November 27, 2024 • 51 mins
In Part 2 of the 1775 conversation with Thomas Gage, he will explain why Washington and Hancock’s ambitious intentions are more aligned with greed than liberty. He’ll also explain how the Americans were clueless about the bubble of protection the English provided them. And last, he’ll share the details of his final battle that ended his career.
-----
Paul O’Shaughnessy has been a re-enactor with the British 10th Regiment of Foot since 1972, portraying British soldiers and officers of the Boston Garrison, and most recently the much-maligned General Thomas Gage, Governor of the Massachusetts Province for the turbulent year prior to the outbreak of civil war in the Colonies. He can be reached by email at frommage@comcast.net, or by phone at 617.620.8123. He wishes all of His Majesty’s subjects the blessings of Peace and Loyalty to King and Country.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Welcome back to part two of Thomas gage.
In the last episode we discussedthe American colonists.
Selective approach to followinglaws, despite their apparent
belief that they were all lawyers.
We also delved into how the Adamsboys together with John Hancock.
Fueled the flames of rebellion untilanarchy and mob rule took hold.
(00:51):
In this episode, general gaugewill share his perspective on the
similarities between George Washingtonand John Hancock, . Particularly
regarding their true intentions.
He will also reflect on his own misstepsactions that had they been different,
might have ended the war quickly andprevented the United States of America
from ever coming into existence.
(01:12):
Dr.
Church, Dr.
Benjamin Church.
If you were, this is a man who has thaton both sides, there are strong feelings,
I believe, because on your side of thefence, this man is a Patriot that gave you
information about what was going on Andfrom the colonists side, from the American
side, he is going to be seen as a traitorthat deserve nothing less than death.
(01:37):
Are you the one that turned him?
oh no.
He was he simply, he was a, and is today,a gentleman who simply felt as I do, that
these radicals , were taking this too far.
He is a I would say he is a patriot forMassachusetts, as were many others such as
(01:59):
again, my predecessor governor Hutchinson,, argued for the repeal of many of the
more onerous acts of parliament, which Iagree, many of them were not pleasant and
some of them were ill thought through.
But when the bricks begin flying, whenthe houses are burned down, when the
(02:19):
mob takes to the street, when Soldiersare set upon as they walk the streets,
these are unacceptable developments.
And , I believe it was in that period oftime that he began to realize that what
had begun as a struggle for, I wouldcall them colonial rights, if you wish
(02:41):
had become a criminal activity, indeed.
And it is then he began to totell us and provide small hints.
About about where these where thesearms, for example, were being stored.
Again, one must remember, here we havewe have conspiratorial behavior where
(03:01):
there are arms, ammunition and suppliesin support of an army being stored
for the avowed purpose of rebellion.
Again, watch government.
What government anywhere would toleratethat anywhere on the earth in any
Yeah.
Concerning Ben Church, he wasactually going to meetings.
(03:25):
with the Sons of Liberty,
Yes, very much.
So
and then turning thatinformation over to you.
Was he paid for that?
he was Rewarded but not greatly It wasmostly for his expenses he did this out
of a patriotic sense and we helped him forhe had expenses associated with these
(03:49):
activities, but it was not like a bounty.
No, he did this , I think out of thepatriotic motivations of his own heart.
And his horror at the at theincreasingly radical and violent.
And a seditious turn that this thatthis political movement, if I can
(04:10):
call it that had actually taken.
When you say radical and violent, youhad mentioned tarring and feathering
at one point, you said burninghouses, you're talking about violence
in the streets, of course you'dmentioned the destruction of the T.
Can you give me some specificexamples besides the big ones,
the destruction of the T, ofsomething that happened to someone?
(04:33):
Like, do you know someone whowas actually tar and feathered?
Oh, yes, there was a, I do not recall theexact name, but there was a tax collector.
It was one of thecustoms agents in Boston.
They refer to him as a tax collector,but it was, these were duties paid
upon landing of cargo in Boston whichis what pays for the port, for the
(04:57):
the facilities and the protection.
I mean, there are piratesout there and the Royal Navy.
Protects our commerce.
This has to be paid for so, one of our,or duty collectors was hauled out of his
house one night his clothes ripped off.
And he was doused in hot tar,and then covered in feathers.
(05:19):
And I will tell you that is somethingthat sometimes can be fatal.
In his case, it was not.
But it this was a mob directedby and peopled by the very Sons of
Liberty that you had spoken of earlier.
Therefore, Samuel Adams and hisilk were behind it, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, I was speaking withJohn Hancock a while back ago.
(05:41):
And while speaking with John Hancock Iguess I wasn't sure that he was involved
in the destruction of the T, whichyou clearly are already aware of that.
And he said, absolutely.
He was absolutely a hundredpercent involved in that.
And.
When I think of John Hancock,I think, why in the world is he
getting involved with all of this?
(06:03):
I mean, this man has everything.
He has a reputation.
He's loved by the people.
He has everything.
He has respect and money and everything.
Yes,
in the world is hegetting involved in this?
One of the things you had said earlier,you had said that, you know, you
think maybe these people might bedoing this for riches and for money.
(06:24):
But he has all of that, and that leadsme to believe that maybe the taxes
and the restrictions that the crownis putting on people like him are so
egregious that even somebody like him, he had to stand up and risk everything
because the taxes were too high.
I wish it were that simple.
Of course, to get a truthful answer, youmight have to just ask him but I will
(06:46):
opine this far I believe that indeed theissues of the taxes and all is a cover,
it's a sham yes, it's it's an issue Ofsome amount of money, but certainly, as
I think you have pointed out, somethinghe would be completely capable of, my
(07:07):
sense is that his issue and that ofother merchants and mercantiles and
mechanics and such in Boston and inByron's has to do with their future or
their perceptions of their own future.
They see opportunity to tradeoutside of the British system
(07:29):
directly with other parts of Europe.
for that.
They are prohibited from doing soand from purchasing, for example,
tea on that subject from the DutchEast India Company or other entities
in Europe that also have tea.
But if the entire purpose,and this is returning to the
(07:51):
entire concept of the colonies.
Is to operate within the Britishsystem and not be independent and
that there is plenty of wealthto be made inside of that system.
But if it is to survive and ifthe wealth is to stay within and
aggrandize up into the Britishsystem, we must control this trade.
(08:14):
We must control the taxationwithin it and we must control.
where the materials are, wherethey're sold regulate the commerce.
Otherwise, yes, it is a free for all.
And I believe that'sreally what they want.
They want to be able to simply take theirships and go anywhere on the planet.
The difficulty with that is simplythat his majesty the monies that are
(08:39):
required to support the army, theNavy, the government, the regulations.
The protection are not collectedand we would then end up with a Navy
that was insufficient to protectour own commerce on the high seas.
And again, that would lead tomany of these European nations
(09:00):
thinking that they could thenhorn in and grab what they wanted.
, the Americans, I believe, do not entirelyunderstand the level of protection and the
bubble, if you wish, that they live in.
And should they succeed in this?
Endeavor and actuallybecome more independent.
, I imagine they will besomehow more independent.
(09:22):
I'm hoping that there will be someagreement to maintain their loyalty within
a . A higher empire here, but shouldthey succeed in going out on their own,
they're going to find out that it's a verynasty and very difficult world out there.
And right now they, theyhave all of the benefits.
Of being English subjects, Britishsubjects, and they're paying
(09:45):
very low taxes compared even totheir compatriots in England.
And they're going to find that it's a verydifferent world out there when you don't
have somebody at hand like the Britishnation to assist you and to protect you.
So the Americans are justentitled children, basically.
In many ways yes, as I said, I love manyof them, but boy they do seem to, they do
(10:07):
seem to have taken the idea of entitlementand some sort of destiny to their heads.
Made it a creed.
Are you when you talk about John Hancock,, are you implying that , this may have
just been a business decision for him andwhere he is making, let's say X amount
(10:28):
of money that his ability to trade freelythroughout the entire world instead of.
Within the confines of the rules ofthe British government, that maybe
whatever he's making, he might beable to do 10 or 20 times that.
Is
that what you're saying?
yeah, I suspect you are correct.
Yes.
Of course, I am not a mind reader.
I do not know his innermost thoughts.
(10:48):
But I believe that is at theheart of this entire affair.
I believe that the the slogans that youhear that taxation without representation
and all of that, those are very niceslogans, but people go to war as
they have here over blood, money,land, children, progeny, the future.
(11:10):
And I am hopeful that there will be someenlightenment on both sides, both in
parliament In the mind of the king and hisministers, but also very much so in the
minds of the people and I believe there isa silent majority in America that wishes
this dreadful situation to be resolved.
(11:33):
Peacefully and soon, I'm hoping thatthey are able to come to the fore,
and that cooler heads will prevail.
I do not know that, but I wish for it.
Well, cooler heads is notthe American strong point.
I can tell you that
I have noticed.
You know, I'm going to move pastJohn Hancock in a minute here, but I
gotta be honest with you, your viewon that really makes a lot of sense.
(11:56):
Because somebody that is that good atdoing one thing, which is basically
networking with the people of thatarea and turning those relationships
into dollars and coordinating allthe agreements that are required
to make a successful business.
It really does make more sense in away that the liberty that he would be
(12:17):
looking for isn't necessarily freedomfor the people . But a liberty to do more
business because that's what he's good at.
Yes, and if something can befigured out, that would be wonderful.
Remember, liberty and freedomare not exactly the same thing.
They are often used in the same sentence.
(12:37):
Freedom is freedom todo what you wish to do.
But liberty allows you to operatefreely, but within a framework.
And it is a concept the Britishconcept of liberty is deep.
And abiding and strong in the Englishpeople . It is our great pride,
(12:59):
the great pride of our nation.
And , it should not be misused,
Okay.
So you mentioned earlier,George Washington.
Is he one of the rabble rousersis what can you tell me about him?
Well, he has become one, it seems.
He is a wealthy landowner , fromthe colony of Virginia.
(13:20):
Member of the House of Burgessesthere, perhaps I think.
He has long wanted I understand, toexpand his holdings into the Ohio Valley.
And of course, that is an area thatParliament, in its either wisdom or
not, but has decided to restrict thatthe , provincials could not move west
(13:42):
of the mountains there, and you couldgo there, but you could not own the
land legally and, I know that he is aa proponent of wishing to move out over
the mountains and able to to expand.
In many of the same ways one cansee him perhaps as a parallel to Mr.
(14:04):
Hancock.
He sees himself as being restrictedfrom the very thing that he wants.
And that he can see andtaste, but he cannot have.
And so, I think that in their minds,these Americans, and I, there's
a piece of me that sympathizes.
They wrap all of this up in their concept,their newfound concept of liberty.
(14:28):
And their own freedoms.
They see, and they chafe.
At the restrictions, what they considerto be restrictions of operating within
this British system of trade and lawand responsibility perhaps these
Americans were for too long allowedto conduct business on their own
(14:53):
without a great deal of interferencefrom the government in London.
And they've become very used to that.
And now the technology andcommerce and monetary systems
and all of these are modernizing.
They seem now to want to simplygo back to being left alone.
That's simply not the way of theworld and it's not going to happen.
(15:16):
So Mr.
Washington, I think is , perhapsa Virginia equivalent of Mr.
Hancock.
, his wealth.
Has given him a taste for more andmore, and he conflates this with
his newfound concepts of liberty.
George Washington fought?
In several English wars, didn't he?
(15:37):
Oh, very much so.
Well, he particularly fought as amilitia officer in the recent French war.
And about 20 years ago or so it was infact, it was an expedition of his out into
the vicinity of Fort Duquesne, out nearthe close to the Ohio River that created
(16:02):
the conflagration in America in the firstplace and in the French War, when he
basically got himself captured and signeda paper apparently he does not read French
and so signed a paper that basicallyblamed him for the entire affair.
But also for the death ofseveral French officers.
(16:23):
And yes he was there.
He was, in fact released,but then actually came and
he and I were both captured.
On the expedition with GeneralBraddock again, out to Fort Duquesne
and in that area that ended in thatmassacre along the Mauna Kehila River.
He and I fought side by side virtuallyin that battle commanding what remnants
(16:49):
of the army and the militia that wecould find as we extricated ourselves.
From the debacle.
So he is no doubt a brave officer.
I have no doubts about that.
And he is probably acapable leader of men.
I just wish that he would devote thesetalents to more peaceful endeavors.
(17:12):
So he's not a coward, he'snot a dishonorable man.
It's just your desires for thefuture, they just don't align.
that's correct.
I do hope for a day where I mightsit down with the man with a glass.
Might not happen very soon.
Unfortunately I'm afraid that if thiswar continues this civil unrest and
this militarization of this conflictcontinues that he will go further
(17:38):
and further down the road of Ofrebellion and sedition and revolution.
How is all of this affecting England?
So, you're in England now.
Is this just a like a piece ofdust that they can just flick off?
Or is this a Oh, this is a big thing in
this is right now.
No, . So there are many in England, thereare many in parliament who look to the
(18:02):
Americans as the that they have the fireof liberty and that they are showing
the rest of us how it's really done.
They may not agree with the militarychoices and the actual rebellion
against authority, but there is greatadmiration for this concept of liberty.
(18:24):
Sort of in a state of nature theseAmericans have discovered something new.
I don't particularly agree with thatbut there is great sympathy and that the
Continental Congress actually has friendsin Parliament who speak in its favor.
And speak against our militaryresponses to this rebellion.
(18:49):
They may someday, they may get theirway, but at present, the majority in
Parliament is the King's party, theTories, the Conservatives, and they
are determined to carry on, to meetmilitary force with military force.
And and carry on appropriatelythere, but this has caused great
(19:09):
strife in the newspapers, in thebroadsides, in debates in Parliament,
and even in fights in the streets.
What was the firstspark of the revolution?
Was it the Stamp Act?
Was it something before that?
Oh that was early, yes, I would sayStamp Act, and there were several
(19:30):
other acts at the same time of course,in many regards, it was suddenly,
the sudden absence of the French.
And the driving back of theirnative allies from the frontiers
of the various colonial provinces.
So I wouldn't call that necessarilya spark, but , that was the requisite
(19:55):
condition that suddenly all of thesecolonies and remember, there are
actually 26 colonies in America, only13 of them have chosen this road of
rebellion but the sudden absence of theFrench armies and the French Navy from
(20:16):
threatening these colonies has allowedthem, ironically, to think more freely
about their relationship to the world.
With the mother country whereas priorto that, they were highly dependent upon
us for protection, for military prowess,for for all of the things as well as
(20:37):
commerce and such now that the French arenot there, they think, oh, we are free
and easy , we can now just act upon Anythought that we have entirely on our own.
I go back to your analogy of childrenin the playground and suddenly the
big bad wolf has been taken away.
, the spark here was that circumstanceand then the very necessary raising
(21:04):
of taxes in America and in order toalign them much more closely to the
taxation structure in the United Kingdom.
Okay, I think I've got all the pieces now.
This is interesting because I'venever quite put this together
. But now I think I can see it.
So tell me if I'm characterizing theevents as you see them happening.
So you've got the 13colonies that rebelled.
(21:26):
You say there's 26.
And before I say this,what are the others?
Oh, they are, for example,the various sugar islands
The Caribbean islands, the EastFlorida the Canadian provinces of upper
and lower Canada, which are largelypeopled by the Quebecois French.
(21:46):
And there is Bermuda,there are several others.
So there are a number of other ones,both in the Caribbean, as well as
north of the border of Massachusetts.
Their makeup is different.
The ones in Canada are largely French.
The the islands are largely British.
People buy the various slaveholdingterritories and the the estates
(22:09):
that grow the sugar cane and such.
And so the 13 colonies, think of themin the middle, are rather unique.
They are people largely fromthe British Isles and they have
brought with them all of the.
Concepts of liberty that havegrown up in the British Isles.
(22:31):
Okay.
So now let me characterizewhat I'm seeing.
Is this how you see things going down?
So what happened is , would you say the13 colonies are all part of England.
They're all British citizens.
And from the West, And from the Northand may, I don't know, maybe even
from the South somewhat, they'vegot an Indian presence and a French
(22:52):
presence constantly pushing on them.
, , the British are basically providing border patrol and sending in troops
and protecting them from the Frenchand the Indians on all sides.
So, At that time, the French andIndian wars, or the Seven Years War,
basically some of those militias thatyou were talking about were recruited
(23:13):
to fight with English soldiers fromthe mainland to fight those wars.
And then once, as you're saying,the , big, bad wolf, which that was
contained, now it's no longer there.
Now it's no longer a problem.
Well, there's all this money and treasurethat has been spent to protect them.
And then right at that moment, TheEnglish say, look, we're going to
(23:34):
have to raise your taxes a little bitbecause, , we did all that work for you.
And then the Americans say, no, thanks.
We're good.
We'll take it from here.
You have put a rathersuccinct wrap on it all.
Yes.
I would say that you've summarizedrather succinctly exactly what's going
on, and I would simply add that theyare doing this under the veneer of
(23:56):
liberty and the rights of Englishmen
could argue that is theft.
Oh, very much so.
Yes.
Yes, very much so, and his majesty agreesI have corresponded with his majesty
on this subject and my position, andhe is very much in agreement, as are
his ministers, Dartmouth Barrington,and others in the war office this is
(24:20):
High political theft, if you wish.
Okay.
So let's take it to the next level.
So now let's say this, let'ssay that the Americans, they had
adopted this proper way that theEnglish are, , this very civil way.
And they didn't even think about.
Revolution, because that would be uncivil.
And instead they got a coupleof their smartest people.
(24:42):
And let's say that those peoplewere George Washington and John
Hancock and some other guy.
Okay.
And they came over to meet with the King.
And they said, here's the thing, gosh,we really appreciate what you've done.
Thank you for that.
But you know, it's just nevergoing to work with you way
over there and us over here.
It's just not going towork with our people.
(25:02):
So here's what we want to do.
Okay.
You guys have spent a lot of money.
We're thankful for that.
We're gonna pay you back orwe're gonna make a payment.
So for the next 20 years, , we're gonnamake a payment of X dollars and we're
going to buy our liberty or our freedom.
could a negotiationlike that have happened?
I do believe it is possible.
(25:23):
It would have taken, I think somemore elegant minds that were actually
at hand in, in the moment, butthe concept , of equal partners
under the umbrella of the monarchy.
I believe is one that would have beenvery acceptable to the Americans and
(25:46):
would have provided them the levelof independence that they sought.
Now, it may not have been perfectand we may still have come to
blows, but I do believe thatthere are still many Americans.
Who looked to his majesty forprotection of their liberties.
They consider his majesty to bethe great protector of British
(26:12):
liberties against the ingresses of.
For example, a parliament an invasiveand an aggressive parliament.
And at the moment, his majesty issurrounded by gentlemen who feel
that Parliament should be absolutelysupreme and should be able to carry
(26:35):
out its acts and laws throughoutthe domains of British rule.
And that there should be nogreat limits upon those things.
And, , they may still happenthere, there have been petitions.
I am aware of petitionsbeing passed back and forth.
Cooler heads may still prevail here.
I know that the the Howe brothers havebeen given plenipotentiary powers.
(26:58):
To settle this matter.
They're wearing two hats.
They are peace agents, aswell as military officers.
So we shall see how that works.
But I do believe there were, andperhaps remain opportunities , , to
find a compromise.
I believe personally under theguise or under the umbrella of his
(27:21):
majesty guaranteeing the politicalindependence of these various entities
while all pledging an allegiance.
To the common good and the symbolof that being the monarchy.
I think there's a chance of that,but it may or may not happen.
One of the things about peoplein my experience is that people
(27:44):
generally tell you who they are.
, they say a cheetahdoesn't change its spots.
If somebody tells you whothey are, believe them.
I think at this pointwe've well established.
That the Americans are going tomove forward on this and they have
the right people to get the wordout, , to keep people fired up and
fighting, and they probably have enoughintelligence and leadership to do that.
(28:06):
Is this not the time to stopbeing proper and stop being civil
and to take the gloves off andstart raising some villages?
it may be, I think that we are stillin a moment when we are attempting
to bring hearts and minds over.
And I know that of course I must leavesome of these matters to my successors.
(28:30):
In General Howe and I know that GeneralHowe plans to offer general and specific
amnesties to all who will come backacross and , pledge fealty and and,
call that bending the knee now.
Ah, I believe one can bothbe proud and make a decision,
(28:51):
Okay, that's fair.
but yes perhaps I think it in the eyesof many of these Americans, perhaps
bending the knee, yes, you're correct.
Again, I would return to one of two paths.
One must either acquiesce and finda political compromise that ends
this matter, or one must raise.
(29:14):
An army such as one has never seenbefore and a Navy that simply
arrives with overwhelming force.
And I know that his majesty is alreadyseeking and is he is preparing speeches
and to the combined houses of parliamentin which he will be proposing that
(29:35):
we import both recruits as well as.
regiments from several of the Germanprincipalities and expand the army
and the navy to a level that is trulycapable of this intercontinental warfare,
which is relatively new to us all.
We saw some of it in the recent Frenchwar but here we are doing it again.
(30:01):
And I believe that his majesty may verywell be on the path of Going down the
military road without limit and with asmuch overwhelming force as he can muster.
I wish him well in either endeavor,should he choose peace or war.
, speaking of war, , I'd like to hearyour views on Lexington and Concord.
(30:24):
Because it seems like, the directionthat went, it spiraled out of control,
and that wasn't your original plan forthat to turn out the way that it did.
Could you just give me yourperception of what happened there?
Ah, yes.
Well, first of all it is clear thatwhile making protestations of love and
(30:45):
loyalty to the mother country and evento me as governor these Yankees and
again, ill designing men were all thewhile preparing for war and they had
been doing so for a number of months.
One must remember that these arenot simply farmers who pick up
(31:05):
grandpa's gun from the mantle and run.
into the fields.
They are themselves an army,and Massachusetts alone was
capable of putting thousands ofmen well armed into the field.
One of my officers, after the factdescribed them in the following, he
said anyone who sees, I believe itwas Earl Percy, Anyone who sees them
(31:28):
as an irregular mob is much mistaken.
They have men amongst them whoknow very well what they are about.
So this was a concerted effortto arm their own men, the
populace, and the countryside.
, upon instructions from London, myintent was to pull the fangs from
(31:49):
this snake, this monster, beforeit could rear its ugly head.
Unfortunately, I believethat we were simply too late.
We had made efforts to Seized powderin previous September in Charlestown
and elsewhere and increasingly thecountryside was armed well beyond
(32:10):
our ability to properly deal with.
So what we resorted to was secrecyand a lightning raid out to conquer,
to seize and destroy the city.
Unfortunately, as we have discussedearlier, word of this effort got out.
Most of the material had beenmoved by the time Colonel Smith
(32:30):
and his expedition got to Concord.
And due to an unfortunate incident onthe way in a little town called Lexington
And also because of the riders, thecountryside was alarmed and began to close
in on the soldiers in a most outrageousmanner, with little provocation, they
(32:51):
began to shoot And to pepper the columnwith gunfire all the way back as they
attempted to retreat from Concord.
There was also an incident at a smallbridge where the militia literally
attacked the companies that were there.
This is civil war.
They are attacking their own soldiers.
(33:13):
And there's no excuse for that.
And then they behaved in most outrageousmanner firing against our people all the
way back until they were rescued by a aparty under the Brigadier Earl Percy and
then further fighting to return to Bostonwhere they found themselves besieged.
(33:34):
I do believe this wasall a pre concerted plan.
And then in fact, in hindsight, I realizethat the arms and ammunition that were
held in the town of Concord were not.
Put farther away and not further into Boston, but it exactly the correct
(33:55):
distance that it would take approximatelyone day to march out and seize and return
and that was in fact a giant trap and Thatthe the Yankees intended in every way , to
attack the King's soldiers and to bringon this war, they needed only the excuse.
(34:17):
And in hindsight, I'mafraid we gave it to them.
, you believe that whole setup was atrap, , and , everything went down
exactly as they were planning it.
Very much so, at least assome of them were planning.
I'm sure not all of them, becauseYankees don't agree with each other.
Right?
Or anybody.
But certainly when you look atthe Samuel Adams's, the Committee
(34:39):
of Safety, as they called it,And there are various regimental
commanders like Barrett and others.
Yes I suspect that they may have beenmomentarily surprised by the effort
made by His Majesty's soldiers, butit was in fact the very day that
they had all been preparing for.
How do you like that name?
(35:00):
The committee of safety.
There's a nice piece of marketing in that.
It is indeed, yes,
Whose safety it's all inthe eye of the beholder,
I always thought thatname was really good.
. That's very helpful by the way.
It makes a lot of sensewhat you're saying.
Now , let me see your impression ofthe Boston tea party now, or I'm sorry,
the destruction of the tea, because
(35:21):
that is a catchy name, it might catch on,
It's all marketing in America.
So what is your impression of that?
Cause the Americans, , they seethat, , they were being treated
very fairly at the Sol T situation.
And they're like, that'sit enough already.
Well, I think that it's plain thatthis was an attempt to stick from
their perspective, the Americans.
(35:43):
It was the, or the Bostonians,I should say, specifically.
It was their opportunity to stick apoke in the eye to what they considered
to be the high and the mighty.
In fact, it was an opportunityfor the East India Company.
To sell a tea and get itself out of afinancial bind and a situation but it
(36:03):
was also an opportunity to undercut uh,and sell below market and you have to
remember that much of the tea and muchof the commerce is being run by people
like, and here he is again, John Hancock.
So Hancock.
Whips up the crowd withprobably Sam Adams is help.
(36:25):
And they plot in the night tothrow this tea into the Harbor.
It is criminal activity.
It is destruction of privateproperty and they do it.
Because it is, in fact, so outrageous,things had been settling down in Boston.
We actually had reached a pointwhere nothing terrible had happened
(36:45):
for even the better part of a year.
There were small fights in thestreets, things of that nature.
But the soldiers had been withdrawn.
They were out at Castle William.
The the streets were relativelypeaceful and Boston was
getting on with its business.
I believe that the the radicals, therevolutionaries here were sensing
(37:08):
that they needed a bold step orthe whole thing would be gone,
was going to slip away from them.
So they needed something.
That was going to both outragethe authorities, which it did, and
radicalize their own base, which it did.
And so, when in doubt, sometimes you dothe outrageous and then you play the
(37:32):
victim when retribution comes your way.
This then prompted the coerciveacts by parliament, very
proper, to close the port.
And to redress the insane method ofgovernment at the time in Massachusetts
, and to reestablish the rule of law inthe province the critical thing here
(37:54):
is that, I do believe that this wasan act of outrage that was intended
deliberately, it was , the mostoutrageous thing they could do at the
time, in the moment to reinvigoratetheir seditious and rebellious plans.
It's this coordinated effort tojust keep throwing logs on the fire.
(38:16):
Just to keep it burninguntil everybody caught up.
Exactly and then when the fire burnsdown you come by with some pitch Or
more wood, or something to cause theflames to leap back up into the sky.
Throw a little tea in there.
That would do it.
Yes.
So what about Bunker Hill?
(38:37):
It seems like this is a big changing,
In directions of your future prospects.
Well, yes the threegenerals were sent over.
Clinton, Burgoyne, and Howe.
And on the ship Cerberus.
In fact, someone wrote a ditty about that.
Noting that Cerberus is the three-headeddog , ending the poem with Bow Wow.
(38:58):
Wow.
Rhyming with how so, the threegenerals arrived and the matter was
that the town of Boston was besieged.
It was the Army's intentand job to break that siege.
And we had plans to attackthe Dorchester Peninsula.
On the south side of the town of Bostonbut the Yankees caught wind again of these
(39:21):
plans and established a small fort onthe top of Breed's Hill, which overlooks
the harbor on the north side by the theestuary of this, of the Charles River.
We flipped the plan and attacked theCharlestown Peninsula and were successful.
in driving the Yankees off the hill butas I have said earlier, , they are well
(39:45):
armed and several of our tactics failed.
One was to envelop, attempt toenvelop the fort, the small fort
with a flanking attack up theMystic River along the beach.
But there were Yankee.
Companies that preventedthat from happening.
And the day was taken and the day wasdecided only through the valiant efforts
(40:10):
of the soldiers and horrific casualtiesin overwhelming , the militia on the Hill.
The initial feeling was that we hadwon a great victory, but realizing
that we had left large parts.
Of our number on the field and thatin fact, the army was largely crippled
(40:33):
after that simply caring for thewounded and Boston the siege was
redoubled and Boston became a rathermiserable besieged town dependent upon
supplies delivered by the Royal Navy.
It was quite the sightto see from the rooftops.
In Boston, with the entire town ofCharlestown in flames, the ships in the
(40:58):
harbor firing their guns at elevationto hit the top of the hill, and the
line of soldiers clad in, in their redcoats moving up and down the hill, and
eventually overwhelming and driving.
All the way back to the land, thelink with the rest of Charlestown
(41:19):
a devastating battle and one whichperhaps could have done better.
I feel that if, , Admiral graves, whowas our naval commander had sounded
the mystic river more properly, hecould have sent one of his ships
up there and it would have been.
Quick work to deal with theseYankee divisions that were up there
.So, a Pyrrhic victory as they say, and one which I think has had a
(41:44):
deleterious effect upon hopes for apeaceful resolution of this conflict.
We now find ourselves.
In real warfare, I think up untilthat point, there was a chance.
That if we had, if the army hadbeen able to prevail much more
easily, it may have taken the sailsout of the wind of this revolt.
(42:08):
Unfortunately, the casualties thatwere taken and the death toll that
was inflicted on, upon our armies hasgiven hope and wind to this rebellion.
And I now feel that the future is,has a much more difficult path.
Yeah.
It's hard to imagine shaking hands andworking things out after the number of
(42:29):
casualties that happened in that battle.
It was savage.
, what do you what would you have to sayabout the way that the Americans fight
because Do the British you still line upin straight lines and shoot at each other?
Don't you and the Americans don't do that.
Is that correct?
I would disagree.
I believe that the tactics that thearmy uses and that the militia uses are
(42:52):
more similar than they are different.
We have for example, ourlight infantry, who are well
trained in the use of terrain.
And in what is known as Petite Guerre,the small war flanking moving around
behind the entire effort at BunkerHill or Breed's Hill in Charlestown
(43:15):
was to fix the Yankees in front of us.
With these battalions of grenadiersand regulars and all the while run
the light infantry up behind themand to envelop the entire army of
militia to basically bag them up.
And unfortunately when that efforton the mystic beach failed the
(43:39):
battle degenerated into the greatfrontal assault that we witnessed.
the Yankees in the field will veryoften use very similar tactics.
They have the same weaponsand they read the same books.
So , yes, there are opportunities andthis happened during the retreat from
(43:59):
Lexington and from Concord, that theywill use the land and they will use the
stonewalls and the trees and the terrain.
But our soldiers aretrained in how to do that.
Also the disadvantage that they had.
On the road from Concord was that wasthe only way back to Boston and at
Bunker Hill, they are . Similarly,they were in the attacking force.
(44:24):
They had to get up and climb that hill.
And so, in doing so, you expose yourself.
There was savage fighting in thetown of Charlestown as it burned.
Street by street and house by house.
So, our soldiers are theequal of any of these Yankees.
Unfortunately, I think we're findingthat they are the equal to ours also.
(44:49):
So what is your situation now?
, obviously we've reached a pointwhere it doesn't look like
we're going to be turning back.
You're in England.
What has happened to your rank ? , haveyou been given the responsibility for
this failure at bunker or breeds Hill?
mutterings of that.
I am no longer the Commanderin Chief in North America.
(45:10):
I remain Governor of the Provinceof Massachusetts Bay, at least in
name and , I have my rank in theArmy and I am now an advisor to
His Majesty and to the Ministers.
However, I will say that there is ascent in the air that Somehow this
(45:31):
was not all handled well, and thereis some bit of scapegoating that I
believe is going on in the back rooms.
But , these are politicalmatters, and some of these
people, they do what they must do.
I will not concern myself,I've given it my best, and we
sought peace at every turn.
(45:52):
But again some of my advice was notfollowed as I have said earlier,
either acquiesce or overwhelm.
And the ministers and manyothers chose a middle path.
Which has ended us where we are now.
So yes, I will take my responsibilityfor those parts of this, that I had
a part in and that I was responsiblefor, and I wish his majesty all the
(46:16):
best and the army all of the best.
And I hope for victory in ourforce of arms, but , I suspect
that I will be given some sortof , as they call it, a desk job.
now that you are away from the battlefieldand, , you're not on the front lines,
. Do you still have empathy or sympathyor some understanding of their cause?
(46:38):
Or are you just completely fed up?
And if you never see a Yankeeagain, it'll be too soon.
I would tend towards the latter.
I think I've had a belly full.
Do recall as I took ship,I said some unkind words.
About the town of Boston andwishing that it simply been burned.
(46:59):
You must remember that I had anexcellent career in the army until I
became the governor of Massachusetts.
And I could sit here and complain andsay that I was given an impossible job.
But as a military officer, youtake on very often impossible jobs.
very much.
And this was simply another one.
(47:19):
I, I did my very best.
The situation was already rather out ofhand by the time I arrived on the scene.
And I did what I could.
And so, it is now up to others.
General Gage, it is so enlighteningthat get this perspective from
your side of these events.
And I thank you for all this time.
(47:40):
It is.
I've really enjoyed this conversation.
I guess there's one lastquestion that I'd like to ask.
And then if there's anything you'd liketo share, I'd certainly like to hear it.
that last question is, is thereone mistake that haunts you?
answer would be two possible points.
The first would have been to send amore overwhelming force out to Concord.
(48:03):
We eventually sent 2, 000 men.
It might have been very different had Isimply sent them all out at the same time.
But in fact, we only sent the Grenadiersand Light Infantry on the initial
effort, and then reinforced them later.
The second was later.
In that same event, when we withdrew oursoldiers from the Charlestown peninsula,
(48:30):
because that is where they retreated toat the end of that day of April 19th.
Unfortunately, there were concernsand fears that the town of Boston
itself would rise up beneath us.
That his people would engagein fights in the street.
So we pulled everyone back into thetown, only to have to take Charlestown
(48:54):
back again two months later.
I see.
If we had simply stayed out there,we would have been more secure.
If we had managed to occupy , thatpeninsula, then that battle in
June may have never been necessary.
You wouldn't have had to fight it twice.
Exactly.
(49:14):
Yeah.
Gosh, that's interesting.
Well, we're all brilliant with hindsight.
Absolutely.
Heh.
Sir, again, thank you.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
I think simply that I amhopeful that someday America
and Britain will be friends.
That is my heartfelt wish,and someday it may happen.
(49:36):
I can tell you that does happen,but we have a couple, couple
tough years between now and then.
I'm gratified to hear it.
Thank you again for your time,
thank you very much, and it's been apleasure speaking with you this day.
When the British occupied Boston, theAmericans fighting for independence,
treated them like they were invaders.
Coming to take their guns andtrying to steal their Liberty.
(49:56):
But the reality is that the Americancolonies were part of the British
empire and both sides thoughtthey were fighting for what was
theirs prior to this conversation.
I'd really never heard the other sideof this argument as general gauge
referred to this as a civil war.
Which is probably the mostaccurate description of what was
happening until the declarationof independence was signed.
(50:19):
This was the English fighting the English.
If the south had won the American civilwar, there would have been two countries.
Which more or less is exactlywhat happened when the
Americans beat the British.
You could argue that for theUnited States to exist as it
does right now, the Americans hadto somehow win two civil wars.
One to break a nation apart andone to hold a nation together.
(50:44):
And if Thomas gauges request for enough,troops had not been ignored, we'd all be
reading history books, telling the storyof the brave general gage that squashed
that rebel George Washington, like a bug.
Thanks for listening.
And don't forget that when you tell afriend about the calling history podcast.
Uh, pirate somewhere decidesit's time to get a library card.
(51:06):
I'm Tony Dean.
And until next time I'm history.
Welcome back to part two of Thomas gage.
In the last episode we discussedthe American colonists.
Selective approach to followinglaws, despite their apparent
belief that they were all lawyers.
We also delved into how the Adamsboys together with John Hancock.
Fueled the flames of rebellion untilanarchy and mob rule took hold.
(00:51):
In this episode, general gaugewill share his perspective on the
similarities between George Washingtonand John Hancock, . Particularly
regarding their true intentions.
He will also reflect on his own misstepsactions that had they been different,
might have ended the war quickly andprevented the United States of America
from ever coming into existence.
(01:12):
Dr.
Church, Dr.
Benjamin Church.
If you were, this is a man who has thaton both sides, there are strong feelings,
I believe, because on your side of thefence, this man is a Patriot that gave you
information about what was going on Andfrom the colonists side, from the American
side, he is going to be seen as a traitorthat deserve nothing less than death.
(01:37):
Are you the one that turned him?
oh no.
He was he simply, he was a, and is today,a gentleman who simply felt as I do, that
these radicals , were taking this too far.
He is a I would say he is a patriot forMassachusetts, as were many others such as
(01:59):
again, my predecessor governor Hutchinson,, argued for the repeal of many of the
more onerous acts of parliament, which Iagree, many of them were not pleasant and
some of them were ill thought through.
But when the bricks begin flying, whenthe houses are burned down, when the
(02:19):
mob takes to the street, when Soldiersare set upon as they walk the streets,
these are unacceptable developments.
And , I believe it was in that period oftime that he began to realize that what
had begun as a struggle for, I wouldcall them colonial rights, if you wish
(02:41):
had become a criminal activity, indeed.
And it is then he began to totell us and provide small hints.
About about where these where thesearms, for example, were being stored.
Again, one must remember, here we havewe have conspiratorial behavior where
(03:01):
there are arms, ammunition and suppliesin support of an army being stored
for the avowed purpose of rebellion.
Again, watch government.
What government anywhere would toleratethat anywhere on the earth in any
Yeah.
Concerning Ben Church, he wasactually going to meetings.
(03:25):
with the Sons of Liberty,
Yes, very much.
So
and then turning thatinformation over to you.
Was he paid for that?
he was Rewarded but not greatly It wasmostly for his expenses he did this out
of a patriotic sense and we helped him forhe had expenses associated with these
(03:49):
activities, but it was not like a bounty.
No, he did this , I think out of thepatriotic motivations of his own heart.
And his horror at the at theincreasingly radical and violent.
And a seditious turn that this thatthis political movement, if I can
(04:10):
call it that had actually taken.
When you say radical and violent, youhad mentioned tarring and feathering
at one point, you said burninghouses, you're talking about violence
in the streets, of course you'dmentioned the destruction of the T.
Can you give me some specificexamples besides the big ones,
the destruction of the T, ofsomething that happened to someone?
(04:33):
Like, do you know someone whowas actually tar and feathered?
Oh, yes, there was a, I do not recall theexact name, but there was a tax collector.
It was one of thecustoms agents in Boston.
They refer to him as a tax collector,but it was, these were duties paid
upon landing of cargo in Boston whichis what pays for the port, for the
(04:57):
the facilities and the protection.
I mean, there are piratesout there and the Royal Navy.
Protects our commerce.
This has to be paid for so, one of our,or duty collectors was hauled out of his
house one night his clothes ripped off.
And he was doused in hot tar,and then covered in feathers.
(05:19):
And I will tell you that is somethingthat sometimes can be fatal.
In his case, it was not.
But it this was a mob directedby and peopled by the very Sons of
Liberty that you had spoken of earlier.
Therefore, Samuel Adams and hisilk were behind it, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, I was speaking withJohn Hancock a while back ago.
(05:41):
And while speaking with John Hancock Iguess I wasn't sure that he was involved
in the destruction of the T, whichyou clearly are already aware of that.
And he said, absolutely.
He was absolutely a hundredpercent involved in that.
And.
When I think of John Hancock,I think, why in the world is he
getting involved with all of this?
(06:03):
I mean, this man has everything.
He has a reputation.
He's loved by the people.
He has everything.
He has respect and money and everything.
Yes,
in the world is hegetting involved in this?
One of the things you had said earlier,you had said that, you know, you
think maybe these people might bedoing this for riches and for money.
(06:24):
But he has all of that, and that leadsme to believe that maybe the taxes
and the restrictions that the crownis putting on people like him are so
egregious that even somebody like him, he had to stand up and risk everything
because the taxes were too high.
I wish it were that simple.
Of course, to get a truthful answer, youmight have to just ask him but I will
(06:46):
opine this far I believe that indeed theissues of the taxes and all is a cover,
it's a sham yes, it's it's an issue Ofsome amount of money, but certainly, as
I think you have pointed out, somethinghe would be completely capable of, my
(07:07):
sense is that his issue and that ofother merchants and mercantiles and
mechanics and such in Boston and inByron's has to do with their future or
their perceptions of their own future.
They see opportunity to tradeoutside of the British system
(07:29):
directly with other parts of Europe.
for that.
They are prohibited from doing soand from purchasing, for example,
tea on that subject from the DutchEast India Company or other entities
in Europe that also have tea.
But if the entire purpose,and this is returning to the
(07:51):
entire concept of the colonies.
Is to operate within the Britishsystem and not be independent and
that there is plenty of wealthto be made inside of that system.
But if it is to survive and ifthe wealth is to stay within and
aggrandize up into the Britishsystem, we must control this trade.
(08:14):
We must control the taxationwithin it and we must control.
where the materials are, wherethey're sold regulate the commerce.
Otherwise, yes, it is a free for all.
And I believe that'sreally what they want.
They want to be able to simply take theirships and go anywhere on the planet.
The difficulty with that is simplythat his majesty the monies that are
(08:39):
required to support the army, theNavy, the government, the regulations.
The protection are not collectedand we would then end up with a Navy
that was insufficient to protectour own commerce on the high seas.
And again, that would lead tomany of these European nations
(09:00):
thinking that they could thenhorn in and grab what they wanted.
, the Americans, I believe, do not entirelyunderstand the level of protection and the
bubble, if you wish, that they live in.
And should they succeed in this?
Endeavor and actuallybecome more independent.
, I imagine they will besomehow more independent.
(09:22):
I'm hoping that there will be someagreement to maintain their loyalty within
a . A higher empire here, but shouldthey succeed in going out on their own,
they're going to find out that it's a verynasty and very difficult world out there.
And right now they, theyhave all of the benefits.
Of being English subjects, Britishsubjects, and they're paying
(09:45):
very low taxes compared even totheir compatriots in England.
And they're going to find that it's a verydifferent world out there when you don't
have somebody at hand like the Britishnation to assist you and to protect you.
So the Americans are justentitled children, basically.
In many ways yes, as I said, I love manyof them, but boy they do seem to, they do
(10:07):
seem to have taken the idea of entitlementand some sort of destiny to their heads.
Made it a creed.
Are you when you talk about John Hancock,, are you implying that , this may have
just been a business decision for him andwhere he is making, let's say X amount
(10:28):
of money that his ability to trade freelythroughout the entire world instead of.
Within the confines of the rules ofthe British government, that maybe
whatever he's making, he might beable to do 10 or 20 times that.
Is
that what you're saying?
yeah, I suspect you are correct.
Yes.
Of course, I am not a mind reader.
I do not know his innermost thoughts.
(10:48):
But I believe that is at theheart of this entire affair.
I believe that the the slogans that youhear that taxation without representation
and all of that, those are very niceslogans, but people go to war as
they have here over blood, money,land, children, progeny, the future.
(11:10):
And I am hopeful that there will be someenlightenment on both sides, both in
parliament In the mind of the king and hisministers, but also very much so in the
minds of the people and I believe there isa silent majority in America that wishes
this dreadful situation to be resolved.
(11:33):
Peacefully and soon, I'm hoping thatthey are able to come to the fore,
and that cooler heads will prevail.
I do not know that, but I wish for it.
Well, cooler heads is notthe American strong point.
I can tell you that
I have noticed.
You know, I'm going to move pastJohn Hancock in a minute here, but I
gotta be honest with you, your viewon that really makes a lot of sense.
(11:56):
Because somebody that is that good atdoing one thing, which is basically
networking with the people of thatarea and turning those relationships
into dollars and coordinating allthe agreements that are required
to make a successful business.
It really does make more sense in away that the liberty that he would be
(12:17):
looking for isn't necessarily freedomfor the people . But a liberty to do more
business because that's what he's good at.
Yes, and if something can befigured out, that would be wonderful.
Remember, liberty and freedomare not exactly the same thing.
They are often used in the same sentence.
(12:37):
Freedom is freedom todo what you wish to do.
But liberty allows you to operatefreely, but within a framework.
And it is a concept the Britishconcept of liberty is deep.
And abiding and strong in the Englishpeople . It is our great pride,
(12:59):
the great pride of our nation.
And , it should not be misused,
Okay.
So you mentioned earlier,George Washington.
Is he one of the rabble rousersis what can you tell me about him?
Well, he has become one, it seems.
He is a wealthy landowner , fromthe colony of Virginia.
(13:20):
Member of the House of Burgessesthere, perhaps I think.
He has long wanted I understand, toexpand his holdings into the Ohio Valley.
And of course, that is an area thatParliament, in its either wisdom or
not, but has decided to restrict thatthe , provincials could not move west
(13:42):
of the mountains there, and you couldgo there, but you could not own the
land legally and, I know that he is aa proponent of wishing to move out over
the mountains and able to to expand.
In many of the same ways one cansee him perhaps as a parallel to Mr.
(14:04):
Hancock.
He sees himself as being restrictedfrom the very thing that he wants.
And that he can see andtaste, but he cannot have.
And so, I think that in their minds,these Americans, and I, there's
a piece of me that sympathizes.
They wrap all of this up in their concept,their newfound concept of liberty.
(14:28):
And their own freedoms.
They see, and they chafe.
At the restrictions, what they considerto be restrictions of operating within
this British system of trade and lawand responsibility perhaps these
Americans were for too long allowedto conduct business on their own
(14:53):
without a great deal of interferencefrom the government in London.
And they've become very used to that.
And now the technology andcommerce and monetary systems
and all of these are modernizing.
They seem now to want to simplygo back to being left alone.
That's simply not the way of theworld and it's not going to happen.
(15:16):
So Mr.
Washington, I think is , perhapsa Virginia equivalent of Mr.
Hancock.
, his wealth.
Has given him a taste for more andmore, and he conflates this with
his newfound concepts of liberty.
George Washington fought?
In several English wars, didn't he?
(15:37):
Oh, very much so.
Well, he particularly fought as amilitia officer in the recent French war.
And about 20 years ago or so it was infact, it was an expedition of his out into
the vicinity of Fort Duquesne, out nearthe close to the Ohio River that created
(16:02):
the conflagration in America in the firstplace and in the French War, when he
basically got himself captured and signeda paper apparently he does not read French
and so signed a paper that basicallyblamed him for the entire affair.
But also for the death ofseveral French officers.
(16:23):
And yes he was there.
He was, in fact released,but then actually came and
he and I were both captured.
On the expedition with GeneralBraddock again, out to Fort Duquesne
and in that area that ended in thatmassacre along the Mauna Kehila River.
He and I fought side by side virtuallyin that battle commanding what remnants
(16:49):
of the army and the militia that wecould find as we extricated ourselves.
From the debacle.
So he is no doubt a brave officer.
I have no doubts about that.
And he is probably acapable leader of men.
I just wish that he would devote thesetalents to more peaceful endeavors.
(17:12):
So he's not a coward, he'snot a dishonorable man.
It's just your desires for thefuture, they just don't align.
that's correct.
I do hope for a day where I mightsit down with the man with a glass.
Might not happen very soon.
Unfortunately I'm afraid that if thiswar continues this civil unrest and
this militarization of this conflictcontinues that he will go further
(17:38):
and further down the road of Ofrebellion and sedition and revolution.
How is all of this affecting England?
So, you're in England now.
Is this just a like a piece ofdust that they can just flick off?
Or is this a Oh, this is a big thing in
this is right now.
No, . So there are many in England, thereare many in parliament who look to the
(18:02):
Americans as the that they have the fireof liberty and that they are showing
the rest of us how it's really done.
They may not agree with the militarychoices and the actual rebellion
against authority, but there is greatadmiration for this concept of liberty.
(18:24):
Sort of in a state of nature theseAmericans have discovered something new.
I don't particularly agree with thatbut there is great sympathy and that the
Continental Congress actually has friendsin Parliament who speak in its favor.
And speak against our militaryresponses to this rebellion.
(18:49):
They may someday, they may get theirway, but at present, the majority in
Parliament is the King's party, theTories, the Conservatives, and they
are determined to carry on, to meetmilitary force with military force.
And and carry on appropriatelythere, but this has caused great
(19:09):
strife in the newspapers, in thebroadsides, in debates in Parliament,
and even in fights in the streets.
What was the firstspark of the revolution?
Was it the Stamp Act?
Was it something before that?
Oh that was early, yes, I would sayStamp Act, and there were several
(19:30):
other acts at the same time of course,in many regards, it was suddenly,
the sudden absence of the French.
And the driving back of theirnative allies from the frontiers
of the various colonial provinces.
So I wouldn't call that necessarilya spark, but , that was the requisite
(19:55):
condition that suddenly all of thesecolonies and remember, there are
actually 26 colonies in America, only13 of them have chosen this road of
rebellion but the sudden absence of theFrench armies and the French Navy from
(20:16):
threatening these colonies has allowedthem, ironically, to think more freely
about their relationship to the world.
With the mother country whereas priorto that, they were highly dependent upon
us for protection, for military prowess,for for all of the things as well as
(20:37):
commerce and such now that the French arenot there, they think, oh, we are free
and easy , we can now just act upon Anythought that we have entirely on our own.
I go back to your analogy of childrenin the playground and suddenly the
big bad wolf has been taken away.
, the spark here was that circumstanceand then the very necessary raising
(21:04):
of taxes in America and in order toalign them much more closely to the
taxation structure in the United Kingdom.
Okay, I think I've got all the pieces now.
This is interesting because I'venever quite put this together
. But now I think I can see it.
So tell me if I'm characterizing theevents as you see them happening.
So you've got the 13colonies that rebelled.
(21:26):
You say there's 26.
And before I say this,what are the others?
Oh, they are, for example,the various sugar islands
The Caribbean islands, the EastFlorida the Canadian provinces of upper
and lower Canada, which are largelypeopled by the Quebecois French.
(21:46):
And there is Bermuda,there are several others.
So there are a number of other ones,both in the Caribbean, as well as
north of the border of Massachusetts.
Their makeup is different.
The ones in Canada are largely French.
The the islands are largely British.
People buy the various slaveholdingterritories and the the estates
(22:09):
that grow the sugar cane and such.
And so the 13 colonies, think of themin the middle, are rather unique.
They are people largely fromthe British Isles and they have
brought with them all of the.
Concepts of liberty that havegrown up in the British Isles.
(22:31):
Okay.
So now let me characterizewhat I'm seeing.
Is this how you see things going down?
So what happened is , would you say the13 colonies are all part of England.
They're all British citizens.
And from the West, And from the Northand may, I don't know, maybe even
from the South somewhat, they'vegot an Indian presence and a French
(22:52):
presence constantly pushing on them.
, , the British are basically providing border patrol and sending in troops
and protecting them from the Frenchand the Indians on all sides.
So, At that time, the French andIndian wars, or the Seven Years War,
basically some of those militias thatyou were talking about were recruited
(23:13):
to fight with English soldiers fromthe mainland to fight those wars.
And then once, as you're saying,the , big, bad wolf, which that was
contained, now it's no longer there.
Now it's no longer a problem.
Well, there's all this money and treasurethat has been spent to protect them.
And then right at that moment, TheEnglish say, look, we're going to
(23:34):
have to raise your taxes a little bitbecause, , we did all that work for you.
And then the Americans say, no, thanks.
We're good.
We'll take it from here.
You have put a rathersuccinct wrap on it all.
Yes.
I would say that you've summarizedrather succinctly exactly what's going
on, and I would simply add that theyare doing this under the veneer of
(23:56):
liberty and the rights of Englishmen
could argue that is theft.
Oh, very much so.
Yes.
Yes, very much so, and his majesty agreesI have corresponded with his majesty
on this subject and my position, andhe is very much in agreement, as are
his ministers, Dartmouth Barrington,and others in the war office this is
(24:20):
High political theft, if you wish.
Okay.
So let's take it to the next level.
So now let's say this, let'ssay that the Americans, they had
adopted this proper way that theEnglish are, , this very civil way.
And they didn't even think about.
Revolution, because that would be uncivil.
And instead they got a coupleof their smartest people.
(24:42):
And let's say that those peoplewere George Washington and John
Hancock and some other guy.
Okay.
And they came over to meet with the King.
And they said, here's the thing, gosh,we really appreciate what you've done.
Thank you for that.
But you know, it's just nevergoing to work with you way
over there and us over here.
It's just not going towork with our people.
(25:02):
So here's what we want to do.
Okay.
You guys have spent a lot of money.
We're thankful for that.
We're gonna pay you back orwe're gonna make a payment.
So for the next 20 years, , we're gonnamake a payment of X dollars and we're
going to buy our liberty or our freedom.
could a negotiationlike that have happened?
I do believe it is possible.
(25:23):
It would have taken, I think somemore elegant minds that were actually
at hand in, in the moment, butthe concept , of equal partners
under the umbrella of the monarchy.
I believe is one that would have beenvery acceptable to the Americans and
(25:46):
would have provided them the levelof independence that they sought.
Now, it may not have been perfectand we may still have come to
blows, but I do believe thatthere are still many Americans.
Who looked to his majesty forprotection of their liberties.
They consider his majesty to bethe great protector of British
(26:12):
liberties against the ingresses of.
For example, a parliament an invasiveand an aggressive parliament.
And at the moment, his majesty issurrounded by gentlemen who feel
that Parliament should be absolutelysupreme and should be able to carry
(26:35):
out its acts and laws throughoutthe domains of British rule.
And that there should be nogreat limits upon those things.
And, , they may still happenthere, there have been petitions.
I am aware of petitionsbeing passed back and forth.
Cooler heads may still prevail here.
I know that the the Howe brothers havebeen given plenipotentiary powers.
(26:58):
To settle this matter.
They're wearing two hats.
They are peace agents, aswell as military officers.
So we shall see how that works.
But I do believe there were, andperhaps remain opportunities , , to
find a compromise.
I believe personally under theguise or under the umbrella of his
(27:21):
majesty guaranteeing the politicalindependence of these various entities
while all pledging an allegiance.
To the common good and the symbolof that being the monarchy.
I think there's a chance of that,but it may or may not happen.
One of the things about peoplein my experience is that people
(27:44):
generally tell you who they are.
, they say a cheetahdoesn't change its spots.
If somebody tells you whothey are, believe them.
I think at this pointwe've well established.
That the Americans are going tomove forward on this and they have
the right people to get the wordout, , to keep people fired up and
fighting, and they probably have enoughintelligence and leadership to do that.
(28:06):
Is this not the time to stopbeing proper and stop being civil
and to take the gloves off andstart raising some villages?
it may be, I think that we are stillin a moment when we are attempting
to bring hearts and minds over.
And I know that of course I must leavesome of these matters to my successors.
(28:30):
In General Howe and I know that GeneralHowe plans to offer general and specific
amnesties to all who will come backacross and , pledge fealty and and,
call that bending the knee now.
Ah, I believe one can bothbe proud and make a decision,
(28:51):
Okay, that's fair.
but yes perhaps I think it in the eyesof many of these Americans, perhaps
bending the knee, yes, you're correct.
Again, I would return to one of two paths.
One must either acquiesce and finda political compromise that ends
this matter, or one must raise.
(29:14):
An army such as one has never seenbefore and a Navy that simply
arrives with overwhelming force.
And I know that his majesty is alreadyseeking and is he is preparing speeches
and to the combined houses of parliamentin which he will be proposing that
(29:35):
we import both recruits as well as.
regiments from several of the Germanprincipalities and expand the army
and the navy to a level that is trulycapable of this intercontinental warfare,
which is relatively new to us all.
We saw some of it in the recent Frenchwar but here we are doing it again.
(30:01):
And I believe that his majesty may verywell be on the path of Going down the
military road without limit and with asmuch overwhelming force as he can muster.
I wish him well in either endeavor,should he choose peace or war.
, speaking of war, , I'd like to hearyour views on Lexington and Concord.
(30:24):
Because it seems like, the directionthat went, it spiraled out of control,
and that wasn't your original plan forthat to turn out the way that it did.
Could you just give me yourperception of what happened there?
Ah, yes.
Well, first of all it is clear thatwhile making protestations of love and
(30:45):
loyalty to the mother country and evento me as governor these Yankees and
again, ill designing men were all thewhile preparing for war and they had
been doing so for a number of months.
One must remember that these arenot simply farmers who pick up
(31:05):
grandpa's gun from the mantle and run.
into the fields.
They are themselves an army,and Massachusetts alone was
capable of putting thousands ofmen well armed into the field.
One of my officers, after the factdescribed them in the following, he
said anyone who sees, I believe itwas Earl Percy, Anyone who sees them
(31:28):
as an irregular mob is much mistaken.
They have men amongst them whoknow very well what they are about.
So this was a concerted effortto arm their own men, the
populace, and the countryside.
, upon instructions from London, myintent was to pull the fangs from
(31:49):
this snake, this monster, beforeit could rear its ugly head.
Unfortunately, I believethat we were simply too late.
We had made efforts to Seized powderin previous September in Charlestown
and elsewhere and increasingly thecountryside was armed well beyond
(32:10):
our ability to properly deal with.
So what we resorted to was secrecyand a lightning raid out to conquer,
to seize and destroy the city.
Unfortunately, as we have discussedearlier, word of this effort got out.
Most of the material had beenmoved by the time Colonel Smith
(32:30):
and his expedition got to Concord.
And due to an unfortunate incident onthe way in a little town called Lexington
And also because of the riders, thecountryside was alarmed and began to close
in on the soldiers in a most outrageousmanner, with little provocation, they
(32:51):
began to shoot And to pepper the columnwith gunfire all the way back as they
attempted to retreat from Concord.
There was also an incident at a smallbridge where the militia literally
attacked the companies that were there.
This is civil war.
They are attacking their own soldiers.
(33:13):
And there's no excuse for that.
And then they behaved in most outrageousmanner firing against our people all the
way back until they were rescued by a aparty under the Brigadier Earl Percy and
then further fighting to return to Bostonwhere they found themselves besieged.
(33:34):
I do believe this wasall a pre concerted plan.
And then in fact, in hindsight, I realizethat the arms and ammunition that were
held in the town of Concord were not.
Put farther away and not further into Boston, but it exactly the correct
(33:55):
distance that it would take approximatelyone day to march out and seize and return
and that was in fact a giant trap and Thatthe the Yankees intended in every way , to
attack the King's soldiers and to bringon this war, they needed only the excuse.
(34:17):
And in hindsight, I'mafraid we gave it to them.
, you believe that whole setup was atrap, , and , everything went down
exactly as they were planning it.
Very much so, at least assome of them were planning.
I'm sure not all of them, becauseYankees don't agree with each other.
Right?
Or anybody.
But certainly when you look atthe Samuel Adams's, the Committee
(34:39):
of Safety, as they called it,And there are various regimental
commanders like Barrett and others.
Yes I suspect that they may have beenmomentarily surprised by the effort
made by His Majesty's soldiers, butit was in fact the very day that
they had all been preparing for.
How do you like that name?
(35:00):
The committee of safety.
There's a nice piece of marketing in that.
It is indeed, yes,
Whose safety it's all inthe eye of the beholder,
I always thought thatname was really good.
. That's very helpful by the way.
It makes a lot of sensewhat you're saying.
Now , let me see your impression ofthe Boston tea party now, or I'm sorry,
the destruction of the tea, because
(35:21):
that is a catchy name, it might catch on,
It's all marketing in America.
So what is your impression of that?
Cause the Americans, , they seethat, , they were being treated
very fairly at the Sol T situation.
And they're like, that'sit enough already.
Well, I think that it's plain thatthis was an attempt to stick from
their perspective, the Americans.
(35:43):
It was the, or the Bostonians,I should say, specifically.
It was their opportunity to stick apoke in the eye to what they considered
to be the high and the mighty.
In fact, it was an opportunityfor the East India Company.
To sell a tea and get itself out of afinancial bind and a situation but it
(36:03):
was also an opportunity to undercut uh,and sell below market and you have to
remember that much of the tea and muchof the commerce is being run by people
like, and here he is again, John Hancock.
So Hancock.
Whips up the crowd withprobably Sam Adams is help.
(36:25):
And they plot in the night tothrow this tea into the Harbor.
It is criminal activity.
It is destruction of privateproperty and they do it.
Because it is, in fact, so outrageous,things had been settling down in Boston.
We actually had reached a pointwhere nothing terrible had happened
(36:45):
for even the better part of a year.
There were small fights in thestreets, things of that nature.
But the soldiers had been withdrawn.
They were out at Castle William.
The the streets were relativelypeaceful and Boston was
getting on with its business.
I believe that the the radicals, therevolutionaries here were sensing
(37:08):
that they needed a bold step orthe whole thing would be gone,
was going to slip away from them.
So they needed something.
That was going to both outragethe authorities, which it did, and
radicalize their own base, which it did.
And so, when in doubt, sometimes you dothe outrageous and then you play the
(37:32):
victim when retribution comes your way.
This then prompted the coerciveacts by parliament, very
proper, to close the port.
And to redress the insane method ofgovernment at the time in Massachusetts
, and to reestablish the rule of law inthe province the critical thing here
(37:54):
is that, I do believe that this wasan act of outrage that was intended
deliberately, it was , the mostoutrageous thing they could do at the
time, in the moment to reinvigoratetheir seditious and rebellious plans.
It's this coordinated effort tojust keep throwing logs on the fire.
(38:16):
Just to keep it burninguntil everybody caught up.
Exactly and then when the fire burnsdown you come by with some pitch Or
more wood, or something to cause theflames to leap back up into the sky.
Throw a little tea in there.
That would do it.
Yes.
So what about Bunker Hill?
(38:37):
It seems like this is a big changing,
In directions of your future prospects.
Well, yes the threegenerals were sent over.
Clinton, Burgoyne, and Howe.
And on the ship Cerberus.
In fact, someone wrote a ditty about that.
Noting that Cerberus is the three-headeddog , ending the poem with Bow Wow.
(38:58):
Wow.
Rhyming with how so, the threegenerals arrived and the matter was
that the town of Boston was besieged.
It was the Army's intentand job to break that siege.
And we had plans to attackthe Dorchester Peninsula.
On the south side of the town of Bostonbut the Yankees caught wind again of these
(39:21):
plans and established a small fort onthe top of Breed's Hill, which overlooks
the harbor on the north side by the theestuary of this, of the Charles River.
We flipped the plan and attacked theCharlestown Peninsula and were successful.
in driving the Yankees off the hill butas I have said earlier, , they are well
(39:45):
armed and several of our tactics failed.
One was to envelop, attempt toenvelop the fort, the small fort
with a flanking attack up theMystic River along the beach.
But there were Yankee.
Companies that preventedthat from happening.
And the day was taken and the day wasdecided only through the valiant efforts
(40:10):
of the soldiers and horrific casualtiesin overwhelming , the militia on the Hill.
The initial feeling was that we hadwon a great victory, but realizing
that we had left large parts.
Of our number on the field and thatin fact, the army was largely crippled
(40:33):
after that simply caring for thewounded and Boston the siege was
redoubled and Boston became a rathermiserable besieged town dependent upon
supplies delivered by the Royal Navy.
It was quite the sightto see from the rooftops.
In Boston, with the entire town ofCharlestown in flames, the ships in the
(40:58):
harbor firing their guns at elevationto hit the top of the hill, and the
line of soldiers clad in, in their redcoats moving up and down the hill, and
eventually overwhelming and driving.
All the way back to the land, thelink with the rest of Charlestown
(41:19):
a devastating battle and one whichperhaps could have done better.
I feel that if, , Admiral graves, whowas our naval commander had sounded
the mystic river more properly, hecould have sent one of his ships
up there and it would have been.
Quick work to deal with theseYankee divisions that were up there
.So, a Pyrrhic victory as they say, and one which I think has had a
(41:44):
deleterious effect upon hopes for apeaceful resolution of this conflict.
We now find ourselves.
In real warfare, I think up untilthat point, there was a chance.
That if we had, if the army hadbeen able to prevail much more
easily, it may have taken the sailsout of the wind of this revolt.
(42:08):
Unfortunately, the casualties thatwere taken and the death toll that
was inflicted on, upon our armies hasgiven hope and wind to this rebellion.
And I now feel that the future is,has a much more difficult path.
Yeah.
It's hard to imagine shaking hands andworking things out after the number of
(42:29):
casualties that happened in that battle.
It was savage.
, what do you what would you have to sayabout the way that the Americans fight
because Do the British you still line upin straight lines and shoot at each other?
Don't you and the Americans don't do that.
Is that correct?
I would disagree.
I believe that the tactics that thearmy uses and that the militia uses are
(42:52):
more similar than they are different.
We have for example, ourlight infantry, who are well
trained in the use of terrain.
And in what is known as Petite Guerre,the small war flanking moving around
behind the entire effort at BunkerHill or Breed's Hill in Charlestown
(43:15):
was to fix the Yankees in front of us.
With these battalions of grenadiersand regulars and all the while run
the light infantry up behind themand to envelop the entire army of
militia to basically bag them up.
And unfortunately when that efforton the mystic beach failed the
(43:39):
battle degenerated into the greatfrontal assault that we witnessed.
the Yankees in the field will veryoften use very similar tactics.
They have the same weaponsand they read the same books.
So , yes, there are opportunities andthis happened during the retreat from
(43:59):
Lexington and from Concord, that theywill use the land and they will use the
stonewalls and the trees and the terrain.
But our soldiers aretrained in how to do that.
Also the disadvantage that they had.
On the road from Concord was that wasthe only way back to Boston and at
Bunker Hill, they are . Similarly,they were in the attacking force.
(44:24):
They had to get up and climb that hill.
And so, in doing so, you expose yourself.
There was savage fighting in thetown of Charlestown as it burned.
Street by street and house by house.
So, our soldiers are theequal of any of these Yankees.
Unfortunately, I think we're findingthat they are the equal to ours also.
(44:49):
So what is your situation now?
, obviously we've reached a pointwhere it doesn't look like
we're going to be turning back.
You're in England.
What has happened to your rank ? , haveyou been given the responsibility for
this failure at bunker or breeds Hill?
mutterings of that.
I am no longer the Commanderin Chief in North America.
(45:10):
I remain Governor of the Provinceof Massachusetts Bay, at least in
name and , I have my rank in theArmy and I am now an advisor to
His Majesty and to the Ministers.
However, I will say that there is ascent in the air that Somehow this
(45:31):
was not all handled well, and thereis some bit of scapegoating that I
believe is going on in the back rooms.
But , these are politicalmatters, and some of these
people, they do what they must do.
I will not concern myself,I've given it my best, and we
sought peace at every turn.
(45:52):
But again some of my advice was notfollowed as I have said earlier,
either acquiesce or overwhelm.
And the ministers and manyothers chose a middle path.
Which has ended us where we are now.
So yes, I will take my responsibilityfor those parts of this, that I had
a part in and that I was responsiblefor, and I wish his majesty all the
(46:16):
best and the army all of the best.
And I hope for victory in ourforce of arms, but , I suspect
that I will be given some sortof , as they call it, a desk job.
now that you are away from the battlefieldand, , you're not on the front lines,
. Do you still have empathy or sympathyor some understanding of their cause?
(46:38):
Or are you just completely fed up?
And if you never see a Yankeeagain, it'll be too soon.
I would tend towards the latter.
I think I've had a belly full.
Do recall as I took ship,I said some unkind words.
About the town of Boston andwishing that it simply been burned.
(46:59):
You must remember that I had anexcellent career in the army until I
became the governor of Massachusetts.
And I could sit here and complain andsay that I was given an impossible job.
But as a military officer, youtake on very often impossible jobs.
very much.
And this was simply another one.
(47:19):
I, I did my very best.
The situation was already rather out ofhand by the time I arrived on the scene.
And I did what I could.
And so, it is now up to others.
General Gage, it is so enlighteningthat get this perspective from
your side of these events.
And I thank you for all this time.
(47:40):
It is.
I've really enjoyed this conversation.
I guess there's one lastquestion that I'd like to ask.
And then if there's anything you'd liketo share, I'd certainly like to hear it.
that last question is, is thereone mistake that haunts you?
answer would be two possible points.
The first would have been to send amore overwhelming force out to Concord.
(48:03):
We eventually sent 2, 000 men.
It might have been very different had Isimply sent them all out at the same time.
But in fact, we only sent the Grenadiersand Light Infantry on the initial
effort, and then reinforced them later.
The second was later.
In that same event, when we withdrew oursoldiers from the Charlestown peninsula,
(48:30):
because that is where they retreated toat the end of that day of April 19th.
Unfortunately, there were concernsand fears that the town of Boston
itself would rise up beneath us.
That his people would engagein fights in the street.
So we pulled everyone back into thetown, only to have to take Charlestown
(48:54):
back again two months later.
I see.
If we had simply stayed out there,we would have been more secure.
If we had managed to occupy , thatpeninsula, then that battle in
June may have never been necessary.
You wouldn't have had to fight it twice.
Exactly.
(49:14):
Yeah.
Gosh, that's interesting.
Well, we're all brilliant with hindsight.
Absolutely.
Heh.
Sir, again, thank you.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
I think simply that I amhopeful that someday America
and Britain will be friends.
That is my heartfelt wish,and someday it may happen.
(49:36):
I can tell you that does happen,but we have a couple, couple
tough years between now and then.
I'm gratified to hear it.
Thank you again for your time,
thank you very much, and it's been apleasure speaking with you this day.
When the British occupied Boston, theAmericans fighting for independence,
treated them like they were invaders.
Coming to take their guns andtrying to steal their Liberty.
(49:56):
But the reality is that the Americancolonies were part of the British
empire and both sides thoughtthey were fighting for what was
theirs prior to this conversation.
I'd really never heard the other sideof this argument as general gauge
referred to this as a civil war.
Which is probably the mostaccurate description of what was
happening until the declarationof independence was signed.
(50:19):
This was the English fighting the English.
If the south had won the American civilwar, there would have been two countries.
Which more or less is exactlywhat happened when the
Americans beat the British.
You could argue that for theUnited States to exist as it
does right now, the Americans hadto somehow win two civil wars.
One to break a nation apart andone to hold a nation together.
(50:44):
And if Thomas gauges request for enough,troops had not been ignored, we'd all be
reading history books, telling the storyof the brave general gage that squashed
that rebel George Washington, like a bug.
Thanks for listening.
And don't forget that when you tell afriend about the calling history podcast.
Uh, pirate somewhere decidesit's time to get a library card.
(51:06):
I'm Tony Dean.
And until next time I'm history.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.