February 19, 2025 • 50 mins
On April 22, 1616, William Shakespeare was at his home in Stratford when he received a call from the future…
In this episode, Shakespeare will talk about drinking ale and eating cake. He’ll explain why his wife got the second-best bed in his will. And he’ll tell us how he was able to compete with bears fighting dogs next door.
Start the episode now to join the conversation.
-----
How is it that after all these years that William Shakespeare and his words still impact us. It would be a monumental task to channel all that brilliance allowing us to have this conversation with the Bard of Avon. Thank you, Austin Tichenor, for making this extraordinary experience possible.
Austin is the co-artistic director of the Reduced Shakespeare Company; a writing and acting coach at The Shakespeareance; the co-author of ten stage comedies, including William Shakespeare’s Long Lost First Play (abridged) and The Comedy of Hamlet! (a prequel); the co-creator of the illustrated children’s books Pop-Up Shakespeare and Daisy, the Littlest Zombie; a contributor to The Palgrave Encyclopedia of Global Shakespeare and Shakespearean Biofiction on the Contemporary Stage and Screen (from Arden Shakespeare); and the host of the world’s oldest and longest-running theater podcast, the Reduced Shakespeare Company Podcast. He can be reached at theshakespeareance.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
I'm Tony Dean, and today we'll be callinghistory to speak with William Shakespeare.
He'll be answering ourcall on April 22nd, 1616.
Tomorrow, he will die in themost Shakespearean way possible,
which is on his 52nd birthday.
If you've ever found yourselfin a pickle, thank Shakespeare.
Because that phrase came froma play called The Tempest.
(00:50):
If you've ever suggested to a friendthat there might be too much of a good
thing, you are quoting Shakespearefrom his play as you like it.
If you've ever taken care of thingsin one fell swoop, started a joke
with, knock knock, who's there?
Or been fed up with something as yougrowl and say, what's done is done.
All these are quotes from Macbeth.
(01:11):
Shakespeare was a master of usingwords and phrases to transport his
audience back in time to experiencehistory or far away mystical lands.
He knew that he was good at it,and he put his heart and soul into
it, sacrificing everything, evenhis family, to make a living while
producing plays that would captivateaudiences and put butts in seats.
(01:34):
Despite living through a time whenthe plague was always a concern.
His great talent rose during thegolden age of Queen Elizabeth's reign,
a relatively peaceful time where thearts were vigorously supported by the
Queen and then the King that followed.
His unmatched talent and ambition were inthe right place at the exact right time,
(01:56):
and because of that, his words and hisstories will forever be an inspiration for
writers and actors and entertainment forthose wishing to experience storytelling
and language at the highest level.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow historylovers, and players everywhere,
I give you William Shakespeare.
(02:17):
Hello.
Is that you, Mr. Shakespeare?
hello?
Yes.
Will Shakespeare here.
Yes, sir. I am so excitedto speak with you today.
My name is Tony Dean, and I'm talking toyou from the future in the 21st century.
That device that you're holding inyour hand is called a smartphone.
And it allows us to speak as ifyou and I were sitting next to
(02:38):
each other in the globe theater.
And it also allows me to sharea record of our conversation
with people around the world.
And sir, I was hoping I couldask you some questions today,
but before I do, I understandthat this is an odd introduction.
Are there any questions thatI can answer for you first?
The,
God's wounds.
(02:58):
Well met, Master Dean.
brave new world that has such gadgets int.
you know, in our time it's, it'sinteresting that you would say that there
are nothing but gadgets in our time.
There are so many gadgets youcan't even keep track of them.
Well, and I think you'veinspired me already.
I, I, maybe you know this, maybe thisis why you are speaking with me, but
(03:23):
I invented many words, and I thinkI might have, this device might have
inspired me to invent the word gadget.
Well, if gadget is not a word in yourtime, then I'm just gonna put that
down on your list of words because.
That is certainly a good one.
What, what is the dealwith all of these words?
Anyhow, I was doing some researchand looking up words that you
(03:44):
created and nobody knows how manywords you're responsible for.
Some people say thatthere are 1700 new words.
Some people say there are3000 that you've added.
, where does this come from?
Are you just laying around andyou're like, you know, I need a
different way to describe that.
How does that work for you?
Well, I'm a wordsmith.
, it is my life.
I live for creating language,creating characters.
(04:08):
And also , You may not know this, but Iam a poet, and sometimes a dramatic poet,
where I put words into the mouths ofcharacters who appear on stage in stories.
And I wrote many, many plays.
I had to give themsomething to say, didn't I?
So I had to come up with quite a fewwords, and some I just played with,
(04:31):
because that is one of the joys ofwhat I do, playing with language.
Changing a noun into a verb, for instance.
Is there an example ofthat that comes to mind?
Well, it's, it's aprosaic word, a blanket.
, it's the piece of material thatcovers us when we are cold.
(04:52):
Well, I used it to describe thesky as, as a verb, how the, , how
the sky , blankets us all.
It, with that sort of Usage.
The good news about not havinga university education is that
I haven't been ever taught whatwas right and what was wrong.
So I just do it the way I like it.
(05:14):
What is your education, by the way?
And, in your time, are , the theplaywrights of your time, are they
educated people, where you're not?
By
Well, there's, we all have a basiceducation when we are children, we
learn Latin, we learn Greek, we learnthe ancient myths and the great stories
(05:35):
and the great historical characters.
then it is time for a young manto go off and earn a living.
And that's what I had todo in Stratford upon Avon.
, greater men of means thanI are able to go off to.
Cambridge or Oxford and receive a moreexpanded and traditional education.
(05:56):
But that was not for me.
I had to, I had to go to work.
And as a relatively young man, Ihad children that I had to feed.
So that was not anopportunity afforded to me.
I'm not sure what to call you.
Do people call you Mr. Shakespeare?
Do they call you William?
What do they call you?
Well, my friends call me Will.
(06:17):
I mean, I know we've justmet, but can I call you?
Will?
Please may I give you theformal appellation, Antonio?
I've created many characters,Antonio, in my plays.
Yeah, I would feel betterif you called me Antonio.
Oh, all right.
Very good.
That sounds great.
So when you were talking about havingto go to work right away, I'm a
(06:38):
little confused on that in your time,doesn't everybody have to go to work?
I mean, I'm sure there are people thatwere born with all kinds of money,
but isn't everybody going to work?
Well, absolutely.
Again, except for those gentlemenof means , whose fathers have
fortune sufficient enough.
To allow them to pursue , a greatereducation or a life of leisure.
(07:01):
There are gentlemen of plenty , inLondon living off their father's
large s, but the, for those of usfrom Warwickshire and elsewhere
in England, we have to go to work.
My, my father was many things . myFather was a glove maker, but
he dabbled in, in other things.
He tasted ale.
(07:22):
He was a bailiff in Stratfordso a man of some importance.
But his dreams for the Shakespearefamily exceeded his abilities.
I was his apprentice for several years.
I was a glover myself.
It's, it's why I use the language of glovemaking so much in my poems and my plays.
(07:44):
You talk about makinggloves in your plays a lot.
Again, this is me playing with language.
I don't talk about glove makingas much as I make reference to
the materials that I would use.
A shovel, for instance,which is a kind of goatskin.
That sort of thing.
I see.
Okay.
That makes more sense.
(08:05):
Your father, by the way,what kind of guy was he?
Was he a good guy?
Silence.
Silence.
(08:31):
So he had a drinking problem.
He was a stern man, but hewas a, he was a loving man.
And I was proud to be his son.
I'm so proud to be in his son.
In fact, that Oh, close about 10years ago, I was able to secure.
A coat of arms granted to me by QueenElizabeth herself, the Shakespeare
coat of arms, which is something myfather applied for but never received.
(08:55):
But my small reputation as apoet and a dramatic poet was such
Okay.
(09:28):
in polite society.
But, I had achieved a quite ameasure of my own success, and I
hope it reflected well on my father.
Alright, you just said a wholebunch of things I gotta clear up.
So the first one is, and this is probablythe most important one, and that is,
your father being good at tasting theale, did he pass those skills on to you?
(09:50):
Ha ha ha ha ha.
I do love both cakes and ale, like mycharacter Sir Toby Belch in Twelfth Night.
Did you say cakes?
Cakes and ale, yes.
Are those two things you eat together?
Of course!
! ! you eat them together, sometimes youeat them separately, but they are
delicious and lovely and enjoyable,and the very things that the Puritans,
(10:13):
like my character Malvolio inNight, Wish that we would eliminate.
Oh, the Puritans want toget rid of the cake and ale.
Yes,
are your feelings on the Puritans?
. Well, . My feelings for thePuritans officially are complicated.
Unofficially, personally, I loathe them.
them because they are againsteverything that I stand for.
(10:39):
I celebrate life in all its complexity.
I celebrate language and Icelebrate the art of play acting
as a way of revealing truth.
By pretending.
To be someone other than you're not.
The Puritans think that play acting isa form of lying, but I disagree wholly
(11:02):
Even if you were doing exactlywhat the Puritans wanted you to
do, they wouldn't be happy though.
Oh, the Puritans want to shutdown the playhouses completely.
, so, I would not beallowed to do what I do.
(11:26):
between the Protestants and the Catholics.
And you always had to be very, verycareful about you observed your own
relationship to your God, dependingwho was sitting on the throne.
You could be persecutedand even locked up.
And sometimes burned at the stakefor practicing your religion.
(11:50):
So we had to be very careful.
I was very lucky that I wasable to navigate those worrisome
straights sometimes betterthan my fellow playwrights.
I want to go back for aminute to the coat of arms.
I didn't realize this was notsomething that, that anybody could do.
And your father wasobviously trying to get this.
(12:12):
Was he denied?
And then once your work became popular,all of a sudden you were able to do that?
Is that how it works?
, yes, I do think it was mypopularity, but a coat, a coat of
arms reflects a family's prestigeand longevity here in this country.
I came by a certain legitimacy throughmy mother, Mary Arden, who is a
(12:36):
descendant of the great Arden family,whose ancestors were mentioned in
the Doomsday Book 600 years ago, inthe time of William the Conqueror.
And indeed, the Forest of Arden, whichI memorialized in my play, As You Like
It, is Named after my mother's family.
(12:56):
So I had a legitimacy through mymother my father did not have.
I also had a certain amountof fame and respectability
due to my poetry and my plays.
What is the doomsday book?
This does not sound like a,comforting story to read.
Well, I'm surprised, MasterAntonio, you are familiar with
(13:19):
me, but not the Domesday book.
The Domesday book is spelled Domesday,D O M E S, but pronounced Doomsday.
It's a, it's a sort of a census.
It's a record of all of the landholdersand resources during the time of
William It's a record of all of thelandholders and resources, during
the time of William the Conqueror.
Well, some 600 years ago it was agreat record, but it also establishes,
(13:45):
which Englishmen were already herewhen William came over from France.
So this is just simply a record ofpeople that had passed through that land.
Well, it's a record of thepeople who were already here.
I think William, theconqueror wanted to know.
How much he had actually conquered.
(14:05):
. Okay.
So let's go back to you would use theword players a little bit ago you referred
to yourself, I think, as a player.
I don't know what a player is.
Well, a player is an actor.
Obviously an actor who strutsand frets his hour upon the stage.
An actor who plays roleswe're called players.
And I began as a player.
(14:25):
I'm a, well, I'm a man of the theater.
In every way.
I've, I've probably done everyjob there is in the theater.
It's why I'm able to create theplays that I create, because , I
know how plays should be acted.
I know what fun it is to say theselines, to, to have these rich words
(14:48):
forming in my mouth and putting them outon a stage for an audience of people.
Okay.
So a player and actor, thosetwo words are interchangeable.
Yes.
I see.
Okay.
So , your plays in our time,they are taught in schools.
I mean, Yes.
(15:08):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, in your time when somebodytalks about doing a play by William
Shakespeare, they're talking aboutdoing something at the highest
level , of the English language.
Now you have me afraid that myplays are as ancient and loathed
by students as I loath the LatinI had to learn in my school.
(15:31):
Please tell me that's not so.
That is definitely not the case.
Oh.
I promise you that people enjoyyour work much more than you or
anybody enjoys learning Latin.
. When I think of your plays, it seems likeyou handle some very complex issues like
love, jealousy, and power, and lust, , anddeath, and, and then of course there's
(15:54):
all of the, the mystical stuff, youknow, witches and, and things like that.
. I'm wondering wheresome of that comes from.
And I'm wondering if that has allof that has something to do with the
fact that you are in the middle orwere in the middle of the plague.
Are you, are you guys dealingwith the plague right now?
What does that look like in your time?
Well, the plague has been aconstant presence in my life.
(16:17):
I was born in 1564, a year in whichplague swept across and in fact
killed a large percentage of the inmy hometown of Stratford upon Avon.
it then returned and returnedthroughout my entire professional
career, starting, suppose, from thelate 1580s to the present day of 1616.
(16:39):
I was always writing.
either during a plague, in the wake ofone plague, or in fearful anticipation
of the next, and it's one thingto write the words down on a page.
I can do that , whether I'min London or I'm in Stratford.
(17:01):
, for a dramatic poet and a player, thesewords mean nothing until they are spoken
by players on a stage in front of people.
And because of the plague, theplayhouses were forced to close.
So, was not just an inestimablefinancial loss when I was not able
(17:22):
to put plays on in front of people,but a great loss to my soul because
I don't want my words to be read.
I want them to be spoken aloud on a stagewhere the audience can receive them and
take their own meaning away from them.
(17:42):
. From my understanding, there'sno original work that has
survived into our time of yours.
And was that intentional?
Are you intentionally not writingthings down with the intention
of publishing them because they'remeant to be spoken, not read?
Well, I did write them all downand many of them were transcribed
(18:03):
into different versions, butwould never publish something as
inconsequential as a play in book form.
, we have small quartos ofvarious and sundry of my plays.
But for instance, just this year, my,my colleague and sometime rival Ben
Johnson , is producing a folio of allhis plays in one grand volume of folio.
(18:31):
is that sort ofgrandiosity fit for a play?
I don't think so.
No that said, I do wish that I could.
Turn to , my shelves, my ownshelves here in Stratford and pull
down a copy of one of my plays.
But I can't because many of them,unfortunately, were lost in a fire.
(18:56):
My handwritten versions of these playswere lost when the globe burnt down.
Oh, some three odd years ago.
It was an inestimable loss.
So I'm, I'm glad that.
Some of my plays, at least,have survived into your time.
Oh, most definitely, andit was because others use.
(19:17):
Either copy down your work.
I guess I'm not sure about that.
They copied down your work or theycollected it and then did put it into what
you would call a folio into book form,but nothing original with your hand on it.
if some of my plays have survived inpublished form, I'm almost positive it
would be through the good efforts of mycolleagues John Hemmings and Henry Konzel.
(19:40):
I have left them a small token in mywill that, I hope encourages them to keep
my memory alive, however they are able.
And it sounds to me from what youare saying is if they managed to
accomplish what I'm hoping they will do.
. Well, maybe that iswhere it came from then.
Oh fantastic.
(20:01):
I'm so glad to hear that.
You just brought up your will,and in your will, it is well known
in our time that you had leftyour wife your second best bed.
Well, of
What is all of that about?
Well, first of all, you knowmy, the contents of my will?
(20:25):
Of course, yes!
I mean, again, in our time,you're as famous as anybody.
, so yes, we know the contents of your will.
And everybody is wondering, whynot give her the first best bed?
Well, the first best bedis reserved for guests.
Obviously, everybody knows that.
, the second best bed is our marital
Oh!
course I'm going to leave.
(20:46):
I can't believe there'sconfusion about this.
Of course I'm going to leavemy second best bed to Anne.
She knows, she's in the next, Anne!
Anne, you, You know that thesecond best bed is our marital bed!
That's the one you want, right?
Yes, yes, she's saying right.
I hope you can, I hope you can hear her.
She's
(21:06):
So she,
Thank you, darling.
So she knows that the second best betthat when she reads that in your will,
she's not going to take that as a slight.
She's going to say, well, of coursehe'd give me our marriage bed.
And we want to leave our first bed to ourdaughter Susanna and her husband John.
Oh, I
we give to them as part of therest of Our goods and chattels.
(21:29):
, there's a lot of people that are goingto be really glad to hear this because
, people think that you maybe didn't even.
You and your wife didn't getalong very well, because this
was the last and final slight.
Oh, I loved Anne, and Ilike to think she loved me.
Right?
You love Okay, yes, she's nodding.
But!
We're gonna have to bring her in the room.
(21:49):
Oh!
Then I won't be able toget a word in edgewise.
Yeah, what is Anne like, by the way?
Your wife is Anne Hathaway, correct?
Okay.
(22:12):
from Anne, away from Stratford,away from my children.
is time I regret.
It's the loss of company , of mychildren and my wife, I regret.
But there was no living to be made asa poet or a playwright in Stratford.
I had to go where theopportunities were, in London.
(22:32):
So Ann and I love each other deeply,but that's not to say , there
weren't difficulties along the way.
. I'm listening carefully to your tone andtrying to read between the lines here.
And when you're saying complicated, Iam hearing that there are maybe other
relationships you had outside of yourmarriage that we're whispering about.
(22:54):
Is that what you're saying?
, I'm not proud of it, but yes, I wasparticularly in my early days in London.
I was in my late teens and myearly twenties when I first went
to London, I was a new father.
And was and remains several yearsolder than I, and I, was involved.
(23:17):
What can I tell you?
I'm a player.
I , I moved around the theatercommunity and I had to navigate
amongst various patrons, people,lords, and ladies who wanted.
Attention, dare I say affection, from me.
It was a complicated time, I haveno regrets, but are some things I
(23:43):
might have chosen to do differently.
That sounds very Shakespearean.
I have no regrets, but there are somethings that I would have done differently.
I'm a man of nuance,
So did Anne find,
, or perhaps needle threading,
okay, so did Anne find out aboutany of these we'll call them
(24:04):
indiscretions, and did that, is thatwhere the complications came from?
almost assuredly.
I'd have to hand this gadget over toher, and you'd have to talk to her.
Completely.
But don't bring it up.
. The older one gets, themore perspective one gains.
, I'm an old man of 51 now.
In fact, my birthday istomorrow, April 23rd, 1616.
(24:29):
And I you've probably heard me.
sneezing during this conversation.
I have a small fever from,which I'm sure I will recover.
It would be a dramatic irony worthyof well worthy of me if this fever
were to kill me on my birthdaytomorrow on my 52nd birthday.
(24:50):
Well, I'm sure that won't happen.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
(25:12):
Okay.
in The Tempest.
Pericles who loses his, hisdaughter and gains her at the end.
, Leontes in the Winter's Tale, whohonestly, I'm surprised any audiences
ever forgive him for the thingsthat he's done, even King Lear.
For instance, comes to regret, the folly of his actions.
(25:37):
He was trying to do somethinggood, but it led to not only the
disillusion of his family, but thedisillusion of his entire kingdom.
Well, let's go back to the Winter's Tale.
What is the thing thatwas done in Winter's Tale?
I'm not familiar with this story.
Well, does one start with Leontes?
He is consumed by a powerful jealousy.
(25:59):
He's convinced that his wifeHermione , is having an affair
with his best friend Polixenes.
And so I send Polixenes off, , andI put my wife on trial for adultery.
She has a daughter in prison, andI move to have the daughter killed.
Also, our other son, Mamilius, dies.
(26:21):
Then, my wife Goes off and disappearsand is turned into a statue , but 17
years later, she miraculously recoversand Leontes sees the error of his ways.
Honestly, I'm amazed I got away with that.
Well, and this is dark, no question aboutthat, that is a lot, but that brings me
(26:43):
to a very specific play that I have to askyou about, and that is Titus Andronicus.
So , I think I'm saying that right.
Yes, you are.
Well done.
Okay, thank you.
My understanding is, is that in this playthat there is a scene where the, the main
character brings his enemies in and thenfeeds them a pie made of their children.
(27:08):
How's that not worse thanwhat you just described?
Well, you've got to give theaudience what they want the
audience comes to a play like TitusAndronicus, expecting great revenge.
it's no secret that I, I borrowed theplots of Thomas Kidd's Spanish tragedy
for so many of my plays, but TitusAndronicus was an early play of mine
(27:32):
that was capitalizing on their audience'sfondness for this sort of gory violence.
You forget that . The biggestcompetition our plays have for the
audience's attention and money bearbaiting pits almost right next door
(27:53):
here on the South Banks of London.
A bear baiting pit is, I, maybe youdon't know because hopefully it's a
sport that's been banished in your
I have no idea what bear bathing is.
Yeah, please tell me.
What is it?
Silence.
(28:15):
it.
And the people in the audiencewould scream in favor of
either the bear or the dogs.
And they would lay down wagerson the bear or the dogs.
And they had a financial interestin the outcome, really all they
wanted to see was the carnage ofanimals tearing each other apart.
(28:37):
This is what I'm competing with.
So when
Okay.
(29:08):
So they're getting the thingthey want, but they are forced
to confront their desire for it.
. So they really put bears andstake a bear in, this sounds like
the Colosseum in ancient Rome.
They just put bears in there and thenthey fight to the death and everybody's
cheering . Do they do this with people?
, do they have gladiators in your time?
(29:29):
No, they don't have gladiatorsas in ancient Rome, but , we
do have public executions where
our traitors are beheaded , and theworst of them , are drawn and quartered.
So , they are hung and before thehanging actually kills them completely,
they are dragged down, cut open,disemboweled, and then , their limbs
(29:52):
are tied to four horses who gallopoff in four different directions,
literally pulling the body apart.
This is a huge public spectacle anda great warning to would be traitors.
But occasionally they would do thisto people who were not treasonous
to the country or the queen or theking, just merely misguided or
(30:16):
had the bad fortune of falling onthe bad side of somebody in power.
So people are standing around and they'recheering as these people are being
drug across the ground disemboweled.
People are cheeringand excited about this.
Do they bring their kids?
Do they, do they dress up for it?
Oh, they do?
They do.
Some people enjoy it more than others.
(30:39):
, many folks are compelled tobe there to witness this.
, on the one hand, it's part of a civic dutybe there, but there are people for whom
this is what you might call entertainment.
What a time , my understanding is, isthat during your time, , they call this
time the Elizabethan era, because, , shewas alive for almost your entire life.
(31:03):
. And some people call this the golden age.
And but . There's so much death betweenthe plague and public executions.
And it seems like there's a lot ofgood, but there's a whole lot of bad.
I mean, there's just so much bad that.
You know, people are seeingthe dark side of life.
And so that creates the need for thisthis competition you have against
(31:24):
that in your plays to create somethingthat is so horrific that it just draws
their attention because there's deatheverywhere is, is that how it works?
Well, are you telling me thatall violence and carnage has
been erased from your time?
It sounds like a utopia,
Yeah, that's a, that's a good point.
, if the Elizabethan era was a golden age,it is because Elizabeth Godrestrassel
(31:48):
, she was a great patron of the arts.
she, her players to come andperform for her at Whitehall.
, and we were proud to do it.
Patronage from the Queen, and then ofcourse later from King James, essential
to our livelihood and reputations.
And it's why I was.
(32:08):
able to make the living I wasable to make and why I was able
to achieve such respectabilitythat I was granted a coat of arms.
patrons, clear that up for me.
, did she pay your salary?
Did , the people coming tosee the plays pay your salary?
How does that work?
, I earned my living from commissionsfor people will ask me to
(32:31):
write a sonnet for instance.
But mostly , I earn my.
Money from being a shareholderin the Globe Theater as well as
the Lord Chamberlain's men as wasin the days of Queen Elizabeth.
And now the king's men of player, perhapsyou don't know this, but players are
(32:51):
seen to be little better than prostitutesand could be arrested for vagrants.
, if they could not prove thatthey were under the largesse
and patronage of a nobleman.
so my original company was theLord Chamberlain's men, because
we were under the patronage ofthe, of the Lord Chamberlain.
And then when King James acceded tothe throne, he assumed our patronage.
(33:15):
And thus we changed ourname to the Kingsmen.
Although between you and me, , Ithink we missed an opportunity.
, we could, and should have calledourselves the James gang, which
I think has a nicer ring to it.
Don't you
I think that would have stuck.
It's too bad that thatopportunity was missed.
That would have been fantastic.
So since King James has taken over?
(33:37):
Has there been a big transition oris it business as usual for you?
afternoon.
I spoke earlier of my abilityto navigate the political winds.
And, and things were delicate whenKing James came to the throne, they
were delicate in different ways.
When Elizabeth was on the throne,because , she never had an air.
(33:59):
So there was a question about who would.
Assume the throne upon her death.
There was a lot of tensionin the country about that.
I wrote various plays describingthat kind of tension, but I would
set them safely in the past.
So that's how I got around talking about
(34:21):
to the graduating class theClass of to the Class of 2021!
to
Okay.
very
(34:42):
order of succession.
Who is a good guy in the play,and not my lead titular villain.
(35:05):
The other thing I, I was thrilled to beable to include in Macbeth is witches.
King James loves witches.
He wrote a book about them, in fact.
So , if I may be allowed to pat myselfon the back, very smart of me to write
a play involving witches for King James.
I did not realize this.
(35:25):
So you are in this constantstate between when Elizabeth is
Queen and King James is King.
You're in this constant state ofwriting something that first of all
gets the audience interested andexcited and pushes the boundaries of
what they think is possible, maybe.
(35:47):
And at the same time, you're tryingnot to offend the politicians and even
maybe pat them on the back or givethem something that they're comfortable
with or that they can relate to.
I want something that the audiences willlove because I only make my money when
(36:07):
enough audiences come to see my plays, the expression we use is, I don't know
whether that this expression has been,has come down to you, but, but I only make
my money . When we put butts in seats.
So I need to make sure that theplays are popular to the audience
and not offend the monarch.
(36:29):
I hope the monarch enjoys itas well, but really I want to
be careful that it doesn't.
Anger, the Monarch or someof the monarch's supporters.
So for instance, the later years ofQueen Elizabeth's reign, I wrote several
plays . I wrote Julius Caesar, when Iwrote Henry for instance, just a few
(36:51):
years before Queen Elizabeth died, Iincluded a lengthy speech about Salic law.
in all honesty, it stops the playcold, but it outlines the clear
legal reasons for why a kingshould be able to invade France.
(37:14):
It, it both
Silence.
way that I hoped I would get awaywith and it seems that I did.
(37:36):
Was there ever a time where one ofthe kings or queens or anybody, a
political figure asked you to writesomething to influence the masses
so that they could do something?
Okay.
(38:16):
which was a, a young writer's.
And I soon got out of it.
a scene in Richard II where RichardII reluctantly gives up his crown
in favor of Henry Bollenbrook,who later becomes King Henry IV.
It became known as the depositionscene and Richard, the second was
(38:39):
a very unpopular King and HenryBolingbroke was a very popular Lord
who had a distant claim on the crown.
I wrote it again so long ago, but itwas repurposed five or so years ago.
By the followers of the Earl
(39:21):
very, very hot water.
Many of us were questioned, but it
Silence.
(39:48):
We were very lucky.
the politicians the, the monarchs,they should just give you your money
and let you perform your work andstay out of it, because when they get
involved, things get messy, don't they?
Well, they do.
Yes.
No, let the artists do the art
well,
of artists, you had said a minute ago,and I feel you just kind of passed
right by this, but, you had saidthat And this is really confusing me
(40:11):
that players are seen at the levelof prostitutes or just above that.
How's that the case?
I thought that the Queen loved you and theKing loved you and they're your patrons.
How are they seeing you like prostitutes?
Unless prostitutes are their favorite.
to make a point.
We are a disreputable bunch.
We, we are are, areforced to look for work.
(40:35):
Many of us have other jobs, thoughwhat we crave is the opportunity.
perform and create.
We don't have the kind of steadywork that be tokens and solidity.
We're seen as suspect and, and we providean entertainment, which while looked down
(40:56):
upon by many is still embraced by many.
It is one of the wonders of the playhousethat Many different people from all
levels of society come and gather asone to form an audience in a playhouse.
It is one of the greatlevelers of our society.
(41:16):
And again, that's one of the reasons Ithink that people are so threatened by it.
, politicians, noblemen.
Many people want to keep the classesseparate and keep us fighting against
each other, lest we realize that ourreal enemies are the people above
(41:38):
us, putting their thumb down upon us.
Are there censors in your time?
Are there people that are watchingwhat you're writing and ? You have
to be very careful that you're, you'renot offending somebody, but at the
same time, you know, there's the bearbaiting and all that, it seems like
you can write all kinds of stuff.
What does that look like?
What does the censorshiplooking like in your time?
Well, we have to submit, , , theChamberlain's men, the King's men, have
(42:01):
to submit every play that we want toperform to the Master of the Revels.
The Master of the Revels works for theKing, or the Queen, and is the one who
determines whether a play is appropriateto be put on before the public.
So, I suppose, In my case, Iknow what I can get away with
(42:26):
and what I can't get away with.
So . I am able to get my plays approvedby the Master of the Revels because,
because ., I know what Master Tilneywill approve and what he won't.
And are there times where you would pressthe boundaries of what you thought you
could get away with and something wouldget through and you'd be surprised?
(42:47):
I would.
I wrote a what you might call asequel to Love's Labour's Lost
called Love's Labour's One.
Very clever of me, I thought.
Yes.
but it did, it did speak of royalty,even though it was French royalty.
I think it , spoke about royalty inrather too freewheeling a way, and that
was, that was not approved, not allowed.
(43:11):
I was able to take the best bitsfrom it and repurpose it into a
play called Much Ado About Nothing.
So I I learned my lesson
Do you have a favorite play?
, in our time, , people are inlove with Romeo and Juliet
and A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Those are
Do you have a favorite?
(43:32):
I credit the people in yourtime for recognizing quality.
Do you have a favorite?
Cymbeline?
I suppose, I suppose, speakingof my children, one of my
favorites would have to be Hamlet.
(43:54):
Which was written very soon after the lossof my own son, Hamnet, Hamnet, with an
N. But I was thinking, I was thinking ofthe relationship between a father and son
when I wrote Hamlet, for instance, which,which dwells on a son's obligation to his
father even . After the father has died.
(44:15):
But, If I were forced to choose,I would have to say my favorite
play, And I'm sure this is themost popular play in your time, The
favorite of all my plays is Cymbeline.
You've read that one, surely.
Yes, do you not know it?
I know, I know so many of them,but please tell me about Cymbeline.
(44:39):
I'm going to try to get my screen back.
Um, uh, I'm not sure if I can see it.
I'm going to try my screen Um, Iam not sure if my screen is back.
(44:59):
Uh, So uh, So
Who creeps into Imogen's bedroom andspies her as she's sleeping, looks
upon her naked body and recognizinga mole beneath her breast and it's
got, it's got another dead body onstage where the character's literally
(45:19):
talking to it, thinking it's asleep,and the final scene of Cymbeline
is one of the funniest comedies I'veever written, where revelation is
piled upon revelation upon revelation.
It's just an unending and theshow runs so much longer because
of all the audience laughing.
(45:40):
I'll bet you the Puritans were linedup in the front row for that show.
Oh, well, yes, was it.
, I believe the Master of the Revelsdelighted in it, but I, I feel
certain that he had as littleregard for the Puritans as I did.
I'm amazed at how much passesthrough the Master of the Revels.
(46:01):
I'm just, I'm trying to figure outwhat they wouldn't let through.
What would be something that they'dsay, yeah, no, that, we can't do that.
I mean, we can have bears anddogs and we can have people
looking at naked people sleeping.
I'm just saying we can.
Kill our children.
We can do everything.
But we can't do, what?
Well, we can't have actual women on stage.
(46:22):
That's one thing we cannot do.
, it's just not done.
Women can act and read plays privatehomes, , but we can't have them on stage.
So , all of my great femalecharacters, strong independent
women are all played by boys.
No women, that's the line that they draw.
Well, that's
(46:42):
So you can kill,
several lines that they draw.
One could not write a playabout assassinating a king.
For instance, I was able to writea play about assassinating Julius
Caesar, but that was, Set safelyin the past, and it was a play
about the folly of assassination.
(47:05):
So it was a warning to would be assassins.
That's one way in whichthat play got approved.
oh, see, I, I think this sounds to mecatering to the monarchs a little bit.
Because if the monarchs were watchingthat, they would say, oh, you see?
Don't even think about assassinating mebecause this is how things will turn out.
And it destroys Rome, if you'll remember.
(47:28):
So there are, it's not a thing one wants
So
I guess a lot of your stories are basedon something that has already happened.
I mean, you're talking Henry the sixthand , you were talking about King
Richard and Julius Caesar, of course.
Help.
, are you just repurposing old storiesand just applying them to something
(47:51):
that's happening in modern times?
Is that what you're doingwith a lot of your stories?
Constantly.
I am constantly repurposing stories.
I wrote so many plays, Ihad to grab plot lines and
characters from wherever I could.
Also, , I wanted the audience to be,at least in some aspect, familiar
with the stories I was telling.
(48:13):
That's why , I wanted to write somuch about the great English kings.
Not, not only were they worthysubject matter, but they were.
But also they were very, very popular.
mentioned my Henry the Sixth plays.
, the play so nice.
I wrote it thrice.
There are three parts to Henry the Sixth,which is one of the things I discovered.
(48:34):
It was one of my very early works.
The first play that I wrote aboutHenry VI turned out to be the
second play I would create , withinthe three plays of Henry VI.
They became so popular.
I was motivated by money.
I confess it.
I was motivated to writemore plays about Henry VI.
(48:57):
And they were so popular that I madequite a bit of money they made , not
only my fortune, but my reputation.
Let me ask you about yourfortune for a minute.
There's something that confuses meabout how good you are at making
money because, I mean, would yousay that you are savvy at business?
Oh, absolutely.
(49:17):
Very savvy.
Very savvy.
The art of making plays ismaking a living at making plays.
And that's what I was able to accomplish.
.It's no wonder people doubt if Shakespeare wrote his own plays.
I mean, actors are known forbeing terrible at business.
That's why they all haveagents or make no money at all.
That's why the term starving actorexists But Shakespeare was good at both
(49:41):
in the next episode We're gonna talkabout how he accidentally burned down the
Globe Theatre He's going to tell us whathe was doing between 1585 and 1592 during
what they call Shakespeare's lost years
and he's going to talk about spyingfor the queen, his relationships
with men, and on and on and on.
I'm glad that you'reenjoying this podcast.
(50:01):
And if you haven't yet, subscribenow, and we'll see you at the next
episode of the Calling History Podcastwith part two of William Shakespeare.
I'm Tony Dean, and today we'll be callinghistory to speak with William Shakespeare.
He'll be answering ourcall on April 22nd, 1616.
Tomorrow, he will die in themost Shakespearean way possible,
which is on his 52nd birthday.
If you've ever found yourselfin a pickle, thank Shakespeare.
Because that phrase came froma play called The Tempest.
(00:50):
If you've ever suggested to a friendthat there might be too much of a good
thing, you are quoting Shakespearefrom his play as you like it.
If you've ever taken care of thingsin one fell swoop, started a joke
with, knock knock, who's there?
Or been fed up with something as yougrowl and say, what's done is done.
All these are quotes from Macbeth.
(01:11):
Shakespeare was a master of usingwords and phrases to transport his
audience back in time to experiencehistory or far away mystical lands.
He knew that he was good at it,and he put his heart and soul into
it, sacrificing everything, evenhis family, to make a living while
producing plays that would captivateaudiences and put butts in seats.
(01:34):
Despite living through a time whenthe plague was always a concern.
His great talent rose during thegolden age of Queen Elizabeth's reign,
a relatively peaceful time where thearts were vigorously supported by the
Queen and then the King that followed.
His unmatched talent and ambition were inthe right place at the exact right time,
(01:56):
and because of that, his words and hisstories will forever be an inspiration for
writers and actors and entertainment forthose wishing to experience storytelling
and language at the highest level.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow historylovers, and players everywhere,
I give you William Shakespeare.
(02:17):
Hello.
Is that you, Mr. Shakespeare?
hello?
Yes.
Will Shakespeare here.
Yes, sir. I am so excitedto speak with you today.
My name is Tony Dean, and I'm talking toyou from the future in the 21st century.
That device that you're holding inyour hand is called a smartphone.
And it allows us to speak as ifyou and I were sitting next to
(02:38):
each other in the globe theater.
And it also allows me to sharea record of our conversation
with people around the world.
And sir, I was hoping I couldask you some questions today,
but before I do, I understandthat this is an odd introduction.
Are there any questions thatI can answer for you first?
The,
God's wounds.
(02:58):
Well met, Master Dean.
brave new world that has such gadgets int.
you know, in our time it's, it'sinteresting that you would say that there
are nothing but gadgets in our time.
There are so many gadgets youcan't even keep track of them.
Well, and I think you'veinspired me already.
I, I, maybe you know this, maybe thisis why you are speaking with me, but
(03:23):
I invented many words, and I thinkI might have, this device might have
inspired me to invent the word gadget.
Well, if gadget is not a word in yourtime, then I'm just gonna put that
down on your list of words because.
That is certainly a good one.
What, what is the dealwith all of these words?
Anyhow, I was doing some researchand looking up words that you
(03:44):
created and nobody knows how manywords you're responsible for.
Some people say thatthere are 1700 new words.
Some people say there are3000 that you've added.
, where does this come from?
Are you just laying around andyou're like, you know, I need a
different way to describe that.
How does that work for you?
Well, I'm a wordsmith.
, it is my life.
I live for creating language,creating characters.
(04:08):
And also , You may not know this, but Iam a poet, and sometimes a dramatic poet,
where I put words into the mouths ofcharacters who appear on stage in stories.
And I wrote many, many plays.
I had to give themsomething to say, didn't I?
So I had to come up with quite a fewwords, and some I just played with,
(04:31):
because that is one of the joys ofwhat I do, playing with language.
Changing a noun into a verb, for instance.
Is there an example ofthat that comes to mind?
Well, it's, it's aprosaic word, a blanket.
, it's the piece of material thatcovers us when we are cold.
(04:52):
Well, I used it to describe thesky as, as a verb, how the, , how
the sky , blankets us all.
It, with that sort of Usage.
The good news about not havinga university education is that
I haven't been ever taught whatwas right and what was wrong.
So I just do it the way I like it.
(05:14):
What is your education, by the way?
And, in your time, are , the theplaywrights of your time, are they
educated people, where you're not?
By
Well, there's, we all have a basiceducation when we are children, we
learn Latin, we learn Greek, we learnthe ancient myths and the great stories
(05:35):
and the great historical characters.
then it is time for a young manto go off and earn a living.
And that's what I had todo in Stratford upon Avon.
, greater men of means thanI are able to go off to.
Cambridge or Oxford and receive a moreexpanded and traditional education.
(05:56):
But that was not for me.
I had to, I had to go to work.
And as a relatively young man, Ihad children that I had to feed.
So that was not anopportunity afforded to me.
I'm not sure what to call you.
Do people call you Mr. Shakespeare?
Do they call you William?
What do they call you?
Well, my friends call me Will.
(06:17):
I mean, I know we've justmet, but can I call you?
Will?
Please may I give you theformal appellation, Antonio?
I've created many characters,Antonio, in my plays.
Yeah, I would feel betterif you called me Antonio.
Oh, all right.
Very good.
That sounds great.
So when you were talking about havingto go to work right away, I'm a
(06:38):
little confused on that in your time,doesn't everybody have to go to work?
I mean, I'm sure there are people thatwere born with all kinds of money,
but isn't everybody going to work?
Well, absolutely.
Again, except for those gentlemenof means , whose fathers have
fortune sufficient enough.
To allow them to pursue , a greatereducation or a life of leisure.
(07:01):
There are gentlemen of plenty , inLondon living off their father's
large s, but the, for those of usfrom Warwickshire and elsewhere
in England, we have to go to work.
My, my father was many things . myFather was a glove maker, but
he dabbled in, in other things.
He tasted ale.
(07:22):
He was a bailiff in Stratfordso a man of some importance.
But his dreams for the Shakespearefamily exceeded his abilities.
I was his apprentice for several years.
I was a glover myself.
It's, it's why I use the language of glovemaking so much in my poems and my plays.
(07:44):
You talk about makinggloves in your plays a lot.
Again, this is me playing with language.
I don't talk about glove makingas much as I make reference to
the materials that I would use.
A shovel, for instance,which is a kind of goatskin.
That sort of thing.
I see.
Okay.
That makes more sense.
(08:05):
Your father, by the way,what kind of guy was he?
Was he a good guy?
Silence.
Silence.
(08:31):
So he had a drinking problem.
He was a stern man, but hewas a, he was a loving man.
And I was proud to be his son.
I'm so proud to be in his son.
In fact, that Oh, close about 10years ago, I was able to secure.
A coat of arms granted to me by QueenElizabeth herself, the Shakespeare
coat of arms, which is something myfather applied for but never received.
(08:55):
But my small reputation as apoet and a dramatic poet was such
Okay.
(09:28):
in polite society.
But, I had achieved a quite ameasure of my own success, and I
hope it reflected well on my father.
Alright, you just said a wholebunch of things I gotta clear up.
So the first one is, and this is probablythe most important one, and that is,
your father being good at tasting theale, did he pass those skills on to you?
(09:50):
Ha ha ha ha ha.
I do love both cakes and ale, like mycharacter Sir Toby Belch in Twelfth Night.
Did you say cakes?
Cakes and ale, yes.
Are those two things you eat together?
Of course!
! ! you eat them together, sometimes youeat them separately, but they are
delicious and lovely and enjoyable,and the very things that the Puritans,
(10:13):
like my character Malvolio inNight, Wish that we would eliminate.
Oh, the Puritans want toget rid of the cake and ale.
Yes,
are your feelings on the Puritans?
. Well, . My feelings for thePuritans officially are complicated.
Unofficially, personally, I loathe them.
them because they are againsteverything that I stand for.
(10:39):
I celebrate life in all its complexity.
I celebrate language and Icelebrate the art of play acting
as a way of revealing truth.
By pretending.
To be someone other than you're not.
The Puritans think that play acting isa form of lying, but I disagree wholly
(11:02):
Even if you were doing exactlywhat the Puritans wanted you to
do, they wouldn't be happy though.
Oh, the Puritans want to shutdown the playhouses completely.
, so, I would not beallowed to do what I do.
(11:26):
between the Protestants and the Catholics.
And you always had to be very, verycareful about you observed your own
relationship to your God, dependingwho was sitting on the throne.
You could be persecutedand even locked up.
And sometimes burned at the stakefor practicing your religion.
(11:50):
So we had to be very careful.
I was very lucky that I wasable to navigate those worrisome
straights sometimes betterthan my fellow playwrights.
I want to go back for aminute to the coat of arms.
I didn't realize this was notsomething that, that anybody could do.
And your father wasobviously trying to get this.
(12:12):
Was he denied?
And then once your work became popular,all of a sudden you were able to do that?
Is that how it works?
, yes, I do think it was mypopularity, but a coat, a coat of
arms reflects a family's prestigeand longevity here in this country.
I came by a certain legitimacy throughmy mother, Mary Arden, who is a
(12:36):
descendant of the great Arden family,whose ancestors were mentioned in
the Doomsday Book 600 years ago, inthe time of William the Conqueror.
And indeed, the Forest of Arden, whichI memorialized in my play, As You Like
It, is Named after my mother's family.
(12:56):
So I had a legitimacy through mymother my father did not have.
I also had a certain amountof fame and respectability
due to my poetry and my plays.
What is the doomsday book?
This does not sound like a,comforting story to read.
Well, I'm surprised, MasterAntonio, you are familiar with
(13:19):
me, but not the Domesday book.
The Domesday book is spelled Domesday,D O M E S, but pronounced Doomsday.
It's a, it's a sort of a census.
It's a record of all of the landholdersand resources during the time of
William It's a record of all of thelandholders and resources, during
the time of William the Conqueror.
Well, some 600 years ago it was agreat record, but it also establishes,
(13:45):
which Englishmen were already herewhen William came over from France.
So this is just simply a record ofpeople that had passed through that land.
Well, it's a record of thepeople who were already here.
I think William, theconqueror wanted to know.
How much he had actually conquered.
(14:05):
. Okay.
So let's go back to you would use theword players a little bit ago you referred
to yourself, I think, as a player.
I don't know what a player is.
Well, a player is an actor.
Obviously an actor who strutsand frets his hour upon the stage.
An actor who plays roleswe're called players.
And I began as a player.
(14:25):
I'm a, well, I'm a man of the theater.
In every way.
I've, I've probably done everyjob there is in the theater.
It's why I'm able to create theplays that I create, because , I
know how plays should be acted.
I know what fun it is to say theselines, to, to have these rich words
(14:48):
forming in my mouth and putting them outon a stage for an audience of people.
Okay.
So a player and actor, thosetwo words are interchangeable.
Yes.
I see.
Okay.
So , your plays in our time,they are taught in schools.
I mean, Yes.
(15:08):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, in your time when somebodytalks about doing a play by William
Shakespeare, they're talking aboutdoing something at the highest
level , of the English language.
Now you have me afraid that myplays are as ancient and loathed
by students as I loath the LatinI had to learn in my school.
(15:31):
Please tell me that's not so.
That is definitely not the case.
Oh.
I promise you that people enjoyyour work much more than you or
anybody enjoys learning Latin.
. When I think of your plays, it seems likeyou handle some very complex issues like
love, jealousy, and power, and lust, , anddeath, and, and then of course there's
(15:54):
all of the, the mystical stuff, youknow, witches and, and things like that.
. I'm wondering wheresome of that comes from.
And I'm wondering if that has allof that has something to do with the
fact that you are in the middle orwere in the middle of the plague.
Are you, are you guys dealingwith the plague right now?
What does that look like in your time?
Well, the plague has been aconstant presence in my life.
(16:17):
I was born in 1564, a year in whichplague swept across and in fact
killed a large percentage of the inmy hometown of Stratford upon Avon.
it then returned and returnedthroughout my entire professional
career, starting, suppose, from thelate 1580s to the present day of 1616.
(16:39):
I was always writing.
either during a plague, in the wake ofone plague, or in fearful anticipation
of the next, and it's one thingto write the words down on a page.
I can do that , whether I'min London or I'm in Stratford.
(17:01):
, for a dramatic poet and a player, thesewords mean nothing until they are spoken
by players on a stage in front of people.
And because of the plague, theplayhouses were forced to close.
So, was not just an inestimablefinancial loss when I was not able
(17:22):
to put plays on in front of people,but a great loss to my soul because
I don't want my words to be read.
I want them to be spoken aloud on a stagewhere the audience can receive them and
take their own meaning away from them.
(17:42):
. From my understanding, there'sno original work that has
survived into our time of yours.
And was that intentional?
Are you intentionally not writingthings down with the intention
of publishing them because they'remeant to be spoken, not read?
Well, I did write them all downand many of them were transcribed
(18:03):
into different versions, butwould never publish something as
inconsequential as a play in book form.
, we have small quartos ofvarious and sundry of my plays.
But for instance, just this year, my,my colleague and sometime rival Ben
Johnson , is producing a folio of allhis plays in one grand volume of folio.
(18:31):
is that sort ofgrandiosity fit for a play?
I don't think so.
No that said, I do wish that I could.
Turn to , my shelves, my ownshelves here in Stratford and pull
down a copy of one of my plays.
But I can't because many of them,unfortunately, were lost in a fire.
(18:56):
My handwritten versions of these playswere lost when the globe burnt down.
Oh, some three odd years ago.
It was an inestimable loss.
So I'm, I'm glad that.
Some of my plays, at least,have survived into your time.
Oh, most definitely, andit was because others use.
(19:17):
Either copy down your work.
I guess I'm not sure about that.
They copied down your work or theycollected it and then did put it into what
you would call a folio into book form,but nothing original with your hand on it.
if some of my plays have survived inpublished form, I'm almost positive it
would be through the good efforts of mycolleagues John Hemmings and Henry Konzel.
(19:40):
I have left them a small token in mywill that, I hope encourages them to keep
my memory alive, however they are able.
And it sounds to me from what youare saying is if they managed to
accomplish what I'm hoping they will do.
. Well, maybe that iswhere it came from then.
Oh fantastic.
(20:01):
I'm so glad to hear that.
You just brought up your will,and in your will, it is well known
in our time that you had leftyour wife your second best bed.
Well, of
What is all of that about?
Well, first of all, you knowmy, the contents of my will?
(20:25):
Of course, yes!
I mean, again, in our time,you're as famous as anybody.
, so yes, we know the contents of your will.
And everybody is wondering, whynot give her the first best bed?
Well, the first best bedis reserved for guests.
Obviously, everybody knows that.
, the second best bed is our marital
Oh!
course I'm going to leave.
(20:46):
I can't believe there'sconfusion about this.
Of course I'm going to leavemy second best bed to Anne.
She knows, she's in the next, Anne!
Anne, you, You know that thesecond best bed is our marital bed!
That's the one you want, right?
Yes, yes, she's saying right.
I hope you can, I hope you can hear her.
She's
(21:06):
So she,
Thank you, darling.
So she knows that the second best betthat when she reads that in your will,
she's not going to take that as a slight.
She's going to say, well, of coursehe'd give me our marriage bed.
And we want to leave our first bed to ourdaughter Susanna and her husband John.
Oh, I
we give to them as part of therest of Our goods and chattels.
(21:29):
, there's a lot of people that are goingto be really glad to hear this because
, people think that you maybe didn't even.
You and your wife didn't getalong very well, because this
was the last and final slight.
Oh, I loved Anne, and Ilike to think she loved me.
Right?
You love Okay, yes, she's nodding.
But!
We're gonna have to bring her in the room.
(21:49):
Oh!
Then I won't be able toget a word in edgewise.
Yeah, what is Anne like, by the way?
Your wife is Anne Hathaway, correct?
Okay.
(22:12):
from Anne, away from Stratford,away from my children.
is time I regret.
It's the loss of company , of mychildren and my wife, I regret.
But there was no living to be made asa poet or a playwright in Stratford.
I had to go where theopportunities were, in London.
(22:32):
So Ann and I love each other deeply,but that's not to say , there
weren't difficulties along the way.
. I'm listening carefully to your tone andtrying to read between the lines here.
And when you're saying complicated, Iam hearing that there are maybe other
relationships you had outside of yourmarriage that we're whispering about.
(22:54):
Is that what you're saying?
, I'm not proud of it, but yes, I wasparticularly in my early days in London.
I was in my late teens and myearly twenties when I first went
to London, I was a new father.
And was and remains several yearsolder than I, and I, was involved.
(23:17):
What can I tell you?
I'm a player.
I , I moved around the theatercommunity and I had to navigate
amongst various patrons, people,lords, and ladies who wanted.
Attention, dare I say affection, from me.
It was a complicated time, I haveno regrets, but are some things I
(23:43):
might have chosen to do differently.
That sounds very Shakespearean.
I have no regrets, but there are somethings that I would have done differently.
I'm a man of nuance,
So did Anne find,
, or perhaps needle threading,
okay, so did Anne find out aboutany of these we'll call them
(24:04):
indiscretions, and did that, is thatwhere the complications came from?
almost assuredly.
I'd have to hand this gadget over toher, and you'd have to talk to her.
Completely.
But don't bring it up.
. The older one gets, themore perspective one gains.
, I'm an old man of 51 now.
In fact, my birthday istomorrow, April 23rd, 1616.
(24:29):
And I you've probably heard me.
sneezing during this conversation.
I have a small fever from,which I'm sure I will recover.
It would be a dramatic irony worthyof well worthy of me if this fever
were to kill me on my birthdaytomorrow on my 52nd birthday.
(24:50):
Well, I'm sure that won't happen.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
(25:12):
Okay.
in The Tempest.
Pericles who loses his, hisdaughter and gains her at the end.
, Leontes in the Winter's Tale, whohonestly, I'm surprised any audiences
ever forgive him for the thingsthat he's done, even King Lear.
For instance, comes to regret, the folly of his actions.
(25:37):
He was trying to do somethinggood, but it led to not only the
disillusion of his family, but thedisillusion of his entire kingdom.
Well, let's go back to the Winter's Tale.
What is the thing thatwas done in Winter's Tale?
I'm not familiar with this story.
Well, does one start with Leontes?
He is consumed by a powerful jealousy.
(25:59):
He's convinced that his wifeHermione , is having an affair
with his best friend Polixenes.
And so I send Polixenes off, , andI put my wife on trial for adultery.
She has a daughter in prison, andI move to have the daughter killed.
Also, our other son, Mamilius, dies.
(26:21):
Then, my wife Goes off and disappearsand is turned into a statue , but 17
years later, she miraculously recoversand Leontes sees the error of his ways.
Honestly, I'm amazed I got away with that.
Well, and this is dark, no question aboutthat, that is a lot, but that brings me
(26:43):
to a very specific play that I have to askyou about, and that is Titus Andronicus.
So , I think I'm saying that right.
Yes, you are.
Well done.
Okay, thank you.
My understanding is, is that in this playthat there is a scene where the, the main
character brings his enemies in and thenfeeds them a pie made of their children.
(27:08):
How's that not worse thanwhat you just described?
Well, you've got to give theaudience what they want the
audience comes to a play like TitusAndronicus, expecting great revenge.
it's no secret that I, I borrowed theplots of Thomas Kidd's Spanish tragedy
for so many of my plays, but TitusAndronicus was an early play of mine
(27:32):
that was capitalizing on their audience'sfondness for this sort of gory violence.
You forget that . The biggestcompetition our plays have for the
audience's attention and money bearbaiting pits almost right next door
(27:53):
here on the South Banks of London.
A bear baiting pit is, I, maybe youdon't know because hopefully it's a
sport that's been banished in your
I have no idea what bear bathing is.
Yeah, please tell me.
What is it?
Silence.
(28:15):
it.
And the people in the audiencewould scream in favor of
either the bear or the dogs.
And they would lay down wagerson the bear or the dogs.
And they had a financial interestin the outcome, really all they
wanted to see was the carnage ofanimals tearing each other apart.
(28:37):
This is what I'm competing with.
So when
Okay.
(29:08):
So they're getting the thingthey want, but they are forced
to confront their desire for it.
. So they really put bears andstake a bear in, this sounds like
the Colosseum in ancient Rome.
They just put bears in there and thenthey fight to the death and everybody's
cheering . Do they do this with people?
, do they have gladiators in your time?
(29:29):
No, they don't have gladiatorsas in ancient Rome, but , we
do have public executions where
our traitors are beheaded , and theworst of them , are drawn and quartered.
So , they are hung and before thehanging actually kills them completely,
they are dragged down, cut open,disemboweled, and then , their limbs
(29:52):
are tied to four horses who gallopoff in four different directions,
literally pulling the body apart.
This is a huge public spectacle anda great warning to would be traitors.
But occasionally they would do thisto people who were not treasonous
to the country or the queen or theking, just merely misguided or
(30:16):
had the bad fortune of falling onthe bad side of somebody in power.
So people are standing around and they'recheering as these people are being
drug across the ground disemboweled.
People are cheeringand excited about this.
Do they bring their kids?
Do they, do they dress up for it?
Oh, they do?
They do.
Some people enjoy it more than others.
(30:39):
, many folks are compelled tobe there to witness this.
, on the one hand, it's part of a civic dutybe there, but there are people for whom
this is what you might call entertainment.
What a time , my understanding is, isthat during your time, , they call this
time the Elizabethan era, because, , shewas alive for almost your entire life.
(31:03):
. And some people call this the golden age.
And but . There's so much death betweenthe plague and public executions.
And it seems like there's a lot ofgood, but there's a whole lot of bad.
I mean, there's just so much bad that.
You know, people are seeingthe dark side of life.
And so that creates the need for thisthis competition you have against
(31:24):
that in your plays to create somethingthat is so horrific that it just draws
their attention because there's deatheverywhere is, is that how it works?
Well, are you telling me thatall violence and carnage has
been erased from your time?
It sounds like a utopia,
Yeah, that's a, that's a good point.
, if the Elizabethan era was a golden age,it is because Elizabeth Godrestrassel
(31:48):
, she was a great patron of the arts.
she, her players to come andperform for her at Whitehall.
, and we were proud to do it.
Patronage from the Queen, and then ofcourse later from King James, essential
to our livelihood and reputations.
And it's why I was.
(32:08):
able to make the living I wasable to make and why I was able
to achieve such respectabilitythat I was granted a coat of arms.
patrons, clear that up for me.
, did she pay your salary?
Did , the people coming tosee the plays pay your salary?
How does that work?
, I earned my living from commissionsfor people will ask me to
(32:31):
write a sonnet for instance.
But mostly , I earn my.
Money from being a shareholderin the Globe Theater as well as
the Lord Chamberlain's men as wasin the days of Queen Elizabeth.
And now the king's men of player, perhapsyou don't know this, but players are
(32:51):
seen to be little better than prostitutesand could be arrested for vagrants.
, if they could not prove thatthey were under the largesse
and patronage of a nobleman.
so my original company was theLord Chamberlain's men, because
we were under the patronage ofthe, of the Lord Chamberlain.
And then when King James acceded tothe throne, he assumed our patronage.
(33:15):
And thus we changed ourname to the Kingsmen.
Although between you and me, , Ithink we missed an opportunity.
, we could, and should have calledourselves the James gang, which
I think has a nicer ring to it.
Don't you
I think that would have stuck.
It's too bad that thatopportunity was missed.
That would have been fantastic.
So since King James has taken over?
(33:37):
Has there been a big transition oris it business as usual for you?
afternoon.
I spoke earlier of my abilityto navigate the political winds.
And, and things were delicate whenKing James came to the throne, they
were delicate in different ways.
When Elizabeth was on the throne,because , she never had an air.
(33:59):
So there was a question about who would.
Assume the throne upon her death.
There was a lot of tensionin the country about that.
I wrote various plays describingthat kind of tension, but I would
set them safely in the past.
So that's how I got around talking about
(34:21):
to the graduating class theClass of to the Class of 2021!
to
Okay.
very
(34:42):
order of succession.
Who is a good guy in the play,and not my lead titular villain.
(35:05):
The other thing I, I was thrilled to beable to include in Macbeth is witches.
King James loves witches.
He wrote a book about them, in fact.
So , if I may be allowed to pat myselfon the back, very smart of me to write
a play involving witches for King James.
I did not realize this.
(35:25):
So you are in this constantstate between when Elizabeth is
Queen and King James is King.
You're in this constant state ofwriting something that first of all
gets the audience interested andexcited and pushes the boundaries of
what they think is possible, maybe.
(35:47):
And at the same time, you're tryingnot to offend the politicians and even
maybe pat them on the back or givethem something that they're comfortable
with or that they can relate to.
I want something that the audiences willlove because I only make my money when
(36:07):
enough audiences come to see my plays, the expression we use is, I don't know
whether that this expression has been,has come down to you, but, but I only make
my money . When we put butts in seats.
So I need to make sure that theplays are popular to the audience
and not offend the monarch.
(36:29):
I hope the monarch enjoys itas well, but really I want to
be careful that it doesn't.
Anger, the Monarch or someof the monarch's supporters.
So for instance, the later years ofQueen Elizabeth's reign, I wrote several
plays . I wrote Julius Caesar, when Iwrote Henry for instance, just a few
(36:51):
years before Queen Elizabeth died, Iincluded a lengthy speech about Salic law.
in all honesty, it stops the playcold, but it outlines the clear
legal reasons for why a kingshould be able to invade France.
(37:14):
It, it both
Silence.
way that I hoped I would get awaywith and it seems that I did.
(37:36):
Was there ever a time where one ofthe kings or queens or anybody, a
political figure asked you to writesomething to influence the masses
so that they could do something?
Okay.
(38:16):
which was a, a young writer's.
And I soon got out of it.
a scene in Richard II where RichardII reluctantly gives up his crown
in favor of Henry Bollenbrook,who later becomes King Henry IV.
It became known as the depositionscene and Richard, the second was
(38:39):
a very unpopular King and HenryBolingbroke was a very popular Lord
who had a distant claim on the crown.
I wrote it again so long ago, but itwas repurposed five or so years ago.
By the followers of the Earl
(39:21):
very, very hot water.
Many of us were questioned, but it
Silence.
(39:48):
We were very lucky.
the politicians the, the monarchs,they should just give you your money
and let you perform your work andstay out of it, because when they get
involved, things get messy, don't they?
Well, they do.
Yes.
No, let the artists do the art
well,
of artists, you had said a minute ago,and I feel you just kind of passed
right by this, but, you had saidthat And this is really confusing me
(40:11):
that players are seen at the levelof prostitutes or just above that.
How's that the case?
I thought that the Queen loved you and theKing loved you and they're your patrons.
How are they seeing you like prostitutes?
Unless prostitutes are their favorite.
to make a point.
We are a disreputable bunch.
We, we are are, areforced to look for work.
(40:35):
Many of us have other jobs, thoughwhat we crave is the opportunity.
perform and create.
We don't have the kind of steadywork that be tokens and solidity.
We're seen as suspect and, and we providean entertainment, which while looked down
(40:56):
upon by many is still embraced by many.
It is one of the wonders of the playhousethat Many different people from all
levels of society come and gather asone to form an audience in a playhouse.
It is one of the greatlevelers of our society.
(41:16):
And again, that's one of the reasons Ithink that people are so threatened by it.
, politicians, noblemen.
Many people want to keep the classesseparate and keep us fighting against
each other, lest we realize that ourreal enemies are the people above
(41:38):
us, putting their thumb down upon us.
Are there censors in your time?
Are there people that are watchingwhat you're writing and ? You have
to be very careful that you're, you'renot offending somebody, but at the
same time, you know, there's the bearbaiting and all that, it seems like
you can write all kinds of stuff.
What does that look like?
What does the censorshiplooking like in your time?
Well, we have to submit, , , theChamberlain's men, the King's men, have
(42:01):
to submit every play that we want toperform to the Master of the Revels.
The Master of the Revels works for theKing, or the Queen, and is the one who
determines whether a play is appropriateto be put on before the public.
So, I suppose, In my case, Iknow what I can get away with
(42:26):
and what I can't get away with.
So . I am able to get my plays approvedby the Master of the Revels because,
because ., I know what Master Tilneywill approve and what he won't.
And are there times where you would pressthe boundaries of what you thought you
could get away with and something wouldget through and you'd be surprised?
(42:47):
I would.
I wrote a what you might call asequel to Love's Labour's Lost
called Love's Labour's One.
Very clever of me, I thought.
Yes.
but it did, it did speak of royalty,even though it was French royalty.
I think it , spoke about royalty inrather too freewheeling a way, and that
was, that was not approved, not allowed.
(43:11):
I was able to take the best bitsfrom it and repurpose it into a
play called Much Ado About Nothing.
So I I learned my lesson
Do you have a favorite play?
, in our time, , people are inlove with Romeo and Juliet
and A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Those are
Do you have a favorite?
(43:32):
I credit the people in yourtime for recognizing quality.
Do you have a favorite?
Cymbeline?
I suppose, I suppose, speakingof my children, one of my
favorites would have to be Hamlet.
(43:54):
Which was written very soon after the lossof my own son, Hamnet, Hamnet, with an
N. But I was thinking, I was thinking ofthe relationship between a father and son
when I wrote Hamlet, for instance, which,which dwells on a son's obligation to his
father even . After the father has died.
(44:15):
But, If I were forced to choose,I would have to say my favorite
play, And I'm sure this is themost popular play in your time, The
favorite of all my plays is Cymbeline.
You've read that one, surely.
Yes, do you not know it?
I know, I know so many of them,but please tell me about Cymbeline.
(44:39):
I'm going to try to get my screen back.
Um, uh, I'm not sure if I can see it.
I'm going to try my screen Um, Iam not sure if my screen is back.
(44:59):
Uh, So uh, So
Who creeps into Imogen's bedroom andspies her as she's sleeping, looks
upon her naked body and recognizinga mole beneath her breast and it's
got, it's got another dead body onstage where the character's literally
(45:19):
talking to it, thinking it's asleep,and the final scene of Cymbeline
is one of the funniest comedies I'veever written, where revelation is
piled upon revelation upon revelation.
It's just an unending and theshow runs so much longer because
of all the audience laughing.
(45:40):
I'll bet you the Puritans were linedup in the front row for that show.
Oh, well, yes, was it.
, I believe the Master of the Revelsdelighted in it, but I, I feel
certain that he had as littleregard for the Puritans as I did.
I'm amazed at how much passesthrough the Master of the Revels.
(46:01):
I'm just, I'm trying to figure outwhat they wouldn't let through.
What would be something that they'dsay, yeah, no, that, we can't do that.
I mean, we can have bears anddogs and we can have people
looking at naked people sleeping.
I'm just saying we can.
Kill our children.
We can do everything.
But we can't do, what?
Well, we can't have actual women on stage.
(46:22):
That's one thing we cannot do.
, it's just not done.
Women can act and read plays privatehomes, , but we can't have them on stage.
So , all of my great femalecharacters, strong independent
women are all played by boys.
No women, that's the line that they draw.
Well, that's
(46:42):
So you can kill,
several lines that they draw.
One could not write a playabout assassinating a king.
For instance, I was able to writea play about assassinating Julius
Caesar, but that was, Set safelyin the past, and it was a play
about the folly of assassination.
(47:05):
So it was a warning to would be assassins.
That's one way in whichthat play got approved.
oh, see, I, I think this sounds to mecatering to the monarchs a little bit.
Because if the monarchs were watchingthat, they would say, oh, you see?
Don't even think about assassinating mebecause this is how things will turn out.
And it destroys Rome, if you'll remember.
(47:28):
So there are, it's not a thing one wants
So
I guess a lot of your stories are basedon something that has already happened.
I mean, you're talking Henry the sixthand , you were talking about King
Richard and Julius Caesar, of course.
Help.
, are you just repurposing old storiesand just applying them to something
(47:51):
that's happening in modern times?
Is that what you're doingwith a lot of your stories?
Constantly.
I am constantly repurposing stories.
I wrote so many plays, Ihad to grab plot lines and
characters from wherever I could.
Also, , I wanted the audience to be,at least in some aspect, familiar
with the stories I was telling.
(48:13):
That's why , I wanted to write somuch about the great English kings.
Not, not only were they worthysubject matter, but they were.
But also they were very, very popular.
mentioned my Henry the Sixth plays.
, the play so nice.
I wrote it thrice.
There are three parts to Henry the Sixth,which is one of the things I discovered.
(48:34):
It was one of my very early works.
The first play that I wrote aboutHenry VI turned out to be the
second play I would create , withinthe three plays of Henry VI.
They became so popular.
I was motivated by money.
I confess it.
I was motivated to writemore plays about Henry VI.
(48:57):
And they were so popular that I madequite a bit of money they made , not
only my fortune, but my reputation.
Let me ask you about yourfortune for a minute.
There's something that confuses meabout how good you are at making
money because, I mean, would yousay that you are savvy at business?
Oh, absolutely.
(49:17):
Very savvy.
Very savvy.
The art of making plays ismaking a living at making plays.
And that's what I was able to accomplish.
.It's no wonder people doubt if Shakespeare wrote his own plays.
I mean, actors are known forbeing terrible at business.
That's why they all haveagents or make no money at all.
That's why the term starving actorexists But Shakespeare was good at both
(49:41):
in the next episode We're gonna talkabout how he accidentally burned down the
Globe Theatre He's going to tell us whathe was doing between 1585 and 1592 during
what they call Shakespeare's lost years
and he's going to talk about spyingfor the queen, his relationships
with men, and on and on and on.
I'm glad that you'reenjoying this podcast.
(50:01):
And if you haven't yet, subscribenow, and we'll see you at the next
episode of the Calling History Podcastwith part two of William Shakespeare.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.