Ballet Black. Be Free to be the Artist you Want to be.

Cassa Pancho, MBE, founded Ballet Black in 2001, Britain’s most diverse ballet company celebrating dancers of black and Asian descent. Today it’s one of the most prolific commissioners of new and critically acclaimed ballets here in the UK. The journey in between however, has been huge. Racist barriers in the industry were high and it was only six years ago that the world leading designer, Freed of London, in collaboration with Ballet Black, developed the UK’s first range of point shoes for dancers with darker skin tones. The exclusively pink or pale ballet shoe had long reigned as the symbol of a white-centric ballet world. It was trying to write her dissertation for a degree in The Art and Teaching of Classical Ballet, that Cassa realised she couldn’t interview black women in British ballet, because there weren’t any. As a young graduate, Cassa started Ballet Black, it was a brave under taking. Starting a new company is normally built around a star dancer and no-one was likely to take her seriously. But, Ballet Black offered a space where black and Asian dancers could come without feeling othered or marginalised and even a basic dance class was hugely popular. This is the work of a pioneer leading positive change. Black ballerinas being told they could only be cast in male roles or to break their feet because they didn’t fit a preferred, white, body type, are racist traumas to be left in the dust of this trailblazing work. Ballet Black is making a fundamental change in the diversity of classical ballet and to audiences in Britain. We talk about the freedom to be an artist, the stories that are told and who by, creative collaborations, the Ballet Black junior school and Ballet Black on Film. 

Photo Credits:

Image of Cassa Pancho, solo, credited to Holly McGlynn Images of the Ballet Black Company on stage and with Cassa in a Studio, are both credited to Photography by ASH  

Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.

Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb

Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview, news, reviews and your host are here: www.canartsaveus.com

Discover Ballet Black: www.balletblack.co.uk

Ballet Black on Film: www.bbonfilm.balletblack.co.uk

Performances and Dates: wwww.balletblack.co.uk/performances/

Reference also made to Justice 4 Windrush: www.justice4windrush.org

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to

(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? My

(00:50):
guest today is Cassa Pancho MBA,who in 2001, founded Ballet
Black, Britain's most diverseballet company celebrating
dancers of Black and Asiandescent. Today, it's one of the
most prolific commissioners ofnew and critically acclaimed
ballets here in the UK. Thejourney in between however, has
been huge, racist barriers in theindustry were high, and it was

(01:14):
only six years ago that theworld leading designer Freed of
London in collaboration withBallet Black developed the UK's
first range of pointe shoes fordancers with darker skin tones.
The exclusively pink or paleballet shoe had long reigned as
the symbol of a white centricballet world, a clear statement

(01:35):
of racist exclusion. It wastrying to write her dissertation
for a degree in the art andteaching of classical ballet,
that Cassa realized shecouldn't interview black women
in British ballet because thereweren't any. As a young
graduate, Cassa started BalletBlack, it was a brave
undertaking, starting a newcompany is normally built around

(01:58):
a star dancer, and no one waslikely to take her seriously.
But Ballet Black offered a spacewhere Black and Asian dancers
could come without feelingawkward or marginalized. And
even a basic dance class washugely popular. This is the work
of a pioneer leading positivechange. Black ballerinas being

(02:19):
told they could only be cast inmale roles, or to break their
feat because they didn't fit apreferred white body type are
racist traumas to be left in thedust of this trailblazing work.
Ballet Black is making afundamental change in the
diversity of classical balletand audiences in Britain.

(02:41):
Everyone is invited and I waslucky enough to invite Cassa
Pancho to join me today. HelloCassa and thank you for
joining me.
Hi, Paula. Thanks for asking me.
Cassa, I wondered if we couldgo back to the significance of
the ballet shoe that I referredto in the introduction finally

(03:05):
being designed in a range ofdifferent flesh tones. What
amazes me is we are only talkingabout six years ago. I think it
was 2018 when yourself and oneof your dancers Cira Robinson,
That's right, developed thiswith with Freed. This seems to

(03:26):
be such an evident statement ofexclusion. Why on earth did it
take so long do you think?
I think it wasn't necessarily adeliberate exclusion. It's just
that because the ballet world isoverwhelmingly Caucasian. Nobody

(03:48):
really thought about it. Sobefore we made the shoe with
Freed, a company in Americacalled Gaynor Minden about
four years prior to the Freedshoe coming out, were making
three or four shades of brown,mid light brown to dark brown.

(04:09):
But the kind of shoe it was,wasn't a universally used shoe.
And we didn't see it over here.And we didn't have the same
level of social media, and theability to see what's going on
in all other ballet companiesacross the world. Like now I
could tell you what's going on inNew York City Ballet or American
Ballet Theatre just fromfollowing them on Instagram.
Whereas back then we didn't havethat same ease of exchange of

(04:32):
information. So you know, whenyou start a company like Ballet
Black, there are so many thingsyou need to tackle that. To be
honest, the shoe was one of thelast things that we even thought
about doing and it all came outof Cira Robinson, who is a

(04:53):
black American ballerina whowears Freed shoes, going into
the shop to by her usualsupply of pink shoes, and
noticing on the counter, therewere loads of satin samples in
every color under the rainbowexcept brown. And she asked, Are
these to make custom shoes? Theysaid, Yes, we can make any color

(05:15):
you like. And she said, Can youdo Brown and they said, Oh,that's
the one colour we don't do. Go awayand find us some brown satin, we
can make you a brown, customizedshoe. And unbeknownst to me,
Cira went out looking forsatin and then one day, she
finally told me what she wasdoing. And I said, let's, let's

(05:35):
talk to Freed and let's get themto find the satin, because they
are the shoe experts, not us.And from there, we were able to
work with Freed to come up withthese two shades bronze and
brown. Yeah, I
mean, it's such a brilliant,happy collaboration, isn't it.
And isn't it incredible thatit's almost just stumbling into

(05:55):
into the shop, so to speak tosee those rainbow colors,
but at least it you know,raising that all important
question. And of course, thisled to a fantastic collaboration
and celebration with Stormzy atGlastonbury and I wondered if
you'd like to share what happensfor the, for the listeners,

(06:15):
because I imagine the impact ofwhat happened at Glastonbury was
huge, if not transformative.
Yes, it was it feels like solong ago now. So Stormzy and
Ballet Black was already lookingfor something that we could do
together. And had been talkingfor a couple of years. But you

(06:38):
know, schedules didn't allow forit was just wasn't an easy,
straightforward thing, becausehe just sort of took off to a
incredible stratospheric levelat the time that we were
talking. And we were becomingincreasingly busy with our
touring and this was all prepandemic. Then he got the
Glastonbury gig and his creativeteam, one of the people on it

(07:03):
Amber Rimmel was very into ballet,and had just heard about the
shoes coming out and suggestedthis might be the way we can
work with Ballet Black. And, andhe loved, well, first of all, he
was shocked that this didn'texist as a lot of people were
they just thought that thesebrown shoes had existed
forever. And he wanted to createa platform in his set to give a

(07:25):
lot of different people a voiceincluding us. So going onto that
Pyramid Stage, first of all,we'd never done anything on
that scale, it was also televised.So the I think 200,000 people
that were there, were then multiplied by all the people
watching at home on TV. So wehit I mean I can't even, over a

(07:50):
million people I think saw thatand saw that the shoes existed
and found out the Ballet Blackeven existed because perhaps
they didn't know about useither. So it was a kind of a
transformative landmark momentfor Ballet Black. Yeah,
I can imagine it, it musthave almost been overwhelming
really. I did catch an interviewclip with one of the dancers,

(08:14):
who'd been on that stage. And hesaid it was completely life
changing. And I wondered whatyour conversations were about
that how it was life changing.
I think when you perform in atheater, even a big theater for
us is about 1500 people. Andthey sit quietly while you

(08:38):
perform. And then if you've donea good job, hopefully they will
clap or maybe cheer at the end.When you are with Stormzy it's a
very different experience. So wewent out onto this stage already
Glastonbury, he was the nighttimeact it already the I think the
anticipation the excitement hadbeen building all day. And when

(09:00):
we got out there, I watched fromthe side of the stage and when we
got out there the sound of thecrowd cheering was, I mean, it
was unlike anything you couldever experience in a theater,
the volume, the volume of peoplethe volume of the cheering. And

(09:22):
I think the dancers could almostnot hear the music. There was so
much noise from the audience.And that nothing can prepare you
for that. We went for rehearsalswith Stormzy and they rebuilt
the set in a in a studio for usto rehearse everything, but
nothing can prepare you for thataudience and the audience
reaction that we got. Yeah,yeah,
I mean, quite frightening aswell actually, if you can't

(09:44):
actually hear the music you'reperforming to but but immensely
exciting and that that thatlevel of celebration and
particularly, you know from theposition you've you've come from
the lack of celebration, if youlike, you know, of black
and Asians answers to thatmoment, I can only imagine it

(10:07):
was absolutely incredible. Andit seems to me that of course,
it's the art of collaborationthat Ballet Black does so
brilliantly well, and as part ofhow you diversify the ballet
experience, so for example, youincorporate poetry, music, film,

(10:28):
different choreographers. Arethese all deliberate ways of how
you want to widen, diversifyaudiences, but also change the
conversation about what balletis?
I think it's, it's acombination. So for example, the

(10:52):
ballet you're talking about withpoetry. The choreographer came
with this idea to use the poemsas the as the soundtrack to the
ballet. And so he, he broughtthat idea to us, and then we
took it and we ran with it. Butcertainly, you know, starting a
company, with only, I think wehad six dancers at the

(11:16):
beginning, you already you can'tdo the existing ballet
repertoire. So we couldn't doSwan Lake or Giselle, or
Sleeping Beauty, because we don't have enough people. And we're
also in the same city as theRoyal Ballet and English
National Ballet. So yeah, Ididn't need to reinvent the
wheel on that in any way. So outof necessity, we needed to find

(11:40):
work that would, you know, showus off in a, in a great way, but
also spark the interests ofpeople to come and see this
unknown company. And so whatstarted out as necessity
actually became one of the mostinteresting things that we were
doing. And so it was sort of byaccident that we, we have built

(12:03):
up this repertoire over thefirst few years, it wasn't
necessarily the goal to createthis interesting new work, but
we just were by default, becausewe were getting young
choreographers that would neverhave a hope of getting work, put
on a big opera house or, or bigballet company, because it's
just not the way things worked back then things are opening up
much more now. But in thosedays, you know, 22 years ago,

(12:28):
all the ballet companies weredoing work by mostly deceased
choreographers, and they, youknow, the big classic pieces,
which of course, we don't wantto lose from the ballet
repertoire. But I think therewas a whole other audience that
we tapped into that weren'tnecessarily interested in the
story that Swan Lake was tellingthem, but wanted to come and see
something that felt a bit morerelevant to them or more of

(12:51):
interest to them.
Yeah, and actually, this issomething that, that that's
exactly the point that stood outto me, actually, when I was
reading about the productionThen or Now, which, of course,
is the ballet that incorporatedAdrienne Rich's poetry. And it

(13:11):
was from the Sky Artsdocumentary, actually, that
William Tuckett, who was thechoreographer said that creating
work for Ballet Black had feltvery different to previous
collaborations. It was stillexciting, but he was very aware

(13:32):
of a great responsibility andthat was asking those questions,
whose story should the dancersbe telling? And in times of
political upheaval, and socialchange, so I was interested in
what your conversations were inrelation to that at that time of

(13:53):
creating Then or Now?
Well, we started to make thisBallet just before the pandemic.
So this ballet has gone throughkind of a world change affected
by worldwide events. So Will initially we wanted to make

(14:15):
another ballet, this is ourthird, this became our third
collaboration. And I knew Iwanted him to make something for
us. And we met to talk aboutideas. And at that time, the
Windrush scandal was becomingincreasingly loud in the press,
and there was, it was getting tobe a bigger and bigger and

(14:36):
bigger issue. And Will, who wasa white, middle class, English
man, we really wanted to makesomething about that. And that
didn't really sit well with me.We were a company of people of
African and Afro Caribbeandescent, and it didn't feel like

(14:59):
we wanted this story even incollaboration with us to be told
by a Caucasian person, so wetalked more and more. And, and
he understood that. And at thesame time Brexit was happening,
or about to happen. And thatfelt like it hit a different

(15:21):
group of people. But it wasbeing boiled down to the same
issue of, we don't want youhere, or you don't belong here,
or go back to where you camefrom, which was something the
Windrush people were being told.And then it became something the
European citizens that lived inthe UK, were being told by
certain factions. So at the sametime, Will was looking at a lot

(15:45):
of this poetry by Adrienne Rich,and even though it wasn't
written about those specificevents, it was it really
resonated. And it sounded like,we could be talking about people
being deported to Jamaica, or toEurope, and being told, go back
to where you came from, when,actually, although there are
roots in the Caribbean or rootsin Europe, we're from here,

(16:09):
where this is, the only place weknow is the UK. So what does
that mean for people that haveroots elsewhere, or heritage
from other places, but theydon't necessarily call that
home. And that was somethingthat really resonated, certainly
for me as a half Trini with adad who came over from Trinidad,

(16:32):
but he, you know, at the age of12, would not consider Trinidad
to be his first home, he wouldconsider London to be that. So
that really sparked my interest.And that felt like a better
creation point. For achoreographer like Will to work
with a company like ours and totry and tell a story, because we

(16:54):
let Adrienne Rich's words do thework for us in that way. Because
she was a known activist reallyfighting for gay rights and for
the civil rights movement in theUS, she was a big advocate for
all of those things. So it feltlike she was also one of the
right people to speak for us ina way. And so we developed this

(17:15):
ballet, then the pandemic came,and, you know, something that we
could never have predicted. Andthese Windrush, Brexit, all
these issues got worse and worseand worse, as well as the global
pandemic. And when we came backto finally stage it, it just
felt like we were saying evenmore, because during the

(17:36):
pandemic, we had the 2020,resurgence of the Black Lives
Matter movement, we had themurder of George Floyd and that
really turned a lot of things inthe ballet world on its head. So
some of the poems became almostconfrontational, as we were
saying them to the audience orto the ballet industry. And it
really changed the heat, Ithink, on the ballet. Yeah,

(18:00):
it's it's incredibly significantwhen when you put this into
context of such huge social andpolitical upheavals, and it
certainly raises significantquestions, doesn't it about
belonging. And there's so manyso many things that that that

(18:24):
raises, but it does really standout to me that your personal
experience is so significant.It's so strange to read, you
say, "I passed as being superwhite." And of course, this gave

(18:46):
you unique insights because thefact that people didn't perceive
you as someone of dual heritage,as you said, your father was
from Trinidad and I understandyour mum is white British. And
so you will witness won't you tobasically racism or language or

(19:08):
comments that would not havebeen made if it was understood,
that you were actually a blackpresence. So I wondered if
you'd if you could bring that tolife for us what that strange
experience must be like.
Well, I became aware of it ofbeing different. I think when I

(19:37):
got to high school or secondaryschool, as I think people call
it now and just realizing thingslike parents evening that most
people's parents were eitherboth black or brown or both
white, and there weren't thatmany mixed Families and I

(20:00):
remember, you know, my teachersbeing surprised when they saw
both my parents and, and whencertain people found out there
were some BNP while I assume thechildren of BNP members at my
sixth form, who would tell mevery earnestly that each of my

(20:25):
parents were traitors to theirrace. And that as a
crossbreed, I really shouldn'tbe here.
Sorry. I mean, I know this isaudio, but my face is literally
in my hands. The language isjust so shocking. Well,
I also think, I don't know whatI don't expect any other way,

(20:50):
really. So it doesn't feelshocking to me. But, yeah, so
that was the kind of thing thatI would hear. And I became
really aware of the switch frompeople not knowing or assuming I
was one thing, and then findingout and then making those kinds

(21:13):
of comments that I hadn't heardfrom them before, till they
discovered that I'm mixed. Sothat's just been normal for me,
I think for me, as long as I canremember, through childhood. And
now I'm in Ballet Black, andit's a place where everyone
knows, you know, what we are in,there's no judgment, or no, it's

(21:34):
a positive thing it's welcomedhere that you're black, or
mixed, or whatever. So it's not,it's not something I've carried
through. And, you know,nowadays, you know, our ballet
school is made up of loads ofdifferent cultures, heritage,
color race. So, you know, itfeels very much like something

(21:56):
of the time I was growing up inthe 80s, and 90s. And, but it
gave me this insight into thecode switching, I suppose might
be how you describe it, wherewhen you think you can say
something about either a race orgay people or whatever, because

(22:21):
you think there's norepresentation in the room. And
then how you behave when thereis someone there, and how people
can switch for publicappearance. It really started to
make me think, how would one goabout getting through the

(22:42):
classical ballet world, if youare unambiguously black. And you
know, that people think thesethings or say these things or
believe these things, they won'tsay it to your face. So there's
a constant, very British,passive aggressive, keeping
down, people being kept down orkept in their so called place.

(23:06):
Because it doesn't fit thestereotype that people in power
believe should be all allpresent all the time.
Yeah, absolutely. And it reallyalerts me to an enormous amount

(23:28):
of courage you possess I know,you may not necessarily perceive
yourself as courageous perhaps,but perhaps that also comes from
your, your parents in terms ofthem championing you know,

(23:50):
their, their, theirrelationship, their marriage,
their their identity, andensuring that obviously, you
would have a positive identity.I wondered if part of that was
the fact that your it was yourdad, I think, who took you off
to ballet when you were as maybeas young as two and a half, for
example. Was that all aboutbuilding confidence and ensuring

(24:16):
you had a sense you know, theright to have your identity in
any setting.
I'm not gonna lie. I don't thinkin you know, the early 80s my
parents were thinking like that.My both parents wanted to make
sure my brother and I wereoccupied. You know, so we

(24:38):
weren't getting into trouble. Sohe was sent off to karate and
tennis. I was sent off toballet. I don't think it was
anything more than that was theavailable hobby that we could we
could get to in Acton and Ealingat that time. So I don't think
my parents ever thought likethat. They just wanted to make

(25:00):
sure we were not getting up tono good. So it I think it took
them by surprise what, what,where my ballet career took me.
Because for them, you know, it'sjust, this is just life, you
know, this was a hobby I wasdoing and I don't think they
ever thought I could make it ajob.

(25:21):
Yeah, but because nevertheless,of course, taking you off to
ballet obviously became like areally huge door opener onto who
you are today and your life totoday. So interestingly, you
obviously studied at DurhamUniversity and as I mentioned

(25:42):
in the introduction, that's whenyou were alerted to the fact you
know, with your dissertationresearch, you couldn't actually
access black ballet dancers, inBritain at that time. And so I
wondered if you were pointedmuch more at the ballet history

(26:04):
in the USA, for example, youknow, where there's huge stories
with people like KatherineDunham, who founded the first
black ance Company, and thatwas in 1944. So, you know,
immensely progressive. Is thatwhere you almost inevitably had
to look for the kind of researchor role models that you wanted

(26:28):
to encounter? Yes, I
mean, what was available to mein history books that we had in
1999, 2000. And about blackpeople in ballet, what I could,
you know, what I could look intowas Janet Collins, one of the
first black ballerinas in the USand Raven Wilkinson. So I,

(26:50):
although I was very aware ofKatherine Dunham, because she
wasn't a classical balletdancer, I really kept the focus
quite narrow on ballet. Andobviously, Dance Theatre of
Harlem was the biggest thing inthe US at the time. At that
time, it was a 30 membercompany. There was an old VHS

(27:11):
tape of what was the ballet there, Creole Giselle, in our,
in our library, and I was ableto watch that and see black
ballet dancers because again,you know, back then, if anyone
listening is not in our agegroup, there was no Facebook,
there was no YouTube there was Idon't think there was I didn't

(27:34):
had an email address at thattime. So to to be able to see
what else was going on in theworld was not as easy as it is
now. So finding this VHS tape ofDance Theatre of Harlem was like
just like finding treasure. Andbeing able to watch Virginia
Johnson she was the lead in thepiece and that the entire cast

(27:56):
from corps de ballet up to the leadballerina, were all black was
amazing. So that that was reallya big part of the research was
what happened with data out ofHarlem. And to get a classical
ballet perspective, I was ableto interview a African American

(28:17):
ballerina called Aesha Ash, whoat the time was in New York City
Ballet. And they happened to betouring to Edinburgh, so I was
able to get a letter to thetheater. And she wrote back to
me, I also spoke to blackBritish contemporary dancers, in
the UK, and some male balletdancers as well. And just

(28:40):
overwhelmingly what I heard backfrom the British dancers of the
women was I was always toldthere is no future for you in
ballet. So don't even focus onit, go into commercial dance, go
into African go intocontemporary musical theater,
you cannot go into ballet, youhaven't got the body for it.

(29:02):
They're not looking for blackdancers. You know, it's,
it's a dead end. So what I wasdiscovering was a sort of method
of advice given by teachers thatwell meaning or not, was also
diverting any possible talenttowards other dance forms or out
of dance completely. And sothere's a real there was a real

(29:24):
dearth of classical ballettalent, because it was never
given an opportunity to blossom,you know, to fail or win on its
own merits. It was alreadyencouraged into other avenues.
Yeah, and this everything you'vesaid, is very clearly stated in

(29:45):
the documentary TheUncomfortable Truth of Being a
Black Ballerina, and this is oneof Ballet Blacks ballerina is
Marie Astrid Mence and Ithink, you know, it was a very
clear statement that she wasmaking, that being a black woman

(30:09):
in the ballet world, and as youas you've just said, if you
weren't already pushed out, meant you had to constantly prove
your worth. And this is by nomeans easy. We're talking about
surviving, bullying, mentalexhaustion, and depression can
can come with that, you know,again, those those huge courage

(30:32):
to be committed to survivingthis space where barriers are so
high. And I wondered if again,you'd like to share what your
exchanges may have been withMarie, around her experiences,
and then happily joining youat Ballet black.

(30:56):
Well, Mary doesn't work forBallet Black anymore. So I, I'm
always wary of sharing otherpeople's experience. But what I
can say is that any dancer inBallet Black is able to come to
work and focus on the work. Sowhat we're interested in is your

(31:21):
ballet. We are not here to saycan you powder your skin to look
lighter, we're not here to sayflatten your hair, get rid of a
any curves in your body, that issomething that is eliminated. So
all those little obvious andsubtle and unconscious barriers
and bias that other balletcompanies may carry, don't exist

(31:44):
here. So what you can do here isbe free to be the artist you
want to be. And I think that'sprobably one of the biggest
achievements of Ballet Black iscreating an environment where
that is all you have to focuson. And we're not going to say
you're too dark for this, or youneed to be lighter, or you need

(32:08):
to do anything like that, thathas never come up here. And it
never will. Because that is notthe essence of Ballet Black.
Yeah,
it's the freedom to be anartist. And as other
artists are allowed to be in other companies. Yeah,
and, and to be able to be anartist without perhaps having to

(32:31):
wade through all of the colorcoding and tags.
Those aren't always obvious. Andsometimes it's just that because
you're the only black person ina room of 30, white people,
there may be no overt racism orabuse going on. But you are

(32:53):
still carrying something. Andall of that is removed here.
Yeah. And this really relates tothe conversation, I had the
privilege to interview thedance legend and

(33:14):
choreographer, Gregory Maqoma in the last season. And for
listeners, who may not befamiliar with his work, Gregory
is from South Africa. And he'sachieved this immense dance
career. But he survived thefirst 21 years of his life under

(33:37):
the apartheid system of SouthAfrica. And it's it's truly
astonishing what he hasachieved, personally,
professionally, artistically,with such immense and
particularly cruel barriersagainst him. But what a joy that

(34:01):
you have also worked withGregory Maqoma, and this is
Black Sun. And I wondered howyour collaboration came about
and was that about being able tohonor ancestry being able to
represent black history, beingable to celebrate your own

(34:23):
identity?
I think so. I think that theeverything that happened with
George Floyd and the Black LivesMatter movement, during the
pandemic, really ripped off abarrier. So prior to that,
although we have been, you know,highlighting issues and trying

(34:48):
to talk about things. I stillfelt sometimes it was hard to
say to a Caucasian person, whatyou're doing is objectifying or
you're applying to onunconscious bias, because I
didn't have all those terms touse. So I just knew that I
didn't feel good about achoreographer or something that

(35:09):
was being said in the balletworld. And then, with the murder
of George Floyd and everybodysuddenly posting a black square
on Instagram, saying, we want todo better. It just sort of
lifted the last barrier for mein being able to just say, what
you're doing is out of order.And let me tell you why. And

(35:32):
then you can decide what youwant to do about it. So that
also unlocked a desire in me tomake sure we were telling more,
either black historical storiesor stories by black or Asian
voices. And I had seen Gregoryhad brought his company to the

(35:55):
UK, probably in 2019, and I wentto see his show at the Barbican.
And I didn't know anything abouthim, except that he was from
South Africa. And his show wasamazing. And it was the Ravel's
Bolero show. And I thought,Oh, my God, I have to get this

(36:16):
guy to come and make somethingfor Ballet Black. And I stayed
for the post show Q&A. And init, he's he spoke about ballet
and how he is not interested inworking with ballet, because
it's a kind of a colonial artform that he just had no
interest for him. And I thought,he's never gonna make something

(36:37):
for us. But then, during theactual pandemic, we made a film
called Eight Fold. And I askedeight choreographers to make a
solo for each of our eightdancers. And we have a South
African dancer in the companycalled Mthuthuzeli November,
who has since gone on to become avery great choreographer. But at
the time, I was looking for asolo for him, I wanted to

(36:59):
inspire each of our eightdancers because we were in a
very difficult place not beingable to perform not being able
to come into work. And I wantedto create something for them to
keep them going during thisweird time when we didn't know
what we could and couldn't do.So I thought this would be the
greatest choreographer for Mthuthuzeli to have. And I

(37:20):
contacted Gregory, and heagreed, and he made this
beautiful solo, for us forour film, Eight Fold. And from
there, it kind of opened thedoor to a little bit of ballet.
And I asked him if he would, youknow, when the pandemic had
ended, and he would be able tofly it again, would he consider

(37:41):
coming to make something. And hesaid, Yes, and he didn't say
anything about the ballet, thankGod. And he's actually quite
interested in using the pointeshoes, because he was quite
fascinated in the way that womencould move across the stage
looking like they were floating,which can only really be
achieved with pointe shoes whenyou're doing ballet. So he came

(38:01):
back, or he came to Ballet Blackto make a piece. And he said,
You know, I want to look at whatit means to have ancestors that
and to acknowledge and, and beled by your ancestors, which is
not a very British way ofthinking I think. And it

(38:21):
really resonated with thedancers. And it turned into this
incredible, very moving piecethat we toured for a year called
Black Sun. And so that's how wethat's how we got together to
make a piece.
Yeah, it's a it's a beautifulcollaboration, and particularly,
of course, with all of thoseshared values. And do you think

(38:45):
at the end of that year, therewas maybe a new wealth of
learning or knowledge that cameout of that for both of you?
I think so because we went toplaces making his ballet that we
hadn't really gone to as acompany, we had to really
confront our own heritage andnot in a negative way. But we

(39:08):
had to really think about, youknow, for those of us that are
mixed, some of us have, youknow, contact more with the
Caucasian side of family or morecontact with the black or
Caribbean side of our family.And so, it wasn't necessarily
always a comfortable space forall of us to be in. But, you

(39:28):
know, working with Gregory andwith each other, we were able to
delve in and find, find thisreally beautiful piece of work.
And it wasn't necessarily a bighit with the Caucasian critics.
But with our audience, it was acompletely different thing. We

(39:51):
had people sitting in theirseats for 10 minutes after the
show, just letting it sink in.And I think You know, that's
another example of howtraditional ballet and what
we're doing doesn't alwaysnecessarily sit well together.
Because I think the criticsdidn't really understand what
they were seeing, because it hadno, didn't really mean anything

(40:12):
to them because it wasn't comingfrom their place of knowledge or
their own culture and heritage.And that was a very revealing
moment for me in ballet that alot of the critics said, Well, I
could see the audience liked it,but I had no idea what was going
on. Whereas our, our blackaudience really connected with
it in a way that maybe theywouldn't with something like

(40:33):
Sleeping Beauty.
Yeah, absolutely. And of course,this is the very significant
purpose, isn't it, of whatyou're doing is changing the
stage literally changing whatstories are told. And of course,
all of this is also raising theimportance of role models, you

(40:54):
know, who we see growing up. Iknow, you commented, for
example, at the Royal Academy, Ithink you were in a all white
setting, for example. And theimportance of role models, is
part of transformativeeducation. And it's very clear
how that can significantly helpcombat racism. And I'm really

(41:19):
interested in how this all feedsinto the Ballet Black junior
school where I think teachingchildren starts as young as age
three. And I wondered if you'dlike to share more about the
school. And the very specificreason why it's important to
start at age three.

(41:41):
Well, the school came about ayear after the company because
it became apparent that, youknow, we've got to work at both
ends, the professional end, aswell as the church hall end, as
I call it, where you get kids atthe young age of three, and all
the way up to 18. And you'reteaching them ballet. But the

(42:03):
difference is, it is anenvironment where first of all,
they are probably not the onlyblack face in the room, which is
certainly true of our school.And that the people in power in
the room, the teachers are, wellcan be from anywhere. So we have
white teachers, Black, Asian,mixed race, so we have a really
diverse group of teachers. Butlike the company, there is

(42:25):
already no barrier, if your hairis braided, if your hair is, if
you want to wear it in an afro,that is all accepted and
embraced at the school. Becauseeven today, we still hear
stories of schools saying we'vegot to cut your braids off, you
can't be in the show, you can'tdo the exam. So none of that
exists at our school. All thekids are also it's quite close

(42:47):
connected to the company. Sothey might get to see, you know,
Isabela Coracy, one of ourlead dancers come in and teach
them or come and see a show andget to see all the Ballet Black
dancers up close. So it's veryclosely connected. And so those
role models are right, they'rejust they're not, they're not a
distant figure. It's not like afan and Beyonce, like where

(43:10):
you'll never get to meet her ortalk to her. It's something that
is within touching distance, youknow, they can speak to these
dancers, the dancers come in thedancers do a show with the kids
at the end of the year, wherethe kids get to perform on stage
with the company dancers. Sothose very real role models are
right there very accessible toour kids. And that I think is

(43:34):
incredibly important.
Yeah, and it's, it's reallyinteresting. In fact, even when
you mentioned Beyonce, you know,as an as another role model,
because of course, currently,Beyonce has topped the US country
charts. So I think it's it's the Hot 100 or something

(43:54):
like that, because of hercountry song, Texas. And
there's alarming backlash. Thereare you know, despite topping
the charts, there are radiostations that are refusing to
play Beyonce and saying it's notcountry. We're still surrounded

(44:16):
by firsts, we're stillsurrounded by barriers, but that
the significance of having rolemodels and that example now with
Beyonce with Beyonce, is reallyimportant, isn't it that you can
belong it goes back to what wewere talking about earlier. You

(44:37):
know, the importance ofbelonging, you can belong in
these spaces.
Yeah, and these people can banher record and they can say what
they want but she's still numberone. So, and
unfortunately, with inventedoffense and faux outrage and
people being anti woke and youknow, deliberately

(44:59):
misunderstanding themeaning of woke, for example, we
are always gonna have peoplelike that. So we can't attend to
them, we can't give them theoxygen that they so desperately
want. We've just got to get on withit. And do we want if you want
to make a country record, youwill make a ballet company, you

(45:20):
just go do what you want to do.And if you do it with integrity,
it will survive. And it will dowell. Because that's just, you
know, the genuine people willfind it. You just have to brush off
this, this nonsense, becauseit's all nonsense. And a lot of
it is manufactured, and, youknow, exaggerated and

(45:41):
exacerbated. And I think whenyou boil it down this probably,
yeah, there's more people proBeyonce doing this song than
not, because otherwise shewouldn't be topping the charts.
Yeah, exactly. And wouldn'twrite a personal message saying
well done. That's amazing. Ilove your song. Yeah.

(46:02):
And also picking up onintegrity. I mean, integrity
comes with courage, making theright choices and doing the
right thing. It is by no meanseasy. I mean, you have this
fabulous wealth of success, butit's by no means an easy story,
you have had to be courageous,and draw on your own personal

(46:24):
resilience. And actually goingback to your investment in the
Ballet Black junior school andthe importance, you know, of
reaching children as young asage three, that that ties in
again, with the impact of thattragic death or murder of George

(46:48):
Floyd, because I understandthat's when you suddenly had all
of these institutions ororganizations coming after you
for consultancy or advice ondiversity and wasn't the point
that you were making, or thatyou needed to make is you've
already lost because it's toolate. Because it's not an add

(47:11):
on, you know, you're reachingchildren as young as three, it's
too late if they're 13, forexample. Well, I
think with classical ballet, andof course, there are always
exceptions. So those people thatjump up and down and say, So and
so started at 13, at 16. Ofcourse, there's always going to
be a few exceptions. Butgenerally, if you want to train

(47:33):
a child, to be a great balletdancer, or at least have a
chance at being a great balletdancer, you've got to start
young, because you've got totrain your entire body to rotate
outwards, your legs have torotate out, you have to be
flexible, you have to be strong,you have to be lean enough that
you can be lifted, but not, youknow, you still got to be strong

(47:54):
and healthy. So there's abalance there. And that takes a
really long time to learn and totrain. So the younger you can
start the better. And what Ifound during the 2020, Black
Lives Matter moment, becauseit's an ongoing, it didn't just
start then and it hasn't stoppedis that a lot of organizations

(48:19):
said we're adding this thing onfor teens, we're doing this for
teens. And that's great foranyone that wants to have a go
at dance. If you are trulysaying we are now going to
commit to helping diversifyballet as in at the church hall
level and a professional level,then realistically, you've got
to get in there earlier. I thinkit's three other people might

(48:42):
think it's eight. But I thinkyou've got to get in as young as
you can to give kids a chance.Because also we're not only
trying to create more diversekids going into vocational
school. But we're also competingagainst a lot of other hobbies

(49:02):
and activities that kids haveavailable to them today, which
didn't, for me didn't reallyexist. When I was a kid growing
up, you picked your one thingand you just did it. So, you
know, to stay competitive tokeep British ballet alive we
need to be realistic. There's nopoint coming along when girls

(49:23):
are 14 to 16. And saying nowwe're going to show you how to
do ballet and boys too. But I'mtalking about girls specifically
because of point work and howhow much training that takes.
So, you know, if you're sayingwe're creating some workshops
for teenagers and upwards,because we just want everyone to

(49:43):
know they can get involved andhave fun. That's great. If
you're saying I truly want to bepart of diversifying the future
of dance, whether it's ballet ormodern dance or musical theater,
then you got to go earlier andthat's just for me the only way
to do it.
Yeah And would you say, this isreflected in some way in your

(50:09):
initiatives with Ballet Black onFilm, so it'll be good to let
the listeners know about theBallet Black on Film platform,
what they can access and see,because I saw that, that also
includes on demand balletclasses, which is really
significant. Not everybody canafford ballet, not everybody has

(50:29):
a local ballet class. So I thinkthat is probably very supportive
of your investment in education.But also how you're widening
access to ballet through film,it seems very significant,
including the launch of yourmobile screening initiative. So

(50:52):
I wondered if you'd like toshare that and alert listeners
to how else they can accessBallet Black?
Well, another thing that cameout of the pandemic was having
to figure out how could we stillcreate and perform ballet when
we're not allowed in a theaterand we were not allowed to sit

(51:12):
together. So we started bymaking a short film called Like
Water, which we did on thebeach, and the remit for the
choreographer, Mthuthuzeli, thethe dancer from South Africa
that I mentioned earlier, wasthat no one could touch each
other. And they had to be spacedout. And I can't remember what

(51:32):
the rules were back then. Butthere was I didn't expect to be
six feet apart from people. Sohe said, Okay, I'll, I want to I
want to make something I want totry and make this work. And I'll
rise to this challenge. And wewent down to a beach in I think
it was in Worthing, I can'tremember now, my memory is
terrible since the pandemic, andwe filmed this outside on the

(51:55):
beach. So we were in the openair, nobody touched, there
was no partnering, nobody liftedanyone or touched anyone. And we
created our first film, just 10minutes long, but really a
really powerful short film. Andthen we had something to offer
our audience while we couldn'tbe in a theater. And so from
there, we started to make morefilm. And we had been offering a

(52:19):
class via Instagram Live everySunday, we said come and join
this class with us, it's free,you just have to follow along,
if you've got internetconnection, just watch our
teacher. And, and that was quitepopular. So we decided we'll
record some classes. And sothey're on our website. And
there's a beginner, intermediateand advanced level at the
moment. So you can go on. So ifyou've got no money, that's

(52:41):
fine, all you need to do is beable to have a phone or a
laptop. And you can watch thisclass, you could do it at home
in your kitchen, you don't needto have ballet clothes, you
don't need to have any knowledge of ballet, just have a have a go,
no one's watching you becauseyou're in your own home. And so
that has proven to be reallypopular. And that's part of our
BB on Film section of ourwebsite. And anyone can go on
there, there are some freethings like the classes and some

(53:04):
of our films are free. And wealso created a pay per view
platform. So there are otherthings that obviously cost us
money. So we asked for a verysmall contribution towards being
able to watch those. So in thatway we, through this, we were
able to reach people across theworld, not just people that were
coming to the theaters that wewere performing at. And so that
gave us a bigger reach and enabled us to say to people

(53:27):
really far away, here's what ispossible. You know, if you if
you believe it, and you and youtry and you've you've got, you
know the talent to be a balletdancer, if you don't, you can
still enjoy it in a differentway as an audience member, or as
someone that takes classes. Sothere are loads of different
ways to get involved in ballet.
Yeah, the art of what ispossible. And the platform is is

(53:51):
absolutely inspirational. AndI'll make sure the links are all
signposted on your episode page.And what's really intriguing me
now is of course, you haveachieved an MBE the Most
Excellent Order of the BritishEmpire. And of course, it's an

(54:15):
interesting combination, isn'tit because it's a huge status
that may have brought positivechange. You were saying your
dad's from Trinidad, and we werementioning Windrush earlier I
don't know if your family'sdirectly affected by what's
currently a scandal in terms ofhow people have been illegally

(54:40):
and wrongfully deported. How dothey go together for you?
Well, this is so I got mine in2013, I want to say yeah, am I

(55:01):
right? Is that right? Yeah. Sothis was pre Windrush pre
hostile environment, or at leastpublic knowledge of it, and pre
the kind of government behaviorthat we are experiencing today.
Yeah, the current campaign doesclearly refer to this as the

(55:24):
home office scandal. Yes. Whichit is, the Justice for Windrush
campaign, which people can findonline it is undeniably our
home office scandal, it shouldnot be referred to as the
Windrush scandal. Windrushrefers to people that were
invited to their, quote, mothercountry. So I think we may as

(55:48):
well be crystal clear about whatthe dynamic is here.
So that is today's dynamic. Andthat was not how the world felt
in 2013. And at the time, Ireally believed that the more of
us that have these accolades,the more change will come about.

(56:14):
And I spoke to friends andcolleagues that had them before
me and had, you know, muchhigher level ones. And that was
how they felt. And so at thetime, you know, it felt like a
real recognition of Ballet Blackto that date, 2001 to that

(56:35):
moment. And it was before we hadregular funding. And you know,
every day of Ballet Black was areal struggle. So to have been
acknowledged, by whomever Idon't know, who put my name
forward for it. Certainly notBallet Black's Ballet Black's team
at that time was me and mydancers, and there's no way they
would have even thought of doingsomething like that. So it was a

(57:01):
really positive moment in thehistory of Ballet Black, I
wouldn't say it changed youknow, what didn't happen, which
I think some people might assumeis, we didn't suddenly have
money pouring in and offers comeand perform here come from
there. What we had was a lot ofreally goodwill from the dance
community saying, well done.That's great recognition of your

(57:24):
achievements. So that, althoughit's very nice, it is not it is
not the key to unlocking everysingle thing you think you want
or need, when you're when you'rerunning a ballet company.
Yeah, yeah. But it is, again,about having the right to be in
that space isn't it.

(57:46):
You know what I've noticedrecently, what I've thought
about more and more, as I see,my friends and colleagues get
these awards, is that nobodyever asks Caucasian people, if,
you know, they've thought aboutwhether they should accept or
not. And it also, like when weasked how you tackling racism,

(58:06):
we didn't invent racism, wedon't perpetuate racism, we
don't enjoy racism. It is notour problem to solve. So I think
it transfers through to a lot ofthings. So I felt, I felt in
recent times, a lot of peopleask me, how can you have that?
How can you have that next toyour name? And it's not this is

(58:28):
not what's being asked of otherpeople of the same level who are
white. And wonder why why do iWhy do all of us have to justify
these things when, you know,Caucasian people can see the
Windrush or home office scandalhappening and unfolding, they
could equally say no thanks.So I think it's interesting that

(58:50):
it's like it feels like anotherburden on people of the global
majority to have to answer thosequestions. Because it always
seems to come in a negative way,when people are being questioned
about it. But I think theperception is that you've got

(59:12):
you've got this, this key to asecret society and what I didn't
get a key, let's put it thatway. So if there is a secret
society, when you got one ofthese awards, I haven't been
inducted into it. So at thetime, it was a really great
moment because it was at a realpoint where I think I can't keep

(59:33):
doing this because I just it'sjust a completely thankless such
a slog, it was such a slog tohave no regular money. And
people saying there's no needfor it oh, there's no racism in
ballet. What are you talkingabout? You're making up problems
where they don't exist, and thatwas a sort of a daily grind was

(59:58):
to try and maintain thisthing because I knew what we
were doing was good. The dancerswere fabulous. The work we were
creating was great. The kidsloved their classes, the people
were happy in the environment.But at that point, it was still
only very much myself by, youknow, me on my own, and the
dancers. And it was a real pointwhere I was thinking, I don't

(01:00:20):
know how much more I can do toas one person to keep it going.
So the MBE coming through waslike, wow, oh, my god, somebody
thinks what I'm doing is good.Maybe, maybe someone else is
seeing what I'm doing and whatwe are doing as a group. And it
really helped keep me going in atime where I thought, I'm not
sure if I can maintain thisanymore. Yeah,

(01:00:43):
being a pioneer, as you say,does come with huge burdens and
frustrations, the world ofdiscrimination, all forms of
discrimination, including racismis the space we can all belong
to. Everybody can rejectdiscrimination and racism. And

(01:01:06):
it seems I should leap to mylast question because of time,
and I know you have rehearsalsto get to but actually you were
just saying about, you know,that struggle to keep going. And
the arts have a powerfulrelationship in terms of
people's wellbeing, forexample, or even just the

(01:01:27):
commitment to the role the artscan play in social justice. How
do you respond to the questionCassa, can art save us?
I think that art saves andsustains us every day. And we
don't always even notice it.Because during that pandemic,

(01:01:50):
when we were all sitting at homewatching telly, we were watching
professional writers workprofessional actors, makeup
artists, costume designers, setdesigners, composers. That's all
art, your favorite comic book,your favorite ballet, your
favorite style of dance, it isall art. And it all comes from

(01:02:12):
artists. And it's everywhere.It's in the music we listen to
it's in the clothes we wear,it's in the wallpaper we choose.
Art is part of the fabric oflife. It's not just a trip to
the theater at Christmas thatmight feel like your artistic
day out. Everything we're doingfrom the makeup colors you wear
to the how you style your hairall comes from art. And I think

(01:02:36):
it saves us every day and itsustains us throughout life.
Beautifully said. I obviouslymust thank you for your time
today. I'm very conscious youneed to literally run off to
your rehearsals. But I will makesure everything is signposted on

(01:02:59):
your episode page, includingyour current shows, tour dates.
I'm sorry, we haven't had timeto go into that. But I'll make
sure it's all signposted. And Iwant to say not just thank you
for your time today but for thehugely significant contribution
you've made to this country. Thepositive change that you have

(01:03:20):
single handedly and then withyour team and growing ballet
company, the significant changeyou've made for the better in
Britain in terms of diversityand encouraging diverse
audiences and more people totake part in ballet. Thank you
so much Cassa for your timetoday.
Thank you very much for havingme.