July 30, 2022 • 68 mins
Dr. Marwa Al-Sabouni is an award-winning architect considered to be one of the top 50 global thinkers around the world. Marwa elevates the critical role architecture has to play in building peace and preventing conflict through segregation and isolation. She is the author of ‘The Battle for Home’ and ‘Building for Hope' and an international speaker. She also recently co-directed the Brighton festival. We talk about 'uglification' and how badly built environments result in loneliness, violence, suicide and war. We talk about inhumane architecture as a form of siege on our human experience. We talk about hope, how we can re-build for peace and where those examples of architecture have been found historically. Marwa's hometown Homs was destroyed during the Syrian war and she and her family lived as prisoners for 2 years with daily, deadly threats. She chose to stay, to rebuild peace. Her courage is as humble as it is huge, practical, spiritual and very inspiring for a world in desperate need of peace.
During this recording, Marwa had low bandwidth in Syria, very special thanks are owed to the audio editor Barry J. Gibb to make the quality the best it could be.
Discover Marwa Al Sabouni here:
https://www.facebook.com/people/Marwa-Al-Sabouni/100001576481506/
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can also be found here: https://www.canartsaveus.com
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for all of us to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion Can art save us? And my
(00:51):
guest today is Dr. Marwa Al-Sabouni, an award winning
architect and global thinker,elevating the role architecture
has to play in peace to preventsegregation and conflict, but
build community cohesion andharmony, however diverse those
communities are. She is theauthor of the 'Battle for Home'
and 'Building for Hope.' And bothbooks liberate how we can think
(01:14):
about the built environment sothat we can all belong without
isolation, polarisation andconflict. Marwa has gifted us
all of this despite survivingthe Syrian war, during which her
hometown Homs was destroyedand she and her family lived as
prisoners for two years withdaily threats. Marwa's, Ted Talk
(01:34):
has been viewed over 1 milliontimes and she is considered one
of the top 50 thinkers aroundthe world. I can only imagine
Marwa will be a recipient oneday of the Nobel Peace Prize
and we already have a lot tothank her for as an architect of
hope, and peace. So Marwa, whatI'm wondering today, for our
(02:00):
listeners is what yourarchitectural view is today,
perhaps you could tell us whereyou are today and perhaps
what it is, you can see?
You mean physically where I'mlocated? Yes. Well, I'm
back home, I was travelingduring the past month, I had two
(02:24):
visits, one to the UK and theother one to Holland. But now
I'm finally back home and I amin my city Homs, Syria and I'm
speaking from my home soI'm basically inside or indoors.
(02:44):
So not much to see.
So what would your hopesbe in terms of your surroundings
in terms of the architecturethat surrounds you? And of
course, sadly, with the changesyou've seen through conflict,
what would you like to seechange as hopefully things
(03:06):
recover? Although I understand,you also think things may
even get worse first?
Well, obviously, I wishto see my country rebuilt
because it's, it is still...to a very large
(03:28):
extent, and just you know, morethan half the country is
destroyed, all the percentagesinvolving housing, health
institutions, educationalinstitutions, roads,
infrastructure, all the numbersare above 50%. But I guess my
(03:49):
work focuses on funding,rebuilding, and in what shape
and what what form it will take.And it makes all the difference
because some rebuilding leadsto another disasters and
instructions and others,should lead to thriving cities
(04:15):
and towns and communities.
And, unfortunately, in the West,our dominant images of Syria
are led by the war and urbandestruction. But of course,
Syria is an agriculturalcountry. And I saw that you
spoke about rebuilding the rurallife and breaking a cycle. And I
(04:40):
wondered if you could tell usmore about that vision because
do you see rebuilding Syria asembracing its rural and
agricultural landscape andbecoming environmentally
resilient from that point ofview?
Well, thank you for that questionbecause I believe it's very important
(05:02):
especially because it involvesalso, not only, you know, the
greed of profit and commercialbuilding, but also the
stereotypes, which are mostlywestern in that sense, because I
think the Western world stillbelieve that oh, look, you know,
(05:26):
and in one brush, they just,you know, see the Middle East,
so called Middle East as oneplace that resembles the dunes
and the desert in the Gulf,which couldn't be, you know,
further from the truth alsocouldn't be more generalized and
simplified. Syria is aMediterranean region, which
(05:48):
means that it has arid landsand it's also... it's
primarily an agricultural landwith a history, I mean, very
long history of agriculture,especially Syria as part of the
Levant and Mesopotamiaactually, are the places where,
(06:09):
again, Portugal was born, youknow, they thought, technically,
the technicalities, and, and somany inventions, in, in the area
of agriculture, also, it's theplace where the first alphabet
was found, the first musicalnotation was found to land up
civilization and prosperity. ButI guess it's easier for the West
(06:34):
to imagine this place as as adesert. Because in that sense,
you wouldn't have to worry aboutit just you know, it's a desert
that, you know, couldn't becouldn't be more destroyed. It
just, you know, it's, there'snot nothing much to, to worry
about or to lament the loss ofit. Like I said, I
(06:56):
believe that the cycle of, thecycle of building in a wrong
way, let's say, especially inour country, it's I think it's a
global issue. But I think in ourcountry, also, it's a good place
to start because the mainquestion when it comes to
rebuilding is where we start.And the countryside is the place
(07:17):
in my view, where to startbecause it's, it's, it's also an
opposite point of view, thenwhat, what our let's say, city
makers, and people in ourpolicymakers see, they wish to
do like the tourists wish tolike, see Syria as the, as a
(07:38):
place depending on tourism,service economy, which is that
we will become more reliant on,on on the west and on also on
the Gulf and where mmoney is, and it will mean that we will lead
(07:58):
ourselves to more destructionwhereas if we focus on the
countryside, not, not as a placeof tourism as a plan, but as a
place of production, selfreliance, that means that there
is less pressure on our cities,there is more balance in our
economy and there is more... efficient resources
(08:21):
as well.
Yeah, you're really clear onthat importance of of balance
and harmony and, and reallyrebuilding harmony as a form of
peacekeeping and even rebuildinghope. And of course, it is well
reported that there is a globalepidemic of mental illness and
(08:46):
also loneliness. And I wonderedfrom your point of view, how
much of that could be solved notonly by architecture, but also
embracing exactly what you'resaying in terms of the rural
environment?
Well like we are shaped by, as human beings, we are shaped by how
(09:09):
things look around us, but alsothe people are around us and
what we do as as vocations ashow we contribute to our places.
So, this interactiverelationship between our being
and the way in our places isvery important and crucial to my
(09:33):
to my work, because I think, Ithink when we think about human
settlements in exclusively inurban terms, we are overlooking
other natures for example,there are people who are really
genuinely interested in in inbeing, you know, embracing
(09:57):
ruralism and people who wish tolive in the countryside rather
than the city, but choose tolive in urban urban environment
because of the economy becauseof how cities are creating
pressure over the countrysideand draining the countryside
from from its people. So alsoaesthetically, the way we are
(10:23):
colonizing the countrysideevenly is, is leading to
destruction, destruction of thebeauty of the place, which means
that people are less inclined toattach themselves to to their
places because the uglificationof the environment means that we
(10:44):
are losing attachment and losingthe threads that connect us with
places which I'll focus in bothof my books.
Yes, and uglification,is such a good
word and you also talk aboutinhumane architecture. And I
find that particularly importantin terms of how you can
(11:09):
associate that with opressingidentity and connection. So, for
example, when we think of asiege, we think of a war
context, cutting off essentialsupplies, for example, to force
a surrender and I wondered ifyou would associate siege to a
(11:29):
badly built environment in thatit cuts off social connections
and forces oppression andcultivates conflict.
Well, definitely, I mean, seigeto use it metaphorically is
exactly what is what is thefacing most of the world
(11:51):
population at the moment, lookat the young generation, for
example, people who are just youknow, trying to find themselves
a place to belong to a place towork at, a place to contribute
to. Globally we we look atstaggering numbers where people
are denied the right to have ahome but also physically, they
(12:15):
don't have a means of owning aplace but also even renting this
is becoming also a challenge. Ona deeper level, they do not feel
they belong they do not feelthat they are needed in their
places. And that's why you findmost of the young are just
(12:35):
drifting you know from place toplace living as modern nomads
struggling to find this firstdefinition of identity and most
importantly, the definition of their role in life,
which is, which is a disaster,which is leading to too many
(12:56):
vices as violence we arewitnessing as the death and
destruction around the world.
Absolutely, and I, I can imaginethat there may be listeners now
who recognize the difficultiesthis is highlighting in terms of
(13:20):
where they live. So for example,listeners may live in tower
blocks that suffer isolation orneglected estates. Even
unwelcome snobbery of living ina well kept village, which in
itself can be polarizing and theenormous amount of displaced
(13:42):
people are there's a shockingstatistic recently reported from
the United Nations, that theworld has surpassed 100 million
displaced people, refugees,people that no longer have a
home. And from that point ofview, it really begs the
question how can we all beempowered to be part of the
(14:07):
social outcomes of design thatdirects our human experience?
Well again, it's, it's it's thepower of of building, of
architecture it's, it's how,because architecture became a
commodity became a tool ofdesigning places for for the
(14:31):
elite and design places for, forprivate businesses and touristic
center city centers. Whereas thecity I mean, before before you
know it not before too long,it's just you know, after
World War World War One and twoand the industrial revolution is
(14:54):
just you know, the turning pointwhen the built industry became
industry before that, throughoutthe histories, the history of
humankind building was, youknow... building was
used, of course, to build theimage to build the vision for
the country to, to manifestpower. But also, most of the
(15:16):
buildings were people, you know,when ordinary people where the
public lived, belonged to thepeople, and there was no
pressure as as today, on...the place where all the
resources are drained, you know,they, they come from, from, you
know, from, from thecountryside, from the suburbs,
(15:39):
from everyplace and just, youknow, into this one spot, which
became a continuous strife, whereyou have distances, long
distances to cover, youhave different city centers, you
don't have one place where onecommunity can live or your
(15:59):
society that you know, is iscompact in a way that is
understandable for the peoplewho live in one place. So it's
it's unrecognized anymore wherethe peripheries are where the
boundaries are. And in thatsense, people just struggle to
find the place and struggle tofind, like I said, a definition of
(16:24):
their own role and own identity. And more importantly,
they struggle to find means toenter those channels in
an economic way. So it's a constant
struggle to try to fit in, andyou are always pushed, pushed to
(16:44):
the outside, physically andemotionally and psychologically,
which means that you have tovent it somewhere. That's why
you see all of this stress andanger that is manifesting itself
in the most violent and uglyways.
Yeah, and boundariesincreasingly seem to be about
(17:11):
segregation and forcedsegregation. And even in the UK,
there is a very difficultstruggle now between private and
public space and the increasinglack of public space where there
is perhaps that chance of socialconnection and creating meaning
(17:35):
and a sense of belonging. And Iwondered if, from your point of
view, if you even see a linkbetween the loss of public
spaces and higher rates ofsuicide?
Well, definitely the loss is itI mean, I think it's related to
(17:58):
the loss of society or communityyou don't have, you don't have a
safe environment anymore inour global city to an exception,
I mean, where bare exceptionswhere it's a small town and
people's you know, know theirknow their neighbors. It's, it's
(18:18):
the loss of neighborliness, it'sthe fact that people are more
isolated by the fact they livein their encapsulated boxes,
physically isolated from others,not encouraged to have
relationships with theirneighbors, people are no longer
(18:39):
know each other. And that meansthey they feel the void, there
is no, we are destroying thosesafety nets in our urban fabric
that we've lost. Those peoplewho were around you, they are
not necessarily your family orextended family, they, they
(19:00):
are their neighbor, yourneighbor, and they sometimes you
know, they are there for you.But now in our in our divided
cities and isolatedneighborhoods we lose this and
this means that people are morelonely now. And like I said,
it's more felt among youngpeople, because those are the
(19:23):
people who are you know, theyhaven't witnessed the, the, what
I call generosity of the city.They haven't witnessed the place
where they felt safe in theirown environment.
And the global epidemic ofloneliness is is so acute and
(19:50):
only getting worse, tragically.And you talk about the
importance of the Syrian spatialarrangements in
architecture, which created aconstant contact between groups
of people, however diverse, theywere, and you've also referred
(20:14):
to a form of, a formof Islamic trust, that can put a
break on the machinery ofgrowth. And I wondered if you
could expand on those ideas andjust to give some context, to
the listeners?
Definitely, I mean, because, youknow, I was, I was analyzing
(20:36):
those problems, I was looking atmy own city, destroyed. And
that led me to research to do aresearch... and I
wanted to find some answers ofhow we deal with with these
growing problems, how we put ahold on, on what we find,
(20:58):
sometimes inevitable. So, youwill hear experts saying that
people are more inclined to seethat by 2050, 75% of the the
global population will live incities, and that means that you
have more and more crowded citiesyou will have more and more
(21:21):
extended strife and you will,you will lose boundaries,
lose communities, you will loseneighborliness, and you, you
just, you know, we'll, asarchitects and policymakers and
urban planners, you just you needto find some tactics to, to
mitigate those effects, butnever to uproot the problem and
(21:46):
find a cure to those problems.And my research led me to, to,
two policies actually made in theIslamic history of City
Planning. And I was fascinatedby the results they, they met,
I mean, in terms of the city,the policy of 'waqf', which
(22:13):
translates into endowments oforganic trust, it's, it's, it's
a policy that actually createdwere introduced to to the
Islamic city with Islam. Sosince the beginning of Islam,
the concept of waqf, was there.And it's, it's actually, it's
(22:36):
endowing any property. So youcan, you know, it doesn't have
to be a land or, or, you know,a building, it could be
any property, anything you own,you could endow, and in that
sense, you endow it to God. Soit's a property of God. And once
it's endowed, it cannot changefunction. So it's a legacy,
(22:59):
that, that continues overgenerations. And this gives the
time, is very crucial concept,you know, that time, that you
have something that is permanentin time, you have, like, for
example, if you endowed aschool, this should be the
(23:19):
property, it should be a schoolyou know, until eternity,
it shouldn't be shouldn't betransformed into a restaurant,
for example. And it's, it's whenit's endowed to God, that means that
you do not seek profit from it,you only seek maintenance and
(23:41):
you only you are in the businessof maintaining this, this
property and maintaining the good... and public policy as it is in
Islamic legislation. So they... it's a complete law you
(24:02):
know, just you know that so manylegislations and so many case
scenarios where you know, what,if this happened, there is this
solution or this is and this isthe way forward and this means
that the Islamic city work waspreserved throughout the
(24:24):
centuries that's why you see somany different styles living
side by side and you had, it'sexactly what you need as brakes
on the cycle, endless cycle of growth, its place, it's
it's a place frozen sometimes intime, but it continues to give
(24:46):
good and this means that you donot put a halt on progress you
do not put a halt on, ongrowth. You have a break that
slows down the motion in thebest way forward.
It really sounds like a deeprespect what you've described,
(25:13):
that idea of a school remains aschool, for example, it doesn't
become a restaurant, there's areal respect for the purpose of
a place and what that permanentheritage is. And it does seem
respect is very absent from alot of our lives. And that's
reflected in in terms of how welive and where we live. And you
(25:37):
also seem to describe a reallyimportant power shift. I really
like that idea of attributingownership only to God, for
example, as opposed to apowerful commercial business
developer. Would you say that'sa really important leveler as a
(25:58):
way of returning to moreharmonious communities?
Definitely. And the proof is, Imean, and when the Islamic
regions were colonized, forexample, they were divided
between the French and theBritish. So one of the main
policies, those colonizercolonizers changed was the waqf.
(26:23):
So it gives it gives youan insight about the intention
of of the of those organizers,but also the importance of waqf
and how threatening it is tocurl business, in
terms of, you know, capitalizinga whole country or whole region.
(26:47):
Again, I mean, I should makeclear, I'm not anti capitalist.
So it's just because Islamiceconomy has traits of both
capitalism and socialism, it's amix of the two. And I think it's
a very interesting economy tolook at. But to get back to the
(27:09):
point here is that the waqfpolicy was changed, in Syria,
for example, by the french,it was transformed immediately
from civil property or civilinstitution into an
administrative ministry, whichimmediately made it, you know,
a lost cause a cause and be proneto corruption, and to become
(27:32):
just you know, and menialministry, it has a one of
the most corrupt ministries, bythe way, at the moment, because
it's just, you know, have lostsight.
It's really interesting when youmentioned, you know, that you're
not saying you're anticapitalist, for example, because
(27:55):
I, I read that recently, yousaid, "I'm not liberal, I'm not
conservative, I'm just Muslim."And I was really interested in,
in what that was in response to.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, because,again, the Islamic culture, and
definitely the Islamiclegislation is, is is, is not,
(28:18):
you know, binary as the...reception of those policies, it
just, you know, it's some, it'ssomewhere in between, it's, it's
a middle ground, that have thathave, you know, traits of, of
this and that, but the mix isvery interesting. And the result
is, is, is also something to doresearch more research on
(28:41):
because it has proven to allowcommunities and civilizations to
thrive, it's just, you know, ofcourse, as as any as any law,
it's, it's, you know, it it canit has, in terms of
(29:01):
application, because humansactually apply this law
that means that there aremoments in history where this
was corrupted, but that doesn'ttake away any of the the the
brilliance actually of theactual law. So if we should
(29:22):
separate by the way between thethe experience as applied by
humans and the law as you know,as something that is legislated
and something that is you know,as material in itself, so
because sometimes you hearpeople mixing the two you hear
people you know, saying, well,there will there were times that
(29:45):
things were perfect, of coursethey weren't perfect because
people applied those policiesand that means that there were
missed appliance, you know,sometimes they they made errors
and that led to wrong anderrors on the ground. But when you
study those policy and studythose laws, you will see that
(30:06):
they only lead to good results.
And it's those good results thatwe need to revisit and embrace
again. When I looked at all ofthe powerful and important
values that your research andwriting has raised, I wondered
(30:27):
if you had to summarize the roleof architecture in a really
almost brutal way, in a reallybasic way. Could you say that
world architecture currently, iseither building, tolerance or
terror?
(30:48):
Well, I think I mean, I wouldlike to avoid the binary here,
again, because when it comes,especially to architecture you
have it's, it's an human, it's ahuman endeavor. So you have
errors, and you have also goodresults. And that means as
(31:08):
experience, you could you couldfind, you could find the pros,
and you could find the cons. ButI guess, when we discuss the
principle, or the vision behindcreation, that when we can get,
you know, really binary, we canwe can speak in black and white
then. So in principle, when youbuild for vanity, when you build
(31:34):
for, for I would say money, butI'm also I don't want to be to be
misinterpreted here, money isimportant, and economy is
important when when it's thesole goal, when you build a
trade of money when you buildprimarily to, for for profit and
(31:59):
you overlook, lose sight of theend goal is building for
people, that means that you willend up with a product. And I
think the premise of Building as aproduct is is is something that
is that leads to terror. Whereaswhen you when you when you build
(32:23):
for, for the human being willthat even when you want the
human being to thrive when youwant the economy of the human
thrive as well. But when the humanbeing is at the center of your
experience, I think that whenyou end up building for
(32:43):
tolerance, to use your terms.
Thank you, that's a reallyinteresting way of being able to
view both of those those times.I'm really interested in the
role of curiosity in your work,and from two points of view,
whether your own research andwriting is a pathway of your
(33:07):
your own curiosity. And in termsof architecture, supporting
curiosity, from the point ofview of openness, that design
can enable access andintegration and in effect, a
form of openness and curiosity.
Well, I mean, definitely, Imean, it's it's curiosity is is
(33:32):
our only way of learning. So ifyou are not curious, you don't
ask questions, and you don'texperiment, experiment and in
result you don't learn. So inmy own research, just since I
was I was in college, studyingfor for architecture I was, I
(33:55):
was really curious to know whywe are learning about modern
buildings and Western creationsand never asking about own
environment. We haven't done anycourse, except architecture
history, touch upon any buildwhat are the most important
(34:19):
buildings in our city in ourcountry? Why we build this way?
What kind of style do we have?What kind of identity do we
have? In what way should webuild as as, for example,
As Syrians in the 21st century?All of these questions, you
(34:40):
know, were out of question. Theywere just you know, they were
something that we didn't discussas students and something that
our teachers and our courseshaven't touched upon. That why I
decided to continue my highereducation and find out more For
(35:00):
myself, I just you know, Istudied for my MA and for my PhD
and for the subjects that Istudied about, I investigated
the localism and globalization Iinvestigated the history of
stereotyping Islamicarchitecture and I wondered why
(35:23):
why is it that we see, forexample, that...
which, which gave me so much
insight about my own history andunderstanding of my own identity
as well, because the theconclusion was that no Islamic
(35:49):
architecture is not about thoseelements. And in so many
instances, and over so manycenturies, it didn't have those
elements. And that meant it's awhole other conversation. But
it's about curiosity, curiosityas, as you said, so in terms
(36:11):
of in terms of how architectureenables this curiosity, it's
exactly, it's exactly what Ialso write about when I wrote
about the generous city becausethe generosity is about
exchange. And it's about givingand taking instead of just, you
know, just giving, defininggenerosity in terms of exchange
(36:36):
means, that means that you arewhen the place allows you in
when a place welcomes yourcontribution is it is when you
when you call this place, agenerous place. And in that
sense, it satisfies yourcuriosity. Also, it should, it
(36:57):
should enable your curiosity itshould, you know, drive you to
to meet the other, and then tosee other people and to
introduce to people who youjust, you know, might, might
otherwise, you know, think inmore alienating terms, as we see
(37:19):
in so many divided andsegregated cities globally.
And it's interesting that yourecognize curiosity in terms of
asking questions, the importanceof asking questions, and I
wondered if you see that, aspart of empowerment, a way of
(37:43):
how we can empower ourselves.But it seems to be something
that's almost disappearing, thatthere is such a lot of
disempowerment, being able toask questions about how we live
and where we live, being able toinfluence the decisions about
how we live and where we live?What's your view on empowerment
(38:10):
in terms of how we need to beable to all ask questions?
Well, I think I understandasking questions in relation to
listening rather to empowermentin that sense, I think. Because,
(38:31):
you know, allowing yourself toask questions means that you are
interested in hearing theanswer. Whereas in in so many
instances, in our modern times,now, we jumped to conclusions,
and we have some, so we arevery, we tend to be very
satisfied with the answers wealready have or think we have,
(38:56):
and it's the empty things inlistening is it leads to, you
know, lack of interest in askingquestions. If I don't want to if
I think I know you, that means Idon't want to ask you questions
and I am not interested in, inin listening to you.
(39:18):
So your PhD, of course, was agreat active of research and
asking questions. But I alsoread that you also found your
PhD, "an epic struggle againstpetty University bureaucracy,"
(39:39):
and I was really curious aboutwhat that meant, how you
responded to it, and was it evensomething you could have
abandoned?
Well, I think it's it's the sagaof living in in Syria as a
student as and also as as amember of younger generation,
(40:03):
now I no longer of thatgeneration, I'm afraid. But I
look also, at, you know, youngpeople in our generation, my
children, and people who are abit older are unfortunately,
going through the same, the sameexperience, having to
(40:23):
deal with, with not onlybureaucracy, but it's also I
think it's I think what what weare dealing with in our
educational system is, is thefear of knowledge. They, those
who are, you know, likeprofessors, and doctors and
(40:46):
administrators who they dedicatetheir life to dis-able people
from knowledge, because theyfeel threatened by talent and by
accomplishment. And they feelvery content with the corrupted
(41:08):
system that enabled them to sitthere and enjoy the benefits of
laziness. That's what, primarilydriving so many talents, and so
many people outside of Syria forgenerations, even before the
(41:30):
war, this frustration, we put onthe young by creating rigid
systems, and by creatingobstacles, and by creating
unjust situations, is whatdrives people to give up. And
(41:55):
they give up, they do not onlygive up on their task, and their
future, they give up on thecountry. And they leave because
they think everyone I met saidthis phrase, there is no future
here. And it's the most cruelthing to do to any human being,
(42:19):
most importantly, to youngpeople.
Yes, and it's it's an importantpoint you raise in terms of
having a voice, almost the powerstruggle between those that want
to deny certain voices, andthose that are trying to assert
(42:41):
their voices. And I wonderedwhether you actually faced any
kind of of risk for having thevoice you have whether you're
seen in some parties as aradical voice as a challenge to
ideology or control, forexample, because your emphasis
(43:03):
on socially designedarchitecture is so liberating
for so many people.
Well, luckily, I haven't Ihaven't been subjected to any,
say, life threateningexperiences. I think, for
(43:27):
example, I tried to teach at auniversity here in the past
year, and it was, it was thepassive aggressive treatment,
you know, the the trial tosabotage, I think was the most
(43:47):
frustrating, just you know,that, like, so many people have
been accustomed to, you know, becomfortable in their positions
out of laziness, and becausenobody challenges that whether
I'm not interested inchallenging that, by the way, by
attacking those positions, butonly by doing what I think is
(44:09):
right, for example, and just,you know, trying to teach in
what in what I think is goodterms for me and my students is
just what I was interested in,but unfortunately, people around
you like your peers, andsometimes people aren't who are
not your peers in the samefield, they will think of this
(44:31):
as a threat and a threat totheir own positions because
it's, it's it's something intheir way, it showed them in a
bad light. And that means thatthey will, they will do anything
to to prevent you fromcontinuing to work. And it
(44:52):
succeeded. I mean, I no longerwork, just, yeah, it's
counterproductive and I was notable to, to pursue that. And
it's very frustrating but it's,like I said, it's not life threatening.
(45:12):
I'm really interested Marwa inwhere your immense
courageousness comes from yourcommitment, your persistence,
but also, to give the listenerscontext, you know, we've
mentioned your studies your PhD,but in fact, that meant that you
(45:36):
were walking to university underthe threat of snipers that
you've written your first bookduring major destruction,
destruction where your homebecause potentially have been a
direct target. And at one point,even your husband went missing,
and you have children toprotect. Where does your immense
(45:58):
courage come from?
Well, thank you so much. I don't think this way, but um, I guess,
there are millions of stories,literally millions of stories like
mine, I think, I'm just blessed andfortunate to, to have a voice for
this experience to be recognizedfor it. I mean, everyone around
(46:24):
me was one way or another,trying to, to do something with
their lives, while being at therisk of losing it. And they all
went on with their own, youknow, work and life commitment.
And some, I mean, some had itway harder than then, I mean,
(46:50):
some had family members lost,and some had, you know, their,
their limbs lost, and their, youknow, parts of their bodies
lost. And the list, I mean, thelist of horror of
experiences that happened to theSyrian people goes on and on.
But I guess it's, it's, it's an,I think it's a mix of many
(47:12):
elements. The general ones arethat it's in the nature of, of,
of those people of Syrian people, I guess, we will have
perseverance. And we do havepeople who are dedicated to
doing something good in theirlives, you know, they love to
work and they, they are veryhardworking people, they do more
(47:36):
than one. And they are neversatisfied without, you know,
doing something with their time.And I think the other element
is, is so it's, it's believingit's believing that there is a
higher power that is lookingafter you that your destiny is
(47:58):
in those hands, and it's, it's,it's your time and your effort,
what you should worry about, andnot the result, is something
that is very present. On a morepersonal level, I think it's
personally, I'm a person who ismotivated by challenge, since
(48:20):
it's my, it's my own nature,and, and it's been this way
since I was a child, I mean,when the going gets tough, I
tend to get tougher.
And was there someone who, whoinfluenced you or or helped
instill that in you when youwere growing up? A family member
(48:41):
or a teacher, for example?
Well growing up, I was ina house, where my parents
were, were in constantconflict, I guess that I was
always accustomed to war I guessas a child, So in, in my
(49:06):
household, I guess it's itwas, was really I think it was a
it was difficult, because it'salways a conflict that that was
happening in between my motherand my father, and they ended up
getting a divorce in the end.But I think this instilled some
(49:30):
maturity, some kind ofresponsibility that you know,
prematurely. That would, I think,is what does for for first child
I was I was the eldest among mybrothers and brothers and
brothers sisters. But I guesswhen later in life after I got
married I to my to my husband,in my early 20s I think he's,
(49:54):
he's, I mean, he has so muchinfluence on my, on my character
he was I guess I could call himmy mentor, because he just, you
know, he's the most positivesupportive person. And he's very
optimistic. It's not the waythat I was, you know, raised to
just, you know, I didn't see thethe world world as he, you know,
(50:17):
from from this positive andalways solution prone
perspective. And he, I mean, hejust, you know, he was so
supportive, and he has I mean,there's so much credit, like I
wouldn't be able to give him inone sentence.
It's a beautiful example, isn'tit of changing conflict for
(50:41):
something better. I wonderedMarwa, if you're hopeful that we
can rebuild hope?
Yeah, I mean, definitely, I amhopeful. I'm not optimistic,
though. It's a very slightdifference to because I guess,
(51:05):
in our culture, we say, ourhope lies in God. So just, you
know, I, the meaning is, I thinkthat because life, life
continues and life is in our Imean, my belief pre dominantly
governed by, by God by by thishigher power that is looking
(51:31):
over us so always in everyminute, I have hope. But looking
at my own country and the world,I guess, it's a very critical
time that we are living in, andwe don't have the luxury to
relax about it, I think I thinkwe should, we should be on our
(51:51):
toes, trying to do good and to,to, you know, choose the better
option always.
And from the point of view ofarchitecture as a way of
choosing better options.Architecture is a form of art
(52:11):
that can build peace and hope.What do you say to the question
of this series? Can art save us?
Is it a yes or no question?
No, it's definitely too complexI think for a simple yes or no
(52:36):
and it's a deliberately boldquestion, because it invites so
many responses and of course,complex layers.
But I think it definitely playsa role. It definitely plays a
role. And it's, it's, it's not ayou know, it's not a marginal
role. It's a very critical andfundamental role architecture
(53:00):
plays in our lives and in insaving us, because it is also I
mean, you can definitely see howit, how it, you know, sabotaged
our world so it definitely,you know, it holds the key as
well to reverse those badnegative impacts. It's our
(53:26):
responsibility to see that andto try to, to, you know, build
another way, basically.
Yeah. And in terms ofencouraging a collective
responsibility, whoever we are,and wherever we are. Do you have
any words of inspiration orfinal thoughts that that
(53:51):
listeners, people in general,could perhaps takeaway, so that
we can all be encouraged by theidea of having collective
responsibility to make thepositive changes we all need to
see?
Well, I think sometimes,sometimes people say that they
(54:13):
are not architects, they, youknow, they would, you know,
hesitate to, to say theiropinion, they would say, okay,
perhaps I don't get it, perhapsI what do I know, I'm not an
architect. And I think when itcomes to buildings, and when it
comes to architecture, we allhave a say about it, because
(54:35):
it affects our lives. It's aninvitation to our imagination
an invitation to ourinvolvement, and it affects
every, every moment of ourlives. We live in buildings, we
move around buildings, and weuse buildings and we are
definitely affected by theeconomy that revolves around and
(54:55):
in those buildings. So I guesswe all have to be more bold
about it and more educated aboutit and to ask questions.
Yes, perhaps we should all thinkof ourselves as architects, in
terms of we are the architectsof our own lives, but more
(55:15):
importantly, our collectivelife?
Well, do I have a moment here tojust, you know, slightly
disagree and agree?
Yes, of course, of course. Yeah.
I think it's, when it comes toarchitecture, there is this fine
(55:37):
line between between our publicand, you know, public
contribution, and the theexpertise of architecture. So I
guess, what I want to say is sometimesarchitecture is violated by the
(55:57):
fact that it's accessible toeveryone. And, and in that
sense, we tend to think, okay,because architecture is public,
and because it affects thepublic and should revolve around
the public so why do we needarchitects in the first place.
And I think this is where weshould be mindful, because
(56:20):
architects how, you know, interms of training, they are
trained to, to detect beauty andto do to balance, you know,
create the balance, I mean, it'skeen on training to find the
balance between what ispractical and in what is
beautiful, or aestheticallypleasing. And in that sense,
(56:43):
it's a very, it's a very finecraft. It's a very, it's a very
complicated also job andit involves so many factors, and
the architecture, architects mindshould involve so many factors
(57:06):
in within the same formula, andto come up with balanced answer
is, is the key to goodarchitecture. And it's something
I don't think that anyone cando. I think only good architects
can do. But it's also the endresult, the building is
(57:28):
something that the public have aresponse to, and they should
have, you know, a say about it.But I don't think you know, I
think, again, we should havebalance, find this balance
between the experts role and thepublic role, and to find the
(57:49):
right place for conversation. Sowe ended up with the, with what,
you know, with the good results,were we are seeking?
Yes. So I wondered if that ifthat refers to the dynamic that
you speak of, you've talkedabout the Islamic aeshetic on
(58:10):
beauty as more of a dynamic Iwondered if you could elaborate
on that idea for us.
What I mean about dynamichere, I think it's it's the fact
that we should involve theunderstanding of our economy
(58:30):
here, because it's you know,sometimes you see buildings that
cost a fortune, and you know, theywould be dependent on when you read
story behind the building, theywill be dependent on on public
funds and public money andsometimes you know, colonized
money or or you know, inhistory, you know, colonized
(58:51):
money on slave markets or and,and so on. And I guess what I
mean by by dynamic here is, whatis the story behind the
building, what kind of what kindof cycle it promotes what kind
of, because, again, buildingsneed money to be built, and they
(59:13):
produce money after they arebuilt. And also they need
maintenance and they and theyfunction, so that means they
consume again, so money, and inthat sense, there is a cycle
there's an economic cycle, thatevolves and involves the building
(59:34):
and what I mean by dynamicbeauty here is what kind of
cycle this building evolvedand to give you a specific
example here, for building forexample, I'll give a simple example
here is a building built by by abuilding company, what does it
(59:56):
involve, you know, workers andwhen it comes to, for
example, the old cities or yourtraditional cities, they are
always built by workers, thereis no one company that could
build a traditional city or oldcity, because there are many of
(01:00:17):
buildings, there are differenttypologies in those, so it's not
mass produced, it's never massproduced. And in that sense, it
involves a network of workers.And that means that you have a
variant actors in the economiccycle. And this means that the
(01:00:42):
good is distributed. And thereis, you know, there's a whole
section that I discuss in mysecond book Building for Hope about
this, but when it's a singlecompany, that is that is
responsible for mass producing,you know, units, use the word
(01:01:02):
units, it means that you haveonly employees in that company,
and the company is the capital.And it's one actor, single,
like, linear, linear, economy that comes out of that building.
So that's the difference, Iguess, in Syria, for example,
(01:01:23):
even when it came to modernbuilding block, we didn't have
building companies until thisday, we don't have, you know,
major building companiesresponsible for, for building,
you know, an entire block orsomething, although we are
witnessing the creation of thosecompany companies, which is what
(01:01:46):
worries me that we are, youknow, preparing for
reconstruction in that in thoseterms. And the argument is,
okay, look at the West, andbecause they always, always look
at the West, look at the West,they use the same technique,
they have the same mechanicsthey have, you know, they are
they use this word as well, which annoys me,they are more civilized, this is
(01:02:09):
the civilized way, as if, youknow, as if using workers is
uncivilized. And yeah, I guessthis is my biggest worry that we
will come and this is what Iwrite about, this is what we are
building our way to more andmore destruction.
Yes, definitely. And, andperhaps to, to finish this
(01:02:32):
conversation it's worthreflecting on a phrase, we use
the tree of life. And, and I sawthat you referenced one of your
designs as a tree. And Iwondered if you could share what
your values are in that idea ofdesigning a place or a building
(01:02:58):
in terms of a tree?
Well, before I before I talkmore about this design, I
should, I should say that I'magainst symbolism, so I don't like
to symbolize something and youknow, start from the symbol
(01:03:19):
because I think it's, itdeviates the building or the
target of architecture, from itsown, from, from the principles
we were talking about, just youknow, it sets the boundaries, on
on a whole different target.It's just, you know, it becomes
(01:03:40):
revolving as it fits in, youknow, as if it's a painting or a
graphic, a graphic design apicture, it's just, you know,
it's not what architecture isaround. I mean architecture,
again, it's, I would use here,Roger Scruton, the term is it's
an experience, which, you know,I read about in his book The
(01:04:03):
Aesthetics of Architecture,architecture is an experience
and for it to become anexperience, we cannot start from
symbolism. So, I didn't startfrom in my design, I haven't started
from from the tree, I ended upwith the tree. And tree is a
(01:04:23):
very interesting concept. By theway, you have tree of life, you
have word trees, you have thingsso in language, in, in, in, in
stories and in literature, andit's it's very it's a very
fundamental principleconcept in human life, you know,
(01:04:44):
the trunk and the branches, andthe fruits and the leaves and
the roots course so it's it'svery, it's very interesting
concept and in comparisoncomparison, by the way concept.
In my design, I started, Iwant to start from the problem,
which is growth. So in the OldCity, the reason people were
(01:05:09):
demolishing self demolishing their houses, by the way, they
were just demolishing their housesthere, you know, they would be
300 years old house and demolish it because it, it no
longer fits. Again, it's aboutdynamic beauty. It's beautiful,
it's something they love, butthey're no longer able to live in
(01:05:31):
it, they have families andbigger families, and they need
growth. And for that theydemolish the house and build it
a block building, instead ofjust to fit you know, you have
your three children, you havethree stories, and they are each
one will have a house or flat.So I started from the problem
(01:05:54):
which is growth, and I'm wantingto, to maintain what mattered
for people, which is a courtyardhouse. And it was in a specific
area where I did the researchabout the history and the
economy and the sociological,also history of that area. And I
(01:06:17):
ended up with one pattern that Iwanted to build up on. So the
courtyard house, in thatsense, needed to grow and, or
there is the element ofprivacy here. So no courtyard
should overlook the courtyard,which was very important for for
(01:06:40):
the design to work to beacceptable. And from that I
ended up with, with what lookslike a tree, it's not that it
doesn't look like a tree, itdoes, what I say it does, what
trees do, which is growth, itcan be, it can grow
architecturally, so it can growup in also in a patterned way so
(01:07:05):
it's not a random growth.And the...
could could be mirrored in fourdirections and in that sense, it
can unfold and in that themeaning and urbanly grow
and establish growth. And forme, it just you know, and that
was the thinking behind theconcept of tree.
(01:07:30):
Thank you so much for fortalking that through because
clearly everything you're sayingis far deeper than symbolism
and, and that idea of of growthin relation to humanity, hope
and peace it is just soimportant to hear and to share
(01:07:53):
and to aspire to. Marwa I can'tthank you enough for making this
time today. I know you're onlyjust back from Co-directing the
Brighton festival and thank youvery much for what you did with
the Riwaq in Hove. Thank you foreverything you're doing. You are
a wonderful person and awonderful inspiration. I can't
(01:08:16):
thank you enough for making timeto talk to me today thank you
Marwa.
By the way Paula these are veryinteresting, very good
questions. I thoroughly enjoyedthe conversation. So thank you
so much.
Thank you Marwa and take goodcare.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for all of us to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion Can art save us? And my
(00:51):
guest today is Dr. Marwa Al-Sabouni, an award winning
architect and global thinker,elevating the role architecture
has to play in peace to preventsegregation and conflict, but
build community cohesion andharmony, however diverse those
communities are. She is theauthor of the 'Battle for Home'
and 'Building for Hope.' And bothbooks liberate how we can think
(01:14):
about the built environment sothat we can all belong without
isolation, polarisation andconflict. Marwa has gifted us
all of this despite survivingthe Syrian war, during which her
hometown Homs was destroyedand she and her family lived as
prisoners for two years withdaily threats. Marwa's, Ted Talk
(01:34):
has been viewed over 1 milliontimes and she is considered one
of the top 50 thinkers aroundthe world. I can only imagine
Marwa will be a recipient oneday of the Nobel Peace Prize
and we already have a lot tothank her for as an architect of
hope, and peace. So Marwa, whatI'm wondering today, for our
(02:00):
listeners is what yourarchitectural view is today,
perhaps you could tell us whereyou are today and perhaps
what it is, you can see?
You mean physically where I'mlocated? Yes. Well, I'm
back home, I was travelingduring the past month, I had two
(02:24):
visits, one to the UK and theother one to Holland. But now
I'm finally back home and I amin my city Homs, Syria and I'm
speaking from my home soI'm basically inside or indoors.
(02:44):
So not much to see.
So what would your hopesbe in terms of your surroundings
in terms of the architecturethat surrounds you? And of
course, sadly, with the changesyou've seen through conflict,
what would you like to seechange as hopefully things
(03:06):
recover? Although I understand,you also think things may
even get worse first?
Well, obviously, I wishto see my country rebuilt
because it's, it is still...to a very large
(03:28):
extent, and just you know, morethan half the country is
destroyed, all the percentagesinvolving housing, health
institutions, educationalinstitutions, roads,
infrastructure, all the numbersare above 50%. But I guess my
(03:49):
work focuses on funding,rebuilding, and in what shape
and what what form it will take.And it makes all the difference
because some rebuilding leadsto another disasters and
instructions and others,should lead to thriving cities
(04:15):
and towns and communities.
And, unfortunately, in the West,our dominant images of Syria
are led by the war and urbandestruction. But of course,
Syria is an agriculturalcountry. And I saw that you
spoke about rebuilding the rurallife and breaking a cycle. And I
(04:40):
wondered if you could tell usmore about that vision because
do you see rebuilding Syria asembracing its rural and
agricultural landscape andbecoming environmentally
resilient from that point ofview?
Well, thank you for that questionbecause I believe it's very important
(05:02):
especially because it involvesalso, not only, you know, the
greed of profit and commercialbuilding, but also the
stereotypes, which are mostlywestern in that sense, because I
think the Western world stillbelieve that oh, look, you know,
(05:26):
and in one brush, they just,you know, see the Middle East,
so called Middle East as oneplace that resembles the dunes
and the desert in the Gulf,which couldn't be, you know,
further from the truth alsocouldn't be more generalized and
simplified. Syria is aMediterranean region, which
(05:48):
means that it has arid landsand it's also... it's
primarily an agricultural landwith a history, I mean, very
long history of agriculture,especially Syria as part of the
Levant and Mesopotamiaactually, are the places where,
(06:09):
again, Portugal was born, youknow, they thought, technically,
the technicalities, and, and somany inventions, in, in the area
of agriculture, also, it's theplace where the first alphabet
was found, the first musicalnotation was found to land up
civilization and prosperity. ButI guess it's easier for the West
(06:34):
to imagine this place as as adesert. Because in that sense,
you wouldn't have to worry aboutit just you know, it's a desert
that, you know, couldn't becouldn't be more destroyed. It
just, you know, it's, there'snot nothing much to, to worry
about or to lament the loss ofit. Like I said, I
(06:56):
believe that the cycle of, thecycle of building in a wrong
way, let's say, especially inour country, it's I think it's a
global issue. But I think in ourcountry, also, it's a good place
to start because the mainquestion when it comes to
rebuilding is where we start.And the countryside is the place
(07:17):
in my view, where to startbecause it's, it's, it's also an
opposite point of view, thenwhat, what our let's say, city
makers, and people in ourpolicymakers see, they wish to
do like the tourists wish tolike, see Syria as the, as a
(07:38):
place depending on tourism,service economy, which is that
we will become more reliant on,on on the west and on also on
the Gulf and where mmoney is, and it will mean that we will lead
(07:58):
ourselves to more destructionwhereas if we focus on the
countryside, not, not as a placeof tourism as a plan, but as a
place of production, selfreliance, that means that there
is less pressure on our cities,there is more balance in our
economy and there is more... efficient resources
(08:21):
as well.
Yeah, you're really clear onthat importance of of balance
and harmony and, and reallyrebuilding harmony as a form of
peacekeeping and even rebuildinghope. And of course, it is well
reported that there is a globalepidemic of mental illness and
(08:46):
also loneliness. And I wonderedfrom your point of view, how
much of that could be solved notonly by architecture, but also
embracing exactly what you'resaying in terms of the rural
environment?
Well like we are shaped by, as human beings, we are shaped by how
(09:09):
things look around us, but alsothe people are around us and
what we do as as vocations ashow we contribute to our places.
So, this interactiverelationship between our being
and the way in our places isvery important and crucial to my
(09:33):
to my work, because I think, Ithink when we think about human
settlements in exclusively inurban terms, we are overlooking
other natures for example,there are people who are really
genuinely interested in in inbeing, you know, embracing
(09:57):
ruralism and people who wish tolive in the countryside rather
than the city, but choose tolive in urban urban environment
because of the economy becauseof how cities are creating
pressure over the countrysideand draining the countryside
from from its people. So alsoaesthetically, the way we are
(10:23):
colonizing the countrysideevenly is, is leading to
destruction, destruction of thebeauty of the place, which means
that people are less inclined toattach themselves to to their
places because the uglificationof the environment means that we
(10:44):
are losing attachment and losingthe threads that connect us with
places which I'll focus in bothof my books.
Yes, and uglification,is such a good
word and you also talk aboutinhumane architecture. And I
find that particularly importantin terms of how you can
(11:09):
associate that with opressingidentity and connection. So, for
example, when we think of asiege, we think of a war
context, cutting off essentialsupplies, for example, to force
a surrender and I wondered ifyou would associate siege to a
(11:29):
badly built environment in thatit cuts off social connections
and forces oppression andcultivates conflict.
Well, definitely, I mean, seigeto use it metaphorically is
exactly what is what is thefacing most of the world
(11:51):
population at the moment, lookat the young generation, for
example, people who are just youknow, trying to find themselves
a place to belong to a place towork at, a place to contribute
to. Globally we we look atstaggering numbers where people
are denied the right to have ahome but also physically, they
(12:15):
don't have a means of owning aplace but also even renting this
is becoming also a challenge. Ona deeper level, they do not feel
they belong they do not feelthat they are needed in their
places. And that's why you findmost of the young are just
(12:35):
drifting you know from place toplace living as modern nomads
struggling to find this firstdefinition of identity and most
importantly, the definition of their role in life,
which is, which is a disaster,which is leading to too many
(12:56):
vices as violence we arewitnessing as the death and
destruction around the world.
Absolutely, and I, I can imaginethat there may be listeners now
who recognize the difficultiesthis is highlighting in terms of
(13:20):
where they live. So for example,listeners may live in tower
blocks that suffer isolation orneglected estates. Even
unwelcome snobbery of living ina well kept village, which in
itself can be polarizing and theenormous amount of displaced
(13:42):
people are there's a shockingstatistic recently reported from
the United Nations, that theworld has surpassed 100 million
displaced people, refugees,people that no longer have a
home. And from that point ofview, it really begs the
question how can we all beempowered to be part of the
(14:07):
social outcomes of design thatdirects our human experience?
Well again, it's, it's it's thepower of of building, of
architecture it's, it's how,because architecture became a
commodity became a tool ofdesigning places for for the
(14:31):
elite and design places for, forprivate businesses and touristic
center city centers. Whereas thecity I mean, before before you
know it not before too long,it's just you know, after
World War World War One and twoand the industrial revolution is
(14:54):
just you know, the turning pointwhen the built industry became
industry before that, throughoutthe histories, the history of
humankind building was, youknow... building was
used, of course, to build theimage to build the vision for
the country to, to manifestpower. But also, most of the
(15:16):
buildings were people, you know,when ordinary people where the
public lived, belonged to thepeople, and there was no
pressure as as today, on...the place where all the
resources are drained, you know,they, they come from, from, you
know, from, from thecountryside, from the suburbs,
(15:39):
from everyplace and just, youknow, into this one spot, which
became a continuous strife, whereyou have distances, long
distances to cover, youhave different city centers, you
don't have one place where onecommunity can live or your
(15:59):
society that you know, is iscompact in a way that is
understandable for the peoplewho live in one place. So it's
it's unrecognized anymore wherethe peripheries are where the
boundaries are. And in thatsense, people just struggle to
find the place and struggle tofind, like I said, a definition of
(16:24):
their own role and own identity. And more importantly,
they struggle to find means toenter those channels in
an economic way. So it's a constant
struggle to try to fit in, andyou are always pushed, pushed to
(16:44):
the outside, physically andemotionally and psychologically,
which means that you have tovent it somewhere. That's why
you see all of this stress andanger that is manifesting itself
in the most violent and uglyways.
Yeah, and boundariesincreasingly seem to be about
(17:11):
segregation and forcedsegregation. And even in the UK,
there is a very difficultstruggle now between private and
public space and the increasinglack of public space where there
is perhaps that chance of socialconnection and creating meaning
(17:35):
and a sense of belonging. And Iwondered if, from your point of
view, if you even see a linkbetween the loss of public
spaces and higher rates ofsuicide?
Well, definitely the loss is itI mean, I think it's related to
(17:58):
the loss of society or communityyou don't have, you don't have a
safe environment anymore inour global city to an exception,
I mean, where bare exceptionswhere it's a small town and
people's you know, know theirknow their neighbors. It's, it's
(18:18):
the loss of neighborliness, it'sthe fact that people are more
isolated by the fact they livein their encapsulated boxes,
physically isolated from others,not encouraged to have
relationships with theirneighbors, people are no longer
(18:39):
know each other. And that meansthey they feel the void, there
is no, we are destroying thosesafety nets in our urban fabric
that we've lost. Those peoplewho were around you, they are
not necessarily your family orextended family, they, they
(19:00):
are their neighbor, yourneighbor, and they sometimes you
know, they are there for you.But now in our in our divided
cities and isolatedneighborhoods we lose this and
this means that people are morelonely now. And like I said,
it's more felt among youngpeople, because those are the
(19:23):
people who are you know, theyhaven't witnessed the, the, what
I call generosity of the city.They haven't witnessed the place
where they felt safe in theirown environment.
And the global epidemic ofloneliness is is so acute and
(19:50):
only getting worse, tragically.And you talk about the
importance of the Syrian spatialarrangements in
architecture, which created aconstant contact between groups
of people, however diverse, theywere, and you've also referred
(20:14):
to a form of, a formof Islamic trust, that can put a
break on the machinery ofgrowth. And I wondered if you
could expand on those ideas andjust to give some context, to
the listeners?
Definitely, I mean, because, youknow, I was, I was analyzing
(20:36):
those problems, I was looking atmy own city, destroyed. And
that led me to research to do aresearch... and I
wanted to find some answers ofhow we deal with with these
growing problems, how we put ahold on, on what we find,
(20:58):
sometimes inevitable. So, youwill hear experts saying that
people are more inclined to seethat by 2050, 75% of the the
global population will live incities, and that means that you
have more and more crowded citiesyou will have more and more
(21:21):
extended strife and you will,you will lose boundaries,
lose communities, you will loseneighborliness, and you, you
just, you know, we'll, asarchitects and policymakers and
urban planners, you just you needto find some tactics to, to
mitigate those effects, butnever to uproot the problem and
(21:46):
find a cure to those problems.And my research led me to, to,
two policies actually made in theIslamic history of City
Planning. And I was fascinatedby the results they, they met,
I mean, in terms of the city,the policy of 'waqf', which
(22:13):
translates into endowments oforganic trust, it's, it's, it's
a policy that actually createdwere introduced to to the
Islamic city with Islam. Sosince the beginning of Islam,
the concept of waqf, was there.And it's, it's actually, it's
(22:36):
endowing any property. So youcan, you know, it doesn't have
to be a land or, or, you know,a building, it could be
any property, anything you own,you could endow, and in that
sense, you endow it to God. Soit's a property of God. And once
it's endowed, it cannot changefunction. So it's a legacy,
(22:59):
that, that continues overgenerations. And this gives the
time, is very crucial concept,you know, that time, that you
have something that is permanentin time, you have, like, for
example, if you endowed aschool, this should be the
(23:19):
property, it should be a schoolyou know, until eternity,
it shouldn't be shouldn't betransformed into a restaurant,
for example. And it's, it's whenit's endowed to God, that means that
you do not seek profit from it,you only seek maintenance and
(23:41):
you only you are in the businessof maintaining this, this
property and maintaining the good... and public policy as it is in
Islamic legislation. So they... it's a complete law you
(24:02):
know, just you know that so manylegislations and so many case
scenarios where you know, what,if this happened, there is this
solution or this is and this isthe way forward and this means
that the Islamic city work waspreserved throughout the
(24:24):
centuries that's why you see somany different styles living
side by side and you had, it'sexactly what you need as brakes
on the cycle, endless cycle of growth, its place, it's
it's a place frozen sometimes intime, but it continues to give
(24:46):
good and this means that you donot put a halt on progress you
do not put a halt on, ongrowth. You have a break that
slows down the motion in thebest way forward.
It really sounds like a deeprespect what you've described,
(25:13):
that idea of a school remains aschool, for example, it doesn't
become a restaurant, there's areal respect for the purpose of
a place and what that permanentheritage is. And it does seem
respect is very absent from alot of our lives. And that's
reflected in in terms of how welive and where we live. And you
(25:37):
also seem to describe a reallyimportant power shift. I really
like that idea of attributingownership only to God, for
example, as opposed to apowerful commercial business
developer. Would you say that'sa really important leveler as a
(25:58):
way of returning to moreharmonious communities?
Definitely. And the proof is, Imean, and when the Islamic
regions were colonized, forexample, they were divided
between the French and theBritish. So one of the main
policies, those colonizercolonizers changed was the waqf.
(26:23):
So it gives it gives youan insight about the intention
of of the of those organizers,but also the importance of waqf
and how threatening it is tocurl business, in
terms of, you know, capitalizinga whole country or whole region.
(26:47):
Again, I mean, I should makeclear, I'm not anti capitalist.
So it's just because Islamiceconomy has traits of both
capitalism and socialism, it's amix of the two. And I think it's
a very interesting economy tolook at. But to get back to the
(27:09):
point here is that the waqfpolicy was changed, in Syria,
for example, by the french,it was transformed immediately
from civil property or civilinstitution into an
administrative ministry, whichimmediately made it, you know,
a lost cause a cause and be proneto corruption, and to become
(27:32):
just you know, and menialministry, it has a one of
the most corrupt ministries, bythe way, at the moment, because
it's just, you know, have lostsight.
It's really interesting when youmentioned, you know, that you're
not saying you're anticapitalist, for example, because
(27:55):
I, I read that recently, yousaid, "I'm not liberal, I'm not
conservative, I'm just Muslim."And I was really interested in,
in what that was in response to.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, because,again, the Islamic culture, and
definitely the Islamiclegislation is, is is, is not,
(28:18):
you know, binary as the...reception of those policies, it
just, you know, it's some, it'ssomewhere in between, it's, it's
a middle ground, that have thathave, you know, traits of, of
this and that, but the mix isvery interesting. And the result
is, is, is also something to doresearch more research on
(28:41):
because it has proven to allowcommunities and civilizations to
thrive, it's just, you know, ofcourse, as as any as any law,
it's, it's, you know, it it canit has, in terms of
(29:01):
application, because humansactually apply this law
that means that there aremoments in history where this
was corrupted, but that doesn'ttake away any of the the the
brilliance actually of theactual law. So if we should
(29:22):
separate by the way between thethe experience as applied by
humans and the law as you know,as something that is legislated
and something that is you know,as material in itself, so
because sometimes you hearpeople mixing the two you hear
people you know, saying, well,there will there were times that
(29:45):
things were perfect, of coursethey weren't perfect because
people applied those policiesand that means that there were
missed appliance, you know,sometimes they they made errors
and that led to wrong anderrors on the ground. But when you
study those policy and studythose laws, you will see that
(30:06):
they only lead to good results.
And it's those good results thatwe need to revisit and embrace
again. When I looked at all ofthe powerful and important
values that your research andwriting has raised, I wondered
(30:27):
if you had to summarize the roleof architecture in a really
almost brutal way, in a reallybasic way. Could you say that
world architecture currently, iseither building, tolerance or
terror?
(30:48):
Well, I think I mean, I wouldlike to avoid the binary here,
again, because when it comes,especially to architecture you
have it's, it's an human, it's ahuman endeavor. So you have
errors, and you have also goodresults. And that means as
(31:08):
experience, you could you couldfind, you could find the pros,
and you could find the cons. ButI guess, when we discuss the
principle, or the vision behindcreation, that when we can get,
you know, really binary, we canwe can speak in black and white
then. So in principle, when youbuild for vanity, when you build
(31:34):
for, for I would say money, butI'm also I don't want to be to be
misinterpreted here, money isimportant, and economy is
important when when it's thesole goal, when you build a
trade of money when you buildprimarily to, for for profit and
(31:59):
you overlook, lose sight of theend goal is building for
people, that means that you willend up with a product. And I
think the premise of Building as aproduct is is is something that
is that leads to terror. Whereaswhen you when you when you build
(32:23):
for, for the human being willthat even when you want the
human being to thrive when youwant the economy of the human
thrive as well. But when the humanbeing is at the center of your
experience, I think that whenyou end up building for
(32:43):
tolerance, to use your terms.
Thank you, that's a reallyinteresting way of being able to
view both of those those times.I'm really interested in the
role of curiosity in your work,and from two points of view,
whether your own research andwriting is a pathway of your
(33:07):
your own curiosity. And in termsof architecture, supporting
curiosity, from the point ofview of openness, that design
can enable access andintegration and in effect, a
form of openness and curiosity.
Well, I mean, definitely, Imean, it's it's curiosity is is
(33:32):
our only way of learning. So ifyou are not curious, you don't
ask questions, and you don'texperiment, experiment and in
result you don't learn. So inmy own research, just since I
was I was in college, studyingfor for architecture I was, I
(33:55):
was really curious to know whywe are learning about modern
buildings and Western creationsand never asking about own
environment. We haven't done anycourse, except architecture
history, touch upon any buildwhat are the most important
(34:19):
buildings in our city in ourcountry? Why we build this way?
What kind of style do we have?What kind of identity do we
have? In what way should webuild as as, for example,
As Syrians in the 21st century?All of these questions, you
(34:40):
know, were out of question. Theywere just you know, they were
something that we didn't discussas students and something that
our teachers and our courseshaven't touched upon. That why I
decided to continue my highereducation and find out more For
(35:00):
myself, I just you know, Istudied for my MA and for my PhD
and for the subjects that Istudied about, I investigated
the localism and globalization Iinvestigated the history of
stereotyping Islamicarchitecture and I wondered why
(35:23):
why is it that we see, forexample, that...
which, which gave me so much
insight about my own history andunderstanding of my own identity
as well, because the theconclusion was that no Islamic
(35:49):
architecture is not about thoseelements. And in so many
instances, and over so manycenturies, it didn't have those
elements. And that meant it's awhole other conversation. But
it's about curiosity, curiosityas, as you said, so in terms
(36:11):
of in terms of how architectureenables this curiosity, it's
exactly, it's exactly what Ialso write about when I wrote
about the generous city becausethe generosity is about
exchange. And it's about givingand taking instead of just, you
know, just giving, defininggenerosity in terms of exchange
(36:36):
means, that means that you arewhen the place allows you in
when a place welcomes yourcontribution is it is when you
when you call this place, agenerous place. And in that
sense, it satisfies yourcuriosity. Also, it should, it
(36:57):
should enable your curiosity itshould, you know, drive you to
to meet the other, and then tosee other people and to
introduce to people who youjust, you know, might, might
otherwise, you know, think inmore alienating terms, as we see
(37:19):
in so many divided andsegregated cities globally.
And it's interesting that yourecognize curiosity in terms of
asking questions, the importanceof asking questions, and I
wondered if you see that, aspart of empowerment, a way of
(37:43):
how we can empower ourselves.But it seems to be something
that's almost disappearing, thatthere is such a lot of
disempowerment, being able toask questions about how we live
and where we live, being able toinfluence the decisions about
how we live and where we live?What's your view on empowerment
(38:10):
in terms of how we need to beable to all ask questions?
Well, I think I understandasking questions in relation to
listening rather to empowermentin that sense, I think. Because,
(38:31):
you know, allowing yourself toask questions means that you are
interested in hearing theanswer. Whereas in in so many
instances, in our modern times,now, we jumped to conclusions,
and we have some, so we arevery, we tend to be very
satisfied with the answers wealready have or think we have,
(38:56):
and it's the empty things inlistening is it leads to, you
know, lack of interest in askingquestions. If I don't want to if
I think I know you, that means Idon't want to ask you questions
and I am not interested in, inin listening to you.
(39:18):
So your PhD, of course, was agreat active of research and
asking questions. But I alsoread that you also found your
PhD, "an epic struggle againstpetty University bureaucracy,"
(39:39):
and I was really curious aboutwhat that meant, how you
responded to it, and was it evensomething you could have
abandoned?
Well, I think it's it's the sagaof living in in Syria as a
student as and also as as amember of younger generation,
(40:03):
now I no longer of thatgeneration, I'm afraid. But I
look also, at, you know, youngpeople in our generation, my
children, and people who are abit older are unfortunately,
going through the same, the sameexperience, having to
(40:23):
deal with, with not onlybureaucracy, but it's also I
think it's I think what what weare dealing with in our
educational system is, is thefear of knowledge. They, those
who are, you know, likeprofessors, and doctors and
(40:46):
administrators who they dedicatetheir life to dis-able people
from knowledge, because theyfeel threatened by talent and by
accomplishment. And they feelvery content with the corrupted
(41:08):
system that enabled them to sitthere and enjoy the benefits of
laziness. That's what, primarilydriving so many talents, and so
many people outside of Syria forgenerations, even before the
(41:30):
war, this frustration, we put onthe young by creating rigid
systems, and by creatingobstacles, and by creating
unjust situations, is whatdrives people to give up. And
(41:55):
they give up, they do not onlygive up on their task, and their
future, they give up on thecountry. And they leave because
they think everyone I met saidthis phrase, there is no future
here. And it's the most cruelthing to do to any human being,
(42:19):
most importantly, to youngpeople.
Yes, and it's it's an importantpoint you raise in terms of
having a voice, almost the powerstruggle between those that want
to deny certain voices, andthose that are trying to assert
(42:41):
their voices. And I wonderedwhether you actually faced any
kind of of risk for having thevoice you have whether you're
seen in some parties as aradical voice as a challenge to
ideology or control, forexample, because your emphasis
(43:03):
on socially designedarchitecture is so liberating
for so many people.
Well, luckily, I haven't Ihaven't been subjected to any,
say, life threateningexperiences. I think, for
(43:27):
example, I tried to teach at auniversity here in the past
year, and it was, it was thepassive aggressive treatment,
you know, the the trial tosabotage, I think was the most
(43:47):
frustrating, just you know,that, like, so many people have
been accustomed to, you know, becomfortable in their positions
out of laziness, and becausenobody challenges that whether
I'm not interested inchallenging that, by the way, by
attacking those positions, butonly by doing what I think is
(44:09):
right, for example, and just,you know, trying to teach in
what in what I think is goodterms for me and my students is
just what I was interested in,but unfortunately, people around
you like your peers, andsometimes people aren't who are
not your peers in the samefield, they will think of this
(44:31):
as a threat and a threat totheir own positions because
it's, it's it's something intheir way, it showed them in a
bad light. And that means thatthey will, they will do anything
to to prevent you fromcontinuing to work. And it
(44:52):
succeeded. I mean, I no longerwork, just, yeah, it's
counterproductive and I was notable to, to pursue that. And
it's very frustrating but it's,like I said, it's not life threatening.
(45:12):
I'm really interested Marwa inwhere your immense
courageousness comes from yourcommitment, your persistence,
but also, to give the listenerscontext, you know, we've
mentioned your studies your PhD,but in fact, that meant that you
(45:36):
were walking to university underthe threat of snipers that
you've written your first bookduring major destruction,
destruction where your homebecause potentially have been a
direct target. And at one point,even your husband went missing,
and you have children toprotect. Where does your immense
(45:58):
courage come from?
Well, thank you so much. I don't think this way, but um, I guess,
there are millions of stories,literally millions of stories like
mine, I think, I'm just blessed andfortunate to, to have a voice for
this experience to be recognizedfor it. I mean, everyone around
(46:24):
me was one way or another,trying to, to do something with
their lives, while being at therisk of losing it. And they all
went on with their own, youknow, work and life commitment.
And some, I mean, some had itway harder than then, I mean,
(46:50):
some had family members lost,and some had, you know, their,
their limbs lost, and their, youknow, parts of their bodies
lost. And the list, I mean, thelist of horror of
experiences that happened to theSyrian people goes on and on.
But I guess it's, it's, it's an,I think it's a mix of many
(47:12):
elements. The general ones arethat it's in the nature of, of,
of those people of Syrian people, I guess, we will have
perseverance. And we do havepeople who are dedicated to
doing something good in theirlives, you know, they love to
work and they, they are veryhardworking people, they do more
(47:36):
than one. And they are neversatisfied without, you know,
doing something with their time.And I think the other element
is, is so it's, it's believingit's believing that there is a
higher power that is lookingafter you that your destiny is
(47:58):
in those hands, and it's, it's,it's your time and your effort,
what you should worry about, andnot the result, is something
that is very present. On a morepersonal level, I think it's
personally, I'm a person who ismotivated by challenge, since
(48:20):
it's my, it's my own nature,and, and it's been this way
since I was a child, I mean,when the going gets tough, I
tend to get tougher.
And was there someone who, whoinfluenced you or or helped
instill that in you when youwere growing up? A family member
(48:41):
or a teacher, for example?
Well growing up, I was ina house, where my parents
were, were in constantconflict, I guess that I was
always accustomed to war I guessas a child, So in, in my
(49:06):
household, I guess it's itwas, was really I think it was a
it was difficult, because it'salways a conflict that that was
happening in between my motherand my father, and they ended up
getting a divorce in the end.But I think this instilled some
(49:30):
maturity, some kind ofresponsibility that you know,
prematurely. That would, I think,is what does for for first child
I was I was the eldest among mybrothers and brothers and
brothers sisters. But I guesswhen later in life after I got
married I to my to my husband,in my early 20s I think he's,
(49:54):
he's, I mean, he has so muchinfluence on my, on my character
he was I guess I could call himmy mentor, because he just, you
know, he's the most positivesupportive person. And he's very
optimistic. It's not the waythat I was, you know, raised to
just, you know, I didn't see thethe world world as he, you know,
(50:17):
from from this positive andalways solution prone
perspective. And he, I mean, hejust, you know, he was so
supportive, and he has I mean,there's so much credit, like I
wouldn't be able to give him inone sentence.
It's a beautiful example, isn'tit of changing conflict for
(50:41):
something better. I wonderedMarwa, if you're hopeful that we
can rebuild hope?
Yeah, I mean, definitely, I amhopeful. I'm not optimistic,
though. It's a very slightdifference to because I guess,
(51:05):
in our culture, we say, ourhope lies in God. So just, you
know, I, the meaning is, I thinkthat because life, life
continues and life is in our Imean, my belief pre dominantly
governed by, by God by by thishigher power that is looking
(51:31):
over us so always in everyminute, I have hope. But looking
at my own country and the world,I guess, it's a very critical
time that we are living in, andwe don't have the luxury to
relax about it, I think I thinkwe should, we should be on our
(51:51):
toes, trying to do good and to,to, you know, choose the better
option always.
And from the point of view ofarchitecture as a way of
choosing better options.Architecture is a form of art
(52:11):
that can build peace and hope.What do you say to the question
of this series? Can art save us?
Is it a yes or no question?
No, it's definitely too complexI think for a simple yes or no
(52:36):
and it's a deliberately boldquestion, because it invites so
many responses and of course,complex layers.
But I think it definitely playsa role. It definitely plays a
role. And it's, it's, it's not ayou know, it's not a marginal
role. It's a very critical andfundamental role architecture
(53:00):
plays in our lives and in insaving us, because it is also I
mean, you can definitely see howit, how it, you know, sabotaged
our world so it definitely,you know, it holds the key as
well to reverse those badnegative impacts. It's our
(53:26):
responsibility to see that andto try to, to, you know, build
another way, basically.
Yeah. And in terms ofencouraging a collective
responsibility, whoever we are,and wherever we are. Do you have
any words of inspiration orfinal thoughts that that
(53:51):
listeners, people in general,could perhaps takeaway, so that
we can all be encouraged by theidea of having collective
responsibility to make thepositive changes we all need to
see?
Well, I think sometimes,sometimes people say that they
(54:13):
are not architects, they, youknow, they would, you know,
hesitate to, to say theiropinion, they would say, okay,
perhaps I don't get it, perhapsI what do I know, I'm not an
architect. And I think when itcomes to buildings, and when it
comes to architecture, we allhave a say about it, because
(54:35):
it affects our lives. It's aninvitation to our imagination
an invitation to ourinvolvement, and it affects
every, every moment of ourlives. We live in buildings, we
move around buildings, and weuse buildings and we are
definitely affected by theeconomy that revolves around and
(54:55):
in those buildings. So I guesswe all have to be more bold
about it and more educated aboutit and to ask questions.
Yes, perhaps we should all thinkof ourselves as architects, in
terms of we are the architectsof our own lives, but more
(55:15):
importantly, our collectivelife?
Well, do I have a moment here tojust, you know, slightly
disagree and agree?
Yes, of course, of course. Yeah.
I think it's, when it comes toarchitecture, there is this fine
(55:37):
line between between our publicand, you know, public
contribution, and the theexpertise of architecture. So I
guess, what I want to say is sometimesarchitecture is violated by the
(55:57):
fact that it's accessible toeveryone. And, and in that
sense, we tend to think, okay,because architecture is public,
and because it affects thepublic and should revolve around
the public so why do we needarchitects in the first place.
And I think this is where weshould be mindful, because
(56:20):
architects how, you know, interms of training, they are
trained to, to detect beauty andto do to balance, you know,
create the balance, I mean, it'skeen on training to find the
balance between what ispractical and in what is
beautiful, or aestheticallypleasing. And in that sense,
(56:43):
it's a very, it's a very finecraft. It's a very, it's a very
complicated also job andit involves so many factors, and
the architecture, architects mindshould involve so many factors
(57:06):
in within the same formula, andto come up with balanced answer
is, is the key to goodarchitecture. And it's something
I don't think that anyone cando. I think only good architects
can do. But it's also the endresult, the building is
(57:28):
something that the public have aresponse to, and they should
have, you know, a say about it.But I don't think you know, I
think, again, we should havebalance, find this balance
between the experts role and thepublic role, and to find the
(57:49):
right place for conversation. Sowe ended up with the, with what,
you know, with the good results,were we are seeking?
Yes. So I wondered if that ifthat refers to the dynamic that
you speak of, you've talkedabout the Islamic aeshetic on
(58:10):
beauty as more of a dynamic Iwondered if you could elaborate
on that idea for us.
What I mean about dynamichere, I think it's it's the fact
that we should involve theunderstanding of our economy
(58:30):
here, because it's you know,sometimes you see buildings that
cost a fortune, and you know, theywould be dependent on when you read
story behind the building, theywill be dependent on on public
funds and public money andsometimes you know, colonized
money or or you know, inhistory, you know, colonized
(58:51):
money on slave markets or and,and so on. And I guess what I
mean by by dynamic here is, whatis the story behind the
building, what kind of what kindof cycle it promotes what kind
of, because, again, buildingsneed money to be built, and they
(59:13):
produce money after they arebuilt. And also they need
maintenance and they and theyfunction, so that means they
consume again, so money, and inthat sense, there is a cycle
there's an economic cycle, thatevolves and involves the building
(59:34):
and what I mean by dynamicbeauty here is what kind of
cycle this building evolvedand to give you a specific
example here, for building forexample, I'll give a simple example
here is a building built by by abuilding company, what does it
(59:56):
involve, you know, workers andwhen it comes to, for
example, the old cities or yourtraditional cities, they are
always built by workers, thereis no one company that could
build a traditional city or oldcity, because there are many of
(01:00:17):
buildings, there are differenttypologies in those, so it's not
mass produced, it's never massproduced. And in that sense, it
involves a network of workers.And that means that you have a
variant actors in the economiccycle. And this means that the
(01:00:42):
good is distributed. And thereis, you know, there's a whole
section that I discuss in mysecond book Building for Hope about
this, but when it's a singlecompany, that is that is
responsible for mass producing,you know, units, use the word
(01:01:02):
units, it means that you haveonly employees in that company,
and the company is the capital.And it's one actor, single,
like, linear, linear, economy that comes out of that building.
So that's the difference, Iguess, in Syria, for example,
(01:01:23):
even when it came to modernbuilding block, we didn't have
building companies until thisday, we don't have, you know,
major building companiesresponsible for, for building,
you know, an entire block orsomething, although we are
witnessing the creation of thosecompany companies, which is what
(01:01:46):
worries me that we are, youknow, preparing for
reconstruction in that in thoseterms. And the argument is,
okay, look at the West, andbecause they always, always look
at the West, look at the West,they use the same technique,
they have the same mechanicsthey have, you know, they are
they use this word as well, which annoys me,they are more civilized, this is
(01:02:09):
the civilized way, as if, youknow, as if using workers is
uncivilized. And yeah, I guessthis is my biggest worry that we
will come and this is what Iwrite about, this is what we are
building our way to more andmore destruction.
Yes, definitely. And, andperhaps to, to finish this
(01:02:32):
conversation it's worthreflecting on a phrase, we use
the tree of life. And, and I sawthat you referenced one of your
designs as a tree. And Iwondered if you could share what
your values are in that idea ofdesigning a place or a building
(01:02:58):
in terms of a tree?
Well, before I before I talkmore about this design, I
should, I should say that I'magainst symbolism, so I don't like
to symbolize something and youknow, start from the symbol
(01:03:19):
because I think it's, itdeviates the building or the
target of architecture, from itsown, from, from the principles
we were talking about, just youknow, it sets the boundaries, on
on a whole different target.It's just, you know, it becomes
(01:03:40):
revolving as it fits in, youknow, as if it's a painting or a
graphic, a graphic design apicture, it's just, you know,
it's not what architecture isaround. I mean architecture,
again, it's, I would use here,Roger Scruton, the term is it's
an experience, which, you know,I read about in his book The
(01:04:03):
Aesthetics of Architecture,architecture is an experience
and for it to become anexperience, we cannot start from
symbolism. So, I didn't startfrom in my design, I haven't started
from from the tree, I ended upwith the tree. And tree is a
(01:04:23):
very interesting concept. By theway, you have tree of life, you
have word trees, you have thingsso in language, in, in, in, in
stories and in literature, andit's it's very it's a very
fundamental principleconcept in human life, you know,
(01:04:44):
the trunk and the branches, andthe fruits and the leaves and
the roots course so it's it'svery, it's very interesting
concept and in comparisoncomparison, by the way concept.
In my design, I started, Iwant to start from the problem,
which is growth. So in the OldCity, the reason people were
(01:05:09):
demolishing self demolishing their houses, by the way, they
were just demolishing their housesthere, you know, they would be
300 years old house and demolish it because it, it no
longer fits. Again, it's aboutdynamic beauty. It's beautiful,
it's something they love, butthey're no longer able to live in
(01:05:31):
it, they have families andbigger families, and they need
growth. And for that theydemolish the house and build it
a block building, instead ofjust to fit you know, you have
your three children, you havethree stories, and they are each
one will have a house or flat.So I started from the problem
(01:05:54):
which is growth, and I'm wantingto, to maintain what mattered
for people, which is a courtyardhouse. And it was in a specific
area where I did the researchabout the history and the
economy and the sociological,also history of that area. And I
(01:06:17):
ended up with one pattern that Iwanted to build up on. So the
courtyard house, in thatsense, needed to grow and, or
there is the element ofprivacy here. So no courtyard
should overlook the courtyard,which was very important for for
(01:06:40):
the design to work to beacceptable. And from that I
ended up with, with what lookslike a tree, it's not that it
doesn't look like a tree, itdoes, what I say it does, what
trees do, which is growth, itcan be, it can grow
architecturally, so it can growup in also in a patterned way so
(01:07:05):
it's not a random growth.And the...
could could be mirrored in fourdirections and in that sense, it
can unfold and in that themeaning and urbanly grow
and establish growth. And forme, it just you know, and that
was the thinking behind theconcept of tree.
(01:07:30):
Thank you so much for fortalking that through because
clearly everything you're sayingis far deeper than symbolism
and, and that idea of of growthin relation to humanity, hope
and peace it is just soimportant to hear and to share
(01:07:53):
and to aspire to. Marwa I can'tthank you enough for making this
time today. I know you're onlyjust back from Co-directing the
Brighton festival and thank youvery much for what you did with
the Riwaq in Hove. Thank you foreverything you're doing. You are
a wonderful person and awonderful inspiration. I can't
(01:08:16):
thank you enough for making timeto talk to me today thank you
Marwa.
By the way Paula these are veryinteresting, very good
questions. I thoroughly enjoyedthe conversation. So thank you
so much.
Thank you Marwa and take goodcare.
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