January 8, 2025 • 53 mins
In Part 2 of the 1801 conversation with Samuel Adams, you’ll hear what happened when Sam was given a slave woman. He’ll also talk about his connections with the Sons of Liberty and how close he was to being assassinated.
Listen to the Calling History Podcast on Spotify, Google, Apple, or your favorite provider.
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Tom Niewulis’ deep understanding of the American Founding Fathers and his passion for the principles of liberty shine brightly in his portrayal of Samuel Adams. With over 30 years immersed in the political and historical arenas, Tom’s journey began during his military service when he developed an intimate study of the U.S. Constitution and its amendments. Tom has long believed in the role of faith, morality, and virtue as cornerstones of America’s cultural and political renewal—principles that echo through Samuel Adams' life and work.
Tom’s portrayal is steeped in authenticity, driven by his extensive reading of original Founding documents. His insights challenge modern interpretations of history, reminding listeners of the Founders’ intent—particularly their nuanced views on religion and governance.
Learn more about Tom at: samueladamsreturns.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Welcome back to part two of Samuel Adams.
Before we get into it, we did get alittle bit behind during the holidays,
and the next episode won't be outuntil the first Wednesday of February.
In the last episode, we learnedthat Sam Adams is an educated
man with deep religious beliefs.
We learned that he really doesn'tcare about business or making money.
But he cares deeply aboutliberty and fairness.
(00:50):
In this episode, we're going totalk about beer a little bit.
We're going to talk aboutthe one time that he almost
had a slave but then didn't.
And then another time wherehe was nearly assassinated.
I was reading something a couple ofdays ago and they were talking about
after the destruction of the T, afterthat day that there were lots of
witnesses And nobody saw anything.
(01:13):
? How do you contain that?
Well, I would say that they saw, theyknew, but the Tories that despised the
Patriot movement to such a degree thatthey would let the powers to be know.
But it was already well known whopotentially would be the instigators.
(01:33):
It was pretty well known whowere some of the members of
the Sons of Liberty, not all.
But at the same time, theexpectation would be that, oh,
the government knows this and whatare they going to do about it?
Without having, at that time, abloody insurrection on the part of the
(01:57):
government, is the way that I wouldlook at it, versus what they would
do in, again, firing upon, or takinginto custody, and somewhat unjustly
causing issues throughout the citizenry.
It would have been a riotous.
. I quelled more riots thanwhat I'm blamed for starting.
(02:23):
Really?
Yes, there were a numberof them that would come in.
And as you may know, is thatthe governor's mansion at one
point in time was ransacked andpersonal property and papers.
We're being destroyed and it wasmyself that called into that crowd
and into the, those rioters to justcease and desist what they were doing
(02:49):
because they had no right to destroypersonal property like they did.
And there were other instances whenthere would have been moments of.
activity and it just did notmake sense at that point in time.
What was it that we were looking forin trying to develop our liberties?
(03:10):
And if you instigate something tothat level, is it really Getting
your cause moving forward, insteadof being that rebellious mob.
Instead of being an organized peoplethat can affect the change in government.
(03:31):
Are you talking about when they ransackedgovernor, I think it was Hutchinson's
Yes,
So you tried to stand in the way of thatand say, Whoa, this is a little too much.
We don't need to be throwing picturesout the window and burning his clothes.
That's what you're
saying.
And were there not times where youinstigated the mob and said, we
need to go tar and feather this guy?
(03:52):
Well, of course.
Well,
where's the personal property there?
I mean, I would rather you throw mypicture out the window than light
me on fire or cover me in tar.
Well, Well, let's have thatin the light of the moment.
Those people did act, again, at that.
It was, the instigation was to stopwhat was happening with the tax
(04:13):
collectors and the injustice of that.
Taking it too far and tar andfeathering was, again, , destructive
not only to property but to a person.
And that was when a mobdoes get out of control.
So.
Lesson that was well taken from that ishow is it that you take and Encourage
(04:35):
your people to act but encourage themto act in a manner that is not going to
even put their own Persons in jeopardy.
So speaking of that as far as goingtoo far, were there times as you
look back at your life where you feellike, okay, I went too far there.
(04:55):
I'm having a hard time recallingany time that I would have looked
at that My personal approach to lookat how we would need to interact
was that what was the greater valuewithin the necessity to do something
(05:16):
and ensuring that the overall, thecitizenry would benefit from the action.
And in doing that, itdoes take a long time.
a hard look into what would occur.
But as I look back, there's notan instance of anything that I
participated in over all these manyyears that I can say, . I didn't
(05:42):
want to do that or needed to do that.
I can't reflect on that in any othermanner than it was the necessity
to move this nation forward.
Do you recall, was there a time whereyou tarred and feathered a tax collector?
Not personally, I don't recall that.
. You were a tax collector at one
(06:03):
I was, yes.
How'd you enjoy that?
I despised it.
How in the world do youbecome a tax collector?
I mean, you might as well bethe king, you know what I mean?
That seems just as likely to me.
Well, I was elected to the position.
And if you know whole of it all, is thatI would not collect the taxes of those
(06:24):
that I did not think could afford it.
And because of that, the governor,actually sent the sheriff to confiscate
all my personal property to pay for allthose taxes, which I did not collect.
And at that point, the people didintervene for me and took it upon
themselves to make sure all ofthose back taxes were resolved.
(06:48):
So my being a tax collector was one tolook at what is the justice in the tax?
Where was it that it, made sensethat it should be collected and who
had the capacity to pay at the timethat it needed to be collected.
I see.
So when you're out collecting taxes,you ride your horse up to a house and
(07:12):
then there is a single mother with threekids, her husband died in some war and
she has no income and she owes some tax.
You will look at that situation andsay, well, how can we charge her a tax?
You know, then she can't feed her kids.
And so you don't, Collect that andthen you're responsible for it.
Is that how it works?
I was personally responsible for allthe taxes that were to be collected.
(07:36):
And if you were to squeeze her and Imean that in a I don't mean exactly
actually squeeze her But if you wereto push her and say look, I don't
want to hear your sad story Thenhow does it work as a tax collector?
Do you get a portion of what you collect?
There was a stipend that the tax collectorreceived based on the fact of being
(07:57):
an elected person, but not anythingthat would be immoral as to take more
than what would have been taxed, butin the instance that you described of
that particular person, in my opinion,she should not have been taxed.
gosh that talk about a jobthat was never gonna fit you.
(08:19):
That was it right
there That was it.
So
that, that
was, I'm sorry, but that, thatwas as bad as being in Mr.
Cushing's counting house.
It did not do well for me.
What was that?
What did you do
That was my first job as Imentioned, my father was able
to get me a position in Mr.
(08:40):
Cushing's accounting firm.
And the idea of sitting thereand doing numbers and the Tits
and toddles did not appeal.
So I spent the majority of mytime at various meetings, public
meetings, or private meetings todiscuss the issues of the day.
(09:01):
And as a result Mr.
Cushing did let me go.
So that's,
That was when you said you got fired.
That was the job you got fired from.
that doesn't seem like a very good fit.
Let's talk about yourability to influence people.
I think that obviously you are awell educated man going to Harvard,
certainly and a prolific writer for sure.
(09:24):
, you clearly have a, the ability to inspirepeople , that are less educated, that
are trying to figure out what they'resupposed to do and certainly educated.
But do you have, is there amethod that you have to this?
Is there a theory that you have on this?
It was to be able to approach peopleregarding the issues of the day.
, these were already issues that they.
(09:46):
were living in and through, and some maynot necessarily have had the words to
express it themselves, but having satand listened and talked with people and
met with people, it was then puttingthat into writing and putting it into the
(10:06):
expressions of, , I heard from others aswell as then from the historical truth
of knowing our English constitution,as you well know, loosely written,
but English law and understanding Mr.
Blackstone, Mr.
(10:26):
Blackstone was one of the , well read,books in the Americas and to understand,
and I think it might have been thatgentleman, . General Gage that you
talked to he did not have a very kindthing to say about the colonists and
that, , we were all little flitterswith the law because so many had
(10:49):
read Blackstone and understood theEnglish law and constitution better
than many sitting in parliament.
So being able to take that intoaccount, take the issues of what
was happening in the day and beingable then to put that to pen so that
(11:10):
others were able to agree or disagree.
Those that were suffering thehand of tyranny and despotism.
agreed with what I would say.
The Tories, on the other hand, whowere locked into their thought process
and were benefiting from what was inthat established monarchical rule,
(11:34):
they would not take it to hand.
So you weren't necessarilytrying to influence everybody.
You just knew that there was a groupof people like you that were fed up
with stamp taxes and sugar taxes and.
Sending nails across the ocean, or,, iron across the ocean to make nails.
You knew there were people fed up, andyou were just trying to put it into
(11:54):
writing so they could get on board.
Correct.
And if you look at Many of the articles orpamphlets that I wrote, it draws on those
common principles of liberty, of rights.
What are the rights of an Englishman?
How is that?
, how is that being affected bythe policies being put in place
(12:16):
and the rules and taxation thatare coming out of Parliament?
And addressing it from aperspective, especially to the
king, and appealing to him.
To that idea that we were charteredthrough him to live in a way
that we were originally doing.
(12:37):
And where those violations by alegislative body that we did not
have direct representation in.
And you have to understand there wereareas in England that also did not
have representation in Parliament.
And they were also Additionally, underthe same types of travesties and despotism
(12:59):
or tyrannies that we were in the colonieswithin the mother country itself.
So that's why there was commonalityin what we were doing in the
Americas by a number of differentpeople and even some in parliament.
They're just out of touch with theregular citizens, and even some of
the regions of the motherland werebeing treated in the same way that
(13:21):
the colonists were being treated?
Is that what you're saying?
Correct?
Yes.
And again, when it takes three monthsto travel and get messages across to
How is it that you can govern well?
And other than implementing thoseideas and policies of that, as you
(13:46):
mentioned out of touch group ofpeople, the governor is looking at
maintaining his own point of reference.
And remember, he wouldget a nice retirement.
, where is it that you can govern wellif you're not governing locally?
(14:07):
And that was one thing thatI would say over and over is
all good government is local.
And that's what we didn't have.
With such a distance between us byhaving to cross over the Atlantic,
How in the world can you get anythingdone with three months apart?
I mean, King sends aletter, how are things?
(14:30):
Three months later hegets a response, Good!
How about with you?
I mean, you'd never get anything done.
correct?
And the expectation of that was,in the early charters, were to
give, , some sense of self government.
and self governing.
And that is where we started tohave a number of our disputes.
(14:50):
And again, it goes back to bothtrade and then it also started to
fall into the realm of , how wouldthe Church of England come in and
especially in the Northern colonies.
So there were so many, you know, Areasthat started to impact economically,
as well as then in personal consciencethat drove us into the decisions that we
(15:15):
ultimately made, but as you were askingearlier, also influenced my writings.
Concerning your writings, whatare some , of your most important
writings in your opinion?
The first and most important wouldbe the the rights of the colonist.
Because it was going back and reviewingfor the people and also was an appeal,
(15:35):
not just to the king, but it was an appealto the world of our rights as Englishmen
and that we were those people of thesame blood as those that were in England
and for the whole world to hear that thecharges that we were laying against the
king for violating the his relationshipand charter some of the other writings,
(16:00):
the articles that I wrote as Candidas weresome of the articles that I felt had the
most impact in my early writings and theperiods around 1748, 1750 and that period.
So that pseudonym was one.
from that Roman general that I carriedforward in trying to make that effort on.
(16:25):
looking at the tyranny that was going on.
There was one that I recall and Ican't recall the detail of, but it was
in reference to some of the squabblethat was happening on a theological
basis as well within the colony betweenthe Anglicans and the Puritans and
(16:47):
where we were trying to look at thecongregationalists and seeing where
We're, the imposition of what they wantedto do with bishopry from an Anglican
position was not where we saw from aCongregationalist Puritan perspective.
And I did take and write a couplearticles in reference to that as well.
(17:10):
So just a.
Several off the top of my head.
As you were saying before, when youare writing and you are trying to
influence people, and I'm thinking maybeinfluence people isn't the right word.
It seems like you're trying to find thepeople that believe the way that you
believe or are suffering in the way thatyou feel that many people are suffering
(17:33):
rather than specifically influence.
Is that correct?
Yes.
I would say that it wasduring which period?
In some cases it was already what peopleknew and felt and were trying to express
and to bring it to light and to try andcommunicate to those elsewhere as to what
is happening in Massachusetts relative towhat is happening in Virginia or what is
(17:56):
happening in New York or one of the othercolonies in Georgia or the Carolinas.
And find that commonality of, look,you're not alone, or are we alone?
Or that drove it to the idea of then whatwould be the committees of correspondence
(18:17):
early on during the revolution itself.
We did a lot of that in NewEngland, but for that to work and
that to carry forward, We neededVirginia to take the lead on it.
And so I did take a hand in holding backon what we were doing in Massachusetts
(18:41):
and having that become predominant,but encouraging through other letters
for Virginia to take a lead onthat committee of correspondence.
So then we would develop a communicationfront across all of the various colonies.
So influencing at different times.
(19:02):
When it was necessitated.
Otherwise, it was drawing others intowhat they already knew and to take
and solidify all of that thinking andbeliefs in such a way that where did
it require then the appropriate action.
(19:23):
That actually makes a lot more sense.
And and thank you for clearing that up.
And I want to ask you about thecommittees of correspondence, because
I've had a revelation about this asI was preparing to speak with you.
But before I do that, how does your methodof communicating through your writings,
as you've described, compare to yourmethod of getting people fired up when
(19:47):
you're sitting in the bars, having a beer,
I would have to say thatthere was more listening.
If you're sitting and having a beer, therewould be enough emotion to go around.
And so it would be, how do you take andlisten to determine then to direct with
(20:07):
others and allow them to direct theirideas and emotions in a productive manner.
So the writing would be very much similar.
Is that after hearing what wasgoing on either in the legislature,
through the letters of the king,the dictates of the governor, or
(20:30):
with every person on the street.
then it would come together in thewritings to be able to say, okay, look
at the governor here and challenge himon those policies that he's promulgating
and to get the people then to take andsupport the legislature in any activities
(20:53):
that it would try to do to change policybased on what the legislature could do.
And it was always about How dopeople influence government?
How do they influence the governed?
So do you do that by having conversations?
Absolutely.
(21:14):
And do you do that through the pen,which then gives you the ability
to communicate with more than thosethat are sitting at table with you?
So I believe that's the directions thatI use to look at how is it that we can
bring the people together, And what theyshould know and already have in their
(21:36):
hearts of their ideas of self governingand ensuring that their voices are heard
in the best way that I possibly could.
I see.
So the time in the taverns was almost likeresearch for what needed to be written.
It was being a part of thecommunity, especially as someone
(21:57):
that was elected to office.
It was a necessity to be able todo what needed to be accomplished.
So being there is, was part of the,what I saw is not as much as research.
I never thought of it that way, butas understanding, What the needs of my
fellow citizens were, or what they weretrying to express based on the issues
(22:22):
that were affecting their lives, thatwas a good place to, to be for that.
You can't help all these people thatyou want to help if you're not in touch
with what they need and what they'refeeling and what they're struggling with.
That makes a lot of sense.
that's correct.
And just to, as a side note of thatwas one of the areas that I was very
upset with in the Constitution of87, was the lack of representation.
(22:46):
How in the world can one personrepresent 30, 000 people?
I can't, it's unimaginable in mymind when I know how we, just in
the Massachusetts legislature,there was maybe a couple thousand
people each legislator represented.
(23:06):
So in the 87 Constitution, , sowhat did you do about that?
The fact that you had one personrepresenting too many people?
Well, we tried to see aboutgetting it amended, But that was
the original First Amendment.
If you study the history of the amendmentsthat were submitted, that was one of the
amendments that were submitted to theto the Congress, was to take and reduce
(23:30):
the number of citizens and increase thenumber of representatives per population.
Smart.
If it's got to be local, if it onlyworks, if it's local, You can't have 30,
000 people represented by one person.
There's no way that personcould get their voice
I know.
And that's, so Congress continued that,the House of Representatives, under
(23:52):
the Constitution of the United States.
That was what held.
And I do hope that is still the number ofcitizens to representative in your future.
Well, I'm going to tellyou this in the future.
We don't get everything right.
There's a lot of things we getright, but it, it is a work in
progress as it was during your time.
(24:14):
And I suspect 200 years from nowpeople will be saying the same thing.
It's always going tobe a work in progress.
It's always going to be brokenand on its way to being fixed,
but never quite all the way.
But I think that might be okay.
When I was preparing for thisconversation and I was reading about
the committees of correspondence,one thing about this organization or
(24:34):
this process that you had that I justcould never understand it is the name.
It is just, the name is so like, itjust doesn't catch your attention.
I know that sounds simple, but itwas almost too boring for me to read
about it every time I would see it.
And then I started.
preparing to have this conversation withyou and I got really interested because
(24:55):
This is something that you either startedor played a big role in starting and
this is very important And is that right?
This is this something you started?
In the Massachusetts colonies I did.
It was very important to be able tocommunicate with the other districts
throughout Massachusetts and theninto Connecticut and Rhode Island.
(25:16):
A lot of the issues were common issuesand how do we draw that together?
How can we come back andspeak in a very similar voice?
And for a period of time, , theyconsolidated Rhode Island and once again,
Connecticut towards Massachusetts, andit was no, they, they have their separate
(25:36):
their separate entities, but at thesame time, we need to be able to know
that we're definitely of the same mindand direction that we needed to have.
And then Virginia began, New York as well.
We sent people in there to say,okay, we need to be able to
communicate at a larger scale.
(25:58):
And it grew from there.
And once again, I did try to encourageVirginia to take the lead on that, to
make sure that , it wasn't being drivenjust from the Northern colony, because
we were seeing enough as a troublemaker.
And it was it was a necessityto have the Southern colonies.
(26:19):
come together a stronger format with usand their committees and correspondence
became that format by which we wereable to communicate effectively.
So is the the committee of correspondenceam I right to say that this is then
just a network that allows all of thecolonies to communicate with one another.
(26:42):
A network that didn't exist prior toyou either creating or fine tuning it.
Correct.
It was a means of communication onthe common issues of the day and in
a manner that would then be able todraw us together to some points of
not only questioning, but actionableconcepts and items and methodologies.
(27:07):
There is absolutely no chance that thecolonies, the colonists stand up against
what the English were sending over, without that committee of correspondence.
Do you agree with that?
I would agree.
It brought us together quite a bit.
And you have to understand as well.
That in Boston at the time, that wedid in particular have a committee of
(27:31):
safety and I was elected to head thatcommittee of safety and even though
there were the regular troops that werecoming in, we did exercise the citizenry
in small arms drills and activities.
We were making sure that thefamilies knew how to take care of
(27:53):
themselves in times of trouble.
And it was very effective Ultimately,when Boston was embargoed, if you
will, when we were blockaded as you'rewell aware, Boston is a peninsula to
the extent that they were able to theBritish set up a blockade across that
(28:14):
peninsula where The only way that we wereable to get our food and other goods in
was across the Charles River and that.
But we did exercise our rightsat that time as free citizens
to gather in military formationsand , do small arms drills too.
So when I talked to General Gage theCommittee of Safety came up and he
(28:39):
was laughing about the name of that.
So what actually is, if you're gonnaput it in a sentence or two, what
actually is the Committee of Safety?
What is it?
Committee of Safety is the Organizationof the citizens for self protection.
So I would in a second sentence is Iwould put that as the beginning of the
(29:00):
militia because the militia was allowedeven under our charter for self protection
or protection even to the frontier.
So it was it was simply taken outthe militaristic term of militia
gathering to the committee of safety.
Okay, so I'm gonna be tarred andfeathered myself by people who
(29:24):
listen to this if I don't ask youif you make beer Or have made beer
No, that, that is I, some, for somereason I've had that question before.
My father, we had a malthouse on our property.
So we, were malters and you were askingof one of the disparaging names that I
(29:47):
had and it was Sam the Maltser and Itwas even to the effect when I'd work
in the malt house That if you're notfamiliar with that At that process at all
when you're in there and you're tryingto work with that malt You actually
acquire some of the aromas of that malt.
So, for myself to go out intopublic without preparing necessarily
(30:13):
to go, I did have a sweet aromathat caused people to stand off.
And I thought it might havebeen my personality, but I
knew much better than that.
Sam the Molster, huh,
Yes.
but you don't have some Brandof beer some family name that
you guys are the greatest beerproducers ever that never happened
No.
(30:34):
No.
We were, we strictly were the producersof malt for those that were brewers.
What about slavery?
, that becomes a big thing overthe next few years for sure.
And what are your views on that?
, I read something that you're the onlyfounding father that never owned a slave.
Is that correct?
That's absolutely correct.
(30:54):
I was absolutely against slavery inthe context that it was in the Americas
and taking and bringing people overthe way that they were brought over.
Biblically, slavery had its placesand purposes, if you understand
that concept of it, but totake and to force people over.
(31:17):
away from their homes and the methodsthat were being used by the English
originally and then carried eveninto this period of time with Mr.
Jefferson.
My wife Elizabeth was given a blackwoman and she came home with her
and I refused to have her livein the house unless she was free.
(31:40):
And so I told her she was a free womanand she's lived with us ever since.
She was part of my family andstill is part of my family.
And she's participated and helped live inour household as a family member, helped
even as I would educate our children.
(32:02):
And at this point, sadlysay my son has passed.
But I, I thought slavery in the contextthat England brought it to bear and then
how it's been carried out in throughoutthe colonies and then these United States
now has been a travesty to humanity.
I'm not at all surprised that youhave these feelings, for sure.
(32:26):
But if this black woman that lives inyour house and is a part of your family
one day said, , I think I'm gonnamove, and I'm gonna go to I don't know,
she's gonna go to Connecticut, right?
You'd say, okay, thanks a lot.
Yes.
She, I said, she's a free woman.
She can do as she pleases.
. That's a hard position to takewith so many people owning slaves.
(32:48):
Good for you.
Education.
You have some strong feelingsabout education, don't you?
I do.
Absolutely do.
What do you think about , in ademocracy, people have a vote.
People have , one vote . Theyrepresent, one of whatever the total is.
But as you know, there's a lotof people that are not educated
(33:09):
at all and can be manipulated.
In fact, I think you would argue that,you might argue that the Tories have
been manipulated to believe that it'sgood for them to have pay stamp taxes
and be under the rule of the king.
, is that where education comes intothis to get those people to understand,
, what is right and what is wrong?
, what are your thoughts on that?
(33:29):
First, I think you need to understand, andyou may have been misguided, the ability
of the people to read for themselvesin the colonies has always been in
that 80 plus percent of the population.
(33:50):
So for them to have a formaleducation in mathematics and history
and sciences has nothing to do withthe family educations that they
received in their ability to read.
Not everybody may have been ableto write in a script format.
(34:11):
But they had the ability andhave the ability to read so that
they could understand what was inprint and the issues of the day.
My heart in education was firstand foremost, as I wrote not only
to my cousin, John, when he was apresident, but also as governor.
(34:33):
to the state legislature that thepurpose of education would be first
and foremost that these would be moralindividuals that would have a capacity
for self government and that they wouldbe educated not only in the religious
principles of the truth of the daybut also that they would be educated
(34:56):
in how government should function.
And what does that mean, then, for theConstitution of Massachusetts, and then
the Constitution of the United States?
If someone is unintelligent,or lacks the knowledge of
(35:18):
functionality in how governmentshould work, Then you're correct.
They will not be able to self governand they will not know how to vote
well, even though they have that vote.
As a free individual, and as you wellknow now, we're more of a republic
(35:39):
than a pure democracy, so making thosechoices for who will represent them only
can be done well if they understandhow that is supposed to function.
And then, for the opportunities intheir future, help them understand
the gifts of God that they werecreated as the person that they are in
(36:04):
mathematics and science and literature.
Then to be able to go into those areasof life that they have a capacity for,
the rest of that helps them to definewhat it is that , they're designed to do.
, that's my whole heart on education.
(36:26):
. Is it true that at one point youwere fifth in line to be president?
It is.
Would you have been a good president?
I don't know that I would.
I cannot say that I wouldn't know.
all of the, as I stated earlier, tohave all the good counsel around me
(36:48):
to help me function in that position.
So that was never anythingthat I desired to do.
I was reluctant even to take thegovernorship, but it was because of Mr.
Hancock passing away that I was broughtup from lieutenant governor to governor.
So to become president, that would havebeen a difficult one for me to ascend to.
(37:13):
Yeah.
Do you think a person couldbe a good president without
having strong religious beliefs?
I have a hard time
I'm going to be cautious with what I'mgoing to say is because I think that
Would this be the first timeyou've ever done that, by the way?
I'm kidding.
Keep going.
No I, there have been other times thatI was cautious of what I was saying,
(37:38):
especially when the young lieutenantwas sitting there with a pistol in
his hand, ready to assassinate meduring one of the town meetings.
So I was relativelycautious at that point.
But the, to be cautious now isbecause I look at the changes.
In what has happened, even from thetime of the beginning of the revolution,
(38:02):
what has happened within the contextof what is the meaning and idea of
religious and how we shifted throughoutthe teachings within the pulpits, if
you will, and how much the rise ofUnitarianism or Deism has come to play.
to the point that definition ofa religious perspective I do have
(38:25):
a lot of feeling around that.
My personal sense is that one needs tounderstand who is the ultimate sovereign
to be able to govern exceptionally well.
But I do believe, as with GeneralWashington, who, although he was Anglican,
was more of a deist, as well as I know mycousin was a Unitarian, so that is totally
(38:51):
different in a theological perspective.
And then now, with Mr.
Jefferson, who is a deist as well,if you will, the principles Of
those governing now are those ofthe principles of the revolution.
Their hearts and minds are focused onthose truths in such a way that, yeah, my
(39:18):
cousin John may have had some bad luck.
Blips because of what was going on withthe Federalists and Hamilton and Jay
and the, how they believe the structureshould be under the constitution.
And yes, those of us that are moreFederalist Republicans and that
have now are more in tune with Mr.
(39:40):
Jefferson in the DemocraticRepublican party format.
It all comes down to our principlesof the fight for independence.
Now, I believe you have tohave that to govern well.
(40:01):
Those principles are lost,then I don't know what your
world is going to look like.
We're definitely not going to justmention a , young lieutenant pointing
a pistol at your head, trying toassassinate you without hearing
what the rest of that story is.
What happened there?
Well, , I can't remember the exactspeech, but it was a large gathering
(40:24):
at Old South and it was in that momentof talking about one of the egregious
acts and what are we going to do andthe large gathering of the people there.
And this is when already theparliament is not happy with me at all.
(40:45):
But the young lieutenant actuallywas sitting at the steps for the
platform and he had his revolverunder a kerchief in his lap.
Actually, the kerchief was dropped by Mr.
Hancock, I believe.
It was Mr.
Hancock, or I don't recall theexact person, again at my age.
(41:08):
But I do recall that him sitting there atthe steps of the platform, and with the
full intention, I believe, to shoot me.
And one of our Patriot friends wentahead and dropped his kerchief over that
pistol, which obviously then stoppedhim from shooting me there at that time.
(41:32):
But it was a very tenuous momentin looking down and seeing someone
there, knowing that I was goingto go down for the fight, no
matter what, for our liberties.
And yet the intervention of coolerhands, if you will, took place.
For the cause of American liberty andthe freedom that I live under right
(41:54):
now, that would have been a terriblething because it seems to me that , this
flame of rebellion, that it wouldfire up sometimes and then it would
calm down and then it would fire upsometimes and then it would calm down.
And it appears from my endthat behind the scenes.
That you were the person behind that,that kept stoking that fire when it
(42:16):
would get too low, so until it eventuallycaught fire, which may have been that
moment in Concord and Lexington thatyou said where you raised your hands
in the air, and I just can't imaginewhat would have happened if that person
hadn't been there to stoke the fire.
Is that how you see it?
Not at all.
I think there were many others as well in,in other areas, in other of the colonies
(42:39):
at the time that were doing the same.
I mean, the young Patrick Henryin Virginia, there were Some of
the others, the Yates in New Yorkand then what was going on all
through even with Pennsylvaniaand when those that were in Dr.
Franklin's close circle of friends Iwould just say that I was just one person
(43:04):
that had the opportunities to be able tocommunicate the intent and emotions of
the people of the time in such a way thatwe were able to say enough is enough when
it came to , those tyrannies about us.
(43:25):
And I think it was well capturedagain, as we began with my friend young
friend Thomas Jefferson and composingthe Declaration of Independence.
Yes.
of the Thomases Thomas Paineobviously had something to say that
people wanted to hear just like you.
Do you have some feelings about him?
(43:47):
I think he was a brilliant young man.
Everything that he did with Common Sense.
If you really want to put a finger on thepulse of moving the revolution forward,
it would be his pamphlet Common Sense.
I give great credit towhat he wrote there.
(44:09):
My feelings at this age that I'm atare those where Now that he's been in
France for the period of time that hehas not, or I should rather say that he
has stepped away from any understandingof foundational biblical religion.
(44:31):
He's even gone further thanwhat I would qualify as a deist.
He's come against, become awriter of theology that is so
far away from his early days ofunderstanding, even in this nation.
that we had an exchange, a kindexchange via some letters and where
(44:56):
he tried to express his sentiments andtried to even do it with scriptures
and I have to reject all of that.
His early days, Brilliant.
As I said, I think that commonsense was the real catalyst for
what took the nation forward.
But now, in this time, this age,I would rather him stay with his
(45:22):
writing of common sense instead of hiswritings of reason, which are a true
attack on Christianity in particular.
Yeah, he definitely went adifferent direction where, of
course, stayed the same course.
Yes.
Do you think that where the republicis right now, do you think that maybe
(45:43):
after the revolution, that as theUnited States started to transform into
what it's becoming and what it willbe, do you think maybe that you're
not evolving at that same pace.
A number of my Detractors would havesaid that, may say that even now.
(46:03):
When I was considered for re electionas the governor of Massachusetts, there
was a lot of rhetoric against me, , basedon my age, and that I was not willing
to be other than what I am, Amen.
My steadfastness in my beliefs and in myrepublicanism and my religious beliefs.
(46:26):
So, that I would say is an honestcriticism at this present time and
even those few years ago when, as Imentioned, running or being elected for
governor when I was put up for that.
And I think this is where Mr.
Jefferson.
is also looking at why I'm soencouraged with him being the president.
(46:49):
As it goes back to the foundationalprinciples that is what holds the
people together, if they understand it.
That's why when we were talkingabout education, I was so adamant
about the education of the youngpeople, not only in their true
(47:10):
understanding of their religious, moral.
requirements, what good virtue is,but also what is good government
based on constitutionalism, andin particular our constitution.
Other than that, where we grow andhow the nation is growing in commerce,
(47:31):
I'm all for that and always have been.
I think that we need to, withan understanding different than
necessarily what the Federalists were,where that becomes the everything.
I think that's where Mr.
Jefferson is at.
such a differentiator and that hesees that we still need to maintain
a strong agrarian economy andnation and the thought processes
(47:56):
that go hand in hand with that.
Because once a people go too far intoelements of commerce only, from my
perspective as that old Puritan, is thattheir frivolity increases to the point
(48:16):
that they forget those basic fundamentalsand principles of good morality, of
good government, and then allow forall of the mechanisms of the excess
to overcome their general principles.
You can't build anything withoutthat solid foundation, can you?
(48:38):
Correct.
. Mr.
Adams, I am so thankful for allof your time and your service
in some of the darkest, mostdifficult times in our history.
I'm just so thankful.
And I just have twolast questions for you.
And then if there's anything you'd wantto add, I'd certainly love to hear it.
And that first question is, if youhad to look back during the early days
(48:59):
of you trying to, , fight for thesefreedoms and of the two allies that you.
Certainly had your cousin,John Adams and John Hancock.
If you could only have one of them andyou couldn't have the other supporting
you, which one would you want?
Because,
(49:20):
He even though he and I did have asmall falling out, Because as you
may be aware, he wanted to be thegeneral of the Revolutionary Forces,
and my preference was with Mr.
Washington.
His youth, areas of influence,and his desire for the same
(49:48):
freedoms, was my preference.
much akin to mine.
Whereas my cousin John was more subdued.
He didn't even want to get into thepolitical arena until I requested that he
come in and defend those British soldiersthat fired upon our citizens there in
(50:11):
Boston and having killed a couple of them.
oh, you pulled him in.
Yes, I did.
Yes.
And then from that point, , he becamemore active, but he was always more of
a reluctant soul, but of a great mind.
In many of his writings in his earlydays , in some of his writings in
(50:34):
relationship to the Constitution,I think was a brilliant work.
But if I was going to have someone atthat same period of time and could only
have one person with me definitely Mr.
Hancock.
. I appreciate you answering all myquestions and having this conversation
(50:54):
cause it really has been fantastic.
So thank you for all of your time.
Is there anything that you wouldlike to add to wrap this up?
The only thing that I can think isa great prayer that as my posterity,
you and the future would hold to thetruth and principles of our foundation.
(51:14):
And as you recognize that without that itcould only mean a travesty in governing.
That's perfect.
I appreciate your time so much and thankyou again, and I'll be wishing you the
And you're most welcome.
Thank you
What can I say?
This is nothing like what I expected.
I don't know why I expected SamuelAdams to be an uneducated hothead.
(51:38):
When the reality is that he's awell-educated man that was deeply involved
in political philosophy, religion, andwritings that moved people to take action.
He spent his life as a passionateadvocate for independence and played
a gigantic role in organizing protestslike the Boston Tea Party when he threw
his hands in the air, praying to Godafter the first shots and conquered, it
(52:02):
wasn't because he was dying to get to thebattle and see the bullets start flying.
It was because it meant he was onestep closer to the moment where the
people that he cared about in hiscommunity would be treated fairly
and never again be stripped of therights that they were all born with.
And if that meant fighting, so be it.
When I think about Thomas Paine andhis role in giving the people a voice
(52:24):
through his writing Common Sense, Iwonder if a fair way to describe Samuel
Adams would have been as the organizer.
Without somebody like him, wouldthe committees of correspondence
have turned into this powerfulcommunication network that it became?
Could someone else have pulledtogether a group of people that would
risk so much at the Boston Tea Party?
(52:46):
And would the Sons of Liberty have beenthe strong force that it became to see
things through despite the hardship?
Fortunately, that young lieutenantnever took the action that
would cause us never to know.
Thanks for listening, and don'tforget that when you tell a friend
about the Calling History podcast,a mosquito decides it's time to
(53:08):
switch to a plant based diet.
I'm Tony Dean, and untilnext time, I'm history.
Welcome back to part two of Samuel Adams.
Before we get into it, we did get alittle bit behind during the holidays,
and the next episode won't be outuntil the first Wednesday of February.
In the last episode, we learnedthat Sam Adams is an educated
man with deep religious beliefs.
We learned that he really doesn'tcare about business or making money.
But he cares deeply aboutliberty and fairness.
(00:50):
In this episode, we're going totalk about beer a little bit.
We're going to talk aboutthe one time that he almost
had a slave but then didn't.
And then another time wherehe was nearly assassinated.
I was reading something a couple ofdays ago and they were talking about
after the destruction of the T, afterthat day that there were lots of
witnesses And nobody saw anything.
(01:13):
? How do you contain that?
Well, I would say that they saw, theyknew, but the Tories that despised the
Patriot movement to such a degree thatthey would let the powers to be know.
But it was already well known whopotentially would be the instigators.
(01:33):
It was pretty well known whowere some of the members of
the Sons of Liberty, not all.
But at the same time, theexpectation would be that, oh,
the government knows this and whatare they going to do about it?
Without having, at that time, abloody insurrection on the part of the
(01:57):
government, is the way that I wouldlook at it, versus what they would
do in, again, firing upon, or takinginto custody, and somewhat unjustly
causing issues throughout the citizenry.
It would have been a riotous.
. I quelled more riots thanwhat I'm blamed for starting.
(02:23):
Really?
Yes, there were a numberof them that would come in.
And as you may know, is thatthe governor's mansion at one
point in time was ransacked andpersonal property and papers.
We're being destroyed and it wasmyself that called into that crowd
and into the, those rioters to justcease and desist what they were doing
(02:49):
because they had no right to destroypersonal property like they did.
And there were other instances whenthere would have been moments of.
activity and it just did notmake sense at that point in time.
What was it that we were looking forin trying to develop our liberties?
(03:10):
And if you instigate something tothat level, is it really Getting
your cause moving forward, insteadof being that rebellious mob.
Instead of being an organized peoplethat can affect the change in government.
(03:31):
Are you talking about when they ransackedgovernor, I think it was Hutchinson's
Yes,
So you tried to stand in the way of thatand say, Whoa, this is a little too much.
We don't need to be throwing picturesout the window and burning his clothes.
That's what you're
saying.
And were there not times where youinstigated the mob and said, we
need to go tar and feather this guy?
(03:52):
Well, of course.
Well,
where's the personal property there?
I mean, I would rather you throw mypicture out the window than light
me on fire or cover me in tar.
Well, Well, let's have thatin the light of the moment.
Those people did act, again, at that.
It was, the instigation was to stopwhat was happening with the tax
(04:13):
collectors and the injustice of that.
Taking it too far and tar andfeathering was, again, , destructive
not only to property but to a person.
And that was when a mobdoes get out of control.
So.
Lesson that was well taken from that ishow is it that you take and Encourage
(04:35):
your people to act but encourage themto act in a manner that is not going to
even put their own Persons in jeopardy.
So speaking of that as far as goingtoo far, were there times as you
look back at your life where you feellike, okay, I went too far there.
(04:55):
I'm having a hard time recallingany time that I would have looked
at that My personal approach to lookat how we would need to interact
was that what was the greater valuewithin the necessity to do something
(05:16):
and ensuring that the overall, thecitizenry would benefit from the action.
And in doing that, itdoes take a long time.
a hard look into what would occur.
But as I look back, there's notan instance of anything that I
participated in over all these manyyears that I can say, . I didn't
(05:42):
want to do that or needed to do that.
I can't reflect on that in any othermanner than it was the necessity
to move this nation forward.
Do you recall, was there a time whereyou tarred and feathered a tax collector?
Not personally, I don't recall that.
. You were a tax collector at one
(06:03):
I was, yes.
How'd you enjoy that?
I despised it.
How in the world do youbecome a tax collector?
I mean, you might as well bethe king, you know what I mean?
That seems just as likely to me.
Well, I was elected to the position.
And if you know whole of it all, is thatI would not collect the taxes of those
(06:24):
that I did not think could afford it.
And because of that, the governor,actually sent the sheriff to confiscate
all my personal property to pay for allthose taxes, which I did not collect.
And at that point, the people didintervene for me and took it upon
themselves to make sure all ofthose back taxes were resolved.
(06:48):
So my being a tax collector was one tolook at what is the justice in the tax?
Where was it that it, made sensethat it should be collected and who
had the capacity to pay at the timethat it needed to be collected.
I see.
So when you're out collecting taxes,you ride your horse up to a house and
(07:12):
then there is a single mother with threekids, her husband died in some war and
she has no income and she owes some tax.
You will look at that situation andsay, well, how can we charge her a tax?
You know, then she can't feed her kids.
And so you don't, Collect that andthen you're responsible for it.
Is that how it works?
I was personally responsible for allthe taxes that were to be collected.
(07:36):
And if you were to squeeze her and Imean that in a I don't mean exactly
actually squeeze her But if you wereto push her and say look, I don't
want to hear your sad story Thenhow does it work as a tax collector?
Do you get a portion of what you collect?
There was a stipend that the tax collectorreceived based on the fact of being
(07:57):
an elected person, but not anythingthat would be immoral as to take more
than what would have been taxed, butin the instance that you described of
that particular person, in my opinion,she should not have been taxed.
gosh that talk about a jobthat was never gonna fit you.
(08:19):
That was it right
there That was it.
So
that, that
was, I'm sorry, but that, thatwas as bad as being in Mr.
Cushing's counting house.
It did not do well for me.
What was that?
What did you do
That was my first job as Imentioned, my father was able
to get me a position in Mr.
(08:40):
Cushing's accounting firm.
And the idea of sitting thereand doing numbers and the Tits
and toddles did not appeal.
So I spent the majority of mytime at various meetings, public
meetings, or private meetings todiscuss the issues of the day.
(09:01):
And as a result Mr.
Cushing did let me go.
So that's,
That was when you said you got fired.
That was the job you got fired from.
that doesn't seem like a very good fit.
Let's talk about yourability to influence people.
I think that obviously you are awell educated man going to Harvard,
certainly and a prolific writer for sure.
(09:24):
, you clearly have a, the ability to inspirepeople , that are less educated, that
are trying to figure out what they'resupposed to do and certainly educated.
But do you have, is there amethod that you have to this?
Is there a theory that you have on this?
It was to be able to approach peopleregarding the issues of the day.
, these were already issues that they.
(09:46):
were living in and through, and some maynot necessarily have had the words to
express it themselves, but having satand listened and talked with people and
met with people, it was then puttingthat into writing and putting it into the
(10:06):
expressions of, , I heard from others aswell as then from the historical truth
of knowing our English constitution,as you well know, loosely written,
but English law and understanding Mr.
Blackstone, Mr.
(10:26):
Blackstone was one of the , well read,books in the Americas and to understand,
and I think it might have been thatgentleman, . General Gage that you
talked to he did not have a very kindthing to say about the colonists and
that, , we were all little flitterswith the law because so many had
(10:49):
read Blackstone and understood theEnglish law and constitution better
than many sitting in parliament.
So being able to take that intoaccount, take the issues of what
was happening in the day and beingable then to put that to pen so that
(11:10):
others were able to agree or disagree.
Those that were suffering thehand of tyranny and despotism.
agreed with what I would say.
The Tories, on the other hand, whowere locked into their thought process
and were benefiting from what was inthat established monarchical rule,
(11:34):
they would not take it to hand.
So you weren't necessarilytrying to influence everybody.
You just knew that there was a groupof people like you that were fed up
with stamp taxes and sugar taxes and.
Sending nails across the ocean, or,, iron across the ocean to make nails.
You knew there were people fed up, andyou were just trying to put it into
(11:54):
writing so they could get on board.
Correct.
And if you look at Many of the articles orpamphlets that I wrote, it draws on those
common principles of liberty, of rights.
What are the rights of an Englishman?
How is that?
, how is that being affected bythe policies being put in place
(12:16):
and the rules and taxation thatare coming out of Parliament?
And addressing it from aperspective, especially to the
king, and appealing to him.
To that idea that we were charteredthrough him to live in a way
that we were originally doing.
(12:37):
And where those violations by alegislative body that we did not
have direct representation in.
And you have to understand there wereareas in England that also did not
have representation in Parliament.
And they were also Additionally, underthe same types of travesties and despotism
(12:59):
or tyrannies that we were in the colonieswithin the mother country itself.
So that's why there was commonalityin what we were doing in the
Americas by a number of differentpeople and even some in parliament.
They're just out of touch with theregular citizens, and even some of
the regions of the motherland werebeing treated in the same way that
(13:21):
the colonists were being treated?
Is that what you're saying?
Correct?
Yes.
And again, when it takes three monthsto travel and get messages across to
How is it that you can govern well?
And other than implementing thoseideas and policies of that, as you
(13:46):
mentioned out of touch group ofpeople, the governor is looking at
maintaining his own point of reference.
And remember, he wouldget a nice retirement.
, where is it that you can govern wellif you're not governing locally?
(14:07):
And that was one thing thatI would say over and over is
all good government is local.
And that's what we didn't have.
With such a distance between us byhaving to cross over the Atlantic,
How in the world can you get anythingdone with three months apart?
I mean, King sends aletter, how are things?
(14:30):
Three months later hegets a response, Good!
How about with you?
I mean, you'd never get anything done.
correct?
And the expectation of that was,in the early charters, were to
give, , some sense of self government.
and self governing.
And that is where we started tohave a number of our disputes.
(14:50):
And again, it goes back to bothtrade and then it also started to
fall into the realm of , how wouldthe Church of England come in and
especially in the Northern colonies.
So there were so many, you know, Areasthat started to impact economically,
as well as then in personal consciencethat drove us into the decisions that we
(15:15):
ultimately made, but as you were askingearlier, also influenced my writings.
Concerning your writings, whatare some , of your most important
writings in your opinion?
The first and most important wouldbe the the rights of the colonist.
Because it was going back and reviewingfor the people and also was an appeal,
(15:35):
not just to the king, but it was an appealto the world of our rights as Englishmen
and that we were those people of thesame blood as those that were in England
and for the whole world to hear that thecharges that we were laying against the
king for violating the his relationshipand charter some of the other writings,
(16:00):
the articles that I wrote as Candidas weresome of the articles that I felt had the
most impact in my early writings and theperiods around 1748, 1750 and that period.
So that pseudonym was one.
from that Roman general that I carriedforward in trying to make that effort on.
(16:25):
looking at the tyranny that was going on.
There was one that I recall and Ican't recall the detail of, but it was
in reference to some of the squabblethat was happening on a theological
basis as well within the colony betweenthe Anglicans and the Puritans and
(16:47):
where we were trying to look at thecongregationalists and seeing where
We're, the imposition of what they wantedto do with bishopry from an Anglican
position was not where we saw from aCongregationalist Puritan perspective.
And I did take and write a couplearticles in reference to that as well.
(17:10):
So just a.
Several off the top of my head.
As you were saying before, when youare writing and you are trying to
influence people, and I'm thinking maybeinfluence people isn't the right word.
It seems like you're trying to find thepeople that believe the way that you
believe or are suffering in the way thatyou feel that many people are suffering
(17:33):
rather than specifically influence.
Is that correct?
Yes.
I would say that it wasduring which period?
In some cases it was already what peopleknew and felt and were trying to express
and to bring it to light and to try andcommunicate to those elsewhere as to what
is happening in Massachusetts relative towhat is happening in Virginia or what is
(17:56):
happening in New York or one of the othercolonies in Georgia or the Carolinas.
And find that commonality of, look,you're not alone, or are we alone?
Or that drove it to the idea of then whatwould be the committees of correspondence
(18:17):
early on during the revolution itself.
We did a lot of that in NewEngland, but for that to work and
that to carry forward, We neededVirginia to take the lead on it.
And so I did take a hand in holding backon what we were doing in Massachusetts
(18:41):
and having that become predominant,but encouraging through other letters
for Virginia to take a lead onthat committee of correspondence.
So then we would develop a communicationfront across all of the various colonies.
So influencing at different times.
(19:02):
When it was necessitated.
Otherwise, it was drawing others intowhat they already knew and to take
and solidify all of that thinking andbeliefs in such a way that where did
it require then the appropriate action.
(19:23):
That actually makes a lot more sense.
And and thank you for clearing that up.
And I want to ask you about thecommittees of correspondence, because
I've had a revelation about this asI was preparing to speak with you.
But before I do that, how does your methodof communicating through your writings,
as you've described, compare to yourmethod of getting people fired up when
(19:47):
you're sitting in the bars, having a beer,
I would have to say thatthere was more listening.
If you're sitting and having a beer, therewould be enough emotion to go around.
And so it would be, how do you take andlisten to determine then to direct with
(20:07):
others and allow them to direct theirideas and emotions in a productive manner.
So the writing would be very much similar.
Is that after hearing what wasgoing on either in the legislature,
through the letters of the king,the dictates of the governor, or
(20:30):
with every person on the street.
then it would come together in thewritings to be able to say, okay, look
at the governor here and challenge himon those policies that he's promulgating
and to get the people then to take andsupport the legislature in any activities
(20:53):
that it would try to do to change policybased on what the legislature could do.
And it was always about How dopeople influence government?
How do they influence the governed?
So do you do that by having conversations?
Absolutely.
(21:14):
And do you do that through the pen,which then gives you the ability
to communicate with more than thosethat are sitting at table with you?
So I believe that's the directions thatI use to look at how is it that we can
bring the people together, And what theyshould know and already have in their
(21:36):
hearts of their ideas of self governingand ensuring that their voices are heard
in the best way that I possibly could.
I see.
So the time in the taverns was almost likeresearch for what needed to be written.
It was being a part of thecommunity, especially as someone
(21:57):
that was elected to office.
It was a necessity to be able todo what needed to be accomplished.
So being there is, was part of the,what I saw is not as much as research.
I never thought of it that way, butas understanding, What the needs of my
fellow citizens were, or what they weretrying to express based on the issues
(22:22):
that were affecting their lives, thatwas a good place to, to be for that.
You can't help all these people thatyou want to help if you're not in touch
with what they need and what they'refeeling and what they're struggling with.
That makes a lot of sense.
that's correct.
And just to, as a side note of thatwas one of the areas that I was very
upset with in the Constitution of87, was the lack of representation.
(22:46):
How in the world can one personrepresent 30, 000 people?
I can't, it's unimaginable in mymind when I know how we, just in
the Massachusetts legislature,there was maybe a couple thousand
people each legislator represented.
(23:06):
So in the 87 Constitution, , sowhat did you do about that?
The fact that you had one personrepresenting too many people?
Well, we tried to see aboutgetting it amended, But that was
the original First Amendment.
If you study the history of the amendmentsthat were submitted, that was one of the
amendments that were submitted to theto the Congress, was to take and reduce
(23:30):
the number of citizens and increase thenumber of representatives per population.
Smart.
If it's got to be local, if it onlyworks, if it's local, You can't have 30,
000 people represented by one person.
There's no way that personcould get their voice
I know.
And that's, so Congress continued that,the House of Representatives, under
(23:52):
the Constitution of the United States.
That was what held.
And I do hope that is still the number ofcitizens to representative in your future.
Well, I'm going to tellyou this in the future.
We don't get everything right.
There's a lot of things we getright, but it, it is a work in
progress as it was during your time.
(24:14):
And I suspect 200 years from nowpeople will be saying the same thing.
It's always going tobe a work in progress.
It's always going to be brokenand on its way to being fixed,
but never quite all the way.
But I think that might be okay.
When I was preparing for thisconversation and I was reading about
the committees of correspondence,one thing about this organization or
(24:34):
this process that you had that I justcould never understand it is the name.
It is just, the name is so like, itjust doesn't catch your attention.
I know that sounds simple, but itwas almost too boring for me to read
about it every time I would see it.
And then I started.
preparing to have this conversation withyou and I got really interested because
(24:55):
This is something that you either startedor played a big role in starting and
this is very important And is that right?
This is this something you started?
In the Massachusetts colonies I did.
It was very important to be able tocommunicate with the other districts
throughout Massachusetts and theninto Connecticut and Rhode Island.
(25:16):
A lot of the issues were common issuesand how do we draw that together?
How can we come back andspeak in a very similar voice?
And for a period of time, , theyconsolidated Rhode Island and once again,
Connecticut towards Massachusetts, andit was no, they, they have their separate
(25:36):
their separate entities, but at thesame time, we need to be able to know
that we're definitely of the same mindand direction that we needed to have.
And then Virginia began, New York as well.
We sent people in there to say,okay, we need to be able to
communicate at a larger scale.
(25:58):
And it grew from there.
And once again, I did try to encourageVirginia to take the lead on that, to
make sure that , it wasn't being drivenjust from the Northern colony, because
we were seeing enough as a troublemaker.
And it was it was a necessityto have the Southern colonies.
(26:19):
come together a stronger format with usand their committees and correspondence
became that format by which we wereable to communicate effectively.
So is the the committee of correspondenceam I right to say that this is then
just a network that allows all of thecolonies to communicate with one another.
(26:42):
A network that didn't exist prior toyou either creating or fine tuning it.
Correct.
It was a means of communication onthe common issues of the day and in
a manner that would then be able todraw us together to some points of
not only questioning, but actionableconcepts and items and methodologies.
(27:07):
There is absolutely no chance that thecolonies, the colonists stand up against
what the English were sending over, without that committee of correspondence.
Do you agree with that?
I would agree.
It brought us together quite a bit.
And you have to understand as well.
That in Boston at the time, that wedid in particular have a committee of
(27:31):
safety and I was elected to head thatcommittee of safety and even though
there were the regular troops that werecoming in, we did exercise the citizenry
in small arms drills and activities.
We were making sure that thefamilies knew how to take care of
(27:53):
themselves in times of trouble.
And it was very effective Ultimately,when Boston was embargoed, if you
will, when we were blockaded as you'rewell aware, Boston is a peninsula to
the extent that they were able to theBritish set up a blockade across that
(28:14):
peninsula where The only way that we wereable to get our food and other goods in
was across the Charles River and that.
But we did exercise our rightsat that time as free citizens
to gather in military formationsand , do small arms drills too.
So when I talked to General Gage theCommittee of Safety came up and he
(28:39):
was laughing about the name of that.
So what actually is, if you're gonnaput it in a sentence or two, what
actually is the Committee of Safety?
What is it?
Committee of Safety is the Organizationof the citizens for self protection.
So I would in a second sentence is Iwould put that as the beginning of the
(29:00):
militia because the militia was allowedeven under our charter for self protection
or protection even to the frontier.
So it was it was simply taken outthe militaristic term of militia
gathering to the committee of safety.
Okay, so I'm gonna be tarred andfeathered myself by people who
(29:24):
listen to this if I don't ask youif you make beer Or have made beer
No, that, that is I, some, for somereason I've had that question before.
My father, we had a malthouse on our property.
So we, were malters and you were askingof one of the disparaging names that I
(29:47):
had and it was Sam the Maltser and Itwas even to the effect when I'd work
in the malt house That if you're notfamiliar with that At that process at all
when you're in there and you're tryingto work with that malt You actually
acquire some of the aromas of that malt.
So, for myself to go out intopublic without preparing necessarily
(30:13):
to go, I did have a sweet aromathat caused people to stand off.
And I thought it might havebeen my personality, but I
knew much better than that.
Sam the Molster, huh,
Yes.
but you don't have some Brandof beer some family name that
you guys are the greatest beerproducers ever that never happened
No.
(30:34):
No.
We were, we strictly were the producersof malt for those that were brewers.
What about slavery?
, that becomes a big thing overthe next few years for sure.
And what are your views on that?
, I read something that you're the onlyfounding father that never owned a slave.
Is that correct?
That's absolutely correct.
(30:54):
I was absolutely against slavery inthe context that it was in the Americas
and taking and bringing people overthe way that they were brought over.
Biblically, slavery had its placesand purposes, if you understand
that concept of it, but totake and to force people over.
(31:17):
away from their homes and the methodsthat were being used by the English
originally and then carried eveninto this period of time with Mr.
Jefferson.
My wife Elizabeth was given a blackwoman and she came home with her
and I refused to have her livein the house unless she was free.
(31:40):
And so I told her she was a free womanand she's lived with us ever since.
She was part of my family andstill is part of my family.
And she's participated and helped live inour household as a family member, helped
even as I would educate our children.
(32:02):
And at this point, sadlysay my son has passed.
But I, I thought slavery in the contextthat England brought it to bear and then
how it's been carried out in throughoutthe colonies and then these United States
now has been a travesty to humanity.
I'm not at all surprised that youhave these feelings, for sure.
(32:26):
But if this black woman that lives inyour house and is a part of your family
one day said, , I think I'm gonnamove, and I'm gonna go to I don't know,
she's gonna go to Connecticut, right?
You'd say, okay, thanks a lot.
Yes.
She, I said, she's a free woman.
She can do as she pleases.
. That's a hard position to takewith so many people owning slaves.
(32:48):
Good for you.
Education.
You have some strong feelingsabout education, don't you?
I do.
Absolutely do.
What do you think about , in ademocracy, people have a vote.
People have , one vote . Theyrepresent, one of whatever the total is.
But as you know, there's a lotof people that are not educated
(33:09):
at all and can be manipulated.
In fact, I think you would argue that,you might argue that the Tories have
been manipulated to believe that it'sgood for them to have pay stamp taxes
and be under the rule of the king.
, is that where education comes intothis to get those people to understand,
, what is right and what is wrong?
, what are your thoughts on that?
(33:29):
First, I think you need to understand, andyou may have been misguided, the ability
of the people to read for themselvesin the colonies has always been in
that 80 plus percent of the population.
(33:50):
So for them to have a formaleducation in mathematics and history
and sciences has nothing to do withthe family educations that they
received in their ability to read.
Not everybody may have been ableto write in a script format.
(34:11):
But they had the ability andhave the ability to read so that
they could understand what was inprint and the issues of the day.
My heart in education was firstand foremost, as I wrote not only
to my cousin, John, when he was apresident, but also as governor.
(34:33):
to the state legislature that thepurpose of education would be first
and foremost that these would be moralindividuals that would have a capacity
for self government and that they wouldbe educated not only in the religious
principles of the truth of the daybut also that they would be educated
(34:56):
in how government should function.
And what does that mean, then, for theConstitution of Massachusetts, and then
the Constitution of the United States?
If someone is unintelligent,or lacks the knowledge of
(35:18):
functionality in how governmentshould work, Then you're correct.
They will not be able to self governand they will not know how to vote
well, even though they have that vote.
As a free individual, and as you wellknow now, we're more of a republic
(35:39):
than a pure democracy, so making thosechoices for who will represent them only
can be done well if they understandhow that is supposed to function.
And then, for the opportunities intheir future, help them understand
the gifts of God that they werecreated as the person that they are in
(36:04):
mathematics and science and literature.
Then to be able to go into those areasof life that they have a capacity for,
the rest of that helps them to definewhat it is that , they're designed to do.
, that's my whole heart on education.
(36:26):
. Is it true that at one point youwere fifth in line to be president?
It is.
Would you have been a good president?
I don't know that I would.
I cannot say that I wouldn't know.
all of the, as I stated earlier, tohave all the good counsel around me
(36:48):
to help me function in that position.
So that was never anythingthat I desired to do.
I was reluctant even to take thegovernorship, but it was because of Mr.
Hancock passing away that I was broughtup from lieutenant governor to governor.
So to become president, that would havebeen a difficult one for me to ascend to.
(37:13):
Yeah.
Do you think a person couldbe a good president without
having strong religious beliefs?
I have a hard time
I'm going to be cautious with what I'mgoing to say is because I think that
Would this be the first timeyou've ever done that, by the way?
I'm kidding.
Keep going.
No I, there have been other times thatI was cautious of what I was saying,
(37:38):
especially when the young lieutenantwas sitting there with a pistol in
his hand, ready to assassinate meduring one of the town meetings.
So I was relativelycautious at that point.
But the, to be cautious now isbecause I look at the changes.
In what has happened, even from thetime of the beginning of the revolution,
(38:02):
what has happened within the contextof what is the meaning and idea of
religious and how we shifted throughoutthe teachings within the pulpits, if
you will, and how much the rise ofUnitarianism or Deism has come to play.
to the point that definition ofa religious perspective I do have
(38:25):
a lot of feeling around that.
My personal sense is that one needs tounderstand who is the ultimate sovereign
to be able to govern exceptionally well.
But I do believe, as with GeneralWashington, who, although he was Anglican,
was more of a deist, as well as I know mycousin was a Unitarian, so that is totally
(38:51):
different in a theological perspective.
And then now, with Mr.
Jefferson, who is a deist as well,if you will, the principles Of
those governing now are those ofthe principles of the revolution.
Their hearts and minds are focused onthose truths in such a way that, yeah, my
(39:18):
cousin John may have had some bad luck.
Blips because of what was going on withthe Federalists and Hamilton and Jay
and the, how they believe the structureshould be under the constitution.
And yes, those of us that are moreFederalist Republicans and that
have now are more in tune with Mr.
(39:40):
Jefferson in the DemocraticRepublican party format.
It all comes down to our principlesof the fight for independence.
Now, I believe you have tohave that to govern well.
(40:01):
Those principles are lost,then I don't know what your
world is going to look like.
We're definitely not going to justmention a , young lieutenant pointing
a pistol at your head, trying toassassinate you without hearing
what the rest of that story is.
What happened there?
Well, , I can't remember the exactspeech, but it was a large gathering
(40:24):
at Old South and it was in that momentof talking about one of the egregious
acts and what are we going to do andthe large gathering of the people there.
And this is when already theparliament is not happy with me at all.
(40:45):
But the young lieutenant actuallywas sitting at the steps for the
platform and he had his revolverunder a kerchief in his lap.
Actually, the kerchief was dropped by Mr.
Hancock, I believe.
It was Mr.
Hancock, or I don't recall theexact person, again at my age.
(41:08):
But I do recall that him sitting there atthe steps of the platform, and with the
full intention, I believe, to shoot me.
And one of our Patriot friends wentahead and dropped his kerchief over that
pistol, which obviously then stoppedhim from shooting me there at that time.
(41:32):
But it was a very tenuous momentin looking down and seeing someone
there, knowing that I was goingto go down for the fight, no
matter what, for our liberties.
And yet the intervention of coolerhands, if you will, took place.
For the cause of American liberty andthe freedom that I live under right
(41:54):
now, that would have been a terriblething because it seems to me that , this
flame of rebellion, that it wouldfire up sometimes and then it would
calm down and then it would fire upsometimes and then it would calm down.
And it appears from my endthat behind the scenes.
That you were the person behind that,that kept stoking that fire when it
(42:16):
would get too low, so until it eventuallycaught fire, which may have been that
moment in Concord and Lexington thatyou said where you raised your hands
in the air, and I just can't imaginewhat would have happened if that person
hadn't been there to stoke the fire.
Is that how you see it?
Not at all.
I think there were many others as well in,in other areas, in other of the colonies
(42:39):
at the time that were doing the same.
I mean, the young Patrick Henryin Virginia, there were Some of
the others, the Yates in New Yorkand then what was going on all
through even with Pennsylvaniaand when those that were in Dr.
Franklin's close circle of friends Iwould just say that I was just one person
(43:04):
that had the opportunities to be able tocommunicate the intent and emotions of
the people of the time in such a way thatwe were able to say enough is enough when
it came to , those tyrannies about us.
(43:25):
And I think it was well capturedagain, as we began with my friend young
friend Thomas Jefferson and composingthe Declaration of Independence.
Yes.
of the Thomases Thomas Paineobviously had something to say that
people wanted to hear just like you.
Do you have some feelings about him?
(43:47):
I think he was a brilliant young man.
Everything that he did with Common Sense.
If you really want to put a finger on thepulse of moving the revolution forward,
it would be his pamphlet Common Sense.
I give great credit towhat he wrote there.
(44:09):
My feelings at this age that I'm atare those where Now that he's been in
France for the period of time that hehas not, or I should rather say that he
has stepped away from any understandingof foundational biblical religion.
(44:31):
He's even gone further thanwhat I would qualify as a deist.
He's come against, become awriter of theology that is so
far away from his early days ofunderstanding, even in this nation.
that we had an exchange, a kindexchange via some letters and where
(44:56):
he tried to express his sentiments andtried to even do it with scriptures
and I have to reject all of that.
His early days, Brilliant.
As I said, I think that commonsense was the real catalyst for
what took the nation forward.
But now, in this time, this age,I would rather him stay with his
(45:22):
writing of common sense instead of hiswritings of reason, which are a true
attack on Christianity in particular.
Yeah, he definitely went adifferent direction where, of
course, stayed the same course.
Yes.
Do you think that where the republicis right now, do you think that maybe
(45:43):
after the revolution, that as theUnited States started to transform into
what it's becoming and what it willbe, do you think maybe that you're
not evolving at that same pace.
A number of my Detractors would havesaid that, may say that even now.
(46:03):
When I was considered for re electionas the governor of Massachusetts, there
was a lot of rhetoric against me, , basedon my age, and that I was not willing
to be other than what I am, Amen.
My steadfastness in my beliefs and in myrepublicanism and my religious beliefs.
(46:26):
So, that I would say is an honestcriticism at this present time and
even those few years ago when, as Imentioned, running or being elected for
governor when I was put up for that.
And I think this is where Mr.
Jefferson.
is also looking at why I'm soencouraged with him being the president.
(46:49):
As it goes back to the foundationalprinciples that is what holds the
people together, if they understand it.
That's why when we were talkingabout education, I was so adamant
about the education of the youngpeople, not only in their true
(47:10):
understanding of their religious, moral.
requirements, what good virtue is,but also what is good government
based on constitutionalism, andin particular our constitution.
Other than that, where we grow andhow the nation is growing in commerce,
(47:31):
I'm all for that and always have been.
I think that we need to, withan understanding different than
necessarily what the Federalists were,where that becomes the everything.
I think that's where Mr.
Jefferson is at.
such a differentiator and that hesees that we still need to maintain
a strong agrarian economy andnation and the thought processes
(47:56):
that go hand in hand with that.
Because once a people go too far intoelements of commerce only, from my
perspective as that old Puritan, is thattheir frivolity increases to the point
(48:16):
that they forget those basic fundamentalsand principles of good morality, of
good government, and then allow forall of the mechanisms of the excess
to overcome their general principles.
You can't build anything withoutthat solid foundation, can you?
(48:38):
Correct.
. Mr.
Adams, I am so thankful for allof your time and your service
in some of the darkest, mostdifficult times in our history.
I'm just so thankful.
And I just have twolast questions for you.
And then if there's anything you'd wantto add, I'd certainly love to hear it.
And that first question is, if youhad to look back during the early days
(48:59):
of you trying to, , fight for thesefreedoms and of the two allies that you.
Certainly had your cousin,John Adams and John Hancock.
If you could only have one of them andyou couldn't have the other supporting
you, which one would you want?
Because,
(49:20):
He even though he and I did have asmall falling out, Because as you
may be aware, he wanted to be thegeneral of the Revolutionary Forces,
and my preference was with Mr.
Washington.
His youth, areas of influence,and his desire for the same
(49:48):
freedoms, was my preference.
much akin to mine.
Whereas my cousin John was more subdued.
He didn't even want to get into thepolitical arena until I requested that he
come in and defend those British soldiersthat fired upon our citizens there in
(50:11):
Boston and having killed a couple of them.
oh, you pulled him in.
Yes, I did.
Yes.
And then from that point, , he becamemore active, but he was always more of
a reluctant soul, but of a great mind.
In many of his writings in his earlydays , in some of his writings in
(50:34):
relationship to the Constitution,I think was a brilliant work.
But if I was going to have someone atthat same period of time and could only
have one person with me definitely Mr.
Hancock.
. I appreciate you answering all myquestions and having this conversation
(50:54):
cause it really has been fantastic.
So thank you for all of your time.
Is there anything that you wouldlike to add to wrap this up?
The only thing that I can think isa great prayer that as my posterity,
you and the future would hold to thetruth and principles of our foundation.
(51:14):
And as you recognize that without that itcould only mean a travesty in governing.
That's perfect.
I appreciate your time so much and thankyou again, and I'll be wishing you the
And you're most welcome.
Thank you
What can I say?
This is nothing like what I expected.
I don't know why I expected SamuelAdams to be an uneducated hothead.
(51:38):
When the reality is that he's awell-educated man that was deeply involved
in political philosophy, religion, andwritings that moved people to take action.
He spent his life as a passionateadvocate for independence and played
a gigantic role in organizing protestslike the Boston Tea Party when he threw
his hands in the air, praying to Godafter the first shots and conquered, it
(52:02):
wasn't because he was dying to get to thebattle and see the bullets start flying.
It was because it meant he was onestep closer to the moment where the
people that he cared about in hiscommunity would be treated fairly
and never again be stripped of therights that they were all born with.
And if that meant fighting, so be it.
When I think about Thomas Paine andhis role in giving the people a voice
(52:24):
through his writing Common Sense, Iwonder if a fair way to describe Samuel
Adams would have been as the organizer.
Without somebody like him, wouldthe committees of correspondence
have turned into this powerfulcommunication network that it became?
Could someone else have pulledtogether a group of people that would
risk so much at the Boston Tea Party?
(52:46):
And would the Sons of Liberty have beenthe strong force that it became to see
things through despite the hardship?
Fortunately, that young lieutenantnever took the action that
would cause us never to know.
Thanks for listening, and don'tforget that when you tell a friend
about the Calling History podcast,a mosquito decides it's time to
(53:08):
switch to a plant based diet.
I'm Tony Dean, and untilnext time, I'm history.
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