May 4, 2022 • 63 mins
Lady Kitt is a creative activist, artist, maker and drag king, described as ‘an international superstar of feminism.’ You may also encounter Kitt as Captain Privilege or as King Kitt, a terminally confused, toxic male. Kitt’s practice however as a socially engaged artist is crystal clear. From performance art to giant origami, Kitt addresses inequality and inclusivity and creates projects all over the world. We talk about socially engaged art as acts of compassion and failures in social provision as acts of harm. We talk about art as a collaborative heartbeat but not a cure all for community regeneration led by poor policy. We explore curiosity as mess and the structures of support we need for courage.
Images: Courtesy of Lady Kitt.
Headshot PlentyUpTop (Colour photo, interior. Head and shoulders portrait of Kitt, a white shaven headed human. Kitt is smiling a wide smile. They wear a headdress which, in bright pink 3D letters, reads "Plenty Up Top". They also wear a necklace which, in the same pink lettering, reads "Gallery". 2019)
Headshot QueerCripCraftPower (Colour photo, interior. Kitt, white haven headed human with a big smile wears a headdress made of huge multi coloured flowers and a black long sleeved shirt on which white and orange text reads “queer crip craft power”. 2021)
Audio edit courtesy of Katherine Wiley.
Series music: Created by and courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can be found here: https://www.canartsaveus.com
Discover Lady Kitt: https://www.lladykitt.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? In this series, I'mtalking to artists, musicians,
filmmakers, actors, art lovers,and other creatives. I'm
exploring how curiosity andcourage not only creates great
art and fuels the art butcultivates a healthy mind too. The
(00:23):
same attitudes are cultivated inmindfulness practice with
scientific and evidence basedresults in the treatment of
depression, stress and anxiety.So I'm asking, Can art save us
and help change the globalepidemic of mental wellness? And
my guest this week is a creativeactivist Lady Kitt, an artist,
(00:46):
maker and drag king, described asan 'international superstar of
feminism.' You may also encounterKitt as Captain Privilege, or
King Kitt, a terminally confused,toxic, male. Kitt's practice,
however, as a socially engagedartist is crystal clear. From
performance art to giant origami, Kit addresses inequality and
(01:08):
inclusivity, creating projectsall over the world. To say Kitt
is hard working doesn't evencome close. Kit, hello, and
thank you again, because youtruly are the busiest artist I
know of.
Thank you. Thanks so much forhaving me. It's lovely. I'm
(01:30):
dead excited to have this chat.
That's lovely. Well, kitt tobegin with when I was looking
at all of your work, I realizedI could also introduce you, and
this is using some of your ownwords, as a 'human with an
insatiable curiosity, who likesmess making, and a healthy dose
(01:51):
of mischievousness,' and Ireally liked that. So I just
wondered, is that allabout crafting human
connections? What is it you'retelling us?
Yeah, it's just everything, everything I do is really driven
by an interest in how beingcreative can help us to have more
(02:19):
fun, interesting, satisfyingconnections. And that's really
that's what I'm super, superinterested in. I guess,
sometimes looking at the workthat I do, it looks like a big
plate of spaghetti with allthese different bits, all
together like that. And it lookslike a bit of a mess from a
(02:40):
point of view of like, oh,what's going on, there's there's
paper, and then there's, youknow, recycled flowers, and
there's an opera and thenthere's a drag king, and like
there's all these differentthings going on. But being
inside of that it doesn't feelvery sort of chaotic or
confusing. It feels quite clearto me like what I'm interested
in doing. And I guess because collaboration is essential to what
(03:05):
I do, I work with loads ofdifferent people and the stuff
that we end up doing, as part ofour investigations into how we
can act creatively is hugelyinfluenced by those people. So I
ended up doing stuff that Iwould never have thought of
doing myself and that use skillsthat I don't have any of because
(03:28):
I'm interested in like workingwith other people, and what do
they want to do. And I guessthat's why a lot of the projects
that I'm involved in, can lookvery different from the outside,
you know, like creating amagazine, or trying to encourage
a record office to have moreLGBTQ history there, or writing
(03:50):
a folk song and these thingsthat might often seem quite
disconnected, they all come fromthis real interest in where,
and how does creativity helpus to connect to people in more
interesting, fun, useful,satisfying ways?
Yeah, I mean, it is wonderful and when people increasingly see
(04:15):
the breadth of your work, whichwill be signposted with this
podcast, it really isimpressive. And I really do love
your use of the word mess andthe richness of creative
collaboration because would yousay, mess is a form of
curiosity? Oh,
(04:36):
I never thought about it likethat. I really like that
phrase. Yeah. I think for me, Iguess it's a, it's a natural
thing that happens. It can be atool, but it can also be a
product of that curiosity.And if in investigations where
(04:57):
there's not room for that sortof awkwardness and the chaos
and the mess, I just feel likethere's well, I suppose it's
like there's a lack of honestyabout an investigation that
doesn't make room for thatstuff. So if you plan an
(05:17):
investigation as much as you canplan an investigation and you don't think
where is uncomfortableness andawkwardness and mess going to
fit into that? And how are wegoing to make room for that? But
then also how can we build toolsto sort of navigate that and
(05:37):
manage that in healthy ways,then I just feel like that it's
setting itself up to probably bequite disasterous. So I suppose
either to be like reallydisastrous, or just to be not
very useful. And and to be morelike, an idea of an
investigation as opposed to anactual real scrummaging around
(05:59):
trying to find stuff out.
Yeah, so there's strategic planning,
that's relevant, you know,learning outcomes, perhaps. I'm,
I'm interested in how you mightreflect on your curiosity as a
child, maybe there wassomeone who was instrumental in
(06:22):
developing that, or were youjust naturally curious? I'm
really interested in if you wereto wind back where you think
that maybe all all began?
Yeah, I guess like everything.It's a bit of both, isn't it? So
some, some stuff that's just inthere and then some stuff
that's been kind of observedfrom from an early age? Yeah,
(06:44):
there's loads of things that asa child probably contributed to
that, I guess, my granny was, Iwas such such good pals with my
granny, I absolutely loved her. Imean, we had loads of
disagreements about stuff but yeah,we had, we had a really good
relationship. And she was avery, like, I would describe her
(07:09):
as, like very gossipy, I guessand that was about, for
me, that was about curiosity.She was just like, sort of,
overwhelmingly curious about therelationships that people near
her had. So that was like,primarily her family, but then
(07:30):
also kind of her local communityand stuff. And she just invested
huge amounts of time and energyinto finding out about that, and
knowing what people were doingall of the time, and everything.
And, and there was some reallyrubbish stuff about that. And
she could be very judgmentalabout things since she found out
those sort of investigations.But also, there's some lovely
(07:51):
stuff about that. And she was,you know, like the person that
other people in the community inthe family went to if they needed
a bit of information aboutsomething, and she was just a
very easy person to talk to. SoI would go and stay with her
quite often. And she lived abouta 12 minute walk maybe from her
local shops. And we would, itwould take us three hours to get
(08:14):
there and back because she wouldjust talk to every single
person, and she would know likewhat they were doing and what
their grandchildren were up to,and how was their dog like, oh,
yeah, so I guess I just, I lovedher and, and sort of looked up
to her in some ways, althoughalso not in a totally uncritical
(08:35):
way, like I said, and I really,love the fact that she
was so great at chatting topeople basically. And because
she asked loads of questions andhad this kind of like open
interest, people would tell her,like astounding stuff, you
know, she knew things aboutpeople that probably their
(08:57):
families didn't know about them.And because she just had this
kind of open interest. And people felt comfortable to talk
to her and tell her this stuff.So I guess that's a really big
influence in that, in that kindof curiosity. But also, I guess,
an influence in the not so greatstuff,
(09:18):
I can run with that as well as,as well as the good stuff.
And I suppose, quite a sense ofresponsibility about where you
take the things that you findout in these investigations. And
I think that's quite a big partof the way that I work now, and
also just practically takes upquite a lot of the time that I
(09:38):
have to dedicate to work isthinking about, well, I guess
the ethics really of beingcurious and like if you create
situations that give people andmake people feel comfortable to
say things that they need to saysome of which might be quite
sensitive and difficult, thenwhat's my responsibility
(10:00):
as a person who's part offacilitating that, how do I
create structures that mean,that's not just an exploitative
thing, and I'm not basicallylike mining people for their
experiences, and then justtaking those experiences away
and doing some
art with them. Like that, thatmight make people feel really
(10:22):
uncomfortable and upset. And youknow, there's, there's so much,
there are so many things thatneed to be really deeply
considered, and so muchcommunicating that needs to go
on around that. And I guessthat's, well not I guess that is
a really, really big part of theway that I work thinking about,
Oh, how do we how do we managethat?
(10:44):
It's just wonderful what you'vebeen able to share. I mean, I
think that role of you know,that your your grandma played in
openness, curiosity as a form ofopenness and connectedness and
you know, you're very aware ofthe importance of human
connection. And it seems that,you know, that's been probably
(11:10):
quite a fundamental influence toyou. But what I really love is
that it's also highlighting howimportant trust is in that
relationship. The fact thatpeople could share all of those
stories, clearly demonstrates,there was very deep trust. And
(11:30):
it seems to me that trust is ahuge responsibility you are also
working with now as an artist,and particularly as a socially
engaged artist, I wondered ifyou might like to share how
that's maybe increasingly becominga responsibility in your work?
(11:55):
Yeah, I think the reallystraightforward answer to that
is, is that it hasn'tincreasingly become a
responsibility it always has been aresponsibility but I've become
more aware of it, and better atmanaging it. So thinking about
when I started making work inthese ways, I wasn't as aware of
(12:18):
of these things and I didn'thave systems and structures in
place, or even think that I sortof needed them to, to keep
people safe, including myself.So it's been a it's been a long
and in bits, incredibly tortureprocess, to get to the point
(12:38):
where I can, I can sort ofmanage those things. And also, I
suppose one of the things iswhere I could have a
conversation like this with you.Because one of the things, one
of the sort of things that'shappened in that time, and you
know, through those discoveries,and those sometimes really dreadful
experiences, is that one of themost important things is being
(13:04):
able to be straightforward aboutthis stuff. But that's also
incredibly difficult and it'svery vulnerable, to be able to
talk about this stuff, it'svery, you know, I have to put
myself in in a vulnerableposition to be able to talk
about it. But I'm also expectinga lot of vulnerability from the
(13:24):
people that I work alongside.And I think that, that,
probably, that's been one of thebiggest, most useful things in
that process of getting to thepoint where I have a better
understanding of how importantthis is. And that it's always
been really important but I'venow gotten to a point where I'm
(13:46):
kind of, I feel like I'm betterat managing that it's just going
Do you know what? I have to putmyself in that incredibly
uncomfortable situation again,and again, and again, of saying,
I'm really uncomfortable aboutthis. I don't really know what's
going to happen, it might besome of these things. How do you
(14:07):
feel about that? I'm like,share, I guess sharing a lot of
how I feel about things, butthen also sharing a lot of the
power, I suppose of how thingshappen. And being upfront about
that. And not expecting that Ishould make all the decisions
(14:30):
but also not creating asituation where I expect other
people to make all the decisionswithout support to be able to do
that in a way that is accessiblefor them and makes them feel
comfortable.
Yeah, I mean, it's anincredible amount of things to
think about, isn't it? In termsof responsibility,
(14:50):
responsibility to yourself andparticularly around safeguarding
and in an inclusion for example,vulnerability is very core, it
seems to the work of artists,and especially yours. I guess
(15:11):
you might feel vulnerable as aperformance artist. You know, we
can talk about, you know, KingKitt striding on stage but
you're behind that, thatpersona, that character, you
know, how does that really feel?That's one form of exposure,
isn't it and as you weresaying, the vulnerability that
(15:33):
you experience when you'reactually taking care of other
people that are involved in anevent or creative activity
you're managing. How do youmanage your sense of
vulnerability? How do you keepgoing?
Again, it's been a, it's been aseries of really hard learn lessons.
(15:56):
So yeah, really difficult,complicated times. And I think
the main thing is that,understanding how important it
is to have different types ofsupport networks around you. So
I think when I first startedmaking this kind of work and
like working within thesekinds of approaches, I guess, I
(16:19):
probably had some good friendsaround me who I could blow off a
bit of emotional steam with. Butnot many of them worked in
similar ways to the way that Idid. So a lot of the stuff was
just like, Oh, poor you, yeah,that sounds really rotten. Which
(16:40):
is great and it's reallyimportant. And I think, you
know, I still need that. But Ialso needed people who could do
that, and go, Oh, yeah, when Iwas in a situation a bit like
that, this is what I did. Oryou know, that artists,
when they were talking aboutsomething a bit like that, why
don't you go and look at theirwork or have a chat with them,
(17:00):
or whatever. Or just reallypractical things like, here is a
session plan that will help youplan around supporting pupils
mental health better, orwhatever it is. And so for a
long time, I just didn't reallyhave that bit of, of the support
network. And I, there was oneproject I did that was just
(17:23):
spectacularly dreadfully, it fell topieces in a really awful way, it
was horrendous for loads andloads of the people who were
involved, including me. And Igot to the point where I
thought, Oh, I don'tknow if I can do this anymore.
Actually, this is just, this istoo much. Yeah, so while I was
(17:43):
licking my wounds from that, Ithought, no, actually, I
probably still can do this. ButI do need to do it in a really
different way. And then how am Igoing to approach this in a
different way, that means Idon't lead myself and other
people into the situations thatled to that project being so,
(18:04):
so difficult. And so as part ofthat, I thought, I need to be
chatting to other artists whowork in some kind of similar way
so that we can share theemotional stuff, but also that
like the dead dead practicalstuff, and had this idea of
setting up something that wecall a Social Practice Surgery,
(18:27):
which is basically just to chat,a chance for people who work in
these ways to get together andhave a good old chat in complete
confidence, and get some stuffoff their chest, but also, like,
share some, some useful things.
(18:50):
And I think I thinkit'd be good for other types of
work as well. Like, I don't, Idon't think it's just social
practice artists who need thatthing. You know, I think like,
police officers might need itand lawyers. Yeah. Like all
sorts of social workers mightneed that kind of that kind of
(19:12):
structure. Yeah, so I've done a fewsessions. And then about that
time, I started a project withan artist called Dan Russell,
and was chatting to him aboutit. And then we ended up
thinking, Oh, actually, maybethere's something that we could
do together. So now we run thosesessions together. And there's
(19:33):
like the sort of the kind ofcycle of each of those sessions
like preparing for it and thendelivering the session and then
like debriefing after them. Butthen there's also this kind of
longer arc over the top of thatof how Dan and I talk about our
practice together, but also allthe other stuff that we're doing
(19:54):
separately, that is connected tothat Social Practice Surgery,
but then there's also loads ofdifferent seperate things and
all of those things have endedup being a really substantial
part of providing that stuffthat I needed to be able to
manage that and to do that inkind of healthier ways. So I
guess that's one of the things.And then one of the other things
(20:15):
is that I'm involved in theSocial Art Network, which is a UK
network for social practiceartists, I think it's about 11
or 12 hubs around the UK. And wehave regular meetings, and we're
working towards a big eventtogether in November. And that's
also provided loads and loads ofopportunities to connect with
(20:36):
people who were, who were workingin similar ways and to share that
brilliant stuff but alsoshare the really
complicated stuff.
It's really, really interesting,because it seems, I mean, it's
such a great idea, the surgeries, because it seems
you've identified thatdifference between empathy and
(20:58):
compassion, which isincreasingly discussed, as
empathy recognizes feelings ofsympathy and concern, but it's
actually compassion that has theactive role. And then you
started to describe that, youknow, you could come up with
(21:21):
different mechanisms and ideas,and those, those are kind of
active inputs into how somebodycan deliver a project or keep
going. And that seems,you know, just so essential, and
what your surgeries appear to bedoing is driving empathy into a
more active state.
(21:42):
Oh, that's really fascinating.I've not heard, yeah,
I've not heard that. I've notheard those things described in
that way before. Yeah. Talk tome a little bit more about that,
because I'm interested in howthat's reflected back through the
surgery.
Yeah, for sure. Because I, Irecently attended a course an
(22:05):
online course with theCompassion Institute, who are
based in LA. And the CompassionInstitute is informed by, you
know, spiritual leaders, Buddhists,neuroscientists, psychologists,
all collaborating, aroundand wellbeing, but also
(22:28):
the significance of, of howwellbeing impacts the wellbeing
of a community of a society. Andit was through that course, that
this emphasis became clear thatthere was more and more
understanding through deliberatestudy of what the difference of
empathy and compassion is. Andso, you know, that's a very
(22:52):
simplified explanation, butit points to the difference of
empathy, being if you like, youknow, emotionally considerate,
but a passive state. Andcompassion actually, is where
the action happens. So, byunderstanding this, we can all
(23:14):
learn to think about how we canbecome more compassionately
active. So you might find thatinteresting, I can send you
links. That's really, reallyfascinating and obviously, I'm
just hearing about this now. Soit's all new ideas moving
around. But I, I can definitelysee how understanding more about
(23:38):
that could feed into the socialimpact of surgeries and
loads of the different thingsthat I'm interested in.
Yeah, and yet, you talkingabout your surgery idea, to me,
is already delivering that, youseem to have instinctively found
your way to that. That's what'sinteresting to me. So you're
(23:59):
asking me about what I'velearned, but I'm already hearing
from you that, that's what youunderstand. Ah, so I just don't
have this
language to talk about it.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, reallyinteresting. And, of course,
interesting, because, of course,as a socially engaged artist,
(24:20):
you clearly are veryinterested in compassionate
action, you know, or action thathelps the community and
individuals. We have previouslyspoken about how art projects
are increasingly plugging holesin social provision and I
wondered if, you know, for ourlisteners, if you'd like to add
(24:42):
some context to that. Yeah.
I suppose, I guess maybe as partof this, it's good to talk a
little bit about where sociallyengaged art has come from and
all the different things that itgets called and stuff so you
know what is considered to besocially engaged art. It has been
(25:02):
going on for ever, like hundreds1000s of years and has existed
in a huge variety of forms withloads and loads of different
names. Community Art,participatory practice, teaching
artistry, loads andloads of different things that
like working in these kinds ofways get called. And, and
(25:26):
sort of thinking about thehistory of that, in this
country. I guess over the last40 years, maybe there's been an
increasing pressure on artistsinvolved in these ways of
working to create projects todeliver work that plugs holes
(25:52):
in services. And, you know,to the point where you get
call outs, that's that sort ofspecifically say, we want an
artists who wants to work withcommunities to think about how
people who or Idon't know, I can't, I can't
(26:14):
even think of an example, butlike to work with this very
specific group who are dealingwith a very specific, very
complicated thing in theirlives. And then through the
magic of art, to sort of sortthat out. And it's, it really
is, you know, these call outsare really kind of framed like
(26:35):
that as if magically, with fivegrand, and one overworked and
disparate group of people whoall share some experience, but
also have vastly differentexperiences in other ways, can
be brought together over thecourse of three months to like,
magically sort out this reallycomplicated thing. Yeah, and
(26:59):
it's, I mean, it's just thatwe're both laughing about it,
because it is just so utterlyridiculous. But the problem is
that because it's framed likethat, artists feel like they
need to contextualize the stuffthat happens within those
projects in that way. And, andagain, I guess this comes back
(27:21):
to the mess and failure andawkwardness, there's no room to
talk about those things. There'sno room to talk about the fact
that the call out was ridiculousin the first place. To talk
about the fact that the reasonthat these kinds of projects are
needed and wanted is becausethere's like just horrific lack
(27:46):
of provision for so manydifferent things. There's no
room to talk about the fact thatgoing through that process with
people will be extremelybeautiful and amazing and
joyful, but also reallycomplicated, it can be very
upsetting for a lot of peopleinvolved. And there is no, within
the frame of those type ofprojects, there's no space for
(28:07):
any of that stuff to be talkedabout in a straightforward
direct way, or to be kind ofshown to people who haven't been
really directly involved. And itjust leads to this really
disingenuous horrible thingwhere artists feel like they
have to say, oh, yeah, withthat, five grand in those three
(28:28):
months, we did manage to sortthis out, jazz hands! And it
just creates this sort ofperpetual wheel of
dishonesty, which is rubbish.And then some of the things that
happen, like within that are theidea that funding bodies think
that, like those kinds oftransformational things can
(28:51):
happen in three months, which isludicrous, you know, that they
just can't, you can barely getto know a group in three months,
let alone, you know, dosomething sort of world changing
together. So thatjust perpetuates,because artists
feedback and say, Oh, we didmanage to do all this in three
months, those funders keepgoing, Oh, well, we'll just keep
(29:13):
offering like three monthsthings then and that's fine.
Which means that some of thoseprojects where an artist has a
long term relationship with agroup are just funded piecemeal,
by these tiny, little pots ofmoney, which obviously there's
loads of admin that goes intothat. So lots of time spent
doing the admin as opposed toactually just getting on with
(29:35):
doing the art and you know,helping people to have a good
time and sharing skills and likeall of that brilliant stuff.
And then the other thing thathappens is that some artists
don't want to or not able to forwhatever reasons or there just
isn't other resources around tokeep those things going. So
(29:56):
those projects are just threemonths and in those three
months when it comes together,they start building
relationships, they feel like,oh, actually, I am starting to
feel quite confident about this,I'm love my Tuesday
afternoons or whatever it is,and then the commission ends and
the money runs out, and there'snothing. And then that community
(30:18):
is left feeling really oftendisappointed, and often really
cross. And sometimes that goestowards like the funders and the
wider structures, but sometimesthat goes directly to the artist
and to art. So then the nexttime there is for some reason,
some money or whatever, for anartist to be able to work with
(30:40):
the same or a similar group,that group quite rightly goes,
no, the last person you came,got was all excited, we were
going to do all this brilliantstuff together, we were having a
great time every Tuesday, andthen they just disappeared and
we feel rubbish about it. Sowe're not putting ourselves in
that really vulnerable positionwith you again, thanks very
(31:00):
much, quite rightly, like, ofcourse. And yeah, so it just
creates these horrible, horriblecycles for artists and for
people who are getting involvedin these type of projects
incredibly disappointing atbest, but like really kind of
devastating and damaging atworst. Yeah. Which
(31:21):
is really serious, because ofcourse, this points to something
we raised earlier,which is the role of trust in
these relationships. And itseems that whilst we're talking
about curiosity and courage inrelation to the arts, the
(31:42):
funders, the policymakers, anddefinitely the government could
do with a big old dose of whatcuriosity encourages, because
there's that complete lack ofunderstanding isn't there about
all of the issues you'reraising? You know, that
they need to become more curiousabout what it is that they're
(32:05):
making decisions about andsetting the terms of policy or
funding for? What are the chancesKitt? What are the chances do
you think of that shifthappening? Yeah, I
don't I don't know aboutchances, from that point of view,
like, yeah, Ithink it's, it's vital for it to
(32:30):
happen, whether it does happenor when it happens, like, who
knows. But one of the, I supposeover the last four years, I've
been more and more interested innot only in cultural policy, but
how actually projects like theprojects that I do, and
approaches, like the approachesthat I use, can be part of
(32:51):
making policy. So not only howcan policy change to accommodate
these increasingly, like popularways of working, but how can
working in these ways, be partof actually building those
policies in themselves. Andquite a lot of the work that
I've done recently is, isrelated to that. And that
started really organicallybecause I found that one of the
(33:15):
things that was happening withgroups and communities that I
was working with were was policychange. So a project would be
happening, and then there wouldbe a sort of conundrum or a
difficulty or something wouldcome up. And then someone would
say, Oh, well, part of theproblem with this is that we
(33:35):
don't have a, well, we maybe wedon't have any safer spaces
policy, for example, or thecyberspace policy that we have
is rubbish, or it was reallygood, but it's not fit for what
we do anymore. So let's go andsort that out. And then,
that would, the project would kindkind of start a series of
(33:57):
conversations where that wouldbe fascinating. And that
happened quite a few times. AndI was like, Oh, that's so
fascinating, isn't it? And andactually, why am I just being
vaguely interested by the factthat happened, when maybe
there's a possibility that aproject could be started on
(34:17):
purpose, to try and make some ofthose changes? Yeah, so that's,
that's been an increasinginterest over the last few
years. And I suppose an exampleof that is a project that I'm
working on at the moment, calledFraming Social Practice
Collections. And that again,sort of very organically came
(34:38):
about because I was doing twoprojects that were in some ways
quite similar. So they're bothsocially engaged residencies
and they both had the potentialfor some of the stuff that
happened in the project to becollected at the end. So one of
them waswith a local recordsoffice, Warwickshire County
(34:58):
Records Office in the Midlandsand one with Durham University
and their Durham University Artcollection. And through that
process, I was just learningloads about what a collection is
how different collections aremanaged, you know, yeah, some of
the policies that didn't seem atall compatible to like, take
(35:19):
collecting and looking afterwork that's generated through
social art projects. And I wasthinking well I'm
learning loads, I bet there areother people who probably be
quite interested in some of thisstuff. So I applied for some
extra funding from Arts CouncilEngland to specifically think
about that stuff that I waslearning, and maybe ways of, of
(35:40):
sharing that. So I'm kind ofcoming towards the end now of
like, a six, seven monthproject, where I've been taking
the stuff that I learned throughthose two projects, but then
also talking to other people inother collections and other
artists in groups about how thismight affect what they do. And
so there's a, there's a part ofthat, which is just how
(36:04):
practically, how can policychange, to be able to accommodate
eople like waysof working particularly, like
collaborative ways of working?But then also, how can, by
collections welcoming in thiswork, how can that structurally
(36:24):
change organizations andinstitutions from the inside?
And from the projects that I'vebeen involved in so far, it
seems really, a really welcomedapproach. And people, you know,
people in institutions andorganizations are often really
aware that the policies theyhave are written by people who
(36:46):
are good at writing policies,but who aren't necessarily that
affected by the things that areheld in those documents and actually,
loads of people who, who wereinvolved in those processes are
really keen to, to chat topeople and to work alongside
people who, who will be reallyaffected by those
(37:08):
decisions, but maybe aren'tquite sure how that could work.
And so some of these socialapproaches have seemed really
dead useful in that.
Yeah, it's just so important, it's just so critical. You know,
what you're acknowledging that,you know, it's all very well,
(37:29):
isn't it to place what can feellike a burden on artists, could
you please regenerate this city,could you please rehabilitate
the UK? Here's 2,500 pounds, andwe'd like that sorted out in 10
days, but thatabsurdity, you know, it really
(37:50):
does exist. And, and I know thatyou've said previously, you
know, the damage that hasgenuinely happened in the UK,
you know, your experience of itin terms of people arriving at
your art events or creativeevents, who also need
(38:11):
signposting, asking is there a foodbank near here, I need some help
with understanding my housingissue, you know, so there's
been this wider role in animposed social responsibility
that isn't necessarilyappropriate, because you're
absorbing even more risk. Andthat brings me to a quote,
(38:35):
actually, from Brene Brown, whoyou may be aware of, she's a
research professor who's hugelysuccessful with
her TED talks on YouTube,because she has studied things
like vulnerability. But here'sthis description of
(38:56):
vulnerability from Brene Brown,and she says 'vulnerability can
be understood as uncertaintyrisk, and emotional exposure.'
And I was interested in whatyour reflections on that were,
in view of everything we'vewe've talked about so far.
(39:16):
Is that like, on my experiences ofvulnerability, or on kind of, I
guess, like the functions ofvulnerability or bit of all of
that?
Yeah, that's a good point.That's a really good point.
Maybe both, I'd be interestedin your own experiences as a
(39:37):
socially engaged artist. So itmight be the vulnerability you
witness but also equally thevulnerability you experience
because of things like you know,it's one thing you're performance
artists, I mean, I'd die offright if I had to get onto a
stage you know, that'svulnerability right there
but also, there's alsovulnerability in what you do.
(40:00):
Because of your awareness ofthis, not just social
engagement, but this growing,changing, shifting social
responsibility that shouldn'treally be imposed onto you
or to the artists.
Yeah, I don't, I've got so many,there's so many different
pockets of what I might want totalk about.
(40:22):
I did, I did consider
an independent series justcalled you know, Can save us
by Kitt.
Okay, I suppose thething that I'd probably most
(40:44):
like to talk about is as opposedto specific vulnerabilities or
examples, or whatever, may bemore like the function of
vulnerability in the kind ofsettings that I work in, and the
(41:05):
enormous value of that. So Italk a lot about creative
intimacies in my work, and thoseexist along a sort of scale.
From very, very close intimaciesto sort of quite vague
intimacies. And they are, butnone of them along any point in
(41:33):
that scale, are possible withoutsome vulnerability happening.
And everyone involved needs tobe able to offer a little bit of
that, to really make thosecreative intimacies work and
happen and be sort of genuine.Yeah. So it's something that I
(41:58):
think about loads in, in mywork. And it's a really, it's a
constant balance. And Idefinitely, the way that I
approach it now is reallydifferent to the way that I used
to approach it. And I think,when I started out, I, I always
thought that the situations thatI invite people into can be
(42:20):
quite vulnerable, and they canmake people feel quite
vulnerable. And my approach thatwhen I started out was, so I
have to not be that myself. So Ihave to be this like, ultimately
calm in control, have an answerto everything, like sort of,
(42:41):
really, I guess, guiding the,the whole process. And then I
was like, that it's reallyimportant that I can do that.
And that's what I've helpedpeople to have a good time and
feel comfortable, and all ofthat stuff. And to some extent,
that was right. And that doeshelp quite a lot of people to do
that. It wasn't massivelyhelpful for me. And also, there
(43:03):
are a lot of people who thatjust didn't work for you. And as
I've sort of developed the waythat I work, and change the way
that I work, and I've actuallyfound that making space for me
being vulnerable, as well asreally important. And there's a
really fine line between doingthat and just completely taking
(43:26):
a facilitator and really takingover with that, and then not
making space for other people.And, yeah, so doing it
appropriately so that everybodygets an opportunity to do that.
And I think a lot of that aswell has been influenced by
ideas of non hierarchicalworking, and really trying to
dismantle this idea that likethe artist comes in, and they've
(43:49):
organized this thing. And, and Ijust less and less feel like
that and more and more feel likehave a structure, that
people have enough of astructure so people can
understand what they'reinitially getting themselves
into. And then once we're all inthat, together, what happens
from that is, is really up toall of us to try and make happen
(44:12):
together. And some of the stuffthat I need in that is that I
need an opportunity to bevulnerable. So I need to think
about structures that alloweverybody else in that situation
to know that about me and for usto build ways for us to support
each other for that to happen,as opposed to me just being this
(44:33):
person who kind of has thisoverview and just makes it all
happen and is like slightlyremoved from it. And that's just
that's changed loads and loadsof things over, over the time that
I've been working. And I feelreally comfortable about that.
And I feel like the projectsthat I do are more interesting
(44:54):
and more accessible, morewelcoming, more useful, more
fun because of thoseapproaches.
Yeah, is it thoseapproaches and structures that
make you brave enough to embracebeing vulnerable?
Yeah, that's definitely part ofit. I think a big part of it was
(45:17):
just getting over myself. Like,initially, it was just, you
know, like a sort of terror ofgoing, you know, this is
actually me, and I am worriedabout some stuff. And, and yeah,
and some of that was justpersonal. But you're right. Once
I got over that, the stuffthat's allowed me to continue
(45:38):
doing it and do it in a healthyway, is having those kinds of
structures and systems. Yeah, sothat it doesn't just spiral out
of control, and so thateverybody has an opportunity to
be involved in thoseinteractions. And it's not just
solely focused on one person orone sort of set of people.
Yeah. Something I, I'minterested in reflecting on in
(46:01):
the introduction, when Imentioned that we could also
encounter you as King Kitt, aterminally confused, toxic male,
I wanted to return to that,because that's also not, you
know, just pointing the finger.I like that you have also
provided a description of thatas being 'comically manly', because
(46:28):
you're highlighting what can be'dangerously macho and
devastatingly vulnerable'. So Iactually think, or that tells
me that the character ismotivated by kindness as well.
Yeah, I really, I really hopeso. Because I feel like I think
(46:50):
especially with my experiencesof being involved in social
justice organizations andmovements over the years,
there's, there's an idea thatthere's a sort of sinfulness in
privilege, and that people whohave certain types of privilege
and specifically straight maleprivilege have to kind of atone
(47:13):
for that in a very sort of publicway. So, like, there are
these kinds of, yeah, ideasabout people like sort of self
flagellation of the privilege.And I, I can totally understand
how that happens. Like, I cansee how that happens. But also,
(47:36):
I just think it's reallyunhelpful, and often also really
cruel. And so I hope that,through that character, it's
obvious that I am playing withand being ridiculous and kind of
often really clowny with some ofthose ways that masculinity
(47:58):
like, yeah, happens, and, andyeah, demonstrates itself to the
world. But I hope that withinthat people do see that real
tenderness. And thatunderstanding that a lot of
these things come from having areally difficult,
(48:18):
dreadful time. And yeah, thereare massive, massive privileges
in being a straight white dude.But also, there were really
difficult, awful things aboutthat. And one of the things that
is difficult about that is beingturned into this sort of
bogeyman, for a lot of peoplewho have different experiences.
(48:39):
And I just, I think, the newlight specifically in a social
justice movement context, I'veseen over and over again, really
horrible things happen becauseof that. And also just really,
well, only useful thingshappening. Because as soon as
you start having those divisionswithin what should be a
(49:04):
collaborative movement, it juststops functioning. And so we
need and again, I guess it'sgoing back to being awkward and
uncomfortable and messy andhaving really difficult sort of
nuanced conversations. If, as agroup of people, we're going to
change the things that we feellike we really need to change
and I guess one of those thingsfor me is, you know, trying to
(49:27):
get to a point where we'reexisting in a less climate
disasterous you know, way,like a less climate disastrous
way of existing. That is notgoing to be solved by excluding
certain people or invitingpeople in but then just giving
them a certain pocket where theyhave to go and sit and be quiet
(49:49):
because they're too privilegedto say anything. And that that's
just not going to help people towork together in really A lot of
straightforward, complicated,straightforward and complicated
and open ways. And we're justnot going to fix any of these
things that we know desperatelyneed fixing. Yeah, so I guess a
(50:13):
lot of the stuff with theKing Kitt characters and Captain
Privilege and all of those, all the drag stuff, is me
finding ways to think and talkabout all of that stuff, which
is incredibly difficult. Andlike, having this conversation
with you now, I feel quitevulnerable because I know there
are a lot of people who willwildly disagree with this stuff
(50:35):
and will be really offended byit. And it's so, it's very, very
complicated and it's, it feels,yeah, very, feels very
vulnerable to have thoseconversations. And so I guess
that's where turning theconversations into a series of
(50:57):
performances and to a series ofcharacters, makes that a bit
easier, makes it a bit easier forme but hopefully, it makes it
easier for people who mightexperience it as well, and less
confrontational.
Yeah, it's I mean, it seems tome that you are incredibly
brave. And I know, we've talkedabout, you know, structures and
(51:18):
approaches, being part of whatcan give you the courage with
some of your, you know, artisticdelivery. But nevertheless, it's
still interesting, where braverycomes from, which might be
something you want to to reflecton. But it also goes back for me
(51:41):
to what seems to be a hugelyintelligent understanding of
compassion, that yourperformance work is an act of
compassionate action. How doesthat feel when you view
your own work in those terms?
(52:06):
Yeah, it's really lovelyto hear you say that. And I
probably haven't really thoughtabout it quite like that before.
But it's really, yeah, it'sextremely gratifying to hear
some user experience from theoutside to like, reflect it back
(52:26):
in that way. And that feelsreally, it feels really great.
And I guess it feels likesomething to aim for as well.
And to maybe like when I'mworking on these things to
think, oh, how can, how can thiswork being more that? Yeah,
because I probably haven'tarticulated the ambition
(52:48):
specifically in that way. Butyou've definitely tapped
into something that is really,really important. And like,
yeah, giving it a really nicephrase. Yeah, definitely.
Good, deservedly Kitt. Amongstall of your work, something that
stood out to me recently, it wasan image of some paper cut outs
(53:11):
that you had created of words,posing the question, What can
art change today? And I wasreally interested in what some
of the responses were to that.
Yeah, I suppose that was oneof those words, right at the
beginning, we were talking aboutlike the spaghetti of my
(53:31):
practice, and how sometimes it'squite difficult to articulate a
through line, even though livingit, being me, it feels quite
definite, sort of what I'mtrying to do and what I'm
interested in. And I supposethat was one of, that was an
artwork I made that was part ofhow, how do I tease out some of
(53:52):
these things and present them inways that people might be able
to look at and think, oh, that'swhat they're going on about?
Okay and ties together some of thoselittle bits, floating bits and
pieces. Yeah, so it is, it's aquestion that I think about, I
(54:13):
wouldn't I, yeah, it'd bedisingenuous to say I think
about it daily, but like, veryoften, yeah, weekly for sure, if
not more often. And, and it isreally what drives loads of my
work. So when I started a newproject, or a new series of
investigations, or whatever itis, the immediate question is,
(54:38):
what can creative stuff do in tounfold some of the complications
around this thing that I'minterested in or that somebody's
presented me with? And it is aquestion that I like to ask
other people who get involved inprojects. Yeah. So, so we're
(54:59):
going to think aboutthis stuff and we're doing some
creative things and how dothose two things connect
together? And how are we goingto use these creative
interactions that we're havingto actually do something about
this thing over here that we'reall really interested in? Or
concerned about? Whatever it is?Yeah. So I guess it's, it's a
(55:23):
nice little reminder for meabout when I, because, well,
because yeah, I'm just sointerested in loads of different
things. I disappear off goingthis and this. So it's a nice way
to pull myself back down tolike, this, this is the thing.
And it's also quite a useful wayto, to share with people a lot
(55:46):
of the stuff that I'm interestedin lots of stuff that kind of
keeps me going.
Well, obviously, the seriesquestion is posing Can art save
us? A deliberately big, boldquestion, which, you know, is
explored with these lenses ofcourage and curiosity, but you
(56:07):
know, explores it as widely aspossible, but there's a quote
I'd like to share of yours,which I thought perhaps spoke to
that question, and itmight be something you want to
elaborate on. And you said'Making is important. Making
makes people happy. It createsspace and time for talking,
(56:31):
thinking, sharing, andappreciating. Making makes people
well, people. The spaces andrelationships we form while
making are essential tohumaneness.' I mean, I thought
that was outstanding. I reallythought that was a beautiful
(56:51):
description of how art can saveus or help us. But that quote,
and the question I'm posing,can art save us, as, as wildly
ambitious as that might be andoutside of absurd policies, and
(57:13):
silly amounts of funding, andinconsistent delivery, what
might your hopes be?
Yeah, I, I love that, Isimultaneously love that
question and I'm also reallyuncomfortable about it. I think
(57:35):
that one of the things that Isort of endlessly have massive
difficult, like, just reallypractical difficulties with in
my day to day work, is this kindof grand ambition of funding
bodies and arts organizationsthat art can change the world
and art can save everything. Andthen at the same time, I do
(58:00):
honestly completely believe thatpeople who are supported to and
have opportunities to becreative in the ways that they
want to be creative with otherpeople that they would want to
be creative with are happier, moresatisfied, more confident, and
have a better ability to supportother people to get useful stuff
(58:23):
done to understand therepercussions of the things that
they do with other people, like I,you know, I think that it just,
it has all of these brilliant,amazing effects on people. And
it's just really fun. It's justa lovely way to spend your time,
as well as all of that otherstuff. And yeah, so I feel very
(58:45):
torn about that. Because I,while I want to celebrate all of
that, the brilliant socialstuff, that being creative is
part of, I also don't think itis useful or reasonable to put,
(59:06):
like the burden of world changeon creativity and specifically
on people who use creativity aspart all of their sort of daily,
daily working life. And so it's, it's a really complicated one.
And I think that people andcommunities who have creativity
(59:36):
sort of deeply embedded in theway that they do stuff, and have
much more chance of creatinghealthy, useful, happy ways of
doing things and I don't justmean that point of view, like
doing day to day things, butlike doing vast kinds of like
(59:56):
social things as well. Butobviously, there's loads of
other stuff that is involved inthat. And for that to become
like common place and valued,the, the changes that we would
need in other bits of societyhave completely ignored. I'm
(01:00:20):
especially aware of that, as Ido more policy related work.
Because to get to the pointwhere you could even slightly
tweak policy, and then to get tothe point where the people who
are daily involved in the workthat, that covers and understand
what that means to their work,and are able to deliver that in
(01:00:41):
a way that genuinely reflectsthose initial ambitions that
went into tenure in the firstplace. Just doing that is like
an astounding amount of work andresources and stuff to go into
that. And that's to maybe changeone policy about one very
specific thing within oneorganization that already
(01:01:02):
values, art and culture. Andthat is already invested in
changing. So then to kind ofextrapolate that out to all of
the other things and otherplaces where those changes will
need to happen is, yeah, it'sit's sort of terrifying. But
then also, big stuff onlyhappens through a series of lots
(01:01:23):
and lots of people beingextremely dedicated to those
tiny little changes. So yeah, Iguess that well, there isn't any
other way I can operate. This isjust me, and this is what I do.
And there's no change inthat. So I'm just gonna keep
doing it. And I am going to keepbelieving that if enough other
people are invested in that andare supported to be able to be
(01:01:44):
involved in those things, thatall of those little changes can
actually create a much biggerway to change. Yeah.
Yeah, it seems like we, weshould all be inviting in a far
messier, collaborative wrestlefor all of these things. And
it's really useful, because interms of that, that deliberately
(01:02:07):
bold question, can art save us,that it does recognize, you
know, that of course, it's notas simple as that. And it does
include things like policy andall sorts of mind shifts. So I
really love the messy wrestlethat you highlight. I think we
need t shirts. I am a messywrestler!
(01:02:36):
As ever, I have to race myselfbecause the hour flies by, it's
my typical complaint at the endof every interview I do, because
everyone is so interesting. I'mreally thrilled I could talk to
you today. And I would reallylike to say thank you not just
for joining me today but forbeing such a great human in the
(01:02:58):
world.
Oh, thank you so much. That isreally lovely and right back at
ya. I think that what you'redoing with this is brilliant.
It's really exciting. And I justcan't wait to hear all the other
guests and all the otherconversations as well.
You're all priceless gems, and Ireally can't wait to share it
and for you to hear each other.I will be developing this and I
(01:03:21):
will for sure be keeping youposted. So thank you very much.
Thank you so much.
Bye, bye.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? In this series, I'mtalking to artists, musicians,
filmmakers, actors, art lovers,and other creatives. I'm
exploring how curiosity andcourage not only creates great
art and fuels the art butcultivates a healthy mind too. The
(00:23):
same attitudes are cultivated inmindfulness practice with
scientific and evidence basedresults in the treatment of
depression, stress and anxiety.So I'm asking, Can art save us
and help change the globalepidemic of mental wellness? And
my guest this week is a creativeactivist Lady Kitt, an artist,
(00:46):
maker and drag king, described asan 'international superstar of
feminism.' You may also encounterKitt as Captain Privilege, or
King Kitt, a terminally confused,toxic, male. Kitt's practice,
however, as a socially engagedartist is crystal clear. From
performance art to giant origami, Kit addresses inequality and
(01:08):
inclusivity, creating projectsall over the world. To say Kitt
is hard working doesn't evencome close. Kit, hello, and
thank you again, because youtruly are the busiest artist I
know of.
Thank you. Thanks so much forhaving me. It's lovely. I'm
(01:30):
dead excited to have this chat.
That's lovely. Well, kitt tobegin with when I was looking
at all of your work, I realizedI could also introduce you, and
this is using some of your ownwords, as a 'human with an
insatiable curiosity, who likesmess making, and a healthy dose
(01:51):
of mischievousness,' and Ireally liked that. So I just
wondered, is that allabout crafting human
connections? What is it you'retelling us?
Yeah, it's just everything, everything I do is really driven
by an interest in how beingcreative can help us to have more
(02:19):
fun, interesting, satisfyingconnections. And that's really
that's what I'm super, superinterested in. I guess,
sometimes looking at the workthat I do, it looks like a big
plate of spaghetti with allthese different bits, all
together like that. And it lookslike a bit of a mess from a
(02:40):
point of view of like, oh,what's going on, there's there's
paper, and then there's, youknow, recycled flowers, and
there's an opera and thenthere's a drag king, and like
there's all these differentthings going on. But being
inside of that it doesn't feelvery sort of chaotic or
confusing. It feels quite clearto me like what I'm interested
in doing. And I guess because collaboration is essential to what
(03:05):
I do, I work with loads ofdifferent people and the stuff
that we end up doing, as part ofour investigations into how we
can act creatively is hugelyinfluenced by those people. So I
ended up doing stuff that Iwould never have thought of
doing myself and that use skillsthat I don't have any of because
(03:28):
I'm interested in like workingwith other people, and what do
they want to do. And I guessthat's why a lot of the projects
that I'm involved in, can lookvery different from the outside,
you know, like creating amagazine, or trying to encourage
a record office to have moreLGBTQ history there, or writing
(03:50):
a folk song and these thingsthat might often seem quite
disconnected, they all come fromthis real interest in where,
and how does creativity helpus to connect to people in more
interesting, fun, useful,satisfying ways?
Yeah, I mean, it is wonderful and when people increasingly see
(04:15):
the breadth of your work, whichwill be signposted with this
podcast, it really isimpressive. And I really do love
your use of the word mess andthe richness of creative
collaboration because would yousay, mess is a form of
curiosity? Oh,
(04:36):
I never thought about it likethat. I really like that
phrase. Yeah. I think for me, Iguess it's a, it's a natural
thing that happens. It can be atool, but it can also be a
product of that curiosity.And if in investigations where
(04:57):
there's not room for that sortof awkwardness and the chaos
and the mess, I just feel likethere's well, I suppose it's
like there's a lack of honestyabout an investigation that
doesn't make room for thatstuff. So if you plan an
(05:17):
investigation as much as you canplan an investigation and you don't think
where is uncomfortableness andawkwardness and mess going to
fit into that? And how are wegoing to make room for that? But
then also how can we build toolsto sort of navigate that and
(05:37):
manage that in healthy ways,then I just feel like that it's
setting itself up to probably bequite disasterous. So I suppose
either to be like reallydisastrous, or just to be not
very useful. And and to be morelike, an idea of an
investigation as opposed to anactual real scrummaging around
(05:59):
trying to find stuff out.
Yeah, so there's strategic planning,
that's relevant, you know,learning outcomes, perhaps. I'm,
I'm interested in how you mightreflect on your curiosity as a
child, maybe there wassomeone who was instrumental in
(06:22):
developing that, or were youjust naturally curious? I'm
really interested in if you wereto wind back where you think
that maybe all all began?
Yeah, I guess like everything.It's a bit of both, isn't it? So
some, some stuff that's just inthere and then some stuff
that's been kind of observedfrom from an early age? Yeah,
(06:44):
there's loads of things that asa child probably contributed to
that, I guess, my granny was, Iwas such such good pals with my
granny, I absolutely loved her. Imean, we had loads of
disagreements about stuff but yeah,we had, we had a really good
relationship. And she was avery, like, I would describe her
(07:09):
as, like very gossipy, I guessand that was about, for
me, that was about curiosity.She was just like, sort of,
overwhelmingly curious about therelationships that people near
her had. So that was like,primarily her family, but then
(07:30):
also kind of her local communityand stuff. And she just invested
huge amounts of time and energyinto finding out about that, and
knowing what people were doingall of the time, and everything.
And, and there was some reallyrubbish stuff about that. And
she could be very judgmentalabout things since she found out
those sort of investigations.But also, there's some lovely
(07:51):
stuff about that. And she was,you know, like the person that
other people in the community inthe family went to if they needed
a bit of information aboutsomething, and she was just a
very easy person to talk to. SoI would go and stay with her
quite often. And she lived abouta 12 minute walk maybe from her
local shops. And we would, itwould take us three hours to get
(08:14):
there and back because she wouldjust talk to every single
person, and she would know likewhat they were doing and what
their grandchildren were up to,and how was their dog like, oh,
yeah, so I guess I just, I lovedher and, and sort of looked up
to her in some ways, althoughalso not in a totally uncritical
(08:35):
way, like I said, and I really,love the fact that she
was so great at chatting topeople basically. And because
she asked loads of questions andhad this kind of like open
interest, people would tell her,like astounding stuff, you
know, she knew things aboutpeople that probably their
(08:57):
families didn't know about them.And because she just had this
kind of open interest. And people felt comfortable to talk
to her and tell her this stuff.So I guess that's a really big
influence in that, in that kindof curiosity. But also, I guess,
an influence in the not so greatstuff,
(09:18):
I can run with that as well as,as well as the good stuff.
And I suppose, quite a sense ofresponsibility about where you
take the things that you findout in these investigations. And
I think that's quite a big partof the way that I work now, and
also just practically takes upquite a lot of the time that I
(09:38):
have to dedicate to work isthinking about, well, I guess
the ethics really of beingcurious and like if you create
situations that give people andmake people feel comfortable to
say things that they need to saysome of which might be quite
sensitive and difficult, thenwhat's my responsibility
(10:00):
as a person who's part offacilitating that, how do I
create structures that mean,that's not just an exploitative
thing, and I'm not basicallylike mining people for their
experiences, and then justtaking those experiences away
and doing some
art with them. Like that, thatmight make people feel really
(10:22):
uncomfortable and upset. And youknow, there's, there's so much,
there are so many things thatneed to be really deeply
considered, and so muchcommunicating that needs to go
on around that. And I guessthat's, well not I guess that is
a really, really big part of theway that I work thinking about,
Oh, how do we how do we managethat?
(10:44):
It's just wonderful what you'vebeen able to share. I mean, I
think that role of you know,that your your grandma played in
openness, curiosity as a form ofopenness and connectedness and
you know, you're very aware ofthe importance of human
connection. And it seems that,you know, that's been probably
(11:10):
quite a fundamental influence toyou. But what I really love is
that it's also highlighting howimportant trust is in that
relationship. The fact thatpeople could share all of those
stories, clearly demonstrates,there was very deep trust. And
(11:30):
it seems to me that trust is ahuge responsibility you are also
working with now as an artist,and particularly as a socially
engaged artist, I wondered ifyou might like to share how
that's maybe increasingly becominga responsibility in your work?
(11:55):
Yeah, I think the reallystraightforward answer to that
is, is that it hasn'tincreasingly become a
responsibility it always has been aresponsibility but I've become
more aware of it, and better atmanaging it. So thinking about
when I started making work inthese ways, I wasn't as aware of
(12:18):
of these things and I didn'thave systems and structures in
place, or even think that I sortof needed them to, to keep
people safe, including myself.So it's been a it's been a long
and in bits, incredibly tortureprocess, to get to the point
(12:38):
where I can, I can sort ofmanage those things. And also, I
suppose one of the things iswhere I could have a
conversation like this with you.Because one of the things, one
of the sort of things that'shappened in that time, and you
know, through those discoveries,and those sometimes really dreadful
experiences, is that one of themost important things is being
(13:04):
able to be straightforward aboutthis stuff. But that's also
incredibly difficult and it'svery vulnerable, to be able to
talk about this stuff, it'svery, you know, I have to put
myself in in a vulnerableposition to be able to talk
about it. But I'm also expectinga lot of vulnerability from the
(13:24):
people that I work alongside.And I think that, that,
probably, that's been one of thebiggest, most useful things in
that process of getting to thepoint where I have a better
understanding of how importantthis is. And that it's always
been really important but I'venow gotten to a point where I'm
(13:46):
kind of, I feel like I'm betterat managing that it's just going
Do you know what? I have to putmyself in that incredibly
uncomfortable situation again,and again, and again, of saying,
I'm really uncomfortable aboutthis. I don't really know what's
going to happen, it might besome of these things. How do you
(14:07):
feel about that? I'm like,share, I guess sharing a lot of
how I feel about things, butthen also sharing a lot of the
power, I suppose of how thingshappen. And being upfront about
that. And not expecting that Ishould make all the decisions
(14:30):
but also not creating asituation where I expect other
people to make all the decisionswithout support to be able to do
that in a way that is accessiblefor them and makes them feel
comfortable.
Yeah, I mean, it's anincredible amount of things to
think about, isn't it? In termsof responsibility,
(14:50):
responsibility to yourself andparticularly around safeguarding
and in an inclusion for example,vulnerability is very core, it
seems to the work of artists,and especially yours. I guess
(15:11):
you might feel vulnerable as aperformance artist. You know, we
can talk about, you know, KingKitt striding on stage but
you're behind that, thatpersona, that character, you
know, how does that really feel?That's one form of exposure,
isn't it and as you weresaying, the vulnerability that
(15:33):
you experience when you'reactually taking care of other
people that are involved in anevent or creative activity
you're managing. How do youmanage your sense of
vulnerability? How do you keepgoing?
Again, it's been a, it's been aseries of really hard learn lessons.
(15:56):
So yeah, really difficult,complicated times. And I think
the main thing is that,understanding how important it
is to have different types ofsupport networks around you. So
I think when I first startedmaking this kind of work and
like working within thesekinds of approaches, I guess, I
(16:19):
probably had some good friendsaround me who I could blow off a
bit of emotional steam with. Butnot many of them worked in
similar ways to the way that Idid. So a lot of the stuff was
just like, Oh, poor you, yeah,that sounds really rotten. Which
(16:40):
is great and it's reallyimportant. And I think, you
know, I still need that. But Ialso needed people who could do
that, and go, Oh, yeah, when Iwas in a situation a bit like
that, this is what I did. Oryou know, that artists,
when they were talking aboutsomething a bit like that, why
don't you go and look at theirwork or have a chat with them,
(17:00):
or whatever. Or just reallypractical things like, here is a
session plan that will help youplan around supporting pupils
mental health better, orwhatever it is. And so for a
long time, I just didn't reallyhave that bit of, of the support
network. And I, there was oneproject I did that was just
(17:23):
spectacularly dreadfully, it fell topieces in a really awful way, it
was horrendous for loads andloads of the people who were
involved, including me. And Igot to the point where I
thought, Oh, I don'tknow if I can do this anymore.
Actually, this is just, this istoo much. Yeah, so while I was
(17:43):
licking my wounds from that, Ithought, no, actually, I
probably still can do this. ButI do need to do it in a really
different way. And then how am Igoing to approach this in a
different way, that means Idon't lead myself and other
people into the situations thatled to that project being so,
(18:04):
so difficult. And so as part ofthat, I thought, I need to be
chatting to other artists whowork in some kind of similar way
so that we can share theemotional stuff, but also that
like the dead dead practicalstuff, and had this idea of
setting up something that wecall a Social Practice Surgery,
(18:27):
which is basically just to chat,a chance for people who work in
these ways to get together andhave a good old chat in complete
confidence, and get some stuffoff their chest, but also, like,
share some, some useful things.
(18:50):
And I think I thinkit'd be good for other types of
work as well. Like, I don't, Idon't think it's just social
practice artists who need thatthing. You know, I think like,
police officers might need itand lawyers. Yeah. Like all
sorts of social workers mightneed that kind of that kind of
(19:12):
structure. Yeah, so I've done a fewsessions. And then about that
time, I started a project withan artist called Dan Russell,
and was chatting to him aboutit. And then we ended up
thinking, Oh, actually, maybethere's something that we could
do together. So now we run thosesessions together. And there's
(19:33):
like the sort of the kind ofcycle of each of those sessions
like preparing for it and thendelivering the session and then
like debriefing after them. Butthen there's also this kind of
longer arc over the top of thatof how Dan and I talk about our
practice together, but also allthe other stuff that we're doing
(19:54):
separately, that is connected tothat Social Practice Surgery,
but then there's also loads ofdifferent seperate things and
all of those things have endedup being a really substantial
part of providing that stuffthat I needed to be able to
manage that and to do that inkind of healthier ways. So I
guess that's one of the things.And then one of the other things
(20:15):
is that I'm involved in theSocial Art Network, which is a UK
network for social practiceartists, I think it's about 11
or 12 hubs around the UK. And wehave regular meetings, and we're
working towards a big eventtogether in November. And that's
also provided loads and loads ofopportunities to connect with
(20:36):
people who were, who were workingin similar ways and to share that
brilliant stuff but alsoshare the really
complicated stuff.
It's really, really interesting,because it seems, I mean, it's
such a great idea, the surgeries, because it seems
you've identified thatdifference between empathy and
(20:58):
compassion, which isincreasingly discussed, as
empathy recognizes feelings ofsympathy and concern, but it's
actually compassion that has theactive role. And then you
started to describe that, youknow, you could come up with
(21:21):
different mechanisms and ideas,and those, those are kind of
active inputs into how somebodycan deliver a project or keep
going. And that seems,you know, just so essential, and
what your surgeries appear to bedoing is driving empathy into a
more active state.
(21:42):
Oh, that's really fascinating.I've not heard, yeah,
I've not heard that. I've notheard those things described in
that way before. Yeah. Talk tome a little bit more about that,
because I'm interested in howthat's reflected back through the
surgery.
Yeah, for sure. Because I, Irecently attended a course an
(22:05):
online course with theCompassion Institute, who are
based in LA. And the CompassionInstitute is informed by, you
know, spiritual leaders, Buddhists,neuroscientists, psychologists,
all collaborating, aroundand wellbeing, but also
(22:28):
the significance of, of howwellbeing impacts the wellbeing
of a community of a society. Andit was through that course, that
this emphasis became clear thatthere was more and more
understanding through deliberatestudy of what the difference of
empathy and compassion is. Andso, you know, that's a very
(22:52):
simplified explanation, butit points to the difference of
empathy, being if you like, youknow, emotionally considerate,
but a passive state. Andcompassion actually, is where
the action happens. So, byunderstanding this, we can all
(23:14):
learn to think about how we canbecome more compassionately
active. So you might find thatinteresting, I can send you
links. That's really, reallyfascinating and obviously, I'm
just hearing about this now. Soit's all new ideas moving
around. But I, I can definitelysee how understanding more about
(23:38):
that could feed into the socialimpact of surgeries and
loads of the different thingsthat I'm interested in.
Yeah, and yet, you talkingabout your surgery idea, to me,
is already delivering that, youseem to have instinctively found
your way to that. That's what'sinteresting to me. So you're
(23:59):
asking me about what I'velearned, but I'm already hearing
from you that, that's what youunderstand. Ah, so I just don't
have this
language to talk about it.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, reallyinteresting. And, of course,
interesting, because, of course,as a socially engaged artist,
(24:20):
you clearly are veryinterested in compassionate
action, you know, or action thathelps the community and
individuals. We have previouslyspoken about how art projects
are increasingly plugging holesin social provision and I
wondered if, you know, for ourlisteners, if you'd like to add
(24:42):
some context to that. Yeah.
I suppose, I guess maybe as partof this, it's good to talk a
little bit about where sociallyengaged art has come from and
all the different things that itgets called and stuff so you
know what is considered to besocially engaged art. It has been
(25:02):
going on for ever, like hundreds1000s of years and has existed
in a huge variety of forms withloads and loads of different
names. Community Art,participatory practice, teaching
artistry, loads andloads of different things that
like working in these kinds ofways get called. And, and
(25:26):
sort of thinking about thehistory of that, in this
country. I guess over the last40 years, maybe there's been an
increasing pressure on artistsinvolved in these ways of
working to create projects todeliver work that plugs holes
(25:52):
in services. And, you know,to the point where you get
call outs, that's that sort ofspecifically say, we want an
artists who wants to work withcommunities to think about how
people who or Idon't know, I can't, I can't
(26:14):
even think of an example, butlike to work with this very
specific group who are dealingwith a very specific, very
complicated thing in theirlives. And then through the
magic of art, to sort of sortthat out. And it's, it really
is, you know, these call outsare really kind of framed like
(26:35):
that as if magically, with fivegrand, and one overworked and
disparate group of people whoall share some experience, but
also have vastly differentexperiences in other ways, can
be brought together over thecourse of three months to like,
magically sort out this reallycomplicated thing. Yeah, and
(26:59):
it's, I mean, it's just thatwe're both laughing about it,
because it is just so utterlyridiculous. But the problem is
that because it's framed likethat, artists feel like they
need to contextualize the stuffthat happens within those
projects in that way. And, andagain, I guess this comes back
(27:21):
to the mess and failure andawkwardness, there's no room to
talk about those things. There'sno room to talk about the fact
that the call out was ridiculousin the first place. To talk
about the fact that the reasonthat these kinds of projects are
needed and wanted is becausethere's like just horrific lack
(27:46):
of provision for so manydifferent things. There's no
room to talk about the fact thatgoing through that process with
people will be extremelybeautiful and amazing and
joyful, but also reallycomplicated, it can be very
upsetting for a lot of peopleinvolved. And there is no, within
the frame of those type ofprojects, there's no space for
(28:07):
any of that stuff to be talkedabout in a straightforward
direct way, or to be kind ofshown to people who haven't been
really directly involved. And itjust leads to this really
disingenuous horrible thingwhere artists feel like they
have to say, oh, yeah, withthat, five grand in those three
(28:28):
months, we did manage to sortthis out, jazz hands! And it
just creates this sort ofperpetual wheel of
dishonesty, which is rubbish.And then some of the things that
happen, like within that are theidea that funding bodies think
that, like those kinds oftransformational things can
(28:51):
happen in three months, which isludicrous, you know, that they
just can't, you can barely getto know a group in three months,
let alone, you know, dosomething sort of world changing
together. So thatjust perpetuates,because artists
feedback and say, Oh, we didmanage to do all this in three
months, those funders keepgoing, Oh, well, we'll just keep
(29:13):
offering like three monthsthings then and that's fine.
Which means that some of thoseprojects where an artist has a
long term relationship with agroup are just funded piecemeal,
by these tiny, little pots ofmoney, which obviously there's
loads of admin that goes intothat. So lots of time spent
doing the admin as opposed toactually just getting on with
(29:35):
doing the art and you know,helping people to have a good
time and sharing skills and likeall of that brilliant stuff.
And then the other thing thathappens is that some artists
don't want to or not able to forwhatever reasons or there just
isn't other resources around tokeep those things going. So
(29:56):
those projects are just threemonths and in those three
months when it comes together,they start building
relationships, they feel like,oh, actually, I am starting to
feel quite confident about this,I'm love my Tuesday
afternoons or whatever it is,and then the commission ends and
the money runs out, and there'snothing. And then that community
(30:18):
is left feeling really oftendisappointed, and often really
cross. And sometimes that goestowards like the funders and the
wider structures, but sometimesthat goes directly to the artist
and to art. So then the nexttime there is for some reason,
some money or whatever, for anartist to be able to work with
(30:40):
the same or a similar group,that group quite rightly goes,
no, the last person you came,got was all excited, we were
going to do all this brilliantstuff together, we were having a
great time every Tuesday, andthen they just disappeared and
we feel rubbish about it. Sowe're not putting ourselves in
that really vulnerable positionwith you again, thanks very
(31:00):
much, quite rightly, like, ofcourse. And yeah, so it just
creates these horrible, horriblecycles for artists and for
people who are getting involvedin these type of projects
incredibly disappointing atbest, but like really kind of
devastating and damaging atworst. Yeah. Which
(31:21):
is really serious, because ofcourse, this points to something
we raised earlier,which is the role of trust in
these relationships. And itseems that whilst we're talking
about curiosity and courage inrelation to the arts, the
(31:42):
funders, the policymakers, anddefinitely the government could
do with a big old dose of whatcuriosity encourages, because
there's that complete lack ofunderstanding isn't there about
all of the issues you'reraising? You know, that
they need to become more curiousabout what it is that they're
(32:05):
making decisions about andsetting the terms of policy or
funding for? What are the chancesKitt? What are the chances do
you think of that shifthappening? Yeah, I
don't I don't know aboutchances, from that point of view,
like, yeah, Ithink it's, it's vital for it to
(32:30):
happen, whether it does happenor when it happens, like, who
knows. But one of the, I supposeover the last four years, I've
been more and more interested innot only in cultural policy, but
how actually projects like theprojects that I do, and
approaches, like the approachesthat I use, can be part of
(32:51):
making policy. So not only howcan policy change to accommodate
these increasingly, like popularways of working, but how can
working in these ways, be partof actually building those
policies in themselves. Andquite a lot of the work that
I've done recently is, isrelated to that. And that
started really organicallybecause I found that one of the
(33:15):
things that was happening withgroups and communities that I
was working with were was policychange. So a project would be
happening, and then there wouldbe a sort of conundrum or a
difficulty or something wouldcome up. And then someone would
say, Oh, well, part of theproblem with this is that we
(33:35):
don't have a, well, we maybe wedon't have any safer spaces
policy, for example, or thecyberspace policy that we have
is rubbish, or it was reallygood, but it's not fit for what
we do anymore. So let's go andsort that out. And then,
that would, the project would kindkind of start a series of
(33:57):
conversations where that wouldbe fascinating. And that
happened quite a few times. AndI was like, Oh, that's so
fascinating, isn't it? And andactually, why am I just being
vaguely interested by the factthat happened, when maybe
there's a possibility that aproject could be started on
(34:17):
purpose, to try and make some ofthose changes? Yeah, so that's,
that's been an increasinginterest over the last few
years. And I suppose an exampleof that is a project that I'm
working on at the moment, calledFraming Social Practice
Collections. And that again,sort of very organically came
(34:38):
about because I was doing twoprojects that were in some ways
quite similar. So they're bothsocially engaged residencies
and they both had the potentialfor some of the stuff that
happened in the project to becollected at the end. So one of
them waswith a local recordsoffice, Warwickshire County
(34:58):
Records Office in the Midlandsand one with Durham University
and their Durham University Artcollection. And through that
process, I was just learningloads about what a collection is
how different collections aremanaged, you know, yeah, some of
the policies that didn't seem atall compatible to like, take
(35:19):
collecting and looking afterwork that's generated through
social art projects. And I wasthinking well I'm
learning loads, I bet there areother people who probably be
quite interested in some of thisstuff. So I applied for some
extra funding from Arts CouncilEngland to specifically think
about that stuff that I waslearning, and maybe ways of, of
(35:40):
sharing that. So I'm kind ofcoming towards the end now of
like, a six, seven monthproject, where I've been taking
the stuff that I learned throughthose two projects, but then
also talking to other people inother collections and other
artists in groups about how thismight affect what they do. And
so there's a, there's a part ofthat, which is just how
(36:04):
practically, how can policychange, to be able to accommodate
eople like waysof working particularly, like
collaborative ways of working?But then also, how can, by
collections welcoming in thiswork, how can that structurally
(36:24):
change organizations andinstitutions from the inside?
And from the projects that I'vebeen involved in so far, it
seems really, a really welcomedapproach. And people, you know,
people in institutions andorganizations are often really
aware that the policies theyhave are written by people who
(36:46):
are good at writing policies,but who aren't necessarily that
affected by the things that areheld in those documents and actually,
loads of people who, who wereinvolved in those processes are
really keen to, to chat topeople and to work alongside
people who, who will be reallyaffected by those
(37:08):
decisions, but maybe aren'tquite sure how that could work.
And so some of these socialapproaches have seemed really
dead useful in that.
Yeah, it's just so important, it's just so critical. You know,
what you're acknowledging that,you know, it's all very well,
(37:29):
isn't it to place what can feellike a burden on artists, could
you please regenerate this city,could you please rehabilitate
the UK? Here's 2,500 pounds, andwe'd like that sorted out in 10
days, but thatabsurdity, you know, it really
(37:50):
does exist. And, and I know thatyou've said previously, you
know, the damage that hasgenuinely happened in the UK,
you know, your experience of itin terms of people arriving at
your art events or creativeevents, who also need
(38:11):
signposting, asking is there a foodbank near here, I need some help
with understanding my housingissue, you know, so there's
been this wider role in animposed social responsibility
that isn't necessarilyappropriate, because you're
absorbing even more risk. Andthat brings me to a quote,
(38:35):
actually, from Brene Brown, whoyou may be aware of, she's a
research professor who's hugelysuccessful with
her TED talks on YouTube,because she has studied things
like vulnerability. But here'sthis description of
(38:56):
vulnerability from Brene Brown,and she says 'vulnerability can
be understood as uncertaintyrisk, and emotional exposure.'
And I was interested in whatyour reflections on that were,
in view of everything we'vewe've talked about so far.
(39:16):
Is that like, on my experiences ofvulnerability, or on kind of, I
guess, like the functions ofvulnerability or bit of all of
that?
Yeah, that's a good point.That's a really good point.
Maybe both, I'd be interestedin your own experiences as a
(39:37):
socially engaged artist. So itmight be the vulnerability you
witness but also equally thevulnerability you experience
because of things like you know,it's one thing you're performance
artists, I mean, I'd die offright if I had to get onto a
stage you know, that'svulnerability right there
but also, there's alsovulnerability in what you do.
(40:00):
Because of your awareness ofthis, not just social
engagement, but this growing,changing, shifting social
responsibility that shouldn'treally be imposed onto you
or to the artists.
Yeah, I don't, I've got so many,there's so many different
pockets of what I might want totalk about.
(40:22):
I did, I did consider
an independent series justcalled you know, Can save us
by Kitt.
Okay, I suppose thething that I'd probably most
(40:44):
like to talk about is as opposedto specific vulnerabilities or
examples, or whatever, may bemore like the function of
vulnerability in the kind ofsettings that I work in, and the
(41:05):
enormous value of that. So Italk a lot about creative
intimacies in my work, and thoseexist along a sort of scale.
From very, very close intimaciesto sort of quite vague
intimacies. And they are, butnone of them along any point in
(41:33):
that scale, are possible withoutsome vulnerability happening.
And everyone involved needs tobe able to offer a little bit of
that, to really make thosecreative intimacies work and
happen and be sort of genuine.Yeah. So it's something that I
(41:58):
think about loads in, in mywork. And it's a really, it's a
constant balance. And Idefinitely, the way that I
approach it now is reallydifferent to the way that I used
to approach it. And I think,when I started out, I, I always
thought that the situations thatI invite people into can be
(42:20):
quite vulnerable, and they canmake people feel quite
vulnerable. And my approach thatwhen I started out was, so I
have to not be that myself. So Ihave to be this like, ultimately
calm in control, have an answerto everything, like sort of,
(42:41):
really, I guess, guiding the,the whole process. And then I
was like, that it's reallyimportant that I can do that.
And that's what I've helpedpeople to have a good time and
feel comfortable, and all ofthat stuff. And to some extent,
that was right. And that doeshelp quite a lot of people to do
that. It wasn't massivelyhelpful for me. And also, there
(43:03):
are a lot of people who thatjust didn't work for you. And as
I've sort of developed the waythat I work, and change the way
that I work, and I've actuallyfound that making space for me
being vulnerable, as well asreally important. And there's a
really fine line between doingthat and just completely taking
(43:26):
a facilitator and really takingover with that, and then not
making space for other people.And, yeah, so doing it
appropriately so that everybodygets an opportunity to do that.
And I think a lot of that aswell has been influenced by
ideas of non hierarchicalworking, and really trying to
dismantle this idea that likethe artist comes in, and they've
(43:49):
organized this thing. And, and Ijust less and less feel like
that and more and more feel likehave a structure, that
people have enough of astructure so people can
understand what they'reinitially getting themselves
into. And then once we're all inthat, together, what happens
from that is, is really up toall of us to try and make happen
(44:12):
together. And some of the stuffthat I need in that is that I
need an opportunity to bevulnerable. So I need to think
about structures that alloweverybody else in that situation
to know that about me and for usto build ways for us to support
each other for that to happen,as opposed to me just being this
(44:33):
person who kind of has thisoverview and just makes it all
happen and is like slightlyremoved from it. And that's just
that's changed loads and loadsof things over, over the time that
I've been working. And I feelreally comfortable about that.
And I feel like the projectsthat I do are more interesting
(44:54):
and more accessible, morewelcoming, more useful, more
fun because of thoseapproaches.
Yeah, is it thoseapproaches and structures that
make you brave enough to embracebeing vulnerable?
Yeah, that's definitely part ofit. I think a big part of it was
(45:17):
just getting over myself. Like,initially, it was just, you
know, like a sort of terror ofgoing, you know, this is
actually me, and I am worriedabout some stuff. And, and yeah,
and some of that was justpersonal. But you're right. Once
I got over that, the stuffthat's allowed me to continue
(45:38):
doing it and do it in a healthyway, is having those kinds of
structures and systems. Yeah, sothat it doesn't just spiral out
of control, and so thateverybody has an opportunity to
be involved in thoseinteractions. And it's not just
solely focused on one person orone sort of set of people.
Yeah. Something I, I'minterested in reflecting on in
(46:01):
the introduction, when Imentioned that we could also
encounter you as King Kitt, aterminally confused, toxic male,
I wanted to return to that,because that's also not, you
know, just pointing the finger.I like that you have also
provided a description of thatas being 'comically manly', because
(46:28):
you're highlighting what can be'dangerously macho and
devastatingly vulnerable'. So Iactually think, or that tells
me that the character ismotivated by kindness as well.
Yeah, I really, I really hopeso. Because I feel like I think
(46:50):
especially with my experiencesof being involved in social
justice organizations andmovements over the years,
there's, there's an idea thatthere's a sort of sinfulness in
privilege, and that people whohave certain types of privilege
and specifically straight maleprivilege have to kind of atone
(47:13):
for that in a very sort of publicway. So, like, there are
these kinds of, yeah, ideasabout people like sort of self
flagellation of the privilege.And I, I can totally understand
how that happens. Like, I cansee how that happens. But also,
(47:36):
I just think it's reallyunhelpful, and often also really
cruel. And so I hope that,through that character, it's
obvious that I am playing withand being ridiculous and kind of
often really clowny with some ofthose ways that masculinity
(47:58):
like, yeah, happens, and, andyeah, demonstrates itself to the
world. But I hope that withinthat people do see that real
tenderness. And thatunderstanding that a lot of
these things come from having areally difficult,
(48:18):
dreadful time. And yeah, thereare massive, massive privileges
in being a straight white dude.But also, there were really
difficult, awful things aboutthat. And one of the things that
is difficult about that is beingturned into this sort of
bogeyman, for a lot of peoplewho have different experiences.
(48:39):
And I just, I think, the newlight specifically in a social
justice movement context, I'veseen over and over again, really
horrible things happen becauseof that. And also just really,
well, only useful thingshappening. Because as soon as
you start having those divisionswithin what should be a
(49:04):
collaborative movement, it juststops functioning. And so we
need and again, I guess it'sgoing back to being awkward and
uncomfortable and messy andhaving really difficult sort of
nuanced conversations. If, as agroup of people, we're going to
change the things that we feellike we really need to change
and I guess one of those thingsfor me is, you know, trying to
(49:27):
get to a point where we'reexisting in a less climate
disasterous you know, way,like a less climate disastrous
way of existing. That is notgoing to be solved by excluding
certain people or invitingpeople in but then just giving
them a certain pocket where theyhave to go and sit and be quiet
(49:49):
because they're too privilegedto say anything. And that that's
just not going to help people towork together in really A lot of
straightforward, complicated,straightforward and complicated
and open ways. And we're justnot going to fix any of these
things that we know desperatelyneed fixing. Yeah, so I guess a
(50:13):
lot of the stuff with theKing Kitt characters and Captain
Privilege and all of those, all the drag stuff, is me
finding ways to think and talkabout all of that stuff, which
is incredibly difficult. Andlike, having this conversation
with you now, I feel quitevulnerable because I know there
are a lot of people who willwildly disagree with this stuff
(50:35):
and will be really offended byit. And it's so, it's very, very
complicated and it's, it feels,yeah, very, feels very
vulnerable to have thoseconversations. And so I guess
that's where turning theconversations into a series of
(50:57):
performances and to a series ofcharacters, makes that a bit
easier, makes it a bit easier forme but hopefully, it makes it
easier for people who mightexperience it as well, and less
confrontational.
Yeah, it's I mean, it seems tome that you are incredibly
brave. And I know, we've talkedabout, you know, structures and
(51:18):
approaches, being part of whatcan give you the courage with
some of your, you know, artisticdelivery. But nevertheless, it's
still interesting, where braverycomes from, which might be
something you want to to reflecton. But it also goes back for me
(51:41):
to what seems to be a hugelyintelligent understanding of
compassion, that yourperformance work is an act of
compassionate action. How doesthat feel when you view
your own work in those terms?
(52:06):
Yeah, it's really lovelyto hear you say that. And I
probably haven't really thoughtabout it quite like that before.
But it's really, yeah, it'sextremely gratifying to hear
some user experience from theoutside to like, reflect it back
(52:26):
in that way. And that feelsreally, it feels really great.
And I guess it feels likesomething to aim for as well.
And to maybe like when I'mworking on these things to
think, oh, how can, how can thiswork being more that? Yeah,
because I probably haven'tarticulated the ambition
(52:48):
specifically in that way. Butyou've definitely tapped
into something that is really,really important. And like,
yeah, giving it a really nicephrase. Yeah, definitely.
Good, deservedly Kitt. Amongstall of your work, something that
stood out to me recently, it wasan image of some paper cut outs
(53:11):
that you had created of words,posing the question, What can
art change today? And I wasreally interested in what some
of the responses were to that.
Yeah, I suppose that was oneof those words, right at the
beginning, we were talking aboutlike the spaghetti of my
(53:31):
practice, and how sometimes it'squite difficult to articulate a
through line, even though livingit, being me, it feels quite
definite, sort of what I'mtrying to do and what I'm
interested in. And I supposethat was one of, that was an
artwork I made that was part ofhow, how do I tease out some of
(53:52):
these things and present them inways that people might be able
to look at and think, oh, that'swhat they're going on about?
Okay and ties together some of thoselittle bits, floating bits and
pieces. Yeah, so it is, it's aquestion that I think about, I
(54:13):
wouldn't I, yeah, it'd bedisingenuous to say I think
about it daily, but like, veryoften, yeah, weekly for sure, if
not more often. And, and it isreally what drives loads of my
work. So when I started a newproject, or a new series of
investigations, or whatever itis, the immediate question is,
(54:38):
what can creative stuff do in tounfold some of the complications
around this thing that I'minterested in or that somebody's
presented me with? And it is aquestion that I like to ask
other people who get involved inprojects. Yeah. So, so we're
(54:59):
going to think aboutthis stuff and we're doing some
creative things and how dothose two things connect
together? And how are we goingto use these creative
interactions that we're havingto actually do something about
this thing over here that we'reall really interested in? Or
concerned about? Whatever it is?Yeah. So I guess it's, it's a
(55:23):
nice little reminder for meabout when I, because, well,
because yeah, I'm just sointerested in loads of different
things. I disappear off goingthis and this. So it's a nice way
to pull myself back down tolike, this, this is the thing.
And it's also quite a useful wayto, to share with people a lot
(55:46):
of the stuff that I'm interestedin lots of stuff that kind of
keeps me going.
Well, obviously, the seriesquestion is posing Can art save
us? A deliberately big, boldquestion, which, you know, is
explored with these lenses ofcourage and curiosity, but you
(56:07):
know, explores it as widely aspossible, but there's a quote
I'd like to share of yours,which I thought perhaps spoke to
that question, and itmight be something you want to
elaborate on. And you said'Making is important. Making
makes people happy. It createsspace and time for talking,
(56:31):
thinking, sharing, andappreciating. Making makes people
well, people. The spaces andrelationships we form while
making are essential tohumaneness.' I mean, I thought
that was outstanding. I reallythought that was a beautiful
(56:51):
description of how art can saveus or help us. But that quote,
and the question I'm posing,can art save us, as, as wildly
ambitious as that might be andoutside of absurd policies, and
(57:13):
silly amounts of funding, andinconsistent delivery, what
might your hopes be?
Yeah, I, I love that, Isimultaneously love that
question and I'm also reallyuncomfortable about it. I think
(57:35):
that one of the things that Isort of endlessly have massive
difficult, like, just reallypractical difficulties with in
my day to day work, is this kindof grand ambition of funding
bodies and arts organizationsthat art can change the world
and art can save everything. Andthen at the same time, I do
(58:00):
honestly completely believe thatpeople who are supported to and
have opportunities to becreative in the ways that they
want to be creative with otherpeople that they would want to
be creative with are happier, moresatisfied, more confident, and
have a better ability to supportother people to get useful stuff
(58:23):
done to understand therepercussions of the things that
they do with other people, like I,you know, I think that it just,
it has all of these brilliant,amazing effects on people. And
it's just really fun. It's justa lovely way to spend your time,
as well as all of that otherstuff. And yeah, so I feel very
(58:45):
torn about that. Because I,while I want to celebrate all of
that, the brilliant socialstuff, that being creative is
part of, I also don't think itis useful or reasonable to put,
(59:06):
like the burden of world changeon creativity and specifically
on people who use creativity aspart all of their sort of daily,
daily working life. And so it's, it's a really complicated one.
And I think that people andcommunities who have creativity
(59:36):
sort of deeply embedded in theway that they do stuff, and have
much more chance of creatinghealthy, useful, happy ways of
doing things and I don't justmean that point of view, like
doing day to day things, butlike doing vast kinds of like
(59:56):
social things as well. Butobviously, there's loads of
other stuff that is involved inthat. And for that to become
like common place and valued,the, the changes that we would
need in other bits of societyhave completely ignored. I'm
(01:00:20):
especially aware of that, as Ido more policy related work.
Because to get to the pointwhere you could even slightly
tweak policy, and then to get tothe point where the people who
are daily involved in the workthat, that covers and understand
what that means to their work,and are able to deliver that in
(01:00:41):
a way that genuinely reflectsthose initial ambitions that
went into tenure in the firstplace. Just doing that is like
an astounding amount of work andresources and stuff to go into
that. And that's to maybe changeone policy about one very
specific thing within oneorganization that already
(01:01:02):
values, art and culture. Andthat is already invested in
changing. So then to kind ofextrapolate that out to all of
the other things and otherplaces where those changes will
need to happen is, yeah, it'sit's sort of terrifying. But
then also, big stuff onlyhappens through a series of lots
(01:01:23):
and lots of people beingextremely dedicated to those
tiny little changes. So yeah, Iguess that well, there isn't any
other way I can operate. This isjust me, and this is what I do.
And there's no change inthat. So I'm just gonna keep
doing it. And I am going to keepbelieving that if enough other
people are invested in that andare supported to be able to be
(01:01:44):
involved in those things, thatall of those little changes can
actually create a much biggerway to change. Yeah.
Yeah, it seems like we, weshould all be inviting in a far
messier, collaborative wrestlefor all of these things. And
it's really useful, because interms of that, that deliberately
(01:02:07):
bold question, can art save us,that it does recognize, you
know, that of course, it's notas simple as that. And it does
include things like policy andall sorts of mind shifts. So I
really love the messy wrestlethat you highlight. I think we
need t shirts. I am a messywrestler!
(01:02:36):
As ever, I have to race myselfbecause the hour flies by, it's
my typical complaint at the endof every interview I do, because
everyone is so interesting. I'mreally thrilled I could talk to
you today. And I would reallylike to say thank you not just
for joining me today but forbeing such a great human in the
(01:02:58):
world.
Oh, thank you so much. That isreally lovely and right back at
ya. I think that what you'redoing with this is brilliant.
It's really exciting. And I justcan't wait to hear all the other
guests and all the otherconversations as well.
You're all priceless gems, and Ireally can't wait to share it
and for you to hear each other.I will be developing this and I
(01:03:21):
will for sure be keeping youposted. So thank you very much.
Thank you so much.
Bye, bye.
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