April 2, 2025 • 40 mins
On July 4, 1833, Sally Hemings was living with her sons when she received a call from the future…
In this episode, Sally is going explain the relationship, or lack of one, between her and President Jefferson. She’ll also talk about the solemn promise Jefferson made to Sally if she would leave her freedom in France and return with him to Monticello.
Start the episode now to join the conversation.
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ROBIN PEASE, actor, playwright, teaching artist, director, historical re-enactor, holds a Master of Fine Arts from Case Western Reserve University and a Bachelor of Fine Arts from Berklee’s Boston Conservatory. She has performed and taught drama/theatre, music, dance, literary arts and multiculturalism for people of all ages throughout the country from Massachusetts, to Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida, Indiana, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Virginia and more. Robin has presented for the Arts Education Partnership, Kennedy Center, International Children’s Games, Cleveland Public Theatre, Dolly Parton Imagination Library, Young Audiences, and the Corning Glass Museum, just to name a few.
Named by the National Storytelling Network an “emerging, under-appreciated and regional treasure storyteller", Pease's The Talkative Turtle And Other Tales has fans all over the world.
Learn more about Robin at:
https://www.kulturekids.org/about-kulture-kids/staff/
https://www.womeninhistoryohio.com/robin-pease.html
Contact her at: Robin.Pease@kulturekids.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
.I am Tony Dean and today we'll be callingHistory to Speak with Sally Hemings.
She'll be answering ourcall on July 4th, 1833.
She didn't actually know theexact date of her birth, so she's
about 60 years old right now andwill die in the next two years.
Before we begin, I think it is importantto set some ground rules and establish
an understanding because Thomas Jeffersonis revered in American history and yet.
(00:52):
Despite all of his accomplishments andhis contributions to our nation, if
you judged him by today's standards,his actions would be considered beyond
despicable, which raises the question,how are we supposed to feel about
his relationship with Sally Hemmings?
First of all, she was just 14 or 15years old when Jefferson sent word
(01:14):
that he wanted his daughter broughtto him in France and made young
Sally responsible for the task.
She sailed across the world somehowmanaging to deliver Jefferson's
daughter to him, and then whileoverseas, he impregnated her.
But why?
I mean, this was Thomas Jefferson.
He would've been a rock star in his time.
(01:35):
He wouldn't have struggled to findwomen who were interested in him.
Was it because his wife made himpromise that he would never remarry?
Did he choose Sally as his concubine?
Because incredibly, she washis late wife's half sister.
and as many people said,looked very much like.
Jefferson's wife who had passed along.
(01:55):
. What about the fact that he understoodthat slavery was a terrible thing
and yet he owned hundreds ofpeople over the course of his life?
Obviously, none of this is okay,and yet, as Sally says, in this
conversation, everyone was doing it.
Is it possible that Jefferson didn'ttruly believe that he was harming
anyone considering that in histime, slaves were seen as property.
(02:17):
We've already heard Jeffersonside of this story when we
interviewed him a few months ago.
Now it's time to hear the other side.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow historylovers and French speakers everywhere.
I give you Sally Hemmings.
Hello, is that you, Ms. Hemmings?
Yes, it.
Ma'am, I am so excitedto speak with you today.
(02:37):
My name is Tony Dean.
I'm calling you from thefuture in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding is calleda smartphone, and it allows us to speak
as if you and I were just sitting inthe same room talking with one another.
And it also allows me to sharea record of our conversation
with people around the world.
And I was hoping that I couldask you some questions today, but
(02:59):
before I do, I understand thisis a very strange introduction.
Are there any questions thatI can answer for you First?
You are so right Mr. Dean, when youare saying that it is a strange,
, the whole idea of a smart phoneand that people will be getting
this information around the world.
What
you in, Mr. Dean?
(03:20):
well, actually I am in 2025when I'm talking to you.
So I am way in the future , butthese devices in our time, everybody
has these, we just use them tocommunicate with one another.
Oh my goodness.
That is amazing.
The future is something tolook forward to, I guess.
very much so.
By the way, if one of your kids weremost likely to enjoy this kind of
(03:44):
technology, which one do you think woulden would communicate with you the most?
Oh, on one hand I would sayMadison, but then on the other
hand, Eston the true musician.
So, I don't know.
They both would be amazed atthis sort of This smart phone.
Did you say Eston is a musician?
(04:07):
Yes.
Actually, Bo, all myboys played the violin.
I didn't know that.
Do they put on shows and so forth?
Oh, yes, indeed.
Indeed, they are.
They were excellent musicians.
Very good.
They always played at partiesand dances, and even though they
were trained as carpenters, theirmusical skills were amazing.
(04:28):
Now when you say they were trained ascarpenters, this is one of the things
that I was learning about your life is,I'm fascinated about how it appears to me
that when you were living with PresidentJefferson and you were enslaved it
seemed that that whole time that you werepreparing , your children for a time when
(04:49):
they wouldn't be enslaved and when theywould be ready to live, , on their own.
Is that correct?
'cause it seems they were trainedin all kinds of different skills.
Well, this is really hard, butwhen pregnant in France, Mr.
Jefferson told me that any childrenI had would be trained so that.
(05:13):
would have a means of supportingthemselves when they got to be older.
And he promised me thatit was a sacred promise.
And so all of my children were trainedin some sort of way so that they could,
, support themselves when they were free.
All the boys were trained tobe carpenters with my brother
John, who was on Monticello.
(05:33):
And he was a fabulous carpenter.
He, he could make anything outta wood.
And so all of my boys weretrained as carpenters, but they
also how to play the violin.
They were all musical.
But Eston really lovedmusic and he would play.
How did they get equipment?
Because violins are not cheap in ourtime, and I'm guessing they're probably
(05:56):
expensive in your time, did Mr.Jefferson give them violins or buy them
for them or were you able to buy them?
would I be able to buy violin?
I don't think so.
I never
question.
money.
No I never had any money.
The only time I ever had moneywas when I lived in France.
That was the only time Iever got paid for my work.
(06:18):
And so, yes, Mr. Jefferson hadto get them, the instruments.
And also he had to get them lessonsbecause I don't know if you ever
picked up a violin or tried toplay one, but it's not easy.
and you need to, you know, you needsome lessons in how to play it.
So President Jefferson, my understandingis that he made a promise when you were
(06:39):
in France that when you were, I thinkyou were trying to stay in France and he
wanted you to come back to Monticello.
I thought the promise was that hewould free the kids later in life from
their enslavement, but he also madea pledge to you that he would train
them and give them skills so theywould be ready for life after that.
yes.
That was definitely part of it because,, when we were in France, , I even know
(07:04):
where I got the courage to speak up,because I was only 15 years old . He did
promise me because my brother James and I,we were both in France now, I went over to
France when I was 14 years old because hewanted his daughter, Polly to be brought
over to him in France because he went toFrance with his daughter Patsy, because he
(07:30):
was the United States minister to France.
So he went over to France and hewas living there, but he left his
two other daughters back in, inVirginia and his wife was dead.
She had been dead for a long time and.
Their aunt was taking care ofthem, of the two other girls.
But then Lucy got sick andshe died of whooping cough.
(07:51):
And when he heard that he wantedPolly to be brought to him in France,
and so they decided, okay, sosomebody's gonna bring her over there.
Now I don't know how I got chosen becauselike I said, I was only 14 years old.
But I think Isabelle was supposedto take Polly to France, but
Isabelle just had a baby.
(08:11):
So I don't know who decidedthat I was the one, I don't
know if it was my mother or Mrs.
Epps, but they thoughtI was very responsible.
And also Polly was, she was a challengingchild I guess, but she loved me because
I had taken care of her since she was ababy, even though I was a child myself.
So, I took her, I got on an enormousboat, traveled across the ocean.
(08:33):
I had never seen anythinglike that before.
And I got her to France and when wegot there, we stayed with John and
Abigail Adams for a time in London.
I remember I said I was only 14 years old.
Mis Mistress Adams.
She was very nice, but I don'tthink she thought I was a good
enough caretaker for Polly.
think she thought that I was tooyoung to care for an 8-year-old.
(08:55):
I mean, I was only 14,but I did get her there.
And once we were in London for a time.
Then we went to, we got to Francebecause he sent somebody to come
and get us and bring us to Paris.
That's where he was livingwith his elder daughter, Patsy.
while we were in Paris, my brother Jameswas also there because he had come over
(09:16):
to learn how to do French style cooking.
That's what James' job was.
Because Mr. Jefferson loved French food.
His favorite food was t.Do you know what that is?
I don't, what is it?
It's something that I think when Itell you in English, you will know
(09:38):
macaroni or macaroni and cheese.
Is that a popular meal in your time?
I.
Not until Mr. Jeffersonbrought it over from France.
my brother James, because he justloved that Mr. Jefferson loved.
He loved French food, heloved French onion soup.
He loved creme brulee.
loved french fries, even thoughfrench fries came from Belgium,
(09:59):
not France, but he loved that too.
He loved wine, he loved champagne, andso James came over with him learn the
art of French cooking, and then the
was that James would bring Frenchstyle cooking back to Monticello.
and one of the things that hebrought back was macaroni and cheese.
So as soon as he gets back, the big dishthat he's making is macaroni and cheese
(10:22):
.He even sent a pasta maker back to Monticello because he wanted
to have macaroni and cheese.
He just loved that.
But James had his own style of cooking.
He took French style cooking andcombined it with southern style
cooking, and the aristocracy therein Paris just loved his food.
And they always wanted James tocook for them at their parties.
(10:43):
James,
it was.
It was.
It was something there.
But when I was in France Mr. Jefferson gotme a tutor to learn how to speak French.
And was hard at first, but it was alsowonderful to speak another language,
you know, to go to the market or theshops and speak to the people in Paris,
Bon I mean, Paris was a huge city, like600,000 people from all over the world.
(11:10):
Building shops, markets,rife, the Louv, Notre Dame.
was so different fromVirginia and Monticello.
Oh my.
We stayed right in the heart of Paris.
On the sham Say it was amazing.
But so we stayed in Paris for twoyears we stayed in town during
the week, but on the weekends.
(11:31):
On the weekends we would go tohis villa in the country and there
were always so many people there.
And was obsessed with this one woman.
She was an artist.
Her name was Madam Maria ue.
And the two of them were always together.
Once he even left over afountain showing off for her
and he fell and broke his wrist,
(11:52):
was this somebody, did he have aromantic relationship with her?
Is this somebody hethought about marrying?
I do not know.
First of all, he could never marry becausehe promised Martha, his wife, that on
her deathbed that he would never marry.
Oh,
again.
I didn't.
Maria Costway, she was already married.
She was married to somebody else,but he was obsessed with her.
(12:14):
They were always together talking.
He wrote her letters.
He wrote her this oneletter I saw one time.
It was a conversation betweenhis head and his heart.
I don't know, but he was soobsessed with her that I never
thought he would come for me.
But was a married lady and althoughI do not think she cared much for
her husband, she was a lady and Ido not know what happened to them.
(12:37):
she returned to London and I shouldhave suspected something then.
But I was only 14, 15 years old.
I did not, but sometimes when I'dbe walking through the halls, he
would turn and he would look at me.
He would just stop andhe would look at me.
And then one night
he came for me, had no choice.
(13:00):
I was almost 15 years old.
What choice did I had?
I had no choice.
He was 30, 40, I don't even knowhow many years older than me.
He came for me.
I was just a child and he came for me.
Well, I want you to know that inour time people know well, I think
we know a lot of what happened.
(13:20):
We know that your children are.
Your and his children.
We know that.
So I know it appears to me in your timethat he never formally announced that, but
we definitely know that in, in this time.
And, and I guess I'm just wondering,there are some people that question
the relationship between the two of you.
(13:41):
I mean, , was this aconsensual relationship or
was he being inappropriate?
He was 30 years older than me.
He was 30 years old.
I was 15 years old.
How could you even ask me ifit was, if I had a choice?
I belonged to him.
He owned me.
He
(14:01):
Right.
he wanted with me.
he came for me.
And you are talking about lamo,you're talking about love.
I was just a child who dreamed oflove like my older siblings had
with their husbands and wives.
I dreamed of love of having a husbandand children, but he came for me.
(14:21):
I had no choice.
He
Yeah.
No, I,
wanted whenever he wanted.
And remember I didn't tell you this,but his wife who died, Martha Jefferson,
his white wife who died so manyyears ago, she was my half sister.
yeah.
What was up with that?
I like, I read something about that.
We had the same father, differentmothers, but we had the same father..
(14:45):
She died when I was eight years old.
did you have a relationship with her?
When you say a relationship, I don't knowwhat you mean, but I mean, I was enslaved.
She gave me, when, before shedied, she gave me this little bell.
And remember I was like eightyears old, but she gave me
this bell and it was the bell.
She used to call me when shewanted me to do something for her.
(15:09):
And she gave it to you before shedied or she just gave it to you?
I don't understand.
. Well, I don't know., but she did, shegave me this bell, it used to sit on
her dresser and one day she , was sick.
She always had problems with anytimeshe was having a baby and she was
sick and , she gave me that bell and I
Do.
bell.
(15:30):
If that was the bell that she used tocall you when she needed something,
do you think that was her way ofsaying that, that she wasn't gonna
call on you anymore, or that it wassome sort of freedom in her mind that
she couldn't ring a bell and you hadto, , just answer every time it rang?
I really do not know.
know what she was thinking atthat time, because like I said,
(15:51):
I was only eight years old.
But I do know that peoplesaid that I looked like her.
And,
Really?
not so black.
My hair was straight and long.
My skin was not so dark.
So people said that I looked like her.
And so I'm wondering, isthat why he came from me?
Because I looked like her.
(16:12):
Because it was easy to satisfy his needs.
I do not know, but I just knowhow could there be love when
there was no choice for me.
He took what he wanted.
He always did.
just, he took what he wanted andwhen Madam Maria Costway went back
to London, that's when he came forme and then all of a sudden he said
(16:36):
it was time to go back to Monticello.
I.
Mm-hmm.
And my brother James saidthat we should stay in Paris
slavery was illegal in France.
And when we were in France,that's when he actually paid us.
He paid us, he paid me to be his servantbecause you couldn't have slaves in Paris.
(16:56):
He paid me $2 a month and hepaid James my brother $4 a month.
That was twice what he paid me.
And then of course, the other whiteFrench servants in his household,
he paid them eight to $12 a month.
But still, even though he paid me$2 a month, he paid me something.
And James said that we could getwork because we were trained.
(17:17):
When I came over to Paris, I was trainedto be a chamber ma, and I learned
about fashion and I learned how todo hair I learned how to launder and
sew and take care of fine clothes.
And James, of course was, , he was a chef.
And so James said that we shouldstay in Paris and be free.
There was a busy black communityin Paris where we could live.
(17:39):
James could make his living as a chef.
I could make my living as a seamstress,A chamber made, we could be free.
But that was when I realized Iwas on song was having his baby.
That's when you realized it.
, I want.
To ask you why you left Paris, becauseit seems like you should be in Paris
right now, and you should have been inParis your whole life because that's
(18:02):
the place that you would've been free.
But , I wanna clear one thing up.
Two things actually.
Number one, the way that youwere treated as property, I
do not agree with that at all.
Nothing.
That was not fair.
That was not right.
And it was terrible whenyou were , a teenage girl.
And it, it, it would've been just asbad if you were older, I think even
(18:23):
though probably worse being a, ayoung girl, but they're both equally
just awful in every possible way.
And I'm completely against that.
But one of the questions that I keepasking you, and it appears that it offends
you when I ask it, and I don't mean tooffend you, is when I, I'm asking this
question about . What a relationshipwas because it does appear that your
(18:43):
family was being treated differently.
. I'm guessing that all the people enslavedthat you lived with he wasn't buying
all of them violins, and I'm guessingthat all of these skills that you were
taught, I'm guessing that that, that hewasn't teaching everybody these skills
and trying to teach them how to liveafter a time hopefully would come where
(19:04):
everybody would get their freedom.
So the relationship was terrible.
But there was something there, and I'mjust trying to understand what it is.
Did, did you care for him at all?
I don't know how you couldcare for someone like that,
Yeah.
I don't think you understand is that Ibelonged to him practically my whole life.
(19:27):
53 years until he died.
He owned me and he had mefor almost 40 of those years.
I had no choice, he took from me.
He took away my choice of who to be with.
I had
Yeah.
only him.
He took away my chance to havea husband, a loving husband.
He took away a father for my children.
(19:48):
He had no relationshipwith my children Really.
He took away my son Beverly,and my daughter Harriet, because
they were my eldest children.
And when they reached the age of 21, theyran away and he didn't send anyone to
get them like he did for other slaves.
And he took that from me.
It was hard for my children, seeinghim give love and affection to his
(20:12):
other children and his grandchildrenand nothing to my children.
? He, he, He took that all this andmore, he took away my dignity and
in death he didn't free me in death.
He couldn't free me.
He gave me something that theycalled my time, which is not freedom.
It's just a, , to still be a slave.
(20:33):
But I could come and go as I pleased.
That's what he gave me my time.
Not freedom.
I was still enslaved.
He couldn't let me go, not even in death.
And you are asking me there was arelationship, you think about it, how
it would be for you if somebody cameand took you and you had no choice.
(20:56):
If you have love and feelings.
I mean, my brothers andsisters, they had partners.
They had husbands orwives that they loved.
And when you love someone, don't youspend time with them and you do nice
things for them and when you havechildren, aren't you supposed to show
your children love and affection?
(21:18):
We didn't have that.
We never had that.
So, . Why did he teach them those?
Your sons and your daughter?
Why did he teach them skills?
Why did he prepare them for the future?
I don't understand.
I'm, I'm so confused why he doesn'tacknowledge that they're his children
in your time, and yet he preparesthem like they are and,, and in
(21:39):
fact, , aren't your children's aren'tthere names named after relatives on
his side of the familyor, or friends of his
yes it is.
Well, the reason, I'll tell you thereason we were treated better than the
other enslaved people, because when Iwas in France he decided it was time
to go back to Monticello and my brotherdecided that we were gonna stay in France.
(22:04):
But remember, I, I was having this baby.
I was on song, and if I stayed inFrance, I would never see my mother
again, or my brothers and my sisters.
Oh, and you had a baby.
see them.
I was having a baby and I wasthinking about who loved me.
My mother loved me, my sisters andmy brothers back in Monticello.
They love me.
I could go back to Monticello and beenslaved, or I could stay in Paris
(22:27):
with my brother James and be free.
But I needed my mother.
I needed my family.
And I was afraid to go back toMonticello and be enslaved again.
And then if I went back, his baby wouldbe enslaved too, because there was
this thing called partis sequitur rum,that which is born follows the womb,
even if the father is free and white,the owner and the mother of the baby.
(22:51):
Will be enslaved.
If the mother is enslaved,the children are enslaved.
So I decided right then thatI was gonna stay in Paris.
I told them I would not go backto Monticello and be enslaved
and have my children be enslaved.
I told them that I would stay in Parisand be free, but Paris was dangerous.
The price of bread was so high andthe harvest was not a good one.
(23:11):
People were starving and they weretalking about the king's abuse of power,
and people were singing in the streets.
They were singing,
and then people stormed the Bastille.
And that was only six kilometersfrom where we were staying
and people were killed.
And his friend, Mr. Lafayette, he cameto ask for help, like when Lafayette
(23:34):
helped him join the American Revolution.
And then I was thinking,revolution, did I wanna stay in
Paris with this talk of revolution?
He wanted me to go back to Monticello withhim and that's when I said I wouldn't go.
That's when he said that he would give meextraordinary privileges and he solemnly
promised that any children I had wouldbe free when they reached the age of 21
(23:57):
and my children would be raised by me.
'cause sometimes.
Enslaved children were notnecessarily raised by their parents
because they had work to do.
And he also solemnly promised that thework I would do at Monticello would
not be in the fields that I would behis chamber made and take care of his
clothes and be a seamstress and a laundre.
And my children.
(24:18):
He also solemnly promised me that mychildren would not work in the fields.
He promised that my children would learnhow to read and they would be allowed
to stay around the Great House and dolight work and I would take care of them.
And he's promised me that the boys wouldall learn a trade so when they were
free, they could support themselves.
And that's when he learned carpentry.
(24:38):
And my daughters, any daughters I had,they would learn how to spin and weave.
And he said that the boys would learnhow to play the violin like him.
If.
I would go back with himand , I was only 15 years old.
That's when I realized that thiswas not just a one time thing.
He was saying that I would have morechildren with him and that I was
to service him as his concubine.
(25:00):
I didn't know what that word meant.
So I looked it up and it comesfrom some Latin calm meaning
with, and kuba meaning lie down.
And so that's what mylife was going to be.
I was gonna lie down with himand serve him as a wife, would,
but not be married to him.
I was, and would remain enslaved to him.
So I did, I went back to Virginia
(25:21):
For your children.
For my children and mysupport for my mother.
But when I got back toVirginia, my baby died, baby.
And he waited.
And then you'd be walking inthe hallways and then still
he would look at me and then.
Venu POIs, he came for me.
(25:43):
He always came for me.
He would go away to Williamsburgor Richmond or Washington.
And then when he came back,he came for me, and then nine
months later I would have a baby.
, I'm just super confused as towhy, , why does he not announce
that, , when you start having childrenwith him that they are his children?
What would be the consequencesfor him if he did that?
(26:05):
I.
Oh, that is a very good question.
Well, for one thing.
There was steep penalties for men, whitemen who violated the anti miscegenation
law or statute, whatever it was.
There was a law against that.
He could face political and socialostracism if he admitted it.
(26:28):
And so he didn't, he said nothing.
He never said anything.
It was a crime against natureaccording to the state of Virginia.
Against nature.
yes, because white men, , they'renot supposed to do that.
But it's also, it's not funny, butit's all the white men did it, all
the enslavers, they all did it.
(26:50):
It's just what they did.
And
Geez,
the strange thing is that, , hedid not believe in slavery.
least that's what he said.
right.
this from the man who wrote, we holdthese truths to be self-evident.
That all men are created equaland endowed by their creator with
certain unalienable rights, life,liberty in the pursuit of happiness.
(27:12):
He said, all men are created equal,but he did not really mean all in
that word, all because he did notinclude the enslaved in that word.
All because enslaved peopleare not considered to be men.
The enslaved are property.
And even though he called the Instituteof Slavery, an abominable crime
(27:33):
and moral depravity, he continuedto own people his whole life.
And he said women were morevaluable than men because he
could make a 4% profit every year.
Since the birth of black childrenwho then became enslaved were an
investment strategy for the future.
Parties sequitur rum thatwhich is born follows the womb.
So when you're enslaved by somebody andyou know that somebody like Jefferson is
(27:59):
hoping that you will have children becausethen he gets his 4% return on his money.
Are you intentionallytrying not to have children?
I mean, not in your case,but generally speaking,
, my first time I was only 15 years old.
What did I know?
did I know about relationsbetween men and women?
(28:20):
I did not know anything.
yeah.
when I was in France and mymother wasn't there to talk to me.
I don't know.
Now that you know how this all turned out.
Do you wish that youwould've stayed in France?
Do you wish you, I mean, your motherwould've certainly understood, right?
She would've understood, butI don't, I would be alone.
(28:40):
It takes time to set up alife, find a place to live,
people who you can depend upon.
I mean, isn't that whatyour family is for?
Yeah.
that's what your family is for.
I don't, and plus I didn't, I guessthat was the only decision that I
(29:01):
ever really made was to go back.
I could have said, or goback the rest of my life.
never, I never made any decisions.
How could I make any decisions?
I was enslaved.
People told me what todo and that's what I did.
The.
thing is that, , I had six children,but we weren't even considered
(29:23):
his family, not his real family.
They called us his enslavedshadow family, and they called
my children his yellow children.
And their property, not human subhumanbelonging to him, forced to work and obey
and be used at the enslavers pleasure.
mean I had been used byhim for almost 40 years.
Used like a wife, but not his wife.
(29:45):
And that's just like all the enslavedwomen who had yellow children
with their enslavers in Virginia.
And it's not unusual in Virginia.
He's no different from other men.
All the white men did it.
It's just not talked about.
It's considered a private matter.
And when visitors would come here toMonticello and they would see enslaved
children working as house servants,children who looked like him, tall,
(30:07):
skin, reddish hair, nobody said anything.
Did his, did your children havereddish hair and lighter skin?
Y yes,
Okay.
My whole family have been enslavedsince the day they were born.
I have been enslavedsince the day I was born.
My mother, my sisters, brothers,uncles, aunts, cousins, they
were enslaved since the day theywere born, but not our fathers.
(30:30):
Our fathers were not enslaved because ourfathers were the enslavers generations
of enslavers mating with enslaved women.
My grandfather, captain Hemmings, hewas a white Englishman on a trading
ship who came to Virginia and hetook my African grandmother and
gave her a child that was my mother.
Now, the white Englishman, the Africangrandmother that made my mother
(30:52):
half white and half black, , theycalled her a mulatto, and Captain
Hemmings happened to be in the Portof Williamsburg, and he acknowledged
that he had fathered this child andhe tried to purchase her from Mr.
Wales, but Mr. Wales would notpart with that child that was my
mother because he wanted to see.
What this half black and half whitemulatto child was going to be like.
(31:16):
So Captain Hemmings went back onhis way and left my mother there.
And so my mother washalf white, half black.
And then there was my father.
Now my father, John Wales, he wasmarried three times to white women,
but all of his white wives died.
(31:38):
And so I guess that's why hetook my half white, half black
mulatto mother and I think he was20 years older than my mother.
And so he took her and had six children.
John Wales, my father already had fourdaughters from his three dead white wives.
And my sister, half sister Martha.
(31:59):
She was one of John Wales' daughters.
And.
So when my mother had me and mybrothers and sisters, they call us
Quadron because that makes us threequarters white and one quarter black.
That's a quadron.
(32:20):
So Mulatto is half and Quadroonis three quarters, one quarter.
So you are mostly white
That is correct.
That is
and.
the interesting thing about those words,mulatto I, never knew what that was, and
so I, I looked it up and I found out thatmulatto comes from Spanish or Portuguese
(32:42):
word, I'm not sure, meaning mule,because they looked upon my mother mule.
Because a mule is the result ofthe mating of a horse and a donkey.
In this instance, the horse beingmy father and the donkey being
my grandmother, and that madethe mule, which was my mother.
(33:04):
So they called her a mulatto.
And then
Wow.
was with my father, John Wales, to havesix children who are , quad meaning
four, because like you said, I was threequarters white and one quarter black.
So
mm-hmm.
quarters and one quarter.
(33:25):
so then when my half sister had beendead for many years and her husband,
I. Came from me and I had six children.
Six must be the magicnumber children are called.
They're seven eighthswhite and one eighth black.
So you can see if they'reseven eighths white.
(33:47):
They're pretty white.
Yeah.
thing is that in the state of Virginia,if you are a quadroon, census,
they'll put you down as white,except your mother was a slave.
So even though my children seven eighthswhite, because enslaved and their mother
(34:09):
part sequitur rum, that which is born
Yeah,
the womb.
they still didn't qualify.
No, they did not.
Wow.
So your children, couldyour children pass as white?
Could you pass as white?
I don't think that I could pass as white,even though somebody on the on Monticello
(34:30):
described me as dawn near white.
But my children, my eldest son,Beverly, and my daughter Harriet,
I remember I told you that they ranaway when they reached the age of 21
Right.
and they went to Washingtonand they lived as white.
They
Oh, they did?
they, yes they passed as white, andthat's when I say I never saw them again.
(34:53):
I did not because they could neversee me again because did not
want to be known as being black.
Did they write to you?
Is this how you, youreceived this information?
Well.
Beverly left first 'cause he was alittle older, and then Harriet left
and Mr. Jefferson gave Harriet $50.
(35:15):
Well, he didn't give it to her.
He gave the oversee of $50 togive Harriet to start her new life
in Washington with her brother.
And he also arranged for a stagecoach to take her to Washington.
So they knew that Beverlywas in Washington and then
I see.
knew that she was
And so Mr. Jeffers, presidentJefferson gave her $50 so she could
go start her new life, correct?
(35:36):
That's what you're saying.
That is right.
Okay.
And so, but earlier you had said thatthat you, that they escaped, but that
doesn't sound like they escaped at all.
It sounds like he helped them escape.
Is that, is that.
no.
Beverly ran away.
they had always known, or at least I toldthem, that he promised that when they
(35:59):
reached the age of 21, he would free them,but he didn't, because usually when you
free someone, you get some sort of papers.
Beverly did not get any sort ofpapers, and he had enough, so
he just took off and he left.
Now there were other people who wereenslaved on Monticello if they ran away.
Mr. Jefferson sent people to findhim and bring him back, but they did
(36:21):
not, he did not do that to Beverly,and he didn't give Beverly anything.
He only gave Harriet $50and the stage coach, and,
Okay, now I.
she was going to run to, you know,she was gonna run and she was gonna
go with her brother, and so she did.
She left.
Okay, that Now I understand.
So . It sounds like everybody knewthat, that he had agreed with you
(36:44):
that they could leave when they were21, and then they reached that age,
and then Beverly said, that's it.
I'm done with this.
I'm outta here.
And then he just didn't chase thembecause whatever his justification that
he gave, but probably knew that he'd madethis promise to you, it'd be my guess.
Does that sound about right?
yes.
That was his solemn promise that heswore to me when we were in Paris that
(37:08):
they would be freed when they were 21.
It has to be very difficult to honora solemn promise from, from him,
considering the way that he treated you.
well, the problem was that Istill had two younger children.
Even though I had six children, onlyfour of them lived to adulthood,
(37:28):
Mm-hmm.
had Madison and Eston, andthen that was when he got sick.
Mr. Jefferson was sick and he didnot free , my last two children.
And I was wondering what was going tohappen with that because he was sick and
eventually , he was confined to his bed.
He was in a lot of pain.
(37:50):
And eventually he became,what's the word, stuporous.
Became stuporous.
He had swollen legs, painfuljoints, a fractured left wrist,
a boil on his jaw, deafness.
And then,, at one point when he was,before he was confined to his bed.
He had been sick for eight years, inspite of his pain, he was still riding
(38:12):
slowly and with difficulty, and inspite of his pain, he took daily rides
on horseback, but then very, all ofa sudden he, he was in too much pain
and he did not recognize anybody.
He did not recognize his daughters.
He did not recognize hisphysician, his grandchildren.
He did not recognize me.
He did not recognize my boys.
He didn't recognize anyone.
(38:33):
And so I was wonderingwhat was gonna happen.
my boys gonna run?
And if he dies, if Mr. Jefferson dies,which, and he was very sick, he was
83 years old, what's going to happen?
Are they gonna send people to go get mychildren if they don't have any papers?
I did not know I was.
(38:53):
I was very worried about that becauseMr. Jefferson was in incredible debt.
He owed $107,000
Geez.
He was in so much debt, and hiscreditors did not hound him because
he was the president, but theywere, I felt sure that his creditors
were not gonna do that to Polly.
(39:16):
And Patsy, his daughters.
Yeah.
I'm sure that his creditorswanted their money once he died
Oh, that is a lot.
Can you even imagine whatit must have been like to be
Sally Hemmings in that moment?
She'd been promised freedom by oneof the most powerful men in the
nation, but he's already forgottenhis own family at this point.
(39:38):
How in the world is he gonna remembera promise made to someone he enslaved?
After all, nobody's gonna believe her.
What will happen to her, whatwill happen to her children.
In the next episode, Sally'sgonna finish the story and share
how things ended as well as whereshe is in her life right now.
I'm glad that you're enjoying thispodcast, and if you haven't yet,
subscribe now and we'll see you at thenext episode of The Calling History
(40:00):
podcast with part two of Sally Hemmings.
.I am Tony Dean and today we'll be callingHistory to Speak with Sally Hemings.
She'll be answering ourcall on July 4th, 1833.
She didn't actually know theexact date of her birth, so she's
about 60 years old right now andwill die in the next two years.
Before we begin, I think it is importantto set some ground rules and establish
an understanding because Thomas Jeffersonis revered in American history and yet.
(00:52):
Despite all of his accomplishments andhis contributions to our nation, if
you judged him by today's standards,his actions would be considered beyond
despicable, which raises the question,how are we supposed to feel about
his relationship with Sally Hemmings?
First of all, she was just 14 or 15years old when Jefferson sent word
(01:14):
that he wanted his daughter broughtto him in France and made young
Sally responsible for the task.
She sailed across the world somehowmanaging to deliver Jefferson's
daughter to him, and then whileoverseas, he impregnated her.
But why?
I mean, this was Thomas Jefferson.
He would've been a rock star in his time.
(01:35):
He wouldn't have struggled to findwomen who were interested in him.
Was it because his wife made himpromise that he would never remarry?
Did he choose Sally as his concubine?
Because incredibly, she washis late wife's half sister.
and as many people said,looked very much like.
Jefferson's wife who had passed along.
(01:55):
. What about the fact that he understoodthat slavery was a terrible thing
and yet he owned hundreds ofpeople over the course of his life?
Obviously, none of this is okay,and yet, as Sally says, in this
conversation, everyone was doing it.
Is it possible that Jefferson didn'ttruly believe that he was harming
anyone considering that in histime, slaves were seen as property.
(02:17):
We've already heard Jeffersonside of this story when we
interviewed him a few months ago.
Now it's time to hear the other side.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow historylovers and French speakers everywhere.
I give you Sally Hemmings.
Hello, is that you, Ms. Hemmings?
Yes, it.
Ma'am, I am so excitedto speak with you today.
(02:37):
My name is Tony Dean.
I'm calling you from thefuture in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding is calleda smartphone, and it allows us to speak
as if you and I were just sitting inthe same room talking with one another.
And it also allows me to sharea record of our conversation
with people around the world.
And I was hoping that I couldask you some questions today, but
(02:59):
before I do, I understand thisis a very strange introduction.
Are there any questions thatI can answer for you First?
You are so right Mr. Dean, when youare saying that it is a strange,
, the whole idea of a smart phoneand that people will be getting
this information around the world.
What
you in, Mr. Dean?
(03:20):
well, actually I am in 2025when I'm talking to you.
So I am way in the future , butthese devices in our time, everybody
has these, we just use them tocommunicate with one another.
Oh my goodness.
That is amazing.
The future is something tolook forward to, I guess.
very much so.
By the way, if one of your kids weremost likely to enjoy this kind of
(03:44):
technology, which one do you think woulden would communicate with you the most?
Oh, on one hand I would sayMadison, but then on the other
hand, Eston the true musician.
So, I don't know.
They both would be amazed atthis sort of This smart phone.
Did you say Eston is a musician?
(04:07):
Yes.
Actually, Bo, all myboys played the violin.
I didn't know that.
Do they put on shows and so forth?
Oh, yes, indeed.
Indeed, they are.
They were excellent musicians.
Very good.
They always played at partiesand dances, and even though they
were trained as carpenters, theirmusical skills were amazing.
(04:28):
Now when you say they were trained ascarpenters, this is one of the things
that I was learning about your life is,I'm fascinated about how it appears to me
that when you were living with PresidentJefferson and you were enslaved it
seemed that that whole time that you werepreparing , your children for a time when
(04:49):
they wouldn't be enslaved and when theywould be ready to live, , on their own.
Is that correct?
'cause it seems they were trainedin all kinds of different skills.
Well, this is really hard, butwhen pregnant in France, Mr.
Jefferson told me that any childrenI had would be trained so that.
(05:13):
would have a means of supportingthemselves when they got to be older.
And he promised me thatit was a sacred promise.
And so all of my children were trainedin some sort of way so that they could,
, support themselves when they were free.
All the boys were trained tobe carpenters with my brother
John, who was on Monticello.
(05:33):
And he was a fabulous carpenter.
He, he could make anything outta wood.
And so all of my boys weretrained as carpenters, but they
also how to play the violin.
They were all musical.
But Eston really lovedmusic and he would play.
How did they get equipment?
Because violins are not cheap in ourtime, and I'm guessing they're probably
(05:56):
expensive in your time, did Mr.Jefferson give them violins or buy them
for them or were you able to buy them?
would I be able to buy violin?
I don't think so.
I never
question.
money.
No I never had any money.
The only time I ever had moneywas when I lived in France.
That was the only time Iever got paid for my work.
(06:18):
And so, yes, Mr. Jefferson hadto get them, the instruments.
And also he had to get them lessonsbecause I don't know if you ever
picked up a violin or tried toplay one, but it's not easy.
and you need to, you know, you needsome lessons in how to play it.
So President Jefferson, my understandingis that he made a promise when you were
(06:39):
in France that when you were, I thinkyou were trying to stay in France and he
wanted you to come back to Monticello.
I thought the promise was that hewould free the kids later in life from
their enslavement, but he also madea pledge to you that he would train
them and give them skills so theywould be ready for life after that.
yes.
That was definitely part of it because,, when we were in France, , I even know
(07:04):
where I got the courage to speak up,because I was only 15 years old . He did
promise me because my brother James and I,we were both in France now, I went over to
France when I was 14 years old because hewanted his daughter, Polly to be brought
over to him in France because he went toFrance with his daughter Patsy, because he
(07:30):
was the United States minister to France.
So he went over to France and hewas living there, but he left his
two other daughters back in, inVirginia and his wife was dead.
She had been dead for a long time and.
Their aunt was taking care ofthem, of the two other girls.
But then Lucy got sick andshe died of whooping cough.
(07:51):
And when he heard that he wantedPolly to be brought to him in France,
and so they decided, okay, sosomebody's gonna bring her over there.
Now I don't know how I got chosen becauselike I said, I was only 14 years old.
But I think Isabelle was supposedto take Polly to France, but
Isabelle just had a baby.
(08:11):
So I don't know who decidedthat I was the one, I don't
know if it was my mother or Mrs.
Epps, but they thoughtI was very responsible.
And also Polly was, she was a challengingchild I guess, but she loved me because
I had taken care of her since she was ababy, even though I was a child myself.
So, I took her, I got on an enormousboat, traveled across the ocean.
(08:33):
I had never seen anythinglike that before.
And I got her to France and when wegot there, we stayed with John and
Abigail Adams for a time in London.
I remember I said I was only 14 years old.
Mis Mistress Adams.
She was very nice, but I don'tthink she thought I was a good
enough caretaker for Polly.
think she thought that I was tooyoung to care for an 8-year-old.
(08:55):
I mean, I was only 14,but I did get her there.
And once we were in London for a time.
Then we went to, we got to Francebecause he sent somebody to come
and get us and bring us to Paris.
That's where he was livingwith his elder daughter, Patsy.
while we were in Paris, my brother Jameswas also there because he had come over
(09:16):
to learn how to do French style cooking.
That's what James' job was.
Because Mr. Jefferson loved French food.
His favorite food was t.Do you know what that is?
I don't, what is it?
It's something that I think when Itell you in English, you will know
(09:38):
macaroni or macaroni and cheese.
Is that a popular meal in your time?
I.
Not until Mr. Jeffersonbrought it over from France.
my brother James, because he justloved that Mr. Jefferson loved.
He loved French food, heloved French onion soup.
He loved creme brulee.
loved french fries, even thoughfrench fries came from Belgium,
(09:59):
not France, but he loved that too.
He loved wine, he loved champagne, andso James came over with him learn the
art of French cooking, and then the
was that James would bring Frenchstyle cooking back to Monticello.
and one of the things that hebrought back was macaroni and cheese.
So as soon as he gets back, the big dishthat he's making is macaroni and cheese
(10:22):
.He even sent a pasta maker back to Monticello because he wanted
to have macaroni and cheese.
He just loved that.
But James had his own style of cooking.
He took French style cooking andcombined it with southern style
cooking, and the aristocracy therein Paris just loved his food.
And they always wanted James tocook for them at their parties.
(10:43):
James,
it was.
It was.
It was something there.
But when I was in France Mr. Jefferson gotme a tutor to learn how to speak French.
And was hard at first, but it was alsowonderful to speak another language,
you know, to go to the market or theshops and speak to the people in Paris,
Bon I mean, Paris was a huge city, like600,000 people from all over the world.
(11:10):
Building shops, markets,rife, the Louv, Notre Dame.
was so different fromVirginia and Monticello.
Oh my.
We stayed right in the heart of Paris.
On the sham Say it was amazing.
But so we stayed in Paris for twoyears we stayed in town during
the week, but on the weekends.
(11:31):
On the weekends we would go tohis villa in the country and there
were always so many people there.
And was obsessed with this one woman.
She was an artist.
Her name was Madam Maria ue.
And the two of them were always together.
Once he even left over afountain showing off for her
and he fell and broke his wrist,
(11:52):
was this somebody, did he have aromantic relationship with her?
Is this somebody hethought about marrying?
I do not know.
First of all, he could never marry becausehe promised Martha, his wife, that on
her deathbed that he would never marry.
Oh,
again.
I didn't.
Maria Costway, she was already married.
She was married to somebody else,but he was obsessed with her.
(12:14):
They were always together talking.
He wrote her letters.
He wrote her this oneletter I saw one time.
It was a conversation betweenhis head and his heart.
I don't know, but he was soobsessed with her that I never
thought he would come for me.
But was a married lady and althoughI do not think she cared much for
her husband, she was a lady and Ido not know what happened to them.
(12:37):
she returned to London and I shouldhave suspected something then.
But I was only 14, 15 years old.
I did not, but sometimes when I'dbe walking through the halls, he
would turn and he would look at me.
He would just stop andhe would look at me.
And then one night
he came for me, had no choice.
(13:00):
I was almost 15 years old.
What choice did I had?
I had no choice.
He was 30, 40, I don't even knowhow many years older than me.
He came for me.
I was just a child and he came for me.
Well, I want you to know that inour time people know well, I think
we know a lot of what happened.
(13:20):
We know that your children are.
Your and his children.
We know that.
So I know it appears to me in your timethat he never formally announced that, but
we definitely know that in, in this time.
And, and I guess I'm just wondering,there are some people that question
the relationship between the two of you.
(13:41):
I mean, , was this aconsensual relationship or
was he being inappropriate?
He was 30 years older than me.
He was 30 years old.
I was 15 years old.
How could you even ask me ifit was, if I had a choice?
I belonged to him.
He owned me.
He
(14:01):
Right.
he wanted with me.
he came for me.
And you are talking about lamo,you're talking about love.
I was just a child who dreamed oflove like my older siblings had
with their husbands and wives.
I dreamed of love of having a husbandand children, but he came for me.
(14:21):
I had no choice.
He
Yeah.
No, I,
wanted whenever he wanted.
And remember I didn't tell you this,but his wife who died, Martha Jefferson,
his white wife who died so manyyears ago, she was my half sister.
yeah.
What was up with that?
I like, I read something about that.
We had the same father, differentmothers, but we had the same father..
(14:45):
She died when I was eight years old.
did you have a relationship with her?
When you say a relationship, I don't knowwhat you mean, but I mean, I was enslaved.
She gave me, when, before shedied, she gave me this little bell.
And remember I was like eightyears old, but she gave me
this bell and it was the bell.
She used to call me when shewanted me to do something for her.
(15:09):
And she gave it to you before shedied or she just gave it to you?
I don't understand.
. Well, I don't know., but she did, shegave me this bell, it used to sit on
her dresser and one day she , was sick.
She always had problems with anytimeshe was having a baby and she was
sick and , she gave me that bell and I
Do.
bell.
(15:30):
If that was the bell that she used tocall you when she needed something,
do you think that was her way ofsaying that, that she wasn't gonna
call on you anymore, or that it wassome sort of freedom in her mind that
she couldn't ring a bell and you hadto, , just answer every time it rang?
I really do not know.
know what she was thinking atthat time, because like I said,
(15:51):
I was only eight years old.
But I do know that peoplesaid that I looked like her.
And,
Really?
not so black.
My hair was straight and long.
My skin was not so dark.
So people said that I looked like her.
And so I'm wondering, isthat why he came from me?
Because I looked like her.
(16:12):
Because it was easy to satisfy his needs.
I do not know, but I just knowhow could there be love when
there was no choice for me.
He took what he wanted.
He always did.
just, he took what he wanted andwhen Madam Maria Costway went back
to London, that's when he came forme and then all of a sudden he said
(16:36):
it was time to go back to Monticello.
I.
Mm-hmm.
And my brother James saidthat we should stay in Paris
slavery was illegal in France.
And when we were in France,that's when he actually paid us.
He paid us, he paid me to be his servantbecause you couldn't have slaves in Paris.
(16:56):
He paid me $2 a month and hepaid James my brother $4 a month.
That was twice what he paid me.
And then of course, the other whiteFrench servants in his household,
he paid them eight to $12 a month.
But still, even though he paid me$2 a month, he paid me something.
And James said that we could getwork because we were trained.
(17:17):
When I came over to Paris, I was trainedto be a chamber ma, and I learned
about fashion and I learned how todo hair I learned how to launder and
sew and take care of fine clothes.
And James, of course was, , he was a chef.
And so James said that we shouldstay in Paris and be free.
There was a busy black communityin Paris where we could live.
(17:39):
James could make his living as a chef.
I could make my living as a seamstress,A chamber made, we could be free.
But that was when I realized Iwas on song was having his baby.
That's when you realized it.
, I want.
To ask you why you left Paris, becauseit seems like you should be in Paris
right now, and you should have been inParis your whole life because that's
(18:02):
the place that you would've been free.
But , I wanna clear one thing up.
Two things actually.
Number one, the way that youwere treated as property, I
do not agree with that at all.
Nothing.
That was not fair.
That was not right.
And it was terrible whenyou were , a teenage girl.
And it, it, it would've been just asbad if you were older, I think even
(18:23):
though probably worse being a, ayoung girl, but they're both equally
just awful in every possible way.
And I'm completely against that.
But one of the questions that I keepasking you, and it appears that it offends
you when I ask it, and I don't mean tooffend you, is when I, I'm asking this
question about . What a relationshipwas because it does appear that your
(18:43):
family was being treated differently.
. I'm guessing that all the people enslavedthat you lived with he wasn't buying
all of them violins, and I'm guessingthat all of these skills that you were
taught, I'm guessing that that, that hewasn't teaching everybody these skills
and trying to teach them how to liveafter a time hopefully would come where
(19:04):
everybody would get their freedom.
So the relationship was terrible.
But there was something there, and I'mjust trying to understand what it is.
Did, did you care for him at all?
I don't know how you couldcare for someone like that,
Yeah.
I don't think you understand is that Ibelonged to him practically my whole life.
(19:27):
53 years until he died.
He owned me and he had mefor almost 40 of those years.
I had no choice, he took from me.
He took away my choice of who to be with.
I had
Yeah.
only him.
He took away my chance to havea husband, a loving husband.
He took away a father for my children.
(19:48):
He had no relationshipwith my children Really.
He took away my son Beverly,and my daughter Harriet, because
they were my eldest children.
And when they reached the age of 21, theyran away and he didn't send anyone to
get them like he did for other slaves.
And he took that from me.
It was hard for my children, seeinghim give love and affection to his
(20:12):
other children and his grandchildrenand nothing to my children.
? He, he, He took that all this andmore, he took away my dignity and
in death he didn't free me in death.
He couldn't free me.
He gave me something that theycalled my time, which is not freedom.
It's just a, , to still be a slave.
(20:33):
But I could come and go as I pleased.
That's what he gave me my time.
Not freedom.
I was still enslaved.
He couldn't let me go, not even in death.
And you are asking me there was arelationship, you think about it, how
it would be for you if somebody cameand took you and you had no choice.
(20:56):
If you have love and feelings.
I mean, my brothers andsisters, they had partners.
They had husbands orwives that they loved.
And when you love someone, don't youspend time with them and you do nice
things for them and when you havechildren, aren't you supposed to show
your children love and affection?
(21:18):
We didn't have that.
We never had that.
So, . Why did he teach them those?
Your sons and your daughter?
Why did he teach them skills?
Why did he prepare them for the future?
I don't understand.
I'm, I'm so confused why he doesn'tacknowledge that they're his children
in your time, and yet he preparesthem like they are and,, and in
(21:39):
fact, , aren't your children's aren'tthere names named after relatives on
his side of the familyor, or friends of his
yes it is.
Well, the reason, I'll tell you thereason we were treated better than the
other enslaved people, because when Iwas in France he decided it was time
to go back to Monticello and my brotherdecided that we were gonna stay in France.
(22:04):
But remember, I, I was having this baby.
I was on song, and if I stayed inFrance, I would never see my mother
again, or my brothers and my sisters.
Oh, and you had a baby.
see them.
I was having a baby and I wasthinking about who loved me.
My mother loved me, my sisters andmy brothers back in Monticello.
They love me.
I could go back to Monticello and beenslaved, or I could stay in Paris
(22:27):
with my brother James and be free.
But I needed my mother.
I needed my family.
And I was afraid to go back toMonticello and be enslaved again.
And then if I went back, his baby wouldbe enslaved too, because there was
this thing called partis sequitur rum,that which is born follows the womb,
even if the father is free and white,the owner and the mother of the baby.
(22:51):
Will be enslaved.
If the mother is enslaved,the children are enslaved.
So I decided right then thatI was gonna stay in Paris.
I told them I would not go backto Monticello and be enslaved
and have my children be enslaved.
I told them that I would stay in Parisand be free, but Paris was dangerous.
The price of bread was so high andthe harvest was not a good one.
(23:11):
People were starving and they weretalking about the king's abuse of power,
and people were singing in the streets.
They were singing,
and then people stormed the Bastille.
And that was only six kilometersfrom where we were staying
and people were killed.
And his friend, Mr. Lafayette, he cameto ask for help, like when Lafayette
(23:34):
helped him join the American Revolution.
And then I was thinking,revolution, did I wanna stay in
Paris with this talk of revolution?
He wanted me to go back to Monticello withhim and that's when I said I wouldn't go.
That's when he said that he would give meextraordinary privileges and he solemnly
promised that any children I had wouldbe free when they reached the age of 21
(23:57):
and my children would be raised by me.
'cause sometimes.
Enslaved children were notnecessarily raised by their parents
because they had work to do.
And he also solemnly promised that thework I would do at Monticello would
not be in the fields that I would behis chamber made and take care of his
clothes and be a seamstress and a laundre.
And my children.
(24:18):
He also solemnly promised me that mychildren would not work in the fields.
He promised that my children would learnhow to read and they would be allowed
to stay around the Great House and dolight work and I would take care of them.
And he's promised me that the boys wouldall learn a trade so when they were
free, they could support themselves.
And that's when he learned carpentry.
(24:38):
And my daughters, any daughters I had,they would learn how to spin and weave.
And he said that the boys would learnhow to play the violin like him.
If.
I would go back with himand , I was only 15 years old.
That's when I realized that thiswas not just a one time thing.
He was saying that I would have morechildren with him and that I was
to service him as his concubine.
(25:00):
I didn't know what that word meant.
So I looked it up and it comesfrom some Latin calm meaning
with, and kuba meaning lie down.
And so that's what mylife was going to be.
I was gonna lie down with himand serve him as a wife, would,
but not be married to him.
I was, and would remain enslaved to him.
So I did, I went back to Virginia
(25:21):
For your children.
For my children and mysupport for my mother.
But when I got back toVirginia, my baby died, baby.
And he waited.
And then you'd be walking inthe hallways and then still
he would look at me and then.
Venu POIs, he came for me.
(25:43):
He always came for me.
He would go away to Williamsburgor Richmond or Washington.
And then when he came back,he came for me, and then nine
months later I would have a baby.
, I'm just super confused as towhy, , why does he not announce
that, , when you start having childrenwith him that they are his children?
What would be the consequencesfor him if he did that?
(26:05):
I.
Oh, that is a very good question.
Well, for one thing.
There was steep penalties for men, whitemen who violated the anti miscegenation
law or statute, whatever it was.
There was a law against that.
He could face political and socialostracism if he admitted it.
(26:28):
And so he didn't, he said nothing.
He never said anything.
It was a crime against natureaccording to the state of Virginia.
Against nature.
yes, because white men, , they'renot supposed to do that.
But it's also, it's not funny, butit's all the white men did it, all
the enslavers, they all did it.
(26:50):
It's just what they did.
And
Geez,
the strange thing is that, , hedid not believe in slavery.
least that's what he said.
right.
this from the man who wrote, we holdthese truths to be self-evident.
That all men are created equaland endowed by their creator with
certain unalienable rights, life,liberty in the pursuit of happiness.
(27:12):
He said, all men are created equal,but he did not really mean all in
that word, all because he did notinclude the enslaved in that word.
All because enslaved peopleare not considered to be men.
The enslaved are property.
And even though he called the Instituteof Slavery, an abominable crime
(27:33):
and moral depravity, he continuedto own people his whole life.
And he said women were morevaluable than men because he
could make a 4% profit every year.
Since the birth of black childrenwho then became enslaved were an
investment strategy for the future.
Parties sequitur rum thatwhich is born follows the womb.
So when you're enslaved by somebody andyou know that somebody like Jefferson is
(27:59):
hoping that you will have children becausethen he gets his 4% return on his money.
Are you intentionallytrying not to have children?
I mean, not in your case,but generally speaking,
, my first time I was only 15 years old.
What did I know?
did I know about relationsbetween men and women?
(28:20):
I did not know anything.
yeah.
when I was in France and mymother wasn't there to talk to me.
I don't know.
Now that you know how this all turned out.
Do you wish that youwould've stayed in France?
Do you wish you, I mean, your motherwould've certainly understood, right?
She would've understood, butI don't, I would be alone.
(28:40):
It takes time to set up alife, find a place to live,
people who you can depend upon.
I mean, isn't that whatyour family is for?
Yeah.
that's what your family is for.
I don't, and plus I didn't, I guessthat was the only decision that I
(29:01):
ever really made was to go back.
I could have said, or goback the rest of my life.
never, I never made any decisions.
How could I make any decisions?
I was enslaved.
People told me what todo and that's what I did.
The.
thing is that, , I had six children,but we weren't even considered
(29:23):
his family, not his real family.
They called us his enslavedshadow family, and they called
my children his yellow children.
And their property, not human subhumanbelonging to him, forced to work and obey
and be used at the enslavers pleasure.
mean I had been used byhim for almost 40 years.
Used like a wife, but not his wife.
(29:45):
And that's just like all the enslavedwomen who had yellow children
with their enslavers in Virginia.
And it's not unusual in Virginia.
He's no different from other men.
All the white men did it.
It's just not talked about.
It's considered a private matter.
And when visitors would come here toMonticello and they would see enslaved
children working as house servants,children who looked like him, tall,
(30:07):
skin, reddish hair, nobody said anything.
Did his, did your children havereddish hair and lighter skin?
Y yes,
Okay.
My whole family have been enslavedsince the day they were born.
I have been enslavedsince the day I was born.
My mother, my sisters, brothers,uncles, aunts, cousins, they
were enslaved since the day theywere born, but not our fathers.
(30:30):
Our fathers were not enslaved because ourfathers were the enslavers generations
of enslavers mating with enslaved women.
My grandfather, captain Hemmings, hewas a white Englishman on a trading
ship who came to Virginia and hetook my African grandmother and
gave her a child that was my mother.
Now, the white Englishman, the Africangrandmother that made my mother
(30:52):
half white and half black, , theycalled her a mulatto, and Captain
Hemmings happened to be in the Portof Williamsburg, and he acknowledged
that he had fathered this child andhe tried to purchase her from Mr.
Wales, but Mr. Wales would notpart with that child that was my
mother because he wanted to see.
What this half black and half whitemulatto child was going to be like.
(31:16):
So Captain Hemmings went back onhis way and left my mother there.
And so my mother washalf white, half black.
And then there was my father.
Now my father, John Wales, he wasmarried three times to white women,
but all of his white wives died.
(31:38):
And so I guess that's why hetook my half white, half black
mulatto mother and I think he was20 years older than my mother.
And so he took her and had six children.
John Wales, my father already had fourdaughters from his three dead white wives.
And my sister, half sister Martha.
(31:59):
She was one of John Wales' daughters.
And.
So when my mother had me and mybrothers and sisters, they call us
Quadron because that makes us threequarters white and one quarter black.
That's a quadron.
(32:20):
So Mulatto is half and Quadroonis three quarters, one quarter.
So you are mostly white
That is correct.
That is
and.
the interesting thing about those words,mulatto I, never knew what that was, and
so I, I looked it up and I found out thatmulatto comes from Spanish or Portuguese
(32:42):
word, I'm not sure, meaning mule,because they looked upon my mother mule.
Because a mule is the result ofthe mating of a horse and a donkey.
In this instance, the horse beingmy father and the donkey being
my grandmother, and that madethe mule, which was my mother.
(33:04):
So they called her a mulatto.
And then
Wow.
was with my father, John Wales, to havesix children who are , quad meaning
four, because like you said, I was threequarters white and one quarter black.
So
mm-hmm.
quarters and one quarter.
(33:25):
so then when my half sister had beendead for many years and her husband,
I. Came from me and I had six children.
Six must be the magicnumber children are called.
They're seven eighthswhite and one eighth black.
So you can see if they'reseven eighths white.
(33:47):
They're pretty white.
Yeah.
thing is that in the state of Virginia,if you are a quadroon, census,
they'll put you down as white,except your mother was a slave.
So even though my children seven eighthswhite, because enslaved and their mother
(34:09):
part sequitur rum, that which is born
Yeah,
the womb.
they still didn't qualify.
No, they did not.
Wow.
So your children, couldyour children pass as white?
Could you pass as white?
I don't think that I could pass as white,even though somebody on the on Monticello
(34:30):
described me as dawn near white.
But my children, my eldest son,Beverly, and my daughter Harriet,
I remember I told you that they ranaway when they reached the age of 21
Right.
and they went to Washingtonand they lived as white.
They
Oh, they did?
they, yes they passed as white, andthat's when I say I never saw them again.
(34:53):
I did not because they could neversee me again because did not
want to be known as being black.
Did they write to you?
Is this how you, youreceived this information?
Well.
Beverly left first 'cause he was alittle older, and then Harriet left
and Mr. Jefferson gave Harriet $50.
(35:15):
Well, he didn't give it to her.
He gave the oversee of $50 togive Harriet to start her new life
in Washington with her brother.
And he also arranged for a stagecoach to take her to Washington.
So they knew that Beverlywas in Washington and then
I see.
knew that she was
And so Mr. Jeffers, presidentJefferson gave her $50 so she could
go start her new life, correct?
(35:36):
That's what you're saying.
That is right.
Okay.
And so, but earlier you had said thatthat you, that they escaped, but that
doesn't sound like they escaped at all.
It sounds like he helped them escape.
Is that, is that.
no.
Beverly ran away.
they had always known, or at least I toldthem, that he promised that when they
(35:59):
reached the age of 21, he would free them,but he didn't, because usually when you
free someone, you get some sort of papers.
Beverly did not get any sort ofpapers, and he had enough, so
he just took off and he left.
Now there were other people who wereenslaved on Monticello if they ran away.
Mr. Jefferson sent people to findhim and bring him back, but they did
(36:21):
not, he did not do that to Beverly,and he didn't give Beverly anything.
He only gave Harriet $50and the stage coach, and,
Okay, now I.
she was going to run to, you know,she was gonna run and she was gonna
go with her brother, and so she did.
She left.
Okay, that Now I understand.
So . It sounds like everybody knewthat, that he had agreed with you
(36:44):
that they could leave when they were21, and then they reached that age,
and then Beverly said, that's it.
I'm done with this.
I'm outta here.
And then he just didn't chase thembecause whatever his justification that
he gave, but probably knew that he'd madethis promise to you, it'd be my guess.
Does that sound about right?
yes.
That was his solemn promise that heswore to me when we were in Paris that
(37:08):
they would be freed when they were 21.
It has to be very difficult to honora solemn promise from, from him,
considering the way that he treated you.
well, the problem was that Istill had two younger children.
Even though I had six children, onlyfour of them lived to adulthood,
(37:28):
Mm-hmm.
had Madison and Eston, andthen that was when he got sick.
Mr. Jefferson was sick and he didnot free , my last two children.
And I was wondering what was going tohappen with that because he was sick and
eventually , he was confined to his bed.
He was in a lot of pain.
(37:50):
And eventually he became,what's the word, stuporous.
Became stuporous.
He had swollen legs, painfuljoints, a fractured left wrist,
a boil on his jaw, deafness.
And then,, at one point when he was,before he was confined to his bed.
He had been sick for eight years, inspite of his pain, he was still riding
(38:12):
slowly and with difficulty, and inspite of his pain, he took daily rides
on horseback, but then very, all ofa sudden he, he was in too much pain
and he did not recognize anybody.
He did not recognize his daughters.
He did not recognize hisphysician, his grandchildren.
He did not recognize me.
He did not recognize my boys.
He didn't recognize anyone.
(38:33):
And so I was wonderingwhat was gonna happen.
my boys gonna run?
And if he dies, if Mr. Jefferson dies,which, and he was very sick, he was
83 years old, what's going to happen?
Are they gonna send people to go get mychildren if they don't have any papers?
I did not know I was.
(38:53):
I was very worried about that becauseMr. Jefferson was in incredible debt.
He owed $107,000
Geez.
He was in so much debt, and hiscreditors did not hound him because
he was the president, but theywere, I felt sure that his creditors
were not gonna do that to Polly.
(39:16):
And Patsy, his daughters.
Yeah.
I'm sure that his creditorswanted their money once he died
Oh, that is a lot.
Can you even imagine whatit must have been like to be
Sally Hemmings in that moment?
She'd been promised freedom by oneof the most powerful men in the
nation, but he's already forgottenhis own family at this point.
(39:38):
How in the world is he gonna remembera promise made to someone he enslaved?
After all, nobody's gonna believe her.
What will happen to her, whatwill happen to her children.
In the next episode, Sally'sgonna finish the story and share
how things ended as well as whereshe is in her life right now.
I'm glad that you're enjoying thispodcast, and if you haven't yet,
subscribe now and we'll see you at thenext episode of The Calling History
(40:00):
podcast with part two of Sally Hemmings.
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