July 30, 2022 • 44 mins
Marice Cumber is one of the UK’s most compelling ceramic artists. She presents her own emotions, fears and vulnerabilities in her work and even cowardice shows up, no doubt kicking and screaming. Her large, over-sized, ceramic cups hold and display her raw emotions. They share the edgy qualities of German Expressionism by showing inner feelings and embracing the alternative but keeping a healthy focus on individual strength too. Marice is also the founder and director of Accumulate, the Art School for the Homeless and she has been committed to creativity as a way of empowering people who are homeless to move forward positively in their lives – you could say helping to re-fill their own cups with possibility and opportunity. We talk about cowardice, courage, mental health, purpose through crisis and how we can change adversity in our lives through creativity.
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can also be found here: https://www.canartsaveus.com
Discover Marice Cumber:
https://www.instagram.com/maricecumber/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflict. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? And my
(00:51):
guest today is Marice Cumber, oneof the UK's most interesting
ceramic artists. She presentsher own emotions, fears and
vulnerabilities in her work, andeven cowardice shows up probably
kicking and screaming. Her largeoversized ceramic cups hold and
display her emotions in awonderful Tim Burton esque way.
(01:11):
I wouldn't be surprised to seeher work dress some of his
film sets sharing edgy qualitiesof German expressionism showing
feelings, embracing thealternative but keeping a
healthy focus on individualstrength. These cups would
dress a far more interestingAlice in Wonderland Tea Party
but like hotcakes, they sell outfast. As importantly, Marice is
(01:35):
also the founder and director ofAccumulate the Art School for
the Homeless. And she has beencommitted to creativity as a way
of empowering people who arehomeless to move forward
positively in their lives, youcould say, helping to refill
their own cups with possibilityand opportunity. Hello, Marice,
(01:57):
It's really great to have youhere today.
Hello, thank you, what a niceintroduction. Okay, now listen,
I always say never give yourkids unusual names right.
My name is Marice. I should havesaid that before. But just so
you know.
Bless you. Okay, so my guesttoday is Marice Cumber, thank
(02:18):
you. So Marice, let'sstart with a very important
statement you make on one ofyour cups, where you celebrate,
"I am an artist now." Is this ajourney of courage?
Yeah, I mean, the reason I meanI made that was because it's
(02:40):
about identity. And I think youhave a vision of what you might
want to be or who you are. Andthat vision is with you quite a
long time. And sometimes ithappens. And that's great. And
you fulfill it and sometimesit's hidden or suppressed, or
sometimes you just do somethingelse. And that's also really,
(03:00):
really fun. And I went back tomaking ceramics when I was 57.
And so at a much more matureage, I would say, and I'd
stopped working for, you know,stop making ceramics for you
know, good for like 25, 30 years,just because of life, really,
you know, otherresponsibilities. And I got,
(03:21):
what might you say is, like,spotted quite early on. And, you
know, that piece I made for anexhibition I had last September.
And last January was my firstpublic exhibition. So I, I, you
know, within a very small periodof time, I pivoted so to answer
your question yes, it was mesaying "I am an artist now" you
(03:42):
know, I'm not gonna beidentified, as you know, an
educator, you know, I had abusiness, I'm a parent, I'm a
wife, you know, I'm all thesesorts of things. But really what
I always wanted to be with artists, so it's like saying, I
am an artist now. And if youturn over on the other side, it
says "The rest was just asubstitute." Because it was
(04:03):
really saying about, you know,even though I've achieved you
know, some fantastic things, Ilook back, you know, I have, you
know, achieved and had impact,but they were all in a way,
substituting what I reallywanted to do, some displacing
of what I should have beendoing was something else.
(04:25):
Because I was either toocowardly, or I didn't have the
time or I didn't respect myselfenough, or I didn't value myself
enough. I didn't think I wasgood enough. But now here I
am now just 60 you know, anartist and selling my work and
like, it's like incredible to beable to say that.
It's really exciting. And Ireally wonder if there was
(04:46):
almost a moment, you know, whenyou describe having to wrestle
with things like cowardice orthe fear of making that big
change, you know, was there amoment where you had to really
confront that What did that feellike when However frightened you
may have been, you finallydecided I'm doing this anyway.
(05:06):
That's interesting. So youreferred earlier about
Accumulate, Accumulate isthe Art school for the homeless and
we have some really fantasticsubmissions. And one of these
exhibitions was hosted at TheGuardian, which is like,
fantastic, right? And everybody's there, and it's all
buzzing, happening. And a veryold friend came up to me and
whispered in my ear, and hegoes, this is all very well
(05:28):
Marice, but when are you gonnaget back to your ceramics? And
that was like a dagger to myheart, it was also like, well,
this is all nice, a busy show or whatever, you know, gives
you a status, maybe could lookat it like that, that
exhibition, but actually, at theheart, you're an artist, you're
just denying yourself, you'reavoiding it. And literally the
(05:49):
next day, you know, I justthought that's it. And I went and
sort of rented, you know, astudio space in a sort of, like
community led studio, very softand early steps. And, you know,
went and rented it, you know, Ithink you're allowed to have
like, 15 hours a week orsomething like that. And, you
know, the first day I go there,and you just smell the
(06:10):
environment, the clay, thekilns, you know, you look around
you, and I just thought, yeah,this is I'm just, I'm just
feeling good now. So, you know,so it was like, yeah, it was
that moment, I think. It waslike 2017, 2018.
So is this your sense of freedomis the smell of clay, your sense
(06:32):
of freedom? You've been veryclear about talking about
freedom and how it's differentfor everybody. And very positive
in that no one is stopping menow.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the onlyperson that stopped me doing
what I should have been doing,even though you have external
pressures and I thinkthis is very prevalent,
(06:53):
actually, for women. You know,no woman feels, you know,
women often feel under pressureto not do their creative
activity, or what actually givesthem that huge fulfillment,
because they've got to be inthis sort of Mother role, right?
No man gives up their painting,they're writing their
photography, because they've gotkids, that just doesn't happen.
(07:16):
No man, I know, hasgiven that up, right? And said,
Oh, no, I don't have timebecause I want to do so and
spend all this time my kids, butfor women, it really is a
challenge, it's a huge challengeto say, I'm shutting the door,
I'm having my own space, youknow, I need to do this, I need
to do this. And we denyourselves because of these
external pressures. And becauseof the external pressures that
(07:38):
need just gnaws at you. And youknow, it, it's like a, a
boiling, you know, pot inside,it gnaws at you, you don't feel
fulfilled, you're frustrated,you're angry or resentful. You
don't feel valued, you haven'treached what you needed to
reach, you know, that's insideyou for so long. And for me,
(07:58):
that was inside of me literallyfor like, 25, 26 years, you know,
I've made these extravagantbirthday cakes, I mean,
honestly, you should have seenthem. And, you know, I was
channeling my creativity intovery sort of substituted sort of
areas, you know, there's almost,but I'd get some sort of, like,
you know, validation, but reallywasn't what I needed to be
(08:22):
doing, which was actuallygetting rid of all this stuff
inside of me. And so, yeah, Imean, I've got the freedom now,
you know, and I yearn, you know,I yearn for more freedom, you
know, nobody can have totalfreedom, or maybe some people
can have their's but I don't havetotal freedom, because obviously
I've got other commitments, butit's, it's, I also recognize
that, that freedom or thatdenial, was actually me, I can
(08:43):
blame whoever, I could blamecircumstances, I can blame, you
know, relationships, I canblame finances, I can blame
all of that. But actually, themain person I can blame is
myself.
It's really interesting that youcan state that So honestly,
because I think we're probablyall too good at holding
(09:05):
ourselves back. It's very easy,isn't it to have those voices of
doubt, nagging away? And Iwondered if, from your point of
view, if you think that's evenworse, perhaps when what we want
to do is in the arts or acreative environment, because
our culture prefers hardsubjects, if you like it
(09:29):
cultivates a sense of being riskadverse if you want to be
creative.
I think, I think it's a verydifficult thing because
obviously, with art and respect,visual art is a thing you maybe
you do in isolation, you know,maybe you need a space wherever
you go off and you do yourdrawing or your painting your
(09:51):
college wherever it is. Mesometimes it's just that I just
want to sit in an empty space. Ithink if you start going to
things like oh, I didn't knowyour local choir group you
theatre group, you know, it'sgot a slightly different focus,
in a way, it's a group activity,you know, it's, whereas maybe
doing visual arts can be seenas, as really for the self in a
(10:14):
different way. It's not like agroup social, you know, to me,
you're just, you're just byyourself. So I think that's a
challenge, I think it's, ifpeople don't come from that
background, especially thevisual arts, they're not
necessarily going to understandthe need the core need to be
(10:35):
able to do it. I think when youspoke about, in your introduction
about mental health, and all ofthat, I know that my mental
health severely suffered,because I was not allowed to be
my true self, I didn't enablemyself to be my true self, by
just demanding that I have spaceand time and resource to do
this, I should have just doneit. You know, and, and so I
(10:57):
think, you know, what you'resaying is, it's perfectly right,
you know, I think Covid woke upa lot of people to the value of
creative arts, you know, so manypeople turned to activities like
embroidery or you know, seeingonline or, you know, getting to
do writing, or they were doingmore creative activities,
(11:17):
because they realize that itactually it rewarded them, and
it served a purpose, and ithelped them mentally, you know,
we were struck in a time when wewere lonely, we were bored, and
we were frightened, actually, weneeded something to take our
mind off things and people toescape and all this other people
leaving their careers to go anddo woodworking in Somerset, I
don't know, whatever, butpeople understood that actually,
(11:40):
there was a really big value inthat crisis time. The pity is,
especially with this government,is that actually they're not
realizing that that that if weinputted more resources and more
infrastructure to enable morepeople to undertake the arts, we
could actually address some ofthe challenges to deal with
mental health and wellbeingwhich are prevalent across our
(12:02):
society, and even more so afterCOVID.
Yeah, and you've been, you'vebeen very clear, in other
interviews about how creativityis incredibly good for mental
health but that is essential.And I wondered how you might
want to unpack those criticalvalues when you when you talk
(12:25):
about it being essential. Thefact that this government has
stripped the arts out ofschools, is really denying it a
place of value. So I'minterested in in how you see the
critical values of creativity.
Yeah, I mean, you're totallyright the arts is seen as a nice
(12:47):
to have, rather than a musthave. And, you know, it's
obviously it's good for mentalhealth, from a cultural point of
view, you know, it's it'sincredibly important, the value
of the creative sector to theeconomy is, you know, huge and,
but it's now it's going to be donein spite of the, of the cuts,
rather than being supportedthrough, you know, policy or,
(13:12):
you know, resource being beingbeing used in that way just
shows that there is little valuethat comes at that level, that
government level, and thatactually starts to influence
people's thinking. Andespecially when there is huge
budget cuts, or going acrossdifferent sectors, that may be
the one that will go, becauseyou know, it's a nice to have,
(13:35):
it's not seen as essential, andthere are higher needs on the
agenda. And I think that moreneeds to be done, especially if
we talk about inclusivity. And,you know, different audiences. I
don't feel that it's positive asa nation that the arts and
across this, across all the arts,across the whole of the sector's
(13:56):
is seen as something that lovelykids have, often an afternoon when
they you know, it's been paidfor as an after school activity,
because then only a certaindemographic will be able to take
advantage of that. And then whatdoes it say about our nation
that arts is almost exclusive tothe privilege, whereas actually
it needs to be even more so forthe people that maybe don't have
(14:18):
that resource, who would benefitbeyond the activity itself, but
would also benefit from apersonal well being, you know,
mental health point of view, weshould make it as an essential.
We know what the benefits are.We saw them in Covid. If it was
so clear, then the why why arewe not continuing it?
(14:40):
And your work founding anddirecting Accumulate must just
be almost a constant testimonyto that point of view. For the
listeners point of view, maybeyou could just share some
context on what it is youdeliver at the Art School for
the Homeless but I'm reallyinterested to hear what kind of
(15:01):
transformations you witness?
Yeah, I mean, I mean, Accumulateis the Art School for the
Homeless. So we run creativeworkshops and activities
throughout the year, like interms, and it's about using
creativity as a tool forempowerment of people who may be
would benefit from that? Yeah,and so it's like skills,
(15:23):
confidence, wellbeing, community is really, really
huge. And that's all deliveredthrough these workshops. And the
workshops are delivered bypeople from industry or
professional tutors. You know,it's it's a really high level of
expertise. And we also runscholarships for people who
(15:44):
apply to go on to accesscourses. So so far, we've run,
we've got, we've delivered 24scholarships, and 12 of those
people have gone on to degrees.So when you talk about how does
it all change, once a person ison to a degree, like, you can
just basically, you can strikebeing homeless off the
list, because they're able toget a loan, and they're able to
(16:08):
therefore move out of thehostel and into their own
accommodation, they are astudent, they're at university
with their peers, they're on acreative journey, their future
looks really, really different.The people around them will be
their support bubble, ratherthan maybe people who are living
in a hostel and maybe alsosuffering from other maybe
complex needs or situations. So,you know, you've broken the
(16:29):
cycle of homelessness,definitely for those 12 people,
if not more, so you're askingabout, you know, the
transformation. First of all,you know, we feed back and
evaluate all the accumulateworkshops, obviously, you've got
huge success stories. But Iremember on one feedback form,
we say, you know, what, whatchanges, have you noticed,
(16:50):
through attending Accumulateand obviously, you want
to see, I've made loads offriends, my confidence has
increased, I can see a futurefor myself, there's all these
sorts of stuff, and one personwrote, getting out of bed. And
that, for me, is as huge as theother person who has won a
scholarship and gone on touniversity, because you can't
(17:11):
start to make those stepstowards improving your future,
unless you take those smallsteps, which might might mean
just getting out of bed in themorning, and that's great. So,
you know, so obviously, we'vegot transformations like that,
and people can can witness thoseor, you know, can identify
those. But we've also had reallysignificant, you know, changes
(17:35):
that we can identify when peoplereport back, you know, we've we
had one person called Mitchellwho had been in and out of
prison seven times in the yearprevious to Accumulate, he was
shoplifting, he was on heroin,and he was drinking, and he was,
(17:57):
you know, homeless, etc. And hecame to accumulate, he started
to work with us on somethingcalled the Book of Homelessness
throughout that year, he startedto reduce his dependencies and he
won a scholarship, went toRavensbourne on the one year
access course, in that year, hecame off completely off drugs,
(18:18):
even off meth and drink. And hestarted to get paid work for his
creativity, you know, started to deliver some workshops with us,
for you know, the Baarbican ontheir community scheme and now
he's about to enter thesecond year of his degree from
his access course, accepted ontoan illustration degree. And now
(18:38):
he's, you know, he's, he'sthere, and I'm so proud of him,
but also for being open aboutit. But you know, to witness
that is like huge, and to thinkthat, you know, Accumulate
played some part in that isincredibly fulfilling for me, as
well as testimony to actuallywhat goes into a weekly
(18:58):
workshop, you know, with anycreative, engaging creative area
will actually can do for thatindividual.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's anenormously powerful example. And
I also think it highlights thedifferent experiences and
(19:19):
relationships we all have withcourage because we tend to
associate courage with heroics,you know, life saving heroics.
But I'm interested in whether weshould recognize courage in more
ways. And in terms of personaldevelopment, that example of
just getting out of bed couldactually be quite a courageous
(19:40):
act for someone who's feelingdepressed. For someone who may
have always been in thehomelessness system, you know,
with no obvious support, no waysof building confidence and
resilience. And I wondered ifyou might agree with that view.
And in terms of Courage can helpcreate a sense of self respect.
(20:04):
And that that is part of ourwellbeing.
I mean, I think you'reabsolutely right. I mean, you
know, it is brave, and it'scourageous to say, I'm going to
try and improve in some way. Imean, I now talk about this, for
a long time, I didn't talk aboutit, but about 2010, 2011 I had a
(20:26):
bit of a sort of a breakdownsort of thing, I sort of drove
to work one day, and I justcouldn't even get out my car,
and I drove home. And I spent ayear on the sofa really sort of
watching Thelma and Louiseendlessly or, you know, another
one was Erin Brockovich, Ilike that one as well, right
and I just used to watch themover and over again anyway. But
(20:48):
in that year, what I realizedwas, even though it was
incredibly tough, what Irealized was, and what I kept
telling myself was, I'm gonna beokay, I'm gonna be okay,
because I've done, I've been there, I've done some great
stuff in my life, and I'm gonnabe able to get back to it, it's
not the right time to do it, youknow, I knew I needed to take a
(21:10):
year out, but I'm going to bethere, I'm gonna get there. Now,
if you have had no positiveexperiences in your life, or
very little positive experiencesin your life, and you're in an
environment where everybodyaround you is suffering in
different ways, the notion thatyou're going to have that
courage to say, You know what,I'm going to break away from
(21:32):
this, like, where are you goingto get that from? You, where are
you going to find it, it's goingto take a very special, very,
very unique person to say,actually, I'm going to be able
to get away from this. So youknow, with Accumulate, what we
do is we give them those tools,you even just come into a
workshop, I don't care ifsomebody comes to a workshop,
(21:54):
and literally, we have hadpeople, and they literally just
sit there, I don't care, right,because actually to get into
that workshop is like huge,right? So I have somebody who
came to us in lockdown, shewanted the art kits that were
sent out in the post and wealso do these zoom workshops,
and she didn't want to attendthe Zoom workshops, it's just
(22:16):
really like too much for her,you know, she just couldn't do
it, you know, but when wesend out the art packs we said,
don't forget to click onto theZoom workshop on such a such a
day, whatever and eventually,she did start to come in the
beginning, it would just be hername, she wouldn't speak. And
then after a while, you know,that was that was a big barrier
(22:38):
for her, then after a while shewas in the workshop, she would
speak but you still couldn't seeher. And then she got to the
stage where she'd open up hercamera. And now she regularly
attends our workshops. Now thatjourney is like huge, huge,
right? So she definitelydeserves an award for courage.
(23:01):
In fact, they all do. But as Isaid, you know, just leaving
that hostile environment, comingto an Accumulate workshop, you
know, getting on that bus orthat train, or wherever it is,
that's probably like that veryfirst step. It's a bit like, I
don't know, going to exercise,when actually my exercise this
morning, I mean, I made everyexcuse under the sun why I
(23:22):
don't need to do exercise,but I did it. And in the end, I
feel really great, right? I'mgonna have a great huge lunch as
a reward. But that's the samefor other people, you know,
you're able to deny yourself theopportunity of doing it. And
you'll make every excuse not to,and then you know, if once you
(23:43):
start to do it, you're gonnafeel a lot better. Now you've
got the dog yapping in thebackground.
This is part of 21st centuryliving.
But what you're talking about isreally important, you know that
we are talking about acts ofbravery. But we don't really
recognize our own acts ofbravery. Like you were just
(24:05):
describing, coming along, justsitting there to eventually
turning the camera on toeventually come in regularly are
huge acts of bravery. But we'renot really encouraged to
understand that. And I don'tmean so we go around trumpet
blowing, but to at least affordourselves some self respect.
Yeah, it's about acknowledgingit. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I
(24:26):
don't think this individual willacknowledge that, you know, but
I think she knows that she'scome a long way but she can't
sort of say, you know, welldone to herself, maybe at this
stage.
And it's interesting, becauseI've seen you've also, you know,
talked about the importance ofrecognizing these things and
(24:47):
that your work reverses thehierarchy of hiding from
others, complexities, emotionaldifficulties, pain, challenges
that you might be going throughand it's interesting because
you're recognizing that with thepeople you work with at
Accumulate, and of course,you've authentically lived that
(25:08):
yourself.
Um, obviously, you know, when Ifirst set up Accumulate,
which was just after I've, youknow, had that terrible year
off, and I, you know, set upAccumulate, and I think in that
year, I learned to be humble andhave humility, you know, I was
on a huge career path, whatever.And I just stopped, I just broke
(25:32):
it, you know, I burnt everybridge, you know, I just
said, I'm, I'm out of here. I mean, I think now it's very,
very different, I think nowwe're much more attuned to
people and be more open abouttheir mental health. But back
then it was, you know, it was astigma, it was shame, people
weren't really weren'tunderstanding of it, or
supportive of it, you know, youknow, people taking breaks
(25:54):
because of suffering fromanxiety or stress. And if they
did, they were almost like, youknow, there was almost like,
this light around them says,okay, they're a bit off the
scale that I mean, and notrespecting mental illnesses, as
just as important as a physicalillness. So, you know, you talk
about my personal work now andwhat I say on my work, and I
(26:18):
think, it's when I started off,I was not making my work for
anybody else. But me, I made itpurely to sort of get rid of all
of that stuff that was inside ofme. And but what's actually
happened now, because it's beenshown publicly is people
(26:39):
connecting to me and telling mesimilar stories about how it
resonates with them, and forwhatever purpose or reason it
does. And, you know, sometimesit's fantastic that it has that
appeal or, you know, satisfies some sort of need, and sometimes
it's particularly harrowing,people are telling me very
difficult stories, you know, andI don't know, you know, some,
(27:00):
you know, it's hard in a way toknow how to respond. So, yeah, I
suppose you could say, I've gotthat courage now to sort of talk
about my emotions, what I, whatI feel how I see myself, you
know, in the context of where Iam now, in my life, I don't
think I could have made thatwork when I was 30. I think, you
(27:23):
know, I'm 60 now, I'm able tolook back, I've got nothing to
lose, I've got I don't care, youknow, I've achieved enough. I
know that my work has a reallybroad appeal, because it's very,
very honest of the pain and thecomplexities that we all
experience and maybe don'tshare. And I'm just saying, you
know, my work is my way ofsharing it. And, and I'm proud
(27:47):
of that, you know, I've beentotally honest, I'm not
portraying anything difficult,different than what I'm actually
going through and how I'm tryingto deal with life.
Yeah, it's really powerfulexample of how art can create
this connection and dialogue andconversation. So the words that
you use on your cups are sohonest. For example, I read the
(28:13):
cup of longing actuallymade the buyer cry because this
related to the memory of yourfather, and it resonated with
the buyer, for example, and Ithought it was such a good
example of how art can reallyhelp create connections and help
(28:34):
expression even when it's anemotional outpouring.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, you'retotally right about what that
will mean, I feel that was aboutyou know, it said something
about daddy's girl and the otherside said, just one more hug.
And that's, you know, it's justall I wanted from my dad.
Obviously, it's not, he's notaround to give it and then
people you know, so the personwho bought I mean, she was just,
(28:57):
you know, very emotional aboutit. And you know, I've, I've
witnessed people be incrediblyemotional about seeing my work.
And I think it's just thebravery and the honesty is
everything they felt. And youknow, when people make that
purchase of my work, it's notbecause they want something to
fill the shelf on beside the TV,because it's not, they're not
(29:20):
easy work. But it's because theyfeel like compelled to own it,
because it's so resonated withmaybe their own personal
experiences. So I suppose, yeah,you know, I feel privileged, you
know, I've made work I've sold,you know, I'm very, very lucky.
I've sold a lot of it, and Idon't and I know that everyone
(29:41):
that's bought a piece of my workhas bought it for really intense
personal reasons. It's notbecause they like the color blue
or whatever it is, it's becauseit really meant something to
them. So I have no regrets aboutthe work that I've sold. You
know, you're always told to holdback a significant amount and I
haven't held back asignificant amount, I have held
(30:01):
back some but not maybe as muchas I should have done. But I am,
I am fine with that, because Iknow it's healed somebody else
as much as it heals me andmaking it. Yeah, it's
really interesting that usingthe word healing as well,
because it's like, you're veryhonest expressions on your cups
(30:24):
are really helping people relateand rationalize their own
emotions. And when I think backto your point of burnout, if you
like when you mentioned, youknow, how exhausted you were,
do you look back at it withan additional perspective now in
terms of burnout? Because therewas that lack of expression,
(30:49):
that lack of creativeexpression, or that denial of
something else? Is that whatputs the flame out as well?
I mean, you know, I valuedmyself in how powerful I was in
the workplace. I mean, that waswhere I put myself, you know,
that's what you're taught to do,you got to climb the ladder, you
know, it's really good to beworking all the hours to be so
(31:10):
in demand, and so wanted, youknow, and it was just, it was
just displacing somethingwasn't, you know, fulfilling in
the same sort of way. Now, youknow, I mean, I literally broke
because I was overworked. I was,it was a ridiculous amount of
responsibility I had, there wasno support available, you know,
(31:32):
I can contextualize it all now,but I just, I just couldn't
carry on I had, you know, ahorrific boss, who was, you
know, made, you know, enormousdemands on my time, and, and all
my personal time as well, youknow, and I had to do,
because otherwise,what does it say about me how
(31:52):
committed I was to work orwhatever? You know, it's funny,
you ask that question, becausenow I look back and I, and I'm
actually grateful for it.Because I look at my life now.
And what I've, what I've got,and you know, the work I've done
with Accumulate, and howsignificant that's been how
fulfilling and rewarding on apersonal level is to me, but
(32:14):
also how much it's helped tochange people's lives, you know,
and really enabled them toprogress. I mean, that's the
biggest blessing to know thatI've done that, you know, and I
can actually talk about thoseindividuals when you're at
management level. And I was atmanagement level in higher
education, you don't know thestudents, I mean, they're just
(32:34):
like cheese sandwiches. Yeah. Imean, they're like, fodder, and
you've just got to be recruitingand, you know, or whatever, you
know, you don't know them, asindividuals don't know, their
stories. With Accumulate I know,everybody, you know, and I don't
ask about their stories unlessthey want to tell it to me, but I
know them personally, as ifthey're, you know, my, my
personal friends, you know,because we're working together
(32:55):
as part of a community, they'rein this Accumulate community
with me. So I think, you know, Ifeel privileged, I feel, I also
laugh, I just say, if I hadn'tgone through that awful year, I
wouldn't be doing my art, Idon't think I would, I would
have taken a lot longer for meto get there. I wouldn't have
the freedom I've got now. And Ijust feel bizarrely grateful for
(33:18):
it. What I went through there
taught me so much about myself.And what was important to me and
what my own purpose was, and itcertainly was a you know, being
this hotshot, because actually,it was baseless, you know,
they're only you're only worthas much as you can do for that
(33:38):
employer. And actually, my worthwas far greater than that. And
now I recognize that.
Yeah, and I think gratefulnessis actually a really important
quality to mental health andwellbeing in terms of your
having the time to be gratefulif you see what I mean, because
(34:00):
you know, those hotshot careersover demanding jobs are
basically a constant strivingahead and you're just kind of
missing out your whole lifebecause you're on to the next
thing, and the next thing soexperiencing gratefulness
is probably quite a powerfulthing for you to actually just
stop and realize you can feelgrateful.
(34:23):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it washorrific. You know, I won't deny
that. It was a horrific year. Itwas very, very, very hard for me
personally. But I'm, you know, Idon't think I could have carried
on, well, I certainlycouldn't have carried on and you
know, I'm grateful. My life thatI have now, sometimes I walk
(34:43):
down the street and a littlesmile appears on my face, but
you know what, you did it yougot their, you know, you got
what you wanted, you know whatyou set out to be when you first
started and I wanted to be thisartist of whatever it is. It
didn't happen and I've had greatyou know, a good career but
always at the at the nub of itwas something which was
(35:05):
unfulfilled and frustrated andyou know, this
anger. And actually now Ibizarrely you know, it's
not like Nirvana, but I don'thave it. And so I do not have
that now, I am happier inmyself, I'm much more fulfilled.
I feel good about myself. Andthat's a great place to be who
(35:25):
wouldn't? You know? That's,that's a great achievement, you
know, I've got it now. I'm 60.Goodness knows how long it's
gonna last for but however long,it's gonna last I'm going to
grab it with both hands.
And would you say that curiosityis a property of your creativity
that has a healthy role to play?So for example, when you became
(35:47):
an artist, when you got yourhands back on clay, for example,
is it because there's a degreeof openness, you can
investigate? You can work withdifferent mediums and you can
exercise curiosity, would yousay that it's part of a
healthier approach for your ownmental health?
(36:10):
Yeah, I think it enables me, Imean, I only do ceramics, okay,
I don't, you know, I don't workwith anything else, I mean, I was
very aware that I was using mycreativity in my career, you
know, creative thinking andproblem solving, and all those
assets, but actuallymaking work, it's only now I'm
really making work, I thinkwhat's what's great about being
(36:31):
able to say that I am an artistnow is it validates the need for
me, you know, to go toexhibitions to go to galleries,
it's not like a pastime, it'snot something I would do, and
I'd walk away from it, I do itand I reflect, and I think, and
I use my experience, you know,to enhance what I'm doing my
learning capacity has increased.And so I think the aspect of
(36:55):
curiosity is about being readyto absorb new types of
knowledge, because it has apurpose, because it gives me
another stepping stone, Isuppose, in how I make work, or
how I see work or, you know, theinfluences you have, and I'm
(37:16):
constantly looking at, you know,I'm really particularly
interested in sort of AboriginalAustralian painting, you know,
all the mark making stuff likethat, you know, and it's joyful
to be able to look at it, and Idon't like go and take photos of
it and copy it, but it'sobviously getting into my head
patterns, decoration mark makingsymbols. And that's often you
(37:38):
know, used alongside the wordsthat I'm writing in huge letters
on my work, you know, there's avery, very decorative element,
which is part of that, and, andit's all about that, I suppose
that bringing together of, ofwhat's blatantly obvious, but
also that sort of embellishmentthat takes place elsewhere. And
(38:00):
that's, you know, thoseembellishment marks on what I'm
seeing around me the whole time.
I know, time is tight. So I'minterested to talk about your
examples, you've witnessed oftransformation, at Accumulate your
own experience of transformationand becoming an artist. And
(38:25):
we've talked about, obviously,the mental health impact. The
serious question poses Can artsave us? How would you answer
that question in terms of whatyou've experienced?
Well, obviously, it's got aresounding yes. I don't think
(38:46):
many people would come on yourpodcast and go No. But yeah, you
know, it has, it's totally savedme, without a doubt, if I
hadn't, I mean, you know,Accumulate is super fulfilling,
you know, it takes up, you know,a significant amount of my time.
(39:07):
But I still think if I stillyou know, if I had not
come back to the studioand started making there would
still be this slight edge, niggle this slight scratching
that would be inside of me. Youknow, because I was, you know,
Accumulate is a creativeproduct, the way I think about
it, but what we do, how it'smanaged, how its planned
(39:29):
forward, all of that is, youknow, uses, draws very
heavily on my creative thinking,but it doesn't, it doesn't make
me a creative practitioner. Youdon't I mean, I'm using my
creativity and I'm, I'm shiftingit into a different way. But
actually, the actual makingprocess is what actually I find
(39:49):
that most deeply fulfilling andrewarding inside of me. So yeah,
art definitely saved me withouta doubt, right. So that's number
one. And number two is art soyou know, when I look at
Accumulate and I look at thepeople that have come through
it. And I look at people likeNicole and Crystal and Lisa, and
Mitchell and you know, otherpeople, you know, I, I look at
them and I say, it's given themso much it's given them the,
(40:16):
the, you know, there's oneperson, you know that I'm not
gonna mention names, but youknow, she came to the first
workshop with us in 2020ndashe literally sat there, and she
had her sleeves over her hands,you know, she was crawling
inside of her jumper, becauseshe was so uncomfortable with
herself, and everything. And shecouldn't quite, you know, it
(40:39):
took a long time. And when shespoke, this was in September
2020, she spoke she said, it wasa first, you know, a time that
she'd been with other people.Since, you know, the six months
of Covid. Since March she'dbeen in her room, you know, it
was a huge challenge for her.She went on she's, you know, a
scholarship winner. She's beengiven places at both Central
(41:01):
Saint Martins and at Chelsea tostudy Fine Art degree level. I
mean, honestly, that isbrilliant, just absolutely
brilliant. So Can art save us?Yes, it can. And it can do so
much more, because the peoplethat have gone through this
process will be contributing indifferent ways to society, but
(41:22):
also there'll be, they will feelwhole and feel good. And Bill
able and the drain, if you wantto talk about that on, you know,
on the mental health service onmedication, you know, is
reduced, you know, the misuse ofsubstances is reduced. The
feeling that people can actuallydo more with their lives and
(41:45):
feel good about themselves isincreased. And so yeah, art
definitely saves us and I justwish there was more of it.
Because well, this nationcertainly needs it now.
I couldn't agree more. And it'sfantastic having your
perspective on this andwouldn't it be great if some of
(42:06):
your cups could become hugepublic installations, and maybe
remind us all how important itis to fill our own cups with the
things that make us well andbelong and connect?
Happier? I mean, you know, it's,it's definitely I don't, you
know, I don't seek that glory. Idon't, you know, it's not really
(42:28):
what I'm about. But if I feelthat, that honesty and that
bravery, and that openness totalk about the difficulties that
I personally challenged myself,you know, I've been challenged
by personal difficulties, youknow, just dealing with stuff
that honesty and that bravery,that I feel I'm able to do now,
(42:48):
because of what I've gonethrough, if that any way helps
somebody else to thinkdifferently, or to think then
just not alone, you know, Ithink that's fine by me, one
person is fine by me, you know,and so it's, it's great to have
what I've got now, I realized,you know, it's taken a lifetime,
(43:08):
whatever. But I've been very,very privileged and lucky to
have it. I don't take itlightly. But I struggled to get
here. I'm here now, and I ain'tgiving it up.
Do not give it up and gigantic congratulations for
being brave enough andcourageous enough to get there,
you know, to face thosechallenges to get there and to
(43:29):
be kind enough to share whatthat means and what that looks
like.
Yeah. It's funny what you learnat the end of the sorry to
interrupt. It's funny, you know,what you learned through doing
that, you know, thank youfor saying that because as much
as it's just like, Accumulate asmuch as it's for other people at
the core, it's for me. And thankyou.
You're more thanwelcome. Thank you for sharing
(43:52):
it. I'm hoping that you know,these perspectives will really
be inspiring for people thatlisten, you know, about what
change can take, to recognizetheir own acts of courage to
recognize we're often all veryvulnerable often. But your
stories and examples are reallyinspiring. So thank you very,
(44:14):
very much for making the timetoday.
It was an absolute pleasure.Thank you. I'm sorry, I'm gonna
rush it's like one of thoselike, you know, back to back
zoom call meeting day to day butthank you. Good luck. Bye.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflict. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? And my
(00:51):
guest today is Marice Cumber, oneof the UK's most interesting
ceramic artists. She presentsher own emotions, fears and
vulnerabilities in her work, andeven cowardice shows up probably
kicking and screaming. Her largeoversized ceramic cups hold and
display her emotions in awonderful Tim Burton esque way.
(01:11):
I wouldn't be surprised to seeher work dress some of his
film sets sharing edgy qualitiesof German expressionism showing
feelings, embracing thealternative but keeping a
healthy focus on individualstrength. These cups would
dress a far more interestingAlice in Wonderland Tea Party
but like hotcakes, they sell outfast. As importantly, Marice is
(01:35):
also the founder and director ofAccumulate the Art School for
the Homeless. And she has beencommitted to creativity as a way
of empowering people who arehomeless to move forward
positively in their lives, youcould say, helping to refill
their own cups with possibilityand opportunity. Hello, Marice,
(01:57):
It's really great to have youhere today.
Hello, thank you, what a niceintroduction. Okay, now listen,
I always say never give yourkids unusual names right.
My name is Marice. I should havesaid that before. But just so
you know.
Bless you. Okay, so my guesttoday is Marice Cumber, thank
(02:18):
you. So Marice, let'sstart with a very important
statement you make on one ofyour cups, where you celebrate,
"I am an artist now." Is this ajourney of courage?
Yeah, I mean, the reason I meanI made that was because it's
(02:40):
about identity. And I think youhave a vision of what you might
want to be or who you are. Andthat vision is with you quite a
long time. And sometimes ithappens. And that's great. And
you fulfill it and sometimesit's hidden or suppressed, or
sometimes you just do somethingelse. And that's also really,
(03:00):
really fun. And I went back tomaking ceramics when I was 57.
And so at a much more matureage, I would say, and I'd
stopped working for, you know,stop making ceramics for you
know, good for like 25, 30 years,just because of life, really,
you know, otherresponsibilities. And I got,
(03:21):
what might you say is, like,spotted quite early on. And, you
know, that piece I made for anexhibition I had last September.
And last January was my firstpublic exhibition. So I, I, you
know, within a very small periodof time, I pivoted so to answer
your question yes, it was mesaying "I am an artist now" you
(03:42):
know, I'm not gonna beidentified, as you know, an
educator, you know, I had abusiness, I'm a parent, I'm a
wife, you know, I'm all thesesorts of things. But really what
I always wanted to be with artists, so it's like saying, I
am an artist now. And if youturn over on the other side, it
says "The rest was just asubstitute." Because it was
(04:03):
really saying about, you know,even though I've achieved you
know, some fantastic things, Ilook back, you know, I have, you
know, achieved and had impact,but they were all in a way,
substituting what I reallywanted to do, some displacing
of what I should have beendoing was something else.
(04:25):
Because I was either toocowardly, or I didn't have the
time or I didn't respect myselfenough, or I didn't value myself
enough. I didn't think I wasgood enough. But now here I
am now just 60 you know, anartist and selling my work and
like, it's like incredible to beable to say that.
It's really exciting. And Ireally wonder if there was
(04:46):
almost a moment, you know, whenyou describe having to wrestle
with things like cowardice orthe fear of making that big
change, you know, was there amoment where you had to really
confront that What did that feellike when However frightened you
may have been, you finallydecided I'm doing this anyway.
(05:06):
That's interesting. So youreferred earlier about
Accumulate, Accumulate isthe Art school for the homeless and
we have some really fantasticsubmissions. And one of these
exhibitions was hosted at TheGuardian, which is like,
fantastic, right? And everybody's there, and it's all
buzzing, happening. And a veryold friend came up to me and
whispered in my ear, and hegoes, this is all very well
(05:28):
Marice, but when are you gonnaget back to your ceramics? And
that was like a dagger to myheart, it was also like, well,
this is all nice, a busy show or whatever, you know, gives
you a status, maybe could lookat it like that, that
exhibition, but actually, at theheart, you're an artist, you're
just denying yourself, you'reavoiding it. And literally the
(05:49):
next day, you know, I justthought that's it. And I went and
sort of rented, you know, astudio space in a sort of, like
community led studio, very softand early steps. And, you know,
went and rented it, you know, Ithink you're allowed to have
like, 15 hours a week orsomething like that. And, you
know, the first day I go there,and you just smell the
(06:10):
environment, the clay, thekilns, you know, you look around
you, and I just thought, yeah,this is I'm just, I'm just
feeling good now. So, you know,so it was like, yeah, it was
that moment, I think. It waslike 2017, 2018.
So is this your sense of freedomis the smell of clay, your sense
(06:32):
of freedom? You've been veryclear about talking about
freedom and how it's differentfor everybody. And very positive
in that no one is stopping menow.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the onlyperson that stopped me doing
what I should have been doing,even though you have external
pressures and I thinkthis is very prevalent,
(06:53):
actually, for women. You know,no woman feels, you know,
women often feel under pressureto not do their creative
activity, or what actually givesthem that huge fulfillment,
because they've got to be inthis sort of Mother role, right?
No man gives up their painting,they're writing their
photography, because they've gotkids, that just doesn't happen.
(07:16):
No man, I know, hasgiven that up, right? And said,
Oh, no, I don't have timebecause I want to do so and
spend all this time my kids, butfor women, it really is a
challenge, it's a huge challengeto say, I'm shutting the door,
I'm having my own space, youknow, I need to do this, I need
to do this. And we denyourselves because of these
external pressures. And becauseof the external pressures that
(07:38):
need just gnaws at you. And youknow, it, it's like a, a
boiling, you know, pot inside,it gnaws at you, you don't feel
fulfilled, you're frustrated,you're angry or resentful. You
don't feel valued, you haven'treached what you needed to
reach, you know, that's insideyou for so long. And for me,
(07:58):
that was inside of me literallyfor like, 25, 26 years, you know,
I've made these extravagantbirthday cakes, I mean,
honestly, you should have seenthem. And, you know, I was
channeling my creativity intovery sort of substituted sort of
areas, you know, there's almost,but I'd get some sort of, like,
you know, validation, but reallywasn't what I needed to be
(08:22):
doing, which was actuallygetting rid of all this stuff
inside of me. And so, yeah, Imean, I've got the freedom now,
you know, and I yearn, you know,I yearn for more freedom, you
know, nobody can have totalfreedom, or maybe some people
can have their's but I don't havetotal freedom, because obviously
I've got other commitments, butit's, it's, I also recognize
that, that freedom or thatdenial, was actually me, I can
(08:43):
blame whoever, I could blamecircumstances, I can blame, you
know, relationships, I canblame finances, I can blame
all of that. But actually, themain person I can blame is
myself.
It's really interesting that youcan state that So honestly,
because I think we're probablyall too good at holding
(09:05):
ourselves back. It's very easy,isn't it to have those voices of
doubt, nagging away? And Iwondered if, from your point of
view, if you think that's evenworse, perhaps when what we want
to do is in the arts or acreative environment, because
our culture prefers hardsubjects, if you like it
(09:29):
cultivates a sense of being riskadverse if you want to be
creative.
I think, I think it's a verydifficult thing because
obviously, with art and respect,visual art is a thing you maybe
you do in isolation, you know,maybe you need a space wherever
you go off and you do yourdrawing or your painting your
(09:51):
college wherever it is. Mesometimes it's just that I just
want to sit in an empty space. Ithink if you start going to
things like oh, I didn't knowyour local choir group you
theatre group, you know, it'sgot a slightly different focus,
in a way, it's a group activity,you know, it's, whereas maybe
doing visual arts can be seenas, as really for the self in a
(10:14):
different way. It's not like agroup social, you know, to me,
you're just, you're just byyourself. So I think that's a
challenge, I think it's, ifpeople don't come from that
background, especially thevisual arts, they're not
necessarily going to understandthe need the core need to be
(10:35):
able to do it. I think when youspoke about, in your introduction
about mental health, and all ofthat, I know that my mental
health severely suffered,because I was not allowed to be
my true self, I didn't enablemyself to be my true self, by
just demanding that I have spaceand time and resource to do
this, I should have just doneit. You know, and, and so I
(10:57):
think, you know, what you'resaying is, it's perfectly right,
you know, I think Covid woke upa lot of people to the value of
creative arts, you know, so manypeople turned to activities like
embroidery or you know, seeingonline or, you know, getting to
do writing, or they were doingmore creative activities,
(11:17):
because they realize that itactually it rewarded them, and
it served a purpose, and ithelped them mentally, you know,
we were struck in a time when wewere lonely, we were bored, and
we were frightened, actually, weneeded something to take our
mind off things and people toescape and all this other people
leaving their careers to go anddo woodworking in Somerset, I
don't know, whatever, butpeople understood that actually,
(11:40):
there was a really big value inthat crisis time. The pity is,
especially with this government,is that actually they're not
realizing that that that if weinputted more resources and more
infrastructure to enable morepeople to undertake the arts, we
could actually address some ofthe challenges to deal with
mental health and wellbeingwhich are prevalent across our
(12:02):
society, and even more so afterCOVID.
Yeah, and you've been, you'vebeen very clear, in other
interviews about how creativityis incredibly good for mental
health but that is essential.And I wondered how you might
want to unpack those criticalvalues when you when you talk
(12:25):
about it being essential. Thefact that this government has
stripped the arts out ofschools, is really denying it a
place of value. So I'minterested in in how you see the
critical values of creativity.
Yeah, I mean, you're totallyright the arts is seen as a nice
(12:47):
to have, rather than a musthave. And, you know, it's
obviously it's good for mentalhealth, from a cultural point of
view, you know, it's it'sincredibly important, the value
of the creative sector to theeconomy is, you know, huge and,
but it's now it's going to be donein spite of the, of the cuts,
rather than being supportedthrough, you know, policy or,
(13:12):
you know, resource being beingbeing used in that way just
shows that there is little valuethat comes at that level, that
government level, and thatactually starts to influence
people's thinking. Andespecially when there is huge
budget cuts, or going acrossdifferent sectors, that may be
the one that will go, becauseyou know, it's a nice to have,
(13:35):
it's not seen as essential, andthere are higher needs on the
agenda. And I think that moreneeds to be done, especially if
we talk about inclusivity. And,you know, different audiences. I
don't feel that it's positive asa nation that the arts and
across this, across all the arts,across the whole of the sector's
(13:56):
is seen as something that lovelykids have, often an afternoon when
they you know, it's been paidfor as an after school activity,
because then only a certaindemographic will be able to take
advantage of that. And then whatdoes it say about our nation
that arts is almost exclusive tothe privilege, whereas actually
it needs to be even more so forthe people that maybe don't have
(14:18):
that resource, who would benefitbeyond the activity itself, but
would also benefit from apersonal well being, you know,
mental health point of view, weshould make it as an essential.
We know what the benefits are.We saw them in Covid. If it was
so clear, then the why why arewe not continuing it?
(14:40):
And your work founding anddirecting Accumulate must just
be almost a constant testimonyto that point of view. For the
listeners point of view, maybeyou could just share some
context on what it is youdeliver at the Art School for
the Homeless but I'm reallyinterested to hear what kind of
(15:01):
transformations you witness?
Yeah, I mean, I mean, Accumulateis the Art School for the
Homeless. So we run creativeworkshops and activities
throughout the year, like interms, and it's about using
creativity as a tool forempowerment of people who may be
would benefit from that? Yeah,and so it's like skills,
(15:23):
confidence, wellbeing, community is really, really
huge. And that's all deliveredthrough these workshops. And the
workshops are delivered bypeople from industry or
professional tutors. You know,it's it's a really high level of
expertise. And we also runscholarships for people who
(15:44):
apply to go on to accesscourses. So so far, we've run,
we've got, we've delivered 24scholarships, and 12 of those
people have gone on to degrees.So when you talk about how does
it all change, once a person ison to a degree, like, you can
just basically, you can strikebeing homeless off the
list, because they're able toget a loan, and they're able to
(16:08):
therefore move out of thehostel and into their own
accommodation, they are astudent, they're at university
with their peers, they're on acreative journey, their future
looks really, really different.The people around them will be
their support bubble, ratherthan maybe people who are living
in a hostel and maybe alsosuffering from other maybe
complex needs or situations. So,you know, you've broken the
(16:29):
cycle of homelessness,definitely for those 12 people,
if not more, so you're askingabout, you know, the
transformation. First of all,you know, we feed back and
evaluate all the accumulateworkshops, obviously, you've got
huge success stories. But Iremember on one feedback form,
we say, you know, what, whatchanges, have you noticed,
(16:50):
through attending Accumulateand obviously, you want
to see, I've made loads offriends, my confidence has
increased, I can see a futurefor myself, there's all these
sorts of stuff, and one personwrote, getting out of bed. And
that, for me, is as huge as theother person who has won a
scholarship and gone on touniversity, because you can't
(17:11):
start to make those stepstowards improving your future,
unless you take those smallsteps, which might might mean
just getting out of bed in themorning, and that's great. So,
you know, so obviously, we'vegot transformations like that,
and people can can witness thoseor, you know, can identify
those. But we've also had reallysignificant, you know, changes
(17:35):
that we can identify when peoplereport back, you know, we've we
had one person called Mitchellwho had been in and out of
prison seven times in the yearprevious to Accumulate, he was
shoplifting, he was on heroin,and he was drinking, and he was,
(17:57):
you know, homeless, etc. And hecame to accumulate, he started
to work with us on somethingcalled the Book of Homelessness
throughout that year, he startedto reduce his dependencies and he
won a scholarship, went toRavensbourne on the one year
access course, in that year, hecame off completely off drugs,
(18:18):
even off meth and drink. And hestarted to get paid work for his
creativity, you know, started to deliver some workshops with us,
for you know, the Baarbican ontheir community scheme and now
he's about to enter thesecond year of his degree from
his access course, accepted ontoan illustration degree. And now
(18:38):
he's, you know, he's, he'sthere, and I'm so proud of him,
but also for being open aboutit. But you know, to witness
that is like huge, and to thinkthat, you know, Accumulate
played some part in that isincredibly fulfilling for me, as
well as testimony to actuallywhat goes into a weekly
(18:58):
workshop, you know, with anycreative, engaging creative area
will actually can do for thatindividual.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's anenormously powerful example. And
I also think it highlights thedifferent experiences and
(19:19):
relationships we all have withcourage because we tend to
associate courage with heroics,you know, life saving heroics.
But I'm interested in whether weshould recognize courage in more
ways. And in terms of personaldevelopment, that example of
just getting out of bed couldactually be quite a courageous
(19:40):
act for someone who's feelingdepressed. For someone who may
have always been in thehomelessness system, you know,
with no obvious support, no waysof building confidence and
resilience. And I wondered ifyou might agree with that view.
And in terms of Courage can helpcreate a sense of self respect.
(20:04):
And that that is part of ourwellbeing.
I mean, I think you'reabsolutely right. I mean, you
know, it is brave, and it'scourageous to say, I'm going to
try and improve in some way. Imean, I now talk about this, for
a long time, I didn't talk aboutit, but about 2010, 2011 I had a
(20:26):
bit of a sort of a breakdownsort of thing, I sort of drove
to work one day, and I justcouldn't even get out my car,
and I drove home. And I spent ayear on the sofa really sort of
watching Thelma and Louiseendlessly or, you know, another
one was Erin Brockovich, Ilike that one as well, right
and I just used to watch themover and over again anyway. But
(20:48):
in that year, what I realizedwas, even though it was
incredibly tough, what Irealized was, and what I kept
telling myself was, I'm gonna beokay, I'm gonna be okay,
because I've done, I've been there, I've done some great
stuff in my life, and I'm gonnabe able to get back to it, it's
not the right time to do it, youknow, I knew I needed to take a
(21:10):
year out, but I'm going to bethere, I'm gonna get there. Now,
if you have had no positiveexperiences in your life, or
very little positive experiencesin your life, and you're in an
environment where everybodyaround you is suffering in
different ways, the notion thatyou're going to have that
courage to say, You know what,I'm going to break away from
(21:32):
this, like, where are you goingto get that from? You, where are
you going to find it, it's goingto take a very special, very,
very unique person to say,actually, I'm going to be able
to get away from this. So youknow, with Accumulate, what we
do is we give them those tools,you even just come into a
workshop, I don't care ifsomebody comes to a workshop,
(21:54):
and literally, we have hadpeople, and they literally just
sit there, I don't care, right,because actually to get into
that workshop is like huge,right? So I have somebody who
came to us in lockdown, shewanted the art kits that were
sent out in the post and wealso do these zoom workshops,
and she didn't want to attendthe Zoom workshops, it's just
(22:16):
really like too much for her,you know, she just couldn't do
it, you know, but when wesend out the art packs we said,
don't forget to click onto theZoom workshop on such a such a
day, whatever and eventually,she did start to come in the
beginning, it would just be hername, she wouldn't speak. And
then after a while, you know,that was that was a big barrier
(22:38):
for her, then after a while shewas in the workshop, she would
speak but you still couldn't seeher. And then she got to the
stage where she'd open up hercamera. And now she regularly
attends our workshops. Now thatjourney is like huge, huge,
right? So she definitelydeserves an award for courage.
(23:01):
In fact, they all do. But as Isaid, you know, just leaving
that hostile environment, comingto an Accumulate workshop, you
know, getting on that bus orthat train, or wherever it is,
that's probably like that veryfirst step. It's a bit like, I
don't know, going to exercise,when actually my exercise this
morning, I mean, I made everyexcuse under the sun why I
(23:22):
don't need to do exercise,but I did it. And in the end, I
feel really great, right? I'mgonna have a great huge lunch as
a reward. But that's the samefor other people, you know,
you're able to deny yourself theopportunity of doing it. And
you'll make every excuse not to,and then you know, if once you
(23:43):
start to do it, you're gonnafeel a lot better. Now you've
got the dog yapping in thebackground.
This is part of 21st centuryliving.
But what you're talking about isreally important, you know that
we are talking about acts ofbravery. But we don't really
recognize our own acts ofbravery. Like you were just
(24:05):
describing, coming along, justsitting there to eventually
turning the camera on toeventually come in regularly are
huge acts of bravery. But we'renot really encouraged to
understand that. And I don'tmean so we go around trumpet
blowing, but to at least affordourselves some self respect.
Yeah, it's about acknowledgingit. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I
(24:26):
don't think this individual willacknowledge that, you know, but
I think she knows that she'scome a long way but she can't
sort of say, you know, welldone to herself, maybe at this
stage.
And it's interesting, becauseI've seen you've also, you know,
talked about the importance ofrecognizing these things and
(24:47):
that your work reverses thehierarchy of hiding from
others, complexities, emotionaldifficulties, pain, challenges
that you might be going throughand it's interesting because
you're recognizing that with thepeople you work with at
Accumulate, and of course,you've authentically lived that
(25:08):
yourself.
Um, obviously, you know, when Ifirst set up Accumulate,
which was just after I've, youknow, had that terrible year
off, and I, you know, set upAccumulate, and I think in that
year, I learned to be humble andhave humility, you know, I was
on a huge career path, whatever.And I just stopped, I just broke
(25:32):
it, you know, I burnt everybridge, you know, I just
said, I'm, I'm out of here. I mean, I think now it's very,
very different, I think nowwe're much more attuned to
people and be more open abouttheir mental health. But back
then it was, you know, it was astigma, it was shame, people
weren't really weren'tunderstanding of it, or
supportive of it, you know, youknow, people taking breaks
(25:54):
because of suffering fromanxiety or stress. And if they
did, they were almost like, youknow, there was almost like,
this light around them says,okay, they're a bit off the
scale that I mean, and notrespecting mental illnesses, as
just as important as a physicalillness. So, you know, you talk
about my personal work now andwhat I say on my work, and I
(26:18):
think, it's when I started off,I was not making my work for
anybody else. But me, I made itpurely to sort of get rid of all
of that stuff that was inside ofme. And but what's actually
happened now, because it's beenshown publicly is people
(26:39):
connecting to me and telling mesimilar stories about how it
resonates with them, and forwhatever purpose or reason it
does. And, you know, sometimesit's fantastic that it has that
appeal or, you know, satisfies some sort of need, and sometimes
it's particularly harrowing,people are telling me very
difficult stories, you know, andI don't know, you know, some,
(27:00):
you know, it's hard in a way toknow how to respond. So, yeah, I
suppose you could say, I've gotthat courage now to sort of talk
about my emotions, what I, whatI feel how I see myself, you
know, in the context of where Iam now, in my life, I don't
think I could have made thatwork when I was 30. I think, you
(27:23):
know, I'm 60 now, I'm able tolook back, I've got nothing to
lose, I've got I don't care, youknow, I've achieved enough. I
know that my work has a reallybroad appeal, because it's very,
very honest of the pain and thecomplexities that we all
experience and maybe don'tshare. And I'm just saying, you
know, my work is my way ofsharing it. And, and I'm proud
(27:47):
of that, you know, I've beentotally honest, I'm not
portraying anything difficult,different than what I'm actually
going through and how I'm tryingto deal with life.
Yeah, it's really powerfulexample of how art can create
this connection and dialogue andconversation. So the words that
you use on your cups are sohonest. For example, I read the
(28:13):
cup of longing actuallymade the buyer cry because this
related to the memory of yourfather, and it resonated with
the buyer, for example, and Ithought it was such a good
example of how art can reallyhelp create connections and help
(28:34):
expression even when it's anemotional outpouring.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, you'retotally right about what that
will mean, I feel that was aboutyou know, it said something
about daddy's girl and the otherside said, just one more hug.
And that's, you know, it's justall I wanted from my dad.
Obviously, it's not, he's notaround to give it and then
people you know, so the personwho bought I mean, she was just,
(28:57):
you know, very emotional aboutit. And you know, I've, I've
witnessed people be incrediblyemotional about seeing my work.
And I think it's just thebravery and the honesty is
everything they felt. And youknow, when people make that
purchase of my work, it's notbecause they want something to
fill the shelf on beside the TV,because it's not, they're not
(29:20):
easy work. But it's because theyfeel like compelled to own it,
because it's so resonated withmaybe their own personal
experiences. So I suppose, yeah,you know, I feel privileged, you
know, I've made work I've sold,you know, I'm very, very lucky.
I've sold a lot of it, and Idon't and I know that everyone
(29:41):
that's bought a piece of my workhas bought it for really intense
personal reasons. It's notbecause they like the color blue
or whatever it is, it's becauseit really meant something to
them. So I have no regrets aboutthe work that I've sold. You
know, you're always told to holdback a significant amount and I
haven't held back asignificant amount, I have held
(30:01):
back some but not maybe as muchas I should have done. But I am,
I am fine with that, because Iknow it's healed somebody else
as much as it heals me andmaking it. Yeah, it's
really interesting that usingthe word healing as well,
because it's like, you're veryhonest expressions on your cups
(30:24):
are really helping people relateand rationalize their own
emotions. And when I think backto your point of burnout, if you
like when you mentioned, youknow, how exhausted you were,
do you look back at it withan additional perspective now in
terms of burnout? Because therewas that lack of expression,
(30:49):
that lack of creativeexpression, or that denial of
something else? Is that whatputs the flame out as well?
I mean, you know, I valuedmyself in how powerful I was in
the workplace. I mean, that waswhere I put myself, you know,
that's what you're taught to do,you got to climb the ladder, you
know, it's really good to beworking all the hours to be so
(31:10):
in demand, and so wanted, youknow, and it was just, it was
just displacing somethingwasn't, you know, fulfilling in
the same sort of way. Now, youknow, I mean, I literally broke
because I was overworked. I was,it was a ridiculous amount of
responsibility I had, there wasno support available, you know,
(31:32):
I can contextualize it all now,but I just, I just couldn't
carry on I had, you know, ahorrific boss, who was, you
know, made, you know, enormousdemands on my time, and, and all
my personal time as well, youknow, and I had to do,
because otherwise,what does it say about me how
(31:52):
committed I was to work orwhatever? You know, it's funny,
you ask that question, becausenow I look back and I, and I'm
actually grateful for it.Because I look at my life now.
And what I've, what I've got,and you know, the work I've done
with Accumulate, and howsignificant that's been how
fulfilling and rewarding on apersonal level is to me, but
(32:14):
also how much it's helped tochange people's lives, you know,
and really enabled them toprogress. I mean, that's the
biggest blessing to know thatI've done that, you know, and I
can actually talk about thoseindividuals when you're at
management level. And I was atmanagement level in higher
education, you don't know thestudents, I mean, they're just
(32:34):
like cheese sandwiches. Yeah. Imean, they're like, fodder, and
you've just got to be recruitingand, you know, or whatever, you
know, you don't know them, asindividuals don't know, their
stories. With Accumulate I know,everybody, you know, and I don't
ask about their stories unlessthey want to tell it to me, but I
know them personally, as ifthey're, you know, my, my
personal friends, you know,because we're working together
(32:55):
as part of a community, they'rein this Accumulate community
with me. So I think, you know, Ifeel privileged, I feel, I also
laugh, I just say, if I hadn'tgone through that awful year, I
wouldn't be doing my art, Idon't think I would, I would
have taken a lot longer for meto get there. I wouldn't have
the freedom I've got now. And Ijust feel bizarrely grateful for
(33:18):
it. What I went through there
taught me so much about myself.And what was important to me and
what my own purpose was, and itcertainly was a you know, being
this hotshot, because actually,it was baseless, you know,
they're only you're only worthas much as you can do for that
(33:38):
employer. And actually, my worthwas far greater than that. And
now I recognize that.
Yeah, and I think gratefulnessis actually a really important
quality to mental health andwellbeing in terms of your
having the time to be gratefulif you see what I mean, because
(34:00):
you know, those hotshot careersover demanding jobs are
basically a constant strivingahead and you're just kind of
missing out your whole lifebecause you're on to the next
thing, and the next thing soexperiencing gratefulness
is probably quite a powerfulthing for you to actually just
stop and realize you can feelgrateful.
(34:23):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it washorrific. You know, I won't deny
that. It was a horrific year. Itwas very, very, very hard for me
personally. But I'm, you know, Idon't think I could have carried
on, well, I certainlycouldn't have carried on and you
know, I'm grateful. My life thatI have now, sometimes I walk
(34:43):
down the street and a littlesmile appears on my face, but
you know what, you did it yougot their, you know, you got
what you wanted, you know whatyou set out to be when you first
started and I wanted to be thisartist of whatever it is. It
didn't happen and I've had greatyou know, a good career but
always at the at the nub of itwas something which was
(35:05):
unfulfilled and frustrated andyou know, this
anger. And actually now Ibizarrely you know, it's
not like Nirvana, but I don'thave it. And so I do not have
that now, I am happier inmyself, I'm much more fulfilled.
I feel good about myself. Andthat's a great place to be who
(35:25):
wouldn't? You know? That's,that's a great achievement, you
know, I've got it now. I'm 60.Goodness knows how long it's
gonna last for but however long,it's gonna last I'm going to
grab it with both hands.
And would you say that curiosityis a property of your creativity
that has a healthy role to play?So for example, when you became
(35:47):
an artist, when you got yourhands back on clay, for example,
is it because there's a degreeof openness, you can
investigate? You can work withdifferent mediums and you can
exercise curiosity, would yousay that it's part of a
healthier approach for your ownmental health?
(36:10):
Yeah, I think it enables me, Imean, I only do ceramics, okay,
I don't, you know, I don't workwith anything else, I mean, I was
very aware that I was using mycreativity in my career, you
know, creative thinking andproblem solving, and all those
assets, but actuallymaking work, it's only now I'm
really making work, I thinkwhat's what's great about being
(36:31):
able to say that I am an artistnow is it validates the need for
me, you know, to go toexhibitions to go to galleries,
it's not like a pastime, it'snot something I would do, and
I'd walk away from it, I do itand I reflect, and I think, and
I use my experience, you know,to enhance what I'm doing my
learning capacity has increased.And so I think the aspect of
(36:55):
curiosity is about being readyto absorb new types of
knowledge, because it has apurpose, because it gives me
another stepping stone, Isuppose, in how I make work, or
how I see work or, you know, theinfluences you have, and I'm
(37:16):
constantly looking at, you know,I'm really particularly
interested in sort of AboriginalAustralian painting, you know,
all the mark making stuff likethat, you know, and it's joyful
to be able to look at it, and Idon't like go and take photos of
it and copy it, but it'sobviously getting into my head
patterns, decoration mark makingsymbols. And that's often you
(37:38):
know, used alongside the wordsthat I'm writing in huge letters
on my work, you know, there's avery, very decorative element,
which is part of that, and, andit's all about that, I suppose
that bringing together of, ofwhat's blatantly obvious, but
also that sort of embellishmentthat takes place elsewhere. And
(38:00):
that's, you know, thoseembellishment marks on what I'm
seeing around me the whole time.
I know, time is tight. So I'minterested to talk about your
examples, you've witnessed oftransformation, at Accumulate your
own experience of transformationand becoming an artist. And
(38:25):
we've talked about, obviously,the mental health impact. The
serious question poses Can artsave us? How would you answer
that question in terms of whatyou've experienced?
Well, obviously, it's got aresounding yes. I don't think
(38:46):
many people would come on yourpodcast and go No. But yeah, you
know, it has, it's totally savedme, without a doubt, if I
hadn't, I mean, you know,Accumulate is super fulfilling,
you know, it takes up, you know,a significant amount of my time.
(39:07):
But I still think if I stillyou know, if I had not
come back to the studioand started making there would
still be this slight edge, niggle this slight scratching
that would be inside of me. Youknow, because I was, you know,
Accumulate is a creativeproduct, the way I think about
it, but what we do, how it'smanaged, how its planned
(39:29):
forward, all of that is, youknow, uses, draws very
heavily on my creative thinking,but it doesn't, it doesn't make
me a creative practitioner. Youdon't I mean, I'm using my
creativity and I'm, I'm shiftingit into a different way. But
actually, the actual makingprocess is what actually I find
(39:49):
that most deeply fulfilling andrewarding inside of me. So yeah,
art definitely saved me withouta doubt, right. So that's number
one. And number two is art soyou know, when I look at
Accumulate and I look at thepeople that have come through
it. And I look at people likeNicole and Crystal and Lisa, and
Mitchell and you know, otherpeople, you know, I, I look at
them and I say, it's given themso much it's given them the,
(40:16):
the, you know, there's oneperson, you know that I'm not
gonna mention names, but youknow, she came to the first
workshop with us in 2020ndashe literally sat there, and she
had her sleeves over her hands,you know, she was crawling
inside of her jumper, becauseshe was so uncomfortable with
herself, and everything. And shecouldn't quite, you know, it
(40:39):
took a long time. And when shespoke, this was in September
2020, she spoke she said, it wasa first, you know, a time that
she'd been with other people.Since, you know, the six months
of Covid. Since March she'dbeen in her room, you know, it
was a huge challenge for her.She went on she's, you know, a
scholarship winner. She's beengiven places at both Central
(41:01):
Saint Martins and at Chelsea tostudy Fine Art degree level. I
mean, honestly, that isbrilliant, just absolutely
brilliant. So Can art save us?Yes, it can. And it can do so
much more, because the peoplethat have gone through this
process will be contributing indifferent ways to society, but
(41:22):
also there'll be, they will feelwhole and feel good. And Bill
able and the drain, if you wantto talk about that on, you know,
on the mental health service onmedication, you know, is
reduced, you know, the misuse ofsubstances is reduced. The
feeling that people can actuallydo more with their lives and
(41:45):
feel good about themselves isincreased. And so yeah, art
definitely saves us and I justwish there was more of it.
Because well, this nationcertainly needs it now.
I couldn't agree more. And it'sfantastic having your
perspective on this andwouldn't it be great if some of
(42:06):
your cups could become hugepublic installations, and maybe
remind us all how important itis to fill our own cups with the
things that make us well andbelong and connect?
Happier? I mean, you know, it's,it's definitely I don't, you
know, I don't seek that glory. Idon't, you know, it's not really
(42:28):
what I'm about. But if I feelthat, that honesty and that
bravery, and that openness totalk about the difficulties that
I personally challenged myself,you know, I've been challenged
by personal difficulties, youknow, just dealing with stuff
that honesty and that bravery,that I feel I'm able to do now,
(42:48):
because of what I've gonethrough, if that any way helps
somebody else to thinkdifferently, or to think then
just not alone, you know, Ithink that's fine by me, one
person is fine by me, you know,and so it's, it's great to have
what I've got now, I realized,you know, it's taken a lifetime,
(43:08):
whatever. But I've been very,very privileged and lucky to
have it. I don't take itlightly. But I struggled to get
here. I'm here now, and I ain'tgiving it up.
Do not give it up and gigantic congratulations for
being brave enough andcourageous enough to get there,
you know, to face thosechallenges to get there and to
(43:29):
be kind enough to share whatthat means and what that looks
like.
Yeah. It's funny what you learnat the end of the sorry to
interrupt. It's funny, you know,what you learned through doing
that, you know, thank youfor saying that because as much
as it's just like, Accumulate asmuch as it's for other people at
the core, it's for me. And thankyou.
You're more thanwelcome. Thank you for sharing
(43:52):
it. I'm hoping that you know,these perspectives will really
be inspiring for people thatlisten, you know, about what
change can take, to recognizetheir own acts of courage to
recognize we're often all veryvulnerable often. But your
stories and examples are reallyinspiring. So thank you very,
(44:14):
very much for making the timetoday.
It was an absolute pleasure.Thank you. I'm sorry, I'm gonna
rush it's like one of thoselike, you know, back to back
zoom call meeting day to day butthank you. Good luck. Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.