February 14, 2024 • 43 mins
On April 15, 1922, Margaret Brown was in France when she received a call from the future…
In this episode, she will share her experience of watching the Titanic sink as well as her contempt for the cowards that prevented her from assisting those that eventually drowned. She will also explain how a young girl stripping tobacco leaves became a wealthy socialite that spent her fortune helping those that could not help themselves.
Start the episode now to join the conversation.
-----
Thank you, JoAnn F. Peterson, for your magnificent portrayal of Margaret Brown. You can learn more about JoAnn, her acting, singing, and amazing portrayals of Historic Women at: Www.joannpeterson.com, or contact her at Joannfpeterson@gmail.com. You can also listen to her as Mary Lincoln on the podcast dated December 21, 2022. It’s extraordinary.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Um, Tony Dean.
And today we'll be calling history tospeak with the unsinkable Molly brown,
who by the way, never went by Molly.
No one called her Molly except in 1933,when writer, gene Fowler, for some reason
just changed her name and his book.
And then it stuck forever.
Nonetheless, the rest of hernickname is absolutely correct.
(00:49):
Margaret or Mrs.
JJ brown, as she was often called wasn't.
In fact, unsinkable, our discussion takesplace on the 10th anniversary of her
surviving, the sinking of the Titanic.
You would think that Margaret was donetaking big passenger ships after that,
but no way as a self-proclaimed daughterof adventure she had stuffed to do
(01:11):
while traveling.
She found herself once on a shipcalled the Lusitania that was sunk
by German U boats in world war.
Fortunately, she was not on theship at that time when it sunk.
But Margaret was much morethan this one event that
dominated the story of her life.
She was rich really rich,but she wasn't selfish.
She used her wealth throughout herlife to improve the lives of others
(01:34):
while she was traveling the worldin ships that would eventually sink.
But enjoying every minute of being alive.
Margaret helped miners in Coloradofight for fair pay and reasonable hours.
She spoke several languages.
She attempted to run for Senate beforewomen were even able to vote nationally
and even help the people of France recoverafter the tragedy of world war one.
(01:57):
Yet while serving those lessfortunate, she never stopped pursuing
her dream of being an actress.
She was focused,
living a rich life ofexperiences and service.
Ladies and gentlemen,fellow history, lovers
and traveling companions ofJohn Jacob Astor everywhere.
I give you the unsinkable, Molly.
(02:17):
I mean, Margaret Brown.
Hello, is that you
Mrs.
Brown?
It is indeed.
Mrs.
Brown, it is a pleasure to speak with you.
My name is Tony Dean.
I'm talking to you from thefuture in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding is calleda smartphone and it allows us to speak as
if we were arm's length from one another.
(02:39):
It also allows me to share a record of ourconversation with people around the world.
And ma'am, It appears that eitherthrough divine intervention or
incredible luck that you survivedthe unimaginable ten years ago.
And I was just hoping that Icould ask you some questions, but
before I do, I understand thisis a very strange introduction.
(03:02):
Can I answer any questionsyou may have first?
I find this an unusual piece of moderntechnology, I guess you would say.
I do have a phone in my home, butit does not look anything like this.
Much bigger.
They are much differentnow than they used to be.
In fact, some of these phones right noware smaller than the size of your palm.
(03:23):
What's in your home?
Oh, it's a much larger one.
It's on the wall, and I have to havethe operator connect us, and you
can't call everywhere, of coursebut it is very handy to have.
I think that in our time, you would enjoythe way that we use these now, because I
know that you've done a lot of travelingin your time some very unsuccessful and,
(03:45):
and other very successfully, but you canjust call anybody at any place in the
world, at any time, at almost no cost.
. That is amazing, because sendingcables is quite expensive.
That's how we communicatemostly around the world.
There was a significant moment inyour life that, of course, you're
(04:05):
going to know exactly what I'm talkingabout, that people are going to
want to hear about first from you.
And it is about thesinking of the Titanic.
And I guess what I'm wondering is,how did you even end up on that
ship?
Oh I hadn't intended to be on it, but Iwas traveling with my daughter, Helen, and
we had first gone to Egypt with the JohnJacob Astor and his new wife, Madeline,
(04:27):
and we were traveling around there andthen on to Paris, and I got a cable
saying that my newly born grandchild,my, my son Larry's son, was very ill.
And so I sought passage on the firstship back to the United States, and
that happened to be the Titanic.
So,
had something not happened to yourgrandchild, you would have never been on
(04:50):
that ship, at least not on that particular
voyage.
No, not at that time.
I had planned to do much moretouring around Europe before
returning to the United States.
. My daughter, Helen, though, she wasstudying in Paris at Sorbonne and some
of her friends wanted her to come toLondon for them during the season.
So she decided not to get on the Titanicwith me, but to continue on to London.
(05:14):
And I was so very thankful that decisionwas made and she was not with me.
Oh, that was close.
So were you, as far as family,were you the only person in your
family that was on the ship?
Yes, I was, yes.
I had some friends that wereon there, Emma Bucknell and Dr.
Arthur Brew.
They boarded at Cherbourg,the same place I did.
(05:37):
So, tell me a little bit about whatthat was like getting on the Titanic.
Tell me about what happened whenyou first got on the ship that's
an adventure in itself, obviously.
What did that look
like?
We took a train from Paris and itwas late coming from Liverpool and
we ended up having to stand outsideon the dock waiting for about an hour
before we were able to get on the ship.
(05:58):
And Emma kept saying thatsomething was going to happen.
She just had this dreadful feeling.
And of course, we said it was justthe anxiety of having to travel and
going back to her family, that it'salways very stressful to do this.
So we got on the tender.
And got out to the ship, and as Isaid, it was cold, but not that cold.
(06:20):
And the usual day on theTitanic, I would get up and take
a brisk walk around the ship.
I would go to the gym, and Iwould pummel at the hanging bag.
And I would read a lot, and of course,interact with my friends, and have dinner
with them, and have tea in the afternoon.
And I enjoyed it.
(06:41):
It was a very Wonderful time,until the last day, of course.
How many days were you on the ship?
I boarded on , April 10th, therein Cherbourg, and it was on
the 14th, just before midnight,when it struck the iceberg.
So you're having the time of yourlife, you're thinking that this ship
(07:01):
has got to be just a marvel, andthen there is the first announcement,
or what happened that led you tobelieve that something was wrong?
The day had been just like any other dayexcept it was Sabbath day and Captain
Smith He had led the worship service.
We he read from the common book ofprayers and Again, just a typical day.
(07:24):
I had my lunch at the verandacafe, did some more walking.
It was very cold though, so youdidn't spend much time outside.
And I had gone to dinner thatnight and was lying in bed reading.
And , just before midnight, there wasa bump and I was thrown out of my bed.
(07:44):
And I found myself on the floor.
I had no idea what had happened, but Igot back in bed and continued reading.
And then I heard voicesout in the hallway.
So I peeked out and I saw peopleout there talking, but they didn't
seem like anything was amiss.
They were chatting veryanimatedly, so I went back to
(08:06):
bed and started reading again.
And then what I heard More commotionand my curtains moved a little bit
and I looked out and I saw this manand he looked like he was gasping
for air and his eyes were bulgingand he said, get your life preserver.
So I thought I better find out what wasgoing on and I put on some clothes and.
(08:29):
I I put on quite a few clothes.
I put on seven pairs of socks.
I grabbed a sable that I wrappedaround my shoulders, a silk
hood over my head, a capote.
And I stuck a little talisman thatI had got in Egypt in my pocket.
It was turquoise.
And 500, I put that in a pouch whichI put under my clothes, . And grabbed
(08:53):
a blanket and I went out and went upon deck to see what was happening.
And I went over on one side ofthe ship and saw some people and
I started encouraging them becausewe just thought this was a drill.
We thought that people would begetting in the lifeboats and they
would be back in no amount of time.
So people did not want to getinto the lifeboats because
(09:14):
they thought, why bother?
They thought it was safer on the ship.
I started to realize that it was morethan that, so I was encouraging the
women, because on the side that I wasin, they were saying women and children
to get in, and so I was encouraging someof them that wanted to go back and get
their valuables, I said, no, there'sno time, you need to get in now, and I
(09:36):
thought I'll go see what's happening onthe other side, and just as I started
to cross, two men came from behind meand lifted me by my elbows and threw
me four feet down into the lifeboat.
So, I really didn't havemuch choice in the matter.
They
picked you up and just threw you
(09:57):
in?
Yes, they did.
. So, I was in the lifeboat and I lookedand I only saw one man in there.
And that was Robert Hitchens,a very craven creature.
He was the quartermaster.
The rest appeared to be women.
Then they had Major Puchin.
(10:17):
They were yelling from men thatwe needed men in our lifeboat.
And so he said that he was a seaman.
And he was able to swing out becauseat that point the lifeboat was canting
away from the ship and he was ableto manage to get into our lifeboat.
And so as far as I knew,there were only two men.
(10:39):
They threw another little boy in andthat poor boy, we found out later, he
had actually broken one of his arms.
. So, when you say that they're throwingpeople in, they actually threw you
in, and they threw this boy in wherehe hit the boat and broke a bone.
I mean, they literally are
throwing people.
I wouldn't say they threw many people in.
Most people entered by choice.
(11:01):
And many people, of course, wanted to goin, husbands especially, with their wives,
but they were denied that entry, at leastin the side of the boat that I was on.
Wow.
Okay.
All right.
Keep going.
So how many people are in the boat now?
Oh, I think there were 27 in all.
But they started lowering us.
(11:22):
And as they did, I noticed that there wasthis big gash in the side of the boat.
And I took my oar and I held itso that we didn't bash into the
ship as they were lowering us.
And it was obvious.
That there had been no practice.
There was not one drill.
(11:42):
Yet, , as generally you would thinkthere would be, and so I, I held it so
our lifeboat didn't crash into the shipas the water was gushing out of this
gash, and teetering back and forth,we thought we were going to be spilled
into the ocean, and finally we madeit down and splashed in, and I looked
(12:04):
up, and I could see Captain Smith.
He was standing there, and I had beenon ships other times that he was the
captain, so I, I knew who he was, buthe had this venerable white hair, and
he held himself very uprightly, but Icould hear him saying that we should stay
(12:25):
together and to row toward the light tomake sure we got away from the ship, and
so, We started rowing away and immediatelythis Hitchens, he started saying that we
were going to be sucked under either bythe ship going down or for some unknown
reason that none of us were going tosurvive, he just kept going on and on
(12:49):
like this about how we were all doomed andhe was just misery, the craven creature.
What a terrible person tobe , leading the expedition to
get away from the boat.
Yes, you can say that again.
Yes he was just doom and gloom theentire time, but he had his hand on the
rudder, so we didn't have much choice.
(13:10):
He at first said that we justneeded to go out and stop, and
he, oh, he heard the captain.
The captain said, come back,and we said, you're crazy.
The captain's, we're too far away tohear the captain, and so we started
rolling in, and of course he wouldn'tallow anybody else to man the rudder.
Even though he complained all thetime of being cold, I said if you
(13:30):
would just get your hands on one ofthe oars and start rowing it would
warm you up, but of course he wouldnot do that, he wouldn't give it up.
So we rowed away and we couldhear the music playing and
then we heard it slowly fading.
We heard gunshots at times.
We were told later that it was shootingto keep some of the passengers off
(13:52):
the boats, or other people saidthat it was the boilers exploding.
But then came the moment
We heard this big, loud noise as the,
the boat started tilting upright.
And everything started crashing downfrom one side of the ship to the other,
and the people were screaming, and eachof us on our lifeboat, we were calling
(14:17):
out the name of a loved one, and I wasso thankful that my Helen was not there.
I tried to look away, but I couldn't.
My eyes were glued to that shipas it disappeared under the ocean.
The surface, it foamed up like giantarms spread out around that ship as it
disappeared out of sight, and we couldhear the people, they were crying out.
(14:40):
And many on our boat said, we haveto go back, we have to rescue these
people, but Hitchens would not turn.
He said our boat would beswamped and we would all die.
And they were deadalready, as good as dead.
He wouldn't allow us to go back.
It was the most horrible thing I have ever
(15:00):
experienced.
? So you're in the boat right now.
Hitchens will not turn back.
And you can hear people screamingfor help, is that right?
For a while.
And then their voices all faded too.
And we knew they were gone.
So what
happened next?
, did somebody convince him to turnaround and look for survivors?
(15:20):
Or did you wait?
No.
He wouldn't.
We just continued on.
We kept rowing.
And I kept encouraging the otherwomen to row two because that
was the only way to keep warm.
I had given away six of my sevenpairs of socks to other people.
We rowed and
Hitchens made a stop because we sawother boats and he had them come and
(15:42):
latch up to us and of course we weregetting cold and there was a stoker
on one of the other ones and hewas in his, it looked like pajamas.
He didn't have much on, just asweater and he came over and got in
our lifeboat since we Needed somemen there, and I took my sable off
and I wrapped it from his waist downaround his legs to try to warm him up.
(16:04):
And I was trying to get him to let usmove again so that we could be warm.
And Hitchens swore at me.
He said that I needed to learn myplace, that he was in charge, and
the stoker, he started tellinghim that was no way to talk.
Treat a lady and I threatened to throwHitchens overboard and as I approached
(16:26):
him, they held me back or I would
have.
So what did it look like at night?
So here you are, there's a handfulof boats, everybody's doing the best
they can to stay warm everybody'sscared to death obviously.
What is, what does it look like?
Did it get quiet then?
Was the night clear where you could see
stars?
(16:46):
Yes, we can see the stars shining andwe can see reflection off of them of the
icebergs and smell them all around us.
They put out this musty smell and yes,it was very frightening, especially
since Hitchens kept saying thatthere was no food, no water in our
lifeboat, that we were going to die.
As I said, he was a despicable
(17:07):
creature.
Terrible.
And you probably only needed a coupledays and then you would have been
eating him because that would havebeen the only value he could have
provided.
That's a novel thought.
I hadn't thought of that before.
So now, , as you're sitting in the boatand everybody's cold and you're sharing
your socks, boy I can't believe you hadthe foresight to put all these pairs
(17:30):
of socks on , how full was the boat?
How much space was in the boat
still?
There was quite a lotof space in our boat.
We could have fit manymore people in there.
Could you have doubled what was in there?
Most likely, yes.
What a shame.
In order to start rowing again, wehad to cut the ties between the boats.
We could not row together.
(17:50):
So that was one of the things hewas trying to prevent happening.
He didn't want , that to happen.
So that's one reason I wasin this argument with him.
We had to do it in order to keep warm.
We would have all frozen if we hadjust sat there with the wind howling
around us and the cold creeping into us.
We had frost on us.
I had frostbite back when Ilived in Leadville, but this was
(18:15):
as cold as then, if not colder.
So now you're in theboat and you're rowing.
And there's probably after this, Iguess maybe there's this quiet calm
where people don't know what to do.
So what do you do next?
Does Hitchens, does he startshowing some leadership qualities?
Does somebody stand upand say, let's do this?
, what happens over the next several hours?
Someone saw a light and theythought it was another ship.
(18:40):
And Hitchens says, Oh no, there's noships coming here that if they are,
they're just here to pick up thestiffs, they're not going to rescue us.
And someone said, Oh, it's theOlympic because they thought it
was going to be passing by soon.
Well, Actually, the Olympic didn'tpass by for a couple more days.
It was not the Olympic.
(19:00):
And we realized when a man's voicespoke up and said, it's the Carpathia.
She's a good ship we did haveanother man here on board.
Which Frederick Fleet, the lookout, hehad put a blanket over his head to keep
warm and people assumed it was a woman.
(19:21):
But we actually did have anotherman on our boat with us, and he
said, she's here to rescue us.
I know she's a good ship.
So we could see other lifeboatsby this time, and they were
approaching the Carpathia.
It took us quite a while.
It was a number of miles still away,and by the time we got there, the sea,
(19:42):
which had been very Glassy and stillhad begun to whip up and was very
rocky and waves were crashing around.
So we had a very difficult timeas we approached the Carpathia.
In order to get up to it, they loweredropes down with a seat and they made
(20:03):
a makeshift Jacob's Ladder on it.
And one by one, they hauled us up.
Up onto the ship and immediatelygave us stimulants and coffee
and warm clothes and blankets.
I cannot say enough goodthings about Captain Rostron
and the people there on board.
The Carpathia.
(20:23):
The ship was headed to theMediterranean, so it was.
It's full of food and it onlyhad about half occupancy.
Fortunately for us, meant there was a lotof food and there was space to fit us in.
Now there weren't enough rooms foreverybody, but between restaurants
and the other public spaces on board,a place was found for everyone.
(20:47):
I can't imagine anybody was even concernedabout whether or not they had a room.
They just wanted to get out ofthe boat and get out of the water.
Anything to not be floating in that water.
One of those people who wantedto make sure that they had a very
private cabin was Bruce Ismay.
The managing director of the WhiteStar Line that owned the Titanic.
(21:08):
, he wanted his own cabin oncehe got on the Carpathia.
, he was not one of those obviouslybelieved in women and children.
Only, or even first.
He made his way on one ofthose collapsible lifeboats.
So, when he was rescued onto theCarpathia, he immediately took refuge in
one of the cabins and refused to come out.
(21:29):
He's such a coward.
Oh, this guy's fantastic.
I can't even imagine that.
He's the one that owned the Titanic,and he gets off it, and he's
like, I gotta have my own room.
And I hold him personally responsible,him and Captain Smith, for what happened.
The Titanic should no more run intoan iceberg than the Brown Palace
(21:51):
Hotel in Denver run into Pikes Peak.
It was so unnecessary and avoidable.
He was wanting to get to a dinnerparty in New York City, so he was
pushing the limits and trying to seta speed record to get there in time.
So what about the captain?
Bruce Ismay was trying to set thisspeed record, which was a mistake, , he
(22:13):
shouldn't be in a rush with people'slives, so when you say you blame it on
the captain, how is it the captain'sfault if he's just following orders?
Because he shouldn't havefollowed those orders.
He knew what could happen.
He knew that there wereicebergs all around.
He had been warned, manytimes he had been warned.
, he should have known better.
Rather than listening to someonewho doesn't have nearly the
(22:36):
navigational experience as you do.
So, now
you're on the Carpathia.
And you guys get somefood and you warm up.
What happens next?
I started organizing.
That's what I do best.
Organizing and fundraising.
So I started making a list of everybodythat was rescued from all the classes,
(22:57):
where they were from, where they weregoing, if they had anybody there to,
vouch for them, to take care of themonce they made it to the United States,
and I started raising funds because somany of these rescued people were women.
Women who had lost their husbands,they had lost their support, they
lost every single thing they owned.
(23:21):
Many of their children were lost as well.
They had to start overagain without a breadwinner.
And so I was trying to raisefunds in order for them to be
able to survive in the new world.
Madeline Astor, the widow now of JohnJacob Astor, contributed greatly to
that fund and I raised 10, 000 beforewe reached New York City, 2, 000 from
(23:48):
Madeline, and there were some women,though, who I encountered out on the
deck, and I told them I hadn't seen theirname on the list of the contributors.
And they said once we get to NewYork City, we will be going on our
way, we'll be staying in our favoritehotel, you'll be at yours at the Ritz
Carlton, why worry about these women?
(24:08):
Well, I started making a list, and theamount contributed, and posting it on
the Grand Staircase, as well as a listof those who had not contributed yet.
It wasn't long until those women'snames were added to the list
of those who had contributed.
You
were making a naughty
and nice list.
(24:29):
I guess you could call it that.
But I felt so badly for these women.
They had nothing.
I had so much.
And so did these ladies.
We weren't going to be destitute.
I thought it was ourChristian duty to help them
out.
Right.
Astor is going to bejust fine as well as you.
(24:50):
, I was reading about this and , there isdocumentation that you went out of your
way to make sure that the survivors forthe ship were taken care of, and they
had a place to go, and they got support.
And now I see exactly what you'resaying with all of the men gone.
And.
, this is a time where women can'tvote yet, and, , there are some
limitations that make , a woman tryingto make her own way more difficult,
(25:15):
and they would need that support.
It's surprising that the otherwomen, with means, wouldn't be all
over this like you are.
Let me say two things to that.
First, Madeline AsterWhat's not all right.
She was pregnant.
She had lost her husband.
That is not all right.
She was devastated.
So out of the goodness of her heart, shegave even though she was grieving greatly.
(25:41):
As far as the women not being ableto make it in the new world, many
of these women were immigrants.
I'd say vast majority of themwere immigrants that were in need.
Many did not even speak English.
Now, I speak many languages, and thatwas one reason why I was so invaluable
on the Titanic as well as on theCarpathia, because I could speak to
(26:03):
many of them in their own languages andcomfort them, and that was another thing.
Some of them.
The doctors, the people on board saidthese women will be fine, just give
them some place to, to stay, give thema blanket, don't worry about them,
and I said, no, they're not all right.
Emotionally, mentally, thesewomen are having Breakdowns,
(26:27):
we have to listen to them.
So I arranged for times where they couldcome to us there in the restaurant.
We set it aside for them to come in andthey could tell us what their concerns
were and we could listen to them.
And they felt relieved justbecause they knew somebody cared
that they were being listened to.
Sometimes that was all that was needed.
(26:48):
Yes, when we made it to New York City.
I stayed on the ship, making surethat every single passenger had
somewhere to go, whether it was toan embassy, to a family, to a friend,
and I documented where everybody went.
So I was the last survivorto leave that ship.
(27:10):
I wanted to make sure that I did myjob, and I did it, to the effect I
was named Chairman of the SurvivorsCommittee, and I still hold that
position, and I take it very seriously.
. I can't even imagine what it wouldhave been like for all of these
people had they not had somebodylike you looking out for them.
And yet you mentioned that youwere on the Survivors Council or
(27:34):
the head of the Survivors Council.
And I'm wondering if, , in asituation like this, sometimes
people deal with survivor's guilt.
, all of these people had passedand, , , you were fortunate enough
to be thrown into one of these boats.
Do you have some of those feelings,some of that survivor's guilt?
Is that something you've had, you've
struggled with?
No, not really, but there weredefinitely some of the men
(27:57):
that were on the Carpathia.
Remember I told you about thosetwo men that picked me up and they
threw me into lifeboat number six?
I encountered them one day near therestaurant on the Carpathia and they
both looked at me very sheepishly.
And I found out who they were and Ithanked them profusely for saving my life.
They were both buyers thatat department store.
(28:19):
And, they said that they were tryingnot to be seen because they felt As
you said, very guilty that they wereamong the living when many men were not.
And that seemed to be the generalfeeling of most all of the men that
survived, except Bruce Ismay, of course.
But on the Titanic and the Carpathia,I simply did my duty as I saw it.
(28:47):
I knew that I was healthy and strong.
I'm sure there's nothing I didthroughout the whole affair that
anyone else wouldn't have done.
Now that I did help some, I am thankful.
regret is that I couldnot have assisted more.
I truly wish I could have done more.
(29:07):
I think you definitely did doyour part before and after.
One thing that I'm thinking about is,, you have this reputation for standing
up for women, whether it has to do withthis terrible incident on the Titanic,
or women's right to vote and, , back inthe early days, how you were standing up.
, for minors and Leadville and children.
I mean, it's it seems likeyou're always standing
(29:29):
up.
I'm sorry.
And also Ludlow.
What's Ludlow?
Ludlow was where the workers weretrying to, it was a mine, and they
were trying to organize to have minimumwage and maximum work hours and to have
collective bargaining, the things thatyou would think that they should have.
(29:50):
And instead They were thrownout, , of their company homes.
I was called in tomitigate this in Colorado.
They had been, as I found out,working 6 to 7 days a week, 12
to 15 hours a day, in variousdangerous and unhealthy conditions.
So they were thrown out of theircompany homes when they went on strike.
(30:11):
And there were agents that werehired by the Coal mining owners, and
they surrounded them in this camp,and they started firing on them.
There were six miners who werekilled, and then there was a fire
that broke out, and in that, twowomen and eleven children were killed.
One of my friends, JohnRockefeller, was owner of this mine.
(30:33):
So, on behalf of the miners, and Ihad gone there with an open mind.
But as I saw and heard what they hadexperienced, I went to John Rockefeller
and I told him that he needed to putinto practice what he had been teaching
his Sunday school class, and thatwas that we are our brother's keeper.
(30:57):
He needed to live up towhat he was preaching.
When you say John Rockefelleris one of your friends, is he
the richest person in the world
at this time?
I'm not really sure about that.
But he is definitely oneof the wealthiest, yes.
A person that can attain thekind of wealth that he has, I am
(31:18):
surprised that he can be drivenoff of his course in any way.
he listen to you?
, did he talk to you as a friend?
Minor changes were made, but notnearly what should have been done.
Mrs.
Brown,
You know how rich people get.
, not all rich people, but some rich people.
They get money, and they think, I'mtaken care of, and so maybe I don't
(31:39):
have to worry about everything else.
And it doesn't seem like Youever developed that disease of
caring for yourself first andforgetting your fellow man.
But why is this so important to you?
, you have everything that you need.
Why is it so important to you that yourtime has to be spent in these causes?
Probably because of how I was raised.
(32:02):
My parents were Irishimmigrants and we had nothing.
My father was a day laborer for the gasworks there in Hannibal, Missouri, where
I was born in that little tiny house up onthe hill and Even though we didn't have a
lot, there was love in our house, and myparents held a lot of belief in education,
(32:23):
so I was able to attend school until Iwas 13, and then I went to work in the
tobacco factory stripping the leaves, soI've always felt That my parents believed
in hard work, in taking care of yourfellow man, my parents were involved in
the abolition movement, and so I justbelieve that I was supposed to give
(32:48):
back, and when we became quite wealthy,I mean, I had married a poor man, but
when he struck gold in that silver mine,we , became millionaires within the year,
so I had been a taker, and now I feltI needed to be a giver as well but even
before that, I was in the soup kitchens,When money was no longer based on silver,
(33:10):
there was quite a depression in Leadville.
The silver mines were no longer worth whatthey had been, and there were many miners
out of work, a lot of poverty depression,so I helped out by being in the soup
kitchens and then, of course, after wemade our money and we moved to Denver,
I helped form the women's club there.
(33:31):
I helped get public toilets,libraries I did all sorts of
things , in Denver to help people out.
I believe that was what I was supposedto do, that I had been given the money
for a reason, not just to spend it,which I did, and I did quite, Happily
(33:52):
traveling and as you should have.
Taking classes and becoming veryproficient in classical guitar and
in yodeling and studying literatureand drama and I spent my money well.
You certainly have a lot of interest.
, I want to come back to Leadvillein a moment here because I can
(34:12):
see where this comes from now.
This is very clear because saidyour parents were immigrants.
Yes.
Is it true that one of themwas involved in the Underground
Railroad directly?
My father had some hand init, but he was very quiet and
didn't talk a lot about that.
, I believe it was my mother's familywas involved in some of the The
(34:33):
troubles that they were having inIreland too before they emigrated.
So I come from the family of activists.
Yeah, I read that your mother wasinvolved with the Irish resistance.
Yes.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sensethat you would then grow up seeing
them looking for a cause and thengo look for to find your own cause.
Of course, You took a different approach.
(34:54):
It sounds like they maybe had a couple ofcauses and you decided that you were just
going to fix everything and uh, Which isfantastic while you were learning to play
the guitar and yodel and everything else.
. One of the things that I amvery good at is fundraising.
So I was able to help a lot ofcauses simply by raising the funds.
(35:18):
I'm a good organizer and one ofthe things was the Carnival of
Nations Festival that I did tohelp raise funds for the Immaculate
Conception Cathedral in, in Denver.
And so I organized this, thiswas just two years after the
Louisiana Purchase Exhibition in St.
Louis.
So I thought I'd do something similar.
(35:38):
So I invited the Chinese, the Indians,the Mexicans, the Italians, the Negroes,
the Irish, and, of course, the people theycame except for, of course, , that elite
group in Denver society, the Sacred 36.
The Denver 400 came,but the Sacred 36, Mrs.
(35:59):
Crawford Hill's elite,they did not attend.
And they complained because they saidthat the Chinese should not be there.
And I said well, after all, they built therailroad, so of course they should come.
And then they complainedabout the Indians.
This was when Denver thought that theonly good Indian was a dead Indian.
But yet, it got a lot of publicity.
(36:21):
Maybe bad, but any publicity isgood, and I raised a lot of funds.
So the next year when I puton the Catholic Fair, I had
to do something even better.
So this time I invited the Jews.
Is there anybody you don't like?
I don't like people who takeadvantage of other people.
Who think that they are betterthan them, and they cheat, and they
(36:42):
swindle, and they mistreat others.
It doesn't really matter ifthey're black, or white, or jews.
If they mistreat people, those arethe people that you don't like.
You got it.
What about the wealthy?
There are good wealthy people.,like Alva Vanderbilt Belmont.
She , has the house there in Newportand of course I have a little cottage,
(37:03):
a 46 room cottage in Newport andtogether she and I and a few others
we planned the convention for greatwomen in her home in Marblehead
and we helped women to organize.
In the suffrage movement and we hadthese meetings she was definitely
using her wealth for a good cause.
(37:25):
So it's, no, it's not all ofthe wealthy that are like that.
, I actually wanna talk about Denver for aminute, , I think you just said , either
you had or she had a 46 room cottage, did
you say that?
Oh, I'm sorry.
43 rooms.
Oh, okay.
But it's just a little cottage, right?
With 43 rooms, right?
Yes.
(37:45):
Okay.
All right.
Let's back up for a minute.
I need to get clear onwhat the sacred 36 is.
I'm a little confused on that.
What
is that?
Mrs.
Crawford Hill believed that she wasin charge of all the elite goings on,
that she was upper crust of society.
So everybody had to meet a certainstandard in order to be included in this.
(38:09):
And because I was a little too Irish anda little too Catholic and a little bit
too new to Denver, I was not accepted.
But I was very much in with the400, very active in society there,
just not in her snobby little group.
And she was not much different than I was.
(38:30):
She was a southerner who had emigratedto Denver, so she wasn't exactly
one of those original people either.
think in your time you would have beenconsidered new money, are you saying,
would she have been considered new
money too?
Yes, hers was just a little bitolder than mine, but not that much.
And she thought that made her better.
(38:50):
Yes, and after the Titanic, sheactually hosted a dinner party for me.
So I guess I finally met her standard.
Well, I'm sure it was a hot topicof conversation and she probably
wanted to be a part of that.
, nobody wants to not be around theperson , with the reputation that
you have of,, trying to save morepeople and everything that you did.
(39:14):
She just wanted the attention.
You're right.
Yeah, maybe.
Tell me about Denver.
You were in Leadville, Coloradofirst, and then you moved to Denver.
. Tell me about Denver, because in ourtime, Denver is a wonderful place to live.
Beautiful mountains growingcity, but that is not what Denver
(39:34):
looked like when you moved there.
Is that correct?
Let me go back a little bit toLeadville and how I got to Denver.
I mentioned earlier how My husband, J.
J., had struck gold in this silver mine.
When I first met him, it wasat a Catholic church picnic.
I had moved from my hometown ofHannibal to Leadville to seek gold,
(39:58):
the kind as in a wedding band.
I was looking for a very rich husband.
But I met J.
j.
at this picnic, and hefell madly in love with me.
But he was just a foreman.
At the mining company and I decided,was I going to hold out to get a rich
(40:18):
husband or was I going to marry someoneI loved even though he had no money and
I decided to marry JJ because I was inlove with him and within a few years
we added two children to our household.
I guess we were marriedabout seven years, and J.
j.
had been studying on the side all thesegeology books and engineering, and he
(40:40):
came up with this idea of using haybales, straw bales, and timbers, a way
to support the mine roof so there weren'tcave ins so you could get in deeper.
And they allowed him to try thismethod on the Little Johnny Mine.
It was very successful, and they struckgold, so the company was so happy with
(41:02):
him that they gave him 12, 500 sharesin the company, which was a considerable
chunk of what the company had, and withinthe year, we were multi millionaires.
So that enabled us to have thefunds then to move to Denver.
So we bought a house.
We call it the house of lions becauseof the two big concrete lines that
(41:24):
sit out front on Pennsylvania andalso Avoca, a 400 acre farm where my
husband, JJ, he'd like to plant allthese fruit trees and he had his chicken
village and I would hold fundraisersthere like for a judge Ben Lindsey and
take people out , on horseback ride,throw great parties for the children.
(41:49):
It was a wonderful time in mylife and I had always wanted.
To give my father a respite someplacethat he could put his feet up.
So he was able and my mother to move inwith us there and I was finally able to
give that to him to have an easy way oflife because they had worked so hard.
(42:09):
I believe they deserve that.
And those were some ofthe best years of my life.
My, my father and JJ would sitthere in front of the fire and
tell stories and the children wouldlisten and It was a wonderful time.
It seems like you and JJhad a good relationship.
, here you go looking for a man who iswealthy, and you find a man that you love
(42:32):
instead that just ends up being wealthy.
It sounds like he was,
I should tell you, we have beenseparated now for about 13 years
What an incredible person.
I mean, that's how lifeis supposed to be lived.
We all have challenges, but are theymore difficult than being on a sinking
ship in the middle of the freezing ocean?
And yet she doesn'tmiss a beat immediately.
(42:53):
She transforms into the organizerfundraiser to make sure that every
one of less means is taken care of.
In the next episode, we'll talkabout her husband, JJ, and the
indiscretion that might've played arole in the ending of their marriage.
We'll talk about Margaret leading theway for the creation of juvenile courts so
that children were not serving time withmurders after stealing a loaf of bread.
(43:16):
And we'll talk about whatour plans are for the future.
I'm glad you're enjoying this podcast.
And if you haven't yet subscribednow, and we'll see you at the next
episode of the calling history podcast.
With part two of theunsinkable, Margaret Brown.
Um, Tony Dean.
And today we'll be calling history tospeak with the unsinkable Molly brown,
who by the way, never went by Molly.
No one called her Molly except in 1933,when writer, gene Fowler, for some reason
just changed her name and his book.
And then it stuck forever.
Nonetheless, the rest of hernickname is absolutely correct.
(00:49):
Margaret or Mrs.
JJ brown, as she was often called wasn't.
In fact, unsinkable, our discussion takesplace on the 10th anniversary of her
surviving, the sinking of the Titanic.
You would think that Margaret was donetaking big passenger ships after that,
but no way as a self-proclaimed daughterof adventure she had stuffed to do
(01:11):
while traveling.
She found herself once on a shipcalled the Lusitania that was sunk
by German U boats in world war.
Fortunately, she was not on theship at that time when it sunk.
But Margaret was much morethan this one event that
dominated the story of her life.
She was rich really rich,but she wasn't selfish.
She used her wealth throughout herlife to improve the lives of others
(01:34):
while she was traveling the worldin ships that would eventually sink.
But enjoying every minute of being alive.
Margaret helped miners in Coloradofight for fair pay and reasonable hours.
She spoke several languages.
She attempted to run for Senate beforewomen were even able to vote nationally
and even help the people of France recoverafter the tragedy of world war one.
(01:57):
Yet while serving those lessfortunate, she never stopped pursuing
her dream of being an actress.
She was focused,
living a rich life ofexperiences and service.
Ladies and gentlemen,fellow history, lovers
and traveling companions ofJohn Jacob Astor everywhere.
I give you the unsinkable, Molly.
(02:17):
I mean, Margaret Brown.
Hello, is that you
Mrs.
Brown?
It is indeed.
Mrs.
Brown, it is a pleasure to speak with you.
My name is Tony Dean.
I'm talking to you from thefuture in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding is calleda smartphone and it allows us to speak as
if we were arm's length from one another.
(02:39):
It also allows me to share a record of ourconversation with people around the world.
And ma'am, It appears that eitherthrough divine intervention or
incredible luck that you survivedthe unimaginable ten years ago.
And I was just hoping that Icould ask you some questions, but
before I do, I understand thisis a very strange introduction.
(03:02):
Can I answer any questionsyou may have first?
I find this an unusual piece of moderntechnology, I guess you would say.
I do have a phone in my home, butit does not look anything like this.
Much bigger.
They are much differentnow than they used to be.
In fact, some of these phones right noware smaller than the size of your palm.
(03:23):
What's in your home?
Oh, it's a much larger one.
It's on the wall, and I have to havethe operator connect us, and you
can't call everywhere, of coursebut it is very handy to have.
I think that in our time, you would enjoythe way that we use these now, because I
know that you've done a lot of travelingin your time some very unsuccessful and,
(03:45):
and other very successfully, but you canjust call anybody at any place in the
world, at any time, at almost no cost.
. That is amazing, because sendingcables is quite expensive.
That's how we communicatemostly around the world.
There was a significant moment inyour life that, of course, you're
(04:05):
going to know exactly what I'm talkingabout, that people are going to
want to hear about first from you.
And it is about thesinking of the Titanic.
And I guess what I'm wondering is,how did you even end up on that
ship?
Oh I hadn't intended to be on it, but Iwas traveling with my daughter, Helen, and
we had first gone to Egypt with the JohnJacob Astor and his new wife, Madeline,
(04:27):
and we were traveling around there andthen on to Paris, and I got a cable
saying that my newly born grandchild,my, my son Larry's son, was very ill.
And so I sought passage on the firstship back to the United States, and
that happened to be the Titanic.
So,
had something not happened to yourgrandchild, you would have never been on
(04:50):
that ship, at least not on that particular
voyage.
No, not at that time.
I had planned to do much moretouring around Europe before
returning to the United States.
. My daughter, Helen, though, she wasstudying in Paris at Sorbonne and some
of her friends wanted her to come toLondon for them during the season.
So she decided not to get on the Titanicwith me, but to continue on to London.
(05:14):
And I was so very thankful that decisionwas made and she was not with me.
Oh, that was close.
So were you, as far as family,were you the only person in your
family that was on the ship?
Yes, I was, yes.
I had some friends that wereon there, Emma Bucknell and Dr.
Arthur Brew.
They boarded at Cherbourg,the same place I did.
(05:37):
So, tell me a little bit about whatthat was like getting on the Titanic.
Tell me about what happened whenyou first got on the ship that's
an adventure in itself, obviously.
What did that look
like?
We took a train from Paris and itwas late coming from Liverpool and
we ended up having to stand outsideon the dock waiting for about an hour
before we were able to get on the ship.
(05:58):
And Emma kept saying thatsomething was going to happen.
She just had this dreadful feeling.
And of course, we said it was justthe anxiety of having to travel and
going back to her family, that it'salways very stressful to do this.
So we got on the tender.
And got out to the ship, and as Isaid, it was cold, but not that cold.
(06:20):
And the usual day on theTitanic, I would get up and take
a brisk walk around the ship.
I would go to the gym, and Iwould pummel at the hanging bag.
And I would read a lot, and of course,interact with my friends, and have dinner
with them, and have tea in the afternoon.
And I enjoyed it.
(06:41):
It was a very Wonderful time,until the last day, of course.
How many days were you on the ship?
I boarded on , April 10th, therein Cherbourg, and it was on
the 14th, just before midnight,when it struck the iceberg.
So you're having the time of yourlife, you're thinking that this ship
(07:01):
has got to be just a marvel, andthen there is the first announcement,
or what happened that led you tobelieve that something was wrong?
The day had been just like any other dayexcept it was Sabbath day and Captain
Smith He had led the worship service.
We he read from the common book ofprayers and Again, just a typical day.
(07:24):
I had my lunch at the verandacafe, did some more walking.
It was very cold though, so youdidn't spend much time outside.
And I had gone to dinner thatnight and was lying in bed reading.
And , just before midnight, there wasa bump and I was thrown out of my bed.
(07:44):
And I found myself on the floor.
I had no idea what had happened, but Igot back in bed and continued reading.
And then I heard voicesout in the hallway.
So I peeked out and I saw peopleout there talking, but they didn't
seem like anything was amiss.
They were chatting veryanimatedly, so I went back to
(08:06):
bed and started reading again.
And then what I heard More commotionand my curtains moved a little bit
and I looked out and I saw this manand he looked like he was gasping
for air and his eyes were bulgingand he said, get your life preserver.
So I thought I better find out what wasgoing on and I put on some clothes and.
(08:29):
I I put on quite a few clothes.
I put on seven pairs of socks.
I grabbed a sable that I wrappedaround my shoulders, a silk
hood over my head, a capote.
And I stuck a little talisman thatI had got in Egypt in my pocket.
It was turquoise.
And 500, I put that in a pouch whichI put under my clothes, . And grabbed
(08:53):
a blanket and I went out and went upon deck to see what was happening.
And I went over on one side ofthe ship and saw some people and
I started encouraging them becausewe just thought this was a drill.
We thought that people would begetting in the lifeboats and they
would be back in no amount of time.
So people did not want to getinto the lifeboats because
(09:14):
they thought, why bother?
They thought it was safer on the ship.
I started to realize that it was morethan that, so I was encouraging the
women, because on the side that I wasin, they were saying women and children
to get in, and so I was encouraging someof them that wanted to go back and get
their valuables, I said, no, there'sno time, you need to get in now, and I
(09:36):
thought I'll go see what's happening onthe other side, and just as I started
to cross, two men came from behind meand lifted me by my elbows and threw
me four feet down into the lifeboat.
So, I really didn't havemuch choice in the matter.
They
picked you up and just threw you
(09:57):
in?
Yes, they did.
. So, I was in the lifeboat and I lookedand I only saw one man in there.
And that was Robert Hitchens,a very craven creature.
He was the quartermaster.
The rest appeared to be women.
Then they had Major Puchin.
(10:17):
They were yelling from men thatwe needed men in our lifeboat.
And so he said that he was a seaman.
And he was able to swing out becauseat that point the lifeboat was canting
away from the ship and he was ableto manage to get into our lifeboat.
And so as far as I knew,there were only two men.
(10:39):
They threw another little boy in andthat poor boy, we found out later, he
had actually broken one of his arms.
. So, when you say that they're throwingpeople in, they actually threw you
in, and they threw this boy in wherehe hit the boat and broke a bone.
I mean, they literally are
throwing people.
I wouldn't say they threw many people in.
Most people entered by choice.
(11:01):
And many people, of course, wanted to goin, husbands especially, with their wives,
but they were denied that entry, at leastin the side of the boat that I was on.
Wow.
Okay.
All right.
Keep going.
So how many people are in the boat now?
Oh, I think there were 27 in all.
But they started lowering us.
(11:22):
And as they did, I noticed that there wasthis big gash in the side of the boat.
And I took my oar and I held itso that we didn't bash into the
ship as they were lowering us.
And it was obvious.
That there had been no practice.
There was not one drill.
(11:42):
Yet, , as generally you would thinkthere would be, and so I, I held it so
our lifeboat didn't crash into the shipas the water was gushing out of this
gash, and teetering back and forth,we thought we were going to be spilled
into the ocean, and finally we madeit down and splashed in, and I looked
(12:04):
up, and I could see Captain Smith.
He was standing there, and I had beenon ships other times that he was the
captain, so I, I knew who he was, buthe had this venerable white hair, and
he held himself very uprightly, but Icould hear him saying that we should stay
(12:25):
together and to row toward the light tomake sure we got away from the ship, and
so, We started rowing away and immediatelythis Hitchens, he started saying that we
were going to be sucked under either bythe ship going down or for some unknown
reason that none of us were going tosurvive, he just kept going on and on
(12:49):
like this about how we were all doomed andhe was just misery, the craven creature.
What a terrible person tobe , leading the expedition to
get away from the boat.
Yes, you can say that again.
Yes he was just doom and gloom theentire time, but he had his hand on the
rudder, so we didn't have much choice.
(13:10):
He at first said that we justneeded to go out and stop, and
he, oh, he heard the captain.
The captain said, come back,and we said, you're crazy.
The captain's, we're too far away tohear the captain, and so we started
rolling in, and of course he wouldn'tallow anybody else to man the rudder.
Even though he complained all thetime of being cold, I said if you
(13:30):
would just get your hands on one ofthe oars and start rowing it would
warm you up, but of course he wouldnot do that, he wouldn't give it up.
So we rowed away and we couldhear the music playing and
then we heard it slowly fading.
We heard gunshots at times.
We were told later that it was shootingto keep some of the passengers off
(13:52):
the boats, or other people saidthat it was the boilers exploding.
But then came the moment
We heard this big, loud noise as the,
the boat started tilting upright.
And everything started crashing downfrom one side of the ship to the other,
and the people were screaming, and eachof us on our lifeboat, we were calling
(14:17):
out the name of a loved one, and I wasso thankful that my Helen was not there.
I tried to look away, but I couldn't.
My eyes were glued to that shipas it disappeared under the ocean.
The surface, it foamed up like giantarms spread out around that ship as it
disappeared out of sight, and we couldhear the people, they were crying out.
(14:40):
And many on our boat said, we haveto go back, we have to rescue these
people, but Hitchens would not turn.
He said our boat would beswamped and we would all die.
And they were deadalready, as good as dead.
He wouldn't allow us to go back.
It was the most horrible thing I have ever
(15:00):
experienced.
? So you're in the boat right now.
Hitchens will not turn back.
And you can hear people screamingfor help, is that right?
For a while.
And then their voices all faded too.
And we knew they were gone.
So what
happened next?
, did somebody convince him to turnaround and look for survivors?
(15:20):
Or did you wait?
No.
He wouldn't.
We just continued on.
We kept rowing.
And I kept encouraging the otherwomen to row two because that
was the only way to keep warm.
I had given away six of my sevenpairs of socks to other people.
We rowed and
Hitchens made a stop because we sawother boats and he had them come and
(15:42):
latch up to us and of course we weregetting cold and there was a stoker
on one of the other ones and hewas in his, it looked like pajamas.
He didn't have much on, just asweater and he came over and got in
our lifeboat since we Needed somemen there, and I took my sable off
and I wrapped it from his waist downaround his legs to try to warm him up.
(16:04):
And I was trying to get him to let usmove again so that we could be warm.
And Hitchens swore at me.
He said that I needed to learn myplace, that he was in charge, and
the stoker, he started tellinghim that was no way to talk.
Treat a lady and I threatened to throwHitchens overboard and as I approached
(16:26):
him, they held me back or I would
have.
So what did it look like at night?
So here you are, there's a handfulof boats, everybody's doing the best
they can to stay warm everybody'sscared to death obviously.
What is, what does it look like?
Did it get quiet then?
Was the night clear where you could see
stars?
(16:46):
Yes, we can see the stars shining andwe can see reflection off of them of the
icebergs and smell them all around us.
They put out this musty smell and yes,it was very frightening, especially
since Hitchens kept saying thatthere was no food, no water in our
lifeboat, that we were going to die.
As I said, he was a despicable
(17:07):
creature.
Terrible.
And you probably only needed a coupledays and then you would have been
eating him because that would havebeen the only value he could have
provided.
That's a novel thought.
I hadn't thought of that before.
So now, , as you're sitting in the boatand everybody's cold and you're sharing
your socks, boy I can't believe you hadthe foresight to put all these pairs
(17:30):
of socks on , how full was the boat?
How much space was in the boat
still?
There was quite a lotof space in our boat.
We could have fit manymore people in there.
Could you have doubled what was in there?
Most likely, yes.
What a shame.
In order to start rowing again, wehad to cut the ties between the boats.
We could not row together.
(17:50):
So that was one of the things hewas trying to prevent happening.
He didn't want , that to happen.
So that's one reason I wasin this argument with him.
We had to do it in order to keep warm.
We would have all frozen if we hadjust sat there with the wind howling
around us and the cold creeping into us.
We had frost on us.
I had frostbite back when Ilived in Leadville, but this was
(18:15):
as cold as then, if not colder.
So now you're in theboat and you're rowing.
And there's probably after this, Iguess maybe there's this quiet calm
where people don't know what to do.
So what do you do next?
Does Hitchens, does he startshowing some leadership qualities?
Does somebody stand upand say, let's do this?
, what happens over the next several hours?
Someone saw a light and theythought it was another ship.
(18:40):
And Hitchens says, Oh no, there's noships coming here that if they are,
they're just here to pick up thestiffs, they're not going to rescue us.
And someone said, Oh, it's theOlympic because they thought it
was going to be passing by soon.
Well, Actually, the Olympic didn'tpass by for a couple more days.
It was not the Olympic.
(19:00):
And we realized when a man's voicespoke up and said, it's the Carpathia.
She's a good ship we did haveanother man here on board.
Which Frederick Fleet, the lookout, hehad put a blanket over his head to keep
warm and people assumed it was a woman.
(19:21):
But we actually did have anotherman on our boat with us, and he
said, she's here to rescue us.
I know she's a good ship.
So we could see other lifeboatsby this time, and they were
approaching the Carpathia.
It took us quite a while.
It was a number of miles still away,and by the time we got there, the sea,
(19:42):
which had been very Glassy and stillhad begun to whip up and was very
rocky and waves were crashing around.
So we had a very difficult timeas we approached the Carpathia.
In order to get up to it, they loweredropes down with a seat and they made
(20:03):
a makeshift Jacob's Ladder on it.
And one by one, they hauled us up.
Up onto the ship and immediatelygave us stimulants and coffee
and warm clothes and blankets.
I cannot say enough goodthings about Captain Rostron
and the people there on board.
The Carpathia.
(20:23):
The ship was headed to theMediterranean, so it was.
It's full of food and it onlyhad about half occupancy.
Fortunately for us, meant there was a lotof food and there was space to fit us in.
Now there weren't enough rooms foreverybody, but between restaurants
and the other public spaces on board,a place was found for everyone.
(20:47):
I can't imagine anybody was even concernedabout whether or not they had a room.
They just wanted to get out ofthe boat and get out of the water.
Anything to not be floating in that water.
One of those people who wantedto make sure that they had a very
private cabin was Bruce Ismay.
The managing director of the WhiteStar Line that owned the Titanic.
(21:08):
, he wanted his own cabin oncehe got on the Carpathia.
, he was not one of those obviouslybelieved in women and children.
Only, or even first.
He made his way on one ofthose collapsible lifeboats.
So, when he was rescued onto theCarpathia, he immediately took refuge in
one of the cabins and refused to come out.
(21:29):
He's such a coward.
Oh, this guy's fantastic.
I can't even imagine that.
He's the one that owned the Titanic,and he gets off it, and he's
like, I gotta have my own room.
And I hold him personally responsible,him and Captain Smith, for what happened.
The Titanic should no more run intoan iceberg than the Brown Palace
(21:51):
Hotel in Denver run into Pikes Peak.
It was so unnecessary and avoidable.
He was wanting to get to a dinnerparty in New York City, so he was
pushing the limits and trying to seta speed record to get there in time.
So what about the captain?
Bruce Ismay was trying to set thisspeed record, which was a mistake, , he
(22:13):
shouldn't be in a rush with people'slives, so when you say you blame it on
the captain, how is it the captain'sfault if he's just following orders?
Because he shouldn't havefollowed those orders.
He knew what could happen.
He knew that there wereicebergs all around.
He had been warned, manytimes he had been warned.
, he should have known better.
Rather than listening to someonewho doesn't have nearly the
(22:36):
navigational experience as you do.
So, now
you're on the Carpathia.
And you guys get somefood and you warm up.
What happens next?
I started organizing.
That's what I do best.
Organizing and fundraising.
So I started making a list of everybodythat was rescued from all the classes,
(22:57):
where they were from, where they weregoing, if they had anybody there to,
vouch for them, to take care of themonce they made it to the United States,
and I started raising funds because somany of these rescued people were women.
Women who had lost their husbands,they had lost their support, they
lost every single thing they owned.
(23:21):
Many of their children were lost as well.
They had to start overagain without a breadwinner.
And so I was trying to raisefunds in order for them to be
able to survive in the new world.
Madeline Astor, the widow now of JohnJacob Astor, contributed greatly to
that fund and I raised 10, 000 beforewe reached New York City, 2, 000 from
(23:48):
Madeline, and there were some women,though, who I encountered out on the
deck, and I told them I hadn't seen theirname on the list of the contributors.
And they said once we get to NewYork City, we will be going on our
way, we'll be staying in our favoritehotel, you'll be at yours at the Ritz
Carlton, why worry about these women?
(24:08):
Well, I started making a list, and theamount contributed, and posting it on
the Grand Staircase, as well as a listof those who had not contributed yet.
It wasn't long until those women'snames were added to the list
of those who had contributed.
You
were making a naughty
and nice list.
(24:29):
I guess you could call it that.
But I felt so badly for these women.
They had nothing.
I had so much.
And so did these ladies.
We weren't going to be destitute.
I thought it was ourChristian duty to help them
out.
Right.
Astor is going to bejust fine as well as you.
(24:50):
, I was reading about this and , there isdocumentation that you went out of your
way to make sure that the survivors forthe ship were taken care of, and they
had a place to go, and they got support.
And now I see exactly what you'resaying with all of the men gone.
And.
, this is a time where women can'tvote yet, and, , there are some
limitations that make , a woman tryingto make her own way more difficult,
(25:15):
and they would need that support.
It's surprising that the otherwomen, with means, wouldn't be all
over this like you are.
Let me say two things to that.
First, Madeline AsterWhat's not all right.
She was pregnant.
She had lost her husband.
That is not all right.
She was devastated.
So out of the goodness of her heart, shegave even though she was grieving greatly.
(25:41):
As far as the women not being ableto make it in the new world, many
of these women were immigrants.
I'd say vast majority of themwere immigrants that were in need.
Many did not even speak English.
Now, I speak many languages, and thatwas one reason why I was so invaluable
on the Titanic as well as on theCarpathia, because I could speak to
(26:03):
many of them in their own languages andcomfort them, and that was another thing.
Some of them.
The doctors, the people on board saidthese women will be fine, just give
them some place to, to stay, give thema blanket, don't worry about them,
and I said, no, they're not all right.
Emotionally, mentally, thesewomen are having Breakdowns,
(26:27):
we have to listen to them.
So I arranged for times where they couldcome to us there in the restaurant.
We set it aside for them to come in andthey could tell us what their concerns
were and we could listen to them.
And they felt relieved justbecause they knew somebody cared
that they were being listened to.
Sometimes that was all that was needed.
(26:48):
Yes, when we made it to New York City.
I stayed on the ship, making surethat every single passenger had
somewhere to go, whether it was toan embassy, to a family, to a friend,
and I documented where everybody went.
So I was the last survivorto leave that ship.
(27:10):
I wanted to make sure that I did myjob, and I did it, to the effect I
was named Chairman of the SurvivorsCommittee, and I still hold that
position, and I take it very seriously.
. I can't even imagine what it wouldhave been like for all of these
people had they not had somebodylike you looking out for them.
And yet you mentioned that youwere on the Survivors Council or
(27:34):
the head of the Survivors Council.
And I'm wondering if, , in asituation like this, sometimes
people deal with survivor's guilt.
, all of these people had passedand, , , you were fortunate enough
to be thrown into one of these boats.
Do you have some of those feelings,some of that survivor's guilt?
Is that something you've had, you've
struggled with?
No, not really, but there weredefinitely some of the men
(27:57):
that were on the Carpathia.
Remember I told you about thosetwo men that picked me up and they
threw me into lifeboat number six?
I encountered them one day near therestaurant on the Carpathia and they
both looked at me very sheepishly.
And I found out who they were and Ithanked them profusely for saving my life.
They were both buyers thatat department store.
(28:19):
And, they said that they were tryingnot to be seen because they felt As
you said, very guilty that they wereamong the living when many men were not.
And that seemed to be the generalfeeling of most all of the men that
survived, except Bruce Ismay, of course.
But on the Titanic and the Carpathia,I simply did my duty as I saw it.
(28:47):
I knew that I was healthy and strong.
I'm sure there's nothing I didthroughout the whole affair that
anyone else wouldn't have done.
Now that I did help some, I am thankful.
regret is that I couldnot have assisted more.
I truly wish I could have done more.
(29:07):
I think you definitely did doyour part before and after.
One thing that I'm thinking about is,, you have this reputation for standing
up for women, whether it has to do withthis terrible incident on the Titanic,
or women's right to vote and, , back inthe early days, how you were standing up.
, for minors and Leadville and children.
I mean, it's it seems likeyou're always standing
(29:29):
up.
I'm sorry.
And also Ludlow.
What's Ludlow?
Ludlow was where the workers weretrying to, it was a mine, and they
were trying to organize to have minimumwage and maximum work hours and to have
collective bargaining, the things thatyou would think that they should have.
(29:50):
And instead They were thrownout, , of their company homes.
I was called in tomitigate this in Colorado.
They had been, as I found out,working 6 to 7 days a week, 12
to 15 hours a day, in variousdangerous and unhealthy conditions.
So they were thrown out of theircompany homes when they went on strike.
(30:11):
And there were agents that werehired by the Coal mining owners, and
they surrounded them in this camp,and they started firing on them.
There were six miners who werekilled, and then there was a fire
that broke out, and in that, twowomen and eleven children were killed.
One of my friends, JohnRockefeller, was owner of this mine.
(30:33):
So, on behalf of the miners, and Ihad gone there with an open mind.
But as I saw and heard what they hadexperienced, I went to John Rockefeller
and I told him that he needed to putinto practice what he had been teaching
his Sunday school class, and thatwas that we are our brother's keeper.
(30:57):
He needed to live up towhat he was preaching.
When you say John Rockefelleris one of your friends, is he
the richest person in the world
at this time?
I'm not really sure about that.
But he is definitely oneof the wealthiest, yes.
A person that can attain thekind of wealth that he has, I am
(31:18):
surprised that he can be drivenoff of his course in any way.
he listen to you?
, did he talk to you as a friend?
Minor changes were made, but notnearly what should have been done.
Mrs.
Brown,
You know how rich people get.
, not all rich people, but some rich people.
They get money, and they think, I'mtaken care of, and so maybe I don't
(31:39):
have to worry about everything else.
And it doesn't seem like Youever developed that disease of
caring for yourself first andforgetting your fellow man.
But why is this so important to you?
, you have everything that you need.
Why is it so important to you that yourtime has to be spent in these causes?
Probably because of how I was raised.
(32:02):
My parents were Irishimmigrants and we had nothing.
My father was a day laborer for the gasworks there in Hannibal, Missouri, where
I was born in that little tiny house up onthe hill and Even though we didn't have a
lot, there was love in our house, and myparents held a lot of belief in education,
(32:23):
so I was able to attend school until Iwas 13, and then I went to work in the
tobacco factory stripping the leaves, soI've always felt That my parents believed
in hard work, in taking care of yourfellow man, my parents were involved in
the abolition movement, and so I justbelieve that I was supposed to give
(32:48):
back, and when we became quite wealthy,I mean, I had married a poor man, but
when he struck gold in that silver mine,we , became millionaires within the year,
so I had been a taker, and now I feltI needed to be a giver as well but even
before that, I was in the soup kitchens,When money was no longer based on silver,
(33:10):
there was quite a depression in Leadville.
The silver mines were no longer worth whatthey had been, and there were many miners
out of work, a lot of poverty depression,so I helped out by being in the soup
kitchens and then, of course, after wemade our money and we moved to Denver,
I helped form the women's club there.
(33:31):
I helped get public toilets,libraries I did all sorts of
things , in Denver to help people out.
I believe that was what I was supposedto do, that I had been given the money
for a reason, not just to spend it,which I did, and I did quite, Happily
(33:52):
traveling and as you should have.
Taking classes and becoming veryproficient in classical guitar and
in yodeling and studying literatureand drama and I spent my money well.
You certainly have a lot of interest.
, I want to come back to Leadvillein a moment here because I can
(34:12):
see where this comes from now.
This is very clear because saidyour parents were immigrants.
Yes.
Is it true that one of themwas involved in the Underground
Railroad directly?
My father had some hand init, but he was very quiet and
didn't talk a lot about that.
, I believe it was my mother's familywas involved in some of the The
(34:33):
troubles that they were having inIreland too before they emigrated.
So I come from the family of activists.
Yeah, I read that your mother wasinvolved with the Irish resistance.
Yes.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sensethat you would then grow up seeing
them looking for a cause and thengo look for to find your own cause.
Of course, You took a different approach.
(34:54):
It sounds like they maybe had a couple ofcauses and you decided that you were just
going to fix everything and uh, Which isfantastic while you were learning to play
the guitar and yodel and everything else.
. One of the things that I amvery good at is fundraising.
So I was able to help a lot ofcauses simply by raising the funds.
(35:18):
I'm a good organizer and one ofthe things was the Carnival of
Nations Festival that I did tohelp raise funds for the Immaculate
Conception Cathedral in, in Denver.
And so I organized this, thiswas just two years after the
Louisiana Purchase Exhibition in St.
Louis.
So I thought I'd do something similar.
(35:38):
So I invited the Chinese, the Indians,the Mexicans, the Italians, the Negroes,
the Irish, and, of course, the people theycame except for, of course, , that elite
group in Denver society, the Sacred 36.
The Denver 400 came,but the Sacred 36, Mrs.
(35:59):
Crawford Hill's elite,they did not attend.
And they complained because they saidthat the Chinese should not be there.
And I said well, after all, they built therailroad, so of course they should come.
And then they complainedabout the Indians.
This was when Denver thought that theonly good Indian was a dead Indian.
But yet, it got a lot of publicity.
(36:21):
Maybe bad, but any publicity isgood, and I raised a lot of funds.
So the next year when I puton the Catholic Fair, I had
to do something even better.
So this time I invited the Jews.
Is there anybody you don't like?
I don't like people who takeadvantage of other people.
Who think that they are betterthan them, and they cheat, and they
(36:42):
swindle, and they mistreat others.
It doesn't really matter ifthey're black, or white, or jews.
If they mistreat people, those arethe people that you don't like.
You got it.
What about the wealthy?
There are good wealthy people.,like Alva Vanderbilt Belmont.
She , has the house there in Newportand of course I have a little cottage,
(37:03):
a 46 room cottage in Newport andtogether she and I and a few others
we planned the convention for greatwomen in her home in Marblehead
and we helped women to organize.
In the suffrage movement and we hadthese meetings she was definitely
using her wealth for a good cause.
(37:25):
So it's, no, it's not all ofthe wealthy that are like that.
, I actually wanna talk about Denver for aminute, , I think you just said , either
you had or she had a 46 room cottage, did
you say that?
Oh, I'm sorry.
43 rooms.
Oh, okay.
But it's just a little cottage, right?
With 43 rooms, right?
Yes.
(37:45):
Okay.
All right.
Let's back up for a minute.
I need to get clear onwhat the sacred 36 is.
I'm a little confused on that.
What
is that?
Mrs.
Crawford Hill believed that she wasin charge of all the elite goings on,
that she was upper crust of society.
So everybody had to meet a certainstandard in order to be included in this.
(38:09):
And because I was a little too Irish anda little too Catholic and a little bit
too new to Denver, I was not accepted.
But I was very much in with the400, very active in society there,
just not in her snobby little group.
And she was not much different than I was.
(38:30):
She was a southerner who had emigratedto Denver, so she wasn't exactly
one of those original people either.
think in your time you would have beenconsidered new money, are you saying,
would she have been considered new
money too?
Yes, hers was just a little bitolder than mine, but not that much.
And she thought that made her better.
(38:50):
Yes, and after the Titanic, sheactually hosted a dinner party for me.
So I guess I finally met her standard.
Well, I'm sure it was a hot topicof conversation and she probably
wanted to be a part of that.
, nobody wants to not be around theperson , with the reputation that
you have of,, trying to save morepeople and everything that you did.
(39:14):
She just wanted the attention.
You're right.
Yeah, maybe.
Tell me about Denver.
You were in Leadville, Coloradofirst, and then you moved to Denver.
. Tell me about Denver, because in ourtime, Denver is a wonderful place to live.
Beautiful mountains growingcity, but that is not what Denver
(39:34):
looked like when you moved there.
Is that correct?
Let me go back a little bit toLeadville and how I got to Denver.
I mentioned earlier how My husband, J.
J., had struck gold in this silver mine.
When I first met him, it wasat a Catholic church picnic.
I had moved from my hometown ofHannibal to Leadville to seek gold,
(39:58):
the kind as in a wedding band.
I was looking for a very rich husband.
But I met J.
j.
at this picnic, and hefell madly in love with me.
But he was just a foreman.
At the mining company and I decided,was I going to hold out to get a rich
(40:18):
husband or was I going to marry someoneI loved even though he had no money and
I decided to marry JJ because I was inlove with him and within a few years
we added two children to our household.
I guess we were marriedabout seven years, and J.
j.
had been studying on the side all thesegeology books and engineering, and he
(40:40):
came up with this idea of using haybales, straw bales, and timbers, a way
to support the mine roof so there weren'tcave ins so you could get in deeper.
And they allowed him to try thismethod on the Little Johnny Mine.
It was very successful, and they struckgold, so the company was so happy with
(41:02):
him that they gave him 12, 500 sharesin the company, which was a considerable
chunk of what the company had, and withinthe year, we were multi millionaires.
So that enabled us to have thefunds then to move to Denver.
So we bought a house.
We call it the house of lions becauseof the two big concrete lines that
(41:24):
sit out front on Pennsylvania andalso Avoca, a 400 acre farm where my
husband, JJ, he'd like to plant allthese fruit trees and he had his chicken
village and I would hold fundraisersthere like for a judge Ben Lindsey and
take people out , on horseback ride,throw great parties for the children.
(41:49):
It was a wonderful time in mylife and I had always wanted.
To give my father a respite someplacethat he could put his feet up.
So he was able and my mother to move inwith us there and I was finally able to
give that to him to have an easy way oflife because they had worked so hard.
(42:09):
I believe they deserve that.
And those were some ofthe best years of my life.
My, my father and JJ would sitthere in front of the fire and
tell stories and the children wouldlisten and It was a wonderful time.
It seems like you and JJhad a good relationship.
, here you go looking for a man who iswealthy, and you find a man that you love
(42:32):
instead that just ends up being wealthy.
It sounds like he was,
I should tell you, we have beenseparated now for about 13 years
What an incredible person.
I mean, that's how lifeis supposed to be lived.
We all have challenges, but are theymore difficult than being on a sinking
ship in the middle of the freezing ocean?
And yet she doesn'tmiss a beat immediately.
(42:53):
She transforms into the organizerfundraiser to make sure that every
one of less means is taken care of.
In the next episode, we'll talkabout her husband, JJ, and the
indiscretion that might've played arole in the ending of their marriage.
We'll talk about Margaret leading theway for the creation of juvenile courts so
that children were not serving time withmurders after stealing a loaf of bread.
(43:16):
And we'll talk about whatour plans are for the future.
I'm glad you're enjoying this podcast.
And if you haven't yet subscribednow, and we'll see you at the next
episode of the calling history podcast.
With part two of theunsinkable, Margaret Brown.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.