July 30, 2022 • 65 mins
Bobby Brown is a creative producer, artist, manager and rising architect of community arts and equal access, based in the city of Brighton. He's a game changer in youth work supporting creative projects, including music and radio that changes the lives of disadvantaged and excluded young people. He describes himself as a dream weaver, a bridge builder, an optimist and as someone who relied on youth services growing up to make sense of conflict and creative energy. He's an artist manager for rap duo Frankie Stew and Harvey Gunn and he's already been behind R&B singer Elli Ingram, a household name. We talk about identity, why multi-cultural cities are still ghettoised, Black Lives Matter and cultural spaces, fear and internal faith. Bobby is a game changer in the city of Brighton responding to the ever deepening gap between rich and poor. He shares his ideas and vision for building a society where democracy, equality and a collective voice can flourish together.
Series Audio Editor - Courtesy of Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can also be found here: https://www.canartsaveus.com
Discover Bobby Brown via: https://www.lighthouse.org.uk/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion Can art save us? And my
(00:51):
guest today is Bobby Brown, acreative producer, artist,
manager and rising architect ofcommunity and culture with equal
access based in the city ofBrighton. He's a game changer in
youth work supporting creativeprojects, including music and
radio that changes the lives ofdisadvantaged and excluded young
people. He describes himself asa dream weaver, a bridge builder
(01:14):
and an optimist. And as someonewho relied on youth services
growing up, we're lucky to catchhim today. Just before he goes
to Glastonbury with the rap duo,he manages Frankie stew and
Harvey Gunn. He's already beenbehind r&b singer Ellie Ingram a
household name, and I'd say theHall of Fame has already got his
name on it. And he'll no doubtbe busy opening more doors when
(01:35):
he gets there. Hello, Bobby.
Wow. What an introduction thatyeah, that was incredible. Yeah.
Wow. Thank you, Paula. Thankyou.
I'm glad you like it. I lovewriting my introductions.
Because you're all suchmassively interesting people.
I'm very lucky to talk to all ofyou.
(01:56):
I feel lucky to just yeah, bedescribed as such, you know, I
think yeah, you put thattogether really well, and sort
of said it better than I couldmyself, I think,
Oh, bless you. Well, let's talkmore than to under to understand
that. And actually picking up onthat description of yourself as
(02:16):
a dream weaver, a bridgebuilder, and an optimist. Those
are lovely qualities, but Idoubt they're necessarily easy,
you know, when you're faced withso many different challenges,
and I just wondered where yourenergy comes from to be so open?
I, I don't actually know wherethe energy comes from, to be
(02:40):
honest, I know it, it permeatesthroughout my family both on my
mum and dad's side. I know thatperhaps for me, it's closer to
the surface than than othermembers of the family, I think
other members maybesuppress it or channel it in
different ways where I'm alittle bit more not necessarily
(03:01):
chaotic with it, but I'm quitespread far and wide with the
energy. And I think one of thethe main factors of that, I
suppose, or the main factors ofmy use of energy is that it, it
seems to be directed towardsauthority, or power structure or
(03:24):
infrastructure, a lot of thetime or a lot of my focus or
attention for whatever reasonwanders towards that. And it's
that, at the sort of, I supposemicro and macro in, you know,
just wider society. But thenalso, you know, real community
(03:45):
level, to even, you know,friendship groups and
relationships. I'm reallyinterested in sort of all
dynamics of human interactionand connectivity, you know.
Yeah
Well, this is what I thought wasinteresting when I was reading
about the fact that you wereactually eight years old when
(04:07):
you moved to Brighton. Andschool was difficult. But I
think that's probably veryinteresting that maybe that's
what's behind your openness oryour motivation now, and you
talked about being the mostengaged in many ways, but deemed
disruptive. So I was justinterested in what was going on
(04:30):
for you at that time.
Well, there was quite I, I oftensort of revisit this and you
know, reflect, I suppose, but Ithink it actually started
earlier than when I moved toBrighton. And this for me,
again, is that before I was evennecessarily conscious of what I
was doing. My mum was at the University of Reading. I was at
(04:54):
school in Reading I think I wasfive or four or five years old
and I wrote piss offbasically in chalk, in chalk on
the playground on thefloor. And you
know, my mum was called in and,you know, they they applauded me
for for my correct spelling butyou know, obviously it had to be
(05:17):
it had to be addressed. So itfeels like I've got this sort of
rebellious nature sort of,again, instilled within me from
before I can even remember orfind the root cause of but I
think what I've, what I'vediscovered particularly over
(05:37):
the last couple of years, Isuppose is that it, it is rooted
in, it's from the heart, Isuppose, ultimately, and it does
come from a good place. I thinkBrighton has in it a sort of
liberal nature. It's provided mewith a good backdrop of like
(05:58):
reference points and resourcesfor the arts, the community, and
the charity sector, which I'vebeen really inspired by. And
again, that forms part of myidentity. My mum used to work
for Brighton Housing Trust,which was based out of a
building called Community Base,which housed a lot of community
(06:18):
organizations and still does tothis day, and I used to, you
know, I used to go and sit inthe offices at Community Base
after school sometimes, youknow, waiting for my mom to
finish work. So I, I've alwayshad that around me, you know, I
think naturally, I've I'vealways been creative. But I
(06:41):
think, again, I don't know if itis just Brighton or my parents or
even my grandparents,you know, both my grandparents
sort of studied sociology, orboth my grandmother's should I
say, studied sociology at University. So there's, there's
that aspect within me, you know,so it's not just Brighton, but
(07:01):
Brighton is a massive part of myidentity ultimately. And I think
it's, it's, it's a part of myidentity that isn't necessarily
recognized, broader than Brighton,Brighton has a reputation for
certain things that don'tnecessarily represent me. So, or
others, you know, any of mypeers. So I'm quite interested
in not necessarily changing thenarrative, but you know, voicing
(07:24):
our story as well.
So it's pretty amazing that atage five, you are already
beginning your very creative,let's say creative protests.
And what's interesting iscreativity was in some way
(07:48):
around you. And I wondered whatyou were leaning towards, you
did say you were actuallyexpelled from from school, I
think year nine, and I wondered,maybe what wasn't being
harnessed, or what kind ofcreative outlets did you have
then? Or did that really beginwith some introduction to youth
(08:09):
services?
I guess so. I felt like that wasthe creative outlet or art form
that I identified with or feltrepresented me best, I guess,
somewhat culturally, in sort oflooking at what was happening in
London with the Grime Scene, andthings like that, was that that
(08:32):
was the culture or popularculture or youth culture at the
time for me growing up. And I, Irecognize myself within that,
and, you know, I was part of asmall scene in Brighton that was
making that music out of youthclubs, you know, and, and you
saw some, some incredibletalent. Sort of, yeah. grow from
(08:57):
from that space. You know,Jordan Stevens from Rizzle
Kicks. Harvey, you know,Frankie Stew and Harvey Gunn
they were in that space, BobbyStewart you know, even Rag and
Bone man was a sort of productof that environment to an
extent. So, yeah, it's, it's, Ithink I sort of lost the point I
(09:22):
lost my point a bit, but youknow, I think youth services and
being expelled from schoolcreativity, it didn't my
creativity didn't necessarilyexist within the curriculum or
typical spaces. Because that wasa little bit too restrictive. I
(09:44):
had too much energy and activeenergy to be sat down for an
hour. And you know, let's play foran hour a day, you know, sort of
thing I had far too much energyto give for that environment to
sort of suit me. So I didthrive in more of the, I suppose
physical environments. But I'veI've also had some, you know, I
(10:10):
suppose one of the the firstimpressions or first good
impressions on me was in schoolfrom a drama teacher at the
second school I went to aftergetting expelled. She really,
you know, saw my potential and,you know, instilled confidence
within me. So I'm, Ithink a lot about sort of the
(10:35):
school environment and educationand how someone like myself, how
you how you make it lessdifficult for someone like
myself, I suppose to thrive inan educational environment?
Because, yeah, a lot of my, alot of my yeah, I suppose skills
(10:56):
have been nurtured outside ofthat space, I guess.
Yeah, it's interesting, how wecan all thrive differently in
completely different spaces and,and actually being expelled, was
that interesting in terms of,was it frightening or was it
useful even?
It depends at what point you'relooking at it from, I think, in
(11:21):
the media, it was frightening,it was isolating, it was
frustrating. It was quite adifficult, sort of, yeah, it's a
very difficult period, Isuppose. And I did some
reflection on it over thelockdown, actually, like, look
through the school reports. And,you know, the reports around the
(11:43):
exclusion and the letters thatmy mum was writing about, you
know, even when was this, youknow, over 15 years ago now, but
there was an over representationof Black and mixed race children
getting excluded from schooleven then. And a lot of my mood
or energy at that time was, youknow, it was because I was going
(12:05):
through puberty, one, but alsothere was I think there was
quite a significant factoraround sort of black history
being taught at the time, and mysort of frustration with that
narrative. And also, the factthat I was probably one of two,
(12:25):
three in a classroom at anygiven time, you know, with a
brown face being taught about,you know, you're the slave,
these are the perpetrators. Andit was a very difficult, very
difficult sort of period Ifound. And I don't think the
school quite knew how to managethat, ultimately. So yeah, I
(12:49):
think, yeah, being expelled,it's again, it's part of my
identity, it's part of who I amnow. And a lot of the things
that I was criticized for, thenI'm sort of celebrated for now,
which is really strange. Butthat's, you know, yeah, I often
(13:09):
sort of reflect on thatultimately, and so yeah, that is
part of who I am. And it was,you know, you could say it's
sort of destiny or whatever,yeah, it's part of my story or
whatever but it's yeah, it'sdefinitely not something I I
ignore or, or pretend didn'thappen. You know.
I love the fact that despite thehorror, if you like, having been
(13:37):
punished for raising your voiceabout identity at school, that
cut to a few years later, as anadult, you're helping calm and
steer a crowd of 100,000 people,a Black Lives Matter protest in
Brighton actually assisting thepolice, you know who I think
(13:59):
even hand you a megaphone,covered in the local press. I
mean, isn't that amazing? Youknow, expelled to become
that kind of community voice.How did that feel considering
considering that's the struggleyou came from as a child?
It was, it was extremelyoverwhelming, to be honest. And
(14:23):
it's still sort of is, theripple effects of it is still
ongoing, you know, the fact thatwe're talking about this now,
and I think two years later,this really interesting sort of
period, I wasn't actually goingto go to the protest. I just
felt, I don't know I just had afeeling you know, that also, I
don't know if I want to go I canfeel this. It's it's evoking
(14:47):
something within me that like itmay be it was rooted in sort of
the school and you know, all ofthis and sort of bringing up a
lot of trauma or triggering andtriggering a lot of things
within me. But my partner wasgoing down there, and a lot of
friends were going down there.So there's a lot of, you know,
messages around like, oh, let'smeet here, let's do this in all
(15:09):
the groups that I was in, but Iwent down on my scooter, just
sort of, to observe. And yeah, Ithink this was the time of sort
of the Winston Churchill statueconversation in sort of the mass
media, you know, and sort of theprotection of English identity
(15:30):
versus yeah, Black Lives Matter,I guess. So I went, I went down
to the Memorial in Brighton andactually just, I could sort of
almost preempt what was going tohappen before the march or the
protest had even started. So Iwent over to the guys at the War
(15:53):
Memorial, and just startedengaging with them, and having a
conversation just saying, youknow, introduce myself and just
explain that my mom's my mom'sdad was, you know, in the war,
and, you know, sort of found apoint of mutual interest or
commonality, I suppose, and sortof built from that. So I planted
the seed very early, just again,I don't know if it was
(16:17):
consciously or sort ofsubconsciously, but I could
almost predict what was going tohappen. And then the march
started and sort of did a lap ofthe city center. And as it was
going towards the memorial, itcame to a halt for about five or
10 minutes. And that's when itwas almost like, Oh, I know
(16:38):
what's happening here. And itwas kicking off. And you know,
there's just a lot of shoutingand abuse, and they were split
up. So it's like that theprotest was in the road. And
then there was like this, theother sort of side of the road,
which is blocked off by a fence.And then there's the memorial on
the other side of that, which isalso fenced off. So there's like
a fence barrier in between,basically. So it wasn't
(17:02):
physical, it was just verbal.But obviously, it brought the
protest to a halt. So I sort ofmade my way to the memorial and
in between, and it was gettingit was heating up, you know, the
whole protest then started to,to change path and go round the
other side of the memorial tothe point that the memorial was
(17:23):
surrounded by the protest. Andit could have got incredibly,
incredibly violent. And yeah,horrific. I don't, you know,
dread to think what could havehappened, but the cameras were
there primed, like everyone elseknew that this was a possibility
as well. But yeah, I suppose onthe basis that I'd, I'd already
(17:47):
gone and built the relationshipwith them, I sort of met, put
myself in the middle, and toldthe protesters to keep it
moving. This wasn't the purposeof the protest, you know, don't
let them sabotage the messageand all of this sort of stuff.
And then on the other side, youknow, I said, you're well within
your right to prepare to protectwhat you believe is your
(18:08):
identity and all of this sort ofstuff. But let's not provoke
because at the end of the day,it's not gonna it's not going to
reflect well on anyone. So itwas just a bit of sort of
mediating and peacekeeping, Isuppose. But yeah, the police
did give me a megaphone, theyallowed me to stand on top of
their, you know, police van, andguide the protest, essentially,
(18:33):
and keep it moving. And, andthey continue to, well, not that
we worked together, but beyondthe protest, I suppose I was
contacted by the ChiefSuperintendent of Sussex police,
Nick May at the time,
via Twitter, strangely. And hecontacted me, and was asking for
(18:55):
help within, you know, thecommunity with young people, all
of this sort of stuff wanted toI don't know what he wanted to
be honest. But that was justquite an overwhelming period of
time. And, again, just was like,Yeah, I was sort of on autopilot
for three, three hours sort ofpeacekeeping and moving this
(19:17):
protest past this potential,chaotic scenario. So yeah, it
was wild, to say the least.
Yeah, it's interesting that youuse the word autopilot, because
I was gonna say, that was afrightening situation, you know,
when the tension in a crowd canexplode any second that could
(19:37):
have gone one way or the other.And that must have taken a lot
of courage. Even if you didn'tperceive it as courage. I mean,
it's amazing that you could, youhad such wise insights to talk
so calmly. And when I imagineyour your head was racing
(20:00):
or inside the level ofresponsibility you actually
suddenly had with a crowd of100,000 people was was huge. Is
that what it was? Like you werekind of racing inside and calm
on the outside?
Yeah, absolutely. I don't knowif I was even calm on the
outside. To be honest, I think Iwas quite animated. But I was
(20:20):
quite clear with myinstructions. If you don't I
mean, or clear with mycommunication. It wasn't, it
wasn't commonly communicated. Itwas quite urgently communicated,
and critically communicated incertain instances, you know? So,
yeah, I was racing, I was onautopilot. I didn't feel
(20:43):
uncomfortable. At any point,necessarily. I felt like it. It
was almost like a duty. Youknow, it's almost like a it's
almost how, imagine afirefighter when he sees a fire,
you know? Yeah,
yeah. It's just a kind of anautomatic response and incident
to do the right thing. It seemsto me that it is all about
(21:08):
voices, you know, that you'reelevating community Voices,
individual voices, and artists,voices, you know, the musicians
you work with. And in relationto the probation project you've
been involved in, Inoticed somebody stated hip hop
(21:32):
is, especially about unheardvoices. And is that, is that
really why you've ended up youknow, working with rap artists
working in that hip hop space?Is that what's meaningful to you
about that culture? Yeah, I
think I think culturally, again,it's always been a voice of the
(21:56):
times, or traditionally, I thinkwe were sort of fighting for
that voice a little bit at themoment, it's been drowned out.
But it's all there's alwaysbeen, you know, figures within
the culture that have shiftedculture or evoked conversation,
culturally. And it the hip hopis, is the most influential
(22:17):
culture in the world, in myopinion. And, you know, in
England, we have our own versionof that. And I think we, again,
I think we're somewhatstruggling to hold on to that,
you know, for a number ofreasons. You know, I think
graffiti visually is a massivepart of hip hop, you know,
(22:42):
dance, obviously, music, music,I mean, poetry, there's so many
factors to hip hop, even sort ofstyle. Again, I think that you
see it every day everywhere, butpeople don't necessarily know
what to attribute it to. But,yeah, I think I think that is
(23:03):
naturally yeah, part of myidentity as well and who I am.
Culturally, I don't know if it.I don't know if I necessarily
identify it as hip hop, though.But yeah, I think yeah, you
could very much say that a lotof the values and themes of hip
(23:23):
hop have been an ever present inmy life.
Yeah, and in terms of thosevalues, your identity and
Brighton, how have you navigatedthat because, you know,
Brighton's a diverse city, but Ithink it's probably
(23:43):
predominantly perceived as verywhite, middle class, liberal.
You know, it's ridiculouslyexpensive, but at the same time,
it's got shocking levels of veryvisible homelessness, it's
become a city of real extremes,you know, in terms of wealth and
(24:03):
poverty. How did you navigate ifyou like your identity, your
cultural values, you'reinterested in, that kind of music
saying, when that's what kind ofdominated you if you like,
growing up?
Yeah, that's a great question.I'm still navigating it.
(24:26):
Ultimately, like you're sayingthe rent prices are just
ridiculous. It's very hard forme to exist in in Brighton for a
you know, in more ways than oneultimately. And a lot of my
peers have been priced out and alot of my peers are again,
London's more expensive but likeyou said in terms of like a
(24:47):
cultural sort of relationship,perhaps more people related up
in London or found a home up inLondon more so than they would
in Brighton, but for me I'm,that's something I'm trying to
develop down here. On the basis is that I've seen the potential
of it, I've seen it on a smallscale, I suppose or yeah, not at
(25:11):
its weakest, that's not thatmuch I want to say, I've seen it.
I've seen what it can do on sortof minimal resources, and even
those resources have beenstripped away in Brighton. So
for me, navigating was verydifficult. Again, it is promoted
as a diverse city, but it's notas diverse as London or
(25:31):
Manchester or Bristol or even,you know, like Leeds,
Birmingham, Nottingham anywherelike that it promotes itself as
being diverse and inclusive, butit is very white middle class. I
think even even my mum, youknow, my I was really fortunate,
I suppose my mum, having theseconversations with me earlier
(25:54):
about sort of class and, youknow, community and values and
things like that. So I think,again, that forms a lot of my
identity. And I think Brighton also, it's like, it's it's the
flowerbed for that to grow aswell. But a lot of that is being
lost or priced out, you know, inthe arts community and charity
(26:16):
sector. So it's increasinglyhard for me to exist, but it's
even harder for the nextgeneration of me's and creatives
to exist. And that's a big fearfor me as well. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, as extreme a wordas this sounds, there's a kind
(26:39):
of apartheid going on.
I don't think that'sextreme at all. Paula, I think
you know, you have, I think thatthere's some statistics to
suggest that you have some ofthe top 5% of wealth in the
country exist in in Brighton andsome of the bottom 5% exist in
(27:00):
in Brighton, you have somepeople within three miles of the
beach that have never visitedthere because they don't
if they can't afford the travelor, you know, it's too
expensive. When they are downthere. They don't they don't see
themselves reflected in it. Theydon't have any ownership over
it, despite, you know,contributing towards it
ultimately through taxes andwhatever else. But I don't think
(27:23):
apartheid is a strong word, Idon't think. What's the word I'm
looking for? You know, when theywhen they come and just invest
in spaces and take over,what's the word I'm looking
for? Like gentrification?
(27:43):
Gentrification. But I think evenI think gentrification is too
soft a word. And I thinkapartheid is probably it's
around the energy that weneed to be using at the moment
because people need tounderstand or recognize the
severity of what's happening, Ithink. Because yeah, I I think
(28:08):
Brighton is losing a lot of itscultural identity. And what
makes Brighton what it is.
Yeah. And when you relayeverything you were just saying
to the fact that youth servicesin the UK, over the last 10
years, cut by 70%. is mindboggling. And are we really
(28:32):
surprised that antisocialbehavior is soaring that mental
health issues depression inyoung people suicide is soaring,
knife crime is soaring. Andthat's not about proportioning
blame on those people it's aboutrecognizing very cruel and harsh
(28:53):
choices that have been made,choices to actually create
deprivations, there are nospaces. How do you how do you
feel about that? Because Iimagine you witness how that
translates as direct harm.
Yes, yeah, I witnessed itfirsthand. Sometime sometimes on
(29:14):
on a weekly basis,you know, the studio that I'm in
is housed by a music charitycalled Audio Active, that do a
lot of work with the localcommunity. They have a service
called Room to Rant, which is aspace for young men or I think
young women are invited as well.But there is also young women
(29:35):
only spaces but they facilitatespace for young men to get
things off their chest and youknow, support support them in
critical situations and theyhave been credited with saving a
number of lives this year alone.They are surviving on very
minimal resource. It's yeah, itfrightens me it worries me. I
(30:02):
feel, again with with the factthat I am aware and can observe
that I feel a responsibility totry and support where I can. And
yeah, again, because I supposebecoming a father as well is a
massive, it's a massiveconsideration, sort of for what
(30:26):
sort of environment is my songoing to grow up in? And I'd
want to say that I tried to dosomething about or I did do
something about it, you know?Yeah.
It genuinely is frightening whenyou think about lack of space
and of course, I'll mentionfor the listeners, you know, the
(30:49):
reason I met you was, of course,we attended the Brighton
University event during BrightonFestival Structures of
Community, which was inspired byMarwa Al Sabouni, who I have
interviewed in this season two,very joyously, completely
(31:10):
amazing, because of course, heremphasis is about community
harmony, building for peace andbuilding for hope. What has
always stood out to me and evenas far back as when I was
involved in work in Manchester,mentoring young people with a
number of social barriers,economic barriers, etc, etc.
(31:31):
There's also an added burden, ifyou like that when you're that
person coming from a place ofdiscrimination, particularly
when it's actually structuralin our society. There's that
added burden of having to bebraver, if you like having to be
(31:51):
pioneering having to be thechange. And whilst all of that
is very commendable, it's reallyhard. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, it's exhausting.It's exhausting. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So how do you? Howdo you manage that, from your
own point of view, you know,that you've had to already or
(32:14):
continue even to struggle withthat from your own childhood to
now and also with the youth,community members you work with?
And even the artists you manage?
Yeah. It's, again, it's aconstant battle or constant. It
(32:34):
needs constant constantmaintenance, ultimately, you
know, again, personally, if I'mnot in a good space, that has
consequences outwardly, youknow, firstly, at home with my
partner, my child, secondly,with my artists, you know,
beyond that with the widercommunity that that I offer
(32:55):
service to, and it's, it issomething that I'm aware of self
care, how important it is. Andit's something that I've, it
doesn't necessarily comenaturally to me. But it's
something that is criticalfor me to instill, ultimately,
(33:17):
because the consequencesotherwise are, you know, at
points critical. Yeah.
Yeah. And would you say thatthis all leads back to the
creative pathway that creativityoffers an opportunity for
exploration, curiosity,openness, are these are these
(33:39):
ingredients for for self helpeven?
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Ithink creativity, I think it was
art as that was talking aboutcreativity and art in in many
different forms, you know,socially, therapeutically. You
know, it amongst the communityand your interaction with the
(34:02):
community. And I think that'swhere my creativity thrives, you
know, is when I'm facilitatingothers creativity or others,
growth. That's, that's what youknow, that's the fire that burns
within me sort of likes lightsother fires. And this is an
(34:27):
intellect when he talks aboutsort of curiosity and creativity
reminds me of the seven C's ofself leadership, which I don't
know if you've heard about it'sa it's a Dr. Richard Swartz,
who's got a sort of theorycalled Internal Family Systems,
(34:47):
which is sort of the idea ofit's a healing I suppose. It's
with with the purpose of healingbut to help people reconnect
with their sort of core stateultimately and their self and
their purpose and the seven C'sof self leadership, I think our
confidence, calmness,creativity, clarity, curiosity,
(35:15):
again, courage, compassion. Andthen I think connectivity or
connectedness, I think he callsit, but connectivity. And I
think if if people feel thatstrength in those areas, they
will often feel fulfilled intheir life or purposeful in
their life. And for me, that'ssomething that I only, you know,
(35:40):
sort of researching or lookinginto over the lockdown period in
sort of, you know, isolation,doing a lot of self reflection
and shadow work, as they callit, you know, just really sort
of getting into the nitty grittyof things and you know, looking
at the man in the mirror, andthat, you know, that for me, I
suppose what you asked, yeah, itjust reminded me of that. So,
(36:05):
yeah, creativity, courage,curiosity, there are key factors
that I think we should beinstilling from a young age, you
know, and arming and tooling,our youth and ourselves with
this ammunition to take on theworld, which at times, and a lot
(36:26):
of times, particularly recentlyis really difficult. You know,
that's, that's fascinating.That's a fascinating reference,
you know, that that you'vecited, and just drilling down a
little bit more into that. Oneof the reasons, you know, I
wanted to explore courage and curiosity is to encourage us all
(36:50):
to look again at what do theyreally mean? Because so much
prejudice comes with language.So for example, Curiosity killed
the cat. I completely disagreewith that.
There's a longer phrase to that,isn't there? Yeah. What's the
last sentence?
Because my argument is, is thecat wasn't curious enough
because curiosity killed the catis basically saying, be risk
(37:13):
adverse. Don't explore don't dothis. Don't do that. It's very,
very narrow in for example, it'sa it's a prejudiced phrase, you
know, and courage weunderstandably associate, to
heroics. But normally, it's onthat scale of, of great heroics.
What I'm interested in from yourpoint of view, and in all of the
(37:36):
youth work you do,you're in the business of
recognizing wider active dailycourage, and that might be
taking part showing up tryingsomething new entering a new
space, particularly where youdon't feel you really belong.
Yeah. Yeah, I think I amnaturally quite emotional. And
(38:05):
I've, you know, I've beencredited with being quite
emotionally intelligent, Ithink, not necessarily out of
choice, but by force, you know,just to recognize what is this
I'm feeling so heavily and sointensely, you know, but, I
think to at times, I've beencritical of, of myself and the
emotion that I feel, I think,again, taking on this sort of
(38:31):
this internal family systemsmodel, I guess, and, and looking
at that emotion with curiosityand compassion. And so what is
what is this trying to teach mewhat is this saying to me is
this is this a compass for me,has been really helpful. You
know, and often when I'm feelingthe most nervous, or the most
(38:53):
uncertain, is when my courage isrelied upon, I suppose
unnecessary to sort of fulfillthat task or to take on that
task. After that, there's afeeling that you can't quite
describe, I suppose a sense ofachievement. Or, or pride or I
(39:17):
don't know you just you justfeel like your chest
sticks out a little bit more onyour chins a little bit higher
and you feel I suppose pride, abit bit proud. Not too proud,
but just okay, I've achievedsomething here that was
initially daunting. And I thinkif you can continue to conquer
(39:37):
yourself, and you know yourselfas an opponent at times, but as
a as a, as the, you know, yourbest opponent, the opponent
that's gonna teach you the mostabout yourself.
Yeah, that's a reallyinteresting way of putting it.
It's a reallyinteresting way of putting it
(39:59):
because When you referenced theidea of an opponent, it's about
that vulnerability, isn't itthat you may be experiencing and
therefore have to dig deep intofinding your own courage. But
I'm interested in exactly whatyou're saying that after facing
that challenge, whatever it is,and you have a sense of pride
(40:23):
a sense of self respect. Andthat's why I'm interested and
concerned that if we don't maybeall, look again, at what courage
means, or give ourselves credit,for small acts of courage, which
are however big in our ownlives, it's, it's almost a
deprivation of a way ofsupporting our health, our
(40:47):
mental health, you know, wouldyou agree with that?
Absolutely. I think it is,arguably, it's, it's vital for
our existence in our evolution,you know, to the point that
we're regressing otherwise. AndI think it is worrying again, if
you look at it sort of sociallyhow arguably docile we are and
(41:12):
have become, in a lot ofinstances, that you can put that
down to a number of reasons. Again, I don't think
it's helpful to blame anyone,but I think ultimately, the
consequences of that are, forme, quite worrying. Yeah, so
again, I definitely encouragecourage. But how to do that, at
(41:39):
scale or at mass is is quitedifficult for that message to
permeate I suppose. Or, I think,I think that's, if you find a
message for everyone to unitearound a big, you know, feel
like this is worth fighting for,then you've cracked it.
(41:59):
So this might be quite a quite abig question, in some ways,
because I'm interested in if youcan remember, what maybe would
stand out to you now as one ofyour earliest first acts of
courage, even if you were five,I quite like the piss off
statement. And also, what takescourage now?
(42:24):
Yeah. I think it's, what'sinteresting is that when you're
young, you don't necessarily seeit as courage, because you don't
know there's any opposition towhat you're doing. Whereas I
think, as you grow, yourecognize, okay, there's going
to be a potential negativeresponse to this, or there's
(42:47):
going to be feedback that I'mnot necessarily going to enjoy.
But I'm going to do itregardless. I think, when when
did I? I don't know, I thinkI've always been quite
courageous, I would say, youknow... When When did
(43:07):
it get the first positiveresponse maybe, was when I was
just doing things differently.And being a change maker and
uniting people around differentideas and sort of events, and
things like that. And I suppose,you know, entrepreneurialism
takes a degree of courage, andbelief, and confidence. And, you
(43:33):
know, walking in sort of fullfaith requires courage. And I
think, you know, again, sort ofcourage and faith are two things
that are sort of lacking, youknow, in society and culture at
the moment. We are. Yeah, Ithink I think faith is is a
massive component to that aswell. And sort of lack of lack
(43:55):
of courage. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's interesting. Youmentioned entrepreneurialism,
because I thought you had nodoubt being referred to as an
entrepreneur or fitting thatpsychology or that profile,
(44:16):
because you're someone who knowsrisk. And quite often that can
translate as therefore not beingafraid to take risks. So for
example, even working in themusic industry, is a tough game.
There's lots of unknowns. Andit's quite often a role that
isn't predefined. There'scertain things that you know,
(44:38):
you want to do, but it's also alot of invention and a lot of
imagination, a lot of makingthings happen. So do you feel
you live and work in the riskspace and rely on that courage
that you have from that point ofview to?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But Ithink it's the risk has been
(45:02):
isn't it been forced, I suppose,because other spaces they don't.
They don't exist for me, theydon't I don't exist within those
spaces and never have. So I'vehad to create my own
infrastructure, you know, andthe, it's actually more of a
risk to conform for me, becausethat leads to this depressive
(45:26):
state ultimately. And, you know,it's not good for my wellbeing.
That's, it says, that's abetrayal of self for me. You
know, and I suppose that's, youknow, going back to our point of
self respect, it's it's likedisrespectful to myself to
ignore what I'm feeling and howI feel. I think it for me, it's
(45:50):
been a case of maturing andregulating emotionally and being
able to express in somewhat of acalm way. But, yeah, I think
I've become, I've definitelybecome slightly more well, yeah,
more articulate, I'll say, butit's definitely something I'm
still working on, you know.
(46:12):
And in terms of being able todevelop, you know, whether, like
you were saying, I'm becomingmore articulate, you know.
Articulating how you want todevelop your own thoughts, your
own understanding, it brings usback to this critical need of
space or cultural spaces, where,in fact, you use the word in an
(46:35):
interview where we can'congregate'. And that's a real
deprivation, because unless wecan congregate and exchange, how
do we practice things likecuriosity, being open to each
other? How do we practice thingslike courage by having a go at
taking part in something? How,how critical or how much of a
(46:57):
crisis do you see the issue ofcultural spaces that offer
access, literally, to everyone,in view of the economic barriers
that are so high, particularlyin a city like Brighton, where
everything is just so expensive?
(47:20):
Yeah, it's, it's critical, youknow, it is quite literally safe
spaces, with with the economicsqueeze, it's crime increases,
domestic violence increases. Youknow, we've got parents at work,
both parents at work in someinstances, full time, you know,
(47:43):
children raising themselves, youknow, under no guidance or
supervision spaces thatpreviously used to guide and
observe and nurture don't exist.Or if they do exist, there's a
payment gateway or, you know,yeah, it's, it's at a critical
(48:06):
point, I think. And there's,there's evidence, there's
evidence to show what happenswithout these spaces. We can't
continue to ignore thatevidence. I do think we need to
build a new infrastructure and anew model. That is, these things
(48:27):
need to be of permanence, theycan't be temporary. They can't
come and go. They need to existas part of societal structure.
You know, it's, it's vital for ahealthy civilization in my
opinion.
Yeah. And is that what projectslike, Represent and Platform B
(48:48):
Radio do and you might want totalk a little about that, from
the listeners point of view, whomay not know about them.
I think they perhaps not so muchin a space. I mean, we occupy
spaces temporarily but and theimpact of those projects is
massive, considering how littleresource we've got to work with
and little space that we've gotto work with. Platform B has
(49:12):
some you know, short term spacesyou know, two year leases year
long leases that in a lot ofinstances given in kind
particularly in Brighton, whenyou're talking about rent prices
is unaffordable for you know,community projects and projects
that that have I done a realsocial impact, ultimately, you
(49:34):
know, I think they're both moreabout empowering voices. Really,
though, I think Platform Bnaturally as a broadcasting
network and radio station isabout empowering voices,
particularly youth voices. It'sa youth led radio station. And
you know, they're still in theirinfancy but they're, they're
(49:55):
doing some really, really greatwork around the city. Represent
is the the newborn brother ofMisrepresented, which is, has
been doing incredible work setup by Beck Fiddler and Joe
Bates, Joe Bates was actuallysomeone you know, like a
guardian angel for me when Iwas, you know, 17, 18 helped me
(50:17):
get funding to buy my firstdigital camera, which, you know,
I was doing a lot ofphotography and filmmaking for,
you know, my early career, and Iput a lot of my success down to
Joe Bates, and to be somewhatworking closely alongside her
now it's like it, it feelsreally full circle. So yeah, you
know, I feel like I've got aduty or responsibility to
(50:41):
projects like this on the basisof, of what they did to me. But
I also think with betterresource, you know, these
projects could quite literally,you know, change the world. And
yeah, that's, you know, that'sthe level of ambition or the
level of necessity, that thesort of, I have to kind of
(51:02):
deliver this sort of workultimately.
Yeah, what would you say, arethe transformations or the key
transformations you'rewitnessing, you know, when you
when you can recognize as apossibility here to change the
world. You're working withpeople that are often
disadvantaged or even excluded?What do you think is the main
(51:22):
transformation, you witness oncethey've been offered? A way of
being included in something andquite often a creative space?
Well, I think, quite often, thepoint that you're meeting these
people at is a dark place. Andjust to be able to show them
(51:43):
light, is is massive for them.And you quite often, you know,
hear people say, Oh, this hasbeen the most impactful thing in
my life. This is you don't knowhow much you've done for me. And
I think it's potentially they'reat a crossroads in their life,
(52:03):
you know, and this, I guess, ina capitalist system, this
there's a, I think there'ssomething called that the return
on social investment, right? Sothis is a you see an incredible
return on social investment inthat you've got these people
(52:23):
reengaged in society and feelingpositive and optimistic and
contributing. Again, it is verydifficult for a lot of these
people to navigate, navigatenavigate the current framework.
But I think, just to inspiresomething within them, to the
(52:43):
point where they become morecourageous and curious and
compassionate, even, you know,to say, they're, you know, there
actually are no experts at themoment. That's something I'm
really coming to realize thereare no experts. I think we're in
a time. Right now, that is justlike nothing we've we've seen
(53:06):
before, maybe we have butnothing on record that I think
we we've seen before. And I dothink there is a real shift. And
there is so much potential forthese projects to exist and
contribute to society and, youknow, empower communities and
just yeah, really, like changethe world. I just got, I can't
(53:27):
see anything beyond that,ultimately.
And are these values relating toanother project? I've heard you
mention, if projects the rightword, you've referenced 'new
society', but making it clear,you're not throwing that around
like a Tory slogan of 'build backbetter' or the 'new normal'
considering that looks likerecession and a cost of living
(53:49):
crisis. So wwould you liketo distinguish your reference to
new society?
I don't know. I think it's thenew society is a vision. Is
that's all I can describe it asand I, I've tried to find it.
I've tried to find the rightterm for it, is it? Is it? Is it
(54:15):
a Community Interest Company? Isit a charity? Is it a
collective? Yeah, I still Istill can't quite define it.
Ultimately, it's a vision thatI have, and a lot of other
people share as well. It's notmy vision, it's a vision. And
(54:35):
the more I talk to people aboutthis vision, not everyone agrees
with it. You know, a lot ofpeople don't necessarily want to
detach from their currentversion of reality. But I think
myself and a lot of my peers anda lot of my colleagues envision
something better than this, andgreater than this. And you know,
(54:57):
I think in your introduction,calling me an architect is like,
you know, that's for me is thatis an honor because that's what
in a traditional sense,considered the, one of the
highest levels of creativity,right. But I think a community
architect or a social architectis, is is of it's almost sort of
(55:18):
real high consciousness. I thinkit's a real high consideration
and awareness, but it's, it'ssomething that can only be
achieved collectively. It's notsomething that should be the
responsibility of one person. Sowith the new society, for me,
it's a case of Yeah, a vision,but something that I want to
unify people around and build aworkforce of, you know,
(55:42):
intellects, administrators,laborers, you know, voices,
artists, carers, you know, yeah,it's got so many different
strands to it. And I'm stilltrying to find the vocabulary
for it at the moment, but Ihaven't quite, but it's rooted
in, in, in life in reality inin, you know, the real spirit of
(56:10):
pure human, I guess, and how wecan exist and thrive
collectively. Yeah, something Ireally believe in.
Yeah, yeah. Because architectsand architecture is a really
important word, isn't it,particularly when we refer to it
as social architecture, as well.And, of course, Marwa Al
(56:32):
Sabouni, has written and spokenbrilliantly about inhumane
architecture, how, you know,architecture that isn't designed
for integration, in ourcommunities, obviously,
literally builds in conflicts,and everything you were just
saying about those ideas andvalues around the vision of a of
(56:55):
a new society would beresponding to that too. And it
seems a lot of work is neededfor more of us to realize we
should all be able to have avoice and be able to influence
and be able to be part of thatsocial architecture. Is that
(57:18):
where a lot of your focus isinvested to empower those
voices?
Yeah, it is very much. So it'svery, it's where my, my focus is
naturally. Yeah, naturally goes,but I suppose it's hard for me
to afford the attention, I wantto give it you know, or justify
(57:40):
the attention that I want togive this work, because it isn't
financially rewarding, you know,and that's the nature of this
current capitalist system. And,you know, we, I suppose
democracy in its current stateisn't, so isn't fit for purpose.
So that's, again, a lot of a lotof sort of consideration, or my
(58:04):
thoughts could go towards awall. I can see where this is
going, you know, this is thisisn't looking good. Currently,
we need to change path. So,yeah, a lot of my focus, a lot
of thoughts go towards that. Idon't have the I don't, I don't
necessarily, well, I won't say Idon't have the answers. I have
(58:25):
ideas. You know, I have ideasthat I need to work on and that
I need help with, and I needchallenging on. But, yeah, I
have an ambition that I believeis, is achievable. Yeah, with
the right sort of resource andworkforce behind it. And, you
(58:46):
know, this is something that canbe achieved locally, nationally,
you know, globally, whatever,but I'm focusing on what I
believe I can affect quiteimmediately, I suppose.
Yeah. And recognizing that thatactually, you do have some power
to do that. Because, of course,a lot of what we're talking
(59:08):
about is about power shift andpower struggle, isn't it?
100%. And, you know, I thinkthere's a incredible, incredible
person called Andre Anderson,who's based in London, who runs
an organization called Freedomand Balance. And, you know,
Andre would be brilliant forthis podcast as well. But right,
(59:29):
on Andre talks about reclaimingspace, and language and
authority, you know, reclaimingpower. And, you know, I think he
said, All authority has to beauthorized, you know, and what
(59:50):
he's done, you know, talking hejust so inspired by by Freedom
and Balance and Andre, but heset up an art college on his
local estate and is the headteacher of the art
college. And it's a publishinghouse. And, you know, the, the,
the members of the publishinghouse are the authors of their
(01:00:10):
estate and they are theauthority. And you know, they're
just reclaiming language andreclaiming power. And taking it
and not asking permission forit. Because it's, it's, there's
it's there, right. So, yeah, Ithink sort of the dissolving of
power, the decentralization ofpower. I'm really, really
(01:00:35):
interested in, I'm reallyinterested in sort of the web
three space, and how we can usetechnology to enhance our
reality, you know, not hide awayand bury our heads in a virtual
reality, but use this technologyto enhance our current reality.
I think the possibilities aremind blowing. I don't even I
(01:00:56):
don't think we're usingtechnology anywhere near the
best that we could ultimately.So yeah, I think reclaiming of
power, sort of restructuring ofsociety against still
democratically, but sort of fardecentralized to how it is now I
(01:01:18):
think is really important.Otherwise, the consequences are
quite dire to reality.
Yeah, exactly. There's a realurgency,
I believe. And that's why Ithink it's important to talk
about language too, to chooseyour words, carefully, but
courageously.
(01:01:40):
Yeah, yeah. Beautifully said andjust highlights again, you know,
just the importance of lookingat meaning and perceived meaning
and deconstructing meaning andreviewing meaning, like this
example of courage andcuriosity, and starting to
think, again, about how thesemeanings and words apply to us
(01:02:02):
in our lives. You know, isdemocracy really applying? You
know, let's look at that again.And is this democratic
enough? Am I being invited toparticipate enough? Yeah, you've
come up with some veryinteresting references that I'm
definitely going to go andchase. I
can send you more if you'd like.Yes, please. Yeah.
(01:02:25):
So as ever, I'm racing theclock. This is always a
complaint in every interview Ido, because I try and only steal
guests for an hour as opposed todays. But it does lead me
actually, to a quote, everythingyou've just said, leads me to a
(01:02:46):
quote that I think would reallyhelp us come to a conclusion in
this particular interview. I'llquote you, "No-one is coming to
save us but ourselves together,unified, energized, supported by
(01:03:07):
one another." And I really lovedthat. And of course, in relation
to the series question Can art save us is what you're saying,
recognizing that need ofsolidarity and, and ways of
building solidarity, which canquite often be through having
(01:03:27):
cultural shared spaces?
Absolutely. Yeah. Solidarity,unification, you know, shared
values. I think we're in a realdivisive time. At the moment. I
think we're focusing on ourdifferences far too much. Yeah,
I think we need to rebuild theweb. Rebuild the social thread
(01:03:49):
the social fabric, collectively.Yeah, absolutely. I think it's
urgent.
Yeah. I know, you literally haveto run to Glastonbury.
I know. Yeah,
I can't thank you enough formaking this time. I really
appreciate it. I knew you were avoice I wanted to invite.
(01:04:13):
Thank you for inviting, yeah,thank you for inviting me,
because I think through thingslike this, I find my voice more,
you know, and I just feelhonored to be a part of this
sort of congregation of voices.
It's just delightful. BecauseI'm hoping in terms of the
values you've shared, theseasons are, in effect, a
(01:04:34):
collaboration, a collaborationof voices, including the
listeners, the listeners who maycomment who may continue to
listen, who may be inspired.This is a collective experience.
We're all in it. It's not apassive action. So I can't thank
you enough. And I hope you havea brilliant time at Glastonbury.
Thank you so much, Paula. Ireally appreciate that. And
(01:04:56):
thanks for your time today.
Okay, I'll speak to you soonhopefully.
Yeah. Excellent take care.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion Can art save us? And my
(00:51):
guest today is Bobby Brown, acreative producer, artist,
manager and rising architect ofcommunity and culture with equal
access based in the city ofBrighton. He's a game changer in
youth work supporting creativeprojects, including music and
radio that changes the lives ofdisadvantaged and excluded young
people. He describes himself asa dream weaver, a bridge builder
(01:14):
and an optimist. And as someonewho relied on youth services
growing up, we're lucky to catchhim today. Just before he goes
to Glastonbury with the rap duo,he manages Frankie stew and
Harvey Gunn. He's already beenbehind r&b singer Ellie Ingram a
household name, and I'd say theHall of Fame has already got his
name on it. And he'll no doubtbe busy opening more doors when
(01:35):
he gets there. Hello, Bobby.
Wow. What an introduction thatyeah, that was incredible. Yeah.
Wow. Thank you, Paula. Thankyou.
I'm glad you like it. I lovewriting my introductions.
Because you're all suchmassively interesting people.
I'm very lucky to talk to all ofyou.
(01:56):
I feel lucky to just yeah, bedescribed as such, you know, I
think yeah, you put thattogether really well, and sort
of said it better than I couldmyself, I think,
Oh, bless you. Well, let's talkmore than to under to understand
that. And actually picking up onthat description of yourself as
(02:16):
a dream weaver, a bridgebuilder, and an optimist. Those
are lovely qualities, but Idoubt they're necessarily easy,
you know, when you're faced withso many different challenges,
and I just wondered where yourenergy comes from to be so open?
I, I don't actually know wherethe energy comes from, to be
(02:40):
honest, I know it, it permeatesthroughout my family both on my
mum and dad's side. I know thatperhaps for me, it's closer to
the surface than than othermembers of the family, I think
other members maybesuppress it or channel it in
different ways where I'm alittle bit more not necessarily
(03:01):
chaotic with it, but I'm quitespread far and wide with the
energy. And I think one of thethe main factors of that, I
suppose, or the main factors ofmy use of energy is that it, it
seems to be directed towardsauthority, or power structure or
(03:24):
infrastructure, a lot of thetime or a lot of my focus or
attention for whatever reasonwanders towards that. And it's
that, at the sort of, I supposemicro and macro in, you know,
just wider society. But thenalso, you know, real community
(03:45):
level, to even, you know,friendship groups and
relationships. I'm reallyinterested in sort of all
dynamics of human interactionand connectivity, you know.
Yeah
Well, this is what I thought wasinteresting when I was reading
about the fact that you wereactually eight years old when
(04:07):
you moved to Brighton. Andschool was difficult. But I
think that's probably veryinteresting that maybe that's
what's behind your openness oryour motivation now, and you
talked about being the mostengaged in many ways, but deemed
disruptive. So I was justinterested in what was going on
(04:30):
for you at that time.
Well, there was quite I, I oftensort of revisit this and you
know, reflect, I suppose, but Ithink it actually started
earlier than when I moved toBrighton. And this for me,
again, is that before I was evennecessarily conscious of what I
was doing. My mum was at the University of Reading. I was at
(04:54):
school in Reading I think I wasfive or four or five years old
and I wrote piss offbasically in chalk, in chalk on
the playground on thefloor. And you
know, my mum was called in and,you know, they they applauded me
for for my correct spelling butyou know, obviously it had to be
(05:17):
it had to be addressed. So itfeels like I've got this sort of
rebellious nature sort of,again, instilled within me from
before I can even remember orfind the root cause of but I
think what I've, what I'vediscovered particularly over
(05:37):
the last couple of years, Isuppose is that it, it is rooted
in, it's from the heart, Isuppose, ultimately, and it does
come from a good place. I thinkBrighton has in it a sort of
liberal nature. It's provided mewith a good backdrop of like
(05:58):
reference points and resourcesfor the arts, the community, and
the charity sector, which I'vebeen really inspired by. And
again, that forms part of myidentity. My mum used to work
for Brighton Housing Trust,which was based out of a
building called Community Base,which housed a lot of community
(06:18):
organizations and still does tothis day, and I used to, you
know, I used to go and sit inthe offices at Community Base
after school sometimes, youknow, waiting for my mom to
finish work. So I, I've alwayshad that around me, you know, I
think naturally, I've I'vealways been creative. But I
(06:41):
think, again, I don't know if itis just Brighton or my parents or
even my grandparents,you know, both my grandparents
sort of studied sociology, orboth my grandmother's should I
say, studied sociology at University. So there's, there's
that aspect within me, you know,so it's not just Brighton, but
(07:01):
Brighton is a massive part of myidentity ultimately. And I think
it's, it's, it's a part of myidentity that isn't necessarily
recognized, broader than Brighton,Brighton has a reputation for
certain things that don'tnecessarily represent me. So, or
others, you know, any of mypeers. So I'm quite interested
in not necessarily changing thenarrative, but you know, voicing
(07:24):
our story as well.
So it's pretty amazing that atage five, you are already
beginning your very creative,let's say creative protests.
And what's interesting iscreativity was in some way
(07:48):
around you. And I wondered whatyou were leaning towards, you
did say you were actuallyexpelled from from school, I
think year nine, and I wondered,maybe what wasn't being
harnessed, or what kind ofcreative outlets did you have
then? Or did that really beginwith some introduction to youth
(08:09):
services?
I guess so. I felt like that wasthe creative outlet or art form
that I identified with or feltrepresented me best, I guess,
somewhat culturally, in sort oflooking at what was happening in
London with the Grime Scene, andthings like that, was that that
(08:32):
was the culture or popularculture or youth culture at the
time for me growing up. And I, Irecognize myself within that,
and, you know, I was part of asmall scene in Brighton that was
making that music out of youthclubs, you know, and, and you
saw some, some incredibletalent. Sort of, yeah. grow from
(08:57):
from that space. You know,Jordan Stevens from Rizzle
Kicks. Harvey, you know,Frankie Stew and Harvey Gunn
they were in that space, BobbyStewart you know, even Rag and
Bone man was a sort of productof that environment to an
extent. So, yeah, it's, it's, Ithink I sort of lost the point I
(09:22):
lost my point a bit, but youknow, I think youth services and
being expelled from schoolcreativity, it didn't my
creativity didn't necessarilyexist within the curriculum or
typical spaces. Because that wasa little bit too restrictive. I
(09:44):
had too much energy and activeenergy to be sat down for an
hour. And you know, let's play foran hour a day, you know, sort of
thing I had far too much energyto give for that environment to
sort of suit me. So I didthrive in more of the, I suppose
physical environments. But I'veI've also had some, you know, I
(10:10):
suppose one of the the firstimpressions or first good
impressions on me was in schoolfrom a drama teacher at the
second school I went to aftergetting expelled. She really,
you know, saw my potential and,you know, instilled confidence
within me. So I'm, Ithink a lot about sort of the
(10:35):
school environment and educationand how someone like myself, how
you how you make it lessdifficult for someone like
myself, I suppose to thrive inan educational environment?
Because, yeah, a lot of my, alot of my yeah, I suppose skills
(10:56):
have been nurtured outside ofthat space, I guess.
Yeah, it's interesting, how wecan all thrive differently in
completely different spaces and,and actually being expelled, was
that interesting in terms of,was it frightening or was it
useful even?
It depends at what point you'relooking at it from, I think, in
(11:21):
the media, it was frightening,it was isolating, it was
frustrating. It was quite adifficult, sort of, yeah, it's a
very difficult period, Isuppose. And I did some
reflection on it over thelockdown, actually, like, look
through the school reports. And,you know, the reports around the
(11:43):
exclusion and the letters thatmy mum was writing about, you
know, even when was this, youknow, over 15 years ago now, but
there was an over representationof Black and mixed race children
getting excluded from schooleven then. And a lot of my mood
or energy at that time was, youknow, it was because I was going
(12:05):
through puberty, one, but alsothere was I think there was
quite a significant factoraround sort of black history
being taught at the time, and mysort of frustration with that
narrative. And also, the factthat I was probably one of two,
(12:25):
three in a classroom at anygiven time, you know, with a
brown face being taught about,you know, you're the slave,
these are the perpetrators. Andit was a very difficult, very
difficult sort of period Ifound. And I don't think the
school quite knew how to managethat, ultimately. So yeah, I
(12:49):
think, yeah, being expelled,it's again, it's part of my
identity, it's part of who I amnow. And a lot of the things
that I was criticized for, thenI'm sort of celebrated for now,
which is really strange. Butthat's, you know, yeah, I often
(13:09):
sort of reflect on thatultimately, and so yeah, that is
part of who I am. And it was,you know, you could say it's
sort of destiny or whatever,yeah, it's part of my story or
whatever but it's yeah, it'sdefinitely not something I I
ignore or, or pretend didn'thappen. You know.
I love the fact that despite thehorror, if you like, having been
(13:37):
punished for raising your voiceabout identity at school, that
cut to a few years later, as anadult, you're helping calm and
steer a crowd of 100,000 people,a Black Lives Matter protest in
Brighton actually assisting thepolice, you know who I think
(13:59):
even hand you a megaphone,covered in the local press. I
mean, isn't that amazing? Youknow, expelled to become
that kind of community voice.How did that feel considering
considering that's the struggleyou came from as a child?
It was, it was extremelyoverwhelming, to be honest. And
(14:23):
it's still sort of is, theripple effects of it is still
ongoing, you know, the fact thatwe're talking about this now,
and I think two years later,this really interesting sort of
period, I wasn't actually goingto go to the protest. I just
felt, I don't know I just had afeeling you know, that also, I
don't know if I want to go I canfeel this. It's it's evoking
(14:47):
something within me that like itmay be it was rooted in sort of
the school and you know, all ofthis and sort of bringing up a
lot of trauma or triggering andtriggering a lot of things
within me. But my partner wasgoing down there, and a lot of
friends were going down there.So there's a lot of, you know,
messages around like, oh, let'smeet here, let's do this in all
(15:09):
the groups that I was in, but Iwent down on my scooter, just
sort of, to observe. And yeah, Ithink this was the time of sort
of the Winston Churchill statueconversation in sort of the mass
media, you know, and sort of theprotection of English identity
(15:30):
versus yeah, Black Lives Matter,I guess. So I went, I went down
to the Memorial in Brighton andactually just, I could sort of
almost preempt what was going tohappen before the march or the
protest had even started. So Iwent over to the guys at the War
(15:53):
Memorial, and just startedengaging with them, and having a
conversation just saying, youknow, introduce myself and just
explain that my mom's my mom'sdad was, you know, in the war,
and, you know, sort of found apoint of mutual interest or
commonality, I suppose, and sortof built from that. So I planted
the seed very early, just again,I don't know if it was
(16:17):
consciously or sort ofsubconsciously, but I could
almost predict what was going tohappen. And then the march
started and sort of did a lap ofthe city center. And as it was
going towards the memorial, itcame to a halt for about five or
10 minutes. And that's when itwas almost like, Oh, I know
(16:38):
what's happening here. And itwas kicking off. And you know,
there's just a lot of shoutingand abuse, and they were split
up. So it's like that theprotest was in the road. And
then there was like this, theother sort of side of the road,
which is blocked off by a fence.And then there's the memorial on
the other side of that, which isalso fenced off. So there's like
a fence barrier in between,basically. So it wasn't
(17:02):
physical, it was just verbal.But obviously, it brought the
protest to a halt. So I sort ofmade my way to the memorial and
in between, and it was gettingit was heating up, you know, the
whole protest then started to,to change path and go round the
other side of the memorial tothe point that the memorial was
(17:23):
surrounded by the protest. Andit could have got incredibly,
incredibly violent. And yeah,horrific. I don't, you know,
dread to think what could havehappened, but the cameras were
there primed, like everyone elseknew that this was a possibility
as well. But yeah, I suppose onthe basis that I'd, I'd already
(17:47):
gone and built the relationshipwith them, I sort of met, put
myself in the middle, and toldthe protesters to keep it
moving. This wasn't the purposeof the protest, you know, don't
let them sabotage the messageand all of this sort of stuff.
And then on the other side, youknow, I said, you're well within
your right to prepare to protectwhat you believe is your
(18:08):
identity and all of this sort ofstuff. But let's not provoke
because at the end of the day,it's not gonna it's not going to
reflect well on anyone. So itwas just a bit of sort of
mediating and peacekeeping, Isuppose. But yeah, the police
did give me a megaphone, theyallowed me to stand on top of
their, you know, police van, andguide the protest, essentially,
(18:33):
and keep it moving. And, andthey continue to, well, not that
we worked together, but beyondthe protest, I suppose I was
contacted by the ChiefSuperintendent of Sussex police,
Nick May at the time,
via Twitter, strangely. And hecontacted me, and was asking for
(18:55):
help within, you know, thecommunity with young people, all
of this sort of stuff wanted toI don't know what he wanted to
be honest. But that was justquite an overwhelming period of
time. And, again, just was like,Yeah, I was sort of on autopilot
for three, three hours sort ofpeacekeeping and moving this
(19:17):
protest past this potential,chaotic scenario. So yeah, it
was wild, to say the least.
Yeah, it's interesting that youuse the word autopilot, because
I was gonna say, that was afrightening situation, you know,
when the tension in a crowd canexplode any second that could
(19:37):
have gone one way or the other.And that must have taken a lot
of courage. Even if you didn'tperceive it as courage. I mean,
it's amazing that you could, youhad such wise insights to talk
so calmly. And when I imagineyour your head was racing
(20:00):
or inside the level ofresponsibility you actually
suddenly had with a crowd of100,000 people was was huge. Is
that what it was? Like you werekind of racing inside and calm
on the outside?
Yeah, absolutely. I don't knowif I was even calm on the
outside. To be honest, I think Iwas quite animated. But I was
(20:20):
quite clear with myinstructions. If you don't I
mean, or clear with mycommunication. It wasn't, it
wasn't commonly communicated. Itwas quite urgently communicated,
and critically communicated incertain instances, you know? So,
yeah, I was racing, I was onautopilot. I didn't feel
(20:43):
uncomfortable. At any point,necessarily. I felt like it. It
was almost like a duty. Youknow, it's almost like a it's
almost how, imagine afirefighter when he sees a fire,
you know? Yeah,
yeah. It's just a kind of anautomatic response and incident
to do the right thing. It seemsto me that it is all about
(21:08):
voices, you know, that you'reelevating community Voices,
individual voices, and artists,voices, you know, the musicians
you work with. And in relationto the probation project you've
been involved in, Inoticed somebody stated hip hop
(21:32):
is, especially about unheardvoices. And is that, is that
really why you've ended up youknow, working with rap artists
working in that hip hop space?Is that what's meaningful to you
about that culture? Yeah, I
think I think culturally, again,it's always been a voice of the
(21:56):
times, or traditionally, I thinkwe were sort of fighting for
that voice a little bit at themoment, it's been drowned out.
But it's all there's alwaysbeen, you know, figures within
the culture that have shiftedculture or evoked conversation,
culturally. And it the hip hopis, is the most influential
(22:17):
culture in the world, in myopinion. And, you know, in
England, we have our own versionof that. And I think we, again,
I think we're somewhatstruggling to hold on to that,
you know, for a number ofreasons. You know, I think
graffiti visually is a massivepart of hip hop, you know,
(22:42):
dance, obviously, music, music,I mean, poetry, there's so many
factors to hip hop, even sort ofstyle. Again, I think that you
see it every day everywhere, butpeople don't necessarily know
what to attribute it to. But,yeah, I think I think that is
(23:03):
naturally yeah, part of myidentity as well and who I am.
Culturally, I don't know if it.I don't know if I necessarily
identify it as hip hop, though.But yeah, I think yeah, you
could very much say that a lotof the values and themes of hip
(23:23):
hop have been an ever present inmy life.
Yeah, and in terms of thosevalues, your identity and
Brighton, how have you navigatedthat because, you know,
Brighton's a diverse city, but Ithink it's probably
(23:43):
predominantly perceived as verywhite, middle class, liberal.
You know, it's ridiculouslyexpensive, but at the same time,
it's got shocking levels of veryvisible homelessness, it's
become a city of real extremes,you know, in terms of wealth and
(24:03):
poverty. How did you navigate ifyou like your identity, your
cultural values, you'reinterested in, that kind of music
saying, when that's what kind ofdominated you if you like,
growing up?
Yeah, that's a great question.I'm still navigating it.
(24:26):
Ultimately, like you're sayingthe rent prices are just
ridiculous. It's very hard forme to exist in in Brighton for a
you know, in more ways than oneultimately. And a lot of my
peers have been priced out and alot of my peers are again,
London's more expensive but likeyou said in terms of like a
(24:47):
cultural sort of relationship,perhaps more people related up
in London or found a home up inLondon more so than they would
in Brighton, but for me I'm,that's something I'm trying to
develop down here. On the basis is that I've seen the potential
of it, I've seen it on a smallscale, I suppose or yeah, not at
(25:11):
its weakest, that's not thatmuch I want to say, I've seen it.
I've seen what it can do on sortof minimal resources, and even
those resources have beenstripped away in Brighton. So
for me, navigating was verydifficult. Again, it is promoted
as a diverse city, but it's notas diverse as London or
(25:31):
Manchester or Bristol or even,you know, like Leeds,
Birmingham, Nottingham anywherelike that it promotes itself as
being diverse and inclusive, butit is very white middle class. I
think even even my mum, youknow, my I was really fortunate,
I suppose my mum, having theseconversations with me earlier
(25:54):
about sort of class and, youknow, community and values and
things like that. So I think,again, that forms a lot of my
identity. And I think Brighton also, it's like, it's it's the
flowerbed for that to grow aswell. But a lot of that is being
lost or priced out, you know, inthe arts community and charity
(26:16):
sector. So it's increasinglyhard for me to exist, but it's
even harder for the nextgeneration of me's and creatives
to exist. And that's a big fearfor me as well. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, as extreme a wordas this sounds, there's a kind
(26:39):
of apartheid going on.
I don't think that'sextreme at all. Paula, I think
you know, you have, I think thatthere's some statistics to
suggest that you have some ofthe top 5% of wealth in the
country exist in in Brighton andsome of the bottom 5% exist in
(27:00):
in Brighton, you have somepeople within three miles of the
beach that have never visitedthere because they don't
if they can't afford the travelor, you know, it's too
expensive. When they are downthere. They don't they don't see
themselves reflected in it. Theydon't have any ownership over
it, despite, you know,contributing towards it
ultimately through taxes andwhatever else. But I don't think
(27:23):
apartheid is a strong word, Idon't think. What's the word I'm
looking for? You know, when theywhen they come and just invest
in spaces and take over,what's the word I'm looking
for? Like gentrification?
(27:43):
Gentrification. But I think evenI think gentrification is too
soft a word. And I thinkapartheid is probably it's
around the energy that weneed to be using at the moment
because people need tounderstand or recognize the
severity of what's happening, Ithink. Because yeah, I I think
(28:08):
Brighton is losing a lot of itscultural identity. And what
makes Brighton what it is.
Yeah. And when you relayeverything you were just saying
to the fact that youth servicesin the UK, over the last 10
years, cut by 70%. is mindboggling. And are we really
(28:32):
surprised that antisocialbehavior is soaring that mental
health issues depression inyoung people suicide is soaring,
knife crime is soaring. Andthat's not about proportioning
blame on those people it's aboutrecognizing very cruel and harsh
(28:53):
choices that have been made,choices to actually create
deprivations, there are nospaces. How do you how do you
feel about that? Because Iimagine you witness how that
translates as direct harm.
Yes, yeah, I witnessed itfirsthand. Sometime sometimes on
(29:14):
on a weekly basis,you know, the studio that I'm in
is housed by a music charitycalled Audio Active, that do a
lot of work with the localcommunity. They have a service
called Room to Rant, which is aspace for young men or I think
young women are invited as well.But there is also young women
(29:35):
only spaces but they facilitatespace for young men to get
things off their chest and youknow, support support them in
critical situations and theyhave been credited with saving a
number of lives this year alone.They are surviving on very
minimal resource. It's yeah, itfrightens me it worries me. I
(30:02):
feel, again with with the factthat I am aware and can observe
that I feel a responsibility totry and support where I can. And
yeah, again, because I supposebecoming a father as well is a
massive, it's a massiveconsideration, sort of for what
(30:26):
sort of environment is my songoing to grow up in? And I'd
want to say that I tried to dosomething about or I did do
something about it, you know?Yeah.
It genuinely is frightening whenyou think about lack of space
and of course, I'll mentionfor the listeners, you know, the
(30:49):
reason I met you was, of course,we attended the Brighton
University event during BrightonFestival Structures of
Community, which was inspired byMarwa Al Sabouni, who I have
interviewed in this season two,very joyously, completely
(31:10):
amazing, because of course, heremphasis is about community
harmony, building for peace andbuilding for hope. What has
always stood out to me and evenas far back as when I was
involved in work in Manchester,mentoring young people with a
number of social barriers,economic barriers, etc, etc.
(31:31):
There's also an added burden, ifyou like that when you're that
person coming from a place ofdiscrimination, particularly
when it's actually structuralin our society. There's that
added burden of having to bebraver, if you like having to be
(31:51):
pioneering having to be thechange. And whilst all of that
is very commendable, it's reallyhard. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, it's exhausting.It's exhausting. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So how do you? Howdo you manage that, from your
own point of view, you know,that you've had to already or
(32:14):
continue even to struggle withthat from your own childhood to
now and also with the youth,community members you work with?
And even the artists you manage?
Yeah. It's, again, it's aconstant battle or constant. It
(32:34):
needs constant constantmaintenance, ultimately, you
know, again, personally, if I'mnot in a good space, that has
consequences outwardly, youknow, firstly, at home with my
partner, my child, secondly,with my artists, you know,
beyond that with the widercommunity that that I offer
(32:55):
service to, and it's, it issomething that I'm aware of self
care, how important it is. Andit's something that I've, it
doesn't necessarily comenaturally to me. But it's
something that is criticalfor me to instill, ultimately,
(33:17):
because the consequencesotherwise are, you know, at
points critical. Yeah.
Yeah. And would you say thatthis all leads back to the
creative pathway that creativityoffers an opportunity for
exploration, curiosity,openness, are these are these
(33:39):
ingredients for for self helpeven?
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Ithink creativity, I think it was
art as that was talking aboutcreativity and art in in many
different forms, you know,socially, therapeutically. You
know, it amongst the communityand your interaction with the
(34:02):
community. And I think that'swhere my creativity thrives, you
know, is when I'm facilitatingothers creativity or others,
growth. That's, that's what youknow, that's the fire that burns
within me sort of likes lightsother fires. And this is an
(34:27):
intellect when he talks aboutsort of curiosity and creativity
reminds me of the seven C's ofself leadership, which I don't
know if you've heard about it'sa it's a Dr. Richard Swartz,
who's got a sort of theorycalled Internal Family Systems,
(34:47):
which is sort of the idea ofit's a healing I suppose. It's
with with the purpose of healingbut to help people reconnect
with their sort of core stateultimately and their self and
their purpose and the seven C'sof self leadership, I think our
confidence, calmness,creativity, clarity, curiosity,
(35:15):
again, courage, compassion. Andthen I think connectivity or
connectedness, I think he callsit, but connectivity. And I
think if if people feel thatstrength in those areas, they
will often feel fulfilled intheir life or purposeful in
their life. And for me, that'ssomething that I only, you know,
(35:40):
sort of researching or lookinginto over the lockdown period in
sort of, you know, isolation,doing a lot of self reflection
and shadow work, as they callit, you know, just really sort
of getting into the nitty grittyof things and you know, looking
at the man in the mirror, andthat, you know, that for me, I
suppose what you asked, yeah, itjust reminded me of that. So,
(36:05):
yeah, creativity, courage,curiosity, there are key factors
that I think we should beinstilling from a young age, you
know, and arming and tooling,our youth and ourselves with
this ammunition to take on theworld, which at times, and a lot
(36:26):
of times, particularly recentlyis really difficult. You know,
that's, that's fascinating.That's a fascinating reference,
you know, that that you'vecited, and just drilling down a
little bit more into that. Oneof the reasons, you know, I
wanted to explore courage and curiosity is to encourage us all
(36:50):
to look again at what do theyreally mean? Because so much
prejudice comes with language.So for example, Curiosity killed
the cat. I completely disagreewith that.
There's a longer phrase to that,isn't there? Yeah. What's the
last sentence?
Because my argument is, is thecat wasn't curious enough
because curiosity killed the catis basically saying, be risk
(37:13):
adverse. Don't explore don't dothis. Don't do that. It's very,
very narrow in for example, it'sa it's a prejudiced phrase, you
know, and courage weunderstandably associate, to
heroics. But normally, it's onthat scale of, of great heroics.
What I'm interested in from yourpoint of view, and in all of the
(37:36):
youth work you do,you're in the business of
recognizing wider active dailycourage, and that might be
taking part showing up tryingsomething new entering a new
space, particularly where youdon't feel you really belong.
Yeah. Yeah, I think I amnaturally quite emotional. And
(38:05):
I've, you know, I've beencredited with being quite
emotionally intelligent, Ithink, not necessarily out of
choice, but by force, you know,just to recognize what is this
I'm feeling so heavily and sointensely, you know, but, I
think to at times, I've beencritical of, of myself and the
emotion that I feel, I think,again, taking on this sort of
(38:31):
this internal family systemsmodel, I guess, and, and looking
at that emotion with curiosityand compassion. And so what is
what is this trying to teach mewhat is this saying to me is
this is this a compass for me,has been really helpful. You
know, and often when I'm feelingthe most nervous, or the most
(38:53):
uncertain, is when my courage isrelied upon, I suppose
unnecessary to sort of fulfillthat task or to take on that
task. After that, there's afeeling that you can't quite
describe, I suppose a sense ofachievement. Or, or pride or I
(39:17):
don't know you just you justfeel like your chest
sticks out a little bit more onyour chins a little bit higher
and you feel I suppose pride, abit bit proud. Not too proud,
but just okay, I've achievedsomething here that was
initially daunting. And I thinkif you can continue to conquer
(39:37):
yourself, and you know yourselfas an opponent at times, but as
a as a, as the, you know, yourbest opponent, the opponent
that's gonna teach you the mostabout yourself.
Yeah, that's a reallyinteresting way of putting it.
It's a reallyinteresting way of putting it
(39:59):
because When you referenced theidea of an opponent, it's about
that vulnerability, isn't itthat you may be experiencing and
therefore have to dig deep intofinding your own courage. But
I'm interested in exactly whatyou're saying that after facing
that challenge, whatever it is,and you have a sense of pride
(40:23):
a sense of self respect. Andthat's why I'm interested and
concerned that if we don't maybeall, look again, at what courage
means, or give ourselves credit,for small acts of courage, which
are however big in our ownlives, it's, it's almost a
deprivation of a way ofsupporting our health, our
(40:47):
mental health, you know, wouldyou agree with that?
Absolutely. I think it is,arguably, it's, it's vital for
our existence in our evolution,you know, to the point that
we're regressing otherwise. AndI think it is worrying again, if
you look at it sort of sociallyhow arguably docile we are and
(41:12):
have become, in a lot ofinstances, that you can put that
down to a number of reasons. Again, I don't think
it's helpful to blame anyone,but I think ultimately, the
consequences of that are, forme, quite worrying. Yeah, so
again, I definitely encouragecourage. But how to do that, at
(41:39):
scale or at mass is is quitedifficult for that message to
permeate I suppose. Or, I think,I think that's, if you find a
message for everyone to unitearound a big, you know, feel
like this is worth fighting for,then you've cracked it.
(41:59):
So this might be quite a quite abig question, in some ways,
because I'm interested in if youcan remember, what maybe would
stand out to you now as one ofyour earliest first acts of
courage, even if you were five,I quite like the piss off
statement. And also, what takescourage now?
(42:24):
Yeah. I think it's, what'sinteresting is that when you're
young, you don't necessarily seeit as courage, because you don't
know there's any opposition towhat you're doing. Whereas I
think, as you grow, yourecognize, okay, there's going
to be a potential negativeresponse to this, or there's
(42:47):
going to be feedback that I'mnot necessarily going to enjoy.
But I'm going to do itregardless. I think, when when
did I? I don't know, I thinkI've always been quite
courageous, I would say, youknow... When When did
(43:07):
it get the first positiveresponse maybe, was when I was
just doing things differently.And being a change maker and
uniting people around differentideas and sort of events, and
things like that. And I suppose,you know, entrepreneurialism
takes a degree of courage, andbelief, and confidence. And, you
(43:33):
know, walking in sort of fullfaith requires courage. And I
think, you know, again, sort ofcourage and faith are two things
that are sort of lacking, youknow, in society and culture at
the moment. We are. Yeah, Ithink I think faith is is a
massive component to that aswell. And sort of lack of lack
(43:55):
of courage. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's interesting. Youmentioned entrepreneurialism,
because I thought you had nodoubt being referred to as an
entrepreneur or fitting thatpsychology or that profile,
(44:16):
because you're someone who knowsrisk. And quite often that can
translate as therefore not beingafraid to take risks. So for
example, even working in themusic industry, is a tough game.
There's lots of unknowns. Andit's quite often a role that
isn't predefined. There'scertain things that you know,
(44:38):
you want to do, but it's also alot of invention and a lot of
imagination, a lot of makingthings happen. So do you feel
you live and work in the riskspace and rely on that courage
that you have from that point ofview to?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But Ithink it's the risk has been
(45:02):
isn't it been forced, I suppose,because other spaces they don't.
They don't exist for me, theydon't I don't exist within those
spaces and never have. So I'vehad to create my own
infrastructure, you know, andthe, it's actually more of a
risk to conform for me, becausethat leads to this depressive
(45:26):
state ultimately. And, you know,it's not good for my wellbeing.
That's, it says, that's abetrayal of self for me. You
know, and I suppose that's, youknow, going back to our point of
self respect, it's it's likedisrespectful to myself to
ignore what I'm feeling and howI feel. I think it for me, it's
(45:50):
been a case of maturing andregulating emotionally and being
able to express in somewhat of acalm way. But, yeah, I think
I've become, I've definitelybecome slightly more well, yeah,
more articulate, I'll say, butit's definitely something I'm
still working on, you know.
(46:12):
And in terms of being able todevelop, you know, whether, like
you were saying, I'm becomingmore articulate, you know.
Articulating how you want todevelop your own thoughts, your
own understanding, it brings usback to this critical need of
space or cultural spaces, where,in fact, you use the word in an
(46:35):
interview where we can'congregate'. And that's a real
deprivation, because unless wecan congregate and exchange, how
do we practice things likecuriosity, being open to each
other? How do we practice thingslike courage by having a go at
taking part in something? How,how critical or how much of a
(46:57):
crisis do you see the issue ofcultural spaces that offer
access, literally, to everyone,in view of the economic barriers
that are so high, particularlyin a city like Brighton, where
everything is just so expensive?
(47:20):
Yeah, it's, it's critical, youknow, it is quite literally safe
spaces, with with the economicsqueeze, it's crime increases,
domestic violence increases. Youknow, we've got parents at work,
both parents at work in someinstances, full time, you know,
(47:43):
children raising themselves, youknow, under no guidance or
supervision spaces thatpreviously used to guide and
observe and nurture don't exist.Or if they do exist, there's a
payment gateway or, you know,yeah, it's, it's at a critical
(48:06):
point, I think. And there's,there's evidence, there's
evidence to show what happenswithout these spaces. We can't
continue to ignore thatevidence. I do think we need to
build a new infrastructure and anew model. That is, these things
(48:27):
need to be of permanence, theycan't be temporary. They can't
come and go. They need to existas part of societal structure.
You know, it's, it's vital for ahealthy civilization in my
opinion.
Yeah. And is that what projectslike, Represent and Platform B
(48:48):
Radio do and you might want totalk a little about that, from
the listeners point of view, whomay not know about them.
I think they perhaps not so muchin a space. I mean, we occupy
spaces temporarily but and theimpact of those projects is
massive, considering how littleresource we've got to work with
and little space that we've gotto work with. Platform B has
(49:12):
some you know, short term spacesyou know, two year leases year
long leases that in a lot ofinstances given in kind
particularly in Brighton, whenyou're talking about rent prices
is unaffordable for you know,community projects and projects
that that have I done a realsocial impact, ultimately, you
(49:34):
know, I think they're both moreabout empowering voices. Really,
though, I think Platform Bnaturally as a broadcasting
network and radio station isabout empowering voices,
particularly youth voices. It'sa youth led radio station. And
you know, they're still in theirinfancy but they're, they're
(49:55):
doing some really, really greatwork around the city. Represent
is the the newborn brother ofMisrepresented, which is, has
been doing incredible work setup by Beck Fiddler and Joe
Bates, Joe Bates was actuallysomeone you know, like a
guardian angel for me when Iwas, you know, 17, 18 helped me
(50:17):
get funding to buy my firstdigital camera, which, you know,
I was doing a lot ofphotography and filmmaking for,
you know, my early career, and Iput a lot of my success down to
Joe Bates, and to be somewhatworking closely alongside her
now it's like it, it feelsreally full circle. So yeah, you
know, I feel like I've got aduty or responsibility to
(50:41):
projects like this on the basisof, of what they did to me. But
I also think with betterresource, you know, these
projects could quite literally,you know, change the world. And
yeah, that's, you know, that'sthe level of ambition or the
level of necessity, that thesort of, I have to kind of
(51:02):
deliver this sort of workultimately.
Yeah, what would you say, arethe transformations or the key
transformations you'rewitnessing, you know, when you
when you can recognize as apossibility here to change the
world. You're working withpeople that are often
disadvantaged or even excluded?What do you think is the main
(51:22):
transformation, you witness oncethey've been offered? A way of
being included in something andquite often a creative space?
Well, I think, quite often, thepoint that you're meeting these
people at is a dark place. Andjust to be able to show them
(51:43):
light, is is massive for them.And you quite often, you know,
hear people say, Oh, this hasbeen the most impactful thing in
my life. This is you don't knowhow much you've done for me. And
I think it's potentially they'reat a crossroads in their life,
(52:03):
you know, and this, I guess, ina capitalist system, this
there's a, I think there'ssomething called that the return
on social investment, right? Sothis is a you see an incredible
return on social investment inthat you've got these people
(52:23):
reengaged in society and feelingpositive and optimistic and
contributing. Again, it is verydifficult for a lot of these
people to navigate, navigatenavigate the current framework.
But I think, just to inspiresomething within them, to the
(52:43):
point where they become morecourageous and curious and
compassionate, even, you know,to say, they're, you know, there
actually are no experts at themoment. That's something I'm
really coming to realize thereare no experts. I think we're in
a time. Right now, that is justlike nothing we've we've seen
(53:06):
before, maybe we have butnothing on record that I think
we we've seen before. And I dothink there is a real shift. And
there is so much potential forthese projects to exist and
contribute to society and, youknow, empower communities and
just yeah, really, like changethe world. I just got, I can't
(53:27):
see anything beyond that,ultimately.
And are these values relating toanother project? I've heard you
mention, if projects the rightword, you've referenced 'new
society', but making it clear,you're not throwing that around
like a Tory slogan of 'build backbetter' or the 'new normal'
considering that looks likerecession and a cost of living
(53:49):
crisis. So wwould you liketo distinguish your reference to
new society?
I don't know. I think it's thenew society is a vision. Is
that's all I can describe it asand I, I've tried to find it.
I've tried to find the rightterm for it, is it? Is it? Is it
(54:15):
a Community Interest Company? Isit a charity? Is it a
collective? Yeah, I still Istill can't quite define it.
Ultimately, it's a vision thatI have, and a lot of other
people share as well. It's notmy vision, it's a vision. And
(54:35):
the more I talk to people aboutthis vision, not everyone agrees
with it. You know, a lot ofpeople don't necessarily want to
detach from their currentversion of reality. But I think
myself and a lot of my peers anda lot of my colleagues envision
something better than this, andgreater than this. And you know,
(54:57):
I think in your introduction,calling me an architect is like,
you know, that's for me is thatis an honor because that's what
in a traditional sense,considered the, one of the
highest levels of creativity,right. But I think a community
architect or a social architectis, is is of it's almost sort of
(55:18):
real high consciousness. I thinkit's a real high consideration
and awareness, but it's, it'ssomething that can only be
achieved collectively. It's notsomething that should be the
responsibility of one person. Sowith the new society, for me,
it's a case of Yeah, a vision,but something that I want to
unify people around and build aworkforce of, you know,
(55:42):
intellects, administrators,laborers, you know, voices,
artists, carers, you know, yeah,it's got so many different
strands to it. And I'm stilltrying to find the vocabulary
for it at the moment, but Ihaven't quite, but it's rooted
in, in, in life in reality inin, you know, the real spirit of
(56:10):
pure human, I guess, and how wecan exist and thrive
collectively. Yeah, something Ireally believe in.
Yeah, yeah. Because architectsand architecture is a really
important word, isn't it,particularly when we refer to it
as social architecture, as well.And, of course, Marwa Al
(56:32):
Sabouni, has written and spokenbrilliantly about inhumane
architecture, how, you know,architecture that isn't designed
for integration, in ourcommunities, obviously,
literally builds in conflicts,and everything you were just
saying about those ideas andvalues around the vision of a of
(56:55):
a new society would beresponding to that too. And it
seems a lot of work is neededfor more of us to realize we
should all be able to have avoice and be able to influence
and be able to be part of thatsocial architecture. Is that
(57:18):
where a lot of your focus isinvested to empower those
voices?
Yeah, it is very much. So it'svery, it's where my, my focus is
naturally. Yeah, naturally goes,but I suppose it's hard for me
to afford the attention, I wantto give it you know, or justify
(57:40):
the attention that I want togive this work, because it isn't
financially rewarding, you know,and that's the nature of this
current capitalist system. And,you know, we, I suppose
democracy in its current stateisn't, so isn't fit for purpose.
So that's, again, a lot of a lotof sort of consideration, or my
(58:04):
thoughts could go towards awall. I can see where this is
going, you know, this is thisisn't looking good. Currently,
we need to change path. So,yeah, a lot of my focus, a lot
of thoughts go towards that. Idon't have the I don't, I don't
necessarily, well, I won't say Idon't have the answers. I have
(58:25):
ideas. You know, I have ideasthat I need to work on and that
I need help with, and I needchallenging on. But, yeah, I
have an ambition that I believeis, is achievable. Yeah, with
the right sort of resource andworkforce behind it. And, you
(58:46):
know, this is something that canbe achieved locally, nationally,
you know, globally, whatever,but I'm focusing on what I
believe I can affect quiteimmediately, I suppose.
Yeah. And recognizing that thatactually, you do have some power
to do that. Because, of course,a lot of what we're talking
(59:08):
about is about power shift andpower struggle, isn't it?
100%. And, you know, I thinkthere's a incredible, incredible
person called Andre Anderson,who's based in London, who runs
an organization called Freedomand Balance. And, you know,
Andre would be brilliant forthis podcast as well. But right,
(59:29):
on Andre talks about reclaimingspace, and language and
authority, you know, reclaimingpower. And, you know, I think he
said, All authority has to beauthorized, you know, and what
(59:50):
he's done, you know, talking hejust so inspired by by Freedom
and Balance and Andre, but heset up an art college on his
local estate and is the headteacher of the art
college. And it's a publishinghouse. And, you know, the, the,
the members of the publishinghouse are the authors of their
(01:00:10):
estate and they are theauthority. And you know, they're
just reclaiming language andreclaiming power. And taking it
and not asking permission forit. Because it's, it's, there's
it's there, right. So, yeah, Ithink sort of the dissolving of
power, the decentralization ofpower. I'm really, really
(01:00:35):
interested in, I'm reallyinterested in sort of the web
three space, and how we can usetechnology to enhance our
reality, you know, not hide awayand bury our heads in a virtual
reality, but use this technologyto enhance our current reality.
I think the possibilities aremind blowing. I don't even I
(01:00:56):
don't think we're usingtechnology anywhere near the
best that we could ultimately.So yeah, I think reclaiming of
power, sort of restructuring ofsociety against still
democratically, but sort of fardecentralized to how it is now I
(01:01:18):
think is really important.Otherwise, the consequences are
quite dire to reality.
Yeah, exactly. There's a realurgency,
I believe. And that's why Ithink it's important to talk
about language too, to chooseyour words, carefully, but
courageously.
(01:01:40):
Yeah, yeah. Beautifully said andjust highlights again, you know,
just the importance of lookingat meaning and perceived meaning
and deconstructing meaning andreviewing meaning, like this
example of courage andcuriosity, and starting to
think, again, about how thesemeanings and words apply to us
(01:02:02):
in our lives. You know, isdemocracy really applying? You
know, let's look at that again.And is this democratic
enough? Am I being invited toparticipate enough? Yeah, you've
come up with some veryinteresting references that I'm
definitely going to go andchase. I
can send you more if you'd like.Yes, please. Yeah.
(01:02:25):
So as ever, I'm racing theclock. This is always a
complaint in every interview Ido, because I try and only steal
guests for an hour as opposed todays. But it does lead me
actually, to a quote, everythingyou've just said, leads me to a
(01:02:46):
quote that I think would reallyhelp us come to a conclusion in
this particular interview. I'llquote you, "No-one is coming to
save us but ourselves together,unified, energized, supported by
(01:03:07):
one another." And I really lovedthat. And of course, in relation
to the series question Can art save us is what you're saying,
recognizing that need ofsolidarity and, and ways of
building solidarity, which canquite often be through having
(01:03:27):
cultural shared spaces?
Absolutely. Yeah. Solidarity,unification, you know, shared
values. I think we're in a realdivisive time. At the moment. I
think we're focusing on ourdifferences far too much. Yeah,
I think we need to rebuild theweb. Rebuild the social thread
(01:03:49):
the social fabric, collectively.Yeah, absolutely. I think it's
urgent.
Yeah. I know, you literally haveto run to Glastonbury.
I know. Yeah,
I can't thank you enough formaking this time. I really
appreciate it. I knew you were avoice I wanted to invite.
(01:04:13):
Thank you for inviting, yeah,thank you for inviting me,
because I think through thingslike this, I find my voice more,
you know, and I just feelhonored to be a part of this
sort of congregation of voices.
It's just delightful. BecauseI'm hoping in terms of the
values you've shared, theseasons are, in effect, a
(01:04:34):
collaboration, a collaborationof voices, including the
listeners, the listeners who maycomment who may continue to
listen, who may be inspired.This is a collective experience.
We're all in it. It's not apassive action. So I can't thank
you enough. And I hope you havea brilliant time at Glastonbury.
Thank you so much, Paula. Ireally appreciate that. And
(01:04:56):
thanks for your time today.
Okay, I'll speak to you soonhopefully.
Yeah. Excellent take care.
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