May 15, 2024 • 55 mins
In Part 2 of the 1870 conversation with Ruby Waller, she will talk in detail about the extraordinary place called Urania cottage giving fallen women a safe plan to start again by creating a new life in Australia. She'll also explain what a badger game is. And she'll talk about her meetings later in life with Charles Dickens when he was an old man.
Start the episode now to join the conversation.
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From Connecticut to Maine, from Baltimore to London, Jennifer Emerson has honed her craft as a living history playwright, First-Person Interpreter, performer, and speaker over the past twenty-three years.
Her first novel, Dickens and the Whore, is a work of historical fiction concerning Dickens and his involvement in prostitution reform. Jennifer currently works as an actor with History Alive, Inc and on the staff of The House of the Seven Gables.
Her Portrayal of Ruby Waller will leave you breathless and eager to see Jennifer at one of her live events.
You can find out more about Jennifer at: thepetticoatpages.com Instagram: ThePetticoatPages1693 Facebook: facebook.com/thepetticoatpages
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Welcome back to part two of Ruby Waller.
In the last episode, Ruby told usabout her terrible stepfather, her
first encounter with Charles Dickensand how she met the doctor that
would eventually become her husband.
In this next episode, she's going totalk in detail about Urania cottage.
What a Badger game is.
And what happened when Rubymet Charles Dickens later in
(00:49):
life, when he was an old man.
there was one night ismy husband close by?
I'm just looking.
Oh, no, he's in hispractice, so his door's shut.
Well, I should tell you I'll justturn my chair around and face
the fire so he can't hear me.
But there was one night beforeI, , before I was, I found myself
in the Thames and was in, in theprison where I met Joe, that Dickens
(01:10):
and I had gone back to the rookery.
And we'd had a, we'd knocked backquite a few gins, and I'd had it by
this point of who this dandy was,and why was he always picking me up,
and why was he always just talking.
As I said, I was an idiot.
I should have just been gratefulthat he didn't want to hurt me.
And after a few drinks,I straddled his lap.
(01:32):
And I kissed him full on, becausemind you, he wouldn't touch me.
I kissed him full on, and we wereforehead to forehead, and I basically
said to him, Stop pretending.
You think you're a littlegentleman, don't you?
You really think you can pull itoff, but secretly you'd love to
know what it's like to just runaway, and let go, and be one of us.
(01:53):
You'd never admit it, but you'redying to try it, ain't you?
Oh, and the look on his face,I knew I'd gotten to him then.
And I grabbed his hand and Isaid, let's see how brave you are.
And I brought him to the second floor.
And up there they had a bit of a, Isuppose you'd word use the word orgy.
Do they still use that word where you are?
Um, Oh, very good.
(02:15):
And that's what it was.
And these poor girls were with theirclients and there was drink all over.
And.
puke and sweat and girls who were sodrunk and had various fluids all over
their dresses that the dresses were nolonger one color because the dye on these
beautiful silk gowns had been ruined.
(02:36):
By all of this and one girl that weencountered, , she was so ready to
pass out that the men were mixingwater and gin and mustard powder and
they were forcing it down her throatand then she would puke and pass out
again and they thought it was grand.
And I brought him up, I brought thisdandy up because I wanted to see just
how far he was gonna go and he lookedaround as if he'd seen this before.
(02:59):
He wasn't shocked.
And then a great big, man came over andshoved his girl into Dickens arms and
he was trying to grab me and he toldhim, he said, here, you have a go with
this one, she's nice and tight, wouldyou say I have a go with yours and and
Dickens, I will give him credit, hedefended me like a true knight of old.
He clocked that man, knocked him overand then we both ran out of the room
(03:23):
and wouldn't admit that he had fun.
And I was still chiding him, going, You,you know how to handle your fives well.
Come on, let's go back in and do it again.
And he threw me up againstthe wall, and he kissed me.
That was the first andonly time our lips touched.
And he said, If you think I am alowly choir boy, you are mistaken.
And I said, Prove it.
(03:43):
And he said, Take me somewhere where I cantalk to you, and I'll tell you everything.
I'll answer all your questions.
And I told him it would cost him.
And he looked at me and hesaid, Name your price, woman.
And that night we spent in a room thathe rented and, oh lord, we got so drunk.
But he got more drunk than I did.
And he'd made the punch.
He was a marvellous makerat Gin Punch, I must say.
(04:05):
And while he was out cold,I took his clothes off him.
because I know a bit about doingthis, about stealing from men.
And that's when I got a goodlook at his watch chain.
And I have to tell you, Tony, there wassomething singular the little pendant
that was hanging down off of his watchchain looked like a knight's shield.
(04:27):
You know, that, that shape and itwas a stone a beautiful swirly
green stone that, which I have nowfound out it was called malachite.
And I've flipped it over.
And it said to CD from,it was something like MGH.
the first initial was Mand the last one was H.
(04:49):
And it had a date on it.
And I thought, who thehell is M something H?
Because it wasn't his wife.
I knew his wife's name was Catherine.
So when he woke up, I'd puta shawl to him because I knew
he'd be cold when he woke up.
He woke up to me, sitting triumphantlyon a pile of his folded clothes,
with a pair of scissors in me hand,looking at him, saying, alright,
(05:12):
I savoured out, who are you?
C.
D.
What's that mean?
And he finally told me who he wasand that he wanted to save me.
In a way, and I didn't really believehim, but it said CD on the watch pendant,
and I thought, oh, God, that must be him.
I'm talking to Charles Dickens, naked, ina room, and I'm sitting on his clothes,
(05:35):
with a pair of scissors in my hand, andall he's got to hide his manhood is a
ratty old shawl that I've given him.
Ha!
another Tuesday.
Just another day.
That's right.
That's right.
And he said, meet me in a few days.
I'll explain everything.
I promise you I'm not trying to hurt you.
And I was never able to get to thatappointment where I knew he would
(05:57):
have explained everything about Uraniabecause I was assaulted in the alleyway.
And I tumbled into the Thames tosee, you see how that progressed yes.
And so, the second time I met him in theprison, that's when it really hit me.
But, God damn it's him,it's Charles Dickens.
I know who he is, he's the mostfamous writer in the world.
He's talking to me!
(06:17):
Wait, who, wait, who is MGH on the watch?
ah, well, , that comes in later.
That's his sister in law, Mary Hogarth,who had died at the tender age of 17.
I found out, not through him henever talked about her, but I
found out through another party,that , they'd been very close.
(06:40):
And that there were some who consideredthat perhaps, shall we say, to put it
delicately, that he had married thewrong sister, if you take my meaning.
Wow.
But she had been living with themto help manage the household and he
considered her just an angelic creature.
And they were very good friendsand she supported his work.
And remember, he was just starting out inthe late thirties becoming famous then.
(07:04):
And , I'm sure he needed allthe support he could get.
That's quite a bit of pressure whenyou're becoming famous, I would assume.
For sure.
she died of a heart ailment, I havebeen led to believe, although I cannot
confirm, but she died in his arms.
And of course, Mrs.
Dickens was so upsetthat she lost her baby.
She'd been pregnant at the time.
(07:25):
It was just an awful period for them.
And I've never known, but I would guess,that perhaps saving young girls, in a
way, in his mind, maybe he's saving girlswho had just as much potential as Mary.
And of course, she, She was a veryrespectable girl, but she was robbed
of her life as well, and he couldn'tgive her life back, and maybe through
(07:48):
us he could Somehow achieve that, Idon't know, and at the same time help,
help people who really needed it.
Because nobody else gave a damnabout it, I can tell you that.
, . He did more with his pen and his stories.
And his nightly walks aroundLondon than some of the MPs and
the Lords in Parliament sittingon the backsides ever did.
(08:11):
For the common man,and I'll stand by that.
Well, no, I, and rightfully so.
Okay.
So you're in prison now
and you meet Charles Dickens andso, and he takes you to Urania
Well, he didn't take me himself.
I had to My foot was still verygouty, and I was still weak.
So , Dr.
Wilkins who we now call Joe, my husband,said I wasn't to be moved just yet.
(08:36):
He wanted me in what did he say?
Ship shape in Bristol fashion.
I guess it's a sailor'sexclamation, but he wanted me in
Bristol fashion before I left.
And of course, as a doctor,that was his responsibility.
You're not leaving until you're healthy.
And that's that.
But he visited me every day andDickens visited me regularly,
even gave me a lovely dress andtold me all about the place.
So I knew what to expect when I got there.
(08:58):
And I knew that the lady who was goingto collect me from the prison to take
me to Urania Cottage was the new matron.
And so I'd been told all about Mrs.
Holdsworth, who was an older womanand very matronly, I was told.
And she would collectme in a handsome cab.
And take me to Shepherd's Bush, whereUrania Cottage was waiting to receive me.
(09:23):
And I was part of suffice to say virtuallythe first cohort, or the first class of
girls to begin this experimental project.
program of reform we we're calling itbut the whole idea appealed to me in
certain respects because , yes, we calledit reform and the only reform that,
(09:43):
that I had heard of was in places likethe Magdalene and other places where
it, reform, it was all drudgery andyou're a miserable sinner and repent
of your wicked ways and all that.
the way Dickens had designedthis was quite revolutionary.
He thought reform should not be drudgery.
If you're going to help someone changetheir life, why can't they have a bit of
(10:04):
fun and colour while they're doing it?
So, we were to wear bright colours, andhe chose fabrics himself for us to make
dresses out of, and made sure that wehad clothes that were lovely to wear.
Not ostentatious, mind you, no silksbut we were looking lovely, like ladies.
And
So, just colorful dresses.
You're not dressed inall black or anything.
(10:25):
Oh, no, we couldn't, wouldn't be anyway,black is expensive, no, none of that.
None of that at all.
And we was taught how to cook, to read,to write to do maths and to count, and
such, and manage household accounts,because it is the ladies of the household.
that do that.
It's not the men.
They're off doing whatever they do.
(10:46):
And to manage a house, as I saidand to make soup for the poor
out of what was left over from ameal, so that nothing was wasted.
We had to attend schooling every day,and this was all done inside the cottage.
And on Sundays, we did goto church with chaperones.
That was not point to be argued about.
You went.
(11:07):
Whether you wanted to or not, and therewas no swearing, you were not allowed
to be dirty, you washed every day.
We had little gardens out back totend to, so we learned about that.
We even had access tomusic and could sing.
And my favorite aspect of being there wasthat we had a little friend in the parlor.
In fact, he was the only gentlemanallowed at Urania Cottage.
(11:30):
, I called him Rex, and he was a brightlittle canary, and he was adorable.
And so we took turns cooing overhim and we would feed him crumbs.
But we always laughed and saidhe was the only man allowed in.
And so we had a little bird to carefor as well, but again, it's nice
for a lot of these girls, and theywere much worse off than I was.
(11:50):
Remember, I had, at least I had a warmroof over my head, and they didn't.
They were more hardened street rats,you might say, . And I was pretty
hard, but I wasn't that tough.
But I was tough in mind.
If not in body.
And we didn't all get along, butwe were able to come to an amiable
(12:11):
accord, because we all knew thatit was either this or go back out
there, and none of us wanted that.
So there were scrapes andscraps, but we got the job done.
Well, this sounds like a wonderful place.
Whether you came from the streets or not.
I mean, it sounds likeyou have everything.
You've got school, you've got church.
(12:31):
It sounds really difficult, though, toput all these different personalities
in the same place because these wouldbe tough people, as you're describing,
that are thinking that everybody has anulterior motive and it's not their best
interest and they're trying to survive andthinking what they can get out of this.
, did people steal?
Did people get kicked out of the cottage?
Oh yes.
Well, there was one particular girl,Marianne, who I never got along with.
(12:55):
And of course she had it in for methere was no love lost between us.
She was a bitch to me from the beginning.
I'd come in and . girls greeted me theyrose and curtsied, because that's what
the other matron Miss Fisher, toldthem to do, and I curtsied to them,
and invited me to sit down with them.
Well, there, there was abolt of fabric on a chair.
(13:17):
And I asked Marianne, because she wasclosest, if she could move it for me and
she didn't want to, and then it was puton the table, and then I further asked
her because it was next to her now, andI said, might I see that bolt of fabric?
And she said, you could see it,, from where you are, well enough.
And I thought, well, I could either poundher into the floor, or I can try and
(13:38):
impress these ladies and use my manners.
So I thought to myself,maybe if I say please?
And I said, may I pleasesee that bolt of fabric?
And I'm thinking to myself, before Ibludgeon your goddamn face with it And
then she just tossed it my way and itlanded on the table with a thud and
later that night I found that all thesepretty dresses and things that we were
(14:02):
wearing along with all of the silverwareand such was all locked away at night.
And the clothes that we wore, the dresses,were locked in a cupboard at night.
So that we couldn't steal anythingin the middle of the night and
run off with it and sell it.
, Dickens had thought of that.
He realized that some of the girlshere would try and abuse the privilege.
And I was sharing a room with one ofthe girls on my first night there.
(14:25):
We all shared rooms.
Nobody was on their own.
And actually it was quite nice becausethen you'd have someone to And And she
took , one of my shoes off the floor andshe was basically accusing me of sleeping
with Dickens in order to get in becauseI was so small and clearly not a street
whore that I must have serviced him inorder to gain a place, that I was his new
(14:50):
little pet, that he was keeping me there.
And she was licking the toeof the boot, you know, as if
she was giving someone a head.
And calling me a slut.
And again I just, I thoughtto myself I could pound you
into the floor if I wanted to.
But if, I know if I dothat, I'll be tossed out.
And you know that if I dothat, I'll be tossed out.
So she was really getting under my skin.
(15:11):
But I got my revenge on herbecause she eventually messed up.
And I did end up getting her thrown out.
Which I'm quite proud of, actually.
. I'm wondering right now if there aremen that found themselves in this
situation, maybe they were workingat the facility or, , somebody that
maybe Dickens thought could be trusted,but ended up taking advantage of the
(15:32):
situation because he would have seenthere's a whole bunch of prostitutes
in this room , that can't talk back.
Were there situations like thatwhere somebody came in and took
advantage of what was happening there?
Maybe, , it just didn'tgo as planned in that way?
No, for the very plain reason that. There were no male staff whatsoever.
There was no man who'd come into clean the carpets or, , no
chimney sweep, no nothing.
It was all girls.
(15:53):
And the only man who ever visited was Mr.
Dickens.
He would come insometimes to have a chat.
And we, of course, we'd make tea.
tea and serve it in the parlor and hewould sit with us and again he always
treated us like people which we weren'tused to even those of us who thought
we had it well you know it was onlyuntil I met people like Dandy as I call
(16:13):
him it's foreign to me to call him Mr.
Dickens but so I should call himDandy and Joe That I really understood
what it was like to be a person andnot an object or a hole to play in.
And so he comes sometimes and then ofcourse Joe did call once and only once and
that was towards the end of my time there.
(16:34):
And I didn't see him again untilI met him again , in Australia.
When my ship come in, but there wereno men there the only time that
we had interactions with men wouldbe at church, but of course we were
chaperoned but it was good practicefor us to interact with respectable men.
And of course a lot of the men that,that had come to us for servicing
(16:56):
thought themselves respectable andeveryone else thought they were
respectable, but they were actually,, dogs in gentleman's clothing.
Yes, absolute scoundrelsindeed, sir, which is quite
the insult where I come from.
A man would challenge you to a duel,sir, if you were to call him a scoundrel
in public, or even call him a fellow.
That was, oh, that wasgrounds for punishment.
A fellow is
(17:16):
Yes indeed.
Oh it can be, it could be a evenas bad as calling one a scoundrel.
It might be challengedto a dual with pistols
How would you call somebodya fellow in your time?
Like I know how to , call somebodya scoundrel, but I don't, know
how to use fellow in a sentence.
well, fellow can be a familiarterm, but it can also be an insult.
So you would know based uponwho was saying it to you.
(17:37):
the English language isa funny thing, isn't it?
One word can mean many differentthings just like, hang out.
Dickens uses it in Pickwick.
Someone says to Pickwick, I saythere, where do you hang out?
Well, of course, hanging out,it means Where do you reside?
Where do you frequent?
But it can also mean, , you'rehanging your wash out to dry.
(17:58):
It's hang out.
So the English language is a funny thing.
Dickens was responsible fora lot of words like that.
Wasn't he?
Oh, yes, indeed.
, he talks about Scrooge was, I dolove this line, Scrooge was not
in the habit of cracking jokes,nor was he by any means waggish.
That's one of my favoritesthat he wrote, cracking jokes.
They say that.
Where you are.
(18:19):
they definitely do.
They
Oh, marvelous.
I love, oh, that's one of my favorites.
I love that.
I'll tell you where I'll tell youwhere I'm stuck right now is that
you said something a minute ago.
I can't get it out of my head.
You mentioned it earlier and youmentioned it now, and this one,
you just casually said, Oh, Imet him when I was in Australia.
Why again, are you in Australia?
Oh, because that was partof Dickens brilliant plan.
(18:41):
So we would be in the cottage andwe were for one year and all of our
lessons and all the things that welearn, , we were graded on, you might say.
We got marks.
And at the end of our timethere, the marks translated into.
money.
And that was the, that was the moneythat, that, that paid for our fare.
(19:03):
And all of this money was donated byMiss Angela Burdett Cootes, who was
the heir to the Cootes banking fortune.
And she was the benefactressof Dickens brilliant plan.
And so it was all paid for.
And we went with chaperonesin small groups on ships to
Port Adelaide, Australia.
Where we're met by the clergy andrespectable people who would put us
(19:26):
in respectable lodgings, help us findrespectable jobs, and introduce us to
respectable men who we could then marry.
Which, and I, not being themarrying kind myself, I say that
ironically now, of course, yeah.
Never entered my mind to marry anyone.
Because of whatever happened to my mother,I thought, no, I shall never marry.
(19:48):
No man shall ever use me that way.
In fact, I remember saying toDickens it's better to be a
hired hand than an unpaid slave.
And that's how I viewed the institutionof marriage at that point in my life.
It was only after I met Joe that I evenconsidered But we went to Australia and
then the idea behind all of this planof uranium cottage was to turn us into
(20:11):
respectable women who were attractiveto a good, decent man who would want
to take one of us as their lawful.
Wife and treat us with respect and loveand protect us and all those things that
men promise they're gonna do when theymarry her and then they never do it To
let us back out into society in Londonwould have been disastrous because most of
(20:36):
the men in high scale London, as they callit, society, they were mostly our clients.
So they would have known us.
So that would have been disastrous usto, turn out as a soiree or something.
And they'd know us and thenwe'd, the game would be up.
So
that
makes complete sense.
So he sends you to Australiawhere nobody knows who you are.
(20:56):
And it is literally a fresh startafter your, , might you call this
wife training at Urania house?
it.
Indeed.
Yes.
And again I don't know the sentimentsof women where you are on the
other end of this marvelous device,but it, is the thing to do here.
You, a woman marries not only forhopefully for love, although not
(21:20):
always, but also for financial securitybecause there are so few options.
for women as we've beentalking about all along.
And so, that was part of the plan.
And I thank God that I was able to gothrough the term that I spent at Urania.
And , it didn't turn out the waythat Dickens envisioned it would, as
(21:44):
far as I was concerned, but throughA series of circumstances connected
to Urania, I did meet a good, decentman, who is the love of my life.
But did you meet Joe in Australia?
Well, I shall explain, because Ididn't explain it very well, did I?
I'm sorry, dear.
(22:05):
It's been a great while since I'vethought about any of this, and I am, Joe
teases me, he says, Well, dear, you areover 40 now, so you're losing it a bit.
Of course, I just, , slap himon the back of the head, and
then he pulls me in for a kiss.
But I I met him again in Australia becausehe knew that was where I had to go.
He was my greatest advocate.
(22:27):
He believed in me.
He said, I want you to gothrough the whole program.
Go through all of it because if you don't,my darling, you will kick yourself later.
Do this for yourself so that youcan look back and say, I did it.
And I did it for me.
So I did, I finished the program.
Although I wasn't there the whole time.
And if you do want to talk aboutit, I'm than happy to tell you.
(22:50):
But when I got there,he was waiting for me.
But what happened in between that timeis a story you might like to hear.
Yes, please.
Oh, very good.
Well, I shall tell you then.
Well, it is nice, I should say, talkingto a, to another man who, you seem very
kind, and I'm sorry, Joe's with a patient.
He'd probably like to meet you.
He would at least be marvel at thisthing in my hand, and it is rather
(23:14):
bright light, but I kind of like it.
So, Joe.
And you can hear me all right, can you?
I don't have to speak up.
Oh, no, absolutely can hear you perfectly.
Like I'm standing next to
Oh, I wish you were.
I'd invite you over for tea.
, I'm a very good baker.
You're missing out on my spice
I do feel like I'm missing out, butto be quite honest with you, after
(23:35):
we got done with the baked goods, I'dstill want to go to the djinn palace.
Yeah,
Well, speaking of unnatural thingsor sort of strange things, what
happened next after I arrivedat Urania was very strange.
(23:55):
Through a series of circumstances,Dickens come over one day and
he asked me if I would make adress for one of his daughters.
Because I knew I was quite agood seamstress in my own right.
And I said, well, I don't thinkyou want to bring her here.
I think your wife will haveyour head if you bring her into
a place of, , retired paws.
(24:18):
And and he said, well,no, you come to my house.
And I thought, well, now Iknow you've really lost it.
You've lost the plot, Dickens.
You can't bring me over to your house.
And he said, it's my house.
And yes, I can.
And what's for?
My wife is for it.
She wants to meet you.
I just about fell over and and I said,well, as you say, sir, as you say.
(24:38):
So a cab picked me up and took me the nextday and I walked in and there was Mrs.
Dickens, a very kind lady,beautiful, heavy lidded eyes,
so kind and intelligent.
There was a fire behind thoseeyes and she had tea ready for me.
Isn't that nice?
Someone of my.
(24:59):
situation, and here this, thewife of the greatest author of our
age wanted to have tea with me.
I thought that spoke verywell of her character.
So we sat and had tea, but I noticedthat she was looking at me a bit funny,
and I thought that was just from,she's just trying to not judge me.
She's trying to be a lady and bekind and be a charitable Christian.
(25:19):
But it wasn't pity.
But she was looking at me asif, the only way I can describe
it is as if she saw a ghost.
But she was very kind.
And we talked for a bit, and thenin ran her little daughter Katie,
who was full of fire, absolutelyfull of fire, intelligent, charming,
witty, beautiful little creature.
(25:40):
And I was to make a dress for her.
So we was we was left alone.
And I worked my magic on her, andand she did think it was magic.
And we were talking as girls do, about,, stories and fairy tales and things.
And and I told her thatmy nickname was Lilac.
And she said, You're theLilac Fairy, aren't you?
(26:01):
My father told me about you.
Well, he had told his children that he hadmet someone who was very nice, but instead
of telling them that he was talking toa prostitute, he used my nickname, Lilac
, because I was very little, he described meas a fairy, with beautiful wings, you see.
And so she said, Oh,you're the Lilac Fairy.
And I was taken a bit aback,because I thought, why is he
(26:22):
telling his children about me?
But then I realized hewas just telling stories.
he's a storyteller.
Yeah, you're just a
character in one of his kid's stories.
Of course as of course anyone wouldbe yes, yes and so, we talked a bit
more, and then she told me, you know,you do look a lot like Aunty Mary.
(26:42):
She died a long time ago,
oh,
and we
like Mary from the watch.
exactly, Mary Hogarth.
And that made my blood runcold, and I thought, that
bastard, what's he up to now?
Is that really why he's bringing me here?
It can't be, it can't be, he's so,I wouldn't call him a good man, but
(27:03):
I'd call him a great man, and I wasabsolutely flustered and I thought,
I can't lose it in front of thischild, it's got nothing to do with
her, so I told her that I didn't needher anymore for measurements, I told
her to run along and get her supper.
And I went to where his office was andI confronted him about it and he still
would not talk about her and he wasupset that I would even say her name.
(27:26):
He was quite offended that I thoughtthat's why he was interested in me.
That he was secretly in love with her,and I looked like her, so he was, well,
I think you can, I think you can guessmy meaning, and I started to undress
to see what his reaction would be.
I went right back into that placeof a wounded young girl, I'll use
(27:47):
you for everything you can get.
You see where my mind went with that?
I'm not ashamed of anythingI've ever done, because I lived.
I'm still here, so make no mistake aboutthat, but I do regret my actions hurt
him, because he never meant to hurt me.
It was happenstance who I looked like,but he really did want to help me.
(28:07):
And I ran out with only mycorsets on really I hadn't
bothered to put my dress back on.
And I was able to remember Dr.
Wilkins address off of MarchmontStreet, was Crescent Lane.
And he had a house there.
He had rooms there.
And I ran there.
When you're a girl like me,you know London very well.
(28:29):
And I was good at running in the dark.
And I found his place and I bangedon the door for all it was worth.
And all I saw at first wasa light, like a lantern.
And it came down, and there he was, andhe looked at me, and he was, it was like
he was looking at the return of Christ,he was so shocked, and he said, Ruby.
And I said, may I come in, Dr.
(28:50):
Wilkins, please?
I was shivering.
I was absolutely shivering, and he broughtme in, and he took care of me, and I
stayed with him for about a week, and hekept telling me, you've got to go back.
You can't live here.
It's not respectable.
You've got to go back and I knew hecared for me deeply and I was Realizing
how much I cared for him and weargued I didn't want to go back But
(29:13):
he had work to attend to so he wasout at a local workhouse tending to
his patients And I thought, well I'llmake it up to him, I'll go apologise.
There was a basket of knitted goods,mittens and hats and shawls and things
that had been donated for the poor.
(29:34):
And I thought, I'll bring them tohim and he can distribute them to
the poor and I'll apologise faceto face for arguing with him.
And when I got into the cab,it stopped a few streets away.
In a quiet, little not an alleyway, butit was large enough to put a coach in.
(29:57):
And, I heard boots hit the cobbles,and then I heard a voice I hadn't
heard in a long time, and thedoor opened, and it was Top.
He'd found me.
He'd been looking for me all that time.
And it was only by me runningthrough the streets of London in my
petticoats that an informant found me.
(30:17):
Had said, I know where she is.
And he was trying to kill me.
I mean, the look, Tony,the look in his eye.
He had me pinned against the cobbles.
He was gonna kill me.
And I couldn't calm him down.
I tried to.
I said, I'll go anywhere with you.
I was, I'm so sorry that I left you.
I was such a fool.
You're the only one that's ever loved me.
You know, I said anything Icould think of to calm him down.
(30:40):
And I said, Then Dickens showed up.
Of all things, I mean, you couldn't, hecouldn't write this in one of his novels.
He had a pistol in his hand.
He had a lantern.
There was another young man in hisemploy with him, who also had been
watching me, to make sure I was safe.
And he addressed Top as if he were thefinest gentleman on earth, and he said,
(31:04):
If you wish to take her somewhere,sir, and she wishes to go with you,
I will pay for the tickets myself.
I concede, sir.
You win, she is yours.
So he was playing along.
Very good actor.
we were both trying to keep Top calm.
And then finally, I realized thatit wasn't going to work, and if
I didn't act now, I was going tobe dead in another ten seconds.
(31:27):
And I plunged my thumbs into his eyes,and I blinded him, and that's the only
way I was able to get out from him.
And I ran towards Dickens, and thenI heard the crack of a gunshot, my
arm was on fire, and I passed out.
And the next time I woke up,I was in another hospital bed.
This time at the workhouse downthe street, and Joe was there.
(31:51):
And after that, I went back to Urania,I finished the program, I got onto the
ship, recovered, ready for a new life,and as we had planned, Joe met me in
Australia, and from there we were married,and we went to Boston for a while.
And then we came back here to England,and I hadn't seen Dickens in years, until
(32:17):
Oh, it was in Mechanics Hall in Boston,and Dickens was performing, so I guess
he was getting his acting in after all.
And he was performing one manperformances of the greatest,
most popular scenes in his novels.
And it was a wonder.
(32:37):
He did it here in Englandand in Wales and etc.
And then he went over to America, andit was his second visit to America.
, I'd learned he'd also gonein the 40s when he was young.
But this time he went to perform.
And he was a one man wonder.
All his shows were selling out.
(32:58):
And Joe and I decidedwe'll go and see him.
We won't bother him, but Ijust wanted to see him again.
The man who had saved me.
And we sat very close to the front row.
And I should tell you, , Dickensprobably wouldn't want me telling
anybody this, but I will anyway.
We were seeing him performon the second floor of this
newly finished mechanics hall.
(33:20):
A great big building, beautiful buildingand ideal for performances and such.
The first floor had been usedthat same day for a poultry show.
So there was, , hundreds ofthousands of chickens down there,
Very
exciting show.
indeed, yes, and the and the lights wereoff, the lamps were off down there to
(33:44):
keep them quiet so that they would sleep.
The moment that they turned the gas lightsup on the stage, just before Dickens.
Took the stage to begin his performance.
There were cracks, slight cracks in thefloorboards, and some of that light crept
through, and after about ten seconds,it was and that's all you could hear,
(34:10):
and clucks and bucks, and everyone wasthinking, my God, we'll never hear him.
How was he going to projectover such a ruckus with that?
Thankfully, finally they died down andthey must have gone back to sleep or
people went down there and I don't knowwhat they covered the cages or something.
And we were able to hear him.
And although that was a very humorousmoment that I shall never forget, it
(34:32):
was quickly followed by the shock of mylife because the man on the stage was
not the man I had said goodbye to in,in in Shepherd's Bush when I had left
Gerania Cottage all those years back.
It was an old man, his beautiful hairwhich was now grizzled, he was partially
(34:56):
bald, he had whiskers, great big whiskersthat were quite grizzly, and all of his
hair was sort of swept forward on hishead and his beard was swept forward,
it was as if when he turned sideways itwas as if this great wind was sweeping
him from the back pushing him forward.
He looked thinner than he had.
(35:16):
And so tired at lines that wereetched, carved, in his face.
And the lights were stillbright behind his eyes.
But there was something gone.
I thought, my God, he looks so tired,but his performance was brilliant.
You'd never know.
I mean, he put every bitof himself into them.
He did a Christmas carol.
(35:37):
. And, of course, we all wept at Tiny Tim'sdeath, and we all rejoiced at Scrooge's
redemption, and he really did become thecharacters with his body and his voice
and the way he would scrunch up his face.
It was brilliant.
I'd never seen anything like it.
And then he did.
Oh, he was, absolutely, but my heart sank.
Looking at him and I rememberwhispering to Joe and I said
(35:59):
he's ill and Joe said yes he is.
Didn't need to be a doctor to lookat him and know that he was ill.
Little did I know he was dying.
And
has he passed along inyour time right now?
oh yes, he's been deadfor some months now.
He died back in, in June.
In fact, I was able to pay my respectsat Westminster Abbey where he is buried.
(36:21):
What is the year in your time?
Oh, it is the year 1870,,and he died in June.
, I saw him a few days beforehis death, which was June 9th.
I saw him a few days beforehand.
He was along the side of theroad in Rochester, which is
in Kent the Garden of England.
Beautiful place.
(36:42):
And he was sitting on a stone wall andI had no idea that it was him, but I saw
and I thought it was an old man who'dtripped because he was holding his leg.
And I was walking along you know,we British love a good walk.
And I went to him and Ithought, do you need help?
And he said, He turnedaround and it was him.
(37:03):
I knew it was him.
And he looked at me, and at firsthe looked elated and then his face
sank as if he thought, my God,what are you doing back in England?
, you were supposed to be in Australia.
Oh, he thought something went wrong.
He thought something went wrong.
And I assured him that nothing had,and I helped him to the nearest pub.
They knew him there.
He'd been living inthe area for some time.
(37:23):
He'd , bought a house and they knew him.
He'd often send for drinkand they would have it.
Delivered, of course, when he wasentertaining friends and such.
And I bought him a brandy.
That was his favorite.
Also Madeira, but thistime he ordered brandy.
And Joe came in he'd been close behind.
He'd been finishing up with apatient, but he caught up with us.
(37:45):
And we talked and he could see that Iwas happy and that I had married Joe.
And he was very happy for us, but Icould tell . He was still a bit sad
that I'd come back, but I assuredhim I'm out here in the country,
nobody knows us, everything's fine.
Joe and I are very happy, we have nochildren, but we feel truly blessed.
And it's due to you, so thank you.
(38:05):
And I was able to thank him, face to face.
And he said, well you must come andvisit me at Gad's Hill, which was the
name of the house that he'd bought.
And I found out, he'd seen that housemany times as a young one with his
father when they'd gone on long walks.
And his father had said to him,if you work hard, one day you
(38:27):
might own a house like that.
And wouldn't you know, when he grewup, he bought and he lived in it.
At least he made some dreamscome true for himself.
Well, and a lot ofother people, obviously.
Yes, amen to
I find it so interesting that when he seesyou, the first thing that he doesn't think
is, Oh my gosh, it's good to see you.
Or, , jump up and hug you.
(38:48):
The first thought is he comesback to that moment where he's
probably all the time that you'vebeen out of his view, he's been
thinking, I hope she's okay.
And
then when he, and maybe even thinking,as long as I never see her, She's okay.
And then he sees you andsays, Oh no, I failed.
Like he cared that much with everythingelse that was going on in his brain and
(39:12):
doing everything that it took to buythis house that he saw when he was a kid.
He was still thinking, , are you okay?
Yes.
And that was part of his kindnessas a, not as a writer or not
as a famous man, but as a man.
, as the Bard of Avon said, , warts and all.
But , he did have a kindness to him.
He wasn't always kind.
(39:33):
I mean, he'd separated from his wifeat this point and had taken up with
some young girl who I met, actually.
So there is a little man in him still.
A little
Tony, I thought better of you.
Well,
I mean that in the best possible
I, I know, my dear, but, youknow, well, you're not wrong.
But he invited us when we weresitting in that pub to, to
(39:55):
call upon him at his house.
And he says, well, let's makeit the ninth the ninth of June.
And that's the day that we went is wewere expecting to perhaps stay with him
at least one day, if not more and he, wewere certainly welcome, he told us that.
And , as we approached the house, wesaw that there was a great fuss of
carriages and people coming in and out.
(40:16):
And immediately I thoughtsomething's wrong.
And so did Joe and we thoughtwe'd better investigate.
So we went in and I saw.
A woman grown, now, who Irecognized as the young girl I'd
made the dress for, it was Katie.
And she saw me, and she recognized me, andshe ran into my arms, and she was crying.
(40:36):
And , there was some other gentlementhere as well, and they informed us
that that my dear Dandy had a stroke.
And, it was not long for this world.
And so, I told Katie to be strong, andI let her cry on my shoulder for a bit.
And then she let go of me and sheushered me into the room where he was and
(40:58):
other members of his family were there.
And I would wager some of themperhaps were household staff.
And he was laid out on a beautifultype of couch, I believe in
French, it's a chaise lounge.
And he looked very peaceful.
He was sleeping.
His chest was still rising and falling,but I was allowed to go up to him.
(41:21):
I explained, I said Iknew this man personally.
I would like to say goodbye to him.
And Joe was there.
And I didn't realize I'd been squeezinghis hand so hard, but I let go and
I walked up and I knelt by Dickens.
And he didn't stir at all.
, if he knew my presence, Henever gave way that he did.
He was absolutely still.
And I took his hand in mine,and I said, Dandy it's lilac.
(41:43):
I've come for my gin.
And I said, Joe's here too.
Everyone's here.
And thank you.
And a single tear rolled down his cheek.
And then he was gone.
wow.
What a life.
It's a very precious moment for myself,and I think everyone else who was there.
What would your life havelooked like if you hadn't been
(42:06):
wandering the streets and just
bumped into this man,
. I wouldn't have lived too long, too muchlong after because I would've either run
away or the top would've gone crazy andkilled me or something would've happened.
I was far too reckless, and as I said,foolish, although I was not to blame.
I've never blamed myself formy situation when I was little.
But, as I've said before,the man saved my life.
(42:27):
He was both a sinner and a saint.
He was far from perfect.
None of us are perfect.
But
at having kids.
he was very perfect athaving children, yes.
Some even say he had one with thatyoung girl of his, and that it died.
Her name was , Ellen Ternan,they called her Nellie.
She's been an actress.
And I met her.
(42:48):
She was there.
, I saw her in the gardenafter it was all over.
She didn't come inside.
She was in the garden, beautiful roses.
And she was looking at them and ofcourse , she was in a State of shock.
She was very still but hands were shakingand she had that look And I know that
I know the look of shock in a woman'seyes and She's sort of mumbling a bit
(43:10):
about how he liked he'd like flowers.
He liked roses and then Shesaw me and she started to cry.
I think she thought that perhaps Iwas there to berate her or something
and I understood through what she wastelling me, I understood who she was.
I understand that typeof girl when I see one.
And I didn't judge her.
(43:31):
I thought, well, maybe she loved him.
Maybe she didn't.
That was none of my business.
Suffice to say she was thereand that's who she was.
And I thought to myself, my God, ifsomebody with my experience had come
across, Me, when I was your age, all Iwould have wanted was a bit of comfort and
encouragement, so that's what I gave her.
I told her, I said, look at me,and let me tell you who I am.
(43:54):
And I told her that I had oncebeen a hired hand, , a prostitute.
And I said, but the man whojust died in there, he saved me.
I said, I don't know what yoursituation is, but take it from me,
You don't let them get you down.
, you dry your eyes, and you hold yourhead high, because you are not to
(44:15):
blame whatever your situation is.
Not in this world.
Hold your head high, and whatever happens,you can always come and talk to me.
I gave her Jo's calling card.
And told her, you can always come tous, if you need to, you can always come
and talk to me, I will never judge you.
I knew him too.
(44:35):
I saw him at his worst,I saw him at his best.
And you've got a friend, if you want one.
. She never visited us, but I certainlyhope that she had a good life.
I hope that she was able tofind a man who, who loved her.
And and be happy.
Lord knows she deserved it.
Yeah.
If looking back at this time thatyou spent with your dandy, what do
(44:58):
you think his biggest flaw was?
Women.
Is that what it Is
biggest, flaw was that he didn'tknow a damn thing about us.
And I will say, Tony, most of you don't.
You don't know a damn thing about us.
Oh, believe me, we men, we know that.
We're
not sitting around thinkingwe know anything about women.
Alright, fine then.
What I fail to understand is whynone of you do a damn thing about it.
(45:20):
If you don't know anything aboutwomen, why don't you listen?
Why don't you talk to us andtry and really get to know us?
I'll give Dickens that credit.
He did.
But he was also doing it for thereason of creating this program.
But, and that is mybiggest regret as well.
Is that I didn't just sit down,as a friend and talk to him.
(45:41):
I kept running away from himwhenever I saw him early on.
And I wish that I'd just talked with him.
Instead of the banteringand the teasing that we had.
. How could you have, there's no way toknow if you can trust him after everybody
else is throwing you against walls and, throwing you into rivers and things.
I mean, there's just no way.
If I knew then what Iknow now, I would have.
(46:04):
And of course I didn't,but it's still a regret.
And, but he didn't knowanything about women, really.
And I can only guess.
I guess, though I don't know, becausehe never talked about his early life,
never, and I never pressed the subject.
He was more interested in talking about mychildhood, which I did finally tell him.
But I can only guess, based upon my ownlife experience, that something must
(46:28):
have happened to him when he was a boy.
Perhaps he went through a trauma of hisown, I've no idea if that's true or not,
but I would wager That it had somethingto do with his mother, because he had
a very strange way of regarding women.
Stranger than any man I've ever met.
(46:50):
Now, of course, it's still his choiceto regard women in whatever way.
But I would not be surprised, althoughI can't claim to know that something
must have happened to him in hisearly life that formed his view of
women or maybe he was rejected by alover when he was young or something.
I don't, you know, never got over it.
I've no idea, but I do know thatdespite his flaws and despite the
(47:14):
egregious way that he treated that saintwho was his wife he was a good man.
And that's the rub of it, isn't it?
That you can still be a goodperson, you can still care about
the people around you, and youcan still try to do good things.
And you can still be a horrible person.
The irony of you saying that hisbiggest flaw was women and yet he took
(47:40):
all these women whose lives were bleakand gray and just painted them with
beautiful colors and in fact, the safestplace in the world that they probably
could have been , would be near him.
And yet that would be his flaw is women.
Yes!
Isn't it?
It is very ironic.
And I say, I don't pretendto understand the man.
(48:03):
I never tried to.
But I knew just from the interactionsI've had with him that if if I
tried I'd drive myself insane.
There, there's no understandingpeople like that these creative
types, and he was a very intense man.
There's no understanding them.
It's a matter of whether or notyou're going to get on with them.
And I will say, as far as my dandy wasconcerned, once he formed a friendship
(48:28):
with you, unless you really wronged him.
He was your friend.
And he was my friend.
He was a true friend.
We had our ups and ourdowns, but he was loyal.
But he expected loyalty in return.
But that is the formulaof friendship, of course.
that's reasonable.
Yes,
I have enjoyed speaking with you so much.
I have three questions that are in my headthat I just want to put them out there.
(48:52):
And the first one is.
As I was preparing for our conversation,there was some some information
that I was reading about London.
I read something in your time that therewere as many as eight, possibly 80,
000 prostitutes working at the time.
And I ran across a term andthe term was a badger game.
(49:16):
What's a badger game?
I can tell you what the BadgerGame is because I played it.
It's funny you mention it.
Well, not funny, but I mean, Oh,it's a wonder to me that you would.
But I compliment your research, Tony.
You are very thorough.
The Badger Game Was the process ofusing a young girl such as myself,
(49:36):
sometimes a young boy, depending on thetype of people you're trying to hook
that would attract a man with money.
You would then and I did this whenI was younger until top actually
loaned me out to men for sex.
My job was to lure men, looking like aninnocent, pretty little young thing, who
(49:56):
was interested in having sex with them.
You understand?
Because many men are, and it is adisgusting thing to think about, but
many men are into that sort of thing.
to, uh, claiming underage girls.
, they're turned on by it.
And it's awful, but it's true.
So I would pretend to be interested andlead them to a sequestered location.
(50:17):
Top would be hiding close by,such as in the cupboard or
behind the door or something.
And the moment that this man confirmedthat's what he wanted, Top would leap out
from where he was hiding and claim to bemy father and claim to, I shall expose
you and tell the world what you are.
I will ruin you, sir, unless yougive me what I want, you foul thing.
(50:42):
And, of course, that the man inquestion would be on his knees begging
to not be exposed because it wouldend his family, his career, his social
standing, and of course you mustrealize, in my time, that is everything.
Yeah.
If you lose that, youmight as well be dead.
Your position in society iswhat makes you, and you have
to fight like hell to keep it.
(51:03):
And so the man would eventuallyfound her and say, I should give you
anything you like, and of course we'dextort him for all the money he had.
And his watch and some otherthings that he'd be willing to give
us that we could pawn and sell.
And and that was the badger game.
And that is the game that I played, and Isaw it as a game, because Top again, very,
a very manipulative man, who said, The menwho hurt you , we can't get actual revenge
(51:29):
on them, but wouldn't it be nice, Ruby, toget revenge on as many men as you could?
And I'd be there to defend you, and theywouldn't hurt you, but we could embarrass
them, and we could get money off them.
And, of course, having been abused asI was, I thought, Well, if you'll keep
me safe, I'd love to play that game.
Oh, yes, I want to embarrass them.
I want to ruin them.
(51:49):
And that was my introductionto the world of whoredom.
That is the badger game.
That is much easier thanworking for the money.
Well, it, well, yes, I, you are correct.
You are correct, and I shall letthat comment slide, given that
you're so pleasant to talk to.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And I mean, it just seems like,oh, geez, everything about that
(52:12):
life was just so dark and just,it's, it really is incredible.
All right.
My last two questions.
And the question was if you could describeDickens, your friend in Just a few words.
What would you, howwould you describe him?
A sentence?
A flawed man, but a good man.
And the last one is, whatwould those words be for you?
(52:35):
To describe myself?
Oh.
She was never a lady, buther heart remained pure.
And we'll leave it at that.
Is there anything, any advice that you'dleave behind for future generations?
Anything you'd like to say to the women?
Anything at all you'd like tosay before we wrap this up?
Yes, I would, and I thank you for asking.
(52:56):
I would say to any other women,particularly young girls, or anyone that
finds themselves in circumstances suchas I was in thankfully, through programs
such as Dickens was able to create.
I do hope that whereyou live, there is help.
Don't take no for an answer.
(53:16):
Fight like hell to get it.
Be safe, but do what you can.
And above all, always, nomatter what happens in your
life, it is not your fault.
Remember that.
Hold on to it.
Believe it, because it will save you.
Ultimately, it is never your fault.
And I would add to that.
Something that I have alwayssaid being someone who sews,
(53:40):
sleeves are a lot like life.
They're hard to get right the first time.
And I hope that everyone listeningwill have as many chances as I have.
Because heaven knows, if we womendon't support one another, who will?
Beautifully said.
Thank you, Ruby, for your time today.
It has been an absolute pleasure.
(54:00):
Oh, you're very welcome.
My pleasure as well.
It's hard to know which partsof Ruby's story are true.
Just like her friend, Charles Dickens,who was able to capture the minds of his
audience by spinning a fascinating tale.
. Ruby may have possessed that same talent.
But what we do know for sure isthat at this time in London, there
were many girls who were victimizedin this way at a young age.
(54:23):
We also know that every person that Rubymentioned in the story was a real person.
Urania cottage was also a real place.
As was its affiliation withCharles Dickens, which is
still hard for me to believe.
And we know that Ruby Wallerwas a resident with records of
completing the one year requirement.
Including going to Australia.
And finally, although Dickens wrote almostnothing about Ruby specifically, there
(54:47):
was one entry in one of his writingswhere he was describing Ruby's stepfather.
It only said a few words.
Stepfather bad.
Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that.
When you tell a friend about thecalling history podcast, somewhere
in Costa Rica, a sloths hosts, aspeed dating event, I'm Tony Dean.
(55:08):
And until next time.
Um, history.
Welcome back to part two of Ruby Waller.
In the last episode, Ruby told usabout her terrible stepfather, her
first encounter with Charles Dickensand how she met the doctor that
would eventually become her husband.
In this next episode, she's going totalk in detail about Urania cottage.
What a Badger game is.
And what happened when Rubymet Charles Dickens later in
(00:49):
life, when he was an old man.
there was one night ismy husband close by?
I'm just looking.
Oh, no, he's in hispractice, so his door's shut.
Well, I should tell you I'll justturn my chair around and face
the fire so he can't hear me.
But there was one night beforeI, , before I was, I found myself
in the Thames and was in, in theprison where I met Joe, that Dickens
(01:10):
and I had gone back to the rookery.
And we'd had a, we'd knocked backquite a few gins, and I'd had it by
this point of who this dandy was,and why was he always picking me up,
and why was he always just talking.
As I said, I was an idiot.
I should have just been gratefulthat he didn't want to hurt me.
And after a few drinks,I straddled his lap.
(01:32):
And I kissed him full on, becausemind you, he wouldn't touch me.
I kissed him full on, and we wereforehead to forehead, and I basically
said to him, Stop pretending.
You think you're a littlegentleman, don't you?
You really think you can pull itoff, but secretly you'd love to
know what it's like to just runaway, and let go, and be one of us.
(01:53):
You'd never admit it, but you'redying to try it, ain't you?
Oh, and the look on his face,I knew I'd gotten to him then.
And I grabbed his hand and Isaid, let's see how brave you are.
And I brought him to the second floor.
And up there they had a bit of a, Isuppose you'd word use the word orgy.
Do they still use that word where you are?
Um, Oh, very good.
(02:15):
And that's what it was.
And these poor girls were with theirclients and there was drink all over.
And.
puke and sweat and girls who were sodrunk and had various fluids all over
their dresses that the dresses were nolonger one color because the dye on these
beautiful silk gowns had been ruined.
(02:36):
By all of this and one girl that weencountered, , she was so ready to
pass out that the men were mixingwater and gin and mustard powder and
they were forcing it down her throatand then she would puke and pass out
again and they thought it was grand.
And I brought him up, I brought thisdandy up because I wanted to see just
how far he was gonna go and he lookedaround as if he'd seen this before.
(02:59):
He wasn't shocked.
And then a great big, man came over andshoved his girl into Dickens arms and
he was trying to grab me and he toldhim, he said, here, you have a go with
this one, she's nice and tight, wouldyou say I have a go with yours and and
Dickens, I will give him credit, hedefended me like a true knight of old.
He clocked that man, knocked him overand then we both ran out of the room
(03:23):
and wouldn't admit that he had fun.
And I was still chiding him, going, You,you know how to handle your fives well.
Come on, let's go back in and do it again.
And he threw me up againstthe wall, and he kissed me.
That was the first andonly time our lips touched.
And he said, If you think I am alowly choir boy, you are mistaken.
And I said, Prove it.
(03:43):
And he said, Take me somewhere where I cantalk to you, and I'll tell you everything.
I'll answer all your questions.
And I told him it would cost him.
And he looked at me and hesaid, Name your price, woman.
And that night we spent in a room thathe rented and, oh lord, we got so drunk.
But he got more drunk than I did.
And he'd made the punch.
He was a marvellous makerat Gin Punch, I must say.
(04:05):
And while he was out cold,I took his clothes off him.
because I know a bit about doingthis, about stealing from men.
And that's when I got a goodlook at his watch chain.
And I have to tell you, Tony, there wassomething singular the little pendant
that was hanging down off of his watchchain looked like a knight's shield.
(04:27):
You know, that, that shape and itwas a stone a beautiful swirly
green stone that, which I have nowfound out it was called malachite.
And I've flipped it over.
And it said to CD from,it was something like MGH.
the first initial was Mand the last one was H.
(04:49):
And it had a date on it.
And I thought, who thehell is M something H?
Because it wasn't his wife.
I knew his wife's name was Catherine.
So when he woke up, I'd puta shawl to him because I knew
he'd be cold when he woke up.
He woke up to me, sitting triumphantlyon a pile of his folded clothes,
with a pair of scissors in me hand,looking at him, saying, alright,
(05:12):
I savoured out, who are you?
C.
D.
What's that mean?
And he finally told me who he wasand that he wanted to save me.
In a way, and I didn't really believehim, but it said CD on the watch pendant,
and I thought, oh, God, that must be him.
I'm talking to Charles Dickens, naked, ina room, and I'm sitting on his clothes,
(05:35):
with a pair of scissors in my hand, andall he's got to hide his manhood is a
ratty old shawl that I've given him.
Ha!
another Tuesday.
Just another day.
That's right.
That's right.
And he said, meet me in a few days.
I'll explain everything.
I promise you I'm not trying to hurt you.
And I was never able to get to thatappointment where I knew he would
(05:57):
have explained everything about Uraniabecause I was assaulted in the alleyway.
And I tumbled into the Thames tosee, you see how that progressed yes.
And so, the second time I met him in theprison, that's when it really hit me.
But, God damn it's him,it's Charles Dickens.
I know who he is, he's the mostfamous writer in the world.
He's talking to me!
(06:17):
Wait, who, wait, who is MGH on the watch?
ah, well, , that comes in later.
That's his sister in law, Mary Hogarth,who had died at the tender age of 17.
I found out, not through him henever talked about her, but I
found out through another party,that , they'd been very close.
(06:40):
And that there were some who consideredthat perhaps, shall we say, to put it
delicately, that he had married thewrong sister, if you take my meaning.
Wow.
But she had been living with themto help manage the household and he
considered her just an angelic creature.
And they were very good friendsand she supported his work.
And remember, he was just starting out inthe late thirties becoming famous then.
(07:04):
And , I'm sure he needed allthe support he could get.
That's quite a bit of pressure whenyou're becoming famous, I would assume.
For sure.
she died of a heart ailment, I havebeen led to believe, although I cannot
confirm, but she died in his arms.
And of course, Mrs.
Dickens was so upsetthat she lost her baby.
She'd been pregnant at the time.
(07:25):
It was just an awful period for them.
And I've never known, but I would guess,that perhaps saving young girls, in a
way, in his mind, maybe he's saving girlswho had just as much potential as Mary.
And of course, she, She was a veryrespectable girl, but she was robbed
of her life as well, and he couldn'tgive her life back, and maybe through
(07:48):
us he could Somehow achieve that, Idon't know, and at the same time help,
help people who really needed it.
Because nobody else gave a damnabout it, I can tell you that.
, . He did more with his pen and his stories.
And his nightly walks aroundLondon than some of the MPs and
the Lords in Parliament sittingon the backsides ever did.
(08:11):
For the common man,and I'll stand by that.
Well, no, I, and rightfully so.
Okay.
So you're in prison now
and you meet Charles Dickens andso, and he takes you to Urania
Well, he didn't take me himself.
I had to My foot was still verygouty, and I was still weak.
So , Dr.
Wilkins who we now call Joe, my husband,said I wasn't to be moved just yet.
(08:36):
He wanted me in what did he say?
Ship shape in Bristol fashion.
I guess it's a sailor'sexclamation, but he wanted me in
Bristol fashion before I left.
And of course, as a doctor,that was his responsibility.
You're not leaving until you're healthy.
And that's that.
But he visited me every day andDickens visited me regularly,
even gave me a lovely dress andtold me all about the place.
So I knew what to expect when I got there.
(08:58):
And I knew that the lady who was goingto collect me from the prison to take
me to Urania Cottage was the new matron.
And so I'd been told all about Mrs.
Holdsworth, who was an older womanand very matronly, I was told.
And she would collectme in a handsome cab.
And take me to Shepherd's Bush, whereUrania Cottage was waiting to receive me.
(09:23):
And I was part of suffice to say virtuallythe first cohort, or the first class of
girls to begin this experimental project.
program of reform we we're calling itbut the whole idea appealed to me in
certain respects because , yes, we calledit reform and the only reform that,
(09:43):
that I had heard of was in places likethe Magdalene and other places where
it, reform, it was all drudgery andyou're a miserable sinner and repent
of your wicked ways and all that.
the way Dickens had designedthis was quite revolutionary.
He thought reform should not be drudgery.
If you're going to help someone changetheir life, why can't they have a bit of
(10:04):
fun and colour while they're doing it?
So, we were to wear bright colours, andhe chose fabrics himself for us to make
dresses out of, and made sure that wehad clothes that were lovely to wear.
Not ostentatious, mind you, no silksbut we were looking lovely, like ladies.
And
So, just colorful dresses.
You're not dressed inall black or anything.
(10:25):
Oh, no, we couldn't, wouldn't be anyway,black is expensive, no, none of that.
None of that at all.
And we was taught how to cook, to read,to write to do maths and to count, and
such, and manage household accounts,because it is the ladies of the household.
that do that.
It's not the men.
They're off doing whatever they do.
(10:46):
And to manage a house, as I saidand to make soup for the poor
out of what was left over from ameal, so that nothing was wasted.
We had to attend schooling every day,and this was all done inside the cottage.
And on Sundays, we did goto church with chaperones.
That was not point to be argued about.
You went.
(11:07):
Whether you wanted to or not, and therewas no swearing, you were not allowed
to be dirty, you washed every day.
We had little gardens out back totend to, so we learned about that.
We even had access tomusic and could sing.
And my favorite aspect of being there wasthat we had a little friend in the parlor.
In fact, he was the only gentlemanallowed at Urania Cottage.
(11:30):
, I called him Rex, and he was a brightlittle canary, and he was adorable.
And so we took turns cooing overhim and we would feed him crumbs.
But we always laughed and saidhe was the only man allowed in.
And so we had a little bird to carefor as well, but again, it's nice
for a lot of these girls, and theywere much worse off than I was.
(11:50):
Remember, I had, at least I had a warmroof over my head, and they didn't.
They were more hardened street rats,you might say, . And I was pretty
hard, but I wasn't that tough.
But I was tough in mind.
If not in body.
And we didn't all get along, butwe were able to come to an amiable
(12:11):
accord, because we all knew thatit was either this or go back out
there, and none of us wanted that.
So there were scrapes andscraps, but we got the job done.
Well, this sounds like a wonderful place.
Whether you came from the streets or not.
I mean, it sounds likeyou have everything.
You've got school, you've got church.
(12:31):
It sounds really difficult, though, toput all these different personalities
in the same place because these wouldbe tough people, as you're describing,
that are thinking that everybody has anulterior motive and it's not their best
interest and they're trying to survive andthinking what they can get out of this.
, did people steal?
Did people get kicked out of the cottage?
Oh yes.
Well, there was one particular girl,Marianne, who I never got along with.
(12:55):
And of course she had it in for methere was no love lost between us.
She was a bitch to me from the beginning.
I'd come in and . girls greeted me theyrose and curtsied, because that's what
the other matron Miss Fisher, toldthem to do, and I curtsied to them,
and invited me to sit down with them.
Well, there, there was abolt of fabric on a chair.
(13:17):
And I asked Marianne, because she wasclosest, if she could move it for me and
she didn't want to, and then it was puton the table, and then I further asked
her because it was next to her now, andI said, might I see that bolt of fabric?
And she said, you could see it,, from where you are, well enough.
And I thought, well, I could either poundher into the floor, or I can try and
(13:38):
impress these ladies and use my manners.
So I thought to myself,maybe if I say please?
And I said, may I pleasesee that bolt of fabric?
And I'm thinking to myself, before Ibludgeon your goddamn face with it And
then she just tossed it my way and itlanded on the table with a thud and
later that night I found that all thesepretty dresses and things that we were
(14:02):
wearing along with all of the silverwareand such was all locked away at night.
And the clothes that we wore, the dresses,were locked in a cupboard at night.
So that we couldn't steal anythingin the middle of the night and
run off with it and sell it.
, Dickens had thought of that.
He realized that some of the girlshere would try and abuse the privilege.
And I was sharing a room with one ofthe girls on my first night there.
(14:25):
We all shared rooms.
Nobody was on their own.
And actually it was quite nice becausethen you'd have someone to And And she
took , one of my shoes off the floor andshe was basically accusing me of sleeping
with Dickens in order to get in becauseI was so small and clearly not a street
whore that I must have serviced him inorder to gain a place, that I was his new
(14:50):
little pet, that he was keeping me there.
And she was licking the toeof the boot, you know, as if
she was giving someone a head.
And calling me a slut.
And again I just, I thoughtto myself I could pound you
into the floor if I wanted to.
But if, I know if I dothat, I'll be tossed out.
And you know that if I dothat, I'll be tossed out.
So she was really getting under my skin.
(15:11):
But I got my revenge on herbecause she eventually messed up.
And I did end up getting her thrown out.
Which I'm quite proud of, actually.
. I'm wondering right now if there aremen that found themselves in this
situation, maybe they were workingat the facility or, , somebody that
maybe Dickens thought could be trusted,but ended up taking advantage of the
(15:32):
situation because he would have seenthere's a whole bunch of prostitutes
in this room , that can't talk back.
Were there situations like thatwhere somebody came in and took
advantage of what was happening there?
Maybe, , it just didn'tgo as planned in that way?
No, for the very plain reason that. There were no male staff whatsoever.
There was no man who'd come into clean the carpets or, , no
chimney sweep, no nothing.
It was all girls.
(15:53):
And the only man who ever visited was Mr.
Dickens.
He would come insometimes to have a chat.
And we, of course, we'd make tea.
tea and serve it in the parlor and hewould sit with us and again he always
treated us like people which we weren'tused to even those of us who thought
we had it well you know it was onlyuntil I met people like Dandy as I call
(16:13):
him it's foreign to me to call him Mr.
Dickens but so I should call himDandy and Joe That I really understood
what it was like to be a person andnot an object or a hole to play in.
And so he comes sometimes and then ofcourse Joe did call once and only once and
that was towards the end of my time there.
(16:34):
And I didn't see him again untilI met him again , in Australia.
When my ship come in, but there wereno men there the only time that
we had interactions with men wouldbe at church, but of course we were
chaperoned but it was good practicefor us to interact with respectable men.
And of course a lot of the men that,that had come to us for servicing
(16:56):
thought themselves respectable andeveryone else thought they were
respectable, but they were actually,, dogs in gentleman's clothing.
Yes, absolute scoundrelsindeed, sir, which is quite
the insult where I come from.
A man would challenge you to a duel,sir, if you were to call him a scoundrel
in public, or even call him a fellow.
That was, oh, that wasgrounds for punishment.
A fellow is
(17:16):
Yes indeed.
Oh it can be, it could be a evenas bad as calling one a scoundrel.
It might be challengedto a dual with pistols
How would you call somebodya fellow in your time?
Like I know how to , call somebodya scoundrel, but I don't, know
how to use fellow in a sentence.
well, fellow can be a familiarterm, but it can also be an insult.
So you would know based uponwho was saying it to you.
(17:37):
the English language isa funny thing, isn't it?
One word can mean many differentthings just like, hang out.
Dickens uses it in Pickwick.
Someone says to Pickwick, I saythere, where do you hang out?
Well, of course, hanging out,it means Where do you reside?
Where do you frequent?
But it can also mean, , you'rehanging your wash out to dry.
(17:58):
It's hang out.
So the English language is a funny thing.
Dickens was responsible fora lot of words like that.
Wasn't he?
Oh, yes, indeed.
, he talks about Scrooge was, I dolove this line, Scrooge was not
in the habit of cracking jokes,nor was he by any means waggish.
That's one of my favoritesthat he wrote, cracking jokes.
They say that.
Where you are.
(18:19):
they definitely do.
They
Oh, marvelous.
I love, oh, that's one of my favorites.
I love that.
I'll tell you where I'll tell youwhere I'm stuck right now is that
you said something a minute ago.
I can't get it out of my head.
You mentioned it earlier and youmentioned it now, and this one,
you just casually said, Oh, Imet him when I was in Australia.
Why again, are you in Australia?
Oh, because that was partof Dickens brilliant plan.
(18:41):
So we would be in the cottage andwe were for one year and all of our
lessons and all the things that welearn, , we were graded on, you might say.
We got marks.
And at the end of our timethere, the marks translated into.
money.
And that was the, that was the moneythat, that, that paid for our fare.
(19:03):
And all of this money was donated byMiss Angela Burdett Cootes, who was
the heir to the Cootes banking fortune.
And she was the benefactressof Dickens brilliant plan.
And so it was all paid for.
And we went with chaperonesin small groups on ships to
Port Adelaide, Australia.
Where we're met by the clergy andrespectable people who would put us
(19:26):
in respectable lodgings, help us findrespectable jobs, and introduce us to
respectable men who we could then marry.
Which, and I, not being themarrying kind myself, I say that
ironically now, of course, yeah.
Never entered my mind to marry anyone.
Because of whatever happened to my mother,I thought, no, I shall never marry.
(19:48):
No man shall ever use me that way.
In fact, I remember saying toDickens it's better to be a
hired hand than an unpaid slave.
And that's how I viewed the institutionof marriage at that point in my life.
It was only after I met Joe that I evenconsidered But we went to Australia and
then the idea behind all of this planof uranium cottage was to turn us into
(20:11):
respectable women who were attractiveto a good, decent man who would want
to take one of us as their lawful.
Wife and treat us with respect and loveand protect us and all those things that
men promise they're gonna do when theymarry her and then they never do it To
let us back out into society in Londonwould have been disastrous because most of
(20:36):
the men in high scale London, as they callit, society, they were mostly our clients.
So they would have known us.
So that would have been disastrous usto, turn out as a soiree or something.
And they'd know us and thenwe'd, the game would be up.
So
that
makes complete sense.
So he sends you to Australiawhere nobody knows who you are.
(20:56):
And it is literally a fresh startafter your, , might you call this
wife training at Urania house?
it.
Indeed.
Yes.
And again I don't know the sentimentsof women where you are on the
other end of this marvelous device,but it, is the thing to do here.
You, a woman marries not only forhopefully for love, although not
(21:20):
always, but also for financial securitybecause there are so few options.
for women as we've beentalking about all along.
And so, that was part of the plan.
And I thank God that I was able to gothrough the term that I spent at Urania.
And , it didn't turn out the waythat Dickens envisioned it would, as
(21:44):
far as I was concerned, but throughA series of circumstances connected
to Urania, I did meet a good, decentman, who is the love of my life.
But did you meet Joe in Australia?
Well, I shall explain, because Ididn't explain it very well, did I?
I'm sorry, dear.
(22:05):
It's been a great while since I'vethought about any of this, and I am, Joe
teases me, he says, Well, dear, you areover 40 now, so you're losing it a bit.
Of course, I just, , slap himon the back of the head, and
then he pulls me in for a kiss.
But I I met him again in Australia becausehe knew that was where I had to go.
He was my greatest advocate.
(22:27):
He believed in me.
He said, I want you to gothrough the whole program.
Go through all of it because if you don't,my darling, you will kick yourself later.
Do this for yourself so that youcan look back and say, I did it.
And I did it for me.
So I did, I finished the program.
Although I wasn't there the whole time.
And if you do want to talk aboutit, I'm than happy to tell you.
(22:50):
But when I got there,he was waiting for me.
But what happened in between that timeis a story you might like to hear.
Yes, please.
Oh, very good.
Well, I shall tell you then.
Well, it is nice, I should say, talkingto a, to another man who, you seem very
kind, and I'm sorry, Joe's with a patient.
He'd probably like to meet you.
He would at least be marvel at thisthing in my hand, and it is rather
(23:14):
bright light, but I kind of like it.
So, Joe.
And you can hear me all right, can you?
I don't have to speak up.
Oh, no, absolutely can hear you perfectly.
Like I'm standing next to
Oh, I wish you were.
I'd invite you over for tea.
, I'm a very good baker.
You're missing out on my spice
I do feel like I'm missing out, butto be quite honest with you, after
(23:35):
we got done with the baked goods, I'dstill want to go to the djinn palace.
Yeah,
Well, speaking of unnatural thingsor sort of strange things, what
happened next after I arrivedat Urania was very strange.
(23:55):
Through a series of circumstances,Dickens come over one day and
he asked me if I would make adress for one of his daughters.
Because I knew I was quite agood seamstress in my own right.
And I said, well, I don't thinkyou want to bring her here.
I think your wife will haveyour head if you bring her into
a place of, , retired paws.
(24:18):
And and he said, well,no, you come to my house.
And I thought, well, now Iknow you've really lost it.
You've lost the plot, Dickens.
You can't bring me over to your house.
And he said, it's my house.
And yes, I can.
And what's for?
My wife is for it.
She wants to meet you.
I just about fell over and and I said,well, as you say, sir, as you say.
(24:38):
So a cab picked me up and took me the nextday and I walked in and there was Mrs.
Dickens, a very kind lady,beautiful, heavy lidded eyes,
so kind and intelligent.
There was a fire behind thoseeyes and she had tea ready for me.
Isn't that nice?
Someone of my.
(24:59):
situation, and here this, thewife of the greatest author of our
age wanted to have tea with me.
I thought that spoke verywell of her character.
So we sat and had tea, but I noticedthat she was looking at me a bit funny,
and I thought that was just from,she's just trying to not judge me.
She's trying to be a lady and bekind and be a charitable Christian.
(25:19):
But it wasn't pity.
But she was looking at me asif, the only way I can describe
it is as if she saw a ghost.
But she was very kind.
And we talked for a bit, and thenin ran her little daughter Katie,
who was full of fire, absolutelyfull of fire, intelligent, charming,
witty, beautiful little creature.
(25:40):
And I was to make a dress for her.
So we was we was left alone.
And I worked my magic on her, andand she did think it was magic.
And we were talking as girls do, about,, stories and fairy tales and things.
And and I told her thatmy nickname was Lilac.
And she said, You're theLilac Fairy, aren't you?
(26:01):
My father told me about you.
Well, he had told his children that he hadmet someone who was very nice, but instead
of telling them that he was talking toa prostitute, he used my nickname, Lilac
, because I was very little, he described meas a fairy, with beautiful wings, you see.
And so she said, Oh,you're the Lilac Fairy.
And I was taken a bit aback,because I thought, why is he
(26:22):
telling his children about me?
But then I realized hewas just telling stories.
he's a storyteller.
Yeah, you're just a
character in one of his kid's stories.
Of course as of course anyone wouldbe yes, yes and so, we talked a bit
more, and then she told me, you know,you do look a lot like Aunty Mary.
(26:42):
She died a long time ago,
oh,
and we
like Mary from the watch.
exactly, Mary Hogarth.
And that made my blood runcold, and I thought, that
bastard, what's he up to now?
Is that really why he's bringing me here?
It can't be, it can't be, he's so,I wouldn't call him a good man, but
(27:03):
I'd call him a great man, and I wasabsolutely flustered and I thought,
I can't lose it in front of thischild, it's got nothing to do with
her, so I told her that I didn't needher anymore for measurements, I told
her to run along and get her supper.
And I went to where his office was andI confronted him about it and he still
would not talk about her and he wasupset that I would even say her name.
(27:26):
He was quite offended that I thoughtthat's why he was interested in me.
That he was secretly in love with her,and I looked like her, so he was, well,
I think you can, I think you can guessmy meaning, and I started to undress
to see what his reaction would be.
I went right back into that placeof a wounded young girl, I'll use
(27:47):
you for everything you can get.
You see where my mind went with that?
I'm not ashamed of anythingI've ever done, because I lived.
I'm still here, so make no mistake aboutthat, but I do regret my actions hurt
him, because he never meant to hurt me.
It was happenstance who I looked like,but he really did want to help me.
(28:07):
And I ran out with only mycorsets on really I hadn't
bothered to put my dress back on.
And I was able to remember Dr.
Wilkins address off of MarchmontStreet, was Crescent Lane.
And he had a house there.
He had rooms there.
And I ran there.
When you're a girl like me,you know London very well.
(28:29):
And I was good at running in the dark.
And I found his place and I bangedon the door for all it was worth.
And all I saw at first wasa light, like a lantern.
And it came down, and there he was, andhe looked at me, and he was, it was like
he was looking at the return of Christ,he was so shocked, and he said, Ruby.
And I said, may I come in, Dr.
(28:50):
Wilkins, please?
I was shivering.
I was absolutely shivering, and he broughtme in, and he took care of me, and I
stayed with him for about a week, and hekept telling me, you've got to go back.
You can't live here.
It's not respectable.
You've got to go back and I knew hecared for me deeply and I was Realizing
how much I cared for him and weargued I didn't want to go back But
(29:13):
he had work to attend to so he wasout at a local workhouse tending to
his patients And I thought, well I'llmake it up to him, I'll go apologise.
There was a basket of knitted goods,mittens and hats and shawls and things
that had been donated for the poor.
(29:34):
And I thought, I'll bring them tohim and he can distribute them to
the poor and I'll apologise faceto face for arguing with him.
And when I got into the cab,it stopped a few streets away.
In a quiet, little not an alleyway, butit was large enough to put a coach in.
(29:57):
And, I heard boots hit the cobbles,and then I heard a voice I hadn't
heard in a long time, and thedoor opened, and it was Top.
He'd found me.
He'd been looking for me all that time.
And it was only by me runningthrough the streets of London in my
petticoats that an informant found me.
(30:17):
Had said, I know where she is.
And he was trying to kill me.
I mean, the look, Tony,the look in his eye.
He had me pinned against the cobbles.
He was gonna kill me.
And I couldn't calm him down.
I tried to.
I said, I'll go anywhere with you.
I was, I'm so sorry that I left you.
I was such a fool.
You're the only one that's ever loved me.
You know, I said anything Icould think of to calm him down.
(30:40):
And I said, Then Dickens showed up.
Of all things, I mean, you couldn't, hecouldn't write this in one of his novels.
He had a pistol in his hand.
He had a lantern.
There was another young man in hisemploy with him, who also had been
watching me, to make sure I was safe.
And he addressed Top as if he were thefinest gentleman on earth, and he said,
(31:04):
If you wish to take her somewhere,sir, and she wishes to go with you,
I will pay for the tickets myself.
I concede, sir.
You win, she is yours.
So he was playing along.
Very good actor.
we were both trying to keep Top calm.
And then finally, I realized thatit wasn't going to work, and if
I didn't act now, I was going tobe dead in another ten seconds.
(31:27):
And I plunged my thumbs into his eyes,and I blinded him, and that's the only
way I was able to get out from him.
And I ran towards Dickens, and thenI heard the crack of a gunshot, my
arm was on fire, and I passed out.
And the next time I woke up,I was in another hospital bed.
This time at the workhouse downthe street, and Joe was there.
(31:51):
And after that, I went back to Urania,I finished the program, I got onto the
ship, recovered, ready for a new life,and as we had planned, Joe met me in
Australia, and from there we were married,and we went to Boston for a while.
And then we came back here to England,and I hadn't seen Dickens in years, until
(32:17):
Oh, it was in Mechanics Hall in Boston,and Dickens was performing, so I guess
he was getting his acting in after all.
And he was performing one manperformances of the greatest,
most popular scenes in his novels.
And it was a wonder.
(32:37):
He did it here in Englandand in Wales and etc.
And then he went over to America, andit was his second visit to America.
, I'd learned he'd also gonein the 40s when he was young.
But this time he went to perform.
And he was a one man wonder.
All his shows were selling out.
(32:58):
And Joe and I decidedwe'll go and see him.
We won't bother him, but Ijust wanted to see him again.
The man who had saved me.
And we sat very close to the front row.
And I should tell you, , Dickensprobably wouldn't want me telling
anybody this, but I will anyway.
We were seeing him performon the second floor of this
newly finished mechanics hall.
(33:20):
A great big building, beautiful buildingand ideal for performances and such.
The first floor had been usedthat same day for a poultry show.
So there was, , hundreds ofthousands of chickens down there,
Very
exciting show.
indeed, yes, and the and the lights wereoff, the lamps were off down there to
(33:44):
keep them quiet so that they would sleep.
The moment that they turned the gas lightsup on the stage, just before Dickens.
Took the stage to begin his performance.
There were cracks, slight cracks in thefloorboards, and some of that light crept
through, and after about ten seconds,it was and that's all you could hear,
(34:10):
and clucks and bucks, and everyone wasthinking, my God, we'll never hear him.
How was he going to projectover such a ruckus with that?
Thankfully, finally they died down andthey must have gone back to sleep or
people went down there and I don't knowwhat they covered the cages or something.
And we were able to hear him.
And although that was a very humorousmoment that I shall never forget, it
(34:32):
was quickly followed by the shock of mylife because the man on the stage was
not the man I had said goodbye to in,in in Shepherd's Bush when I had left
Gerania Cottage all those years back.
It was an old man, his beautiful hairwhich was now grizzled, he was partially
(34:56):
bald, he had whiskers, great big whiskersthat were quite grizzly, and all of his
hair was sort of swept forward on hishead and his beard was swept forward,
it was as if when he turned sideways itwas as if this great wind was sweeping
him from the back pushing him forward.
He looked thinner than he had.
(35:16):
And so tired at lines that wereetched, carved, in his face.
And the lights were stillbright behind his eyes.
But there was something gone.
I thought, my God, he looks so tired,but his performance was brilliant.
You'd never know.
I mean, he put every bitof himself into them.
He did a Christmas carol.
(35:37):
. And, of course, we all wept at Tiny Tim'sdeath, and we all rejoiced at Scrooge's
redemption, and he really did become thecharacters with his body and his voice
and the way he would scrunch up his face.
It was brilliant.
I'd never seen anything like it.
And then he did.
Oh, he was, absolutely, but my heart sank.
Looking at him and I rememberwhispering to Joe and I said
(35:59):
he's ill and Joe said yes he is.
Didn't need to be a doctor to lookat him and know that he was ill.
Little did I know he was dying.
And
has he passed along inyour time right now?
oh yes, he's been deadfor some months now.
He died back in, in June.
In fact, I was able to pay my respectsat Westminster Abbey where he is buried.
(36:21):
What is the year in your time?
Oh, it is the year 1870,,and he died in June.
, I saw him a few days beforehis death, which was June 9th.
I saw him a few days beforehand.
He was along the side of theroad in Rochester, which is
in Kent the Garden of England.
Beautiful place.
(36:42):
And he was sitting on a stone wall andI had no idea that it was him, but I saw
and I thought it was an old man who'dtripped because he was holding his leg.
And I was walking along you know,we British love a good walk.
And I went to him and Ithought, do you need help?
And he said, He turnedaround and it was him.
(37:03):
I knew it was him.
And he looked at me, and at firsthe looked elated and then his face
sank as if he thought, my God,what are you doing back in England?
, you were supposed to be in Australia.
Oh, he thought something went wrong.
He thought something went wrong.
And I assured him that nothing had,and I helped him to the nearest pub.
They knew him there.
He'd been living inthe area for some time.
(37:23):
He'd , bought a house and they knew him.
He'd often send for drinkand they would have it.
Delivered, of course, when he wasentertaining friends and such.
And I bought him a brandy.
That was his favorite.
Also Madeira, but thistime he ordered brandy.
And Joe came in he'd been close behind.
He'd been finishing up with apatient, but he caught up with us.
(37:45):
And we talked and he could see that Iwas happy and that I had married Joe.
And he was very happy for us, but Icould tell . He was still a bit sad
that I'd come back, but I assuredhim I'm out here in the country,
nobody knows us, everything's fine.
Joe and I are very happy, we have nochildren, but we feel truly blessed.
And it's due to you, so thank you.
(38:05):
And I was able to thank him, face to face.
And he said, well you must come andvisit me at Gad's Hill, which was the
name of the house that he'd bought.
And I found out, he'd seen that housemany times as a young one with his
father when they'd gone on long walks.
And his father had said to him,if you work hard, one day you
(38:27):
might own a house like that.
And wouldn't you know, when he grewup, he bought and he lived in it.
At least he made some dreamscome true for himself.
Well, and a lot ofother people, obviously.
Yes, amen to
I find it so interesting that when he seesyou, the first thing that he doesn't think
is, Oh my gosh, it's good to see you.
Or, , jump up and hug you.
(38:48):
The first thought is he comesback to that moment where he's
probably all the time that you'vebeen out of his view, he's been
thinking, I hope she's okay.
And
then when he, and maybe even thinking,as long as I never see her, She's okay.
And then he sees you andsays, Oh no, I failed.
Like he cared that much with everythingelse that was going on in his brain and
(39:12):
doing everything that it took to buythis house that he saw when he was a kid.
He was still thinking, , are you okay?
Yes.
And that was part of his kindnessas a, not as a writer or not
as a famous man, but as a man.
, as the Bard of Avon said, , warts and all.
But , he did have a kindness to him.
He wasn't always kind.
(39:33):
I mean, he'd separated from his wifeat this point and had taken up with
some young girl who I met, actually.
So there is a little man in him still.
A little
Tony, I thought better of you.
Well,
I mean that in the best possible
I, I know, my dear, but, youknow, well, you're not wrong.
But he invited us when we weresitting in that pub to, to
(39:55):
call upon him at his house.
And he says, well, let's makeit the ninth the ninth of June.
And that's the day that we went is wewere expecting to perhaps stay with him
at least one day, if not more and he, wewere certainly welcome, he told us that.
And , as we approached the house, wesaw that there was a great fuss of
carriages and people coming in and out.
(40:16):
And immediately I thoughtsomething's wrong.
And so did Joe and we thoughtwe'd better investigate.
So we went in and I saw.
A woman grown, now, who Irecognized as the young girl I'd
made the dress for, it was Katie.
And she saw me, and she recognized me, andshe ran into my arms, and she was crying.
(40:36):
And , there was some other gentlementhere as well, and they informed us
that that my dear Dandy had a stroke.
And, it was not long for this world.
And so, I told Katie to be strong, andI let her cry on my shoulder for a bit.
And then she let go of me and sheushered me into the room where he was and
(40:58):
other members of his family were there.
And I would wager some of themperhaps were household staff.
And he was laid out on a beautifultype of couch, I believe in
French, it's a chaise lounge.
And he looked very peaceful.
He was sleeping.
His chest was still rising and falling,but I was allowed to go up to him.
(41:21):
I explained, I said Iknew this man personally.
I would like to say goodbye to him.
And Joe was there.
And I didn't realize I'd been squeezinghis hand so hard, but I let go and
I walked up and I knelt by Dickens.
And he didn't stir at all.
, if he knew my presence, Henever gave way that he did.
He was absolutely still.
And I took his hand in mine,and I said, Dandy it's lilac.
(41:43):
I've come for my gin.
And I said, Joe's here too.
Everyone's here.
And thank you.
And a single tear rolled down his cheek.
And then he was gone.
wow.
What a life.
It's a very precious moment for myself,and I think everyone else who was there.
What would your life havelooked like if you hadn't been
(42:06):
wandering the streets and just
bumped into this man,
. I wouldn't have lived too long, too muchlong after because I would've either run
away or the top would've gone crazy andkilled me or something would've happened.
I was far too reckless, and as I said,foolish, although I was not to blame.
I've never blamed myself formy situation when I was little.
But, as I've said before,the man saved my life.
(42:27):
He was both a sinner and a saint.
He was far from perfect.
None of us are perfect.
But
at having kids.
he was very perfect athaving children, yes.
Some even say he had one with thatyoung girl of his, and that it died.
Her name was , Ellen Ternan,they called her Nellie.
She's been an actress.
And I met her.
(42:48):
She was there.
, I saw her in the gardenafter it was all over.
She didn't come inside.
She was in the garden, beautiful roses.
And she was looking at them and ofcourse , she was in a State of shock.
She was very still but hands were shakingand she had that look And I know that
I know the look of shock in a woman'seyes and She's sort of mumbling a bit
(43:10):
about how he liked he'd like flowers.
He liked roses and then Shesaw me and she started to cry.
I think she thought that perhaps Iwas there to berate her or something
and I understood through what she wastelling me, I understood who she was.
I understand that typeof girl when I see one.
And I didn't judge her.
(43:31):
I thought, well, maybe she loved him.
Maybe she didn't.
That was none of my business.
Suffice to say she was thereand that's who she was.
And I thought to myself, my God, ifsomebody with my experience had come
across, Me, when I was your age, all Iwould have wanted was a bit of comfort and
encouragement, so that's what I gave her.
I told her, I said, look at me,and let me tell you who I am.
(43:54):
And I told her that I had oncebeen a hired hand, , a prostitute.
And I said, but the man whojust died in there, he saved me.
I said, I don't know what yoursituation is, but take it from me,
You don't let them get you down.
, you dry your eyes, and you hold yourhead high, because you are not to
(44:15):
blame whatever your situation is.
Not in this world.
Hold your head high, and whatever happens,you can always come and talk to me.
I gave her Jo's calling card.
And told her, you can always come tous, if you need to, you can always come
and talk to me, I will never judge you.
I knew him too.
(44:35):
I saw him at his worst,I saw him at his best.
And you've got a friend, if you want one.
. She never visited us, but I certainlyhope that she had a good life.
I hope that she was able tofind a man who, who loved her.
And and be happy.
Lord knows she deserved it.
Yeah.
If looking back at this time thatyou spent with your dandy, what do
(44:58):
you think his biggest flaw was?
Women.
Is that what it Is
biggest, flaw was that he didn'tknow a damn thing about us.
And I will say, Tony, most of you don't.
You don't know a damn thing about us.
Oh, believe me, we men, we know that.
We're
not sitting around thinkingwe know anything about women.
Alright, fine then.
What I fail to understand is whynone of you do a damn thing about it.
(45:20):
If you don't know anything aboutwomen, why don't you listen?
Why don't you talk to us andtry and really get to know us?
I'll give Dickens that credit.
He did.
But he was also doing it for thereason of creating this program.
But, and that is mybiggest regret as well.
Is that I didn't just sit down,as a friend and talk to him.
(45:41):
I kept running away from himwhenever I saw him early on.
And I wish that I'd just talked with him.
Instead of the banteringand the teasing that we had.
. How could you have, there's no way toknow if you can trust him after everybody
else is throwing you against walls and, throwing you into rivers and things.
I mean, there's just no way.
If I knew then what Iknow now, I would have.
(46:04):
And of course I didn't,but it's still a regret.
And, but he didn't knowanything about women, really.
And I can only guess.
I guess, though I don't know, becausehe never talked about his early life,
never, and I never pressed the subject.
He was more interested in talking about mychildhood, which I did finally tell him.
But I can only guess, based upon my ownlife experience, that something must
(46:28):
have happened to him when he was a boy.
Perhaps he went through a trauma of hisown, I've no idea if that's true or not,
but I would wager That it had somethingto do with his mother, because he had
a very strange way of regarding women.
Stranger than any man I've ever met.
(46:50):
Now, of course, it's still his choiceto regard women in whatever way.
But I would not be surprised, althoughI can't claim to know that something
must have happened to him in hisearly life that formed his view of
women or maybe he was rejected by alover when he was young or something.
I don't, you know, never got over it.
I've no idea, but I do know thatdespite his flaws and despite the
(47:14):
egregious way that he treated that saintwho was his wife he was a good man.
And that's the rub of it, isn't it?
That you can still be a goodperson, you can still care about
the people around you, and youcan still try to do good things.
And you can still be a horrible person.
The irony of you saying that hisbiggest flaw was women and yet he took
(47:40):
all these women whose lives were bleakand gray and just painted them with
beautiful colors and in fact, the safestplace in the world that they probably
could have been , would be near him.
And yet that would be his flaw is women.
Yes!
Isn't it?
It is very ironic.
And I say, I don't pretendto understand the man.
(48:03):
I never tried to.
But I knew just from the interactionsI've had with him that if if I
tried I'd drive myself insane.
There, there's no understandingpeople like that these creative
types, and he was a very intense man.
There's no understanding them.
It's a matter of whether or notyou're going to get on with them.
And I will say, as far as my dandy wasconcerned, once he formed a friendship
(48:28):
with you, unless you really wronged him.
He was your friend.
And he was my friend.
He was a true friend.
We had our ups and ourdowns, but he was loyal.
But he expected loyalty in return.
But that is the formulaof friendship, of course.
that's reasonable.
Yes,
I have enjoyed speaking with you so much.
I have three questions that are in my headthat I just want to put them out there.
(48:52):
And the first one is.
As I was preparing for our conversation,there was some some information
that I was reading about London.
I read something in your time that therewere as many as eight, possibly 80,
000 prostitutes working at the time.
And I ran across a term andthe term was a badger game.
(49:16):
What's a badger game?
I can tell you what the BadgerGame is because I played it.
It's funny you mention it.
Well, not funny, but I mean, Oh,it's a wonder to me that you would.
But I compliment your research, Tony.
You are very thorough.
The Badger Game Was the process ofusing a young girl such as myself,
(49:36):
sometimes a young boy, depending on thetype of people you're trying to hook
that would attract a man with money.
You would then and I did this whenI was younger until top actually
loaned me out to men for sex.
My job was to lure men, looking like aninnocent, pretty little young thing, who
(49:56):
was interested in having sex with them.
You understand?
Because many men are, and it is adisgusting thing to think about, but
many men are into that sort of thing.
to, uh, claiming underage girls.
, they're turned on by it.
And it's awful, but it's true.
So I would pretend to be interested andlead them to a sequestered location.
(50:17):
Top would be hiding close by,such as in the cupboard or
behind the door or something.
And the moment that this man confirmedthat's what he wanted, Top would leap out
from where he was hiding and claim to bemy father and claim to, I shall expose
you and tell the world what you are.
I will ruin you, sir, unless yougive me what I want, you foul thing.
(50:42):
And, of course, that the man inquestion would be on his knees begging
to not be exposed because it wouldend his family, his career, his social
standing, and of course you mustrealize, in my time, that is everything.
Yeah.
If you lose that, youmight as well be dead.
Your position in society iswhat makes you, and you have
to fight like hell to keep it.
(51:03):
And so the man would eventuallyfound her and say, I should give you
anything you like, and of course we'dextort him for all the money he had.
And his watch and some otherthings that he'd be willing to give
us that we could pawn and sell.
And and that was the badger game.
And that is the game that I played, and Isaw it as a game, because Top again, very,
a very manipulative man, who said, The menwho hurt you , we can't get actual revenge
(51:29):
on them, but wouldn't it be nice, Ruby, toget revenge on as many men as you could?
And I'd be there to defend you, and theywouldn't hurt you, but we could embarrass
them, and we could get money off them.
And, of course, having been abused asI was, I thought, Well, if you'll keep
me safe, I'd love to play that game.
Oh, yes, I want to embarrass them.
I want to ruin them.
(51:49):
And that was my introductionto the world of whoredom.
That is the badger game.
That is much easier thanworking for the money.
Well, it, well, yes, I, you are correct.
You are correct, and I shall letthat comment slide, given that
you're so pleasant to talk to.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And I mean, it just seems like,oh, geez, everything about that
(52:12):
life was just so dark and just,it's, it really is incredible.
All right.
My last two questions.
And the question was if you could describeDickens, your friend in Just a few words.
What would you, howwould you describe him?
A sentence?
A flawed man, but a good man.
And the last one is, whatwould those words be for you?
(52:35):
To describe myself?
Oh.
She was never a lady, buther heart remained pure.
And we'll leave it at that.
Is there anything, any advice that you'dleave behind for future generations?
Anything you'd like to say to the women?
Anything at all you'd like tosay before we wrap this up?
Yes, I would, and I thank you for asking.
(52:56):
I would say to any other women,particularly young girls, or anyone that
finds themselves in circumstances suchas I was in thankfully, through programs
such as Dickens was able to create.
I do hope that whereyou live, there is help.
Don't take no for an answer.
(53:16):
Fight like hell to get it.
Be safe, but do what you can.
And above all, always, nomatter what happens in your
life, it is not your fault.
Remember that.
Hold on to it.
Believe it, because it will save you.
Ultimately, it is never your fault.
And I would add to that.
Something that I have alwayssaid being someone who sews,
(53:40):
sleeves are a lot like life.
They're hard to get right the first time.
And I hope that everyone listeningwill have as many chances as I have.
Because heaven knows, if we womendon't support one another, who will?
Beautifully said.
Thank you, Ruby, for your time today.
It has been an absolute pleasure.
(54:00):
Oh, you're very welcome.
My pleasure as well.
It's hard to know which partsof Ruby's story are true.
Just like her friend, Charles Dickens,who was able to capture the minds of his
audience by spinning a fascinating tale.
. Ruby may have possessed that same talent.
But what we do know for sure isthat at this time in London, there
were many girls who were victimizedin this way at a young age.
(54:23):
We also know that every person that Rubymentioned in the story was a real person.
Urania cottage was also a real place.
As was its affiliation withCharles Dickens, which is
still hard for me to believe.
And we know that Ruby Wallerwas a resident with records of
completing the one year requirement.
Including going to Australia.
And finally, although Dickens wrote almostnothing about Ruby specifically, there
(54:47):
was one entry in one of his writingswhere he was describing Ruby's stepfather.
It only said a few words.
Stepfather bad.
Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that.
When you tell a friend about thecalling history podcast, somewhere
in Costa Rica, a sloths hosts, aspeed dating event, I'm Tony Dean.
(55:08):
And until next time.
Um, history.
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