Acting, Awards, Arts, Activism, a loved Actress - Julie Hesmondhalgh

Julie Hesmondhalgh is one of Britain’s most loved actresses, she plays roles for stage and screen that tackle important issues and reach out to the hearts and minds of audiences everywhere. Her roles in drama have included sexual violence, the calamity of hate crimes, the representation of transgender people, exploring the right to die and more recently, exposing one of the most widespread miscarriages of justice in British history, The Post Office Scandal. This hit ITV series, Mr. Bates versus the Post Office, has had an unprecedented reaction forcing new political urgency to resolve this scandal. In theatre her work has responded to war, austerity, cancer, mental health, refugees and currently, her personal and emotionally courageous, one woman show, These We Love, a hymn to her working-class childhood. Julie’s work as an artist is part and parcel of her activism for positive change, a fairer society and equality, including access to the Arts. Whilst her famous and ground breaking television role as Hayley Cropper, a transgender woman in Coronation Street, often dominates her career, her work is bigger than this very famous soap opera. Julie is also full of fun and she understands the importance of daftness. She thinks deeply about hope and what it means in how we navigate our lives. We talk about finding her dad's diaries, the huge investment in Arts for the privately educated but devastating cuts in state education and what that means in a democracy. We discuss the Arts in relation to mental health, being able to connect, not feel alone and to combat fear with joy. Julie discusses why hope and optimism are essential in personal and political struggle and how the Arts encourages us all to thrive.

Photos courtesy of Julie Hesmondhalgh

Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.

Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb

Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview, news, reviews and your host are here: www.canartsaveus.com

Discover:

Julie  Hesmondhalgh www.loucoulson.co.uk/talent/julie-hesmondhalgh

Arts Emergency www.arts-emergency.org

Take Back Theatre www.takebacktheatre

 

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to

(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us?

(00:50):
My guest today has such clearpurpose as an artist if she were
a stick of rock, it would bestamped all the way through her.
Her values in social justice,equality and kindness feed into
all of her work. She's a multiaward winning and BAFTA
nominated actress. Julie Hesmondhalgh is one of Britain's
most loved actresses. She playsroles for stage and screen that

(01:13):
tackle important issues andreach out to the hearts and
minds of audiences everywhere.Her roles in drama have included
sexual violence, the calamity ofhate crimes, the representation
of transgender people, exploringthe right to die, and more
recently exposing one of themost widespread miscarriages of
justice in British history, thePost Office scandal. In theater

(01:38):
her work has responded to war,austerity, cancer, mental
health, refugees, and currentlyher personal and emotionally
courageous, one woman show, TheseI love. Julie's work as an
artist is part and parcel of heractivism for positive change, a
fairer society and equalityincluding access to the arts.

(02:03):
Whilst her famous andgroundbreaking television role
as Hayley Cropper, a transgenderwoman in Coronation Street, often
dominates her career her workis evidently bigger than this
very famous soap opera. Julie isalso full of fun, and she
understands the importance ofdaftness. She thinks deeply

(02:24):
about hope, what it means andhow we navigate our lives.
Never mind Coronation StreetJulie is right up my street and
I could not be more pleased thatshe is joining me today. Hello,
Julie. Hello, Paula, what alovely introduction. Crikey
that's something to live up tonow in it, thank you so much that's

(02:47):
really lovely. I feel like,let's just end it there.
Bless your heart, and it's onlytestimony to your unwavering
commitment to the arts and toyour values. So I'm very
grateful for your time. So thankyou again, Julie. No thank you.
Oh, wow. No, the pleasure ismine. But Julie, I was thinking

(03:09):
where on earth do you start with this huge career. But actually,
the current theatre work is agreat place to start because of
course, These I Love, takes usback to the beginning, your
childhood, your formative years.So I wondered if you could tell
us about finding your dad'sdiaries and how this created,

(03:32):
These I Love.
Oh, it's very lovely of youto ask me about it actually,
because it's a it's only alittle thing really. It's a show
that I wrote
quite soon after I lost my dad.And quite soon after I left
Coronation Street after 16years. So what happened was in

(03:52):
2013, my dad died in the Januaryjust as I announced that I was
leaving Corrie. And then I filmedmy last scenes in the November
and there was a little breakbetween me filming my last
scenes and then having myleaving party. So I took myself
off to the Lake District just meand the dog. Because I wanted to

(04:14):
take stock of that year and totry and get my head around these
huge new changes in my lifebecause it had been a job that
I'd loved so much for so longand had been a massive, massive
part of my life. And just almostas an afterthought really, I
packed this old electric blanketbox full of old notebooks and
diaries that my dad had leftwhen he died and that my mum had

(04:39):
dug out and I hadn't had thechance to have a look at since
the funeral. So, so I bunged themin the car and took off and
then I just started reading themwhile I was up in the lakes and
they were extraordinary Paula,the the poetry and the beauty of
the soul of this young

(05:00):
man, because the diaries wentright back to when you were 15,16
years old.
My dad's mother died when he wasa baby. And his father took his
own life when dad was 16, whichis something we knew about but
talked about very little in ourhouse. And it was just

(05:21):
astonishing, to just feel thedepth of feeling and the ability
to express himself that Dad hadfrom such a young age, even
though he'd had no education.
That had been thwarted, he'd gota place in grammar school and had
been stopped from going by hisstepmother, who later disowned

(05:43):
him and left him without a home.So so it was quite an
extraordinary thing. And I justread them like a great novel,
I absolutely devoured themover these few days, and a
very strange experience of goingback from a leaving party at
Coronation Street, feelingabsolutely full of joy and
gratitude, and,

(06:05):
and courage.
I felt very, very emboldened byknowing something more about his
life. And so I just started towrite this short. And I'm not a
writer, I mean, I've written acouple of books, but they're
very much to do with
my ideas, they're more sortof part manifesto, a little bit

(06:28):
memoir, but, but this was astory that I just felt like I
really wanted to tell about thechildhood that my dad had
managed to give to me and mybrother, in spite of not because
of his own past and the tragedyof it. And it felt like a story
to tell about rising above thepreordained circumstances of

(06:48):
your life, changing thenarrative of your life to give
your own children a very, verydifferent kind of upbringing to
the one you've had, over coming,huge mental health problems,
because my dad sufferedthroughout his life through
that, and about the healingpower of daftness. That's kind
of my byline for the show,because my whole childhood was

(07:10):
about play and word play andmaking up rhymes and songs and
games. And, you know, it'ssomething that he really gave to
me and my brother that reallyshaped my life. My dad wasn't an
actor, he wasn't a performer inany sense of the word. But he
certainly gave me a love ofwords and play and playfulness

(07:32):
and curiosity, and a love of thearts as well, which he would
never have given himself anycredit for, absolutely,
throughout his life. So soagain, so this little show was
born, and I did a couple ofscratch performances of it very
early on. And this is the firsttime that I've performed it as
an actual show. Because Lottieat Bolton, Octagon, and Jack at

(07:55):
Live theatre in Newcastle,coincidentally, both contacted
me at the same time, you know,things are very, very difficult
for regional theaters at themoment. And they said, have you
got anything that you couldbring, just for a few days, just
to bring audiences in, and Isaid, Well, funnily enough, I do
have this little show in my backpocket, and I could learn it and
do it. And so that's, that's howit was, and I've got it now. So

(08:16):
I can do it wherever. Becauseit's, you know, it's just me and
the electric blanket box full ofdiaries and notebooks really,
you know, that's all I need todo it. So, so it's been a very,
very lovely thing to spend timewith my dad, and spend time with
friends and family coming to seeit and introducing it to a new

(08:36):
audience. And and it's been it'sbeen very, very rewarding and
lovely experience. Yeah. I mean,it does sound really wonderful.
And particularly because you'rereally gifting your dad's voice
and his values by sharing this.Wouldn't it be wonderful,

(09:00):
imagine him looking down andseeing this take place. But it's
so defining in your life andwhat stood out to me when I read
about your dad's diaries was atonly 16 and apparently this was
only a month after his dad diedin tragic circumstances that he

(09:24):
wrote, A Character I Should Liketo Have. And I wondered if you
might want to just share alittle bit more on that. I found
it really outstanding, thematurity of his young voice
particularly a voice that hasgone through, quite disadvantaged

(09:44):
in terms of you know, the kindof cruel actions from a stepmum
as one example and such tragicloss with his dad. I wondered if
you might want to talk about theimpact of of that alone, of A
Character
I Should Have, because it seemsso defining in your own life.

(10:04):
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was asecond piece I read because I
read the diaries in, no order Ijust read them randomly. And
that was the second piece that Istumbled across when he was, he'd
written it when he was 16, twomonths actually after his dad's
death and it is like a littlemanifesto for life. So so he
talks about being pleasant andsmiling and friendly to everyone

(10:28):
worthy of friendship, you know,he's not overly sentimental in
it, you know, he acknowledgesthat there are people that
aren't worthy of your time andfriendship and energy,
sometimes, you know, but to giveeveryone a chance.
But the overriding thing in it,which I think is very relevant
and pertinent to your podcast,Paula is that he talks about

(10:51):
using the words and music, ofgreat minds, great artists, to
pull himself out of the abyssto, to find meaning in his life.
And, and he did that throughouthis life, he loved the war
poetry of Rupert Brook, he lovedthe novels of Graham Greene. And

(11:13):
loved
he loved anything by Chopin. Imean, how he found access
to these things I haveabsolutely no idea when he left
school at 14 and became abutcher boy and when he did
National Service, he joined thethe classical music listening
group, which was entirelypopulated by officers, he was

(11:37):
the only Private in it, youknow, he sort of there was
something in him a yearning, tofind meaning in his own life,
and to find solace in his ownlife. And the two great loves of
his life that helped him to dothat. And this was the thing
that he discovered at 16, weremusic, poetry, the written word,

(12:00):
and nature, he felt very closeto God, what he defined as God
out in the open air, and boththings carried him through
absolutely to the end of hislife. And, and I think saved
his life, you know, he returnedover and over again to art to
pull him out of those very, verydark places. And he taught me

(12:25):
and my brother to do the same.Yeah, yeah, it's a it must be so
fundamental as a guiding forcein your own life. And also, I
know that, sadly, when dementiaaffected him, you've spoken
about how poetry and musiccontinued to be really

(12:47):
important, its role in wellbeing in healing, in calming.
And I'm very interested in yourpoint of view on that important
relationship we can have withthe arts in terms of our health
and wellbeing because do yousee direct harm happening in the

(13:12):
absence of arts that'sincreasingly happening in our
society after over a decade ofcuts?
100% 100% I do. I, I find itincredibly alarming actually.
Because my dad,
you know, grew up this was thiswas, you know, pre National

(13:35):
Health Service. It was pre that
amazing post war movements thatwas about giving working class
people a better life andeducation and access to stuff
you know, that that incredible
thing that happened after WorldWar Two, you know, that
excitement and energy towardsmaking life better.

(14:00):
You know, he was finding thesethings before that. But
everything it seems to me thatthat happened in that movement
has been taken away now. Soconstantly when I'm in rehearsal
rooms or on set, I'm workingwith people of all different
ages, who would not be there,were it not for various state

(14:24):
sanctioned access programs toArt whether it's older people
that have might have been at
night school, or some kind ofyouth theater or amateur
company, and with youngerpeople, just that wonderful
period where art became quitecentral to learning in the

(14:47):
70s, 80s, 90s. You know, somany people who weren't academic
were struggling at school, whowere the class joker or
whatever. We've heard the storya million times before haven't we
of who just excelled in art ormusic or drama. And who went on
to do great things in thoseareas. And, you know, I'm very

(15:10):
involved in Arts Emergency, whichis a absolutely wonderful
organization that I'm sureyou're aware of Paula. Big shout
out to Arts Emergency. I mean,they are amazing. And, you know,
there are lots and lots ofgroups now that are desperately
scrambling to, to fill the gapnow that has been left by this

(15:30):
this pulling of arts fundingacross the board, in schools and
beyond. And they, you know,they've always said that their
purpose was to create an oldboys network for those who don't
have it. You know, they startedoff by looking at that very
famous, often banned photographof, of all the Etonians that,

(15:51):
you know, included, BorisJohnson and George Osborne, and
David Cameron.You're giving me nightmares now.
Sorry, sorry, we'll have to puta trigger warning in.
If anyone hasn't seen thatphotograph, think yourself
lucky.
And they said, howcan we create that kind of

(16:12):
thing? You know, it's
it's hard not to feel that it'sa conspiracy. When you hear
about the millions that a schoollike Eton pours into its arts
education every year, you know,I think they've got like three
different theater spaces.They've got an artistic

(16:34):
director that works there fulltime. They've got full time
staff. I have friends who wentto Eton, whose musical ability
was nurtured throughout, youknow, the arts is absolute front
and center of a life at Etonand at other public schools,
I'm sure, but I know for a factat Eton which is where a lot of
obviously, the governmentand previous governments

(16:56):
have, have, have been, and Idon't think it's because they
are keen to create the nextgeneration of actors and
musicians. It's because theyknow that an arts education
gives people self worth, selfconfidence, communication
skills, problem solving skills,all the things that matter when

(17:21):
you are trying to train up thenext leaders of your country.
And it's hard not to feel likeit's a conspiracy when that arts
funding increases year on year,while it's being caught back
year on year in state education.And right down to the Ebacc,

(17:41):
which is an absolute scandalthat the Ebacc is this, you know,
the way that we teach in schoolsnow, and there is a humanities
subject, and English and mathsand artis an add on. It's a,
it's an extra to that it's notseen as, as an essential
subject as state education soall those young people who might

(18:07):
have found themselves excellingin both things, you know, Arts
Emergency's motto is You Can'tBe What You Can't See, if somebody
doesn't give you a script andsay, right, try this, if
somebody doesn't put a trumpetin your hand, try that. If
somebody doesn't put a pencil inyour hand and say, sketch
this, then you might never knowthat you're the next great
artist, musician, actor. Buteven if you're not going to be

(18:31):
the next great one of thosethings. It gives you a sense of
belonging in the world. It givesyou purpose, it gives you
mindfulness, it gives you flow,it's you know, over and over
again, it's been studied andproven that it improves mental
health in young people in allpeople. It's an essential part

(18:52):
of the way that we live and weare absolutely blocking the road
to that happiness and well beingand contentment and good mental
health to a massive swathe of thepopulation, the majority of the
population, and I always callmyself state privileged because,
you know, it was, I went toschool I was I was educated, you

(19:16):
know, state educated, but
arts and culture was very muchat the heart of learning, not
even as a subject but as anextracurricular thing. And, and
just the way that we were taughtas well. We had a school work
register, we put on playsconstantly. We had an amazing
and well resourced artdepartments and music

(19:36):
departments. My children werepart of a Thameside music scheme
where every single child in ourvery deprived borough was given
the opportunity to learn amusical instrument and then once
a year would go to theBridgewater Hall in Manchester
and play with the HalleOrchestra. And I know that
several people went on to to goto the Royal College of Music

(19:56):
and the Royal Northern Collegeof Music to study after that,
and
would never have done that ifsomeone hadn't given them a
coronet you know, or a violin. it's, and that's been cut
since obviously, it's beencut, you know, local
authorities can't afford to bedoing that now. So I absolutely
see it every single level, thedecimation of art, in our

(20:21):
culture and this
this cultural notion that it isa playground for the wealthy,
and that it is not for the likesof us. And it's just a tragedy.
And I think that we're going tosee year on year, a real

(20:43):
struggle for the the mentalhealth of this generation coming
through now. And it's, you know,people are doing their best.
They're setting up youthprograms in view theaters, and
orchestras and bands and it, butit's very, very difficult. And
even, even if you manage to beone of the lucky ones to go and

(21:03):
study any of the arts at highereducation. After that, it
becomes impossible, you knowbecause I set up a theatre
company with a group of friends.in London, we signed on, we
claimed housing benefit, allthe bands in the 90s did that,
you know, they just messedaround with their mates and
formed a band and started doingsmall gigs. And there's not the

(21:26):
time or space or money to dothat now. So even that has been
taken away. So I, it's, it's anabsolute travesty, what is going
on. And, and I hope that anincoming government will will do
something to change that. Yeah.The crisis, the level of crisis in

(21:49):
the UK, let alone globally,it is catastrophic. And it's
very hard, isn't it to not beable to see how cultural
deprivation on this scale,subjects ripped out of schools,
degrees disappearing, entirecampuses closing down. Yes. How

(22:13):
can this not be deepening theclass system, the class divide,
and we're met with all theserubbishy, ludicrous, yet more
slogans, leveling up? Are youhaving me on? So for me, and a
motivation for the importance ofthe research in this series, is

(22:35):
the fact that the arts are verycore to our democracy, and our
democratic rights. And I'm veryconcerned that the arts are
actually less and lessunderstood because of these
depravations as being core toour democratic rights. I

(22:58):
consider it sinister, or is thatextreme? No, no, it's like I say
it's hard not to feel likeit's a conspiracy when it's so
laid out like that. Why arepublic schools putting so much
money into the arts? Why? Whydid they see that it is

(23:19):
important for their children tohave that arts education? Why
why is it central to learning?
And it's not seen as central tolearning in state schools, how
can you not see that assinister? It's we do not want,
this this, the people in power,do not want an educated,

(23:41):
confident,
mentally well, communicativeerudite,
cultural, working class. Ofcourse, they don't. Of course,
they don't. Because what willthat mean it will mean that
we'll be able to take space andtake up room in places that they

(24:03):
want to be exclusively theirs. Youknow, when we see we can see it,
you know, the people who runtelevision now they're all part of
that, you know, they are allbenefactors.
They are they've benefited fromthat post war movements that

(24:23):
have given equal opportunitiesto people in the arts, and that
is now being taken away. And Ithink moving forward, if the
people that are in charge of thetelling of stories are from one
very narrow swathe of society,which of course is the top swathe
then we're not going to havestories about us and for us.

(24:45):
And how will we make sense ofour world then if we have no
power in the arts, if we werenot in positions where we can be
writing those stories orproducing them or directing
them? You know, it's gonna be
moving forward, that is going tobe a very, very difficult time,
I think. And even if you're avery well meaning privately

(25:07):
educated, privileged person inthat position of power, there
will be a discomfort and a lackof confidence in telling those
stories, because they won't befrom us and of them, you know,
there will always be thosethings because there'll be
people breaking through. But youwill have to be extraordinary to
do that, you know, I think thisis, I think this is what we

(25:29):
have. It's like if you, if youshow an extraordinary talent in
something, and you're fromextreme poverty, hopefully,
there'll be somebody there topush you through that. But for
everybody else who's justfinding the way, you know,
there's just, there's justnothing, there's absolutely
nothing. Yeah, the chancesaren't fair, and the access is

(25:52):
really no longer there. And thisis a critical question you
consistently raise and motivatesyour choices in terms of roles
you invest in, and it's simplyasking, who will tell our
stories? It goes back to thedemocratic role of the arts and

(26:17):
of course, a huge currentexample of that is the Post
Office scandal, the drama andyou've had a wonderful lead role
in this huge ITV hit series. Iwondered if you'd like to share
with the listeners, you know,your experience of being part of

(26:42):
that production. And in terms,of course, it being an example
of art and power, the fact thatit's a drama that has mobilized
more action in a massivescandal, 20, 20 years plus later.
Yeah, I mean, it has been, inone way, it has been absolutely

(27:05):
incredible. And in another way,it's been no surprise at all. So
it was interesting. You know, weall all the actors, all the
creatives, everybody involved inin Mr. Bates Versus the Post
Office was incredibly investedin the story and telling that
story. Well, it had been verydifficult to make, by all
accounts, because television isall about making money now. You

(27:29):
know, it speaks the language ofcapitalism, like a lot of art
does now, and they didn't thinkit would sell in America. So it was
very difficult to get it made.And it is, it has been sold to
America now I'm told. Soeverybody did it cut price.
You know, obviously, when I saycut price, we all got paid very
handsomely, compared to what onenormally would be paid in

(27:50):
television.
Everybody, it was a, it was aproject born out of passion for
sure it from the producers andeveryone involved. And we hoped
it would make a difference. Butwe had absolutely no sense of
the scale of it. Because it's amysterious thing how these
things happen. You know,sometimes, something just comes

(28:11):
out at exactly the right momentand captures the public
imagination. And I think thatthere was something about this
period where we are all at peaklies and corruption. We are all
just up to our eyes in it. Andthere was something about this

(28:31):
drama, and it's cosy ITV-nessthat made people go, that's
enough. That is enough. And sowe hoped it would change things
we knew it was we know all of usinvolved know the power of art
and the power of storytelling,to get a message across to
create empathy to encouragepeople to put themselves in

(28:55):
somebody else's shoes. That'sabsolutely the business we're
in isn't it. But but the thescale of it was, Well, I think
unprecedented. I mean, for manyyears, at least, you know, I
think the last time I can I canremember something having this
sort of impact politically, wasHillsborough. And then of course,

(29:18):
you know, in the 60s, there werethere were Cathy Come Home,
and you know, everything thatKen Loach has ever done really
but, again, on a much smallerscale more recently. So yeah, it
was an incredible thing to bepart of it. And the big question
that everybody was asking, youknow, so in the first week,
everyone sort of startedwatching and said, Oh, yeah,
this is good. This isinteresting. I knew a little bit

(29:39):
about this. I didn't know theins and outs of it. And then it
built over that week. And by thesecond week after it had been
broadcast we were all beeninvited to speak on all the
major news channels. It was veryintimidating. So we were on, you
know, World at One and AndrewMarr and
the question they

(30:00):
were asking us because ofcourse, we're just actors, you
know. So it's not like we wereeven part of the creating of it.
It was like, Why has ittaken an ITV drama to, to make
things move politically. And itis exactly that it is because we
as a nation sat down in thefirst week of the new year, and

(30:23):
seen it condensed that 20 yearscandal into four episodes,
where you could so clearly putyourself in those people's
shoes. I mean, not a singleperson could have watched Monica
Dolan and surrounded by receipts,pulling her hair out on the
phone to the helpline, and notimagine what that must have felt

(30:44):
like, as that debt doubled infront of her eyes as she was on
the phone, or Will Mellorstanding in court with all
his faith in the Britishjustice system, "I'll just tell
the truth. I'll just go and tellthe truth. And they'll they'll
understand." And then being toldhe had to pay 300,000 pound
court costs, you know, we allknow how that must feel. And,

(31:08):
and also the sort ofvilification of all those people
in their own communities becausethere was noone talking about it on
a grand scale. I mean, I have tosay that, you know, one thing
that I keep talking aboutsubsequently, that wasn't really
talked much about in the drama wasthat if there had there been a proper
Union, as opposed to this sortof quasi union that is the

(31:30):
Federation that were completelyin the bosses pockets. If they
had been a proper union, this,this this scandal would have
been over in a week, you know,the proper union would have
said, Our members are all sayingthere have been problems with
this new computer system and thedebt is doubling in front of
their eyes, and it would havebeen stopped, you know, so it's
a good advert for beingunionized as well, I think

(31:52):
but it is, it was amazing.Yeah. And I think your point
about the union is actuallyanother example of having voice.
So we're talking about the artsand drama giving voice and on a
very practical level, a uniongives voice. And again, it goes
back to what do we understand ademocracy to be and surely that

(32:12):
is having voice, all of ushaving voice, all of us being
represented. I'll just quicklyinterject, Julie, because I'm
lucky enough to haveinternational listeners. So just
in case, people aren't familiarwith the Post Office scandal.
I'll just recap that this is ahuge miscarriage of justice

(32:34):
because the Post Office wronglyaccused and prosecuted hundreds
of innocent subpostmasters fortheft and fraud or false
accounting.
This actually resulted incriminal convictions, people
going to jail. There is thehorrifying reality of linked

(32:56):
suicides, bankruptcy, familiesfailing, health failing, it's an
absolute travesty. But thescandal continues because of the
outrageous delay in compensationor redress of this financial
scandal. So I just wanted togive some of the other

(33:17):
listeners context, should theynot be familiar. Absolutely.
Yeah, it's a real David andGoliath story of ordinary people
being absolutely done over by
a business that had absolutelyno regard at all for its
workers. But more than that,absolutely threw them under the

(33:38):
bus to save their brand. It wasall about brand. I mean, you
know, when you're watching it,you're just like, Why? Why
didn't they just say at somepoint, yes we've made a
mistake. It's like, it'sunbelievable how sinister it's
been. And and I think it's, as Isay, I think it just highlights

(33:58):
the fact that it can happen,because I think that we have
become a little bit anewed to corruption. You know, we've
lived through such unbelievabletimes over the last few years,
the scandals come and scandalsgo, and they don't affect us
in the same way anymore. Becausewe're so used to it, its become

(34:19):
so normalized the politiciansand people in power and the
establishment, lie and cheatand, and
disrespects, and I mean, justordinary people just it's it's
terrible. So I feel the proudestthing about this is that, that

(34:39):
it has mobilized people andpeople didn't let it go. And you
know, people were just like,what is happening about this now
and, and it's been incrediblyvindicating for the for the
victims, who are stillhere to be vindicated, of
course. Yeah, absolutely. And ofcourse, it really begs the
question, doesn't it. Why does

(35:00):
the current government notonly disproportionately and
relentlessly cut the arts, whydo they also label arts subjects
as soft and low value? And Ithink we really need to
address the prejudice of thislanguage and these choices when

(35:21):
we start to relate how the artsnot only support health, well
being, social cohesion, butagain, going back to democracy
and issues of social justice.Imagine if this particular drama
hadn't been made, presumably,the scandal would continue to be

(35:42):
buried. Yeah, it wouldabsolutely. I mean, you know, I
don't want to
I don't want to underplay theincredible investigative
journalism and campaigningjournalism that has gone on for
the 20 years, you know,
Nick Wallace, who made the BBCpodcast about the scandal has

(36:03):
been, you know, really, reallykey in this as has Private Eye,
as has Computer Weekly, youknow, they were, they were doing
this work for years. And withouttheir work, the drama wouldn't
have been made, you know, it'sreally important to,
you know, to acknowledge that,but sometimes it takes, you

(36:25):
know, that tool of empathy,storytelling, to really, really
make people understandsomething, you know, and to see
people to see a person goingthrough something, in real time,
is often more effective than anynumber of news articles,
podcasts,

(36:46):
TV documentaries, you know, itis it is an incredible, potent
tool for creating social changeand storytelling, it's something
that we've done since timebegan, you know, it's part of
us, isn't it to do that. And so,yeah, the decrying of it as a
soft subject is just,

(37:07):
I mean, it's just madness init. It is just absolute
madness. I mean, I've been to,someone from Arts Emergency
Neil runs, Arts Emergencysaid that recently, someone had
taken him to task about usingthe language of capitalism to
talk about art. And, and I'vereally taken that on board,
actually, because you hearconstantly people talking,

(37:28):
people the arts, talkingabout it in economic terms, and
there is no getting away fromit. You know, the cultural
industries in this country areone of the only burgeoning
industries left, it brings in1.4, I think billion pounds a
year
it's what we do best. You know,we're world leaders in arts and

(37:51):
culture, from theater, to opera,to television, to film, all
those things cannot be arguedwith. But sometimes we fall back
on talking in that language, inorder to justify what we do, and
to try and persuade people thatit isn't a soft subject, that it
is worth studying that it isworth taking a career in.

(38:15):
But actually, beyond that, waybeyond that, is the stuff that
you're talking about Paula, whichis about how crucial it is and
how absolutely embedded in usit is to tell stories, in order
to make sense of things, tosolve problems, to combat

(38:39):
prejudice. You know, for many,many years, I played a trans
character in Coronation Street.
And it changed things. And I sawthe changes that happened for
trans people at that point. Now,I would never play that part
now, you know, it was verydifferent time it was the late

(39:00):
90s. I was cast as a cisgenderperson in that role. But
ordinary people watchingCoronation Street, saw this
character, liked her and more thanthat, really, really got behind
her relationship with thisshy cafe owner. And that role
was written as a joke, I didn'tknow that but this magical

(39:24):
thing happened like it happenedwith the Post Office, where this
huge, huge number of thepopulation tuned in and really,
really wanted this relationshipbetween Roy and Haley to work.
And I would be stopped by people inthe streets, people asked when are Roy
and Haley getting married? And Isaid well, we're not allowed to
get married because at thatpoint, it was against the law

(39:45):
for trans people to marry theirpartners. They would say Oh,
nevermind that! Nevermind that!And that's how you change the
world you know, because if youhave a prejudice against someone
if you, if if something is anissue and you don't understand
and it and you're fearful of itin some way. That's where hatred
starts. That's where divisionstarts. But if you have somebody

(40:07):
in your living room four times aweek, and you're rooting for
them, that's how you start tounpick prejudice. And, and
that's, and I saw that happen. Isaw that happen when I was in
Coronation Street, I saw the lawchanging and it's been thanked
as a TV program for creatingthis cultural change, that

(40:31):
contributed to that movementtowards the acceptance of trans
people and the law being changedin their favor. I mean, things
are very, very difficult fortrans people again, now, but
back then there was this momentof, of things shifting
culturally and politically fortrans people. And, and I,

(40:51):
and I've seen it for myself,I've seen it too many times now
to to not be an absoluteadvocate for art changing lives
and contributing towards thechange of policy, and
attitudes in our society. And

(41:12):
so for us still to be having todefend the arts as not a
soft subject, as crucial, asimportant as central as it is to
us all seems absolutely bonkersto me. Yeah. The example of
Haley and Roy is just sosignificant.

(41:34):
That the compassion engenderedthrough probably one of the
greatest screen love stories inhistory I think we could say in
many ways, you know, such afamous, yeah, in such a famous
soap opera, you know, right upthere with all the big cinematic
love stories. I have to admit, Icould not bring myself to watch

(41:58):
the final scene, Haley's end oflife scene, because that, that
love story was so huge. Butisn't it fantastic. This is such
an important example of how thearts, taking this example of the
Performing Arts helps peopleproject, it helps remove
barriers, people simply focusedon the humanity of those two

(42:21):
people and their love for eachother. And this is, of course,
something that I think it's fairto say motivates all of your
work behind Take Back Theater,which you might like to talk
about, because you've emphasizedthrough that work,
in fact, I'll quote you, Julie,

(42:42):
you're talking about theimportance of drama, "because
it's asking people simply to dowhat good art has always
required of us, to placeourselves firmly in the shoes of
another." Yeah. Yeah, absolutelythat. We set up set up Take Back,

(43:04):
me and Rebecca Harrison and GrantArcher,
back in 2015, I think it was,
the Conservative PartyConference was in Manchester.
And we wanted to create anevening a theater that asked
questions about policy. And itwas, it was a really successful

(43:25):
evening. And we decided tocreate something more long term
where we would make immediateresponses of short script in
hand pieces to social andpolitical events, which seems a
bit dry, and they never dryevents. They're absolutely
amazing. And, and we've thoughtlong and hard over the years
about what we're doing, becauseyou really question yourself, I

(43:48):
think, as an artist and as atheatre company, when it's clear
that you are preaching to theconverted, you know, we did an
evening on the night of Trump'sinauguration. And we did a show
called Take Back America inManchester. And we had loads and
loads of amazing writers writein short pieces and fantastic

(44:09):
actors perform in them. And
you know, it was clear, youknow, there wasn't going to be
somebody in a mega hat stumblingupon that evening and being like
the scales falling from theireyes and going like,
yes actually, you know, Imaybe shouldn't have voted for
Donald Trump. That is not thepurpose of what we do. There is

(44:31):
so much division now in oursociety. And this is what I mean
about the sort of like that,that movement that followed the
Post Office drama, there was asort of togetherness about it. I
think that people took realcomfort in it being an issue
that everybody it seemed, acrossall political persuasions, could
see the absolute wrongness ofwhat had gone on with the way

(44:55):
that the Post Office has treatedits workers over so many years.
And there was a real
comfort in everybody agreeing onthat, you know, we're very
united on that issue. And in aworld that feels very, very
divided a lot of the time now.And what we aim to do with
Take Back is we ask questions aboutan issue that's, that's going

(45:17):
on. We try to startconversations. But we're also
about emboldening people. And Ithink about it as, like, church,
really, you know, people go tochurch, not to be converted,
they go to church to feel asense of community, and a sense

(45:40):
of fellowship, and a sense ofhaving your faith in what you
believe in, reinforced. And, andfeeling sure of yourself as you
leave. I assume that's howpeople feel when they've left
church. And that's, I think,what we do with Take Back, we

(46:03):
have created a place whereartists and audiences who feel a
little bit in the politicalwilderness at the moment, and
they find a place that is very,very different from sitting
behind your computer screen oryour phone screen at home,
feeling very, very

(46:24):
isolated, and at odds with theworld. Because everything can
seem very, very
difficult and combative. And itcreates a place where people can
watch and listen, and then havegreat conversations in the bar
afterwards, and then leavefeeling much less alone, in

(46:46):
perhaps their feelings about howthey would like the world to be.
And I think that we do thatvery, very successfully
actually.
We, you know, we we're at apoint now where we're doing
different things with our work.So we're doing much more kind of
immersive and installation basedwork around very specific issues

(47:08):
like the refugee crisis.
But yeah, yeah, it's been a,it's been a thing that has given
me probably more joy than anyother artistic pursuit that I've
had in the last few years,because we've put them together
these evenings,

(47:29):
quite quickly. And with verylittle stress these days. I
mean, that's hilarious, becauseit's always stressful just
before but, but becauseit's script in hand we can get
great people to come along andjust rehearse in the day, and
then put it on at night. And wehave created this little
community of people inManchester. Well, a growing
community of people inManchester, who occupy what I

(47:51):
always talk about as being themiddle bit of the Venn diagram,
which is between being an artistand an activist, and finding a
place for us there, and thecommunity there. And that has
felt just wonderful for me.Yeah, yeah, it does seem that
Take Back Theatre is a brilliantexample of why we need cultural

(48:14):
spaces. And what you'redescribing is enabling a space
for connection. We're talkingabout social cohesion, and ways
of exploring, exercising healthycuriosity and understanding. What
what I'm curious about isactually going back to courage.
We touched on courage early onin the interview, particularly

(48:38):
in relation to your your dad'sstories as a young boy and his
experiences. But courage clearlytravels through who you are. And
I think sometimes it's very easyto think artists are simply
artists, we kind of maybe don'tremember to think about the

(49:00):
degree of challenges and couragethat's required for artists to
fulfill their roles in all sortsof different ways. So actors,
for example, have realresponsibility around
representation. And you're notshy of hard choices. So if I was
to highlight Broadchurch, forexample, where you take the role

(49:25):
of a woman who's subject tosexual violence and rape, and
also Black Roses, whichobviously,
is the true story of the brutaland horrific murder of Sophie
Lancaster, an example of hatecrimes, you're not shy of very,

(49:45):
very difficult roles. I'minterested, Julie, on how you
would explain perhaps yourartistic and personal courage, is
it
the necessity of
honouring your beliefs? Well, Idon't feel I don't feel

(50:05):
courageous at all. I mean, Ifeel like I am constantly in a
position of
I don't know, just just feelinglike I don't do or say enough and
that, that, that I can be very,

(50:25):
I can be very, very frightened,actually of saying the wrong
thing. I don't like creatingdivision, I don't like,
I don't like being part of offallings out about things, you
know. So I've had some very,very difficult moments with

(50:48):
myself recently about how muchto say or not to say about the
conflict in Gaza.
I know that as a public figure,I have a responsibility to stand
side by side with people who aresuffering, and I found that a
very, very difficult line towalk, you know, and, and I felt

(51:09):
very,
I felt very challenged by my ownfeelings of
not wanting to
upset certain people. And yeah,it's been it's been, it's been a
time of great

(51:30):
personal
difficulty for me in that, andwhen I say that, obviously, you
know, compared to people whoare going through horrendous
things there, I'm not comparing itto that at all. But it is that
sort of that point at which whento speak, when not to speak,
what your role is how you'remost useful. You know, I feel

(51:51):
like I do.
I'm good at bringing peopletogether, in some ways, and I
don't want to lose that, thatcapacity. And so yeah, so it's
interesting, you talk aboutcourage at a time when I'm very,
very
much questioning my own
courage and ability to put myhead above the parapet at the

(52:14):
moment, Paula, but, and in termsof the roles that I get, and do,
I just think that I've just beenincredibly fortunate, I will
give myself credit in saying thatI know that people trust me, to
bring integrity to what I dothat I won't just go, like,
take the money and run and allthat if I'm if I'm playing

(52:36):
somebody who is a survivor ofrape and sexual violence, I know
that the people that areemploying me, know that I'll be
able to talk about that, that Iwill do my research, that I will
talk to people and that I willdo my absolute best to represent
the group of people that I'mrepresenting the same with Haley
and the trans issue, you know,there are a lot of people that

(52:58):
had an issue, even back then,with me as a cisgendered person
playing that role. And, and Ifelt really certain that it was
the right thing, then that itwould have been unbelievable
pressure for a trans actor,because there was so few then,
and the press would have gonefor them in such a way that

(53:18):
I felt really sure that I wouldrepresent them with with
integrity, and really, reallytry to be a spokes person for
them in the best possible way.And that, you know, it comes
with it, you know, and someactors are really, really happy
just to play the role and nottake on that role as somebody
who talks about it, and aroundaround the issue, but, and all

(53:41):
that that is something that Ican bring to the table. And so I
think that that's possibly why Iget a lot of these roles. I'm
just about to start a job inNottingham, that's about
restorative justice, and, youknow, on and that's something
I'm really, really interested inthis idea of forgiveness and the
idea of like, how we can helppeople who've done terrible

(54:02):
things to change their lives andwhat role we have in that. And,
and again, I feel like ohamazing that I've been given
this chance to play somethingthat I can really delve into
that issue, something that I'venot looked at deeply before and
read around and, and talk aboutand meet the people involved.
And so I do feel very fortunatethat I've been putting in that

(54:25):
position over and over again. Soit doesn't feel like courage at
all. It feels like
it feels like privilege. And Ido, I am careful you know, when
I got the role in Broadchurch,I didn't know Chris Chibnall who
was the creator of it then. AndI didn't know what the story was

(54:48):
gonna be. And I did ask, youknow, so it wasn't like, I'll
give myself credit in that Ididn't just go, ooh Broadchurch
big hit! I'm in it! You know, I wouldn't have taken the
role
if I had, the questions that Iasked very early on, when they
offered me the part, if it wasgoing to turn out that she lied,

(55:09):
or, you know that, that it wasgoing to be a story that was
very much about the perpetratorof that crime rather than the
survivor of it, I wouldn't havetaken it, you know, I don't want
to be part of something thatthat feeds into
a difficult narrative that theway that we tell these stories,

(55:29):
so, so I am prepared to say noto things, I think sometimes,
you can show more courage indoing that. And again, I'm very
lucky because I'm, you know, I'mfinancially secure because of
the work that I've done. Youknow, there are people who are
so brave in saying no to thingswhen a part might be life

(55:51):
changing for them in terms ofsecurity and stuff. And, you
know, it's them that should beapplauded for that. I think
sometimes it's the saying no that you'll never see or hear
about. That is the real bravechoice. Yeah, everything you've
just said, really relates to theimportance of integrity, the

(56:12):
relationship of integrity tocourage, and to making the right
choices is something otherguests have raised. In fact,
Basil Watson, who's a worldleading sculptor, I was lucky
enough to interview, he'sresponsible for the Windrush
Memorial, at London's Waterloostation, and his emphasis is
very much on integrity andmaking the right choices.

(56:36):
However small that choice may beor comparatively small in the
world, it's about making theright choice. And sometimes we
have to be very courageous tomake the right choice. Yeah,
yeah, we do. And I think andsometimes we have to be really,
you know, we have to be reallyhonest with ourselves. And, and

(56:57):
I think sometimes we have toallow ourselves cowardice, you
know, we have to allow ourselvesto be fearful. And we have to
be,
you know, I think that as longas there is thoughtfulness in
the choices that you make, youknow, it's okay to make
mistakes, too. It's alright, toget it wrong. It is alright, to

(57:18):
get it wrong. And it's
and that is the hardest thing,you know, because we when you
are a public person, you know,that you're being watched in the
choices that you make, and theway that you choose to use your
voice. And whether it's throughyour work or the way you talk
around the work or, or just as apublic figure, you know, and

(57:41):
I think it's,
it's, I think that people can bevery fearful of things. And
actually,
I don't know if I've not gotjobs because of my stance
politically on things. I don'tknow that.
I know that I've got jobsbecause of it. So you know,

(58:01):
it's worth being true toyourself as much as possible.
Yeah, absolutely. It does seemimportant to be clear about your
own motivation doesn't it tosort of justify your own
decision making. And it'sinteresting, your your emphasis
on the fact that people can bemade to feel very fearful.

(58:23):
There's lots of reasons to befearful in our lives. But that
brings me to a really importantconversation you've raised which
is about being curious aboutwhat hope is, and the importance
of understanding and exploringwhat hope is. I wondered if

(58:46):
you'd like to share somethoughts on that. Well, hope is
something that that Take Back ourtheatre company returned to over
and over again, you know, andit's,
and it's a very difficult andslippery thing this hope isn't
it. Because there have beentimes recently where I have felt

(59:07):
myself lacking in hope. Andthinking, oh, you know, things
feel really tough, you know,socially, politically, globally.
I can't remember a time whenthings have felt quite so far
along in the scale of bleakness,you know, in a lot of ways. But,

(59:27):
again, going back to Arts Emergency, they have a wonderful
motto, a sort of a littlebadge that they have, which is
Optimism is Our Superpower. Itis completely in those who run
the world's interests for usto be hopeless and bleak, and

(59:50):
feel that we have no power tochange anything. And that the
way things are
is the way things are andnothing that littleold
us can ever do will changethat. And that is an incredibly
strong position for theestablishment to be in for us to

(01:00:13):
feel like they have a populationthat just feels like well, it's
just awful, isn't it? It's justall so awful. And there's
nothing that we can do. And Ithink that it is our duty, our
absolute duty to remain hopeful,and to remain optimistic. And to
remember that the world comes inepochs. Life comes in epochs,

(01:00:38):
that things are terrible. Andthen they get better. We have
gone through huge, absolutelyenormous cultural and societal
changes over the last few years,the last few decades and the
last few centuries. And thingsalways change. And we have to

(01:00:59):
remember how powerful we are.You know that the public outcry
over the Post Office scandalbecause of just that one little
four part ITV drama is changingthings, when we choose to put
our voices together. It is nocoincidence that
this government at the moment iscoming down hard on protest

(01:01:24):
because our young people arecoming out in their 1000s to say
enough is enough. Enough isenough with food poverty, with
climate change, with
arms sales to countries who arewholesale bombing innocent
people. We are coming out in ourdroves led by our young people

(01:01:50):
our passionate, amazing youngpeople. And you will see them
decried you will see them calledhate mongers, you're terrorist
sympathizers, thugs, middle classposhies with nothing else
better to do, they'll throweverything at them. And to me,

(01:02:10):
that can only be a good signthat they are absolutely
terrified of this nextgeneration and what they are
capable of. Because, you know,people have done amazing things
they have brought down theBerlin Wall, they've ended
apartheid in South Africa. Changenever ever comes from above, the
status quo will always remainthe status quo. Because the

(01:02:33):
people in power want it to beso until we as people say
enough is enough. And we'vealways had the power to do that.
It comes in waves and it comesin, you know, just there's
always a tipping point, and thenthings change. And
and you've just got to rememberthat and keep hold of that and go

(01:02:53):
Yeah, there have been so manythings that have seemed outside
anything we could imagine. Youknow, only a few short decades
ago, we were dealing withsection 28. And then gay
marriage came, bang, overnight, itseemed, you know, things that
seemed so outside the overtonwindow of what could be possible

(01:03:14):
in our world suddenly becomespossible and normalized because
of ordinary people are at thecoalface of change, working
every day to make things happen.You know, people standing
outside embasseys, demonstratingfor years and years and years
thinking nothing is changing.Every single action that anybody

(01:03:35):
takes is part of that movementto change things and we mustn't,
ever let the powers that be,make us feel that we're useless,
alone, powerless, incompetent,impotent, any of those things,
because together, we're morepowerful than they dare to even

(01:03:57):
imagine. And that's where I findmy hope. And that's where I
found my optimism. And I thinkthat it is our absolute duty to
keep that and to keep passingthat on. Yeah. And it's such an
important reminder that everyact, every seed, matters, and
talking of protest, andincreased infringements on our

(01:04:21):
rights to protest, again, goingback to questions of democracy,
our democratic rights, needing tostart questioning, our
democratic rights being changedor compromised. But also, it's
interesting when you think abouthope and also joy, as an act of

(01:04:44):
rebellion or an act of protestagainst fear and despair. And
would you say, that's whereagain, we can go to the arts to
find joy, to find hope that thearts can
cultivate those qualities thatmay help us rise, rise up to the

(01:05:06):
better lives and the fairerworld that we want to exist in?
100% That's, that's absolutelypart, a massive part of what
art does isn't it is to give uspleasure to give us joy, to
bring us together to experiencethings in the same room

(01:05:27):
together, you know, whetherthat's a film or a play, or an
opera or a dance piece or a gig.You know, that is absolutely
what it is. It's about communityand joy and happiness. And an
absolutely that is that is artsmain purpose, you know, and,
and what what kind of a worldwould we live in without those

(01:05:48):
things, you know, and, you know,the way that we're constantly
told that those things don'trelate to us that there just
nothing to do with us, when
every single person experiencesart in some form or other every
day and find some sort of solaceor joy, or comfort from it. That

(01:06:11):
is exactly it Paula, that isexactly it. And you know,
there's there's a wonderful bookcalled
Radical Happiness by Lynne Segalis a wonderful writer and
activist and, and it's aboutexactly that. It's about the,
the joy of of, of movements ofbeing part of things, you know,

(01:06:31):
and working towards changetogether. And I think that that
is why Take Back and working in thedifferent places that I've
worked, where I've been able tocombine art and activism gives
me so much joy and purpose,because, you know, those are the
two things that
that make the world go round, asfar as I'm concerned. Those are

(01:06:55):
my two great passions and beingable to add to have a huge
privilege of being able tocombine those two things. You
know, more than most people getthe chance to, it's been the
great honor of my life. Yeah,absolutely.
Struggle really has to meet hopeand joy as part of perseverance

(01:07:20):
it seems to me.
Even very recently, you may beaware, I'm not sure if it may
even affect Take Back theater asone example. But the Arts
Council was in a controversyvery recently, because they had,
they had used the languageto say, or to really deliver a

(01:07:44):
clear warning that being overtlypolitical, artists and arts
organizations, could lead torisks of funding withdrawal. So
of course, that would inevitablylead to uproar, again, it's a
it's a it's compromising yourdemocratic rights. They've since
updated this statement, they'vesaid that it was open to

(01:08:09):
misinterpretation.
Was it?
Well, they need to get bettercopywriters don't they. It
was pretty clear to me what itmeans it was absolutely, I mean,
I mean, so shocking, soshocking. But that's the culture
we're in now. That's a culturein which you're not allowed to
say anything without sort ofputting over the other opposing

(01:08:32):
points of view in a fair andbalanced way. That is not what
conversation is, you know, it'sjust isn't it's like
Afua Hirsch said she was on shewas being interviewed, you know,
she's written a brilliant,brilliant book, British, about
about racism in Britain. And shesaid that it got to the point

(01:08:53):
where she was going on toprograms to debate racism with a
racist and she was like, there'snot opposing view to racism that
you need to get someone on toput the the other point of view
for balance. It's like she said,that's like getting a
survivor of rape on and then goingoh well, we better get a rapist

(01:09:15):
in as well just to get theirpoint of view. You know, it's
sometimes it doesn't work likethat, you know, we have to speak
truth to power we have to beable to, to make the people in
power accountable for theiractions and my god, their
actions new taken into accountthese, you know, these last few
years in particular. And so forus after, every time we make a

(01:09:39):
statement about something thatis being done to us, to our
democratic rights, to our freedoms, to our ability to
survive, to our rights to properbenefits and welfare and
education and health. If you sayanything about those things that
you have to sort of like

(01:10:00):
you have to have a kind ofartistic version of a comment
from the government in it. It'sjust absolutely crackers, and the
death of arts actually. And soagain, again, you know, people
just were just in uproar. And they've had to take a step back
from that statement, but it wasreally clear what they meant,

(01:10:20):
because they're scared that their funding may be cut by a
government that doesn't valuewhat they do. It all comes
back to that. Yeah, it wasabsolutely shocking. And because
also,
misinterpretation, certainly notours shouldn't have been in any
way a possibility.
It seems I'm horribly consciousof how fast time goes, that I

(01:10:45):
should probably move to the end,question, the series question,
in view of everything we'vesaid. And we've probably
answered it in lots of differentways but Can art save us?
Can art save us?

(01:11:07):
It's really hard because Iam such a, I'm such an
evangelist for arts. I am suchan evangelist, generally, I
think that my complete instinctis to say, yes, of course it
can. I think that to say it
that way is is problematic.

(01:11:29):
I think that art is part, ahuge and important part of
the way that helping us tounderstand the world that we
live in, and to encourage us tochange the circumstances of our
lives and the lives of thosearound us. I think that it

(01:11:54):
absolutely enables us to findjoy in darkness, light in
darkness. I think that itincreases our wellbeing and our
good mental health. Whether itsaves us is a different matter.
But it certainly contributes topulling us out of the abyss.

(01:12:16):
That's what I'd say. Yeah, andactually a quote of yours I
have, which I think probablycomplements what you're saying
is "a culture without diversitywill be a sick one." Yeah,
absolutely. And that is what artis about. Absolutely.
Representing us, showing us thegrey areas, the difficult grey

(01:12:40):
areas. This is where we have ourmost important conversations
about the world, as well asfinding joy and happiness. Yeah,
it would be a very bleak worldwithout art and it would also be
a very black and white world.And that is never a good thing.
No, not at all. And I thinkmaybe a nice way of summarizing

(01:13:00):
and saying thank you for yourtime today is picking up on one
of your books, An Actor'sAlphabet. And the actress
another outstanding actress anda big shout out to Maxine Peake

is her review, her review (01:13:13):
"Like its author, Julie Hesmondhalgh,
this book is brimmingwith wisdom, intelligence,
empathy and humanity it's an absolutemust." And it struck me An
Actor's Alphabet could perhapsread as an Alphabet for Life.

(01:13:34):
Well, that's very kind of you tosay thank you, Paula. I mean I
wrote it you know, it's a bookfor actors primarily. But as
I've said to lots of people, Ihope that it has something
beyond that about the way thatwe look at the world and, and
the place of art and artists inour world in our society and,

(01:13:56):
and also a bit of a manifestofor the way that I would like to
live, ideally. And, you know, Ihope that people can get
something of that from it too.Yeah, thank you. And listeners,
I will be signposting on Julie'sepisode page, links to Arts
Emergency and also links to TakeBack theatre and I will pop on

(01:14:18):
anything else Julie may suggestto me. I don't want to say
goodbye Julie. You're myfavorite stick of rock. And
thank you so much for your timetoday. Thank you, Paula. Thank
you for all you do what abrilliant podcast it is. Thank you.