From the Caribbean to Hackney, from Struggle to the Stage.

Dr Michael McMillan is an artist, author, playwright and curator. His plays and performance pieces have been produced by the Royal Court Theatre, Channel 4, BBC Radio 4 Drama and across the UK. He’s a Visiting Professor of Creative Writing at the University of the Arts, London and an Associate Lecturer, teaching Cultural & Historical Studies at the London College of Fashion. Michael was born to immigrant parents from St Vincent and the Grenadines and his work explores family, identity and generation in a migrant context. His curation and installation of a 1970s West Indian Front Room at the Geffrye Museum had more than 35, 000 visitors and has since become a permanent exhibition at the now Museum of the Home. A new iteration of this 1970s interior was recently included at Tate Britain’s landmark exhibition; “Life Between Islands,” exploring Caribbean-British art over four generations. Amongst the 5 star reviews, The Guardian described the exhibition as ”a mind-altering portrait of British Caribbean life through art.”  We talk about the significance of the Windrush generation, the struggle behind rich cultural exchange, the political fear of art, the vital integrity of an artist, courage when your identity is made a target and the experience that changed Michael's life when he was only 16. Michael is a true educator.

Series Audio Editor - Courtesy of Joey Quan.

Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb

Images: The Museum of the Home

Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can also be found here: https://www.canartsaveus.com

Discover Dr. Michael McMillan's Front Room here: 

https://www.museumofthehome.org.uk/whats-on/rooms-through-time/a-front-room-in-1976/

 

 

 

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to

(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and first of all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion Can art save us and my

(00:50):
guest today is Dr. MichaelMacmillan, an artist, author,
playwright and curator. Hisplays and performance pieces
include productions by the RoyalCourt Theatre, Channel 4, and
BBC Radio 4 drama. He's avisiting professor of creative
writing at the University of theArts, London, and an associate
lecturer teaching cultural andhistorical studies at the London

(01:13):
College of Fashion. Michael wasborn to immigrant parents from
St. Vincent and the Grenadinesand his work explores family
identity and generation in amigrant context. His curation
and installation of a 1970s WestIndian Front Room at the Geffrye
museum had more than 35,000visitors, and has since become a

(01:35):
permanent exhibition at the nowMuseum of the Home. A new
iteration of this 1970s interiorwas recently included at Tate
Britain's landmark exhibitionLife Between Islands exploring
Caribbean British art over fourgenerations. Amongst the five
star reviews, The Guardiandescribed the exhibition as a

(01:57):
mind altering portrait ofBritish Caribbean life through
art. Hello, Michael, andwelcome. Thank you for coming.
So Michael, having justmentioned the
exhibition Life Between Islands,perhaps we could follow on from

(02:20):
there, if you could tell us alittle bit more about that
exhibition. And I'm interestedin whether you agree it was 'mind
altering', and who for?
Well, that's a really goodquestion. I mean, so my little
contribution to that to LifeBetween Islands was to create a
room and installation that I nowcall The Front Room, and I

(02:44):
call it that now beyond the kindof West Indian front room,
because most people can relateto it, it's this, it's the
sacred room in the home, thespecial room, the room that
you're not really allowed, thechildren are not allowed in to.
It's the room that you entertainguests in. And that from the
70s, I suppose was, you know,had wallpaper and carpet that

(03:07):
never matched. You're probablyyoung enough, like me to
remember the style andaesthetics of this room. It was
often seen as kitsch and it hadthe best displays of stuff. And
I suppose in the context of theexhibition, why it was valid in
that it was mindaltering, was that room created

(03:27):
a portal into growing up induring the 70s. Firstly, for
African Caribbean communitiesand black British communities,
but also migrant communities,whether that be Southeast Asian,
whoever, particularly alsoworking class people from
working class backgrounds.During the course of the three

(03:49):
months, I would go into theexhibition and I would see
people in the room. And youknow, it was a diverse selection
of people who would say we hadone of them, we had one of them.
This brings back memories,people will be sitting on the
sofa in the installation didn'twant to move, they felt like
they were at home. So that's allpart of the kind of immersive

(04:11):
emotional experience that Ithink the Guardian is kind of
referring to. They're all alsowonderful works. There were 45
artists I should add in thisexhibition. So it's a landmark
was a landmark exhibition. Ithink visitors took maybe two to
three hours to get round itreally if you really kind of

(04:34):
checked out the work. Apart fromwhich artists of my generation
like Sonia Boyce, Tom Joseph,Isaac Julian, I mean, the list
goes on. You know, older artistslike Charlie Phillips, Neil
Kinloch, and so forth. Justamazing work, and it was an

(04:56):
honor to be part of the show.But yeah, that's been The Front
Room is my most popular artwork.People won't leave me alone with it
really, I keep being asked. I'mproud,
and I am humbled when it hasthis effect on people. You know,

(05:19):
it takes them back.
It's extraordinarily powerful.And for me, I really thought,
you know, there's almost asimplicity in the brilliance of
it, if you like, so that if yougo back to I think, 2005, when
it was first installed at theGeffrye museum, you basically

(05:42):
found a way of removing all ofthe deep social barriers,
because you simply said, comein. But it was interesting that
you could say come in, becauseyou had reinstalled the front
room in a safe space, andtypically in a white setting of
a museum. What'sbrilliant about that was it

(06:04):
showed that people wereperhaps curious, it's like
getting to know your neighborfor the first time.
Exactly. So something happenedat the Geffrye museum when we
did it initially. And so you'reright, it's quite simple. You're
using objects really, to tell astory. And there were loads of

(06:26):
kind of, you know, whiteEnglish, British people working
class people who would come inand say, Oh, we that looks like
my friends, neighbor. Thatthing, they had one of them, or
we had one of them, we had thatwe had that plastic pineapple
ice bucket. And all I saw, I sawa lot of that crochet in my, my

(06:47):
neighbors next door. So it didignite kind of curiosity and
people about how other peoplelive, but also how reflected
upon how they lived as well. Andthen with these things, if you
think about, you know, forinstance, the radiogram, and

(07:07):
that's about music, you're goingback and thinking about how was
that music played? What kind ofmusic people play? Where did
they play it, these were thehouse parties, you'd have the
neighbors come in, you know,because there's noise being
made. And so Okay, might as wellinvite the neighbors, bring them
in, make them inclusive, share abit of food. And it's that

(07:29):
atmosphere that Steve McQueenwas able to capture in his film,
as part of Small Axe , theLovers Rock Film, where you
know, the furniture has beenmoved out the radiograms there,
there's food being cooked in thekitchen, people are going to
come later on to dance. And thishouse party is going to go on
until the early hours of themorning. So that one object, the

(07:53):
radiogram signifies all ofthose kinds of experiences of
music that people had. Andthat's what I love about the
project, in that you can usedifferent objects to tell so
many different kinds of stories.The other significant thing is
that it's a woman's room.Really. I mean, my dad may have

(08:15):
used it, the men may use it, butit's the woman who controls she
dresses it. She decorates, she,well, she'll
instructs the men to decorate,but she dresses it. And she
controls how you behave inthere. There's no vulgar
behavior. You know? So I find myinterest in it was my mother's
room. Really, my mother's control.Because I think when guests come

(08:40):
in come into the home, it'swomen who get judged about you
know, the cleanliness and the,the order and tidiness of the
home. And you could say, yeah,that's patriarchal. But also it
reflects something about genderin the home as well, what's
going on in the home anddomestic practice and so forth.

(09:03):
Yeah, and because the front roomis so often a statement of
aspiration, respectability. Andso, you know, we would have been
a typical single parent workingclass family, and we shared
those hideous, fish ornaments,the glass ones. We shared

(09:28):
the wallpaper. We shared JimReeves, but we chucked some Johnny
Cash in as well. But the rulesapplied in terms of a no, a no
go zone. And so I wandered as achild, from your point of view,
what that space was like for youin terms of challenging

(09:51):
conformity. How challenging wereyou?
Well, I mean, it's a goodquestion, Paula, because growing
up, I was a bit ambivalent aboutthe room on one level I
thought the aesthetics were quitekitsch, you know. And, you know,
what is kitsch mean? Kitschmeans it has no taste. It's a
bit vulgar. But then if youreally look at kitsch kitchen is

(10:14):
also about kind of reassurancethings. It's about that nice
picture of flowers and so forth.You know, and so there's a way
we can relook at kitch. But Iused to go into the front room,
too, and my parents wouldallow me in because I was a good
boy, I would leave it how it asI found it, so I was allowed,
very good. And I used to lookthrough photo albums and look

(10:37):
through photos of of portraitsof family and relatives that
look like me looking forresemblances. I also loved
playing the music on the radiogram. So apart from Jim Reeves,
and Johnny Cash, there was ElvisPresley. There was Calypsonians

(10:58):
like Mighty Sparrow. ConnieFrancis, the Beatles even so my
parents had a quite eclecticmusical tastes and they had
their seven inches vinyl recordson I used to play them and
listen to the music. And then ona on a Saturday night before I
was allowed to go out and raveand dance I used to listen to on

(11:22):
Capitol radio, Greg Edwards, SoSpectrum show, which was from
eight o'clock, and then later onat night, they had a regular
show with David Rodigan. Andthat was my kind of Saturday
night entertainment as it werewith music. So I was fast the
answer, you know, I used to gointo the front room quite a lot.
In a sense, really. And youcould have a space, no one else

(11:46):
would come in. You know, no oneelse was there. What was the
other thing that was fascinatingis when the guests came around,
and you'd be invited in by yourparents to meet someone that you
didn't know, but knew you? Andthey would say, Oh, look how big
they've got, how well you'redoing at school. And your mom's
right there. And you better justsay, Okay, I'm doing well. It's

(12:09):
schools. Okay. Schools. Okay.And then and then let's chat in
about with adult talk and bigpeople chat. And then I have
over here. Oh, some some gossip,you know, about, oh, I don't
know why she married him. And Ithink Oh, really. And in my

(12:29):
room, my mum realizes that I'mstill in the room. And she's
saying Don't you have anyhomework to do? But it's not a
it's not a question. Yeah, it'sinstruction to come out to leave
now. You're no longer required.
It's areally clear code, isn't it? But

(12:49):
it's interesting, because, ofcourse, I think you really were
a good boy, as you put it,because I think by the age of
16, you had a literary agent.
This is what happened to me, Paula,and that event changed my life.
So at 15. I was 15 in 1976. Youknow, you had the riots

(13:17):
at the Notting Hill Carnival Iwent, that was my first carnival
I ever went to. So that age, youknow, you're working out as
a teenager who you are. And atschool, my English teacher kind
of noticed this. And heintroduced me to a lot of black
literature. And he said, Michaelthere's an essay competition in the
West Indian World, which was akind of Forerunner before the
Voice newspaper, a blacknewspaper. So I entered and

(13:40):
I entered the essay competition.And the prize was to go for
three weeks to Nigeria, wherethey held the Festac, the
Second World Festival of blackarts and culture. This was a
massive festival. Even by thosestandards of the 1970s, the
Nigerian government had spentthe petrol dollars. And they were

(14:04):
proud and they were showing offto the world that Nigeria was a
premier African nation arrivingnow. So they had 2000 African
American artists 250 are blackartists from this country alone.
That's the scale. You know,everybody from Stevie Wonder

(14:25):
to Bob Marley, werethere. That's just the music.
Much less than theater,literature. Everything. I was 15
Never, never, left Hackney neverhad a passport, never traveled on
a plane. So you can imagine atthat impressionable age, it. It

(14:48):
affected me. I was affected fromthat age. And I came back and
felt. I realized I could doanything I wanted. And so I then
wrote my first play thefollowing year. I sent it to the
Royal Court Theatre, and it wasproduced as part of the Young
Writers Festival. So by 16, Iwas still at school. But now I

(15:08):
was considered a professionalwriter. And that's how I was
given an agent. You know, and Ihad features in The Guardian,
The Times The Telegraph, I was abit of a star. But I never let
it go to my head, because Irealized, you know, with Parents
coming from Caribbeanbackground, education,
education, education, I had todo still, you know, do well at

(15:32):
school educationally. And, youknow, my parents never had
money. So the only thing that Icould achieve social mobility is
through education. So eventhough I was at school, and I
was continuing now, seeingmyself as a playwright, and
continuing to write, I did welleducationally, you know, I

(15:57):
eventually went to universitywent to Sussex University where
I was writing theater. But thatfrom that moment of 16, I knew
what I wanted to do, which wasto be a writer. And, as they
say, the cliche because the restis history, I've continued I've
not stopped I've, that's been mypractice. Yeah, my parents were

(16:17):
a bit disappointed. Coming froma working class background, they
felt well, oh, you know, get aproper job. But I don't know, I
was really determined. Yeah. Somy parents, I think that's a
very important in thinking aboutartists and art, is that, you
know, and I experience it now,in teaching, you know, I noticed

(16:40):
that a lot of students who comefrom middle class backgrounds,
it's not always sometimes theyhave a creative desire to, you
know, to go into the creativearts, but the appearance feel
you should become a doctor or anaccountant or a lawyer. And I
think that's a difficult one topick, pleasing your

(17:01):
parents, in a sense,particularly as students have to
pay for, have to pay for yourhigher education now. But I will
say to students that please keepthat light burning in your
creative practice, keep itgoing, because you'll come back
to it eventually. You know, ifyou have that desire, if you

(17:22):
have it in you, that creativeinterest will never go away, it
will never go away, it willalways be there. Even if you
come up become a lot of a doctoror a lawyer. And look at the
example of Jonathan Miller.Jonathan Miller was trained as a
medical doctor and became atheatre director. And that's
what he's known for. He's notreally known as a doctor, he's

(17:44):
known as a theater director.
It's like, it's like everythingit seems these days. And it's so
unnecessary to be so polarizingall of the time, arts versus
science, for example, you know,and rich and poor, black and
white, you know, it's all soabsurd, because everything is

(18:04):
about rich collaboration andrich exchange. And you must
find, as an educator, perhapsyou find an increasingly
difficult struggle in terms ofprotecting and defending the
arts because the government,their cuts are super
controversial around 50%affecting the arts and

(18:28):
education, and it's reallydevaluing the arts because they
are saying, oh, unless thisconverts into a high paid,
business leader type salary, it'snot worth having. So how are you
kind of negotiating thatstruggle as an educator?
Well, as an as an educator, my Ifeel my role basically, is to

(18:53):
inspire young students to becritical to question to not
accept the status quo tochallenge the status quo.
Otherwise, what are you doing?What how are you contributing to
the development of society, and,you know, differences crucial,
but we have a fear ofdifference, we have a fear of

(19:14):
something that's different fromwhat we kind know. And so you're
really trying to empowerstudents and young people to
embrace that. And that comesfrom their own identities. And I
will tell students quitebluntly, listen, when I was when
I did my first degree, I didn'tpay for it. So I don't think you

(19:35):
should have to pay for it.Because education is not a
privilege. It's a right. It'syour right to be educated. But
unfortunately, education hasbecome a privilege now, and you
do notice in higher education,and I'm going to say a form of
cultural apartheid. And so, whenI went to university we had a

(19:57):
few people, students who camefrom black and white from
working class backgrounds,that's become increasingly
difficult now. And for a lot ofstudents, you know, they're
thinking, Okay, why am I goingto go to university, I finished
my degree, and then I'm lumberedwith this debt for the rest of
my life. And I think socially,that really kind of puts off a

(20:20):
lot of other people who wouldotherwise be entitled, I think,
to benefit from highereducation. The other thing is
this equation that you get adegree equals a job in the
humanities, it doesn't.Education is about your
development, as a person, notabout a job, whatever you're
going to do later on is reallyup to you. But you know, the

(20:43):
degree does not equal a job,there's no job waiting for you
at the end of the degree, unlesspossibly, you're doing science.
But even that is difficult. Ialso think we face the challenge
now that in schools, the arts,the arts are being removed. But
then, each government alwaysfears artists, because artists

(21:06):
are a reflection back on societywhen we reflect back onto
society. And we've raisedquestions, and we're subversive,
and we're transgressive. Youknow, writers around the world
are imprisoned or killed,artists are killed for what they
say. So within this country,there has always been a kind of
tension between the arts, theartists, and what they're going

(21:30):
to say. And they're going tochallenge the status quo. And
often, whatever government itdoesn't matter what persuasion
government it is, are threatenedby that. So I think there's a
kind of hidden agenda here in away of removing the arts from
from from from schools. Youknow, because you're told was

(21:52):
the present government thatwithin the national curriculum,
anything that's seen as anticapitalist? What does that mean,
anti capitalist? Well, actually,you might as well remove the
whole curriculum.
A colonially led curriculum. Let'sshut all the

(22:16):
schools down.
Exactly. So young people,children and young people are
missing out. They're missingout. Because one of the key
areas and I think if I teachhistory as well, is history.
We're in a time now wherehistory is so important to
understand, politically, thedark times we're going in now,

(22:38):
is not new. We've been herebefore. Okay. And but unless
you're in connecting withhistory, you won't understand
see the patterns. It's not thathistory necessarily repeats
itself. But there are patterns,we can see patterns. And, you
know, there are some crucialissues here in the 21st century,
that a younger generation willhave they're going to have to

(22:59):
deal with. One of them is theclimate crisis. We already in
the it's not going to happen.It's already here. The climate
if you go around the world, youknow, I was in the Caribbean a
few weeks ago. And the thingthat they fear there is the more
increased power of hurricanes,the destructive power, which are
getting worse, annually. Okay?We're going to find lots of

(23:25):
people who lives in areas whichare threatened by rising sea
levels, they're going to have tomove they're going to become
refugees. So on a human level,we have to come to terms with
the fact of movement of humansover the next 100 years this
century. You know, and sendingpeople to Rwanda is not addressing

(23:47):
the issue.
No, it's endlesslydepressing that choices and
policies, you know, they stillchoose cruelty, in effect,
because the sooner everyoneunderstands that we are, in

(24:08):
effect, are all migrants throughclimate change, alone, climate
change, impact alone, and tostart understanding from a
humane perspective, what thatmeans for everybody would
hopefully remove a lot ofcruelty and in terms of how
people are viewed. There are somany prejudices, aren't there. I

(24:33):
mean, so for example, when wewere just talking about the arts
curriculum at schools beingslashed, being removed, and I
think for very sinisterpurposes and yet actually, the
Arts Council has published thatthe arts contribute 8.5 billion
to the UK economy, it's anoutright prejudice. And when you

(24:57):
talk about history, how is itthat black history is optional.
It's the same as howeverworthwhile campaigns can be,
Black History Month is aslimited as women's hour. And I'm

(25:21):
sorry, but as a woman, an houris not going to cut it, and
I'm sure a month isn't going tocut it for the black community.
No. You know, for me,I have an issue with Black
History Month, I understand theprinciple and it's important.
But in the long run, the widerpicture is that we are it's all
part we're all part of history.We are all interconnected. In

(25:44):
terms of history. You know,there was a very famous cultural
theorist from Jamaica, StuartHall, who passed away, he said,
once said, We are here becauseyou were there. We are here
because you were there. We arehere, you know, my parents
generation who came to what'scalled a, you know, the postwar

(26:05):
Windrush generation. We're here,because Britain had a colonial
relationship in the Caribbean,in India, in Africa. That's why
we're here. Right, my parentsgeneration saw themselves as
British citizens, so they knew more about England
than the English, they grew upwith a colonial education. You

(26:27):
know, they read poetry fromWordsworth to Yeats, okay. They
did not see themselves asimmigrants, they were coming
here to help the mother country,you know, rebuild after the
destruction of the Second WorldWar. You know, they would, they
saw themselves as Commonwealthcitizens coming here, that's

(26:51):
really important to understand,you know, that, that that
connection, and that connectionis not new. Because there's been
a black presence in this countryfor at least 500 years, some
people will say, we go back tothe Romans. So this
interconnection has always beenhere. And that's why history is

(27:11):
so important to understand that,yes, to understand the patterns
of history, to understand thatwhat is happening now is not
new. As I say, we've been herebefore, if we think about, you
know, the whole Black LivesMatter movement that came after,
well, the Black Lives Mattermovement was always there but

(27:34):
the way that the world hasreacted to the killing the
police killing of George Floyd,we can go back to the 60s, and
the killing of Emmett Till, inAmerica, the same similar global
reaction to another human beingbeing brutalized like that. So

(27:55):
you know, this is why history isimportant to understand that.
And what is then as anindividual, what is your
position in relation to thathistory? How, where were you in
that position? What's your, whatis your role? Because, you know,
we, we, we have ancestors. And Ithink within the black

(28:15):
communities, ancestors arereally important, remembering
them, remembering theirstruggles, you know, both my
parents have gone now. Butthat's why the front room is
still very important. Because ina way, we are continuing that
those traditions, and the thingabout art the question of can

(28:35):
art save us? Yes, it can.Because you mentioned the Arts
Council talking about 8 billion.Well, what about the wellbeing
that arts gives? That'scountless, you can't, how can
you measure that, in terms ofhuman self care and human
wellbeing? During the pandemic,many people have many people

(28:58):
have been affected by mentalhealth. One of the things that's
helped them is art is the kindof creative expression. It's
very, it's very difficult tomeasure that. So you can't you
can't erase, you can't eraseart, it's going to be there. And
you're going to find childrenand young people are going to

(29:21):
express themselves creatively,regardless of what's on the
curriculum. This is a human formof expression that's been here
for 1000s of years. Yeah, so youcan't kill it, it's impossible.
You can't kill it you can't killit. But it but obviously, we
started being on the curriculumwithout lack of more support, it

(29:43):
makes it much more difficult.And it makes it much more
difficult for young peoplethinking as a kind of pathway
for developing maybe a career ora practice. But I'm always
encouraging young people to justfollow their follow their
aspirations follow their dreams.
Yeah. And that emphasis onopenness, being able to ask

(30:05):
questions which the arts letsyou explore, hence my interest
in the role of curiosity andcuriosity not being closed down.
You know, we were talking abouthow limiting it is, obviously,
to remove arts from thecurriculum, that how strange it

(30:26):
is that black history isoptional. And how campaigns can
be useful, but limiting. So wementioned Black History Month or
Women's Hour, for example, whenthings should just be fully
integrated. And I wondered whatkind of interventions you'd be

(30:49):
interested in seeing to helpchange that whether it's from
the history or the artists pointof view in education?
Well, I mean, I think we've,there's, there's a
particular event that's happenedin America recently that people
may think it may not affect ushere, but it has implications,
which is the anti abortion lawin America. Yeah, the removal of

(31:13):
rights. Yeah, yeah.Now, that is really quite
serious, that is really quiteserious, because what's been
said here is that women do nothave any control over their
bodies. Now, this is a seriousissue, because what it means
what the implications are, isthat it then gives oxygen for

(31:34):
other people around the world tosay, well, actually, yes, let's
remove abortion. Not only that,let's introduce other kind of
patriarchal kind of laws, which,you know, kind of pulls back all
the achievements over the past500 years of women's
independence. Yeah, you can seethis connection now also, around

(31:58):
gender in terms of, you know, wethe lots of countries where
homosexuality is illegal, itjust gives oxygen to those kinds
of regressive conservative kindof policies. Yeah. And we have
to be very careful that, youknow, some within education, for

(32:19):
instance, that certain we haveto protect certain rights. And
so as an intervention, I wouldwant to do a session with young
people around the history ofabortion laws, and how abortion,
the history of abortion, one ofthe significant things, I tell

(32:39):
students, that during the 60s,right, the arrival of the
contraceptive pill, transformedwomen's lives. Yeah, transformed
because before that women areafraid to get pregnant. But now
women with the pill, could nowenjoy sex. And that's really
important. That's, that's,that's really important in

(33:01):
terms of, and this is importantfor young women, as well,
particularly in the digital age,where you hear lots of stories
of, you know, young girls beingaffected by trying to look
perfect on social media. Weshould be doing some work
around that, around how younggirls and young people are

(33:23):
affected by social media weneed. And that's you could look
at that within the context ofsexual sexual discrimination
laws, abortion laws and soforth. I would love to do a
workshop on it with young people.
Yeah.Yeah. Yeah. Because

(33:45):
it's such a clear challengearound equality again, you know,
it's so regressive. And I thinkyour your work Waiting for
Myself to Appear picks up on onsome of this as well in terms
of, you know, women, theirbodies, how their bodies are

(34:06):
used, and who makes thosedecisions. I wondered if you
might like to outline some ofthat for listeners who may not
know about that piece of workyou've produced?
Okay. Okay, so Waiting forMyself to Appear, is a film. And
that's actually at the Museum ofthe Home. Now, it's a free film,
a free screen installation ofIt's a film of a performance

(34:27):
piece that I wrote and directed,and it's a one woman show, and
it's two characters. A woman whoworks a black woman who works in
a museum, a fictional Museum atthe moment discovers in the
archive, that a black nurse escorted a young white woman to
England, and this white womanbecame the wife of the chaplain
at the, the Geffrye Armshouse during the late 19th

(34:51):
century. So that's historicalfact. There was a blackness. But
I then did some research andfind out well, what kind of
nurse was she because she came,they came from Jamaica. And we
discovered that black women atthat time were not nurses in the
sense of helping sick people.They were actually wet nurses. So

(35:13):
this black nurse who escortedthis young white girl from
Jamaica, Spanish Jamaica,was her wet nurse, which meant
that that white young, youngwhite child was weaned on the
black woman's breast milk. Now,this is an important history to
understand. Because during the19th century, breastfeeding was

(35:33):
considered disgusting. Itmay be very strange to see now to
hear and understand now. So alot of middle class women,
basically, their children wereweaned by wet nurses. And they're
not just black, but also whitewomen as well. But it tells us
something about how women'sbodies have been exploited,

(35:55):
particularly black women'svoices through colonialism. And
there's a direct connection herewith the NHS, and
the way that the NHS in the postwar era, was really kind of
built and helped with theassistance of Caribbean women
who were nurses. And theyexperienced a lot of racism.

(36:17):
Because, you know, as midwives,for instance, they helped give
birth to a lot of white babies,even though the white patient
said don't touch me. And then wefind that during the pandemic,
we find that a lot of people whodied were frontline
workers who had to go into workwere people of color. And this

(36:40):
connects to Brexit, because alot of these people were
immigrants. And so they helpedus to live and survive and
taking care of us but on theother side of it, they're being
told that they're illegal. Andthey shouldn't be here.
Yeah, it's Windrush all overagain.
It's Windrush all over again. Sothe film taps into that history,

(37:04):
but also connects it with nowwith what is going on now, in
terms of black women's bodies.But hopefully, also, I hope that
people can connect with it on ahuman level, you know, in terms
of women in terms of theirindependence, so it's a really

(37:25):
it's a short film, it's onlyabout 20 minutes. But um, yeah,
I'm, I'm hoping people can seeit at the Museum of the
Home. And whilst we're talkingabout women in particular, I'm
interested in terms of your own family, whether it's
your, your mum, grandparents, orsisters, the women closest to

(37:46):
you. What you felt you witnessedin terms of the courage, they
had to find that might that maybe your point of view as a child
growing up or as anadult, but what kind of courage
you've had to see them drum upto constantly stand up against

(38:09):
discrimination?
Yeah. Well, you know, that's agood question, Paula. I mean, I
grew up and my mother was a veryfierce, strong woman, you know,
she held on to two three jobs,you know, including a cleaning
job. To ensure that we went, wedidn't go without, you know,

(38:30):
growing up, I didn't realize wewere working class
because we, you know, we hadeverything really we had, you
know, we didn't want foranything really, in a sense. So
I only realized that Oh, workingclass were poor. But that's also
because of my mother. I had afather as well, and he worked
hard. But you know, it was mymother, basically, who was
really strong, who hadresilience, who, you know, we

(38:54):
had, I have three othersiblings, two sisters. And I can
see what they are now and whatthey do. One of them, you know,
works in America, she runs herown kind of recruitment agency.
Another one is a CD. She's asister in a hospital. That sense
of independence comes from mymother. And then also it's my

(39:14):
extended family, I was grew upwith really strong women around
me. And I think that's kind ofinfluenced me in tapping into
the kind of feminine side of myown side as a man. And also I
grew up during the 70s and 80s,when feminism was on the rise,

(39:37):
and black feminism was on that.So I was in fact, I was affected
by that. I was influenced bythat. And also awareness from my
from the beginning of mypractice at 16. You know, the
director, who directed most ofmy plays was gay. So I was a
man who was aware of sexualityfrom that early age and I've

(40:00):
come to understand that youknow, sexuality is a spectrum.
It's not a binary, you know,it's not about being gay or not
gay, it we all kind of exploringour own sexuality. And I always
say, Well, I'm straight, Ithink, because sexuality is
about exploration and discoveryof who you are. Yeah. So from a

(40:22):
young age, I've always had anopenness about gender and
sexuality. And I embrace that,in my work in my practice, in a
sense.
Have you had to be brave, toembrace that in your practice,
because there are so manyobvious stereotypes aren't
there, and especially if youwere to consider stereotyping

(40:42):
around black masculinity as amale? Have you ever had to feel
particularly courageous,socially, or artistically in
order to be able to express yourown vulnerabilities?
I suppose so. I mean, the thingis, is that, you know, as a

(41:03):
black man, you're always beenreminded of that every single
day, you reminded of that everysingle day. And so from my own
research, my own understandingmy own kind of, you know,
exploration of, of thatconstruction, often that
construction of blackmasculinity has got nothing to
do with, it's a colonial racistkind of conception, you know,

(41:24):
black man, I meant to be good atsports there, you know,
hypersexual, they can run fast,that added all of those
stereotypes, and you have tonegotiate that on a daily basis.
And it's really got nothing todo with me as an individual. But
we have to negotiate thosetropes. And so I've done work
around, I've written sometheater around exploring that.

(41:47):
And that allows me to kind ofreconstruct a sense, what does
it mean, in terms ofmasculinity, one of the key
areas you mentionedvulnerability, and it's not just
for black men, but for menperiod, we tend to we're where
we are trained to be emotionallyconstipated. We don't know how
to express ourselvesemotionally. And that's a key

(42:07):
and part of expressing yourselfemotionally is expressing your
vulnerability. Fear, I'm scared,I don't know what to do. I feel,
you know, weak. That's astrength, I've considered to be
able to do that. But in apatriarchal society, we're not
taught that we're taught that,you know, is a man to express

(42:28):
vulnerability to cry is a signof weakness as being a wimp.
These are the struggles thatyoung men and men, at my age
have to have to negotiate allthe time. So I'm always pushing
that, in my practice, to explorethose kinds of questions, to
provide that space where mencompete, feel safe. Feel safe

(42:53):
with each other, to expressthose emotions.
That's an ongoing, that's anongoing work. That's ongoing
work.
And it's interesting talkingabout fear. And you mentioned
the the film director, SteveMcQueen earlier, because he
talks he talks veryinterestingly about fear as well

(43:15):
and how he makes fear hisfriends, because he knows it's
coming.
Yes, exactly. Because the one ofthe only ways to deal with fear
is to confront it. We have toconfront our fears. So this
question of, I've never reallyconsidered myself necessarily
courageous. As such, otherpeople may see that, but I'm

(43:36):
just going to do what I'm goingto do. And I'm going to say what
I'm going to say in the work.And so I do come from a
background, you know, ofcommunity arts, of doing stuff
that's maybe considered radical,or challenging the status quo.
You know, the theater that Imade in the past did was

(43:57):
transgressive, potentially, notonly for white people, but for
black people. But that's what myrole as an artist basically, is
to kind of go to places thatother people may be afraid to go
to kind of go to an embracethat. But in doing that, Paula,
you have to face your ownpersonal demons. I did a
residency years ago in the early90s. Working with people

(44:20):
affected and infected by HIV andAIDS. This was when HIV AIDS was
considered the gay plague, youknow. And we had to politicize
it. We had to have courage in asense, I didn't necessarily
think I was being courageous,but looking back, it probably
was transgressive. It wassubversive, the work we did. And

(44:42):
I remember in bringing over agroup from America, Afro
homos, postmodern AfricanAmerican homosexuals. And they
performed in Newcastle,where the residency was,
people might think, Oh, why wasMichael doing that? Is he gay?
Well, actually, I don't care.What'd you think I am actually,
yeah, I really don't care, Ireally don't care. I'm going to

(45:06):
do the work, I'm going to do thework that raises those kinds of
questions. And it is aboutsaving us. In a sense, it's
about enabling us to thinkdifferently. There is a power
when I do a show, and with theopening night, that power that
it has to transform people'slives to enable them to think

(45:26):
differently. It's a sweetfeeling, you know, that you have
and when you're kind of makingthe work and you're, you know,
it's painful, and you're goingthrough struggling and thinking,
why am I doing this to myself,you know, then you have the
opening night, and you see theeffect it has on people you
fully realize, that's what I dowhat I do. Why I do what I do to

(45:50):
have that effect on people.
Yeah, you're a liberator in manyways. You're helping create open
minds, the power of words, yourown curious external exploration
of life and the world throughwords, your plays. And equally

(46:15):
I'm interested in how thatcontributes to resilience, your
personal resilience, and alsoreflecting back on what you were
saying about you know, your mum,your sisters, but but you know,
the men in your life as well,your dad, your granddad, the
courage that was shown requiresa resilience doesn't it? And I

(46:40):
noticed that you've also spokenabout spiritual strength and
spiritual strength as a form ofresistance, which I thought was
really interesting, resistancesas a form of connection, in a
way, I wondered if you couldexpand on that for us?
Well, spirituality is a form ofresistance and spiritual make a
distinction here to religion,spirituality, and I mentioned

(47:04):
earlier about the acknowledgingand embracing our ancestors.
Yeah, both my parents are gonenow. But you know, they are ever
present in my life, and I grewup with my parents, my dad,
particularly talking aboutspirits. And in in Eastern
Caribbean, they call them jumbiesin Jamaica, call them tepees. In

(47:26):
Europe, they probably call themghosts. But these are not things
to be afraid of. These are notthings that because, you know,
if my if my if my parents,they're gone, if my mum walked
in now, I wouldn't be afraid.Yeah, I wouldn't be afraid, not
a ghost, she's a spirit, andshe's come to help me and guide
me. And so there's thisunderstanding, particularly in
the black world what spirits are,there's a positive energy to

(47:51):
that. And then when thatconnects with resilience, you
know, the Windrush generation,my parents generation, have all
been seen as quiteresilient. Now, that's
important, but also what is theprice we pay for resilience?
Often it means we aresuppressing sometimes our own

(48:11):
emotions to survive. And so Ithink when we think about
resilience, we must also thinkabout the price that we pay
emotionally. Because my parentsgeneration, the Windrush
generation went through trauma.And a lot of their experiences
were unspeakable, they have, theyweren't able to speak with them,

(48:31):
because they just had tosurvive. My parents never really
talked about the racism in theirexperience, because the
experience outside in the world,in the workplace, on the street
arriving here before they hadchildren, because in a sense,
they were trying to protect us.They were trying to say, you're
growing up here, you're born inthis country, you're entitled
you have, you know, every rightas citizens in this country. But

(48:55):
I think I then wonder, what isthe price they paid for that
resilience in suppressing, thatthose emotions suppressing that,
that trauma. So one of thethings I'm interested in now is
speaking about trauma, the onlyway you can deal with trauma is
to talk about it, you know, itwon't go away unless you talk

(49:16):
about it, because that's part ofthe healing. And within that,
spirituality, may be an aid tothat. So you know, it's
something I'm quite interestedin. And as I get older now, I'm
becoming much more aware of thatthis importance. I remember
doing a residency also workingwith cancer patients and people

(49:39):
affected by rheumatoidarthritis. And it was
interesting that sometimes theworking class people, right,
yeah, had an interesting outlookon life towards cancer, whereas
the middle class people is like,why is this happening to me?
I've done all of these things.I've achieved all these things.
I'm in a privileged position.Why have I got cancer now? Yeah,

(50:00):
As a sense of anger, and inresponse to disease and illness,
one of the things that helps youin your healing is your outlook
on life. Really? How do you viewlife? You know, do you see? Do
you see cancer maybe as just,you know, a negative, or another
chapter, another challenge inyour life that you have to deal

(50:22):
with?
Yeah, it certainly seems. And Ithink you're referring to the
Waiting Room in terms of thisresidency, because I wanted to
ask you about that, because itis very interesting, what you
witnessed in terms of thosedifferent expressions of pain
and those different reactions,because it seems that perhaps a

(50:43):
working class expression,perhaps was much more around
acceptance, and perhaps a moreprivileged position was a far
greater wrestle with a sense ofentitlement. You know, why me? I
am entitled to be well, is thattoo broad? Or is that what you

(51:06):
felt you were tapping into?
There's something in there. Imean, I think I've just, I just
observed that difference thatdynamic, because, you know, I
worked with a lot of peoplewhile in the in on the ward on
the hospital world why they werehaving chemotherapy, for
instance, okay. And often justhaving a conversation with

(51:26):
individuals, because whilethey're doing chemotherapy,
which takes hours, sometimesthey'd be on their own. They'd
be on they'd have no one therewith them. And so I just went
around to different patients andsaid, can we just talk, and
often we don't talk about thedisease, we just talk about
their lives. Interestingly,during that time, I did their

(51:47):
residency, both my parentspassed, and I kind of think,
what's this? Hold on a minute,professionally, I'm working in
hospitals. And personally, I'min hospitals, and am I being
told a message here? What's thisabout? And I had to embrace it,
I had to kind of come to termsand embrace it, in a sense, that
is this fate. The fact that I'mworking with cancer patients,

(52:10):
and people are ill, andmeanwhile, my parents are dying.
And so I wrote, I use theWaiting Room to talk about my
own bereavement, my own sense ofhealing my own, coming to terms
and acceptance of their ownpassing. Because during the,

(52:31):
during the residency, quite afew people I develop
relationship with passed away,interestingly, wasn't often the
people who you think were reallyill. It was often the people who
seem to all and ostensibly to bewell, they were managing their
cancer. And then they went theirpaths. And those people who who
were a bit more ill, theysurvived. It was an interesting

(52:55):
experience. It was aninteresting experience. And I do
remember one cancer patient, alovely woman, Irish woman,
saying disease is about dis-ease, you know, this
is in your life. What kind ofstresses Do you have? There is a
correlation between stress,right, and rheumatoid arthritis,

(53:16):
a lot of the flare ups a lot ofthe people encountered who had
rheumatoid arthritis, were veryangry people, very angry. And
they were very determinedpeople, but also sometimes the
things that affected them andtheir flare ups when they were
trying to do too much, often,and they were stressed, since

(53:36):
this is connection between, youknow, in a sense, your mind and
your body and your spirit, andyour well being. Yeah, I firmly
believe that if stress can killyou.
I mean, that sounds like anincredibly intense year that
residency seems to have beensharing trauma, going through

(54:00):
your own very deep trauma, youknow, considering it's your
parents, you were losing. But ofcourse, trauma, even though
you know, youcould use the residency in a
way, as you were saying thatcontributed to healing. But
trauma isn't something thatheals easily or quickly,

(54:24):
necessarily. And of course,there's even more awareness now
about intergenerational trauma.And it's interesting that you're
putting more of your ownattention on trauma now, how are
you doing that? Considering? Youmust have your own trauma
sensitivity, your own triggersto take care of all of the time?

(54:49):
That's a really good question. Imean, I think one has to deal
with as an artist, I always say,for instance, with workshops if
I'm asking participants to jumpin the pool, metaphorically To
do an exercise, I have to jumpin first. So in the practice, I
have to go through explore myown trauma, if I'm going to

(55:09):
invite other people to exploretheir trauma. And one of the
themes I've been interested in,in this to this idea of
intergenerational trauma is thequestion of discipline. It's a
theme I've kind of been workingon exploring. Discipline is a
complex issue. But most peoplewhen they think of this, or when
you say discipline, they thinkof corporal punishment. So you

(55:32):
know, being smacked when youwere younger. And there's a lot
of people say, Well, you know, Iwas smacked, I got, I got beaten
by my parents, that didn't do meany harm. And they, they have
this laugh about it. Well, Iwant to question that. And I
want to question why is therethis preponderance of violence?
Within the black world? Wheredoes that come from? Is that a

(55:54):
legacy of slavery? We because wewere brutalized, and that, you
know, violence is in our lives,and not just kind of violence,
physical violence, there's alsosymbolic violence. So I'm
interested in how this idea ofdiscipline, what does
discipline mean? How do wediscipline what is self discipline

(56:15):
It's, it's a it's abig area, but it's a fascinating
area. Is it about beingcivilized? This idea of
respectability? What is thatabout? Is that a form of
discipline? So yeah, I aminterested in that. And also, I
think, at this moment, you know,like two weeks ago, they had the

(56:37):
Windrush day. And some peoplesee it as a celebration, I don't
see it as a celebration, I seeit as a commemoration. Because
in the afterlife of Windrushpeople are now as of my age are
being told that they are illegalimmigrants, even though they've
been here most of their lives.They are being deported. They

(57:00):
have been incarcerated indetention centers, they are
forfeiting any health benefits,they're losing their homes,
they're losing their jobs. So Idon't think there's anything to
celebrate. They were asked tocome. This is the only country
they know, you know. And thisfor me, it's not just about the
Windrush generation, it's awider question of migrants of

(57:24):
refugees of asylum seekers.Yeah, they have their own
trauma. Often people don'trealize when you come to a
country, like here or anywhere,you know, you can't go back
home, you know, you have to find some way of surviving, and
you come with nothing. What isit? What is it those those those

(57:46):
people have what do theybring, often they bring a sense
of aspiration, goes back to thefront room, they have a sense of
a drive to do better for theirfamilies, for their children,
they're sending money back home,you know, to help their families
back home, sometimes if theycan. This is really a kind of

(58:08):
lesson in kind of human, forwant of a better word
resilience, really. But there'sa price we pay for that. There's
a price we pay for that, youknow, along the way. And this is
where unpacking and speaking totrauma is really important.
Yeah. Because when you think youcan live with an identity, that

(58:29):
your identity alone poses a riskthat it's a target for attack
every day. And let's say maybethat was worse in the 40s, the
50s, the 60s, but neverthelesscan continue. It's incredibly
depleting. And it's one of thereasons I'm interested in re

(58:50):
examining what courage isbecause of course, we all tend
to think of that as a bit oftrumpet blowing, or heroics.
It's always about life savingstuff. But I'm not interested in
the trumpet blowing, I'minterested in recognizing that
there are many, many, many dailyacts of courage that those of us

(59:11):
who have far greater barriersthan other people have to be in
possession of, and we need toperhaps recognize that more to
afford more self respect interms of our wellbeing.
Yes, right. That's right. Thepandemic for me has shown us the
human courage. If you've reallyshown us human courage, yeah.

(59:34):
How, you know, in a sense, thissense of community helping each
other, being kind to each other,being human to each other. You
know, helping that neighbor thatyou didn't know, you know, they
can't go out but you bring somefood for them, and making sure
that they're okay, taking careof the vulnerable, the older

(59:56):
people the sick. That's reallyCome out, we've really shown
that we, you know, as humanbeings, we should be proud of
what's come out of, you know,perversely, I suppose from from
the pandemic, and it's somethingwe should build on or not lose.
And it's not about going back tothe new normal, whatever that
is, because I think that normalwasn't one I wasn't happy with

(01:00:19):
anyway. Yeah,
I was gonna say no thanks. No.
It's a new way. It's a new wayof being. And I think I just
want to encourage that, becausewe're in a time of a lot of
grief. But there's also a lot ofgrievance. And I don't think the
powers that be help it. But youknow, I sense that people have

(01:00:41):
just got on with what they haveto do to survive. Because COVID
is not going away. And so caringwith for each other, for with
each other by each other isstill fundamental. It's still
fundamental. Yeah. And thattakes courage does take courage,

(01:01:01):
human courage. And we've seen somuch of that so much.
Yeah. And maybe that reflects,again, in terms of what we were
saying earlier, with Black LivesMatter and the response to the
brutal murder of George Floyd,the fact that that was something
that could be witnessed livethat that is shifting

(01:01:23):
visibility, at least itdemonstrates there is a unity,
there's a common humanity thatstill wants to be known, you
know, whoever you are there isthat that sense of solidarity.
And actually, from your point ofview, I imagine that's an
interesting shift to witness interms of digital. Because now

(01:01:49):
history has a chance to expressitself live, the truth can be
told live, and it can be told byanybody. And that's quite an
interesting dynamic, isn't it?When you think we have a
problem, if you like, currently,with museums, you know, many
people can say, Well, where am Iin here? And what's locked away

(01:02:10):
in the archive. And when wementioned your work earlier with
Esther Niles, you know, you putyour hand into that archive, and
you pulled out a woman, a blackwoman's story, for example. So
yeah, I'm very interestedactually, in in that shifting

(01:02:30):
dynamic. From your point ofview, on one hand, we still need
to put our hands inside thesearchives and pull out stories
and let different people responddifferently to what these
collections possess. But also,what you see the gifts are, if
you like, from digital in termsof liberating how our history is

(01:02:52):
told. Yeah,
I mean, I think I mean, that's areally good point, Paula. I
mean, in a sense, the wholething with George Floyd and
Black Lives Matter, was reallyonly in a sense the world
acknowledging what people ofcolor have been experiencing for
generations. So it's Welcome tothe truth. Welcome to the
reality now, in a sense, this iswhat's been going on, we've been

(01:03:13):
talking about it forgenerations, but now you can see
it in on a, on a video screen ona phone. And that is the power
of the digital world. You know,there's a lot of disparaging
ideas about social media, yes,because social media is the
street. And evil exists. Butthere's a lot of good in there

(01:03:38):
as well. And I'm interested inthe good and the power that the
digital media can provide, inkind of sharing information that
we would not ever be able toaccess. You know, a lot of
younger people, a lot of peoplenow rely on digital media for
the access for information andnews. Okay. It just says this is

(01:04:00):
same before the pre internet,one has to be used be
discerning. One has to use one'sown discretion. Do your own
research, do your own reading,do not rely on information that
all information is just neutral.Neutral mean, information is not

(01:04:20):
necessarily neutral. You have tomake your own critical judgments
about that. Because we're inwe're in a time of so called
post truth and conspiracytheories. Well, they've always
been there. They've always beenthere. It's just that in a
sense, some people have usedsocial media to weaponize that,

(01:04:41):
okay. That so that's the worldwe're in now. But at the same
time, people have also benefitedfrom the digital world in terms
of accessing information,connecting with people globally.
That's wonderful. That isamazing. It's allows afford them
a form of freedom and democracy,social democracy. And I want to

(01:05:02):
hold on to that those principlesin a sense as we move forward.
But also understand that weshould have a healthy
relationship with digital media,which is turn off the phone,
turn off the phone occasionallyturn it off. Because it is it is

(01:05:25):
really in a pumps human error.We are connected to machines, we
did depend on machines. But tounderstand that we need to
distance ourselves from machinesas well. Yeah, yeah, we need to
switch them off. And thenswitching them off. We then
notice nature, we then noticethe details of nature, because

(01:05:47):
we're connected to nature. We,you know, we noticed each other,
you know, instead of also on thetube, put down the phone, look
at the other person who's nextto you on the tube. You know,
they may be going through somestruggles you may not be aware
of. Yeah. So put down the phone,because not all the truth comes

(01:06:09):
through the actual truth comesthrough real human connection.
Basics. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. It's a criticalpoint about remembering what
openness is what it looks like,what it feels like, and, and
that important role ofcuriosity, you know, to remain
open and not just screen gazingand locked into your phone, for

(01:06:30):
example.
Exactly. Because, yeah,curiosity brings empathy.
Yeah. So, you know, everythingwe've talked about, obviously,
around the role of arts andculture, battling obvious

(01:06:51):
barriers of various forms ofdiscrimination, but the role
that, you know, the arts has toplay. And I'd also like to pick
up on your work around music.And, and again, of course, this,
this was instantly significantwith the front room, but also

(01:07:12):
since then, your work in termsof Sonic Vibrations, the
anthology, and talking about thesound system culture, and I was
really interested in talking toyou about that more, and in
terms of how you were able to,to identify equity in the dance
space.

(01:07:33):
Yeah. Okay. So I'm from thefront room, the radiogram I
mentioned earlier about thesignificance of the radiogram
that begins the houseparties, blues parties, but also
sound systems. And well, for megrowing up when I was a
teenager, you know, I'd go outdancing, and I'd follow sound
systems. And you know, soundsystems are really important in

(01:07:58):
terms of the development ofBritish popular music. You know,
everything from the genres withmusic, genres, drill, grime,
drum, and bass, garage, all ofthose genres, but they all come
out of black music. And theAfrican American philosopher
said that, one of the hugethings that has been given to

(01:08:19):
humanity is Black is music.Because music is a universal
language. And black music hasemerged out of a background of
catastrophe, racial catastrophe.Yeah, to create something that
that is sweet and giveshim that gives freedom. And I
wanted to embrace that in insome of the work so we did an

(01:08:41):
exhibition called Rockers Soulheadsand Lovers about sound
systems back in the day, theanalog sound systems, but it
tends to be a quite male,patriarchal space of, of boys
with toys. And when we did SonicVibrations that I was invited by
Writers Mosaic, and it's areally great website that people

(01:09:01):
listeners should visit. And it'san initiative led by writers of
colors connected to the RoyalLiterary Fund. So I was invited
to create an online multimediaand phonology. And so a lot of
people are invited to be part ofthat. That work artists,
writers, people in the soundartists, but interestingly, a

(01:09:22):
lot of women because there arewomen sound system, women sound
systems, in fact that my 50thbirthday party was a woman sound
system. There's somethinginteresting that women bring into
play in music, they kind of tendto more play for the people.
Well, sometimes a DJ for meshould play for the people not

(01:09:45):
play for themselves. I don'tknow if you've ever been to a
club or a dance and the dj isjust playing it's like boring.
Yeah. But so I've deliberatelyconsciously brought in women
sounds systems but also therewas a conversation that we
recorded of some five blackwomen talking about their

(01:10:05):
experience of the dancehall,because the dancehall can be a
quite patriarchal space where,particularly in reggae, women
are often waiting to be asked todark for a dance. There's a
notion of women should bedressed in a particular way when
they go out to dance. Yeah, andin a sense, that's quite
patriarchal in a sense, and wethink of different music genres.

(01:10:29):
Reggae, yeah, can be quiteliberating, but people may feel
that soul funk can be a bitmore free. So we're exploring
that we're exploring also, someof the rituals, there's a,
there's a classic reggae tune bySusan Cadogan called
Hurts So Good. When you begin tounpack the lyrics Hurts So Good
What does that mean? Hurts SoGood. You know, is it is a

(01:10:52):
relationship breakup, it hurtsso good to be abused. You know,
there's a kind of sense of painand pleasure, there's a
pleasure, because you could readhurts so good from a sexual
point of view. But you couldread Hurts So Good from an
emotional point of view as well.And so we were interested in
exploring those kinds of themes.Curious about, What is that

(01:11:13):
song? What does that shoe mean?In a sense, if we really what is
it a metaphor for? And, and thenwe had dub poets, who were part
of the anthology are one of thelate great poets, Jean Binta
Breeze from Jamaica.
I think I spoke to her a fewmonths before she passed away.

(01:11:34):
And she, you know, she agreed toinvolve one of include one of
her classic poems, ReadingRavens, or what's also called a
Mad Woman poem. And she talksabout this, a woman in her poem
in her particular poem, who hasmental health problems, and she
has this radio in her head. Andshe was sectioned, you

(01:11:55):
know, and sent into a mentalhome it's a wonderful, powerful
piece. So I'm quite proud of itit was quite big. It's in two
parts on Writers Mosaic but I invite people to visit it
because, and take your time inreading and listening to some of
the interviews that we did, aspart of the anthology. And it's

(01:12:18):
also bringing this idea of thatthis the importance of music,
and black music, because in the20th century, the first
recordings on the gramophonewere of black voices. And what
you find is that as musicdevelops through the 20th
century, if this so, you know,in the 70s, we have the
emergence of computertechnology, it was really people

(01:12:42):
like Stevie Wonder, Lee ScratchPerry, who are pushing the
limits of what the machine cando in terms of sound technology,
that create the genres that weare benefiting from now. So
music is always aboutinnovation, pushing the limits
of what the machine can do,pushing that dial, it says you

(01:13:03):
shouldn't go into the red willactually push it into the red
and see what emerges. And that'sthe same now, some thinking of
like artists like KendrickLamar, who was at
Glastonbury is more than arapper. He's a poet. You know,
there's some I mean, I don'tknow if it was on BBC the other

(01:13:23):
day with Kendrick Lamar and hisnew album called Mr. Morale and
the Big Steppers, which wascreated under the pandemic. And
in it, what's wonderful in thispiece is creating his racing
facing his own fears. He's beingcurious about what is life now
like? It's a complex, layered,sophisticated body of work. And

(01:13:48):
when we think of hip hop, it'simportant to remember that hip
hop is not all about kind of,you know, being gone. Guns, gun
violence, misogyny. That's acommercial aspect of hip hop.
You know, other aspects of hiphop are much more fought for
much more interested in thepolitics much more interested in

(01:14:08):
addressing justice, anddifference and so forth. Yeah,
yeah. So yeah, I always playmusic. I always love to dance.
I'm a raver. A raver. I'vealways been a raver once a raver
always a raver. I love it.
Music and Dance seems to alwaysbe one of the most successful

(01:14:33):
spaces in many ways to bringpeople together. And, and it's
really interesting what you werementioning about hip hop and
again, the stereotypes that gowith that. And I'll just quickly
mention, Otis Mensah so who Iinterviewed in season one. The
UK's first hip hop poetlaureate, mixed race,

(01:14:53):
young guy in the City ofSheffield, who very bravely
challenges all of thosestereotypes of masculinity and
black masculinity and writes themost beautiful emotional, hip
hop, poetry and smashes all ofthose, those myths.
Yeah, that's right. And whereasthere is, we're in a time of a

(01:15:14):
term in hip hop. Now, becauseyou have people, artists like
Billy Porter, you know, who, youknow, who are pushing the ideas
of gender who are questioningmasculinity within hip hop,
because it's often been seen asa kind of hyper masculine space.
And, you know, women's presenceare only as guests. But the

(01:15:36):
women are women, hip hop artistsfrom Missy Elliott, Little Kim,
you know, even Rihanna orFierce, even Beyonce, are
fierce, you know, they're strongwomen. And so it's wonderful now
that, you know, that gender hasbeen quite a questioned, I've
had ideas of gender and actuallyraising the question, is gender

(01:15:57):
irrelevant? Is genderirrelevant? Really, in a sense,
isn't that relevant? We seem tobe defined by gender and wedded
to gender, but isn't thatrelevant. And that's what kind
of transgendered kind ofidentities are enabling us to
see that there has always been athird gender, it's always been
there as part of human history,it's not new. And when we also

(01:16:20):
think about rap, rap, is anancient practice that goes back
to the oral tradition that comesfrom Africa. So rap is no
different to, you know,toasting, or MC and in reggae,
you know, it's poetry. So yeah,it's poetry. And it's, you could
say it's performance poetry, orit's all tradition. It's very

(01:16:42):
similar. It's wonderful. It'swonderful to see these new
emerging artists, creating newwork and using the form, pushing
the form developing the form.Because music should never say
static. It should alwaysdevelop, innovate. And artists

(01:17:04):
be curious about, you know,well, okay, let's bring this
different sound here into this.Now, what does that do? And
artists like Kendrick Lamar aredoing that for me? Yeah, no.
Yeah. And it's entirely whatwhat you said earlier in the
interview, you know, that thecritical role the arts has, in
terms of development, and thatvalue is actually incalculable.

(01:17:29):
I can't thank you enough,Michael, for giving me so much
time today. I'm very aware,we've probably run over and I'm
very aware that I've still got100 questions. I don't want to I
don't want to becomeunreasonable. When
I'm fine. I'm cool.

(01:17:49):
Well, if you really don't mindon the music, subject, and
something else, I'll quicklyexplore, because I am really
stealing your time. But I was Iwas lucky and privileged enough
to have worked on some musicseries, where I was able to go

(01:18:14):
to America and interview lots ofjazz and blues, typically black
musicians, including legends. Imean, it's I mean, I almost
can't believe I'm saying it. Butpeople like Ray Charles and
Curtis Mayfield and IsaacHayes. Yeah. And of course,

(01:18:36):
it's endlessly mind blowing thatthese are people that succeed,
not just against all the odds,but against all the odds
imaginable. And yeah, I've oftenthought, you know, how, how
vital their stories are. And andI've also always wished, I'd had

(01:19:00):
the chance to talk to SammyDavis Jr. And that's because I
mean, I don't know if you'veever you've read his
autobiography, but it's just tooastounding for words, because by
Page six, it was the same asreading a rape account, because

(01:19:21):
Sammy was put in one of thefirst integrated military camps
or whatever the term is, but itmeant he was the only black
soldier and the the racism hesuffered is indescribable, and
it's too horrible to even talkabout. But of course, it was his

(01:19:41):
musicianship, his talent, hisperformance that mobilized and
rescued his survival in manyways. And then interestingly,
white men you know, FrankSinatra or Mediterranean as in
Dean Martin, you know, his hisItalian roots, you know, They
were very enabling in terms ofrefusing to play to segregated

(01:20:04):
audiences and insisting thatSammy Davis Jr. was on stage
with them. And all of that ismassively interesting. But I
often wish I'd had the privilegeto talk to Sammy Davis Jr. about
his experience. I mean, though,I don't know if you know this,
but there were even race riotsbecause he married a blonde

(01:20:25):
white Swedish woman. Yep. So thethe reason I wanted to share,
all of that is because the wayyou're able to include music in
your work, and almost remindpeople, in fact, what you were

(01:20:47):
saying earlier, the importanceof remembering, you know,
whether it's the ancestralrelationship with music, or just
generational or your parents orthe front room, you know, the
importance of reclaiming thatspace as a music space, because
outside, you were still beingsegregated. It's a huge, huge

(01:21:07):
area. And I was just reallyinterested in how starkly you
see those barriers now. Or howhappily shifting, if you like,
you see those barriers nowthrough through music?

(01:21:30):
That's a really interestingquestion. I mean, you know,
figures like Sammy Davis, Jr.Ella Fitzgerald, Louie
Armstrong, the whole list can goon, it comes back to this
question that the music they'recreated comes out of pain, you
know, blues comes out of pain.But then in doing that, you

(01:21:52):
create something beautiful. Andthroughout the 20th century, and
into the 21st century, therelationship between white music
and black music is inintegrated, its intrinsic. So
you think of Elvis Presley,Elvis Presley was made popular
in America at a time when whiteAmerica did not want girls

(01:22:15):
having orgasms over a black manlike Little Richard, because
it's a little late Richard whopreceded Elvis Presley, a lot of
the tunes that you know, ElvisPresley kind of created of white
versions of black music thatstill goes on that is still
going on. This whole issue isnow on TikTok around the kind of

(01:22:36):
a cultural appropriation ofblack music and black dance that
is still going on. It's evenit's even more intensified now.
And so... is
really great on this because youknow, we think of Pink Floyd
Pink Floyd is a mixture is twoworlds to jazz artists, pink and

(01:22:59):
Floyd from the 1920s. Okay. Youknow, I could go on, I could go
on, I could go on. But what Ithink the key thing is that,
that music artists are alwayspushing the limit. So we think
of the way that grime and drillhas been stereotyped in, in the

(01:23:24):
media. Well, that's no differentto the way that hip hop was
stereotyped, you know, demonizedduring the 1980s or reggae. The
the status quo is alwaysthreatened by music, that is
going to be critical that isgoing to question and this and
music is political period. Youthink of Bob Dylan and the stuff

(01:23:48):
he was doing it's political. Theprotest songs during the 1960s,
Nina Simone, Bob Dylan and thelike, it's political. In the
80s, and the 70s. So music hasalways questioned and justice
question raising issues of sothat's what artists do. That's
what artists do. Beyonce hasbeen doing that. But to push to

(01:24:13):
always develop new sounds, newideas. I remember Stormzy I was
at Glastonbury a couple of yearsago. And Stormzy has just
written, you know, with his tunein, but onstage, he was on stage
with a bullet proof is coveredin a Union Jack. Now that's a

(01:24:33):
very powerful symbol. Wow.That's a very powerful symbol
that he's sending out there. Andthis is where artists I think
music artists, can make us thinkcan make us through their music
but also through theirsymbolism. began to question the
status quo and and challenge andspeak to power and challenge

(01:24:56):
oppression. One of the keyartists in that is Bob Marley.
You Yeah. And why Bob Marley isloved across the world. Because
people when they listen to thismusic, they know he's speaking
to them. He's speaking to thedowntrodden. He's speaking to
the the oppressed, and he'ssaying to them, you can have

(01:25:17):
liberation, there is freedom,the Okay, you can resist
oppression. Because whereverthere is oppression, there is
always been resistance. That isa fact of history. Wherever
there is power and oppression,there always been resistance.
And musicians and artists andwriters are the ones who give

(01:25:37):
voice to that. And that's whatBob Marley does. That's what
that's why you can go everywherein the world, Africa, East Asia,
India, South America, Bob Marleyis celebrated, because he spoke
for the people. People sensethat in his music, he was
speaking to them about theirlives being oppressed, and, and

(01:25:59):
so forth. Yeah, that's thepower. That's the power it has.
already has. So you know, you'rereally lucky in being able to
interviewe these people, youknow, it's astounding, you're
really lucky, you know, when youjust hear the names.
Yeah, those moments in historythat you know, you can't believe
are happening. And luckily, Iwas also able to do those

(01:26:21):
interviews from a social historypoint of view, you know, it
wasn't, oh, what's the latestalbum kind of stuff. And
what a privilege, what an utterutter privilege. But it's that
it's everything you're saying,you know, the power, the
dismantling of barriers, thesurvival against all the odds,

(01:26:42):
but the celebration that we needto wrap around all of this as
well, in terms of hanging on tothat sense of optimism and hope
for positive change? Becausethey did succeed against all the
odds, and not I don't mean,success, just in terms of
commercial success, but in termsof their battles for equality

(01:27:04):
and their voices for everybodyelse, creating change for
everybody else.
That's right. I mean, that's areally important point. I just
wanted to add to that. Why are more black
artists speaking about theracism in the music industry?
Well, one of the issues that hesays is that they're afraid

(01:27:27):
they're afraid of the effect ontheir careers. And the lash back
about that. And I just wanted tosay here that artists, yeah, we
have fears, but we actually haveto speak out. Because at the end
of the day, all we have is ourintegrity. You know, yeah. And

(01:27:48):
that's how you will beremembered. That's how you will
be remembered. You won't beremembered by the commercial
success. Yeah, you will beremembered by what the music
that you created. And does itspeak to subsequent generations?
Does it kind of say things orspeak to things or, you know,
empower that sense of liberationand freedom in subsequent

(01:28:13):
generations? It's not about howmuch money you made one while
you were alive?
Yeah, no, completely. No. So
you think of legacy of, youknow, of all the artists you
mentioned, it's not about theircommercial successes. Does their
music speak to people now? Yeah.Does it speak to them now? Does

(01:28:33):
it read resonate with me,that's, that's the legacy leave
me as an artist.
Yeah. And I think your legacy,or at least one of them,
certainly something I'd like tothank you for is the openness
that you're creating, whetherit's literally opening a door on
the front room, or the opennessthat you create, through your

(01:28:55):
plays your writing throughvisiting music, I think
openness, and also as a form ofcuriosity, it is really vital.
And I really want to thank youfor that. And I want to thank
you for joining me in a virtualfront room, if you like not, not
as exciting as a West Indianfront room. And I'd also like to

(01:29:19):
offer a shout out actually,because when I was doing my
research, I also came across apodcast you did with DJ flight.
And so for the listeners, I'dreally like to do a shout out
for DJ flight head to theWindrushstories.com site, where
you'll find the associatedpodcast with DJ flight. And
that's one of the only flightsyou can take at the moment with

(01:29:42):
the current strikes. So, so dolook out for that. Michael,
thank you so much. You reallyare a great and inspiring
educator. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Paula. Hey,take it easy. Until.
Until.