is really extremelyunusual for a slave owner to want.
(32:22):
They're slave to be taught the scripturesand to be taught to read and write.
In fact, let me tell you this.
Sturge's neighbors beganlaughing at him and warning him.
Wow, look at what you're doing.
You're going to let your slaves goto church and let them get education?
(32:44):
They will absolutely ruin your business.
And I can tell you, we knewthat this was happening.
So there were actually times when we weresupposed to go to church, or we were
supposed to go to school, we didn't go.
(33:04):
In fact, he would come to us and say,Hey, you're supposed to be in church.
You're supposed to be in schooland we would tell him, no, we are
not going because our work progressis not what it should be to keep
us from being behind in our work.
So there were times where we willwork all night just to make sure no
(33:29):
one could point a finger at educationor getting faith to be a bad thing.
Oh,
I see.
So what you're, okay, I wastrying to keep up with you there.
So what, I think what you're sayingis you would work extra hard to make
sure that the work was done so thatyou could prove to anybody that would
(33:52):
maybe hassle him or maybe would wantto create problems for you that just
because they're going to church doesn'tmean the rest of the work gets done.
In fact, what happened was all worked.
In other words, not only did wedo what we were supposed to do, we
looked and saw what needed to be donebefore he would even tell us to do it.
(34:19):
And he would brag aboutthat to his neighbor.
Jeez.
It's hard to give anybody a freepass, when they're owning slaves,
because it's just not right.
But it does appear thatthis was a decent man.
And probably was very conflicted withslavery altogether, I'm guessing.
(34:40):
Well, to some extent because thereality is, he actually sold my mother.
And three siblings that wereborn on that plantation.
Yeah.
What's up
with that?
I mean, when you were talking a minuteago about how you were saying that
you were a wicked man, let me tellyou what, if my family was getting
sold and we were getting split upand especially at that age, I mean, I
(35:01):
think this happened when you were 17.
If I'm getting split up from thesepeople that I'm caring about, especially
your mom, , how did you deal with that?
What did that look like?
This again is where, The faithand teachings of Christ come in.
Christ said, you got to forgivethose that do wrong against you.
(35:23):
Christ said that if there are peoplecursing you, you ought to bless
them and you ought to pray for them.
So because I wanted to be a genuinefollower of Christ, even though he
did those things, I forgave him.
(35:43):
And I prayed for him.
And I really helped himto become a believer as
well.
What a turn of events.
We were talking at thebeginning about people changing.
This is a person that owns you,that becomes inspired by you, and
then changes to become a versionof the life that you're living.
(36:08):
, he wanted to do what you were doing.
And so, was he really involved with thechurch then, once became a Methodist?
He became much more involved, and he wascut to the heart by the truth of God's
Word, because that preacher confronted himand said, basically, you're a wicked man,
(36:28):
because you dare to own another person.
That God has intended to be free.
Was that
preacher white or black?
He was a white man.
And there were several in Delawarethat were doing the same thing.
(36:50):
They were traveling aroundto the plantations and they
were confronting slave owners.
What you are doing is evil becauseyou have no right to take away
the freedom of another person.
I wonder if that's the way to end slavery.
I wonder if that's what has to happenbecause I think people are looking
(37:13):
for Somebody step up and make agrand gesture and say, okay, you
know, it's just slavery's abolished.
But then if that would happen, the,the country would fall into, into
peril because now , there's no workers.
I mean, it's a big mess and you got abunch of people that aren't educated
that probably aren't sure whatthey're supposed to do next as well.
And so it's not the easiestthing to just say that it's done.
(37:36):
But if somebody were to go from,Owner to owner and look at this from
a biblical sense and say, Hey, look,let's examine what's going on in here.
I wonder if that's the waythe change has to take place.
Well.
I did my part to communicatewith the whites in Philadelphia.
(37:58):
, I published pamphlets.
I cannot preach to everyone.
However, printing pamphlets andcirculating them was a way to get the
message out there concerning slavery.
And in a pamphlet that I wrote, Isaid to them, I want To warn you that
(38:24):
the God of the Bible hates slavery.
As an example, I reminded them whatGod did to the Egyptians who had
enslaved the Israelites through muchplagues and death and bloodshed.
(38:46):
He freed.
His people.
And I wanted to make it clear to everyone,God is not a respecter of person.
If he hated slavery backthen, he hates it still today.
And I warn them, if you love yourcountry, If you love the God of love,
(39:13):
free your hands from slaves, burden notyour country or your children with them.
Because when God was ready toend slavery in this country,
oh, he was going to end it.
And we might not like the way he did it.
Maybe God isn't capable of thesame change as you hope people are.
(39:35):
Maybe God's a little bit more consistent.
Absolutely.
God, doesn't change.
What he liked yesterday, he likes today.
What he didn't like yesterday,he still don't like it today.
The God
of the Bible then is theGod of the Bible now.
That's right.
He doesn't change.
And very unfortunately, what I saw in thechurches was that yes, they could agree
(40:04):
that you could be free, but they couldn'tagree that you are equal human being.
And that is really what drove thewhole inertia to just start our own
churches because so many Whites werebelieving that their white skin made
(40:25):
them more favorable in God's sight.
The
Bible clearly addressesslavery as being wrong.
You've just stated that perfectly.
Does the Bible address equality in men?
Yes, it does.
Because there are a couple ofscriptures that go along that.
The Bible says that from oneblood He made all nations.
(40:49):
You have Adam, you have Eve.
And from them came all the varietyof races that we see today.
And they are all equal in God's sight.
And in addition to that, I'mreminded of what Peter said.
You see, because in the beginning,there were Israelites that said, No,
(41:12):
these Gentiles, they're like dogs.
You can't really mix with them.
But God showed Peter very early on that hemust not call Any kind of person, common
or unclean, that in every nation of thisworld, those that come to God and they
(41:35):
acknowledge God and they serve God areaccepted by God regardless of their color.
Very tricky reading the Bible,because if you don't read it all,
you just catch a piece of it.
I think you miss a lot of the message
sometimes.
Oh yes I, that is why, that'swhy something like a slave
(41:56):
Bible, It's so horrible.
You've heard of slave bibles?
I have, but for somebody that mightbe listening to this for the first
time, explain what the slave bible is.
The slave bible, it just blows my mind.
Like, I want to get my hands on aslave bible just to see it, because
I can't even believe it exists.
But please explain that.
A slave bible was designed to communicateto Africans The part of the Bible that
(42:25):
would make them good servants and justforget about the idea of being free.
So there would be sections, wholesections, like for example, the
story of the Exodus from Egypt.
It's not in the Slave Bible.
Because they don't want you Theydidn't want the slaves to think that
(42:48):
God would rescue people from slavery.
And they would retain in the scriptures,the parts of the scriptures that
say that if you are a servant, youshould be obedient to your master.
So they would keep those parts, but notinclude the parts that clearly make it.
(43:12):
that people are not to enslave others.
Bishop Allen, can you even imagine abunch of white guys, a bunch of white
plantation owners, sitting around,they're smoking cigars and drinking
whiskey and they're working on.
The slave bible they're justkind of going through it line by
line and they're like let's see.
(43:32):
And they get to treat others asyou want to be treated yourself.
That's not going to work.
They scratch that off and they go tothe next thing, like what you just said,
like, Oh God, definitely leave that in.
That is so
absurd.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It, you really, the Bible, when youread the Bible has to teach you.
(43:56):
The Bible has to instructyou and show you the truth.
You don't go into the Bible with apreconceived idea and then see can you
find a verse here and a verse there thatare going to support what you thought
even before you looked at the Bible.
(44:18):
And of course, people like ThomasJefferson, he wrote his own Bible.
There is something calledthe Jefferson Bible.
And he believed, he didn't believein any kind of miracles or any
kind of supernatural things.
So what he actually did was go through theBible and take out anything supernatural.
(44:41):
And he actually gaveit to Congress to read.
So yeah, you can deceive yourself.
Oh, for sure.
I can't, I didn't know this either.
So was that Bible, was it pro slavery?
Yes.
Yeah, because it, when you take outthe power of God from God you get
(45:06):
the idea that man is in control.
Man can decide to do this,and man can decide to do that.
And that man has authorityon this earth, and not God.
So by editing the Bible in thatway, he really was not acknowledging
the authority of God, theauthority of Christ in this world.
(45:28):
I
understand that you have neverwritten your own Bible thank
God, and never will, I'm sure.
But you have done quite a bit of writingas you were talking about your pamphlets,
and I don't really know the story ofthis, but I heard something about a story
of something you wrote about a murdererof a white store owner or something?
Do you have any ideawhat I'm talking about?
And if so, can you tell me a little bit
(45:50):
Yes, there were two black gentlemen JohnJoyce and Peter Matthias, who mar who
murdered a white widow by the name ofSarah Cross, who's about 50 years old.
And when this happened, it was big news.
Those men were quickly caught,they were taken to trial.
(46:11):
And they were sentenced to death.
And this was big news in Philadelphiabecause there were a lot of
whites who said, you know what?
This proves that Africansdon't deserve to be free.
And they should be kept to be enslavedbecause you can see there's something
inherently evil about them thatthey would do this horrible crime.
(46:33):
Now this is John Joyce and Peter Mathias.
They are both black and theymurdered the white woman.
Yes.
And this is proof, of course,because white men haven't murdered
anybody throughout the years.
Well, this is the point that that this iswhat motivated me, number one, to go and
visit those men who had been condemned todeath, get them to confess their crimes.
(46:58):
And in addition to them, getthem to accept Christ as
Savior and just plead for mercy.
Amen.
Because, they were already going to beexecuted, but at least maybe they could
avoid the second death, going to hellfire.
So, I went and got those confessionsand addressed this pamphlet to the
(47:20):
public and to the African community.
To the public, I wanted to make sureit was clear this was not a race crime.
What it was, was a crime of moralFailure, because neither of those men
had accepted Christ as their servant.
Both of those men had the ability to work,but they decided they wanted more money.
(47:49):
And they had given themselvesto drunkenness and prostitution
and those kinds of things.
And the argument that I made was that,when you start sinning, it takes you on
a downward spiral and it can take youall the way down to committing murder.
(48:11):
But I emphasize to them that drunkennessis a problem in the white community.
Murder is a problem inthe white community.
So it shouldn't be looked at.
As a race crime, it was a crime that comesfrom man's fallen nature and sinfulness.
(48:32):
You have two men herethat, that are wicked.
And they just did not navigatethe challenges of living well.
They didn't have that momentthat you had where you fell to
your knees and said, I get it.
I need to start living differently.
And if these men had spent more time inchurch, or had been properly educated,
or any of those things, they couldhave had that moment where they made a
(48:57):
drastic turn to the right very easily.
That's right.
That's why I was glad In 1809, Africanministers in this city united and formed
an organization called the Society forthe Suppression of Vice and Immorality.
(49:19):
You see, because it's not good enoughfor us African members to sit in the
church and wait for them to come in.
We have to go out.
into the community and meet those peopleright where they are and share with
them the gospel, share with them theways to have a happy, successful life.
(49:47):
We had to go out and do that.
And you see the same kinds ofinitiatives were happening in
the white community as well.
, I was not the only minister to goand visit those men and to pray with
them and to sing songs with them.
There were white ministersthat went as well.
And when those two men had their finalwalk to the gallows, I was in the company
(50:12):
of about three or four other ministers.
And many of them were white.
And we sang songs with them,and they seemed to be at peace.
Knowing that they had to pay forthe consequence of their evil deeds.
These men, you had mentioned that theywere they had problems drinking, and
they had issues with money, and theycertainly had developed moral issues.
(50:35):
And I look at you now living this exactopposite life, being very responsible
and hardworking to make lots of money.
And I'm wondering, in your opinion,does God want people to be rich?
I don't know that Godwants people to be rich.
. , God wants us to get what we need thathe would provide and he would show us a
(51:00):
way that we could provide for our needs.
He was very clear.
Don't steal.
He was very clear.
Don't kill.
He was very clear.
Do not covet what other people have.
But as I said before, whatwe should do is to seek.
(51:24):
His kingdom and his righteousness, hisright way of living by faith in Christ.
And then he adds and heprovides for you as he sees fit.
And it isn't for everybody to berich because some people, when you
(51:45):
make them rich, you destroy them.
Because then they fall in love withthe money and they forget about God.
So no, everybody doesn't need to be rich.
We all have needs that need to be met.
But we ought to do themin the way that God says.
, It's difficult to be a moral person if you don't have the bare
(52:09):
minimums, food, shelter, a lot ofthings that only money can buy.
That makes sense.
That's
for sure.
That's for sure.
However, this again is where faithand a relationship with God comes in.
Because, there's a scripture thatsays , I was young and now I'm old,
(52:31):
but I never saw the righteous forsakenor their seed begging for bread.
We can trust God through a relationshipwith him to provide for what we
need and we don't have to fall intothe trap of stealing, of murdering.
(52:53):
of doing things to get what weneed that ultimately hurt us
and the society that we live in.
It appears that,
There are a lot of , preachers,that will go into the community and
encourage the reading of the Bibleand encourage studying the Word.
And it seems that your approach is morehands on, like, maybe we read for about
(53:16):
five minutes and then we spend theother 55 minutes in the hour going out,
talking to people, doing things, takingaction instead of thinking about it.
Am I on the right
path there?
Absolutely.
And I can tell you when I firstbecame a believer, I spent All of
my free time, reading the Word ofGod, praying, seeking God, listening
(53:43):
for his direction in my life.
You see, because you sayyou are a Christian, that
doesn't make you a Christian.
Because a Christian puts Christ and theWord of God As the first place in their
life, everything else is secondary.
(54:05):
And I believe that if peoplewholeheartedly come to the faith,
and by their faith they do thingsthat please God, this is the
path that we need to follow.
What could Richard Allen not do?
I mean, the owns businesses,the invests in real estate.
He travels the streets, preaching inhis spare time and even saves money to
(54:29):
buy his own freedom while he is a slave.
In the next episode, he talksabout gathering a group to vote
on the possibility of all Africansleaving the United States.
And he'll tell the absurdstory of founding father, Dr.
Benjamin Rush, recruiting him tohelp people dying of yellow fever
(54:50):
because black people can't catch it.
I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast.
If you haven't yet subscribed now,and we'll see you at the next episode
of the calling history podcastwith part two of Richard Allen.
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The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.