August 21, 2024 • 45 mins
In Part 2 of the 1802 conversation with Thomas Paine, he’ll talk about his relationships with Napoleon, George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin. He’ll also share his controversial opinions on the bible and religion that nearly caused him to be erased from history.
Start episode 2 to join the conversation.
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I’m so thankful to Steve Gulick for never letting us forget Thomas Paine’s role in American Independence. The countless hours you put into learning the history and replicating Thomas Paine’s mannerisms and speech pattern creates an authenticity that makes this conversation unforgettable. Thank you for this amazing performance, Steve.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Welcome back to part two of Thomas Paine.
In the last episode, we were justfinishing the story about how a
mis-marked X on a door barely saved.
Thomas Payne.
From a trip to the guillotine.
We also talked about common sense.
A significant document in Americanhistory that United the people
and made them wonder, Hey.
Maybe we should be fighting for Liberty.
(00:49):
In the next episode, he's going to finishhis story about nearly being executed.
He'll discuss his relationship withBenjamin Franklin, Napoleon, George
Washington, and how his path crossedwith so many of these giants of
history and midway through we'lluncover why he came to America at
all, which certainly wasn't dumb luck.
(01:10):
It was the brilliance ofsomeone else, someone who was
recruiting talent for America.
And at one point They decided thatit was time for me to be executed,
so , that part of the operation theycame through the prison, putting big
X marks on the doors as they went by.
(01:32):
Well, the door to my cell was pushedback against the wall because it
was open because , the guard andI were having a conversation.
And when the, um, came aroundto mark my door as being someone
who would be executed the nextday, they marked the door.
(01:56):
But then when he closed the doorat the end of our conversation,
the mark was on the inside andnot visible from the hallway.
So they passed me up.
And I was not executed.
I don't really believe in miracles,but it felt a little like that.
, just because the door had been opened,that I was spared having my head severed.
(02:23):
And this was during the time,if I understand right, I think
you were imprisoned in 1793.
So if I have my dates right,this is right in the middle.
of the reign of terror whereeverybody's getting their heads cut off.
Is that right?
That's right.
That's right.
And it didn't really as you probablyknow, for some reason it was decided
(02:49):
that executing somebody with aguillotine rather than an axe was more
scientific and less fearful and so on.
I can't imagine because what they do isthey strap you down and they lie you down
with your head sticking out through a,not exactly a hole, but a sort of like a
(03:11):
an opening,
a stock with the stocks, , you have theboard below your head and the board above
your head to keep you locked in place.
Well, the top part.
Of course, it's where theguillotine blade comes down.
And and it's supposedly morehumane than having a man with
an axe cutting your head off.
(03:32):
I'm not so sure about that, but Ididn't have to experience either one.
, the kinder.
More gentle way to lose your head.
It was supposedly a more scientific andtherefore I suppose they thought since it
was more scientific, it was more humane.
(03:52):
Oh, it doesn't seem that way.
I didn't exactly face it, butI know lots of people did.
And the other part, of course, thatwas horrible was that it became a show
and people would gather around Thegallows, it was a different kind of
gallows than if you're being hanged,but around the gallows and they would
(04:15):
all be cheering and, goodness knows,egged on by, by having pints to drink
while they were standing around.
, not at all what I, Considerany sort of civilized behavior.
It's very different if you're asoldier and you're charging into
battle and the fact that you might getshot is not necessarily a guarantee
(04:39):
that your head will be cut off.
Whereas with a guillotine, your headis going to be cut off, , sometimes
the axeman would make a mistakeand would miss and just cut
part of your neck or something.
But not the guillotine.
. , so it's incredible luck that they passyou by and it would've been nothing.
'cause so many people wereprobably being beheaded that day.
(05:02):
It would've been just no big deal.
You'd just been one of the 50or a hundred or 10 or whatever.
But even you had to get That's right.
Eventually you had to get outta prison.
So how did you get outta prison,
? Well, how I got outta prison finally.
And remember I was onlythere for 10 months.
I was not there for years.
Gouverneur Morris had been the agentfrom America, the ambassador, I guess
(05:26):
he was called, and he wasn't very happyabout it all, and he wanted to go home,
and so he was brought America, andJames Monroe was sent , in his place,
and James Monroe actually knew me alittle bit, And knew , that I was in
danger and was able to get me released.
(05:47):
. So it was not really my doing exceptthat Monroe and I knew each other.
Which might be luck again thathe happens to get that position.
That's right.
I had nothing to do with that.
I would have suggested that GouverneurMorris be sent back to America and
somebody else be brought in his place.
But because he obviously.
(06:08):
Morris didn't care abit for people like me.
In fact, at one point, I think Imay have said this already he he
took a dislike into me because Ididn't even speak the King's English.
That, oh, that's how that'swhere that came about.
What does he mean by the King's English?
Well, my, my language isn't polished.
(06:30):
It not polished for the aristocratsor is it just more of a common tongue?
That's right.
It's more of a, it'smore of a common tongue.
, there, there are people who areof a certain status often get
trained to speak in some fancy way.
The man who had the most impacton the way I speak was my father.
(06:52):
Because when he was working and I wasthere trying to help him and trying
to learn being a stay maker we wouldtalk and he would tell me important
things or things he thought wereimportant for me to know as his son.
And he would tell me lots of thingsabout the Quakers and that sort of thing.
And that it's whatcreated the way I speak.
(07:15):
Let me ask you something about Quakers.
The Quakers are deeplyreligious people, aren't they?
Well, yes and no.
I mean, I think it's like many othergroups that some are more embedded
in the practice of being whateversort of religious person you are.
The, a big difference is that theQuakers tended to be people who were
(07:42):
of lower fatness in society, perhaps, the least of the Quakers in terms of
that sort of thing was William Penn,who was the son of a man also named
William Penn, who was the admiral orbecame the admiral of the British Navy.
(08:02):
Now, this was long before I was bornand William Penn got a proper education,
although he got into trouble when hestarted to become a Quaker, his father was
not a Quaker his father was the Admiralof the British Navy, and in fact, the two
of them had a kind of a fallen out whenWilliam Penn, the younger went to his
(08:26):
father to present his sword, he decided, he wanted not to be a gentleman's son.
, he wanted to be a good quaker.
And so he wanted to be rid of hissword and , he tried to convince
his father to take the sword.
And I don't remember the outcome ofthat , it's considerably before my time.
(08:48):
But . He was a much morepolished fellow than anybody else
I continue to see a trend inthe, , the trajectory of your life.
And so the American revolutionneeds to take place.
And so common sense needs to be there.
And then the soldiers need to be inspiredand the American crisis is written by you.
And then the And
(09:10):
remember you, you keep seeing theAmerican crisis and that was the overall
title of, I believe it was 16 differentpamphlets written at different times.
Pamphlets.
Okay.
Those 16 pamphlets.
Okay.
That's good to know.
Okay, good.
And then we have the Rights of Man, whichplays a role in the French Revolution,
and so now, basically, what has happenedis you've conquered the American
(09:34):
Revolution, the French Revolution takesplace, you even do time in jail for
this and almost lose your head, and nowit's time to write the Age of Reason,
and it, unless I'm reading this wrong,This is another document that you've
written that is challenging authority,but the age of reason is challenging.
(09:55):
The authority of religionor God, isn't it?
Am I wrong on that?
It is a treatise.
On the difference, difference, humanbeings, intellectual abilities and
their belief systems, which I supposeis a way of saying their religion.
And as we know, different religionshave very different belief systems.
(10:19):
Quakers tend to have a belief that allhumans are equal, and this includes women,
which is important, in the eyes of God.
No.
Amongst human beings themselves,there are some very strong differences
and the Quakers weren't necessarily
as interested as others in, , for exampleallowing People of all status and gender
(10:47):
to vote, but the main point that I wastrying to make in The Age of Reason is
that an awful lot of what is claimed tobe some kind of history is not history.
It's just, it's a sort of mythology.
And a lot of people don't wantto hear that, they say, but it's
(11:11):
in the Bible, so it must be true.
Well, I was forced by mymother to memorize a lot of the
Bible when I was in prison.
In fact, I started writing The Age ofReason and I did not have to rely on.
Having a copy of the Bible,goodness knows, I probably would
have gotten a French one, and thatwouldn't have done me any good.
(11:33):
I Could remember many of thepassages that my mother had pushed
me to memorize when I was a lad.
And so I used that.
To begin to wrestle with the factthat we have these beliefs that
may or may not be , the truth.
(11:54):
Now, Quakers often talk aboutthe truth, and the truth is
not necessarily the truth.
The same as
intellectual truth, it maybe some other kind of truth.
But my purpose was to say don'tallow yourself to be fooled by
things that aren't really so.
(12:16):
And there are parts of the Biblethat, for example, the book of
Moses was not actually written byMoses as we can tell today, although
some people don't believe it.
They say, Oh, but it must be,but there are contradictions.
If you read it fairly closely, youcan see that it could not have been
(12:37):
written by Moses because Moses wasat a different time than the time.
That's being discussed in thatparticular part of that book.
Is it your contention , that church andthe Bible itself is , all created by man?
It's a construct of man?
Basically, yes.
And that we allow ourselves to havesome of our own ability to think about
(13:01):
things taken away from us becausewe decide that what we're reading
in this book are the real thing.
As compared to the realitythat we all live in life.
So,
do you think that thisis just a form of propaganda?
That kings and queens and educatedpeople are using to control the
(13:23):
masses, or how do you see that?
Well, I suppose you could say that, thatit is kind of a mythology forced upon.
People who ought to know better.
They allow themselves to be convincedin one way or another, and of course,
one way of convincing them is to Isuppose the word is indoctrinate them
(13:46):
when they're young, just as my mothertried to indoctrinate me to realize
that the Bible was the truth, whereas myfather Had a different take on the truth
because not everything in the Bible issomething that the Quakers care about.
Do they pick and choose a little bit?
People of all different sorts of sectsand branches , in this case, Christianity,
(14:12):
have different Points of view on what isreal and what is perhaps a made up story.
, many people seem to believeeven thoughtful Quakers
accept , that Jesus was God.
It gets very confusing, and as achild, I found it very confusing that,
(14:32):
you've got, God, you've got Jesus, andyou've got the Holy Spirit, and that's
three different parts of one thingthat we call divinity or something.
, as far as I'm concerned, it'snot very useful in our living.
So it seems like you clearly don'tbelieve in the Bible, and you don't maybe
necessarily believe in the church, butdo you believe in God in some fashion?
(14:56):
I guess I don't worry about it so much.
. I find that an awful lot ofwhat is taught in religion is
a way of controlling people.
And , it's not somethingthat I'm interested in.
Because I don't want to control anyone.
I want to encourage people tothink about things in certain ways.
And if they agree with me, that's fine.
(15:18):
And if they don't, then we havean argument, and that's fine too.
I'm going to guess that thisfeeling of not, being controlled
or controlling other people.
Certainly that would be popular witha lot of people, freedom in general.
But I'm going to guess questioning thechurch did not win you a lot of friends.
Is that correct?
That's right.
That's right.
In fact, It was one of the thingsthat once I came back to America, I
(15:44):
was fearful that some of the peoplewho were more religious, than I
would, in effect, disown me Becauseof my, a, not a religious person.
Did that happen?
Yeah, well, one of the people wehad some exchange of communication.
(16:05):
One was John Adams.
He was very upset that I was tryingto for some reason, the expression,
turn over the apple cart of religion.
Okay.
And He was not, well, remember, he cameinto religion from a fairly I wouldn't
say necessarily that he was a Puritan,but it was fairly strict reading of,
(16:29):
as though it were truth of the Biblein a way that, that even Quakers don't
do, because there's a lot in the Biblethat Quakers are not interested in.
They don't believe in miracles.
The Quakers don't.
Okay.
So let's talk about some of these people.
You had mentioned John Adams.
You were rubbing elbows with some veryimportant people throughout your life.
(16:52):
Even though , some people were not reallyhappy about, , these beliefs that you
have in God and the church and such.
You're listed as a founding father.
And I think that you're the mostfounding of the founding fathers.
Without you, there's a lot ofstuff I don't think that happens.
And you were rubbing elbows,like I said, with John Adams.
And you had mentioned George Washington.
You'd mentioned Dr.
(17:14):
Franklin.
I feel like he's drivingyou all over the world.
He tells you to come toAmerica, you come to America.
He tells you to go toFrance, you go to France.
. Well, he
didn't tell me to go to France.
I, that was my own decision.
Well, yes, you're right.
To get approval from the FrenchAcademy , from my bridge.
But he was more focusedon that for me than.
And for some other reason hewas trying to help me have the
(17:36):
wherewithal to build the bridge.
Let's talk about him for a minute.
Your relationship with Dr.
Franklin.
What was that relationship?
, were you and him friends?
Well,, he was a lot older than I.
As you remember , I think he wasthe oldest of the people we think
of as relating to the revolutionand the declaration of independence
(17:59):
and the constitution and all that.
He was sort of the father orgrandfather of everyone else in a way.
Not everybody got along with him.
Necessarily but he was respected partlybecause , he was a person who cared about
other people and , he convinced himselfthat he needed to be a gentleman in life.
(18:20):
And so he went , from being a supposethe phrase might be a ragamuffin or
so when he arrived in Philadelphia.
, as I recall, he didn't even necessarilyhave any shoes and he had to buy loaf
of bread for a penny and wanderedaround munching on the loaf of bread
and trying to figure out what to doin this city called Philadelphia.
(18:43):
He made a real name for himself.
, not only was he a printer , which wasnot something his father was interested
in him becoming, his father wantedhim to follow in the the candle making
business, which is what his father did.
, Franklin was much more interestedin the idea of shared thinking,
(19:04):
and one of the best ways ofdoing that is to print things.
And it's interesting that at thetime when I was looking for someone
to print common sense, I didn't goto Franklin, and one of the reasons
was that he had sort of stopped beingprinter, , and he was trying, at
first, to convince the British thatthey should treat the colonies better.
(19:27):
And that turned out to be a failure,and he wasn't able to do that.
And so that's why eventually therevolution started because , he wasn't
able to convince people around the kingto behave properly toward the colonists.
A lot of the wealth of the British camefrom the colonies, raw materials trees
(19:53):
and cotton, . And , they wanted allthe things that America had to offer.
And often were not willing to pay morethan they were willing to pay, which meant
that people either got nothing or wereunderpaid depending on circumstances.
Well, I'll tell you whatI'm wondering though.
I'm wondering what, okay, so you'rein England and prior to 1774 and the
(20:19):
American Revolution is, , simmering,hasn't quite taken off yet.
And Benjamin Franklin requeststhat you come to the United States.
I'm just wondering why he contacts you,
, He did not contact me.
What happened was, we had met when I wasjust off the King of Prussia ship with
(20:40):
money in my pockets and I was able to goto lectures and do interesting things.
And I ran into Dr.
Franklin he was quite interested in me.
He thought that I would be ableto do some useful things in
America if I were to go there.
And so I knew no one really in America.
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He wrote a letter.
To his son in law, Richard Bate, whogot me established and got me connected
actually with the printing people whowere there and active in Philadelphia.
Franklin was not there.
He was in England at the time.
And so I was able to make contact.
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Through Franklin , because hegave me a letter of introduction
on the ship across to America.
, I don't know what it was, but Iwas almost on my deathbed by the
time we arrived in Philadelphia.
And when I, tried to figure out whatto do with this almost dead body.
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They went through my pockets and so onand found this letter from Franklin,
and , whoever it was on the ship,said, this fellow knows Franklin.
We best tried to keep him alive if we can.
And they sent for a doctorwho was able to help me heal.
And, but it took me weeks to feel likemyself again, and I was able begin
(22:13):
to establish myself in Philadelphia.
Franklin was not there yet.
arrived , in the spring, , Iarrived at the end of 74, and
he arrived in the spring of 75.
He must
He must have encouraged you and wrotethat letter because he saw talent in you.
That's right.
(22:33):
You'd mentioned a minute ago,the declaration of independence.
And , in our time, there's a known copyof the Declaration of Independence, which,
by the way am I right to say that you didnot sign the Declaration of Independence?
Oh, not at all.
No, because , I was not at all involvedI wrote Common Sense, and Common Sense
(22:53):
sort of set in motion this idea ofdiscussing the idea Of separating oneself
from a monarchy , and , perhaps havinga revolution through common sense.
The declaration was written by thewriting committee of the Congress,
(23:13):
which I had no part in at all.
, that raises my question becausethere is a copy of the Declaration of
Independence that I believe that onetime was in the hands of John Adams and
I may be mixing this up, but on the backof it, it says something like , this
approved or a version of this from T P.
And there are a lot of peoplethat think that is Thomas Paine.
(23:36):
? So you didn't haveanything to do with that?
No, I'm unaware of that document.
Well, then we're going tohave to figure out who TP is.
Well, I
don't know.
Perhaps you can find out.
Okay.
, there were quite a number of people whohad, Different ideas about who wrote
Common Sense since I didn't put my nameon it and people were saying, well, it
(23:57):
must have been written by Franklin orby Benjamin Rush , , as I said earlier,
Benjamin Rush who had gotten in troublewriting something earlier was a little
loathe to, alienate some of his otherpatients and friends as he had done before
so it ended up falling to me , to do it.
(24:19):
I said, well, I can write andI've been listening to all the
discussions you've been having.
And so I think I can do it and uh, did.
So let's talk about Washingtonfor a minute, General Washington.
Yes.
. It appears to me that in your firstengagements with him that you
maybe felt one way about Washingtonand that changed over time.
(24:42):
Can you tell me about that relationship?
, Washington was very much aware that I wrote Common Sense.
And as far as I know, he'd read it.
And it's one of the reasons whyhe asked me to write something
inspiring for the troops to be readbefore they crossed the Delaware
to attack the Hessians in, Trenton.
(25:05):
I did that at his request thepart that starts out, These are
the times that try men's souls.
I was trying to make it as powerfulas I could at the beginning.
You may be aware that thebeginning of common sense
doesn't sound like that at all.
It's not a, clarion callfor people to gather around.
(25:26):
, it doesn't stir the heart quite as much.
As These are the timesthat try men's souls.
, I wanted to make sure that Washingtonwas pleased with my efforts.
Did your feelings aboutWashington change later though?
They did indeed.
And the reason was that while I wasmoldering in prison in France and
(25:49):
Gouverneur Morris was not payingany attention to my state not that
he cared I thought that Washingtonknew that I was in prison and that
he was doing nothing to help me.
Not as though that I'd done nothingfor America and for the revolution
. So I was quite perturbed that hewas simply ignoring me in prison.
(26:14):
Well, he didn't even knowthat I was in prison.
And I think he didn't know untilJames Monroe came and took over
as the ambassador to France.
And I'm sure that then James Monroe toldWashington that I was in fact in prison.
But I didn't know any of that at the time.
And I ended up writing a very hostileletter to General Washington because I
(26:37):
thought he'd simply ignored my plight.
He apparently didn't even knowthat I was in prison though.
I'm not sure why I wouldthink that he would know.
From the French point of view, Iwasn't anybody special, really.
But I was part of the revolution, , andI was on the wrong side at the time,
so the other side decided they'd make amartyr of me, or whatever the right word
(27:02):
is, it's not really a martyr, becausea martyr is a good thing, supposedly.
But I was not interestedin being a martyr at all.
That letter about Washington wasa scathing letter, and I'm just
wondering it seems like arguing theopposite point of people's religious
beliefs and then maybe attackingthe most popular person in America.
(27:24):
I'm going to guess that wasnot very popular either..
It was a letter just to Washington.
, it wasn't something thatI published or anything.
Oh, that wasn't published?
I didn't publish it.
Now, somebody may have.
I didn't.
, I sent the letter to Washingtonand I presume that he read it.
Okay.
So what about Napoleon?
Did you spend time with Napoleon?
(27:46):
Well, I suppose spending time with him isnot quite the right word but in the early
days of Napoleon , He had not declaredhimself emperor, which he did finally.
And that was the end of that.
, I decided that he was not somebodyI wanted to have anything to do with.
But I, for a time I was trying tohelp him think about how to invade
(28:10):
Britain , because he didn't haveany success doing that himself.
I knew something about the lay of theland in England, and I knew something
about how ships might work in thatarea, and I tried to help think about
how could Napoleon and his armiesseize the British Isles as soon as I
(28:33):
realized how much he was interested inbecoming the head of state instead of
just being, , a general or something.
I realized that I didn't want tohave anything to do with him, so I
stopped., I didn't get in troublewith him for that, by the way.
, I have read that Napoleon said atone point that there should be a
(28:54):
gold statue of you erected in everycity in the world based on what
you wrote in the rights of man.
Well, that might be, earlier onthan when I started realizing
what sort of person he was.
So are you an Englishman?
Well, it depends on who'stalking about it.
(29:14):
, definitely don't sound likemost Americans that I know.
So I suppose I am, butthe British don't want me.
I had to, eventually, flee from Britain.
In fact a friend of mine, sort of afriend warned me that the British were
going to come and capture me and throwme in prison because I was , a spy
(29:37):
for France or something like that.
, I definitely was not a spy for France.
I had written The Rights of Manand it was about why the French
Revolution was a good idea.
So, what year is it inyour time right now?
1802.
So are you planning on stayingwhere you are right now?
(29:58):
In France right now?
No,
I need to get back to a placewhere I can understand all the
language going on around me.
France is not it.
. And the British do not welcome me back.
I'm still an outlaw for the British.
So I really can't go there, whichis a big disappointment because
my parents are still, althoughquite old, are still alive.
(30:22):
And I would love to be able to see them,but I don't think I should risk that.
So what are you expecting whenyou go back to the United States?
Are you expected to geta positive reception?
Well, I don't really know.
I know there are people who are,who really are not interested
(30:42):
in talking to me or seeing me.
Adams being one of them.
Not that he and I were ever veryclose, but we had some communication
and he had some nice things tosay about common sense early.
He changed his mind later and decidedthat nothing that I did was Very helpful
(31:03):
to the revolution or anything else.
, it seems to me that Adams,John Adams, would be the first
person to get behind you.
Because John Adams liked to stirthings up, , with good ideas.
And you had a lot of really good ideas.
Well, he came from a very sort ofstrict religious point of view and
That really changed his idea about me.
(31:26):
I don't think he'd even really thoughtabout religion I might be or whatever.
Not something I talk about a lot.
I did write about it in The Age ofReason but , it's not been one of my,
just appreciate everything that you'vedone and your opinions, you have so many
great ideas and there's one problem thatis certainly still looming in America
(31:51):
and that in your time and that is slaveryand I'm wondering what your thoughts are
on that or if you have maybe a solution?
Oh, I wish I had a solution.
Unfortunately, the way that theConstitution got written and wrote
out that whole part of the Americanexperience, because slavery had been
(32:13):
part of America well before since wellbefore the founding of Philadelphia
and back when New York was just a tinylittle place and Boston was fairly
large, but it was still, early.
And the important things hadn't, , interms of thinking about such things as
(32:38):
religion and, , what sort of governmentwe ought to have that . It hadn't
happened yet, , had it been possible to
change the whole notion ofkeeping people in, in bondage.
You might be aware that among others,there were some Quakers, but they . Were
originally from Germany, and theyweren't originally Quakers, . They were
(33:01):
Mennonites from Germany, and , some ofthem had become Quakers because Quakers
were what was big in Philadelphia atthe time, and in 1688, well before
I was born, they wrote up a treatisecalling for the abolition of slavery,
(33:23):
and remember this was a group ofMennonites who had become Quakers and
were connected to the, what Quakers calledthe monthly meeting up in the Germantown
part of Philadelphia, and they wanted.
The other Quakers around, tocall for the abolition of slavery.
(33:47):
And they presented it and apparently theQuaker meeting in Philadelphia said, Oh,
this is a very weighty topic and we'renot sure that we're prepared to handle it.
So, let's send it to the quarterlymeeting, which is the next step up in
terms of how the Quakers work which is aconglomeration of other monthly meetings
(34:10):
, and The quarterly meeting said, Oh, thisis a very weighty topic and we're not
sure we should try to deal with this.
And they sent it on to the yearlymeeting, which was the umbrella group
for the whole of the Quaker communityand in Pennsylvania and even in,
(34:30):
into parts of Maryland and Delaware.
And , a committee of the yearlymeeting , tried to deal with it.
And that's where it ended.
There was no action on it.
So , that particular episode was importantin some ways, but it did not arrive at any
sort of, , we Quakers should all becomeabolitionists and not have slaves anymore.
(34:56):
It's such a challenging topic.
Nobody really wants to.
To handle that fireball.
They just want to keep passing it down.
Well, that even happened with theconstitution itself, and the constitution
discusses people who were held inbondage when it's talking about the
number of, citizens that you can have.
(35:17):
In a certain area and, but there'snever any mention of slavery or black
people or slaveholders , it's all sortof hidden in plain sight, but not named.
You have this, the Constitution settingup a way of counting people that
(35:39):
includes people who are held in bondage,but they don't count as full people.
I believe it's three fifths,three fifths of a person.
I think hidden in plain sightis a perfect way to put that.
. If people aren't willing to talk aboutit , out loud it's not going to be very
successful, at least in the short term.
(36:00):
I have one more question for you and sir,thank you so much for your time today.
Oh,
my pleasure.
It's been very interesting to talk withsomebody from someplace else in some way
that I've never talked to anybody before.
Well, I am so thankful for you.
Your writings , they just are soincredible to read, even at this time.
My question is, so now the AmericanRevolution is complete, and the country
(36:26):
is establishing itself , how do you feelthe way things are being run right now?
. Well, I'm pleased that at thetime, Jefferson is president.
I think he's got a good head on hisshoulders, unfortunately, , despite
the fact that he had importantthings to say about the evils of
(36:47):
slavery when he was younger, heseems to be moving away from that.
And not really focused on, well, whatdo we do about the issue of slavery?
And he's not grappling with that.
Which
makes me feel very sad, andespecially I understand that, One of
(37:07):
his, , acquaintances who was , one ofWashington's important generals , , who
became quite excited about theidea of the abolition of slavery.
Finally got paid after years and years.
. For his service during the active partof the revolution, and he wanted to have
(37:31):
those funds to be put toward buying peoplewho were in slavery, and then providing
for them to be able to settle in Africa.
I'm not sure how good an ideathat is, but still, it was better
than having them still in bondage.
and he wanted Jefferson to carrythis out and gave the money to
(37:55):
Jefferson and Jefferson never did it.
So you're glad that Jefferson's runningthings, but at the same time, he's a
flawed person like the rest of us, right?
Well, of course., which is why Idon't like the idea of Kings , I'm
the king, so I know best, and sothe rest of you should follow me.
, and it's true for people at every level.
(38:16):
Yeah.
, I'm with you 100%.
So, tell me this, How wouldyou like people to see you
or view you in the future?
Well, I suppose it would be nice tobe thought of at least that I tried
my best to do what I thought was bestfor people in society and people who
(38:37):
are trying to find a way to live morepeaceably and honestly with each other.
Thank you.
And if people can capturethose ideas from what I wrote
about I think I would be happy.
I don't expect to live long enoughto have everybody doing that though.
(38:57):
Well, I think if you saw yourreputation in our time, I
think you'd be quite pleased.
Is there anything elsethat you'd like to add?
Well, , for some reason, non at theback of my head, is the fact that
I haven't brought up the subjectof poetry and singing, both of
which have been part of my life.
When I was in school, I was mostinterested in poetry and in science.
(39:24):
Once before I guess I was in school,I was about seven or eight and I was
wandering around just entertainingmyself in the fields around our small
town of Thetford, and I came acrossa bird , who clearly was not well.
And I tried to help the bird, , regainhis strength , but it was too late.
(39:50):
And so he died and I picked himup and held him in my hand and
thought, well, this is a life andwhat do we do when someone when
their life ends what do we do?
And because of my mother, especially,I thought about, well, , you have a.
funeral, and you sing a hymn, andperhaps you say a prayer, my mother
(40:16):
did all of those things and I thought,well, all right, so what could I sing?
And I thought about it for a bit,and I began to, I remembered a tune
from one of the times, mostly I wentwith my father to the Quaker meeting
but sometimes I went with her.
To the Anglican church and I sang hymns.
(40:39):
I thought, Oh, well, I should have a hymn.
So I looked down at the bird.
It was a crow and I said,or sang here lies the body.
I was a lad.
Here lies the body of John Crow,who once was high, but now is low.
Ye brother crows take ward in all,for as ye rise, so must ye fall.
(41:05):
And then I dug a little hole andput him in it and had a silent
prayer in my head about him.
And, that was that.
Now later during the beginnings of theAmerican revolution, I was inspired to
write a poem, which actually turned outto be a song because I knew a tune that,
(41:27):
that would go with the poem that I wrote.
And I won't try to sing that for youright now, but to say that it's not
exactly great poetry, but it gets atthe point about the liberty tree and
the goddess of liberty descending fromwherever the goddess of liberty descends
from and platen this plant that shenames the liberty tree and people all
(41:55):
gather around the liberty tree and.
And it's kind of a symbol of libertyand justice and those sorts of things.
Singing in taverns was oneof my favorite pastimes.
So, not necessarily as gentlea song as the crow song.
You were always writing, whether itwas poetry or whether it was one of
(42:17):
these pamphlets that moved the world.
You were always writing and alwaysgetting your word out, weren't you?,
Or having arguments intaverns, which I also enjoyed.
But in fact, for a while, , whenI was in Lewis which is a town in
the south of England, there was aclub called the Headstrong Club.
And we would have debates, you might callthem, arguments, but public arguments.
(42:40):
And , you might find it interestingor not surprising, perhaps that
fairly often I've won the debate.
So I became.
The the winner of theheadstrong competitions.
Well, I will tell you that I'mglad that you did win those
debates because the truth is, yourideas were better and , they were
(43:06):
Maybe that's why you wonbecause your ideas were better.
Mr.
Payne I thank you somuch for your time today.
And I wish you the bestin the coming years.
Thank you very much, sir.
I appreciate your doingwhatever magic you did to
Of course you won thosedebates in the taverns.
First of all, he was able tospeak in a way that people could
(43:29):
understand and he was persuasive.
Second of all, ThomasPaine was a good man.
He wasn't writing to get rich.
His plan was to use those fundsto buy mittens for the soldiers.
He wasn't trying to holdsomeone down just the opposite.
He was trying to help peoplerise from underneath the tyranny
of dictators in monarchs.
(43:49):
He wanted people to think forthemselves and make choices.
About what they wanted to do withtheir lives, whether they were free
or enslaved Thomas Paine's lifewas the definition of Liberty yet.
Despite pain's enormous contribution.
That is so obvious.
Now, six people attended his funeral.
All the big wigs that he'd beenhobnobbing with throughout his
(44:11):
life, distanced themselves from himbecause of his controversial writings
on religion that flew in the faceof what everybody else believed.
A few years before he died.
John Adams wrote this.
I could excuse everythingto him, but his impedance.
His common sense, which gave the firstimpression to this country in favor of
(44:34):
independence was short, clear, and strong.
But he was no politician.
He knew not the union ofindependence with government.
He was as bad a reasoner . Ashe was a good writer.
He was wholly destitute of judgmentand sometimes of common sense.
Thomas Paine's obituary stated . He hadlived along, did some good and much harm.
(44:58):
Yet as time passes history always looksclear in the review mirror, and it's
hard to imagine what might not havehappened without his words to unite
the people and inspire the soldiers.
As they say, the pen is morepowerful than the sword.
But.
It may be in this case that without thepen, maybe there would've been no sword.
(45:18):
Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that when you tell afriend about the calling history podcast.
Uh, goldfish realizes it'sactually a shark in disguise.
I'm Tony Dean.
And until next time I'm history.
Welcome back to part two of Thomas Paine.
In the last episode, we were justfinishing the story about how a
mis-marked X on a door barely saved.
Thomas Payne.
From a trip to the guillotine.
We also talked about common sense.
A significant document in Americanhistory that United the people
and made them wonder, Hey.
Maybe we should be fighting for Liberty.
(00:49):
In the next episode, he's going to finishhis story about nearly being executed.
He'll discuss his relationship withBenjamin Franklin, Napoleon, George
Washington, and how his path crossedwith so many of these giants of
history and midway through we'lluncover why he came to America at
all, which certainly wasn't dumb luck.
(01:10):
It was the brilliance ofsomeone else, someone who was
recruiting talent for America.
And at one point They decided thatit was time for me to be executed,
so , that part of the operation theycame through the prison, putting big
X marks on the doors as they went by.
(01:32):
Well, the door to my cell was pushedback against the wall because it
was open because , the guard andI were having a conversation.
And when the, um, came aroundto mark my door as being someone
who would be executed the nextday, they marked the door.
(01:56):
But then when he closed the doorat the end of our conversation,
the mark was on the inside andnot visible from the hallway.
So they passed me up.
And I was not executed.
I don't really believe in miracles,but it felt a little like that.
, just because the door had been opened,that I was spared having my head severed.
(02:23):
And this was during the time,if I understand right, I think
you were imprisoned in 1793.
So if I have my dates right,this is right in the middle.
of the reign of terror whereeverybody's getting their heads cut off.
Is that right?
That's right.
That's right.
And it didn't really as you probablyknow, for some reason it was decided
(02:49):
that executing somebody with aguillotine rather than an axe was more
scientific and less fearful and so on.
I can't imagine because what they do isthey strap you down and they lie you down
with your head sticking out through a,not exactly a hole, but a sort of like a
(03:11):
an opening,
a stock with the stocks, , you have theboard below your head and the board above
your head to keep you locked in place.
Well, the top part.
Of course, it's where theguillotine blade comes down.
And and it's supposedly morehumane than having a man with
an axe cutting your head off.
(03:32):
I'm not so sure about that, but Ididn't have to experience either one.
, the kinder.
More gentle way to lose your head.
It was supposedly a more scientific andtherefore I suppose they thought since it
was more scientific, it was more humane.
(03:52):
Oh, it doesn't seem that way.
I didn't exactly face it, butI know lots of people did.
And the other part, of course, thatwas horrible was that it became a show
and people would gather around Thegallows, it was a different kind of
gallows than if you're being hanged,but around the gallows and they would
(04:15):
all be cheering and, goodness knows,egged on by, by having pints to drink
while they were standing around.
, not at all what I, Considerany sort of civilized behavior.
It's very different if you're asoldier and you're charging into
battle and the fact that you might getshot is not necessarily a guarantee
(04:39):
that your head will be cut off.
Whereas with a guillotine, your headis going to be cut off, , sometimes
the axeman would make a mistakeand would miss and just cut
part of your neck or something.
But not the guillotine.
. , so it's incredible luck that they passyou by and it would've been nothing.
'cause so many people wereprobably being beheaded that day.
(05:02):
It would've been just no big deal.
You'd just been one of the 50or a hundred or 10 or whatever.
But even you had to get That's right.
Eventually you had to get outta prison.
So how did you get outta prison,
? Well, how I got outta prison finally.
And remember I was onlythere for 10 months.
I was not there for years.
Gouverneur Morris had been the agentfrom America, the ambassador, I guess
(05:26):
he was called, and he wasn't very happyabout it all, and he wanted to go home,
and so he was brought America, andJames Monroe was sent , in his place,
and James Monroe actually knew me alittle bit, And knew , that I was in
danger and was able to get me released.
(05:47):
. So it was not really my doing exceptthat Monroe and I knew each other.
Which might be luck again thathe happens to get that position.
That's right.
I had nothing to do with that.
I would have suggested that GouverneurMorris be sent back to America and
somebody else be brought in his place.
But because he obviously.
(06:08):
Morris didn't care abit for people like me.
In fact, at one point, I think Imay have said this already he he
took a dislike into me because Ididn't even speak the King's English.
That, oh, that's how that'swhere that came about.
What does he mean by the King's English?
Well, my, my language isn't polished.
(06:30):
It not polished for the aristocratsor is it just more of a common tongue?
That's right.
It's more of a, it'smore of a common tongue.
, there, there are people who areof a certain status often get
trained to speak in some fancy way.
The man who had the most impacton the way I speak was my father.
(06:52):
Because when he was working and I wasthere trying to help him and trying
to learn being a stay maker we wouldtalk and he would tell me important
things or things he thought wereimportant for me to know as his son.
And he would tell me lots of thingsabout the Quakers and that sort of thing.
And that it's whatcreated the way I speak.
(07:15):
Let me ask you something about Quakers.
The Quakers are deeplyreligious people, aren't they?
Well, yes and no.
I mean, I think it's like many othergroups that some are more embedded
in the practice of being whateversort of religious person you are.
The, a big difference is that theQuakers tended to be people who were
(07:42):
of lower fatness in society, perhaps, the least of the Quakers in terms of
that sort of thing was William Penn,who was the son of a man also named
William Penn, who was the admiral orbecame the admiral of the British Navy.
(08:02):
Now, this was long before I was bornand William Penn got a proper education,
although he got into trouble when hestarted to become a Quaker, his father was
not a Quaker his father was the Admiralof the British Navy, and in fact, the two
of them had a kind of a fallen out whenWilliam Penn, the younger went to his
(08:26):
father to present his sword, he decided, he wanted not to be a gentleman's son.
, he wanted to be a good quaker.
And so he wanted to be rid of hissword and , he tried to convince
his father to take the sword.
And I don't remember the outcome ofthat , it's considerably before my time.
(08:48):
But . He was a much morepolished fellow than anybody else
I continue to see a trend inthe, , the trajectory of your life.
And so the American revolutionneeds to take place.
And so common sense needs to be there.
And then the soldiers need to be inspiredand the American crisis is written by you.
And then the And
(09:10):
remember you, you keep seeing theAmerican crisis and that was the overall
title of, I believe it was 16 differentpamphlets written at different times.
Pamphlets.
Okay.
Those 16 pamphlets.
Okay.
That's good to know.
Okay, good.
And then we have the Rights of Man, whichplays a role in the French Revolution,
and so now, basically, what has happenedis you've conquered the American
(09:34):
Revolution, the French Revolution takesplace, you even do time in jail for
this and almost lose your head, and nowit's time to write the Age of Reason,
and it, unless I'm reading this wrong,This is another document that you've
written that is challenging authority,but the age of reason is challenging.
(09:55):
The authority of religionor God, isn't it?
Am I wrong on that?
It is a treatise.
On the difference, difference, humanbeings, intellectual abilities and
their belief systems, which I supposeis a way of saying their religion.
And as we know, different religionshave very different belief systems.
(10:19):
Quakers tend to have a belief that allhumans are equal, and this includes women,
which is important, in the eyes of God.
No.
Amongst human beings themselves,there are some very strong differences
and the Quakers weren't necessarily
as interested as others in, , for exampleallowing People of all status and gender
(10:47):
to vote, but the main point that I wastrying to make in The Age of Reason is
that an awful lot of what is claimed tobe some kind of history is not history.
It's just, it's a sort of mythology.
And a lot of people don't wantto hear that, they say, but it's
(11:11):
in the Bible, so it must be true.
Well, I was forced by mymother to memorize a lot of the
Bible when I was in prison.
In fact, I started writing The Age ofReason and I did not have to rely on.
Having a copy of the Bible,goodness knows, I probably would
have gotten a French one, and thatwouldn't have done me any good.
(11:33):
I Could remember many of thepassages that my mother had pushed
me to memorize when I was a lad.
And so I used that.
To begin to wrestle with the factthat we have these beliefs that
may or may not be , the truth.
(11:54):
Now, Quakers often talk aboutthe truth, and the truth is
not necessarily the truth.
The same as
intellectual truth, it maybe some other kind of truth.
But my purpose was to say don'tallow yourself to be fooled by
things that aren't really so.
(12:16):
And there are parts of the Biblethat, for example, the book of
Moses was not actually written byMoses as we can tell today, although
some people don't believe it.
They say, Oh, but it must be,but there are contradictions.
If you read it fairly closely, youcan see that it could not have been
(12:37):
written by Moses because Moses wasat a different time than the time.
That's being discussed in thatparticular part of that book.
Is it your contention , that church andthe Bible itself is , all created by man?
It's a construct of man?
Basically, yes.
And that we allow ourselves to havesome of our own ability to think about
(13:01):
things taken away from us becausewe decide that what we're reading
in this book are the real thing.
As compared to the realitythat we all live in life.
So,
do you think that thisis just a form of propaganda?
That kings and queens and educatedpeople are using to control the
(13:23):
masses, or how do you see that?
Well, I suppose you could say that, thatit is kind of a mythology forced upon.
People who ought to know better.
They allow themselves to be convincedin one way or another, and of course,
one way of convincing them is to Isuppose the word is indoctrinate them
(13:46):
when they're young, just as my mothertried to indoctrinate me to realize
that the Bible was the truth, whereas myfather Had a different take on the truth
because not everything in the Bible issomething that the Quakers care about.
Do they pick and choose a little bit?
People of all different sorts of sectsand branches , in this case, Christianity,
(14:12):
have different Points of view on what isreal and what is perhaps a made up story.
, many people seem to believeeven thoughtful Quakers
accept , that Jesus was God.
It gets very confusing, and as achild, I found it very confusing that,
(14:32):
you've got, God, you've got Jesus, andyou've got the Holy Spirit, and that's
three different parts of one thingthat we call divinity or something.
, as far as I'm concerned, it'snot very useful in our living.
So it seems like you clearly don'tbelieve in the Bible, and you don't maybe
necessarily believe in the church, butdo you believe in God in some fashion?
(14:56):
I guess I don't worry about it so much.
. I find that an awful lot ofwhat is taught in religion is
a way of controlling people.
And , it's not somethingthat I'm interested in.
Because I don't want to control anyone.
I want to encourage people tothink about things in certain ways.
And if they agree with me, that's fine.
(15:18):
And if they don't, then we havean argument, and that's fine too.
I'm going to guess that thisfeeling of not, being controlled
or controlling other people.
Certainly that would be popular witha lot of people, freedom in general.
But I'm going to guess questioning thechurch did not win you a lot of friends.
Is that correct?
That's right.
That's right.
In fact, It was one of the thingsthat once I came back to America, I
(15:44):
was fearful that some of the peoplewho were more religious, than I
would, in effect, disown me Becauseof my, a, not a religious person.
Did that happen?
Yeah, well, one of the people wehad some exchange of communication.
(16:05):
One was John Adams.
He was very upset that I was tryingto for some reason, the expression,
turn over the apple cart of religion.
Okay.
And He was not, well, remember, he cameinto religion from a fairly I wouldn't
say necessarily that he was a Puritan,but it was fairly strict reading of,
(16:29):
as though it were truth of the Biblein a way that, that even Quakers don't
do, because there's a lot in the Biblethat Quakers are not interested in.
They don't believe in miracles.
The Quakers don't.
Okay.
So let's talk about some of these people.
You had mentioned John Adams.
You were rubbing elbows with some veryimportant people throughout your life.
(16:52):
Even though , some people were not reallyhappy about, , these beliefs that you
have in God and the church and such.
You're listed as a founding father.
And I think that you're the mostfounding of the founding fathers.
Without you, there's a lot ofstuff I don't think that happens.
And you were rubbing elbows,like I said, with John Adams.
And you had mentioned George Washington.
You'd mentioned Dr.
(17:14):
Franklin.
I feel like he's drivingyou all over the world.
He tells you to come toAmerica, you come to America.
He tells you to go toFrance, you go to France.
. Well, he
didn't tell me to go to France.
I, that was my own decision.
Well, yes, you're right.
To get approval from the FrenchAcademy , from my bridge.
But he was more focusedon that for me than.
And for some other reason hewas trying to help me have the
(17:36):
wherewithal to build the bridge.
Let's talk about him for a minute.
Your relationship with Dr.
Franklin.
What was that relationship?
, were you and him friends?
Well,, he was a lot older than I.
As you remember , I think he wasthe oldest of the people we think
of as relating to the revolutionand the declaration of independence
(17:59):
and the constitution and all that.
He was sort of the father orgrandfather of everyone else in a way.
Not everybody got along with him.
Necessarily but he was respected partlybecause , he was a person who cared about
other people and , he convinced himselfthat he needed to be a gentleman in life.
(18:20):
And so he went , from being a supposethe phrase might be a ragamuffin or
so when he arrived in Philadelphia.
, as I recall, he didn't even necessarilyhave any shoes and he had to buy loaf
of bread for a penny and wanderedaround munching on the loaf of bread
and trying to figure out what to doin this city called Philadelphia.
(18:43):
He made a real name for himself.
, not only was he a printer , which wasnot something his father was interested
in him becoming, his father wantedhim to follow in the the candle making
business, which is what his father did.
, Franklin was much more interestedin the idea of shared thinking,
(19:04):
and one of the best ways ofdoing that is to print things.
And it's interesting that at thetime when I was looking for someone
to print common sense, I didn't goto Franklin, and one of the reasons
was that he had sort of stopped beingprinter, , and he was trying, at
first, to convince the British thatthey should treat the colonies better.
(19:27):
And that turned out to be a failure,and he wasn't able to do that.
And so that's why eventually therevolution started because , he wasn't
able to convince people around the kingto behave properly toward the colonists.
A lot of the wealth of the British camefrom the colonies, raw materials trees
(19:53):
and cotton, . And , they wanted allthe things that America had to offer.
And often were not willing to pay morethan they were willing to pay, which meant
that people either got nothing or wereunderpaid depending on circumstances.
Well, I'll tell you whatI'm wondering though.
I'm wondering what, okay, so you'rein England and prior to 1774 and the
(20:19):
American Revolution is, , simmering,hasn't quite taken off yet.
And Benjamin Franklin requeststhat you come to the United States.
I'm just wondering why he contacts you,
, He did not contact me.
What happened was, we had met when I wasjust off the King of Prussia ship with
(20:40):
money in my pockets and I was able to goto lectures and do interesting things.
And I ran into Dr.
Franklin he was quite interested in me.
He thought that I would be ableto do some useful things in
America if I were to go there.
And so I knew no one really in America.
(21:03):
He wrote a letter.
To his son in law, Richard Bate, whogot me established and got me connected
actually with the printing people whowere there and active in Philadelphia.
Franklin was not there.
He was in England at the time.
And so I was able to make contact.
(21:26):
Through Franklin , because hegave me a letter of introduction
on the ship across to America.
, I don't know what it was, but Iwas almost on my deathbed by the
time we arrived in Philadelphia.
And when I, tried to figure out whatto do with this almost dead body.
(21:48):
They went through my pockets and so onand found this letter from Franklin,
and , whoever it was on the ship,said, this fellow knows Franklin.
We best tried to keep him alive if we can.
And they sent for a doctorwho was able to help me heal.
And, but it took me weeks to feel likemyself again, and I was able begin
(22:13):
to establish myself in Philadelphia.
Franklin was not there yet.
arrived , in the spring, , Iarrived at the end of 74, and
he arrived in the spring of 75.
He must
He must have encouraged you and wrotethat letter because he saw talent in you.
That's right.
(22:33):
You'd mentioned a minute ago,the declaration of independence.
And , in our time, there's a known copyof the Declaration of Independence, which,
by the way am I right to say that you didnot sign the Declaration of Independence?
Oh, not at all.
No, because , I was not at all involvedI wrote Common Sense, and Common Sense
(22:53):
sort of set in motion this idea ofdiscussing the idea Of separating oneself
from a monarchy , and , perhaps havinga revolution through common sense.
The declaration was written by thewriting committee of the Congress,
(23:13):
which I had no part in at all.
, that raises my question becausethere is a copy of the Declaration of
Independence that I believe that onetime was in the hands of John Adams and
I may be mixing this up, but on the backof it, it says something like , this
approved or a version of this from T P.
And there are a lot of peoplethat think that is Thomas Paine.
(23:36):
? So you didn't haveanything to do with that?
No, I'm unaware of that document.
Well, then we're going tohave to figure out who TP is.
Well, I
don't know.
Perhaps you can find out.
Okay.
, there were quite a number of people whohad, Different ideas about who wrote
Common Sense since I didn't put my nameon it and people were saying, well, it
(23:57):
must have been written by Franklin orby Benjamin Rush , , as I said earlier,
Benjamin Rush who had gotten in troublewriting something earlier was a little
loathe to, alienate some of his otherpatients and friends as he had done before
so it ended up falling to me , to do it.
(24:19):
I said, well, I can write andI've been listening to all the
discussions you've been having.
And so I think I can do it and uh, did.
So let's talk about Washingtonfor a minute, General Washington.
Yes.
. It appears to me that in your firstengagements with him that you
maybe felt one way about Washingtonand that changed over time.
(24:42):
Can you tell me about that relationship?
, Washington was very much aware that I wrote Common Sense.
And as far as I know, he'd read it.
And it's one of the reasons whyhe asked me to write something
inspiring for the troops to be readbefore they crossed the Delaware
to attack the Hessians in, Trenton.
(25:05):
I did that at his request thepart that starts out, These are
the times that try men's souls.
I was trying to make it as powerfulas I could at the beginning.
You may be aware that thebeginning of common sense
doesn't sound like that at all.
It's not a, clarion callfor people to gather around.
(25:26):
, it doesn't stir the heart quite as much.
As These are the timesthat try men's souls.
, I wanted to make sure that Washingtonwas pleased with my efforts.
Did your feelings aboutWashington change later though?
They did indeed.
And the reason was that while I wasmoldering in prison in France and
(25:49):
Gouverneur Morris was not payingany attention to my state not that
he cared I thought that Washingtonknew that I was in prison and that
he was doing nothing to help me.
Not as though that I'd done nothingfor America and for the revolution
. So I was quite perturbed that hewas simply ignoring me in prison.
(26:14):
Well, he didn't even knowthat I was in prison.
And I think he didn't know untilJames Monroe came and took over
as the ambassador to France.
And I'm sure that then James Monroe toldWashington that I was in fact in prison.
But I didn't know any of that at the time.
And I ended up writing a very hostileletter to General Washington because I
(26:37):
thought he'd simply ignored my plight.
He apparently didn't even knowthat I was in prison though.
I'm not sure why I wouldthink that he would know.
From the French point of view, Iwasn't anybody special, really.
But I was part of the revolution, , andI was on the wrong side at the time,
so the other side decided they'd make amartyr of me, or whatever the right word
(27:02):
is, it's not really a martyr, becausea martyr is a good thing, supposedly.
But I was not interestedin being a martyr at all.
That letter about Washington wasa scathing letter, and I'm just
wondering it seems like arguing theopposite point of people's religious
beliefs and then maybe attackingthe most popular person in America.
(27:24):
I'm going to guess that wasnot very popular either..
It was a letter just to Washington.
, it wasn't something thatI published or anything.
Oh, that wasn't published?
I didn't publish it.
Now, somebody may have.
I didn't.
, I sent the letter to Washingtonand I presume that he read it.
Okay.
So what about Napoleon?
Did you spend time with Napoleon?
(27:46):
Well, I suppose spending time with him isnot quite the right word but in the early
days of Napoleon , He had not declaredhimself emperor, which he did finally.
And that was the end of that.
, I decided that he was not somebodyI wanted to have anything to do with.
But I, for a time I was trying tohelp him think about how to invade
(28:10):
Britain , because he didn't haveany success doing that himself.
I knew something about the lay of theland in England, and I knew something
about how ships might work in thatarea, and I tried to help think about
how could Napoleon and his armiesseize the British Isles as soon as I
(28:33):
realized how much he was interested inbecoming the head of state instead of
just being, , a general or something.
I realized that I didn't want tohave anything to do with him, so I
stopped., I didn't get in troublewith him for that, by the way.
, I have read that Napoleon said atone point that there should be a
(28:54):
gold statue of you erected in everycity in the world based on what
you wrote in the rights of man.
Well, that might be, earlier onthan when I started realizing
what sort of person he was.
So are you an Englishman?
Well, it depends on who'stalking about it.
(29:14):
, definitely don't sound likemost Americans that I know.
So I suppose I am, butthe British don't want me.
I had to, eventually, flee from Britain.
In fact a friend of mine, sort of afriend warned me that the British were
going to come and capture me and throwme in prison because I was , a spy
(29:37):
for France or something like that.
, I definitely was not a spy for France.
I had written The Rights of Manand it was about why the French
Revolution was a good idea.
So, what year is it inyour time right now?
1802.
So are you planning on stayingwhere you are right now?
(29:58):
In France right now?
No,
I need to get back to a placewhere I can understand all the
language going on around me.
France is not it.
. And the British do not welcome me back.
I'm still an outlaw for the British.
So I really can't go there, whichis a big disappointment because
my parents are still, althoughquite old, are still alive.
(30:22):
And I would love to be able to see them,but I don't think I should risk that.
So what are you expecting whenyou go back to the United States?
Are you expected to geta positive reception?
Well, I don't really know.
I know there are people who are,who really are not interested
(30:42):
in talking to me or seeing me.
Adams being one of them.
Not that he and I were ever veryclose, but we had some communication
and he had some nice things tosay about common sense early.
He changed his mind later and decidedthat nothing that I did was Very helpful
(31:03):
to the revolution or anything else.
, it seems to me that Adams,John Adams, would be the first
person to get behind you.
Because John Adams liked to stirthings up, , with good ideas.
And you had a lot of really good ideas.
Well, he came from a very sort ofstrict religious point of view and
That really changed his idea about me.
(31:26):
I don't think he'd even really thoughtabout religion I might be or whatever.
Not something I talk about a lot.
I did write about it in The Age ofReason but , it's not been one of my,
just appreciate everything that you'vedone and your opinions, you have so many
great ideas and there's one problem thatis certainly still looming in America
(31:51):
and that in your time and that is slaveryand I'm wondering what your thoughts are
on that or if you have maybe a solution?
Oh, I wish I had a solution.
Unfortunately, the way that theConstitution got written and wrote
out that whole part of the Americanexperience, because slavery had been
(32:13):
part of America well before since wellbefore the founding of Philadelphia
and back when New York was just a tinylittle place and Boston was fairly
large, but it was still, early.
And the important things hadn't, , interms of thinking about such things as
(32:38):
religion and, , what sort of governmentwe ought to have that . It hadn't
happened yet, , had it been possible to
change the whole notion ofkeeping people in, in bondage.
You might be aware that among others,there were some Quakers, but they . Were
originally from Germany, and theyweren't originally Quakers, . They were
(33:01):
Mennonites from Germany, and , some ofthem had become Quakers because Quakers
were what was big in Philadelphia atthe time, and in 1688, well before
I was born, they wrote up a treatisecalling for the abolition of slavery,
(33:23):
and remember this was a group ofMennonites who had become Quakers and
were connected to the, what Quakers calledthe monthly meeting up in the Germantown
part of Philadelphia, and they wanted.
The other Quakers around, tocall for the abolition of slavery.
(33:47):
And they presented it and apparently theQuaker meeting in Philadelphia said, Oh,
this is a very weighty topic and we'renot sure that we're prepared to handle it.
So, let's send it to the quarterlymeeting, which is the next step up in
terms of how the Quakers work which is aconglomeration of other monthly meetings
(34:10):
, and The quarterly meeting said, Oh, thisis a very weighty topic and we're not
sure we should try to deal with this.
And they sent it on to the yearlymeeting, which was the umbrella group
for the whole of the Quaker communityand in Pennsylvania and even in,
(34:30):
into parts of Maryland and Delaware.
And , a committee of the yearlymeeting , tried to deal with it.
And that's where it ended.
There was no action on it.
So , that particular episode was importantin some ways, but it did not arrive at any
sort of, , we Quakers should all becomeabolitionists and not have slaves anymore.
(34:56):
It's such a challenging topic.
Nobody really wants to.
To handle that fireball.
They just want to keep passing it down.
Well, that even happened with theconstitution itself, and the constitution
discusses people who were held inbondage when it's talking about the
number of, citizens that you can have.
(35:17):
In a certain area and, but there'snever any mention of slavery or black
people or slaveholders , it's all sortof hidden in plain sight, but not named.
You have this, the Constitution settingup a way of counting people that
(35:39):
includes people who are held in bondage,but they don't count as full people.
I believe it's three fifths,three fifths of a person.
I think hidden in plain sightis a perfect way to put that.
. If people aren't willing to talk aboutit , out loud it's not going to be very
successful, at least in the short term.
(36:00):
I have one more question for you and sir,thank you so much for your time today.
Oh,
my pleasure.
It's been very interesting to talk withsomebody from someplace else in some way
that I've never talked to anybody before.
Well, I am so thankful for you.
Your writings , they just are soincredible to read, even at this time.
My question is, so now the AmericanRevolution is complete, and the country
(36:26):
is establishing itself , how do you feelthe way things are being run right now?
. Well, I'm pleased that at thetime, Jefferson is president.
I think he's got a good head on hisshoulders, unfortunately, , despite
the fact that he had importantthings to say about the evils of
(36:47):
slavery when he was younger, heseems to be moving away from that.
And not really focused on, well, whatdo we do about the issue of slavery?
And he's not grappling with that.
Which
makes me feel very sad, andespecially I understand that, One of
(37:07):
his, , acquaintances who was , one ofWashington's important generals , , who
became quite excited about theidea of the abolition of slavery.
Finally got paid after years and years.
. For his service during the active partof the revolution, and he wanted to have
(37:31):
those funds to be put toward buying peoplewho were in slavery, and then providing
for them to be able to settle in Africa.
I'm not sure how good an ideathat is, but still, it was better
than having them still in bondage.
and he wanted Jefferson to carrythis out and gave the money to
(37:55):
Jefferson and Jefferson never did it.
So you're glad that Jefferson's runningthings, but at the same time, he's a
flawed person like the rest of us, right?
Well, of course., which is why Idon't like the idea of Kings , I'm
the king, so I know best, and sothe rest of you should follow me.
, and it's true for people at every level.
(38:16):
Yeah.
, I'm with you 100%.
So, tell me this, How wouldyou like people to see you
or view you in the future?
Well, I suppose it would be nice tobe thought of at least that I tried
my best to do what I thought was bestfor people in society and people who
(38:37):
are trying to find a way to live morepeaceably and honestly with each other.
Thank you.
And if people can capturethose ideas from what I wrote
about I think I would be happy.
I don't expect to live long enoughto have everybody doing that though.
(38:57):
Well, I think if you saw yourreputation in our time, I
think you'd be quite pleased.
Is there anything elsethat you'd like to add?
Well, , for some reason, non at theback of my head, is the fact that
I haven't brought up the subjectof poetry and singing, both of
which have been part of my life.
When I was in school, I was mostinterested in poetry and in science.
(39:24):
Once before I guess I was in school,I was about seven or eight and I was
wandering around just entertainingmyself in the fields around our small
town of Thetford, and I came acrossa bird , who clearly was not well.
And I tried to help the bird, , regainhis strength , but it was too late.
(39:50):
And so he died and I picked himup and held him in my hand and
thought, well, this is a life andwhat do we do when someone when
their life ends what do we do?
And because of my mother, especially,I thought about, well, , you have a.
funeral, and you sing a hymn, andperhaps you say a prayer, my mother
(40:16):
did all of those things and I thought,well, all right, so what could I sing?
And I thought about it for a bit,and I began to, I remembered a tune
from one of the times, mostly I wentwith my father to the Quaker meeting
but sometimes I went with her.
To the Anglican church and I sang hymns.
(40:39):
I thought, Oh, well, I should have a hymn.
So I looked down at the bird.
It was a crow and I said,or sang here lies the body.
I was a lad.
Here lies the body of John Crow,who once was high, but now is low.
Ye brother crows take ward in all,for as ye rise, so must ye fall.
(41:05):
And then I dug a little hole andput him in it and had a silent
prayer in my head about him.
And, that was that.
Now later during the beginnings of theAmerican revolution, I was inspired to
write a poem, which actually turned outto be a song because I knew a tune that,
(41:27):
that would go with the poem that I wrote.
And I won't try to sing that for youright now, but to say that it's not
exactly great poetry, but it gets atthe point about the liberty tree and
the goddess of liberty descending fromwherever the goddess of liberty descends
from and platen this plant that shenames the liberty tree and people all
(41:55):
gather around the liberty tree and.
And it's kind of a symbol of libertyand justice and those sorts of things.
Singing in taverns was oneof my favorite pastimes.
So, not necessarily as gentlea song as the crow song.
You were always writing, whether itwas poetry or whether it was one of
(42:17):
these pamphlets that moved the world.
You were always writing and alwaysgetting your word out, weren't you?,
Or having arguments intaverns, which I also enjoyed.
But in fact, for a while, , whenI was in Lewis which is a town in
the south of England, there was aclub called the Headstrong Club.
And we would have debates, you might callthem, arguments, but public arguments.
(42:40):
And , you might find it interestingor not surprising, perhaps that
fairly often I've won the debate.
So I became.
The the winner of theheadstrong competitions.
Well, I will tell you that I'mglad that you did win those
debates because the truth is, yourideas were better and , they were
(43:06):
Maybe that's why you wonbecause your ideas were better.
Mr.
Payne I thank you somuch for your time today.
And I wish you the bestin the coming years.
Thank you very much, sir.
I appreciate your doingwhatever magic you did to
Of course you won thosedebates in the taverns.
First of all, he was able tospeak in a way that people could
(43:29):
understand and he was persuasive.
Second of all, ThomasPaine was a good man.
He wasn't writing to get rich.
His plan was to use those fundsto buy mittens for the soldiers.
He wasn't trying to holdsomeone down just the opposite.
He was trying to help peoplerise from underneath the tyranny
of dictators in monarchs.
(43:49):
He wanted people to think forthemselves and make choices.
About what they wanted to do withtheir lives, whether they were free
or enslaved Thomas Paine's lifewas the definition of Liberty yet.
Despite pain's enormous contribution.
That is so obvious.
Now, six people attended his funeral.
All the big wigs that he'd beenhobnobbing with throughout his
(44:11):
life, distanced themselves from himbecause of his controversial writings
on religion that flew in the faceof what everybody else believed.
A few years before he died.
John Adams wrote this.
I could excuse everythingto him, but his impedance.
His common sense, which gave the firstimpression to this country in favor of
(44:34):
independence was short, clear, and strong.
But he was no politician.
He knew not the union ofindependence with government.
He was as bad a reasoner . Ashe was a good writer.
He was wholly destitute of judgmentand sometimes of common sense.
Thomas Paine's obituary stated . He hadlived along, did some good and much harm.
(44:58):
Yet as time passes history always looksclear in the review mirror, and it's
hard to imagine what might not havehappened without his words to unite
the people and inspire the soldiers.
As they say, the pen is morepowerful than the sword.
But.
It may be in this case that without thepen, maybe there would've been no sword.
(45:18):
Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that when you tell afriend about the calling history podcast.
Uh, goldfish realizes it'sactually a shark in disguise.
I'm Tony Dean.
And until next time I'm history.
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