Creative Destruction in a Globalised World

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to thispodcast series asking the
question, Can art save us? I'mstarting the first national and
international conversation aboutcourage and curiosity. What do
these qualities really mean, andwhy does it make a big
difference to our mental,societal and democratic health?
I talk to award winning anddiverse artists across the arts

(00:24):
to explore these qualities intheir lives and work both to
inspire and for us all to learn.I'm exploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? My

(00:49):
guest today is a multidisciplinary artist and curator
from Chile currently based inLondon. Tere Chad is fast rising
as an international artist, andto date, she has held seven solo
exhibitions, completed sevenresidencies, participated in
more than 50 collectiveexhibitions, and has curated

(01:10):
over 20 shows on four differentcontinents. Her practice
includes sculpture, painting,poetry, performance, textiles,
installation and silversmithing,promoting Latin American art and
culture is core to her work, andthe global south informs her
response to the climate crisis,migration, sustainability and

(01:31):
humanity. In 2020 she wasgranted a global talent visa for
exceptional promise to continueher practice here in the UK, she
graduated with a Masters of artin sculpture from the Royal
College of Art, and in 2021 shewas accepted as a member of the
Royal Society of sculptors. Teobserves modern life and the

(01:53):
impact of fast changingtechnologies, media
sensationalism and digitaldistortion on human connections.
She elevates what ancientcivilizations and indigenous
knowledge can teach us. Asignificant and current project
that began in 2017 is NeoNorte, or new North, an
artistic research initiativethat turns the world map upside

(02:16):
down to challenge dominantgeopolitical narratives and the
displacement of power. NeoNorte has showcased
internationally with more than565,000 visitors, fostering
cross cultural dialogs for aninterconnected world. Tere's
portfolio of work is diverse andalready huge, and I am delighted

(02:37):
she can join us today and helpopen more windows onto the
world. Hello Tere and welcome tocannot save us. Hello
Paula, good morning. Thank youfor inviting me to this amazing
initiative and podcast.
Oh, bless you. That's very kindof you to say. And likewise, I
am truly delighted to havediscovered all of your own

(03:00):
amazing initiatives and artprojects. So thank you for
making the time. Tere, I thoughta lovely place to start might be
via a quote of yours, and yousaid, I've always been active,
adventurous and curious. And Iwondered, do you think of

(03:20):
yourself as both an artist and acurious explorer?
Well, indeed I do, because as ayoung child, growing up in
Chile, of course, I think that'sone of the benefits of most of
the countries in the GlobalSouth, that you're far more

(03:41):
exposed to nature, but also kindof like wild nature. And I grew
up with a strong connection tothe mountains and the sea. But
of course, I was exposed as wellto kind of like earthquakes and
sometimes like the strong seaand the snow and kind of like

(04:04):
different kind of like naturaldisasters as well. It's quite
common in Chile to sometimeshave a volcano exploding and
then having to do a campaign tosupport the town that have lost
their houses. So I guess thathaving this wild experiences as
a child and a bit of morefreedom also to go and climb

(04:25):
trees and grab and insectsand whatever that. I think it's
something that maybe people incities in Europe, children like
don't experience as much alsobecause parents are a bit, I
guess, more afraid of givingthem that freedom. I think it
also like, kind of likeinstigates curiosity. So I guess

(04:47):
it's something that natural thatcomes within you. But then also,
I was exposed to a kind of likenatural environment that allowed
me to like expand evenmore. And also I think that one
of the I always say it's aprivilege I had as a child was

(05:09):
that I was lucky to grow up witha big garden at home, and I had
very restricted hours oftelevision, so I couldn't watch
TV on weekdays and weekends. Itwas quite limited. So that
forced me to spend, like, hoursin the garden playing with

(05:31):
insects, finding things out. AndI think that actually makes you
someone curious.
Yeah, yeah. And it certainlyfrees up the mind. In fact, what
you were describing about thosediverse, strong natural
elements, you know, whether it'sa volcano, an unexpected

(05:51):
earthquake, hot sun, forexample, I wondered if that
related to another comment youmade, where you said, "I feel
very lucky to have been born inLatin America. It makes you more
resilient." And I really feltthat may play into a sense of

(06:12):
courage, a sense of being ableto be curious, a brave explorer,
if you like,
well when you think of Chile aswell, because I think that when
you think of the kind ofmigrants that arrived to Chile,
Chile was a poorest country inthe Spaniard colony. So then the

(06:36):
people that arrived there were,I think that most of them were
explorers or adventurers, ofpeople who are actually like
mad, and I think that's quitewithin the national identity.
It's a country that's very goodfor kind of like outdoor sports
and and when you see the work ofI would say we have a very

(07:01):
strong literature and poetry.And when you see the work of our
famous poets like Pablo Nerudaor Gabriela Mistral or
Nicanor Parra, or even maybe frommore contemporary point of view,
Pedro le Mevelle, they write ina way that they take you to,

(07:24):
kind of, like to unexpectedscenarios. But it's in a
different way of, like the kindof like classical magic realism
of, let's say Garcia Marquez,this kind of, like unexpected I
think it has to do a bit withthe landscape. I don't know if
you by any chance saw in socialmedia, because it has been all

(07:46):
over the place. This video ofthis Venezuelan who was doing
kayak with his dad in close toPunta Arenas in the sea, and
then this is whale that justeats him. Wow. So it has
been this
few days. Oh no, I've missed it.That sounds shocking. And
then the guy is so funny,because when they interview him,

(08:08):
he's totally chill, and he'slike, Oh, well, yeah, I was
eaten by the whale, but then hesent away, and the dad is so
chill about it.
That's incredible. Wow.
You just grow up seeing allthese kind of like contrast and
unusual scenarios that you don'tget to see much in in Europe.

(08:29):
For me, sometimes when I when Igo to work in Latin America, in
one week, I have sometimes likemore I think that the sense of
time is just different, becauseeverything is far more intense
and more passionate. Sosometimes in one week, you
experience the emotions that youwould be experienced like in in
six months or in a year in theUK or so, I just feel you're far

(08:51):
more exposed to this kind oflike an unexpected scenarios.
And then the geography in Chileplays a strong reference to it,
because if you think of it,Chile, it's like an island
within the continent. Basically,you have the driest desert of

(09:12):
the world in the north. Then youhave the Andes, which is kind of
like limiting or separating usfrom Argentina. But then also,
it's not the only the Andes. Wehave two mountain ranges, so we
have the Andes and the Costarange. And then in the south you
have basically Antarctica, whichis just ice. And then you have

(09:35):
the Pacific Ocean. And theclosest place is Easter Island,
which is like six hour flight.So basically, it's very, very
isolated, and it's, it's a placewhere it's quite living there,
it's harsh. I mean, every likeeven connecting different towns

(09:55):
and villages. Reason why I thinkthat it's very concentrated.
Santiago, but only the 2% ofChilean geography is
inhabitable, because the rest islike mountain size or desert or
volcanoes or so it's just quitevery wild, you know. So the

(10:16):
people that arrived there, in away, they were adventurers and
explorers, because just toarrive there, it was quite
difficult. If they wanted, like,more security, they would have
gone to Argentina or the statesor even Brazil. But just
arriving to Chile was difficult.That's why it because if they

(10:37):
sail from the south, basicallythey had to go through the trade
sea, and then, until nowadays,is one of the most dangerous
crossings. People who say, knowabout that? And you have to go
with someone from the Navy, fromChile, because otherwise they're
scared of people just gettinglike, not being able to cross.

(11:00):
And basically, then, if theymanaged to cross the track sea
that the province was arrivingto Valparaiso, which actually
translates as Valparaiso,which means goes to Paradise,
because it was like, it meantthat you had kind of like
survived that very dangerouscrossing.
Yeah, yeah. This is, this is allreally dramatic, interesting

(11:24):
context, and it really makes youthink your ancestral DNA, if you
like, is inevitably one of, youknow, courage, risk exploring. I
know you've said in terms ofyour own identity, you know
you're from a family of Europeanmigrants, but you also describe
yourself as having a globalidentity in a globalized world.

(11:50):
Well, I think that,
in a way, and this is one of thematters I do addressed in Neo
Norte, is that all what is itreally to be a Latin American?
Because we're mixed a mix of somany different identities that
convey together. Because, ofcourse, we have indigenous

(12:15):
there's a Afro descendancy inChile that's a bit newer,
because we didn't have such astrong slavery history,
fortunately, because it was oneof the poorest parts of the
Spanish colony, so it was morekind of like economic decision.
Then you have like, Europeans.You also have Asian communities,

(12:39):
and not much in Chile, but youdo have strongly in Peru and
Brazil. In Chile, for example,we have the largest Palestinian
community outside Palestina, andyou also have strong Jewish
communities. So it's it's such amelting pot. So I think that we
do have a common language, whichwould be Spanish and Portuguese.

(13:02):
Well, there's some islands inthe Caribbean such speak French
as well. We do have a kind oflike common history. We have
some cultural traits in common,but it's such a melting pot. And
for me, one of the bigchallenges, and I think that I
hope the world really keeps thatdirection. It's how to keep an

(13:27):
identity at the same time weembrace global identity. And why
I'm saying that, because I thinkthat any kind of like
nationalism, where you try topush that one culture is better
of the other than the other.It's just wrong. I think it's
important to just celebratecultural diversity, because

(13:50):
that's what as a creative Irecognize it in my own self.
It's what's make you creative,and it's what pushes innovation.
When you get to meet someone whothinks differently than you, is
what actually makes your ideasprogress and makes you think
differently, and makes you beingcreative. And I think that one

(14:11):
of the fears, and I guess that'sone of the reasons why the
UNESCO has named this decade asa decade of the indigenous
languages is because withglobalization and social media
and the internet, we're kind oflike losing many tongues around

(14:35):
the world And many culturaltraits, especially because
sometimes people from indigenouscommunities. I had the
opportunity of doing my firstproject in Easter Island, and
worked a lot with indigenouspeople from Easter Island. And
you can see that sometimespeople are a bit like
embarrassed of the kind of likeroots in a way, and they want to

(14:59):
look more Westernized. And Ithink that for me, it's, it's
one of the big challenges of the21st century, is, how do we
embrace a kind of like globalidentity, in the sense that I
feel that trying to limitglobalization is just silly,
because it's not going to work.We already are globalized and

(15:21):
depend one from another, and youcan see that I've said this in
the past in other interviews,but when you see how fast COVID
was propagated, you can reallysee how connected we
are, yeah,
so, and to face many of thechallenges of the 21st century
in terms of like, how are wegoing to integrate artificial

(15:46):
intelligence, and how are wegoing to face many of the
challenges of climate change, weneed a global coordination. And
I guess some of the kind oflike, international
organizations that should beresponding to this are not
really accomplishing the task aswe would expect them to, because
I think that the level of thechallenges is just kind of like

(16:08):
overwhelming. This isinstitutions in a way, yeah,
yeah. But at the same time, Ithink it's relevant and
important to kind of likeembrace and keep cultural
diversity and the knowledge ofancestral cultures, because
that's what actually keeps uscreatives and keeps us

(16:29):
innovating. And we would allthink of the same way and dress
in the same way and be on thesame way we would stop being
creative. Yeah, absolutely.
I think, I think you're veryclear that whilst you promote
cultural diversity, respect,want to protect cultural
diversity. You're not talkingabout descending

(16:49):
internationalism into, you know,in terms of any one identity
dominating another. And I thinkyour project Neo Norte
addresses everything you werejust saying brilliantly well.
And I wondered if, for thelisteners, you'd like to just
explain how Neo Norte isprogressing. I know it began in

(17:14):
2017 you collaborate, youcurate, you create. And of
course, that really interestingproposition of turning the world
map upside down and the globalsouth becomes the new global
north, in response to all ofthose issues you were just

(17:35):
highlighting.
Well, basically this startedbecause I know for people who
might have heard our otherinterviews might sound
repetitive, but it's becauseit's always the same story. But
basically, when I was acceptedto do my master's first before
studying at the Royal College ofArt, I did a master's in Arts

(17:57):
and Science at St Martin's, andfor the first time, because I
lived most of my life beforecoming to the UK in Chile,
except of a brief period in theUS,
but for most of my life i
i was just in Chile, so I neverreally thought of myself as

(18:19):
Latin American. And it's notthat I didn't know about it in a
kind of like geographical sense,even though, well, Latin America
is not that your graphicaldefinition is more about the
language because it referencescountries that have a Latin
language, let's say which couldbe Spanish, Portuguese or

(18:40):
French, yeah. But then when Icame to the UK, of course, I was
kind of like being addressed asLatin American. And then I
started feeling quite sad thatthen image of Latin America,
it's sometimes quite limited,and it the first thing that

(19:02):
people would mention was kind oflike Narcos or sun or Samba. And
they would think that Chile is atropical country, which is
definitely not. If you go to thesouth of Chile, it's like
Scotland is rain the whole year.Or if you go even Southern, it's
even worse. Wow. But basically,I was quite sad and I and I

(19:26):
felt, you know what, we have aresponsibility of how we're
being of how these narrativesare being constructed. Because I
started reflecting, actually,that in school, we study more
history about Europe than LatinAmerica. We did have to learn
about all the kind of likenative tribes from Chile and the

(19:47):
main native civilizations, whichare the of the region, which are
the Aztecs in mages and theIncas. But besides that, we
never actually had like Latin.American theory. We had to read
some Latin American authors,like the basic ones, like Garcia
Marquez or maybe like Borges,you know. But we actually

(20:12):
studied for more the history ofEurope, which, of course, is
important. And because whathappens, I've sometimes feel
that some people as a reactionto this start like, Oh no, but
now we just have to study theindigenous culture and that. I
think that would also be amistake going to the other
extreme, because we are culturesthat come from a mix of the

(20:35):
European colonizers that arrivedto Latin America with all the
indigenous people and also theslaves abroad and etc. So I
think that I'm not trying to saywe don't have to study Europe,
because, of course, it's part ofour cultural inheritance, but I
do think it's somehow wrong nothaving like to study like Latin

(20:57):
American theory. It's almost asif it didn't exist as an
idea. Exactly. It doesn't evenexist in the school, in school
as a in the curriculum, youknow, as an idea, as a kind of
like when you have so manyinteresting authors and so many
interesting creative people. AndI think that partly what ends up
happening is that the image withpeople have internationally is a

(21:23):
kind of like portrayal ofMexican that appears in the
Hollywood movies that normallyit's also it's not like I have
done three projects in Mexico. Ithink it's a wonderful country
with very lots of creativepeople, and I none of the people
I've met in Mexico look like thekind of Mexican they put in the
Hollywood movies. Yeah, yeah,

(21:44):
the stereotypes. And also
the stereotype is always ofsomeone who's like, a bit dumb
and slow and not cool in a way,you know. But also we're
responsible for that, becausemany times what happens is that
many of the Latin Americans goabroad and have some
international recognition.They're seen as kind of like,

(22:09):
okay, Europeans, in a way.Because, for example, when you
think of like Lucio Fontana, manypeople would say, oh, but he was
Italian and not Argentinian. Or,for example, Roberto Matta, some
people would say Oh, but he wasactually French or not Chilean.
Or Mario Testino. They wouldalso say Oh, but he's not

(22:30):
Peruvian. So many of the kind oflike, actually, people who have
done interesting workinternationally. They are not
necessarily framed as LatinAmericans. And I think that what

(22:53):
ends up happening is thatsometimes people, they're not,
kind of like proud of their ownheritage, and they tried to,
kind of like to, to be someonethat they're not. I used to see
a lot, for example, with my withmy peers in Chile. It
was quite common that younggirls would just dye their hair

(23:14):
blonde to look like moreEuropean or whatever. Wow, I've
never dyed my hair? Because Idon't know, I love my hair. I
think it's okay, but it's justlike, why are people just doing
that? And it's just trying tokind of like, just not being

(23:34):
proud of your own heritage, in away. Yeah,
this is very interesting. Itraises two things in my mind.
One is how you've referred tomigration as a form of creative
destruction, whether that canplay out positively or
negatively, perhaps. But also interms of an inspiration of

(23:59):
yours, the significance ofVioleta Parra a Chilean artist,
also famous for the New Songprotest movement. She is so
significant in terms ofsurviving conflicts, if you
like, around justifying herauthenticity, and it reminds me

(24:24):
of what you were just saying, ohbut they're not really Cuban, oh
but they're not really Mexican.And these definitions, and who
is making these definitions,who's deciding who somebody is
and what their cultural identityis?
Well, I because you've asked twoquestions. So I'll go, Yeah,

(24:47):
first one and then to the secondone. I speak about migrations as
creative distractions, becausethat's how I see them, and I
feel that I. Yeah, and ofcourse, people might disagree,
but I, I personally don't thinkthat arts has to give a

(25:09):
straightforward answer. Arts isa media that allows research. Is
a media that allows creativethinking, creative progress,
collective thinking. It allowsquestioning and reflection. But
I don't like as an artist,giving an answer. I like people

(25:29):
who come to an exhibition tohave their own questions. So
when I speak of a creativedestruction, I think that
they're two very goodreferences. One is this is Hindu
goddess called Kali, that shehas destructive methods to
create. And interestinglyenough, there's another an
economist called Alios. I am notpronouncing what his name, but

(25:53):
Alois Schumpeter, who he speaksabout innovation as a way of
creative destruction. And theseare very like opposite
references. And when you thinkany kind of innovation, and you
study any kind of likeinvention, is always like an
accident, that you know thatsomeone did something was not in
the way it should, and then itcreated something. There's this

(26:18):
theory of the I forgot the nameof the author. Now, the of
putting, like, the hats ofdifferent colors or from to,
kind of like push lateralthinking, yeah. And I think that
when you think of migration, youhave a new group of people that
arrives to a place with theirown new culture. And of course,

(26:39):
it generates somehow adistraction of what was there,
because the people who are theremay adopt their kind of like way
of being, or may also generate aclash. But then by having this
kind of like clashes andconversations and discussion,
that's when you have innovation.I think that London, for

(27:02):
example, is a very creative citybecause you have lots of clashes
when you think, as well as SaoPaulo is also another very
creative city where you have alot of progress and exchange and
innovation in various senses,not only like in the arts of
filming, but also like ineconomy on industries, and I

(27:23):
think it also has to do becauseyou have a clash of so many
different people from so manydifferent cultures. And I think
that when this is addressed in apositive way with the right
policies, it's just amazing. Imean, to see like, is all the
cities where you get I mean,when you study history, even if

(27:47):
you when you think of Sicily,like the golden period of
Sicily, they did had a kind oflike place where they allowed
people from different religiousto convey on the same place.
They were Jewish, Muslim andChristian and the same place,
and it became such a creativecity and place as well. So I
think that always, when youallow this kind of like freedom

(28:12):
of expressions of diversecultures with tolerance, you do
get a lot of innovation. That'swhy I see migrations, if they're
addressed properly, as apositive thing. On the other
hand, going back to what youwere saying about Violeta Parra,
I find her a very interestingcharacter of Chilean history.

(28:40):
Firstly, because she was quiteundiminished, for
example, in school, I had tostudy her brother, but I never
studied, actually, VioletaParra, yeah, probably she was
mentioned once in kind of likemusic, because she's one of the
famous, like folklore singers inChile. So some of her songs that

(29:01):
probably we had to see them likein in music, but she was never
actually like addressed in ineither history or literature or
any other subject or arts.Actually, the only women like
Chilean women we had to actuallystudy was Gabriela Mistral, who

(29:22):
is a poet who won a Nobel Prize,but Violeta Parra I think that
she was seen as a bit of out ofthe mainstream, because she was
far advanced for her times,because she was actually using
like textile art as a way ofprotesting or expressing

(29:46):
herself, and I think thatactually, I had this
conversation on Saturday. I wasvisiting Messums London, I'm not
sure if I'm pronouncing it well,and I was speaking with a
curator. Here, and he wasshowing me a fantastic book
about ceramics that they justpublished. And I said, Well, we

(30:07):
were just speaking about whyceramics and textile are always
kind of like under looked as inthe mainstream. And I think
partly is because the materialhas less durability than maybe
metal or stone, which is nottotally true, because there's
lots of like pre Columbiantextile and ceramic work,

(30:28):
fantastic when you visit like apre Columbian like, for example,
the pre Columbian Museum inSantiago, that have 1000s of
years and are now basicallyintact, but I think that it's
often under looked because itwas a kind of work that was
mostly done by women, becausebasically, you would have the
sculptor working in bronze or instone, and then women would

(30:52):
actually work in textile art orin ceramics. But for me,
Violeta, it's an interestingcharacter, because I actually,
I, of course, I knew about herbecause she's kind of like main
in the Chilean folklore, but Ididn't had to never like
research about her at a youngerage. So I basically became more

(31:15):
interested at her in a kind oflike adult stage of my career
and development, and when Iarrived to Central St. Martins,
and I started with this NeoNorte project that it's, it's
inspired in Joaquin TorresGarcia as a way of changing a
bit the narrative of the regionof the victimization. Because I

(31:39):
think that, in a way, we hold upthis image that we are kind of
like underdeveloped, and thisalso limits the under
development. So what I'm tryingto do with this project is
question a bit these narrativesand try to promote our positive
cultural values and see what wecan contribute to the global
north or to the world, to kindof like to foster development,

(32:01):
instead of kind of like justbeing stuck in this idea that we
are under development. We can'tdo anything else and but so what
I when I started developing NeoNorte, I was at St. Martins, and I
co founded the Latinos creativesociety to meet with other Latin
Americans, and can see what wecould do and what was also

(32:23):
possible in at our reach. So oneof the things that I felt was,
you know what I'm going to startattending to events that have to
do with Latin America? Do Iactually meet other people in
London who might be interestedon it? And I saw that the Latin
American house. It was asymposium of conference of

(32:45):
someone who had been researchingabout Violeta Parra so actually
went and really loved theconference. And then I met
someone in this conference thatcontacted me to Roberta with
Roberta Bacic, who's the curatorof conflict textiles. That's a
collection of arpilleras inNorthern Ireland. Oh, wow, yeah.

(33:08):
And I think that has actuallyhad a big impact on my career
and personal development, andalso in Neo Norte's development,
because I always try tointegrate a more kind of like
folk expressions, like arpillerasor textile work within the
context of digital or kind oflike new media. But one of the

(33:33):
things that strikes me aboutVioleta is that she was very
advanced for her times by beinglike a woman and coming from
such a kind of like macho,sexist society. So just being
the first Latin America thatlove phrase just
Yeah, yeah, it is astonishing.I'll quickly flag here to for

(33:56):
listeners that in season eight,there is an episode with
Professor Erica Verber, who isthe biographer of the new
Violeta Parra book called Thisis life that's a translation of
her iconic song, Gracias a laVida. And it's an astonishing

(34:17):
work, because it clearly detailshow her life and opportunities
were so gendered. And you'vementioned her brother a few
times, a world renowned poet,but the gendered opportunities
were significantly different.You know, a scholarship that was
available for him, that was, infact, only available for boys,

(34:39):
and yet she went on to achieveincredible things. It was by no
means easy. Her life endedtragically by suicide, but she's
a significant voice and asignificant influence and
inspiration, and the examplesyou mentioned around. Around

(35:00):
textiles and song, in terms ofprotest, in terms of women
having a voice, women that weretraditionally were oppressed
from having a voice, embroideredpatchwork that was revealing the
atrocities, for example, of thecruel Pinochet regime. It's all

(35:20):
so incredibly important. Andwhen you mentioned Northern
Ireland, it reminds me of yourwork Woven Hug. And I wondered
if you'd like to illustrate thatfor the listeners, because I
really like that you're raisingthe importance of textile
experiences, but you're alsoreturning, you know, to to those

(35:46):
arts like weaving, to be able tocreate messages, particularly
where there's been a context ofFear and conflict.
Well, I think that one of thereally important things of
Violeta, not only as you'vejust mentioned, of being like a

(36:07):
kind of like an example of awoman in terms of, like,
fighting for her rights andopportunities. And I think that
even though her life end upquite sadly, she has really had
an impact in many women in LatinAmerica. I think one of her main
roles was also that she kind oflike placed traditional folk,

(36:32):
traditional Chilean folk, thathad been quite underlooked in
the kind of like mainstream as akind of like valid form of
culture. She placed it as a kindof like it can be a valid form
of culture, because I wouldpresume that arpilleras were and
there's a very good movie ofAndres Wood about Violeta Parra,

(36:57):
where you can see that she'strying to show her work the kind
of like patrons of the arts, andthey're all kind of like under
looking at it like this is not aform of art. And when she
actually gets a place at thelouver, this really changes. And
one of her pieces was actuallylast year at Unravel exhibition
in at the Barbican. And this thefamous Las Bordadoras de Isla Negra

(37:21):
arpilleras, which had disappearedfor many, many years and
reappeared in 2019 which wasmade via the large community in
Isla Negra in Chile just beforethe coup d'etat in 73 was actually one
of the main pieces selected byAdriano Pedroza for Stranieri

(37:44):
Ovunque de Biennale of Venezialast year. So going back to
Woven Hug, and why I'vementioned this is because I
remember, for the first NeoNorte, I wanted to include three
arpilleras of conflict textiles,in one of the rooms that was

(38:07):
speaking about the contrast orintegration with the natural and
the digital. So we had thistextile work from conflict
textiles. It was also work fromthe Ecuadorian artist Susan
Ovidia, and also from an Italianartist called Matteo Valerio. At
the same time I had like digitalpainting from Gordon Bergera,
and there was another kind of,like digital video, with an

(38:30):
integration of old films fromNicolas Canal among other
pieces. So the idea was kind oflike bringing a dialog of how
to, kind of like traditionalcrafts remain at the same time
they face new technologies. AndI remember speaking to a
collector, an art collector whoI'm very fond of her, she has

(38:53):
always been very supportive withme and and she said to me, no,
no, no, but you can't putarpilleras because that's not a
place for them. It's not likefor Contemporary Arts and and I
was quite shocked by thatcomment, because why would it
not be contemporary arts? Yeah,and I think that and this part

(39:14):
of what I tried to do in orderwas try to integrate the
indigenous with the folk and theWestern language on one place,
all the different expressionsthat convey within one identity.
And in that sense, I was quiterecently at the curator talks
of the exhibition that you havenow at the Royal Academy, where

(39:37):
there was Roberta Saliva,who's one of the curators. And
actually, it was interestingbecause, and it was with Adrian
Locke, and also another curator but they were
speaking, like in Brazil, therewas not just one modernism.
There were plural Modernisms. Itwas a plural, you know, because

(39:59):
he had. Are so many people fromso many different backgrounds
that it was not just one modernmessage. So why for me,
arpilleras is important. Or whatdo I find interesting about
them. I always I found it verydifficult to speak about the

(40:21):
dictatorship, because I was bornin democracy. Yeah, then I don't
want to kind of like, speak ofsomething I didn't live but what
I find interesting about thearpilleras as is basically two
things. One is that it's a folkart that becomes political, and
then it's something that allowsthe involvement of a community

(40:46):
so that we can do together as acommunity. And textile, I find
it a very versatile media whenyou're working with people who
might not come from a kind oflike arty or crafty background,
because it's a material that weall have a relationship with,
with we all dress in themorning, so because we all need

(41:09):
to dress in the morning, orhopefully, we all have a
relationship with textiles, andit becomes a second skin. And
when you're doing a kind of likecollective arpillera is not so
much about doing the perfectstitch, but it's far more about

(41:29):
the conversations that thismeeting point that you have in
the center the arpillera wouldbring along with the people who
joined the workshop. And so Ihad a very strong interest on
seeing how you could use thislanguage of arpilleras in a kind

(41:51):
of like contemporary scenario.So for people who don't know
what an arpillera is, is atraditional folk embroidery and
stitching from South America,mainly countries like Chile,
Argentina, Peru, where,basically, instead, it's a kind
of like working class teaching,you could say, because they did

(42:13):
the stitching and patchwork andembroidery over bull lap or
potato sacks, because theydidn't have access to other
media, and gives quite aninteresting esthetic, but it was
also a way of telling andnarrating stories with visual
language. So Roberta Bacic, thecreator of conflict textiles,

(42:40):
introduced me to a Mexicanacademic called a Riso, with
whom I've done fourcollaborations in Northern
Ireland and Mexico. And we weretogether quite interesting of
seeing how the arpilleras languagecould be used in a kind of like
more contemporary arts form foran installation. So we first

(43:02):
started speaking this during thepandemic into southern 20 and
after two years developing aproject, we proposed this idea
to the cultural lab of NuevoLeon in the north of Mexico, of
doing like a 20 meters long hugwith the community, telling the
stories and giving a media ofexpression and a means of

(43:24):
expression to tell the storiesof what people have lived here
in the pandemic. So this wasactually a very beautiful
project, and then the projectreally caught a lot of attention
in conflict textiles website. Sothat's when we got in touch.

(43:46):
Roberta passage put us in touchwith the Flower Fields Art
Center, and we did this wovenhack project in Northern
Ireland. But it was interesting,because even though it was like
the same project, in a way, itchanged totally. Because in
Mexico, the kind of likeconversations were more about

(44:07):
security in the public spaces,
the pandemic violence ingeneral, with all the kind of
like narco issues, and theydisappeared in Mexico that was a
kind of like themes that came upwhile people were embroidering,
and also the idea of a hug, theidea of a smile, how do you come

(44:29):
together? Why it's important thehug, why it's important coming
together. Whereas in NorthernIreland, the themes were far
more behind the kind of like thetrails of the troubles, also we
had associated with the linenBiennale. So it was about the

(44:50):
linen heritage and how linen ismore sustainable than cotton in
many ways, also, because we'rein the coast, we're speaking.
About the impact of climatechange and how it's eroding the
coast. Also, we were havingdiscussions about the relevance

(45:10):
of conflict textile archives inNorthern Ireland. So I guess
what I find interesting of doingsomething like that, that it was
basically a 20 meters long hugmade with textiles that was
exhibited at Flower Fields atCenter for like a month during
the summer. Is at first, thelots of people that don't

(45:32):
approach contemporary artsbecause they feel is just for
kind of like, like an elite orthey're not educated enough,
yeah, part of it, and that's whyI try to not all of my projects
are participatory, but I do likeengaging with participatory
projects, because I think that'sa way that you you open the
doors for anyone to be part ofthe process, yeah, when you open

(45:57):
the process to the community,they also feel that they belong
to the construction of thesocial fabric and the
construction of this of theheritage of a place. And then
the other thing is that I feelthat sometimes when people have
gone through trauma, because wedid, for example, in Northern
Ireland, what one of theworkshops with a group called

(46:20):
VAST which is Victims andSurvivors Trust. When
people have gone through trauma,you just don't want to speak
about things, you know. Andthere's also like, the all this
media sensationalism that andthis kind of like, oh, that they
want to tell the terriblestories because they sell. And
it's just like people don't feellike speaking anymore, yeah. So

(46:42):
I think that with sometimesvisual media and visual arts and
connecting with your hands, witha community, do you have a space
to express yourself where you'renot forced to give words, you
know? Yeah, and I think thisreally helps mending a social

(47:05):
fabric. And also, when you'reusing recycled textiles, that
was the case, you're also kindof like generating more
sustainable consciousness aboutthe amount of pollution that's
being produced with fastfashion.
Yeah, yeah, there's so manyvaluable qualities to this kind

(47:26):
of work. This this work with anemphasis on community
engagement, and particularlywhen you're highlighting the
significance of trauma, you knowthe need to not necessarily even
revisit the trauma or articulateit, but perhaps find a
different, safer way to expressyour experience and within a

(47:49):
safer environment. And thisreally brings me to your really
interesting emphasis on therisks, if you like, of digital
immersion, the digital world andchaos and disinformation that we
find ourselves competing with interms of human connection. So I

(48:12):
saw how you framed the idea ofthe spectacle that digital
technology is disconnecting usfrom reality or human
connection, and instead, it'sempowering a society of the
spectacle.
Well, I think that even thoughworking in various media, I

(48:34):
think that there's always thetheatrical or the spectacle
spectacular, let's say elementis always present in my work, or
kind of like the references tothe circus or to playfulness,
and it's my way of denouncingthe spectacle, if it makes sense
what I'm trying to say. And Ijust went to Hugh locks

(48:58):
exhibition at the BritishMuseum. And one of the things
that for me remain veryinteresting about this
exhibition is that he uses humorto address the past and issues
that are quite delicate. And Ithink that when you use humor,
sometimes people are far moreopen to discuss things and to

(49:22):
because you're not attackingpeople. I feel that when you try
to use a kind of, like, quiteradical language and just
attacking people or imposingyour own ideas, you don't
resolve any problem, because youjust, you immediately put a
barrier against the other one toactually have a conversation
about things. And I really likea lot the work of Hugh lock or

(49:43):
William Kentridge, because Ithink that they both use humor
as a way of addressing delicateissues. But why do we speak
about the spectacle? And I thinkthat one of my big references
was guy the board and thesociety of the spectacle while I
was doing my masters. Is, isbecause I feel that another

(50:04):
interesting reference in thisregard is Byung Chul Han that he
speaks about where we're kind oflike browsing information, but
we don't have attention toremain on a moment and a place.
And when you think about howcontent and information and

(50:25):
debate is being made, it's justabout a tweet. Yeah. And many
issues, they're far morecomplicated. Is you can't
resolve them through a tweet,no, not at all. And also they
have so many nuances and andit's not like the world was
black and white, and what I feelthat's going on. And even I was

(50:48):
just reading recently an articleat the was it the economist
about how much has increased,like plastic surgery, yeah. And
even young women, which I findit very sad, yeah. I think
there's a sense of, like tryingto detach ourselves from a kind

(51:08):
of like human condition. Andwhen you see, like young models
or actresses, they're all kindof, like homogenizing their
faces into a same kind of likestereotype of face, yeah, and I
read that as a expression ofdetachment of our own reality.

(51:32):
And I think that this is OrtegaGasset. Is a Spaniard
philosopher who has a book I canremember, I wouldn't know how to
translate it in Spanish,humanization de la arte, or the
dehumanization of the arts. Andhe explains, like, the
development of, like, theapproach within the arts, or to

(51:53):
the arts since, kind of likeprimitive times, until early
20th century. And he tells it atthe beginning when we, or
humans, change their positionfrom a kind of like forefoot to
a bipedal position. Or people, Idon't know how to pronounce it,
first, we don't trust the eye.We trust far more the hands. And

(52:19):
within evolution, that changes,and we start trusting more the
eyes than and we lose the kindof like sensitivity of the touch
and
or our communication system. Andthis is what Guy Debord expresses
in the spectacle is based onimages and representation.

(52:39):
Because, for example, now we'respeaking, and I'm not seeing
your face, you're justimagining. And many of the
things that I'm describingyou're imagining. You're
imagining a large hug. You'reimagining the idea of turning
them upside down through NeoNorte. You're imagining the idea
of Violeta Parra that maybe youhave never seen. The way we
construct our thinking isthrough images, but when you

(53:02):
have an image, there's alwayssomething that's not being
represented on an image, becauseyou can show everything on an
image, and it can be quitemanipulated. So I feel that what
I find quite problematic is thateven though social media was as
a as an initial approach, shouldhave connected people at the end

(53:26):
of the day, I think it'sdisconnecting us because it's
generating is using algorithmsof making you connect with
people that think like you,yeah, and then also simplifying
language. So there was anarticle I read ages ago, in a
newspaper that was speakingabout how, for example, in
language, we have so manyadjectives to describe

(53:49):
something. So for example, ifthere's a new baby who's born,
maybe we say, Oh, what a cutebaby. Is this an earthquake? You
would say, Oh, how terrible. Howdreadful poor people. How can I
support them. Is in this award,you would say, Oh, this is a
good crime. How sad if someonewins an award, you would

(54:09):
congratulate them. But nowadays,with social media, you just have
one adjective, you have a like.And I personally never
understand when someonepublishes a picture of someone
who died, or a funeral, someoneputs alike. Why would the
funeral? Yeah, I don't likegoing to funerals. It's sad you
go, will support, but it's notsomething I would like. So I
personally don't put a like,because I don't think it's

(54:29):
something to like. And I thinkthat when you see it for like,
younger generations, justreducing language, and I find it
somehow quite frustrating that Ifind it hard meeting people of
my generation with whom you canhave like long conversations

(54:50):
without having 10 interruptionswith the phone. And I think that
we have a kind of likedissociation of. And everything
becomes a spectacle. And whenyou dissociate with from your
kind of like more basic instinctthat I think it's the haptic and
the touch, you basically don'tcare about your environment

(55:12):
anymore, because you create akind of like virtual world, a
virtual reality that's abstractand floating in another planet.
And why would you care about thereality anymore? So you kind of
like you get plastic surgery andto just have a persona or an
avatar for social media andcreate their virtual life that,

(55:34):
most of the times, has nocorrelation to your actually
real life. And that's why inmost of my work, I do try to
encourage a lot the idea of thehaptics and the idea of, like,
working a lot with the hands, sobringing the hands back to the
crafts, and to have thiscollective moment of doing

(55:55):
things with the hands. Because Ithink that this is a way that
when we actually have moments tostop and to discuss things. So
there was a very good book Iactually read as a reference for
woven hack, which was publishedby the Ulster museum from the
curator, I think her name isKaren Logan, if I'm not wrong,

(56:18):
but it was so basically, it's itwas like 20 years curating or 25
and curating the conflicts andthe troubles. And it was all the
things that the Ulster Museum hasdone to bring community
together, to reflect about thetroubles. And one of the things
that the book remarked quitestrongly was that it's okay to

(56:42):
think differently. And what Ifeel is that many times when you
see comments of people in socialmedia, they just have a click
with their finger and they justsend this silly comment of
hatred towards someone else, andit's a kind of like channel to
express their anger orfrustration, but probably they

(57:03):
wouldn't say that if they weremeeting this person in the pub.
Yeah, and when you have a spaceto work with someone that maybe
you have a totally differentopinion, you maybe understand
their point of view, and thatdoesn't and it's okay to have a
different opinion, and that'sthe mean that you're going to
change your own opinion. Butit's just about having a space
for dialog, for accepting thatmaybe your neighbor thinks

(57:25):
totally differently. And I thinkthat it really that what they
have done in Ulster Museum, it'sa kind of like international
case of study that should beapproached far more in this kind
of, like, polarized world we'reliving now.
Yeah, yeah. I think this is allincredibly important, and your
emphasis, consequently, onhaptic and tactile experiences

(57:51):
are hugely significant. Thedeepening distortion of the
digital world is lending itselfto such serious risk. It
promised to be a source, if youlike, of democratizing access to
information, but instead it'sbecome a very strange form of

(58:12):
control that's actuallythreatening democracy. It seems
to be very much about risk, andrisk is something that stands
out to me. In your work, too,you've responded to people at
risk. So I'll just brieflymention for the listeners,
there's been projects in Mexico,Mending Voids, which was about

(58:34):
women's safety in the region OnThe Edge, which was about
promoting peace because of thewar in Ukraine. You've also
worked with a project whichinvited women who had been
victims of violence in Sicily,and that was the Spinning
Pilgrimage. And you've alsosupported artists at risk. So

(59:00):
this really stood out to me thatyou are very responsive to risk,
and I wondered how you processedthat idea of risk in your work.
Oh, that's a good question,because in a way, I think that
it's not necessarily when yousee my work, sometimes it can

(59:22):
look quite naive. In many ways.I I don't like necessarily using
images that are like aggressiveor violent. That's why I on the
first side, I don't think thatmy work actually approaches
risk. But on the other hand, Ido think I do address lots of

(59:42):
delicate political issues beinga political why? What do I mean
by being a political? I thinkthat being an artist doesn't
force you to be an activist, andI think that artists can do far
more opening questions. As Isaid. Forth and kind of like
belonging to or campaigning forany political party, because

(01:00:06):
that actually gives you thefreedom to question what you
think it's actually needs somethought behind or needs some
improvement as a society. I dothink I take risk in the sense
that I'm not necessarily doingor trying to do what everyone
else is doing. So that's whyI've been approaching a lot like

(01:00:28):
participatory work. And also Ithink that with artificial
intelligence, the big value ofartists is actually to offer
experiences, because it'ssomething that artificial
intelligence is never going toreplace. And in terms of like
taking risk, I think that notall of my artwork involved like
risk of political issues, but Ido think it's for me. If I was

(01:00:53):
just doing like arts to selllike in art, first, I would just
feel empty and frustrated. Whatreally enriches me on my
practice is when I meet peoplewho are doing things that are
inspiring. I do think that artis at risk. They have a
fantastic project, and they'resupporting artists in different
war sites and in differentcountries where they cannot

(01:01:16):
express their arts. Or so weinvited them for a panel
discussion actually, with on theedge exhibition. On the Edge is
an exhibition I have co curatedwith members of the Royal
Society of sculptors in supportof our two Ukrainian members.
And we kind of like open up thisquestion of the idea of living

(01:01:37):
on the edge of uncertainty withclimate change and also with the
war in Ukraine and otherconflict around the world. So
some each artist took it fromdifferent ways. For example,
there's a Iranian artist in thegroup, Masha Amini, who did
like a performance that waswalking and tracking black

(01:02:00):
painted eggs over a black silkwhich some have references of
many of the political issues andsituations that women faced in
Iran. So the idea was opening upthat question and giving a space
where each of the artistsinvolved could respond. But I

(01:02:21):
think that for me, it isrelevant to keep this
conversation open and to takerisk within the arts, because I
think that when you see what'sgoing on with the algorithm, and
then things are actually goingone way or the other and black
and white, I do think that thearts, because it's a far more

(01:02:42):
complex language, and you cannotreally frame it in kind of like
statistics. It allows people tohave conversations that maybe
they're not going to have on anyother environment. And I think
it's important to keep thatfreedom of the arts and to keep
that space of taking risk, butalso sometimes taking risk to be

(01:03:05):
effective. From my point ofview, it doesn't necessarily
mean like being aggressivelyradical and trying to impose
your way of thinking intoothers, but it's more about
giving a space for people toexpress things that can be quite
delicate or complicated. So inMexico with Mending Voids, it

(01:03:27):
was actually a collaborationwith it, with them, university
Universidad de Monterrey withCordelia Riso, and also the
cultural lab of Nuevo Leon andCentro Cultural Plaza Fatima.
And the idea was, we express itthrough to performances, and
also we had an open dialog. Butthe idea was, with the

(01:03:47):
community, think about ways ofhow, through textile cycling and
performance, we could actuallymend the voids that remain in
social fabric when violence isnormalized, and particularly
violence against women. So wehad this kind of, like
participatory sculptures made bydifferent people who got

(01:04:08):
involved. They were all madewith the upcycling. And it was
like trying. It was interesting,because you not only needed to
collaborate in terms of, likeusing recycled material and
working with others on aphysical way. But also when you
perform and walk, there had tobe like a coordination and the

(01:04:28):
pieces as a visual they actuallyshow, because the performance or
models, it was in between a kindof like experimental catwalk,
but it was like four differentmodels connected together with
this kind of like garment. Andwhen you see people walking like
that, you can actually see howthe void between us, you

(01:04:50):
visualize it with also thelanguage of upcycling. That's a
very I find it a visceral way ofrepresenting for. Augmented
social fabric and a way ofmending it. And also the music,
which was composed at the timeby Alex Bustamante, he used,
actually like as a metronomousthe sewing machine. So tack,

(01:05:16):
tack, tack, tack, tack, tack,and the idea of using this
music, and also ambient soundfrom the streets was a way of
showing like the space and thevoid. Because the void, it was
interesting, because when we hadthis conversation speaking about
like mending voice, and westarted reflecting about what's
a void, the younger peopleinvolved in the group were

(01:05:38):
saying, and all of them werevolunteers and also, well,
students that would say, well,voice actually has a duality,
because on the one hand, theyounger ones were saying, well,
Void is an opportunity, but theold ones were saying, well,
actually, Void is something thatyou miss. And we wanted to
represent this with this kindof, like very marked tempo with

(01:05:58):
the sewing machine, which isquite aggressive as a sound
where you kind of like recordedwith like and some people I have
to the performance actuallycomplain that domino, the music
was too intense. And I said,well, but actually, this was not
about seeing beautiful garments.It was more about reflecting,
how do you feel alone in acorridor, in the street, when,

(01:06:21):
in a place like Mexico, where inthe last 10 to 15 years, like
100 or 150,000 people, I don'tknow, the real stats have
disappeared, and most of thesepeople are women, so it's a
place to actually have thisconversation, or at least a
reflection. And I think that thearts sometimes allows this

(01:06:42):
because it's themes that are sodelicate that even sometimes the
press does not really want toaddress them.
Yeah, yeah. I think this is sosignificant, and actually this
leads very well into the lastquestion. Actually, apologies,
we've crept over time, buteverything you've been saying is
so interesting, but the seriesquestion can art save us follows

(01:07:07):
on from the point of view of youknow how the arts can help us
dialog about difficult and verysensitive situations and issues
in the world. Obviously, there'sno one answer, but, but how do
you respond to that question?Tere, can art save us?

(01:07:30):
Well, I think that first, whatis very important is to try to
have a positive impact withinwhat's at your reach? Why I'm
saying that? Because oftenpeople think like, oh, well, I
can't do anything, because whatI'll do, it's just
insignificant. And I don't thinkit's like that. Even if you can

(01:07:51):
contribute just to one person inyour neighborhood, you will
already have an achievement aand why I'm saying this, because
Neo Norte project that startedlike a university project at
Central St Martins on 2017 afterfour editions, is now arriving
to one of the largest museums inLatin America at the Memorial

(01:08:14):
Da America Latina this year inSao Paulo. So I'm even
impressed, because I thought itwas going to take me far, long,
like a longer time, really, toarrive to a museum of this kind
of, like international impact,you would say, huge achievement.
I'm quite impressed, because I'mlike, I can't believe that
something that started as a kindof like naive university project

(01:08:36):
is arriving to a place likeMemorial Da America Latina. So
I do think that when you dosomething that you can impact
within your own neighborhood.And many of the projects I've
done, they always been with verylike limited budget and kind of
like, kind of like doingcrowdfunding and fundraising and
applying to brands and thenhaving to adapt them to the

(01:08:58):
actual grants we get. Andsometimes you can have an
impact, like, not with muchreally, because working with
recycled materials is quitecheap and and a lot of
participants that they need,people like actually doing
engagement projects. Sosometimes you can do something

(01:09:18):
with not a very large budget. Sothat's one thing I think it's
important, is like trying to dosomething that for you is
meaningful and that it couldhave an impact within your own
environment, even because evenif you can just have an impact
in one person, it will achievesomething. And then the other
thing is that I do think thatthe arts has the power of

(01:09:43):
allowing us to imagine betterfutures in dark times. And
optimism is something that keepus going when we're going
through very difficult periodsof life or trauma, and that's
why I think it has this veryimportant role. All within
society, but one of the I don'tknow if stilled exhibition going

(01:10:03):
on, but last week, I went tovisit Manifest exhibition,
curated by a classmate from Central St Martins, Stephen
Bennett, who works at theMinistry of Science in the
government, and he has a projectcalled Policy Lab, where they
have been using like artsartists process within the kind

(01:10:24):
of like civil service policy, toactually see what can arts
contribute to policy making. Andthis exhibition was at Somerset
House, and it was actually quiteinteresting to see how many of
the artistic processes wouldmake the policy makers think

(01:10:47):
differently about the way theyapproach stats? So I think that
many times the art has thecapacity of raising qualitative
data that you don't see in thequantitative data that normally
is being used by politicians.And part of this detachment, I

(01:11:08):
think it has to do with the factthat we are measuring everything
with numbers and leaving quiteaside sometimes the emotional
side of things and thequalitative data. So I strongly
think that projects like the onethat Stephen is doing and the
amazing work that many artistsare doing in their own
communities, contributes to thewell being of communities.

(01:11:30):
Actually, there was just anarticle in one of the latest
newsletters of the Arts Councilthat I'm subscribed to, speaking
about the how Arts has an impacton the emotional well being of
communities, and I think that'sone of our big challenges for
the 21st century with artificialintelligence and how we're kind

(01:11:52):
of like lacking each day, moreof human contact. And I do think
that that's why, one of thereasons why I'm doing lots of
participatory projects, becauseI thought, I strongly believe
that the arts has a role onwhat's bringing communities
together to process collectivetrauma and also like to do as a

(01:12:12):
space of sharing. Yeah,
absolutely. And I thinkeverything you've discussed
today really illustrates notonly the power of possibility
that the arts can afford, butthe importance of literally
weaving ourselves together. Thesocial cohesion of a community
is the health of that communityand that society. You've spoken

(01:12:37):
so brilliantly well on so manythings today. Tere, I really
can't thank you enough for yourtime. It's such an interesting
window of work that you'recreating to encourage us all to
widen our thinking and to bemore curious even about how we

(01:12:58):
think. I'd also like to thankthe listeners, of course, for
joining us, and please doremember to share this episode
or the entire free to listenseries and help make the arts
all of ours. But once again,Tere, thank you so much for all
your time today.
Thanks to you, Paula, for theinvitation. It's really an

(01:13:21):
honor, and it's always very wellreceived, because every project
takes such big effort, that'sreally nice. When you get to
speak with someone who's reallyinterested on the impact that
the work can have. Oh
no, it's an absolute pleasure.The recognition of your work is
so important. I'm only toopleased to share it. Thank you
again,
thanks, bye, bye.

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