Attitude in a Straight Jacket? LGBT+ History Month

Described as “an obscenely talented man.” Matthew Todd is a multi, award-winning writer, playwright, broadcaster and sometime performer. He was also the editor of the UK’s best-selling gay magazine, Attitude, for 8 years. During this time, Matthew interviewed countless celebrities, idols and icons, including Madonna, Elton John and Lady Gaga. For his very last issue in 2016, he made history. HRH Prince William was photographed for the front cover of Attitude, making his first appearance in the gay press and issuing the first Royal statement against homo, bi, and transphobic bullying. This was statement publishing. The Art of the Attitude front cover was glossy, distinct and stylish, it featured photographs of both gay and straight celebrities; everyone was welcome. But what lay behind those front covers was an even bigger and personal story, one that has informed what some would say, is life-saving work today. Matthew’s insights into gay culture and his own lived experience, was telling him a very different story; not everyone did in fact, feel welcome. He was witnessing a disproportionate number of gay people suffering from anxiety, depression, addiction, suicidal thoughts and behaviour. Despite big life statements, perfect bodies, out and proud gay attitudes, there was a dysfunction which Matthew identified as the ‘straight jacket of shame.’ In his book, Straight Jacket, How to be Gay and Happy, he examines the socio-political history that lies behind gay culture and how secrecy, being othered, criminalised, bullied and relentlessly judged, became defining characteristics of the straight jacket. No amount of striving for perfectionism can replace shame and Matthew’s book, Straight Jacket, is described as a ‘revolutionary call.’ It's reviewed by Sir Elton John as “an essential read for every gay person on the planet." This interview also marks LGBT+ History Month. References include:

• Conservative, Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher's, homophobic legislation, Section 28 in 1988 and harmful attitudes of the tabloid press.
• Progress from limited rights in 1967 to the Marriage Same Sex Couples Act in 2013
• Making history with HRH Prince William's first appearance on the front cover of a gay magazine, Attitude, in 2016. The first royal statement against homo, bi and transphobic bullying was also issued.
• The tragic murder of a transgender girl, Brianna Ghey, in 2023, motivated in part by hostility towards her trans identity and impact of the dark web. 
• Attitudes in the 70s and 80s, captured in the current, multi award-winning film, All of Us Strangers. Digital streaming is now available in 2024. 

In LGBT+ month and every month, Matthew Todd's landmark book remains as relevant and as important today. This is a book for anyone interested in good mental health, healthy relationships, a kinder society, human rights and not hatred and discrimination.

You can also see Matthew's successful play, Blowing Whistles, 25 April - 25 May at The Turbine Theatre, London. Blowing Whistles is set on the night before Pride in the Park, a gay couple Nigel and Jamie, grapple with the complexities of modern gay relationships. @TurbineTheatre Book soon!

Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.

Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb

Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview, news, reviews and your host are here: www.canartsaveus.com

Discover Matthew Todd: www.matthewtodd.net/

LGBT+ History Month: www.lgbtplushistorymonth.co.uk/

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to

(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? My

(00:50):
guest today is described as an"obscenely talented man." Matthew
Todd is a multi award winningwriter, playwright, broadcaster
and sometime performer. He wasalso the editor of the UK best
selling gay magazine Attitudefor eight years. During that
time, Matthew interviewedcountless celebrities, idols and

(01:12):
icons including Madonna, EltonJohn, and Lady Gaga. For his
very last issue in 2016, he madehistory. His Royal Highness,
Prince William was photographedfor the front cover of Attitude,
making his first appearance inthe gay press and issuing the
first royal statement againsthomo, bi and transphobic

(01:33):
bullying. This was statementpublishing. The art of the
Attitude front cover was glossy,distinct and stylish, it
featured photographs of both gayand straight celebrities.
Everyone was welcome. But whatlay behind those front covers
was an even bigger and personalstory, one that has informed

(01:54):
some would say life saving worktoday. Matthews insights into
gay culture and his own livedexperience was telling him a
very different story. Noteveryone did, in fact, feel
welcome. He was witnessing adisproportionate number of gay
people suffering from anxiety,depression, addiction, suicidal

(02:16):
thoughts and behavior. Despitebig life statements, perfect
bodies out and proud gayattitudes. There was a
dysfunction which Matthewidentified as the Straight
Jacket of shame. In his bookStraight Jacket, How to be
Gay and Happy, he examines thesocio political history that
lies behind gay culture, and howsecrecy, being othered

(02:39):
criminalized, bullied andrelentlessly judged became
defining characteristics of thatstraight jacket. Striving for
perfectionism can't compensatefor shame and Matthews book is
described as a "revolutionarycall" by responding to a mental
health crisis. Straight Jacket isreviewed by Sir Elton John as "an

(03:01):
essential read for every gayperson on the planet." As part of
LGBT+ History Month, we're luckyenough to have Matthew as our
guest today. Hello, Matthew, andwelcome to Can Art Save Us.
Hello, thanks for having me.Nice to be with you.
It's fantastic, I doappreciate you making the time.
So Matthew, what reallyintrigued me having read your

(03:26):
book and of course, it's hugelysuccessful, you were in fact,
often looking for reasons not towrite it. And I wondered if that
was the personal exposure youwere putting yourself through
or was it fears aboutsensationalism overtaking the
purpose of the book perhaps?

(03:48):
That's a good question. I mean,it's quite a while since I wrote
it came out in 2016. And I had afew years after it came out,
when the paperback came outtalking about it all the time.
And actually, this is the firsttime I've done an interview about
it for for quite a while. Sowhen you were reading out all
that stuff. I was thinking oh. Ihave said that before that I

(04:14):
was looking for reasons not to doit. I think maybe it's partly
because it as I talked about inthe book, it kind of goes
against the grain of what kindof gay culture is. You know,
everyone knows that gay cultureis you know, like about pride
and, you know, it's like flagwaving, and it's all kind of

(04:36):
celebratory and stuff. And thiskind of, you know, I assert in the
book that as you said, you know,that's not the whole story that
underneath that there's a lot ofpain. There's a lot of problems.
There's a lot of it's a drugissue for you know, not
everybody, I say in the book overand over and over and over and
over again, the majority of LGBTpeople I know are living happy,

(04:56):
healthy lives, the majority are notyou know, don't have problems
with drink or drugs. So,whatever it may be, but there is
a disproportionate problem, youknow, body image issues and
suicide ideation and drugs andeating disorders and all these
kinds of things. So it was kindof a difficult thing and a
painful thing, you had to goagainst the grain. And partly,
that's what Attitude did, itkind of evolved to be this kind

(05:20):
of gay magazine, which wasslightly different, which didn't
really rely on advertising from,you know, gay bars and clubs and
the gay world, quote, unquote,maybe like some of the other gay
magazines did. So we were ableto kind of speak a bit more
freely and gotten that, youknow, we were known for, you
know, for pushing boundaries alittle bit and talking about

(05:40):
issues that maybe some of theother gay press didn't. So it's
partly that, but I guess, yeah,also, just the fact that was
just very painful to, to talkabout all of this stuff. And,
you know, we were saying justearly on, jumping on the line,
you know, when you're working asan editor of a gay magazine,
it's a very strange thing.Because you're dealing with, you

(06:01):
know, interviewing celebrities,and, you know, exciting people,
people that you grew up loving.And then you're pushing a kind
of political agenda and interviewingprime ministers and MPs and
things like that. But also,you're dealing with some of
these really difficult issuesthat you're constantly being
written to by readers saying,you know, I've got a problem

(06:22):
with drugs, or you've got quitea lot of prison people in prison
would would write and say, I'min prison for this reason, or
that reason. Please, can youhelp me please, can you send me
a copy of a copy of themagazine, or parents getting in
touch saying their child's takentake their own life, so it's
very intense as well. So it wasvery much about kind of wading
into that really deep, painfulstuff, which was really hard.

(06:45):
And also, that no one had reallyspoken in depth about these
problems. In the UK, there's abook called The Velvet Rage,
which is an American book, whichno one had actually heard of,
when I became editor ofAttitude. I hadn't heard about
it. But when I went intorecovery, for some of my own
issues, a therapist gave a copyto me, and I wrote about it in a
issue in 2010 about Velvet Rage, Isaid, people should read it. And

(07:08):
everybody did. And now it'sconsidered to be like a classic
book. And it's in all kinds ofbookshops and stuff. So it was
just difficult, a bit scary andwondering whether people would
push, you know, the readerswould push back because gay
culture, like I said, is, youknow, so much focused on, you
know, the celebratory aspects,though, whether or not people
would want to hear that. So itwas it felt a little bit scary

(07:29):
at the time. Yeah,
it sounds like a great act ofcourage, to me courage and
compassion. Um, you've taken a,you took a very active role. And
really, you were insisting Iguess, on getting to the brutal
truth. So it wasn't some sortof, you know, tribal betrayal

(07:51):
you know, taking off the glossof how gay culture is normally
perceived. It was theimportance, the fundamental
importance of taking an honestlook at what was perhaps
creating a mental health crisisfor so many gay people that you

(08:11):
were either meeting or hearingabout.
Yeah, it's funny because Iremember years ago, when I was
deputy editor of Attitude, we dida feature on the high levels of
suicide amongst gay and bisexualmen. And I don't think we were
aware of any research at thattime. Or maybe we just didn't
come across it or know how toaccess it. But I remember
thinking, you know, that timethat wasn't led by me, though. I

(08:34):
mean, it was all of us under theprevious editor, Adam Matera,
but I remember us having aconversation then oh, you
know is that okay, they're verynegative stories. And there were a
couple of contributors, one ofthe senior contributors who
criticized us for doing thatthing, it was such a negative
story. But it was an importantthing to talk about it's an
important thing to talk about.Because it is true. We know now

(08:55):
for sure that there are highlevels in amongst gay men and
the LGBTQ wider community. Andyeah, is is painful. But it's
funny, because I remember somequite famous broadcaster who I had
sent the book to before it cameout. He said, I think the book
is fantastic. But I think youmight get attacked in the street
for saying some of these things.And none of that's happened.

(09:17):
None of that's happened. All thereaction has been completely
positive. And now, it's not acontroversial thing. Eight years
down the line. It's not acontroversial thing to talk
about this now. It's, it's it'swidely accepted amongst the LGBT
community that there are theseproblems and, and we understand,
you know, it's, it's an obviousthing, really, but if you grow

(09:38):
up, you know, being told, youknow, sometimes explicitly by
people by your parents orteachers or whatever, that
you're not good enough, but alsowe're receiving this message
from society that you're notgood enough or not acceptable
and not legal, you know, in somecases around the world still,
certainly was that way when Iwas growing up, that you're

(09:59):
likely to not have very goodself esteem and some of the
issues that come from that. So,yeah, we're in a different place
now, I think. Yeah,
it's very interesting, becauseundoubtedly, we can say there's
a different place in terms ofprogress that's been made in
some ways, but at the same time,your book is so relevant still,

(10:20):
it's it's still such animportant reference point. And
how progressive Do you thinkthings have been? Since you
wrote this book in terms ofmental health awareness,
specifically within the gaycommunity? Well,
I think we're definitely talkingabout it now. And I think that

(10:42):
there's a there's a generalacceptance, you know, I often
hear from people that get in contract with me still, this
this week, actually, sort of acouple of people have got in
contact saying, My therapistgave me a copy of your book. And
another person said, I read yourbook, and I recommend it to
everybody. And I just noticed,I don't google myself, very

(11:03):
often, but I was, I was justlooking at the book in books on
Amazon the other day, and I justout of interest, just checked to
see where it where Straight Jacketwas on the Amazon rankings
list and it was numberthree, on the most gifted list
in some LGBT category. Yeah,which is interesting that I hear
that a lot that people buy it fortheir friends. So it's

(11:25):
definitely that we're talkingabout it that said, I still meet
people who have not heard aboutit. And I still think I still
think it's a sensitive thing. Ido think I think it's still
difficult for people in quote,unquote, minority groups, and
we're all in most of us are insome some kind of minority group
in one way or another. I stillthink it's difficult to step

(11:45):
back. Because the wholenarrative so much now is
pointing at other people. Youdid this to me, You did this to
me, You did this to me, whereasthe book says, yeah, these
things were done to us. Butwe're the ones left with the
scars, if we have them. And likeI say, not everybody does. But
if you have those scars, youcan't wait for somebody else to
fix you. You have to, in somerespects, you know, to take

(12:07):
responsibility for fixingyourself, you have to make the
call, you have to ask for help.You have to put in action and
you know, go into recovery orstop using drugs or stop
drinking or whatever it may be.So something that's not always
an easy thing for anyone tohear. And minority groups, I
think are sensitive to thoseconversations. But yeah, we've

(12:27):
definitely we've definitely madesome progression. And
it's interesting when you talkabout scars, because of course
the scarring can start at anextremely young age, and you
even position yourself in thebook as being aware at only the
age of five, I'll quote you "ofoverwhelming fragility and fear

(12:51):
and understanding that I wasn'tlike other boys."
Yeah, that phrase has become acliche now, I'm not like
other boys, because you justhear it so much from from, you
know, gay and bisexual men. Andthe same for lesbian women
when they were growing upnot feeling like other girls. I

(13:11):
think, yeah, just thatawareness. And it's really
interesting hearing in theconversation, as well as the
bullying of trans people thathappens at the moment in the
media. And this kind of constantnarrative of you can't possibly
know. And I totally understand,you know, if you're not LGBT,
coming to this, you're thinkingwell, how on earth can anyone
ever know anything like thatwhen they're five or six. And I

(13:31):
certainly didn't know I was gaywhen I was five. But I
absolutely knew I was different.And I absolutely knew that I was
being treated differently byother people. And I absolutely
knew that it didn't feel likelife was safe for me, you know,
and then I realized I was gayabout 10, or 11. And I knew what

(13:52):
that meant. So these are reallycomplicated, difficult
discussions to have. But
it's also shocking to read, andit may have been around the age
of 10, or 11 actually, whenyou're at school, that you
actually had a teacher thatwould really make inappropriate,
homophobic remarks directly toyou.

(14:14):
Who was that? I can't remember?Secondary School, or
primary school? Youjust, I mean that, you know, in
the 70s, in the 80s, you'd justhear, you know, negativity about
gay people all the time. Itwasn't, it was just as casual
thing and I think I'm aware alittle bit of some parents kind
of thinking back at it now, theway I felt and the way I was

(14:37):
interacting with people thatmaybe some parents were picking
up on the fact that I was campor gay or whatever you want to
call it, but in secondaryschool, yeah, I mean, there were
there were various teachers, one in particular that we I
think, you know, was picking upon maybe my gender nonconforming
ways or whatever beingeffeminate, whatever you want to

(14:57):
call it. He just was reallyaggressive too. When I had
teachers using derogatory gaywords, it's just just at that
time, there just was noawareness that Yeah, well, there
are going to be gay, you know,certainly in secondary school
when people are 11,12 13,14 15,16.Of course, there's there's going

(15:20):
to be people there who are, whoare realizing that they are gay,
and LGBTQ and so on. And funnilyenough, actually, I've been back
to my, my, my senior schoolseveral times now, I think last
year, I went back and gave atalk to the LGBT group that they
have for sixth formers, whichwas great, it was really great
to see that things have changednow. And they take safeguarding

(15:44):
and you know, just allowingpeople to be who they are, and
making sure they're antibullying policies and so on,
really seriously, in my oldschool now. So that's, that's
good. I think that's that's aquite a lot of schools do that.
Now. I think things have changeda lot. Yeah.
Because I think the point thatyou make by that personal example,

(16:06):
you know, from being as young asfive, how you felt about
yourself, or overwhelmingfragility, and fear, in terms of
this idea of a straight jacketgoing on, that can start very
soon. And if you've got a schoolor a school policy, that is
failing, diversity, andinclusion, that must, that must

(16:30):
feel like a very fearful placeand a real sense of paralysis in
terms of who you are.
I think my generation was had itparticularly hard in the sense
that Section 28 was the law thatMrs. Thatcher brought in in
1988. So that came in, whichmeant that, it was meant to, was

(16:51):
meant to prohibit schools fromteaching that gay relationships
were normal, or like traditionalfamily relationships. But
essentially, what it did wasjust demonize gay people. And
the media was doing that, youknow, it was the heyday of The
Sun in particular, and the rightwing press. And New Labour was
just at that point, beginning tosupport gay rights, or the right

(17:13):
wing media and the government atthe time, weaponized, that so
basically tried to portray Labouras being this party that wanted
to basically turn your kids gay,and they would all get AIDS and
they would all die. And that waskind of the message, obviously,
HIV and AIDS was happening,which is a massive, terrible
thing that that occurred when Iwas, you know, 11,12 13,14, which

(17:37):
made it even worse. I thinkthose things all came together.
And it was a particularlydifficult time. So you know,
there were no gay MPs. Therewere no you know, you didn't
have you Alan Carrs your GregNortons all these kind of like
people that were not out, it wasvery, you know, just people just
didn't really come out, really.And if they did, they were
treated like lunatics. Andobviously, it was illegal. You

(17:57):
know, it was legal to have gaysex over the age of 21 from
1967. Yeah, but, you know, stillthe age of consent was 21 for
gay people then, and 16 foreveryone, everybody else. And
they're all these kind of, youknow, you could still be legally
fired from your job for beinggay. So just it just, I mean, I

(18:20):
always think we were like theword frozen. I was just like,
frozen. I just didn't, I didn'thave any concept of who I was.
No role models, no books. Iremember searching through the
school library for just to findany reference to gayness. The
only one I could find waslooking up the word
homosexuality in the dictionary.And remember, it said, whatever
it said, and then, it's aperversion. So it just was

(18:41):
completely, you just didn't haveany sense of kind of a future
what's the future gonna be?You'd never never dreamt that
you'd ever be able to getmarried. You know, when I after
I left university, I begansupporting Stonewall, I became
very political, because you hadall these years of being
repressed. But even then, youknow, even when I was working at
Stonewall on answering calls,and you know, stuffing envelopes

(19:03):
and things like that, and doingadmin, I don't think we really
ever dreamt that you'd have samesex marriage in our lifetime,
really. So it's amazing how muchhas changed? Yeah,
it is really significant, isn'tit, I mean, that that would seem
so incredibly radical as to whatyou thought you would ever see.

(19:25):
And in terms of this episode,being part of LGBT History
Month, it's really significant.When you reference Section 28.
And for listeners, particularlyinternational listeners who may
not be familiar with that storyof Section 28, in UK that was
Maggie Thatcher's Tory Britainwhen she was Prime Minister. It

(19:49):
was 1988 legislation that madeit illegal for any local
authority to promotehomosexuality, which the
phrasing alone now, I findbaffling. But there was a really
alarming conference statementthat Maggie Thatcher made, which

(20:10):
was "children who need to betaught to respect traditional
moral values are being taughtthey have an inalienable right
to be gay. All of those childrenare being cheated to have a sound
start in life." I mean, this is apretty frightening political

(20:31):
context, isn't it that you wereliving as a young person
yourself? Yeah,
in fact, she made that speech onthe eve of my 15th birthday. I
think.
So where do you go with that?What on earth do you think
as a 15 year old? I mean, youhave effectively been

(20:53):
criminalized.
It has me choking with theemotion of it all. No it's not
that. Yeah, I mean, I think Imean, I think it just kind of
sent me mad, really, if I'mhonest. I mean, we were just
talking earlier on that I'm notfeeling very well today. And
that's important, I'm still dealingwith health problems, which come

(21:15):
from that time from just beingin the deep, deep trauma of
existing in that way. I mean, Ithink actually, to be honest,
it's difficult, just beingdifferent. But growing up in
that time, it just was just, youjust not able to be what you're
meant to be when you're ateenager, which is meant to be

(21:35):
just, you know, finding out whoyou are, and just being free.
But I've got a breathingdisorder. I've spent, you know,
I'm middle aged and I spent my lifetrying to find out what's wrong
with me like physically, becauseI've got, you know, some mental
health problems and physical problems, and the two have
always been treated separately,but they are you know, they're
very much intertwined. I've gota breathing disorder and

(21:55):
hyperventilation disorder whereI breathe, like panic, like a
like a basset hound, basically.And I was going to the doctor,
even when I was 14 or 15 aboutit, saying I can't breathe
properly, and they thought maybeI had asthma. And I think it
just was anxiety. Because whenyou're stuck in this fight or
flight, state where you cannotrelax cannot be yourself it

(22:18):
just, it just dysregulates yourentire system. You know, you
just you, you just thought youcan't relax, you like you're at
school, you're thinking, Am Igoing to be found out? What will
happen? Will I be kicked out of school? Will I be
beaten up? Also, then you gohome and you think, am I going
to be found out at home? Therelationship which is this key

(22:39):
relationship obviously, youknow, the biggest relationship
you have when you're a kid withyour parents, is that really
real, Will they really love meif they find out that I'm gay?
Well, they kick me out of homeand there were always stories
you'd hear that people were kickedout from home, I remember The Sun,
the agony aunt, Dear Deirdre, she'snow the Agony Aunt on This Morning
did a big special on kids coming outto their parents. And I remember

(23:05):
the narrative of something beingabout like, it's a devastating
blow to the parents or somethinglike that, me paraphrasing, but
basically, it was framed as thisis a terrible problem for
parents. Yeah, it was not. Youknow, what about the kid? And
for a long time, you know, whatcoming out the narrative was
always, you know, how did youkind of take, you know, what do
you do you know, this thing youdid your parents? How have your

(23:27):
parents been? It's never reallybeen, actually, how was it for
you? You know, how is it for akid having to hold that in?
Because, you know, there aresome kind of fringe activists
claim that, you know, being gayis a choice? I don't believe
that at all, it certainly wasn'tfor me, you know, and I wouldn't
have chosen it because it's beentroubling I wouldn't have chosen to
have an anxiety disorder andhave all that I've just been

(23:49):
talking about. So it'sdefinitely and actually that,
that, that Agony problem page Iremember, there was a story
where a mother had written insaying, I think the headline
was, I read this, the headlinewas, I loved him, but now, I wish
he was dead. And it was a storyabout a well, it was a mother
writing in saying my son was inthe Navy, I think certainly the

(24:09):
army or the armed forces and he'd been to fight in the Falklands
War and come back, considered to bea hero, and then he'd come out
as gay and she said she wishedhe died in the war, so it's really
painful. It's too brutal forwords. And when I when I
remember that, it's just like,it's no wonder I'm still not

(24:32):
well, you know, havinghaving to deal with it. That's
right, because legacy is prettymuch a permanent impact other
than as you're highlighting,depending on you know, how we
maybe self empower ourselves,you know, to cope with that, but
in terms of your health impact,I mean, it certainly sounds like

(24:56):
you're describing panic attacks,acute anxiety and stress
that manifests in a breathingdisorder with triggers that can
be around you pretty much nonstop. And it reminds me actually
of Brene Brown, who you refer toin your book, the brilliant

(25:19):
Brene Brown again, for listenerswho may not be familiar is a
research professor at theUniversity of Houston. And you
can actually find her TED Talksstill on YouTube, they went
viral. They are absolutelybrilliant talks, because she
researches shame, courage andvulnerability. And it's really

(25:41):
open and positive, thinkingabout how we can change the
traps that we sometimes imposeupon ourselves in terms of
mental health crisis or negativethinking, for example. But in
terms of shame, she definesthree essential ingredients,

(26:07):
secrecy, silence, and judgment,they are the essential three
ingredients for shame. How doyou respond to that, Matthew?
Well, yeah, I mean, shame is areally big part of that. There's
a famous study that I mentionedin the book from Kaiser
Permanente Health Care Center inOakland, California, where they

(26:28):
basically looked into the effectof childhood trauma on on kids
and whether that had an impactinto later life. And they call
these things ACES or adversechildhood experiences, they
basically wanted to see if, didthe number of adverse childhood
experiences childhoodexperiences in impact on whether

(26:52):
you're more likely to have youknow, problems with depression,
anxiety, addiction, suicide,ideation, all these different
things, mental health problems,as adults and some other took
into account all these differentthings as aces adverse childhood
experiences. So you know, beingsexually abused, being
physically abused, even havingdivorced parents having either

(27:14):
death of a parent or being in acar crash, or oh, you know,
whole range of different things.And of course, as it sounds,
again, it sounds obvious now,of course, the higher the number
of ACES that someone had beenthrough when they were a kid,
the greater the chances theywould, they would have of having
this whole variety of problems.And the biggest one, the most

(27:36):
impactful one, was what theycalled chronic recurrent
humiliations of being told,you're bad, you're wrong. And I
think that's what as I say, inthe book, that's what LGBTQ
people go through, anothertherapist called Dr. Joe court,
who describes gay kids as beingvictims of covert cultural,

(27:59):
cultural abuse. So when you'rejust being told, and of course,
it's slightly less now in theWest, or in most Western
countries, but it's still thereto some degree, but when you're
talking about religion, you'renot acceptable, you're just not
okay, you're not okay, thatconstant message, you just come
to start to believe it. And whenyou believe in, you have this
kind of toxic shame, whereyou're just, inside of you

(28:21):
you're not thinking, Oh, I'mjust someone who occasionally
you know, like, everybody's Ican make mistakes, I can do good
things, I can do bad things, youstart to think there's something
wrong with me, I'm fundamentallyflawed, I'm fundamentally,
fundamentally bad, even if it'snot a conscious thought, you
know, subconsciously just startto come to believe because those
are messages that you're beingtold from society all the time,

(28:42):
and so yeah, that those arethose are those impacts and that
big thing, you know, she talksabout, you know, secrecy. That's
a that's a key part to it, aswell. Like I say, I haven't I
haven't thought massivelyabout the book for a while now,
but but there's a chapter in thebook, I think it's called it's
called False Selves and SurvivalSkills. And I think, funnily
enough, I was just listening toBoy George's autobiography, new

(29:05):
autobiography, and he talksabout that, and I think, I know
he's read Straight Jacket, he mentioned the phrase False Selves
in this idea that when you're akid, you have to create this
other identity as a way tosurvive. And I think that's why
there's so much of those kind ofbig personalities in the gay
community, you know, when peoplebecome comedians or people
become drag queens, or peoplebecome very funny, or very

(29:25):
bitchy, and I did that as well.You know, when I was in school,
I became this kind of, like,hyper maniac, hysterical
lunatic, that was always beingfunny always, you know, ready
with a kind of cutting barb as away to survive, you know, so if
people were kind of these boyswere kind of physically
threatening to me I'd be bitchyor witty or funny or make them

(29:49):
laugh as a way of getting out ofit. But um, you know, I'm not,
I'm not saying it's all bad orwhatever. But I think that did
start to, that contributedto making me a little bit crazy,
because I just did not know whoI was. I just, you know, when
you're constantly at this kindof la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
la, la, you're acting fromcoming from that that level the

(30:10):
whole time. And I did that foryears, you know, when when I was
working afterward all through my20s until I had this crash, and
I started to realize, Oh, myGod, what is underneath all of
this? Who am I? How can I be anauthentic human being? Because
I'm operating from this kind ofplace that isn't really real
really. Yeah,
that's so interesting, whatyou're saying. And that idea of,

(30:30):
you know, creating big or hugepersonalities, kind of partly
pre-empting identity attack. Soyou're kind of being bigger than
the attack, you're ahead of thegame. But as you were saying
that it's incredibly hard tomaintain, but it's also that
struggle of surviving negativelanguage, which, you know, may

(30:53):
have changed somewhat todaycompared to say, when you were a
teenager, but nevertheless, theproblems do remain, perhaps in
in different ways. I'm wonderingactually, if you have seen the
film All of Us Strangers? Yeah.Oh, my word. I can't recommend

(31:18):
it enough personally. I saw itrecently. So to let listeners
know, All of Us Strangers, it'sincredibly, emotionally powerful
story. The actor, Andrew Scott,is somebody who is a gay man

(31:42):
suffering with such deep,emotional agony. He is finding
it difficult to make connectionsand have relationships and his
co star Paul Mescal, equallyastounding, just plays
absolutely crucifying agony. Andthis is set in the 80s. So it's

(32:05):
that context of a very more overtif you like, homophobia at that
time. But what I wanted tohighlight Matthew was Claire
Foy, the actress that playsAndrew Scott's mum, the language
I mean, I don't know about you.But of course, she plays

(32:29):
brilliantly that innocence,whilst simultaneously saying the
most incredibly hurtful things.I mean, I was like
literally cringing in my seat.References like your special
friend, as opposed to yourboyfriend or your partner. And I

(32:52):
think probably the worst linesomething along the lines of
"Well, obviously, no mother wantsto have a gay child." And Andrew,
the actor, he, he just respondsso brilliantly doesn't he, like
the slightest flicker in hisface that acknowledges that that

(33:14):
is a really, really painfulthing to hear, but he's
nevertheless hanging on to thatconnection with his mother.
Yeah, I think that's, that'sthe saddest part of all of this
in a way that I think, you know,especially that time in the 80s,
just really undermined people'srelationships. You know,

(33:34):
parents had been robbed as well,you know, parents have been
robbed of their relationshipswith their children, because
of just stupid culture, youknow, Mrs. Thatcher or the
Tory government but the mediain particular, The Sun is the
one I always think of, inparticular, with the editor at
the time, Kelvin MacKenzie, youwas just savage against

(33:55):
gays, not just one editorial inthe sun, malicious, weekly, you
know, day in day out kind ofattacks on gays and lesbians. As
you know, we didn't really talkabout bisexual or transgender
people, then just gays andlesbians they were constantly
attacking, but in one editorialthey were referring to gay
people as gay, gay, gayterrorists, you know, so this
constant kind of messaging so,like, it's quite hard to go

(34:17):
against the grain, on one levelfor people for people to be able
to. I mean, I still think thisis the case. I mean, I loathe the
media and I talk about talkabout it all the time with
climate change is the thing Ifocus on a lot. And I think
they've completely failed us inthat respect, and making people
aware of how serious climatechange is. But I think it's very
hard. When you're being told asa regular person, by the media

(34:40):
constantly, think this, think this, think this, it's
very difficult to kind of haveyour own mind and think outside
of the box. So yeah, it's just, I mean, any gay
person of my age and younger,will just be knowing, having
those flawed relationships and Ihave a great relationship with
my parents now and youknow, most of my friends do. But

(35:03):
most of us have gone throughsome real difficulties and
hearing our parents sayingreally difficult things. And
someone who told me thatthey, their parents threatened
to poison them, when they werelike 11 or 12, if you turned out
to be gay,
I just can't absorb it. It'sjust
incredible. And I think it'sbeen very moving actually, this

(35:25):
terrible case of Brianna Ghey,who was murdered recently. And I
think, hearing her parents talkabout her so lovingly, I mean,
not even come into it that, oh,it was terrible having a trans
child, that that's not an issuethat just been so completely
loving and supportive. And Ithink that's probably a place
that a huge amount of parentsare in now. But actually hearing

(35:47):
that out loud. I mean, I burstinto tears when I heard her
talking about her daughter,because even though it's years
and years later that the scarsare still there, there's still a
part of me that is notintellectually, but kind of
emotionally surprised when Ihear people saying they care
about their gay kids, there'sstill a part of me that keys
into that remembering what itfelt like when I was 12,

(36:10):
thinking that will never me,that's not possible, you'll have
to hide from them forever,because they're never going to
support you. Because that's whatthat's what society was kind of
telling you. You know, societywas telling you, you're worse,
you're the worst, you know, youwill, you probably would catch
AIDS, and I'm not stigmatizingpeople with HIV or AIDS, of
course, because loads of myfriends are HIV positive. But it
was like, You're gonna catchAIDS, you're going to spread

(36:31):
aids, you're going to be apedophile, you're going to end
up in prison, you're an enemy,you're a threat to children,
you're a threat to everybody.You're a threat to society.
That's what you were toldconstantly. And so yeah, it's
still so when you, when youcome out, it's, it's a big,
it's a big deal. Yeah.
And, and so much of this ishinged on language and trauma,

(36:55):
whether it's, you know, directattacks in the playground,
whether it's whether it's themedia, whether it's
unintentional trauma in yourfamily, but nevertheless, you
know, as the film All of Us Strangers depicts, so well, the
the trauma of language is alasting thing, and it's very scary

(37:18):
that, in addition, in terms ofthe impact of social media, the
language used in socialmedia, and also visual language,
and particularly when it's usedfor harmful purposes, you know,
so much of that lay behind thisabsolutely shocking tragedy,

(37:38):
regarding the murder of Brianna,Ghey, and, you know, a murder by
two other teenagers. This is soextreme, isn't it, Matthew,
because this is another stepbeyond language, beyond social
media. This is also the darkweb, these teenagers were

(38:01):
absorbed in the dark web and intorture sites.
Yeah, I mean, the world's a verykind of bleak place in lots of
respects, isn't it. You know, Isympathize with my friends, who
are parents now that, you know,do you give your child a
teenager or phone or whatever,because there's just absolute

(38:23):
carnage and horror out there onthe internet? And I have a lot
of sympathy for I mean, I don'tknow, God knows what that is
doing to young people today, youknow, having access to
everything that's on theinternet. And I think a lot of
nice people don't realize whatis on the internet. So yeah,
it's it's a very, but even, youknow, like, in terms of what

(38:47):
happened to Brianna, you know,like, the, you know, the judge
said that this was, the murderwas motivated in part by
transphobia that the judgefound, and, you know, the way
trans people are talked about inour society is horrendous. You
know, I've got friends, I've gotwell meaning friends, I do
understand that some peoplehave, you know, issues and

(39:08):
questions and are wrestlingwith, I don't know, the politics
of transness or whatever youwant to call it. And I think
there are some people who have,you know, who who are, who have
questions they're trying tounderstand, but the way the
discussion is being held is justso dehumanizing and horrendous,
and kind of, you know, prettyviolent. You know, this is very,

(39:29):
it's very triggering, it's verysimilar to the way it was, you
know, like, you think that thebiggest problem we have
in the country is transgenderpeople, if you read the media, I
mean, it's just incredible, incredible. So that will be
having an impact on young transpeople for sure. So you know
the other side of that, the goodthing is that actually the, one

(39:50):
of the places I actually see themost positive, you know, human
representation of trans peopleat the moment is on Tick Tock
actually, because people areable to reach out and show who
they are and, you know, talk toeach other and find each other
on that site, Tick Tock, so the modern world has its, you
know, negative points and itspositive points, I suppose.

(40:13):
And it's, it's interesting,because at the same time, you
know, you do have to be verybrave, there's a lot of courage
involved isn't there to stand byyour identity. You know, your
own authenticity. And that'ssomething else that Brene Brown
talks about having the courageto stand alone, for example, or

(40:37):
the call to courage where shesays, "Stop walking through the
world, looking for confirmationthat you don't belong, you will
always find it, because you'vemade that your mission. " How does
that resonate with you, Matthew?Well,
that does resonate a bit in thesense of what I said earlier on

(40:57):
that you do have to takeresponsibility to some degree as
well, because you can constantlylive in all these terrible
things have happened to me. AndI think there's a line in the
Straight Jacket, which is from therecovery kind of rooms, where I
say something like, in terms ofgetting better and recovering

(41:18):
and, you know, finding a waythrough all this is that only
you can do this, but you can'tdo it alone. In the sense of,
you know, you need to ask forhelp. I mean, I've got a friend
at the moment who is reallystruggling with various issues,
which I won't go into, but he'snot read my book, funnily
enough, he's, you know, someoneI've known for a long time, and

(41:41):
he's still resistant to thisidea that he needs to ask for
help. So friends are saying thatwe can help you, we can help
you, we can help you. And he'slike, no, no, no, I'm doing it
my way. I'm doing it my way Iand I think you have to, at some
point, reach out, ask for helptake other people's advice,
whether that's going intorecovery or going to see a
therapist or just, you know,just telling somebody, and that

(42:02):
speaks to what Brene Brown saysas well, but it's like, you
know, shame only can kind offester. When it's kind of in the
darkness. So you know, when youdo start, when you stop keeping
secrets, and you start talkingto people and telling your truth
to people, it changeseverything, which is why, you
know, I'm talking about, youknow, 12 Step groups, you know,

(42:23):
Alcoholics Anonymous andNarcotics Anonymous and
Sexaholics Anonymous, and so onin Straight Jacket because I
think there's a real powerthere, not for everybody,
they're not the be all and endall. But there's a real power
from going to a group like that,and talking to other people
who've had that exact sameexperience. So if you go to your
doctor or a therapist, that canbe absolutely fantastic and be
the perfect route for lots ofpeople. And I would recommend

(42:45):
people speaking to therapistsand GPs and so on. But they
haven't, they haven't always hadthat experience. So they don't
always know exactly how itfeels. Whereas 12 Step groups,
you will literally hear peoplewho've had almost the exact same
experiences you've had.
It would be very welcome as wellto get out of us in them

(43:05):
narrative. So I find itdisturbing how divisive
conversations and and debatesare becoming around sexual
politics, that it can't reallybe about any one group asserting
more power over another group.There is so much mutual respect

(43:25):
involved. But there's so mucheducation that's needed to be
involved as well. And as youwere saying some of that
education perhaps is also goingthrough your own therapy or your
own self awareness andunderstanding. And depending on
how much you might want to talkabout this in the book, you did

(43:45):
say you undertook a traumareduction program at one point,
I think it was a short program.I was interested in how helpful
that was for you. Was that aturning point? Was that after a
rock bottom moment?
Yeah, I've done everything now.Thrown it all at the wall. Yeah, I

(44:08):
did a thing called the TraumaReduction Program at the Priory,
which is an outpatient thing fora week where it's a very intense
course of therapy and goingthrough things that happened to
me growing up and trying to undosome of that trauma, it's
great, you know, it's reallypowerful and yeah, there's big
emotional release if it workswell. I was sobbing and again,

(44:29):
panting like a basset hound,which is a common a common thing
in my life and letting it all outthat was really great and it was
really transformative. It didn'tlast for me I was still drinking
then I think drinking is a is athing that isn't massively well
understood generally by thetherapeutic community. Like I
would say if anyone's got anyserious, you know, problems of

(44:51):
low self esteem or, you know,anxiety or depression if you if
you are serious about changingthat stop drinking. You don't
have to have stopped drinkingforever, but just stop drinking
until you've got a handle on itbecause alcohol really seriously
affects you. I mean, the amountof times I've gone to my GP and
said, Oh, I don't feel good andI'm depressed and that no one

(45:12):
ever said to me stop drinking oreven took seriously, you know
how, you know the level at whichI was drinking and I don't drink
anymore haven't drank for 10years, so that's yeah,
it's been a it's been a long along time now. And life is much
better for me without drinking,I've done loads of things. I did a thing
called Lightening Process, whichis a valuable thing to do. I did

(45:35):
a thing called the HoffmanProcess, which they do around
the country, which is this thingfrom California in the 70s,
which was great, was amazing.Again, all these things were
really helpful. None of themwere a permanent, permanent
solution. But at the moment, I'mfocusing on, like I say, health
issues like, like, is there amore of a physiological basis to

(45:57):
as a result of anxiety andtrauma, and I'm just kind of
investigating those roots, whichseemed quite promising. And I
think that's a problem generallywith the way we deal with all of
these things, you know, thatjust everything is treated as
separate. You know, mentalhealth and physical are two
separate things. And I thinkthey're absolutely symbiotic

(46:19):
entwined with each other, youryou know, your, your mental
health can affect your physicalhealth, your physical health can
affect your mental health. So,for me, I think that's the way
we should be going at themoment.
Yeah. And would you say reallykey to personal resilience, you
know, being able to, if youlike, cultivate your mental

(46:43):
fitness, as much as you maythink about cultivating your
physical fitness, in fact,Brianna's mother was on
breakfast News this morningadvocating for effective
mindfulness programs to beintroduced into schools,
advocating for mental fitness,fitness that takes us away from

(47:06):
hate, and anger and negativeautomatic thinking, but to start
taking ownership of how wethink. Yeah,
for sure. I mean, I think that Ithink it's very easy to not
realize how in the grip oftabloid mentality we are in so
when I was younger, you know,you'd hear on the radio, for

(47:27):
instance, discussions about youknow, should should people get
parenting lessons, and kind ofremember listening to a certain
quite well known disc jockeyranting and raving people and
not like back in the day, wewere much tougher with people
don't need lessons to be parents? Well, clearly, I think
a lot of people do need lessonson how to be parents, because

(47:47):
there's a lot of problems outthere. There's a lot of neglect,
there's a you know, there's amonth doesn't go past, we didn't
hear terrible things thathappened to children, because
parents are not equipped or havealcohol problems, drug problems,
I think. So I often wonder whatour what our schools, what
our society is for if we can'tequip people better with how to
deal with, you know, lifechallenges and mental health

(48:09):
challenges, and just basicthings, paying bills and
mortgages and things like that.And yeah, mindfulness and
learning how to, you know, dealwith things you don't feel very
good about yourself. Or ifyou're quick to anger, if we,
you know, like boys at schoolthat get themselves in trouble
with fighting, that we can havea better understanding of,
what's that about? Why does thathappen? What's the background of
these kids? How can we interveneearlier, I think all of those

(48:32):
things are really, reallyimportant, I suppose, as well. I
know that it's kind of got apolitical edge to this podcast,
but that comes into it too,national awareness now on
their mental health and theimportance of talking, I saw
some advert that came up on theTV the other day, two celebrities
saying, oh, let's have a cup oftea and a hob nob and just
talk, how do you feel? That'sgreat. Talking is important.

(48:54):
That is really important. Butalso there's a political aspect
to it that, you know, like,often people want to see a
decent therapist, you have towait ages, sometimes, sometimes,
you know, GPS can get you onreally quickly. But sometimes
it's a very long way. There's along way to have, you know,
assessments of ADHD, or autismor all of those kinds of things.
And often, you know, I hate tosay that, you know, when I was,

(49:15):
you know, editing actually had ahalf decent salary, and not
anymore. I was able to pay tosee, you know, a better
therapist than the ones I wasgiven on the NHS and pay to see
a psychiatrist that can be like400 quid an hour. You know, and
it's really frustrating that,you know, sometimes you really

(49:38):
do need someone who's reallygood at what they do, who really
knows what they're doing. Notthat that's always the case,
because certainly sometimes, youknow, some of the cheaper
therapists I've had, I've seenso many now, that have been
really fantastic too. But thereis a political dimension to this
as well. It's all very well tosay just talk but what happens
if you can't see a therapistbecause, you know, the NHS is,

(49:59):
you know, has been knocked offits feet.
Yeah, yeah, we're talking aboutsuch deep inequalities. For
every for everybody. And, youknow, the mental health crisis
is a soaring crisis, isn't itacross all demographics. In the
UK, waiting lists are virtuallydisastrous, there was news

(50:23):
reports only this week withlocal community centers if
they're lucky enough to still beopen trying to actually
supplement mental healthsupport, because the formal
routes still aren't available,for example. And all of these
inequalities, of course, arecompounding existing problems.

(50:49):
And it's still within a globalcontext of inequalities, and
therefore very difficultmessaging. So whilst as you were
saying earlier, there's beengreat, you know, progress. For
example, you never thought youcould get married when you were
a teenager, you know, as a gayman, for example. But we are in

(51:12):
a significant year, perhaps, interms of the hope for positive
change. So a general electionyear, of course, in your book,
you at the time, you know, youwere referring to 1997, when we
were celebrating Tony Blair'sLabour defeat of as you put it,

(51:33):
the homophobic Tories. And herewe are in 2024. And it's been
over a decade of very, verydifficult, Tory policies, we've
seen poverty escalate, around 50%of the children in the UK are
formerly living in poverty, forexample. We've seen arts cuts,

(51:59):
we've been through austerity,there's constraints, there's new
constraints on the right toprotest, for example, the United
Nations have failed the Torygovernment twice now in terms of
human rights failure. So if wewere looking at 1997, which you

(52:23):
reference in your book, to 2024,what are your hopes in terms of
attitudes and progress that wemight be able to see, with a
general election year, andhopefully, a new government?

(52:48):
Well, it's a big question, isn'tit. Because to be honest, like I
said, earlier on, I focus mainlynow on climate change. And
that's in part because, youknow, people have asked me, you
know, what's the biggest problemfacing LGBT people, I think, you
know, trans people will alwaysacknowledge this huge barrage of

(53:09):
hatred that trans people arereceiving. But in a wider way,
the biggest threat to all of usis, is what's happening to the
planet, because, you know,there's no gay rights on a
broken planet. So that is mymain concern, because we are
heading towards, as DavidAttenborough puts it, the
collapse of human civilization,which no one seems to really

(53:31):
seems to go into the need to goin. And people don't seem to
understand that this is reallyhappening, you know, the planet
spiraling into a calamity, ofwhich will be the end of all,
you know, the things we'vepushed for. So social justice,
and feminism, you know, to stopracism and equality for LGBT
people, all of these things willmean nothing, and will grind to
a screeching halt. And it will essentially be the end of the

(53:52):
world as we know it if we don'tstop what's happening to the
planet. So that is the thingthat I focus on. And I think,
probably, since I've, you know,worked in Stonewall and
Attitude, you know, morethan 20 years working in that
sector. And I feel a little bitdisconnected from it now, I
suppose, because I do think, youknow, I'm older now, middle aged,

(54:12):
50 now, and I guess, I seethings in a more macro sense. I
feel like you said earlier onabout you're not separating
people, I feel that reallystrongly. You know, being gay is
this certainly, you know,certainly part of my life, and
it's written books about who Italk about, I will always talk
about it and stuff, but it'sjust a part of me. And all of

(54:34):
these issues are intertwined,aren't they? You know, like I
said, you know, me being a gayman, some of the problems I had.
Were with the fact that I didn'tget very good help from the NHS,
the therapist and sort of theNHS didn't really understand so
that that's an aspect there. Sothat's not just my gayness, did
you see what I mean? Soeverything is political sorting

(54:55):
out the NHS is really, reallyimportant that will really help
gay people even though it's notsomething seen as Something gay
specific issue that would reallyhelp gave you the same with the
planet. You know, like, when Isee sewage being poured into
rivers that affects gay peopleas much as it affects anybody
just affects us doesn't itaffects all of us as a society.
So I think I'm focused on thoseissues. And that's where I'm

(55:17):
kind of, I think, as the planetcollapses, and you know, we will
go more to the right, you know,because there's economic kind of
problems that come with that.That's when, you know,
minorities of all types getscapegoated more. So things will
be very, very difficult for LGBTpeople. So that's where I kind
of focus my, you know, myattentions in terms of helping

(55:40):
everybody and myself, you know,selfish as well, I'm scared of
what's happening to both for myown self, and say, to my friends
and family, but also for theLGBT community. So to me, I feel
like that's, that's where I feellike we need to be the same with
American Trump, isn't it? It'slike, you know, Trump is
certainly not a specific issuejust to gay people. But it is,
yeah, he's a threat to all ofus. And like, sometimes it is

(56:04):
much, I'm not saying thatspecific LGBT issues aren't
important, because they arelike, especially for trans
people. The demonization oftrans people is shocking. And I
totally would stand with transpeople and march with them and
all the rest of it. But also,there's these other emergencies
that are happening as well. So Ifeel like we are, you know,
people, sometimes people pushback on that and say, oh, you

(56:24):
know, we've got this on ourplate. And I do understand that
some people do, of course, I'mnot saying trans people, it's
your responsibility. But what I'msaying is, we must all
understand that. Unfortunately,this is the hand that the world
has dealt us at the moment.There's a lot of huge problems
on there. There's, you know, theproblem with Russia and the
threat of war and everythingthat's happening in the Middle

(56:45):
East, and just all these reallyawful problems, simply horrible
time at the moment, isn't it. Soit can be completely
overwhelming. And I thinkthat's, for me, I don't know is
that's been a focus, and I'vebeen part of it on identity
stuff, where it's, I feel likeat the moment, I feel like we
need to need to be more aboutunifying income coming together.
And actually, that's been a bigtheme of my work as well. But

(57:05):
I'm just sort of so like,irritated by having to focus on
gay stuff in my life in thepast, because it's just such a
minor thing. Who cares if you'regay? Like, like, when, when
David Cameron, bothDavid Cameron and Tony Blair has
said at times when they've beenasked what their greatest
achievement is, and Tony Blairsaid, Oh, gay rights was is up

(57:26):
there. Because, you know, he wasreally pivotal and bringing, you
know, in a lot of, you know,getting rid of unequal laws and
stuff. And I'm really gratefulto him, he did that David
Cameron has said, oh, one of themost things I'm most proud of is
same sex marriage. And I getthat, but also I don't think it
should be. It should have justto me, it's just like, when gay
marriage came in, it had to bethis huge drama where it was

(57:46):
discussed in the media thatendless radio phone ins and
rallying Tory MPs who were allagainst it. And actually the
majority of Tory MPs did voteagainst same sex marriage even
though David Cameron wasresponsible for pushing it
through. My point just being isthat it's such a minor thing. It
should have been right, Okay.Take two weeks, we'll fill in a
form or change the law move onbecause there's just so many

(58:06):
more life and death importantissues. It should just be
equality, you know, genderequality, race, equality, you
know, trans equality, gay,these should be simple things to
fix. That shouldn't be the hugedramas that they aren't,
shouldn't take up so much of ourtime and energy. But
unfortunately, the world isn'tlike that, is it. No, no. You've

(58:27):
got me ranting.
That's good. I like a rant.That's really good. So
unfortunately, it brings me tomy last question, because we've
raced through our hour. And soyou've obviously been involved
in the creative industries,you've written plays. You've

(58:48):
you've used and embraced thearts for your own expression.
And so I'm interested in thequestion, Can art save us? How
is it that the arts can maybehelp us cope with all of those
dramas and traumas andoverwhelming world events that

(59:13):
we've just been touching upon?
It's funny because a friend ofmine who's trans said to me a
while back maybe a year ago,said how was it that you
achieved gay equality? And she'sa bit younger than me. So she
was, you know, asking how andthen the 90s and ongoing, how,
how things change, and I think areally big part of that was

(59:34):
films and especially TV, I thinksoap opera characters. What
we're seeing might seem to be,you know, a little bit trite but
actually have been reallyimpactful. Just showing the
lived experience of peoplehaving characters in your home,
you know, twice or three times aweek that you have a

(59:55):
relationship with, as you dowith soap, you know, characters.
I think that's been reallyreally important. For me going to
see plays actually was really,really important, plays and
films. You know, when I saw thefilm Beautiful Thing that came
out in 1996, written by JonathanHarvey, who's a writer on
Coronation Street and writtenlots of other plays and well
known to gay audiences. He wrotethis play that was on I think,

(01:00:17):
in the Bush Theatre in ShepherdsBush in 1995. I think it
transferred to the DonmarWarehouse, also to the West End.
And that became a film in 1996.That was the first time I'd ever
seen two gay teenagers, youknow, I was 23 or something and
seeing these teenagers 16,17,18two characters who were like
me, it was the first time I'dever seen two gay men, young men

(01:00:39):
who were just like regularpeople. So I think the answer is
the Arts is really, really important and really vital, and it reflects
who we are. That said, I've also beenreally frustrated that I think
the Arts has been so fixatedon, you know, some of these kind
of issues, you know, identityissues, which are really, really

(01:01:01):
important. And I will go and seethem. And I've written a play
about gay life, myself calledBlowing Whistles, which is quite
successful and been on aroundthe world and stuff. But I also
think sort of frustration at themoment as my awareness of what's
happening to the planet becausethe arts have really failed to
address the ecological collapsethat we are well on truly in

(01:01:25):
now. But there's hardly been anyplays about it. Not many, many
books, not very many TV shows orfilms. There's a couple actually
that come this year. Jody Comer isin one. But yeah, I think the
Arts is great. But also it canbe a little bit self indulgent
as well, I think I wish it wouldembrace these bigger issues as
well. Yeah,

(01:01:47):
that's really interesting.Particularly because, as you
were saying, you know, you'veyou've been actively involved in
the in the art space as aplaywright. So it's really
interesting how you can see thatkind of playing both ways.
Matthew, it's a very, very, verybig thank you from me, for

(01:02:07):
taking part in this podcastseries. It's such a
valuable perspective. And foranyone who's listening who may
be feeling vulnerable at themoment, perhaps or struggling
with identity or sexual identityor for listeners who may just be
curious about understanding gayculture, the gay community or

(01:02:30):
what or what some of thoseissues are. Everything will be
signposted on Matthews episodepage, and I will be sure to
signpost you to his website.Matthew, thank you so much. It's
really important, the book andthe other works that you've
created, and I really hope thatcan be embraced once again, as

(01:02:55):
part of LGBT history month.
Thanks very much. Thanks forhaving me. It's really nice to
talk to you.
Oh bless you. Thank you,Matthew.