May 5, 2022 • 61 mins
Hala Sabet, changed her life from being the most senior woman in the multinational oil and gas giant, Shell, in Egypt, to becoming a fine artist. Hala draws on her Egyptian roots to express the universe through sculpture and painting. She was selected by the Royal British Society of Sculptors and the International Art Fair in Egypt, where she also has recently had large scale solo exhibitions. We explore curiosity and courage through the idea of biblical coding, Islamic geometry, gravity and profound grief when art was her essential life force. Hala shares the loss of her mother, brother and feeling devastated when her husband needed major heart surgery. Hala's conviction is gripped through art.
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can be found here: https://canartsaveus.com/
Images: Artworks by and courtesy of Hala Sabet.
Audi Edit courtesy of Katherine Wiley.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Discover Hala Sabet: https://www.halasabet.co.uk/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? In this series, I'mtalking to artists, musicians,
filmmakers, actors, art lovers,and other creatives. I'm
exploring how curiosity andcourage not only creates great
art and fuels the arts butcultivates a healthy mind too.
(00:23):
These same attitudes arecultivated in mindfulness
practice with scientific andevidence based results in the
treatment of depression, stressand anxiety. So I'm asking, Can
art save us and help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness
(00:46):
and my guest this week is HalaSabet. Hala was the most senior
Egyptian woman in themultinational oil and gas giant
Shell in Egypt before changingher life to become a fine
artist. Now, Hala works withnature and Islamic geometry,
embracing the universe as amathematical language throughout
her art. Drawing on her Egyptianroots, Hala expresses the
(01:10):
universe through sculpture andpainting, which includes the
magic and mystery of alchemy.She has been selected by the
Royal British society ofsculptors and for the
International Art Fair in Egypt,where she has just had a large
solo exhibition. Once again, sherises, be it business, or art.
(01:31):
Hello Hala, and a very, verywarm welcome. Hello, and a big
welcome because you literallyare only just back from a really
hectic schedule with yourexhibition. So thank you again
for making the time. So hello, Iwondered if we could go straight
to that life changing point inyour life when you decided to
(01:53):
leave shell? Just what were thecircumstances perhaps that led
up to that that made you decideyou were going to make such a
distinct change of direction inyour life?
Well, it was like, I wouldn'tever call it the midlife crisis.
(02:14):
I think it wasn't with a lifesaver. It was Art has always
been inside me. And I've alwaysdone it as a hobby. But then at
some point, I felt what's next.And when you join a corporate
company, and you will,thankfully, I was very
successful and making goodmoney, then you start asking
(02:36):
yourself, Is that what I want todo all my life? And the answer
was no. It's not about achievingjust in the business. And it's
not just about acquiring moremoney, but it's also about
fulfilling your own interests,and and doing what you really
love and be passionate about. SoI was approaching my 40. And I
(02:59):
decided, okay, 40 will be andthat was like two years
beforehand, I said, 40 will be acut off point where I say, I'm
retiring early from thecorporate busy rat race life,
and I want to pursue myhappiness. And I decided to do
that, obviously, at the timeeverybody was against the
(03:22):
decision. And well, I mean,yeah, and I said, be it, I feel
so strongly about it, and I'mgoing to do it. And that is 20
years ago. Now, I never lookedback. And I wanted to
understand, I mean, I had such alove for art. But I felt it
wasn't just a hobby, it neededto be more grounded and more
(03:44):
understood. So I decided to,although I had my degrees
earlier, a BA Honours ineconomics and a master's in mass
communication, I decided no, Iwant to understand art in an
academic way as well. So I wentand did my honours degree in
fine art, followed by my masterand fine art.
(04:06):
So what would you say helped youcommit to such a distinct
change, especially when thereare so many people who even if
they think it's in your bestinterest will advise against
taking any kind of risk? Or whatyou might be losing? Or what you
(04:27):
might be sacrificing? What doyou think power? Do you want to
commit to the change that youwanted to make?
I think it was the inner callthe inner feeling that it is art
what I want to do for the restof my life. I think we come to a
point in our lives where we askthe question, should I just
carry on doing what I'm doing?Or should I change my path,
(04:52):
which I believe would bring memore happiness, and it was my
inner motivation more thananything else? I don't think it
was any out Got a motivation onthe country, the family, the
friends, everybody thought I wascrazy. I was the most senior
Egyptian in the company, andwoman and in the management team
and and Anna had all authorityand I would say power to a great
(05:17):
extent that anyone would dreamto have an achievement, but then
it wasn't fulfilling enough. AndI think you always have to ask
yourself the question, Am Ideeply happy or not? Which ties
very much with your concept ofcuriosity? It's an inner
curiosity, what is it that youreally interested in and
(05:37):
passionate about? And I knew itwas art in its general form that
I wanted to do for the rest ofmy life.
It's really interesting how thatneed for expression, or even the
need just to be curious, so thatyou can explore, you know, your
artistic interests. It'sinteresting how it suddenly
(06:02):
emerges is as though it'ssomething that's been kind of
pushed down in some way. But itgets to a point where it can't
be ignored anymore. It soundslike that's the point. You got
to
Yeah, it's like a volcano. It'salways there. But there will be
a point where it just comes out.
(06:24):
What do you think it is? That'shappiness, it's really
interesting that you keepemphasizing happiness. Why do
you think it is that the pursuitof happiness almost has to
become an act of bravery, itinvolves other sacrifices.
First of all, my firm belief isthat happiness comes from
(06:47):
within, if we are only going towait for happiness to be
provided to us, then it willnever arrive. So if it comes
from within, and you know thatgoing through this path will
lead to it. It's not an easypath. Why it needs bravery,
because probably you're takingrisks. And always, many people
(07:10):
always like to live on the safeside of the road. But it's high
risk, high reward that alwayssay whether financially or, or
in life. So sometimes you doneed to take these risks, to
explore and find out whetherthis is the right path for you
or not. And it's not just aboutbeing the right path or not. But
(07:31):
is it the path that makes youhappy? And I agree with you, I
keep emphasizing emphasizingthis. It's happiness that I was
seeking, rather than any othermeasurable kind of so called
happiness?
And do you think that yourbusiness acumen, the resilience
(07:54):
that you probably learned, as asenior professional informs how
you negotiated and managed thattransition in terms of your
pursuit as a fine artist? Isthat where you think your
resilience came from, to helpyou commit to that direction?
(08:14):
Definitely. I mean, when Idecided that this is what I'm
gonna do, and I'm gonna retireearly on, I remember talking to
my boss, the chairman of thecompany at the time, and saying
to him, I'm giving you two yearsnotice. And he laughed, and he
said, Are you really serious? Isaid, Yes, I've planned that in
(08:34):
my head. And now it's time toexcuted. And definitely, it was.
I mean, I must admit, there wasa bit of luck involved as well,
that I managed to securefinancially a bit what's going
to happen later, at least in thebeginning of that new life? I
would say, but, yeah, I mean,back to your question. Yeah, I
(08:58):
think I think I knew what I wasdoing. I wasn't sure it was
right. But I knew deep insidethat it needed to be done.
Yeah, because I think mostaccounts of artists lives past
and present. Unless they're fromvery wealthy, privileged
settings, the majorityexperience a lot of insecurity
(09:21):
and a lot of uncertainty. Haveyou ever felt particularly
vulnerable? Once you Yeah,
yeah. But I just want to go backto that point, you were
mentioning about me in thecareer, how did it really affect
taking the decision in a way? Ialways believe and I think this
is, I mean, it's not my theory.It's a theory of every
(09:44):
Management School. Management isabout how decisions management
is not just to sit and solve thenormal problems, but it's about
the challenges and reallysolving the challenging,
difficult problems. And I thinkthis will One of them, it was
like, I'm facing this decisioninternally whether I go for it,
(10:04):
and it was taking the decisionthat this is a difficult one,
but I'm gonna take it. Andthat's what all management is
about, I guess.
Yeah. So it does seem like thatyou were already very well
grounded and had that strongsense of resilience in terms of
how you could meet risk, whetherit's personally or
(10:24):
professionally.
Yeah, back to your vulnerabilitypoint. Yes, there were so many
cases. I mean, in the beginning,it took me about a year and a
half or so to overcome thefeeling of guilt. Gosh, I wake
up in the morning, I should goto the office, I wake up in the
morning, and what's going tohappen the end of the month, so
(10:47):
there were like, but then theyall became fantasies, they all
became just ideas in our minds,they're not reality. And
eventually, I got over it, and Ican't think that I would ever
consider again, ever going backto this kind of life.
(11:07):
It's really interesting that youhighlight guilt. Because it's
not as though you've made achoice for bad reasons, you
know, you've not harmed anybody,you know. But yet guilt creeps
in and, and for some even asense of shame, as if they've
(11:28):
done something wrong. Do youthink that that related to the
change in culture that perhapsthe business world is more
visibly rewarded than the artworld? And was Was there a sense
of guilt in terms of making thatchange?
There was partly that sense,because obviously, you're giving
(11:51):
up regular income, with my kindof level at the time, it was
quite high. And that high levelof security and you you're just
diving into the unknown, and notknowing whether you will ever be
able to make a fraction of thatmoney or not. But I guess it was
a decision taken that I have tocompromise certain things. And
(12:14):
when I say compromise, notcompromise it negatively, but
actually compromise itpositively. And you start asking
yourself the question, what isit that's important? Is it
having a bigger house and thebigger car? Or is it having a
better way of expressingyourself? So things become so
different? You start looking atlife in a totally different way.
(12:37):
And you really become morehonest with your real needs,
what they are? And can you giveup this? Whatever luxury you are
having, for the sake of pursuingyour dreams or not? And yeah,
the answer was definitely yes.
And it sounds like you are verycapable of recognizing, you
know, that voice of guilt thatwe all carry in our heads a bit
(13:00):
like the voice of doubt, youknow, when we we lose
confidence, or we hold ourselvesback, just through doubt. But it
sounds like you were very goodat recognizing that that's a
voice that even though itinvites itself in, you can also
ask that voice to leave.
(13:21):
Yes. And I must admit whathelped me and the process was,
which is another form ofmindfulness is I write my diary,
and I wrote it for myself, I'dnever think of anyone would ever
even look at it. But in mydiary, I discovered that I just
automatic write withoutthinking. And when I go back to
(13:42):
read what I've written, I can'trecognize anything. I can't even
believe I wrote that. And therewere some times where I felt a
bit doubtful about my decision.And I went back afterwards to
see what I was writing. And itturned out that I was so sure of
myself. On the outside, itdidn't look so but actually, I
was really so sure of what I'mdoing with all the touring me.
(14:05):
Yeah, it's really fascinating,isn't it to be able to look back
and it's very purposeful. Isn'tit having those diaries of
expression? Yeah. I don't knowif you heard of the research
professor Brene. Brown, shebecame hugely successful through
her TED Talk. But she'simmensely interesting, the way
(14:26):
she has researched and talksabout things like vulnerability
and courage and shame. And Ijust want to share an
interesting quote to see whatyour responses so she describes
vulnerability as our mostaccurate measurement of courage.
(14:49):
Yeah, it's almost like you're ona how do you call it like on a
balance? It's you're about tofall. Which is where you are
vulnerable, but actually notfalling. And realizing that you
might fall gives you thestrength to hold yourself up.
(15:09):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that does. And it'sinteresting, actually. Because
in your work, you make use ofopposites, don't you? Yeah. And
that seems to resonate there.Yeah, perhaps you could talk
about that, particularly fromthe listeners point of view how
you integrate the idea ofopposites in your work? Well, I
(15:31):
mean, I'm always interested insomething and its opposite
geometry and its organic form.precariousness versus really
stability. Even say black andwhite, it's just that that in
between. And I think it verymuch resonates with your
vulnerability, strength kind ofpoint of view. The in between,
(15:58):
the opposite is where, in mybelief is where the truth is, is
where the reality is. And I liketo, I mean, when I'm making any
kind of art, whether it's apainting or a sculpture, I'm
treating the form as it comes.So there's a lot of chance given
to it. And any accident isalways welcome in my work. And
(16:21):
then, after allowing it to takeall its accidental, go, I like
to take control. And there comesthen the, the other opposite of
it. So by allowing the two tohappen, the control on one side,
and the chance on the otherside, and let them both kind of
(16:43):
integrate together and blendtogether, you reach a new
identity, which has got the twoelements of it. And in my, in my
belief, and in my art. That'sthe one. And it's always the two
together. It's not either, or,it's allowing the two to work
together.
Yeah, that's interesting,because it's also really
(17:05):
highlighting the importance ofacceptance, isn't it, though?
Yes. Both exist in whatever theopposites are, rather than
resisting But accepting a bitlike accepting being vulnerable?
Because it has its purpose, forexample? Yeah. It seems that
you're exploring a kind ofharmony as well, in terms of
(17:30):
acknowledging both sides of anopposite?
Well, I mean, if you look at myartist statement, that's exactly
what I'm saying, allowing thetwo together. I mean, they
suppose that they should clash,allowing this clash to arrive at
a harmonious point. And that'swhat I'm satisfied with the work
(17:51):
is interesting, because on yourhomepage, the quote that arises
from Galileo, are quoted nowsays, the universe is written in
the language of mathematics, andits characters are triangles,
circles, and other geometricfigures. And I know that that
(18:13):
quote, can also go on to say,without which it is humanly
impossible to understand asingle word of it. Can you tell
us about your choice inhighlighting that particular
quote?
I guess part of it was that Iview the world in shapes. I view
(18:37):
Well, I always like to go to theessence of anything. And when I
was kind of reading intoGeometry, and and I think it's
in my statement, as well,geometry, the word derives from
Geo metri, which is themeasurement of Earth. And I was
reading a book about art andgeometry. And apparently, the
(18:58):
first time ever, geometry wasencountered, funnily enough, was
in Egypt, where they weremeasuring the earth after the
flood. So they divided the Earthinto rectangles and squares. And
that's how the whole notion ofgeometry started. And it
fascinated me because I thought,so that's the origin. And what
(19:22):
then how can I kind of translatethis into my artwork? And I
started thinking actually, I canlook at anything as a geometric
shape. And that could be theorigin of it. And obviously, I
don't want to say the the clicheand obvious that you can turn a
human figure into circles andcylinders and what have you, but
(19:42):
actually, you can turn anythinginto its geometric form and it
will give you the essence of it.So I chose this statement
because I felt it really kind oftakes me to the roots of life,
not just optometry or art Butlife, and I thought it was very
(20:03):
appropriate to use it.
Yeah, that's interesting,because another comment I've
seen on that particular quote,refers to mathematics as the
alphabet with which God haswritten the universe. And that
(20:23):
just struck me as though it wasa kind of biblical coding. And
it made me wonder whetherthere's a sense of security by
understanding the universethrough a mathematical
structure.
Yeah, yeah, there's a kind ofgrounding. And and, yeah, you
(20:47):
feel like there's a foundation,you're going into that you're
building a foundation and thatfoundation, being mathematical
and geometric, it's kind ofanchoring it in place. And I
don't want to delve into Platoand Aristotle and what they
talked about geometry. But thepoint is, you can understand a
lot, sort of thinkinggeometrically. And although it
(21:10):
sounds a bit philosophical andbit complicated, but actually
it's not, it's just simplifyinglife and things into shapes, and
putting them in a certain simpleformat that we all understand.
He seems that you have a reallyclear vision and response to
this, this idea of if geometryand a mathematical universe, but
(21:34):
at the same time, you canembrace very happily, the
unknown and the in betweens.
Yeah. I mean, the thing if if Ionly rely on this measured part,
which is the geometry of themathematics, I can never create,
I have to, as I mentionedearlier, I have to have the two
together, I have to let thechance I have to let the
(21:56):
organic, I cannot have apainting, or a sculpture, that
is just hard edge pieces. But itI have to allow nature to come
into it as well. And I alwayslove it when things go wrong. I
know it sounds funny, but Ireally love it when things go
wrong. Because then I feel, ah,an upper power has taken charge
(22:21):
here. And I like that. And Iallow it to and then it's again,
the blending and the merging ofthe two together. That gives me
the final piece that I'm happywith.
It's really interesting that youcan say I love it when things go
wrong, because of course, thoseare the times when most of us
can feel very vulnerable becausesomething's gone wrong. But you
(22:44):
have a strong sense of welcomingthat.
Yes. And acceptance. And I guessalso belief, because testing it
in an art form. I mean, althougheven in life, I would say but
we're here talking about art. Sotesting it in the art form, I
discovered that it's when Iaccepted the mistakes. And when
(23:06):
I well I to mistakes, but theyturned out at the end not to be
mistakes, actually solutions.But when I accept what I did not
expect is when it works. And Ifind that it's a challenge that
now I need to resolve. And Ifind that actually is resolving
itself naturally. Which again,back to the opposites.
(23:28):
Yeah, and the opposites. Youknow, your your emphasis on
embracing opposites is reallyimportant. Because it's a space
of discovery, isn't it if wedisallow the possibility of
something going wrong, or notbeing what we expect, we're
disallowing another creativediscovery or an alternative
(23:52):
discovery.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Theyalways say, thinking and feeling
together is what really makesgood art. And I always believe
in that it's not just thinkingand measuring and writing the
right thing. It's also feelinggood and feeling is very much
(24:12):
linked to vulnerability is verymuch linked to imagination is
very much linked to the unknown,because you feel it, but you
can't describe it properly. Andit's allowing this feeling to
come out in whatever formexpected or unexpected is what
will lead you then to find whatyou're making is, at least is
(24:33):
good. It's a good expression ofyourself or not. Because at the
end of the day, there is noright and wrong in art. It's how
true you are to yourself. Andthis was one of the challenges
that I kind of realized when Ileft shell and I decided to do
the art and also it was at thesame time a decision to come and
(24:54):
live permanently in the UK. I'mchanging my culture Changing the
surrounding. And although Ilived in the UK before, but this
was like this another majordecision, which was, by the way,
at the same time of comingpermanently and living in the
UK. And a big question was, Howcan I be true to myself? Because
(25:19):
I cannot just say, Okay, I'll bemaking art that suits the UK.
No, I make art that suits me.That is true to myself. And I
cannot deny my background andcultural background. And it was
always a challenging one. And itwas also a vulnerable one,
actually. But I am glad I stayedtrue to myself. And I try as
(25:43):
best as possible to stay true tomyself and my art would always
express. But again, another twoopposites, it could be so it
could be still the two culturestogether, because what I make
may not necessarily be pureEgyptian or pure British, or
pure, whatever. But it's, again,a mix of the surrounding and it
makes of who I am.
(26:04):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's veryclear that you're the Islamic
geometry. You know, that's,that's such a core part of your
work is very true to yourEgyptian roots. Yeah. And it's
interesting because your geometri series, an installation of
(26:26):
wood structures you describe asdepicting the genius of Islamic
geometry. How would you describeor explain what that genius is,
I'll tell you, in a very briefword, distort any of the
patterns that you have seenaround in mosques, and Alhambra
(26:49):
in different places. All Islamicgeometry starts from two tools,
a compass, and what they call astraight edge, not even calling
it a ruler, all you need to dois draw a circle. And that
circle can be any size. So thereis no measurement whatsoever,
(27:10):
just draw a circle and startdividing it into segments. And
from that division, you createthe most beautiful patterns,
and, and ornaments and what haveyou from just the simplicity,
which again, takes me back toGalileo and what he said about
(27:30):
the simple shapes. It's only thecircle and the line that is
making all this it's not themeasurement of it. It's not how
how, how long, or how wide itis, it's how you have divided
it, and created theseastonishing patterns out of it.
And this is what really drew meto the Islamic geometry. So So I
(27:53):
thought, well, actually, I wouldlike to learn it. And and I went
on different courses, studyingit in London. And the more you
study, the more you find itsimple. But it's just allowing,
again, the unknown. So allowingthat what if I take the line
that way? What if I divide thecircle that way? And you end up
(28:16):
with marvelous results?
And what is the feeling whenwe're talking about thinking and
feeling what is the feeling thatyou have or enjoying most when
you have decided that a piece ofwork is finished?
(28:36):
Before I answered that, I wantto say that when when you're in
the zone of creating art, it'salmost like you're somewhere
else, you're not reallyconscious 100% of what's going
on around you. So it's gettinginto this zone where you hand
and mind are working together.And I remember doing a paper
(28:57):
about that, where there is aneurological link between what
you do with your hands and howthe brain works. So because your
hands are touching the work ortouching something you're
materially working with, andyour brain is thinking how you
you're manipulating it, it'sthis interaction between the two
that is creating at the end somepiece of art. Now, when you're
(29:21):
doing this, your brain isworking. So that's the thinking
side, but and your hands aremoving and interacting. And
that's tangible. There's a fieldso it's that feeling of the
interaction with the materialsplus the thinking process going
on that both of us when the bothof them when they come together,
(29:44):
they make the art that's my owntheory. And that's how I think
it works for me at least.
And and then do you have afeeling of joy or happiness or
what I'll tell you an example,which actually is today, more
than any other day. I've justfinished, as you mentioned
(30:06):
earlier, a huge solo exhibitionin Egypt. And, and I feel
internally that I want toexplore a new direction in
painting. And for some reason, Ifeel I just want to go back to
basics of abstract art. And atthe mall today, in particular, I
said, Okay, now what is it thatI'm going to be doing? Is it
(30:28):
just listening to my feelings?And then part of me said, Yes,
but also, you've got to havesome know how, or some knowledge
of what you want to do. And itwas a typical example of the
mind is thinking, but thefeeling wants to come out. And I
think I've reached a stageprobably by the end of the day
where I've tried to put the twotogether and try to create some
(30:51):
abstract thought that I want todo.
So yes, thing because you're,you're very open, aren't you to
elements of chance? Oh, yeah.And I think that came out in the
gravity series. Yes. That willdo show it because then also,
just to give the listeners somecontext, it was almost like a
(31:13):
scientific explorations, butI'll let you share the story
behind it.
Well, gravity was at the time,my husband had a heart attack,
and he went to hospital. Andobviously, I was devastated. And
I didn't know what to do. And Iwasn't allowed all the time in
the hospital. But after he hadan open heart surgery, which was
(31:34):
really major, and he hadcomplications and a stroke in
his eye, and and, and he was inbed, and the doctor came, and he
said to him, I'm really notfeeling well. And the doctor
looked at him and said to him,once you stand up, gravity will
take over, will take over. Andthat was like a light bulb for
me. I said, Oh, yeah, gravitytakes over. So I went back home
(31:59):
that day, and I took out thepaints, and I started pouring
them and let gravity make thepainting for me. And it was so
interesting, because when I letthe gravity do it, by tilting by
moving the piece by whatevergravity is doing its action, and
then it droid. And then I said,Okay, that was chance, pure
(32:22):
chance, where is my control nowcoming in. So the gravity series
was starting with let gravitytake over. And then I go over
the painting by saying, Okay,this part is going to be this
color, this part is going to bethat. And it was again, bringing
the two together. And a seriesof about 25 paintings, I think,
(32:43):
were made in the gravity seriesbased on that statement sent by
the doctor.
And that is an absolutely lovelyresponse, isn't it? And,
interestingly, perhaps quite apowerful coping mechanism for
you at the time.
Yeah, I had to, I always hadthree hours in the morning where
(33:06):
I cannot go to hospital. Andthese were the three hours where
I go to the studio, and I justpull my emotions into the paint.
And I must admit, it sounds Iknow it sounds weird what I'm
gonna say, but it was happymoments. Because I was really
getting the negative stress out.And at the same time, color
(33:30):
always speaks to me and colormakes me happy. So it was like
giving me the strength to helpmy husband and it's our times.
I mean, that's so significant.And and perhaps you agree that
that really does speak to theseries question, Can art save
us? Or save us in terms of helpus, help us to help ourselves?
(33:55):
Would you think that is anexample of how art really can
save us in in ways that we maynot always appreciate?
Definitely, these three hoursevery morning is what made me
carry on and gave me as I said,the strength to be with him. And
it wasn't just during hospitaltime, but even when he came
(34:15):
back. I mean, it was a huge openheart surgery. And and I had to
support 100%. And it was oddthat really saved me and gave me
the strength to do that. Notonly then, but in many other
times in my life where thingswere not going well and it was
always art that saved me. Ican't imagine I wouldn't be
(34:37):
without my stitches now.Whenever even I feel down for
any reason I just get into thestudio. And all of a sudden I
look at my paintings on the walland my sculptures and I smile as
if nothing happened. It seems so
important because if we lookedat it in a different way and
said, Imagine that you weredeprived of a Studio or even
(35:01):
just the space or time? What onearth do you think was happened?
How on earth do you think youwould cope in those particular
situations?
I guess I'll create art in mymind. I'm not gonna give up. I
mean, you never know things mayhappen that I'm not well to come
to the studio, then I will usemy my brain to imagine art and
(35:23):
make it in my mind. It's,there's this funny thing about
me that I always believe, makethe best out of any situation.
So if I know I'm going to go tohospital and wait for hours to
do something, I'll just takewith me a nice, lovely art
sketchbook that I can dosomething in there or read a
book about it. So yeah, but Iagree, obviously, often deprive
(35:48):
but then I'll try to findalternatives.
It's interesting, because one ofyour sculptures are a series is
called mammas. Chair. Yes. And,obviously, that is in relation
to the fact that you sadly lostyour mom to terminal illness. So
(36:10):
I wondered if how much you mightwant to talk about that. And
whether that was an act oftherapy or an act of emotional
courage, or both.
Both. What her Well, the reasonI called it Mama's chair,
because as you rightly say, momwas diagnosed with cancer, and
we knew she's gonna die in a fewmonths time. And I was just
(36:32):
towards the end, I was justsitting on a chair all the time,
just try to look after her andcomfort her. So it was always
the chair that I felt was incommon between me and what's
going on in my life with her. Sowhen she died, I decided, okay,
now I'm going to take the chairand cut it up. And I started
(36:53):
collecting futures that Istarted cutting them up and
converting them to things thathas to do that have to do with
her. She loved knitting, sheloved weaving, she loved
crochet. So what I did was Istarted converting parts of the
chair that I was cutting intoweaving looms, and weaving parts
(37:14):
into it. Part of theinstallation was also when, in
our tradition, when the persondies, you, they're washed in a
certain way, which has got a lotof Pharaonic influence in it.
And they wrapped in linen, sevenpieces of linen. And I did this,
(37:36):
I insisted that I do this myselfto my mom, that wrapping her,
which is a mummy happens to bemama, Mommy. So I was wrapping
her as a mommy. And she was alsoa tourist guide, which also
added to the federal that kindof influence, do it. So that
installation had a lot ofmummies being wrapped in
(37:59):
porcelain, as well as chairsthat have been converted into
loans, as well as chairs thatwere having knitted pieces
coming out of the middle as ifit's a womb, and it's the court.
So it was an installation thatreally helped me go through my
(38:21):
grief, because I did itimmediately after she died. And
I felt it was it was notsomething that should make me
feel sad. On the contrary, I wasso over them say happy but I was
really so satisfied with what Iwas doing as an installation.
(38:42):
And it was like a meme memoryfor her what she loved and an
expression of how I felt and howI really grieved her.
Yeah, and it seems a reallyimportant relationship that more
of us need to learn in terms ofhow grief can be helped through
(39:07):
expression, whether that'sartistic expression, or, or
perhaps another form ofexpression that that people
prefer. But it really is animportant relationship that I
think a lot of us lack. There'snot really an existing
relationship with the idea ofloss and grief, and how we will
(39:29):
therefore have thatrelationship.
And you wouldn't know it untilit happens. I mean, I after my
mother a year and a half after Ilost my brother, my only
sibling. And grief is such a bigword. Maybe one day I'm going to
do an installation about it. Butit's such a big word that
doesn't have any rules. Doesn'thave the same rules doesn't
(39:52):
apply the same. Every I mean, Ithought grieving my mom was
going to be the hardest thing onearth until my brother died. And
it was like a fraction of how Ifelt when he died. So it's such
a big, unknown vulnerability atits best. But back to your main
(40:14):
theme art can really make you gothrough grief and make you
through difficult times. Bigdeal.
You've certainly described someabsolutely huge events that are
difficult, you know, yourhusband's open heart surgery,
losing your mom losing yourbrother. And that experience at
(40:38):
the time where it's so crushing,you know, it's hard to navigate.
And then later on when youreflect back from a different
place, is it a resilience youth?Do you think that you've that
you've built? Or is it anacceptance?
(41:01):
I think it's a belief in thestrength and power of art and
the mind and the soul. It'sknowing that you can persevere I
mean, cliche, it's never the endof the world, life will go on.
And life will go on, when youlook back, and you find that
(41:22):
these problems just got smaller,they will never be bigger and
bigger and bigger, although losscannot really be measured the
same way. But still, the pain ofthe loss get smaller. So always
believing and and I think that'smy motto in life, persevere, and
always believe you can overcomeit. But as you know, I'm an art
(41:46):
lover, let art really help youto that, to do that. Believe
that it will take you to abetter place because it will
take you to a better place.
One of the lovely places thatyou take us to, which is one of
my personal favorites is Nubia.Oh, yes. And it's just so
(42:07):
gorgeously colorful, perhaps youcould, you know, give a kind of
description for the for thelisteners who haven't seen it,
but it's gorgeously colorful,and very uplifting. And I'm very
happy.
Yeah, Nubia is a village insouth of Egypt. Part of I
would say for those who traveled,Aswan,
(42:30):
it's along the Nile.It's a very, very small village.
And Nubians obviously weremisplaced. I mean, they have to
move when when they when dam wasbuilt. And although it's a sad
story, but the Nubians as suchare such a lovely community.
They speak a language that noone can understand except them
(42:52):
because it's not a writtenlanguage. It's only spoken. No
one who is not Nubian wouldunderstand it or learn it
because they will not teach itto them. Yeah, we visited three
years ago, I visited before justlike a few hour visit. And yeah,
it was lovely. But then Ithought, I really would like to
(43:13):
go and stay there for a bit. Sowe went and stayed there for a
week. And I'm always interested,again, geometry and
architecture. So thearchitecture of the Nubian
houses is very special. And I'veread a lovely book about it. And
I thought, Oh, now now it's timeto go. You go there, and you
won't believe the colors thatare used you not a single house
(43:38):
has got the same color. But it'snot just like a color, one color
field. But it's the drawing oneach house, the the and
interestingly, it's the womenactually that decorate them
outside and inside. And it'sjust you're in your sounds like
you're in heaven. So we spentand it's, as I said, it's a very
(44:00):
primitive place. So it's notlike a luxurious place, you go
and visit now extremelyprimitive. And the way they even
do it is that somebody has beenpainting their house or their
interiors, and there's thislittle bit of less paint in the
tub. So the next door neighbor,oh, can I just use this for my
stairs and they just all kind ofshare it. They always have open
(44:23):
door policy. So if you pass itby any Nubian house, you're more
than welcome to go in and have acup of tea, whoever you are, not
just foreigners, but just anykind of nationality or Egyptian
for that matter. So it's a placewhere I found you have the
(44:44):
people really wanting to welcomeyou without anything. They don't
need anything from you. Andthey're just opening their arms
and heart and house to you. Iloved it and I was so inspired
not just by The buildings andthe architecture of it, which
I've painted about 40 paintingsout of that. And by the way, I
(45:08):
can't stop doing it. So I keepgoing back. It's a subject that
would never stop, probably. Butthe other thing, which was maybe
interesting to tell about is Iwas never a figurative painting,
painter. I was always interestedin the buildings of the
architecture. But there wasthese three women that, again,
welcomed me as I was walkingwith my husband, and they were
(45:34):
most smiling, happy women I haveever seen in my life. So when I
came back with all thisinspiration, I kind of said, I
owe it to them, I'll do apainting of them. And as I said,
I'm not figurative, and itwasn't about the faces, it was
just the pose and how happy theywere. So I put this painting in
(45:57):
an exhibition. And a professorof fine art came and said to me,
why don't you do figurative? AndI said, Oh, no, no, no, that's
not me. She said, I think youshould you capture their soul.
And that was the start of, Iwould say, another journey with
painting people, faceless, butpeople that has been for the
(46:19):
last three years. And it was allbecause again of Nubia. So nuvia
is a place is a magical place. Iwould urge anyone who goes to a
swan and visit Egypt, I mean, togo there and visit them. It's a
lovely place to stay as well.Lovely food, lovely people,
lovely, everything lovely life,I would say, happy life.
(46:40):
It really sounds remarkable.It's such a unique place that's
naturally full of art, andcolor. And even to have its own
language. No, it's so unique.How did that challenge
communication so that youbecause they're so welcoming at
(47:02):
the same time?
Well, you will never understandwhat they're saying. So if they
want to say something andsecret, they just say it out
loud, and you will never be ableto guess it or know it. But it's
it's I guess you reach a stagewhere you accept the difference
in its real meaning. Becauseeven if you are in any other
(47:24):
multicultural place, you have achance of understanding roughly
what is being said, But you youcan't you can't there, but it
doesn't matter. It doesn'tmatter. It's just you are
dealing with body language,although they speak perfect
English and perfect Arabic. Soit's not that they are not
communicating. But it's betweenthem that they communicate the
(47:46):
Nubian way.
Yeah. And was there any way ofunderstanding the roots to that
culture? Because it's so lovely,but perhaps unusual, that color
and are, you know, thedecorative architecture with
which they make their homesbecame the norm? I mean, sadly,
(48:09):
I mean, if only if only ourinner cities were built the same
way.
Yeah, I remember there was awell, there is a very famous
Egyptian architect called HassanFathy, he, he visited Nubia in
I think it was in the 50s or60s. And, and here is an
architect, he was fascinated byhow they built their houses.
(48:33):
Mind you, these houses arevernacular. So they're all built
by local materials. They're notbuilt in the I wouldn't say the
proper, but they're not builtaccording to architecture rules,
as such, some of them are, andalso how they build I was
talking to one of the families,which was really interesting.
And I said to her, I love yourhouse. And they all want one
(48:53):
floor, more or less. I mean,some are two floors. And she
said, Oh, we acquired that pieceof land. So we built a room. And
then we had a little bit ofmoney. So we bought the next few
meters. And we built anotherroom. So they kind of expand
building a room by room. Iwouldn't say house and house, no
(49:15):
room by room until they manageto have four or five rooms. And
they will always have room forvisitors. And they call it the
travelers room. And I understandfrom a friend who happens to
come from that part. She wastelling me that he as a Nubian
(49:37):
would go to if she's visiting,she doesn't live there anymore.
And if she's visiting Nubia, hecan just knock on any door and
ask to stay overnight and theywill do that. Not because they
know her or not her family, justbecause she is a traveler.
is just incredible, isn't it?It's such a lovely open
(49:59):
community. I have a very kindculture that we have that we
don't see enough of away. And sotalking about heritage, Nubian
heritage and also the heritageof your own family, and we were
talking about your mom earlier.Do you reflect on any childhood
(50:20):
wisdoms or examples or adviceyou were given? Whether it was
your mom or your grandparentsthat have stayed with you that
have guided you throughout yourlife?
Yes, I think I mean, I only knownew grandmother, all the other
three died before I was born, orjust after I was born. So I only
(50:44):
had my grandmother, my maternalgrandmother, he a mom had a lot
of similar kinds of traits andtheir character, and that was
perseverance. And one thing I'velearned from my mum and grandma,
was, if you believe insomething, do it. Don't listen
to the others always listen toyour heart, but persevere. And
(51:09):
my mum, I mean, I come fromEgypt, generally, I've got quite
well, different kinds oftraditions where you really
worry about what people mightmight say, and you're conscious
of it. And my mom was totallyagainst that. And that's one
thing I took from her. She said,You just need to believe in
(51:29):
yourself. Don't let peopleaffect your opinions or your
acts just because you're worriedwhat they might think of you
just do what you think is right,as long as you're right.
I mean, what better advice? Youknow, what fortunate advice for
any young person to hear that?Because it's so easy, isn't it
(51:52):
for the negative mind to justautomatically make you think,
negatively doubtfully, inhibityourself? And actually, your
advice was to throw thoseshackles aside.
At the time, when it wasn't thateasy to do that?
(52:15):
Absolutely. Because you're thesurrounding culture. Yeah, it
wasn't open to that. Because,you know, mindfulness certainly
is encouraging us all to look atthe shackles of our own minds
that actually we can step backfrom what our automatic thoughts
or habitual negative thinkingand start to disallow those
(52:37):
unwanted guests the voice ofshame or guilt or doubt. Is that
something that you think youwork on even now?
Not listening to others?
No, those voices of doubt or,you know, anything negative in
your own mind? Do you think youwork on that yourself even now?
(52:57):
Well, I mean, I'm such apositive person, and I hate
negativity, to be honest. Andeven the negative I considered
positive, because I know that Ican turn it into positive. But
yeah, I mean, there are sometimes when you really doubt
especially in art as an artist,you there are lots of times when
you really doubt what you'redoing is good or not, or is is
(53:19):
right or wrong, or what whatwill people think about it, I
mean, at the end of the day, orthere's such a thing that you
expect others to judge and you,you want to know how they feel
about it, or whether they likeit or not, but I've learned from
time and experience that youwill never create art that
(53:40):
pleases everyone, and you willnever create art that will be
liked by everyone. So as long asyou are true to yourself, and
there are times when I was doingsomething, and my surrounding
family were kind of against itsomehow saying, Oh, I don't
think this is good. And I said,Okay, well, I take your point,
but I'll carry on until the end.And when I finished it, they
(54:02):
said, Oh, actually, you sawsomething we didn't see. So and
even if they still I mean, myhusband still doesn't think that
all my work is good enough, butbe it. That's his taste,
although he's extremelysupportive. I'm not saying he's
not, but I'm just saying therewill be times when people may
have different views about yourwork. But, and even I have some
(54:25):
times these doubts back to yourquestion. But at the end, I kind
of always questioned how I feelabout it. And I always believe
in that thing, we'll asleep overit, every night in between. and I
come in the morning andsomething I really hated find
that actually, it's not reallybad at all. Because when you're
(54:49):
in it, you're almost like notseeing all of it. Sometimes you
really need and when I'mpainting I do a lot of that
where every half an hour or soI'll just leave the easel. Go to
the house and do something, andthen come back and see it with
fresh eyes. So yeah, doubt doescome to our minds a lot. But
then perseverance is what keepsme going and understanding that
(55:13):
Be patient. It's not finishedyet. Just let it finish and then
see what comes out of it.
Yeah, and those spaces, whetherit's 30 minutes between things
that you're doing, whether it'sthe sleep on it overnight, those
spaces are really important actsof mindfulness, you're allowing
your, your mind to have somespace, in order for you to
(55:38):
really be able to think about orreview what you're doing rather
than just powering on through.Yeah. I think space is probably
very underestimated.
Oh, yes. John Cage will tell youthat. Yeah. But yeah, I mean,
(55:59):
it's the space that creates thecontrast, even in an art form.
It's the space where thenegative or certain color that
you have established in betweentwo elements that really makes
you see the two elements. Ifthere wasn't that space, it will
be just one thing.
Yeah, going back to theopposites. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(56:22):
absolutely. And when youconsider that you're really an
artist is in quite an exposedplace, there's always going to
be the judge, jury and critic.We have to be careful, don't
wait that critics are also oftenin the least courageous space.
(56:47):
It's very easy to cast anopinion, but it's much harder to
be in the ring.
Well, I think what is importantis that you listen to the other
opinion, whether it's acritique, or it's a negative
comment, or a positive one forthat matter. It's important to
(57:10):
listen and to question. Youthink so Why? And not that? I'm
challenging it? No, I want tounderstand more. Because maybe
there is a point of view that Ididn't think about or that I can
work on. So it's important tolisten to the others and not
shut them off. Because Oh, Iknow what I'm doing. And I don't
(57:31):
need it. Now. We do needcritics, we do need others
opinions whether for or against.But at the end of the day, I
keep saying this just be true towhat I'm doing. Because I can't
I mean, I'll give you anexample. somebody the other day
was telling me, we don't see youever do flowers? Why don't you
(57:51):
do flowers? And I thought,because I don't feel it's going
to express I mean, I say this,I'm gonna do flowers tomorrow.
But I say, I don't think it'sgoing to express how I feel now.
And it's not really what I'm,what, what, as far as me,
because it has to be a trigger.I mean, like you mentioned,
Nubia, Nubia, oh, was such atrigger, I must have taken 1000
(58:17):
photographs there. And as I saidearlier, I'll carry on doing
with it, and I'll carry beinginspired by it. But a subject
may not necessarily interest meor a color or something. So yes,
I can listen to what others aresaying. But I have to digest it,
take it in, think about it,reflect and then come to a point
(58:42):
where I say, Okay, this is whatI want to do. And this is how I
feel about it. And this isbecause if it doesn't inspire
me, I'm not going to be creatinggood art. It as we said before,
it's thinking and feeling if Idon't feel it, I'm not gonna do
it. The people I was painting inthe last three years, were all
people I saw in the streetswhere something touched me. And
(59:06):
I felt them. So I took aphotograph of them, and then I
worked on it. And it's sointeresting. And they were all
mostly in Egypt. But sointerestingly, that a lot of my
friends and family startedtaking photographs of people and
said, Oh, I think you will likethat. They're right. It's the
kind of the right subject but Isaid, but I didn't take the
(59:27):
picture myself. I didn't feelthem. And so I can't beat it.
Not that it's a bad one. On thecontrary, it's a beautiful one.
National Geographic has got somewonderful photographs that I
would love to paint. But it hasto be true to me. I should have
seen the person and felt him orher to be able to paint him or
her. Yeah, so it's theauthenticity of your own
(59:50):
experience. Yeah. Sounbelievably, our hour has gone
by, well, I know. It would be soeasy to just Keep talking. But
at the beginning of theinterview, I asked if we could
go back to that point when youwere making that decision to
(01:00:10):
leave your shell career andpursue your fine art life. If
you were to talk to Hala now,let's say she was in her shell
office, and it may be on a daythat even though she had made
that decision, she was maybefeeling doubtful. What would you
(01:00:32):
say?
Go for it. Go for it. I wouldsay you should have gone for it
earlier. But then there's alwaysthe right time. And this was the
right time for me. So now Inever looked back. I never
regretted it on the country. Iftime goes back, I may have
(01:00:55):
chosen an earlier time. But theneverything happened at the right
time.
Don't let fear and doubt stopyou. Never, never. Hala, it's
been really, really lovely totalk to you. Thank you so much,
again, for making this timebecause I know you've been so
busy in Egypt with your fabulousexhibition.
(01:01:16):
Pleasure and I really enjoyedit. You took me through a
journey inside me, and I reallyenjoyed that. Thank you very
much. I'm really pleased andI'll see you soon. You soon.
Thank you, Hala. Thank you. Bye.
Bye.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? In this series, I'mtalking to artists, musicians,
filmmakers, actors, art lovers,and other creatives. I'm
exploring how curiosity andcourage not only creates great
art and fuels the arts butcultivates a healthy mind too.
(00:23):
These same attitudes arecultivated in mindfulness
practice with scientific andevidence based results in the
treatment of depression, stressand anxiety. So I'm asking, Can
art save us and help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness
(00:46):
and my guest this week is HalaSabet. Hala was the most senior
Egyptian woman in themultinational oil and gas giant
Shell in Egypt before changingher life to become a fine
artist. Now, Hala works withnature and Islamic geometry,
embracing the universe as amathematical language throughout
her art. Drawing on her Egyptianroots, Hala expresses the
(01:10):
universe through sculpture andpainting, which includes the
magic and mystery of alchemy.She has been selected by the
Royal British society ofsculptors and for the
International Art Fair in Egypt,where she has just had a large
solo exhibition. Once again, sherises, be it business, or art.
(01:31):
Hello Hala, and a very, verywarm welcome. Hello, and a big
welcome because you literallyare only just back from a really
hectic schedule with yourexhibition. So thank you again
for making the time. So hello, Iwondered if we could go straight
to that life changing point inyour life when you decided to
(01:53):
leave shell? Just what were thecircumstances perhaps that led
up to that that made you decideyou were going to make such a
distinct change of direction inyour life?
Well, it was like, I wouldn'tever call it the midlife crisis.
(02:14):
I think it wasn't with a lifesaver. It was Art has always
been inside me. And I've alwaysdone it as a hobby. But then at
some point, I felt what's next.And when you join a corporate
company, and you will,thankfully, I was very
successful and making goodmoney, then you start asking
(02:36):
yourself, Is that what I want todo all my life? And the answer
was no. It's not about achievingjust in the business. And it's
not just about acquiring moremoney, but it's also about
fulfilling your own interests,and and doing what you really
love and be passionate about. SoI was approaching my 40. And I
(02:59):
decided, okay, 40 will be andthat was like two years
beforehand, I said, 40 will be acut off point where I say, I'm
retiring early from thecorporate busy rat race life,
and I want to pursue myhappiness. And I decided to do
that, obviously, at the timeeverybody was against the
(03:22):
decision. And well, I mean,yeah, and I said, be it, I feel
so strongly about it, and I'mgoing to do it. And that is 20
years ago. Now, I never lookedback. And I wanted to
understand, I mean, I had such alove for art. But I felt it
wasn't just a hobby, it neededto be more grounded and more
(03:44):
understood. So I decided to,although I had my degrees
earlier, a BA Honours ineconomics and a master's in mass
communication, I decided no, Iwant to understand art in an
academic way as well. So I wentand did my honours degree in
fine art, followed by my masterand fine art.
(04:06):
So what would you say helped youcommit to such a distinct
change, especially when thereare so many people who even if
they think it's in your bestinterest will advise against
taking any kind of risk? Or whatyou might be losing? Or what you
(04:27):
might be sacrificing? What doyou think power? Do you want to
commit to the change that youwanted to make?
I think it was the inner callthe inner feeling that it is art
what I want to do for the restof my life. I think we come to a
point in our lives where we askthe question, should I just
carry on doing what I'm doing?Or should I change my path,
(04:52):
which I believe would bring memore happiness, and it was my
inner motivation more thananything else? I don't think it
was any out Got a motivation onthe country, the family, the
friends, everybody thought I wascrazy. I was the most senior
Egyptian in the company, andwoman and in the management team
and and Anna had all authorityand I would say power to a great
(05:17):
extent that anyone would dreamto have an achievement, but then
it wasn't fulfilling enough. AndI think you always have to ask
yourself the question, Am Ideeply happy or not? Which ties
very much with your concept ofcuriosity? It's an inner
curiosity, what is it that youreally interested in and
(05:37):
passionate about? And I knew itwas art in its general form that
I wanted to do for the rest ofmy life.
It's really interesting how thatneed for expression, or even the
need just to be curious, so thatyou can explore, you know, your
artistic interests. It'sinteresting how it suddenly
(06:02):
emerges is as though it'ssomething that's been kind of
pushed down in some way. But itgets to a point where it can't
be ignored anymore. It soundslike that's the point. You got
to
Yeah, it's like a volcano. It'salways there. But there will be
a point where it just comes out.
(06:24):
What do you think it is? That'shappiness, it's really
interesting that you keepemphasizing happiness. Why do
you think it is that the pursuitof happiness almost has to
become an act of bravery, itinvolves other sacrifices.
First of all, my firm belief isthat happiness comes from
(06:47):
within, if we are only going towait for happiness to be
provided to us, then it willnever arrive. So if it comes
from within, and you know thatgoing through this path will
lead to it. It's not an easypath. Why it needs bravery,
because probably you're takingrisks. And always, many people
(07:10):
always like to live on the safeside of the road. But it's high
risk, high reward that alwayssay whether financially or, or
in life. So sometimes you doneed to take these risks, to
explore and find out whetherthis is the right path for you
or not. And it's not just aboutbeing the right path or not. But
(07:31):
is it the path that makes youhappy? And I agree with you, I
keep emphasizing emphasizingthis. It's happiness that I was
seeking, rather than any othermeasurable kind of so called
happiness?
And do you think that yourbusiness acumen, the resilience
(07:54):
that you probably learned, as asenior professional informs how
you negotiated and managed thattransition in terms of your
pursuit as a fine artist? Isthat where you think your
resilience came from, to helpyou commit to that direction?
(08:14):
Definitely. I mean, when Idecided that this is what I'm
gonna do, and I'm gonna retireearly on, I remember talking to
my boss, the chairman of thecompany at the time, and saying
to him, I'm giving you two yearsnotice. And he laughed, and he
said, Are you really serious? Isaid, Yes, I've planned that in
(08:34):
my head. And now it's time toexcuted. And definitely, it was.
I mean, I must admit, there wasa bit of luck involved as well,
that I managed to securefinancially a bit what's going
to happen later, at least in thebeginning of that new life? I
would say, but, yeah, I mean,back to your question. Yeah, I
(08:58):
think I think I knew what I wasdoing. I wasn't sure it was
right. But I knew deep insidethat it needed to be done.
Yeah, because I think mostaccounts of artists lives past
and present. Unless they're fromvery wealthy, privileged
settings, the majorityexperience a lot of insecurity
(09:21):
and a lot of uncertainty. Haveyou ever felt particularly
vulnerable? Once you Yeah,
yeah. But I just want to go backto that point, you were
mentioning about me in thecareer, how did it really affect
taking the decision in a way? Ialways believe and I think this
is, I mean, it's not my theory.It's a theory of every
(09:44):
Management School. Management isabout how decisions management
is not just to sit and solve thenormal problems, but it's about
the challenges and reallysolving the challenging,
difficult problems. And I thinkthis will One of them, it was
like, I'm facing this decisioninternally whether I go for it,
(10:04):
and it was taking the decisionthat this is a difficult one,
but I'm gonna take it. Andthat's what all management is
about, I guess.
Yeah. So it does seem like thatyou were already very well
grounded and had that strongsense of resilience in terms of
how you could meet risk, whetherit's personally or
(10:24):
professionally.
Yeah, back to your vulnerabilitypoint. Yes, there were so many
cases. I mean, in the beginning,it took me about a year and a
half or so to overcome thefeeling of guilt. Gosh, I wake
up in the morning, I should goto the office, I wake up in the
morning, and what's going tohappen the end of the month, so
(10:47):
there were like, but then theyall became fantasies, they all
became just ideas in our minds,they're not reality. And
eventually, I got over it, and Ican't think that I would ever
consider again, ever going backto this kind of life.
(11:07):
It's really interesting that youhighlight guilt. Because it's
not as though you've made achoice for bad reasons, you
know, you've not harmed anybody,you know. But yet guilt creeps
in and, and for some even asense of shame, as if they've
(11:28):
done something wrong. Do youthink that that related to the
change in culture that perhapsthe business world is more
visibly rewarded than the artworld? And was Was there a sense
of guilt in terms of making thatchange?
There was partly that sense,because obviously, you're giving
(11:51):
up regular income, with my kindof level at the time, it was
quite high. And that high levelof security and you you're just
diving into the unknown, and notknowing whether you will ever be
able to make a fraction of thatmoney or not. But I guess it was
a decision taken that I have tocompromise certain things. And
(12:14):
when I say compromise, notcompromise it negatively, but
actually compromise itpositively. And you start asking
yourself the question, what isit that's important? Is it
having a bigger house and thebigger car? Or is it having a
better way of expressingyourself? So things become so
different? You start looking atlife in a totally different way.
(12:37):
And you really become morehonest with your real needs,
what they are? And can you giveup this? Whatever luxury you are
having, for the sake of pursuingyour dreams or not? And yeah,
the answer was definitely yes.
And it sounds like you are verycapable of recognizing, you
know, that voice of guilt thatwe all carry in our heads a bit
(13:00):
like the voice of doubt, youknow, when we we lose
confidence, or we hold ourselvesback, just through doubt. But it
sounds like you were very goodat recognizing that that's a
voice that even though itinvites itself in, you can also
ask that voice to leave.
(13:21):
Yes. And I must admit whathelped me and the process was,
which is another form ofmindfulness is I write my diary,
and I wrote it for myself, I'dnever think of anyone would ever
even look at it. But in mydiary, I discovered that I just
automatic write withoutthinking. And when I go back to
(13:42):
read what I've written, I can'trecognize anything. I can't even
believe I wrote that. And therewere some times where I felt a
bit doubtful about my decision.And I went back afterwards to
see what I was writing. And itturned out that I was so sure of
myself. On the outside, itdidn't look so but actually, I
was really so sure of what I'mdoing with all the touring me.
(14:05):
Yeah, it's really fascinating,isn't it to be able to look back
and it's very purposeful. Isn'tit having those diaries of
expression? Yeah. I don't knowif you heard of the research
professor Brene. Brown, shebecame hugely successful through
her TED Talk. But she'simmensely interesting, the way
(14:26):
she has researched and talksabout things like vulnerability
and courage and shame. And Ijust want to share an
interesting quote to see whatyour responses so she describes
vulnerability as our mostaccurate measurement of courage.
(14:49):
Yeah, it's almost like you're ona how do you call it like on a
balance? It's you're about tofall. Which is where you are
vulnerable, but actually notfalling. And realizing that you
might fall gives you thestrength to hold yourself up.
(15:09):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that does. And it'sinteresting, actually. Because
in your work, you make use ofopposites, don't you? Yeah. And
that seems to resonate there.Yeah, perhaps you could talk
about that, particularly fromthe listeners point of view how
you integrate the idea ofopposites in your work? Well, I
(15:31):
mean, I'm always interested insomething and its opposite
geometry and its organic form.precariousness versus really
stability. Even say black andwhite, it's just that that in
between. And I think it verymuch resonates with your
vulnerability, strength kind ofpoint of view. The in between,
(15:58):
the opposite is where, in mybelief is where the truth is, is
where the reality is. And I liketo, I mean, when I'm making any
kind of art, whether it's apainting or a sculpture, I'm
treating the form as it comes.So there's a lot of chance given
to it. And any accident isalways welcome in my work. And
(16:21):
then, after allowing it to takeall its accidental, go, I like
to take control. And there comesthen the, the other opposite of
it. So by allowing the two tohappen, the control on one side,
and the chance on the otherside, and let them both kind of
(16:43):
integrate together and blendtogether, you reach a new
identity, which has got the twoelements of it. And in my, in my
belief, and in my art. That'sthe one. And it's always the two
together. It's not either, or,it's allowing the two to work
together.
Yeah, that's interesting,because it's also really
(17:05):
highlighting the importance ofacceptance, isn't it, though?
Yes. Both exist in whatever theopposites are, rather than
resisting But accepting a bitlike accepting being vulnerable?
Because it has its purpose, forexample? Yeah. It seems that
you're exploring a kind ofharmony as well, in terms of
(17:30):
acknowledging both sides of anopposite?
Well, I mean, if you look at myartist statement, that's exactly
what I'm saying, allowing thetwo together. I mean, they
suppose that they should clash,allowing this clash to arrive at
a harmonious point. And that'swhat I'm satisfied with the work
(17:51):
is interesting, because on yourhomepage, the quote that arises
from Galileo, are quoted nowsays, the universe is written in
the language of mathematics, andits characters are triangles,
circles, and other geometricfigures. And I know that that
(18:13):
quote, can also go on to say,without which it is humanly
impossible to understand asingle word of it. Can you tell
us about your choice inhighlighting that particular
quote?
I guess part of it was that Iview the world in shapes. I view
(18:37):
Well, I always like to go to theessence of anything. And when I
was kind of reading intoGeometry, and and I think it's
in my statement, as well,geometry, the word derives from
Geo metri, which is themeasurement of Earth. And I was
reading a book about art andgeometry. And apparently, the
(18:58):
first time ever, geometry wasencountered, funnily enough, was
in Egypt, where they weremeasuring the earth after the
flood. So they divided the Earthinto rectangles and squares. And
that's how the whole notion ofgeometry started. And it
fascinated me because I thought,so that's the origin. And what
(19:22):
then how can I kind of translatethis into my artwork? And I
started thinking actually, I canlook at anything as a geometric
shape. And that could be theorigin of it. And obviously, I
don't want to say the the clicheand obvious that you can turn a
human figure into circles andcylinders and what have you, but
(19:42):
actually, you can turn anythinginto its geometric form and it
will give you the essence of it.So I chose this statement
because I felt it really kind oftakes me to the roots of life,
not just optometry or art Butlife, and I thought it was very
(20:03):
appropriate to use it.
Yeah, that's interesting,because another comment I've
seen on that particular quote,refers to mathematics as the
alphabet with which God haswritten the universe. And that
(20:23):
just struck me as though it wasa kind of biblical coding. And
it made me wonder whetherthere's a sense of security by
understanding the universethrough a mathematical
structure.
Yeah, yeah, there's a kind ofgrounding. And and, yeah, you
(20:47):
feel like there's a foundation,you're going into that you're
building a foundation and thatfoundation, being mathematical
and geometric, it's kind ofanchoring it in place. And I
don't want to delve into Platoand Aristotle and what they
talked about geometry. But thepoint is, you can understand a
lot, sort of thinkinggeometrically. And although it
(21:10):
sounds a bit philosophical andbit complicated, but actually
it's not, it's just simplifyinglife and things into shapes, and
putting them in a certain simpleformat that we all understand.
He seems that you have a reallyclear vision and response to
this, this idea of if geometryand a mathematical universe, but
(21:34):
at the same time, you canembrace very happily, the
unknown and the in betweens.
Yeah. I mean, the thing if if Ionly rely on this measured part,
which is the geometry of themathematics, I can never create,
I have to, as I mentionedearlier, I have to have the two
together, I have to let thechance I have to let the
(21:56):
organic, I cannot have apainting, or a sculpture, that
is just hard edge pieces. But itI have to allow nature to come
into it as well. And I alwayslove it when things go wrong. I
know it sounds funny, but Ireally love it when things go
wrong. Because then I feel, ah,an upper power has taken charge
(22:21):
here. And I like that. And Iallow it to and then it's again,
the blending and the merging ofthe two together. That gives me
the final piece that I'm happywith.
It's really interesting that youcan say I love it when things go
wrong, because of course, thoseare the times when most of us
can feel very vulnerable becausesomething's gone wrong. But you
(22:44):
have a strong sense of welcomingthat.
Yes. And acceptance. And I guessalso belief, because testing it
in an art form. I mean, althougheven in life, I would say but
we're here talking about art. Sotesting it in the art form, I
discovered that it's when Iaccepted the mistakes. And when
(23:06):
I well I to mistakes, but theyturned out at the end not to be
mistakes, actually solutions.But when I accept what I did not
expect is when it works. And Ifind that it's a challenge that
now I need to resolve. And Ifind that actually is resolving
itself naturally. Which again,back to the opposites.
(23:28):
Yeah, and the opposites. Youknow, your your emphasis on
embracing opposites is reallyimportant. Because it's a space
of discovery, isn't it if wedisallow the possibility of
something going wrong, or notbeing what we expect, we're
disallowing another creativediscovery or an alternative
(23:52):
discovery.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Theyalways say, thinking and feeling
together is what really makesgood art. And I always believe
in that it's not just thinkingand measuring and writing the
right thing. It's also feelinggood and feeling is very much
(24:12):
linked to vulnerability is verymuch linked to imagination is
very much linked to the unknown,because you feel it, but you
can't describe it properly. Andit's allowing this feeling to
come out in whatever formexpected or unexpected is what
will lead you then to find whatyou're making is, at least is
(24:33):
good. It's a good expression ofyourself or not. Because at the
end of the day, there is noright and wrong in art. It's how
true you are to yourself. Andthis was one of the challenges
that I kind of realized when Ileft shell and I decided to do
the art and also it was at thesame time a decision to come and
(24:54):
live permanently in the UK. I'mchanging my culture Changing the
surrounding. And although Ilived in the UK before, but this
was like this another majordecision, which was, by the way,
at the same time of comingpermanently and living in the
UK. And a big question was, Howcan I be true to myself? Because
(25:19):
I cannot just say, Okay, I'll bemaking art that suits the UK.
No, I make art that suits me.That is true to myself. And I
cannot deny my background andcultural background. And it was
always a challenging one. And itwas also a vulnerable one,
actually. But I am glad I stayedtrue to myself. And I try as
(25:43):
best as possible to stay true tomyself and my art would always
express. But again, another twoopposites, it could be so it
could be still the two culturestogether, because what I make
may not necessarily be pureEgyptian or pure British, or
pure, whatever. But it's, again,a mix of the surrounding and it
makes of who I am.
(26:04):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's veryclear that you're the Islamic
geometry. You know, that's,that's such a core part of your
work is very true to yourEgyptian roots. Yeah. And it's
interesting because your geometri series, an installation of
(26:26):
wood structures you describe asdepicting the genius of Islamic
geometry. How would you describeor explain what that genius is,
I'll tell you, in a very briefword, distort any of the
patterns that you have seenaround in mosques, and Alhambra
(26:49):
in different places. All Islamicgeometry starts from two tools,
a compass, and what they call astraight edge, not even calling
it a ruler, all you need to dois draw a circle. And that
circle can be any size. So thereis no measurement whatsoever,
(27:10):
just draw a circle and startdividing it into segments. And
from that division, you createthe most beautiful patterns,
and, and ornaments and what haveyou from just the simplicity,
which again, takes me back toGalileo and what he said about
(27:30):
the simple shapes. It's only thecircle and the line that is
making all this it's not themeasurement of it. It's not how
how, how long, or how wide itis, it's how you have divided
it, and created theseastonishing patterns out of it.
And this is what really drew meto the Islamic geometry. So So I
(27:53):
thought, well, actually, I wouldlike to learn it. And and I went
on different courses, studyingit in London. And the more you
study, the more you find itsimple. But it's just allowing,
again, the unknown. So allowingthat what if I take the line
that way? What if I divide thecircle that way? And you end up
(28:16):
with marvelous results?
And what is the feeling whenwe're talking about thinking and
feeling what is the feeling thatyou have or enjoying most when
you have decided that a piece ofwork is finished?
(28:36):
Before I answered that, I wantto say that when when you're in
the zone of creating art, it'salmost like you're somewhere
else, you're not reallyconscious 100% of what's going
on around you. So it's gettinginto this zone where you hand
and mind are working together.And I remember doing a paper
(28:57):
about that, where there is aneurological link between what
you do with your hands and howthe brain works. So because your
hands are touching the work ortouching something you're
materially working with, andyour brain is thinking how you
you're manipulating it, it'sthis interaction between the two
that is creating at the end somepiece of art. Now, when you're
(29:21):
doing this, your brain isworking. So that's the thinking
side, but and your hands aremoving and interacting. And
that's tangible. There's a fieldso it's that feeling of the
interaction with the materialsplus the thinking process going
on that both of us when the bothof them when they come together,
(29:44):
they make the art that's my owntheory. And that's how I think
it works for me at least.
And and then do you have afeeling of joy or happiness or
what I'll tell you an example,which actually is today, more
than any other day. I've justfinished, as you mentioned
(30:06):
earlier, a huge solo exhibitionin Egypt. And, and I feel
internally that I want toexplore a new direction in
painting. And for some reason, Ifeel I just want to go back to
basics of abstract art. And atthe mall today, in particular, I
said, Okay, now what is it thatI'm going to be doing? Is it
(30:28):
just listening to my feelings?And then part of me said, Yes,
but also, you've got to havesome know how, or some knowledge
of what you want to do. And itwas a typical example of the
mind is thinking, but thefeeling wants to come out. And I
think I've reached a stageprobably by the end of the day
where I've tried to put the twotogether and try to create some
(30:51):
abstract thought that I want todo.
So yes, thing because you're,you're very open, aren't you to
elements of chance? Oh, yeah.And I think that came out in the
gravity series. Yes. That willdo show it because then also,
just to give the listeners somecontext, it was almost like a
(31:13):
scientific explorations, butI'll let you share the story
behind it.
Well, gravity was at the time,my husband had a heart attack,
and he went to hospital. Andobviously, I was devastated. And
I didn't know what to do. And Iwasn't allowed all the time in
the hospital. But after he hadan open heart surgery, which was
(31:34):
really major, and he hadcomplications and a stroke in
his eye, and and, and he was inbed, and the doctor came, and he
said to him, I'm really notfeeling well. And the doctor
looked at him and said to him,once you stand up, gravity will
take over, will take over. Andthat was like a light bulb for
me. I said, Oh, yeah, gravitytakes over. So I went back home
(31:59):
that day, and I took out thepaints, and I started pouring
them and let gravity make thepainting for me. And it was so
interesting, because when I letthe gravity do it, by tilting by
moving the piece by whatevergravity is doing its action, and
then it droid. And then I said,Okay, that was chance, pure
(32:22):
chance, where is my control nowcoming in. So the gravity series
was starting with let gravitytake over. And then I go over
the painting by saying, Okay,this part is going to be this
color, this part is going to bethat. And it was again, bringing
the two together. And a seriesof about 25 paintings, I think,
(32:43):
were made in the gravity seriesbased on that statement sent by
the doctor.
And that is an absolutely lovelyresponse, isn't it? And,
interestingly, perhaps quite apowerful coping mechanism for
you at the time.
Yeah, I had to, I always hadthree hours in the morning where
(33:06):
I cannot go to hospital. Andthese were the three hours where
I go to the studio, and I justpull my emotions into the paint.
And I must admit, it sounds Iknow it sounds weird what I'm
gonna say, but it was happymoments. Because I was really
getting the negative stress out.And at the same time, color
(33:30):
always speaks to me and colormakes me happy. So it was like
giving me the strength to helpmy husband and it's our times.
I mean, that's so significant.And and perhaps you agree that
that really does speak to theseries question, Can art save
us? Or save us in terms of helpus, help us to help ourselves?
(33:55):
Would you think that is anexample of how art really can
save us in in ways that we maynot always appreciate?
Definitely, these three hoursevery morning is what made me
carry on and gave me as I said,the strength to be with him. And
it wasn't just during hospitaltime, but even when he came
(34:15):
back. I mean, it was a huge openheart surgery. And and I had to
support 100%. And it was oddthat really saved me and gave me
the strength to do that. Notonly then, but in many other
times in my life where thingswere not going well and it was
always art that saved me. Ican't imagine I wouldn't be
(34:37):
without my stitches now.Whenever even I feel down for
any reason I just get into thestudio. And all of a sudden I
look at my paintings on the walland my sculptures and I smile as
if nothing happened. It seems so
important because if we lookedat it in a different way and
said, Imagine that you weredeprived of a Studio or even
(35:01):
just the space or time? What onearth do you think was happened?
How on earth do you think youwould cope in those particular
situations?
I guess I'll create art in mymind. I'm not gonna give up. I
mean, you never know things mayhappen that I'm not well to come
to the studio, then I will usemy my brain to imagine art and
(35:23):
make it in my mind. It's,there's this funny thing about
me that I always believe, makethe best out of any situation.
So if I know I'm going to go tohospital and wait for hours to
do something, I'll just takewith me a nice, lovely art
sketchbook that I can dosomething in there or read a
book about it. So yeah, but Iagree, obviously, often deprive
(35:48):
but then I'll try to findalternatives.
It's interesting, because one ofyour sculptures are a series is
called mammas. Chair. Yes. And,obviously, that is in relation
to the fact that you sadly lostyour mom to terminal illness. So
(36:10):
I wondered if how much you mightwant to talk about that. And
whether that was an act oftherapy or an act of emotional
courage, or both.
Both. What her Well, the reasonI called it Mama's chair,
because as you rightly say, momwas diagnosed with cancer, and
we knew she's gonna die in a fewmonths time. And I was just
(36:32):
towards the end, I was justsitting on a chair all the time,
just try to look after her andcomfort her. So it was always
the chair that I felt was incommon between me and what's
going on in my life with her. Sowhen she died, I decided, okay,
now I'm going to take the chairand cut it up. And I started
(36:53):
collecting futures that Istarted cutting them up and
converting them to things thathas to do that have to do with
her. She loved knitting, sheloved weaving, she loved
crochet. So what I did was Istarted converting parts of the
chair that I was cutting intoweaving looms, and weaving parts
(37:14):
into it. Part of theinstallation was also when, in
our tradition, when the persondies, you, they're washed in a
certain way, which has got a lotof Pharaonic influence in it.
And they wrapped in linen, sevenpieces of linen. And I did this,
(37:36):
I insisted that I do this myselfto my mom, that wrapping her,
which is a mummy happens to bemama, Mommy. So I was wrapping
her as a mommy. And she was alsoa tourist guide, which also
added to the federal that kindof influence, do it. So that
installation had a lot ofmummies being wrapped in
(37:59):
porcelain, as well as chairsthat have been converted into
loans, as well as chairs thatwere having knitted pieces
coming out of the middle as ifit's a womb, and it's the court.
So it was an installation thatreally helped me go through my
(38:21):
grief, because I did itimmediately after she died. And
I felt it was it was notsomething that should make me
feel sad. On the contrary, I wasso over them say happy but I was
really so satisfied with what Iwas doing as an installation.
(38:42):
And it was like a meme memoryfor her what she loved and an
expression of how I felt and howI really grieved her.
Yeah, and it seems a reallyimportant relationship that more
of us need to learn in terms ofhow grief can be helped through
(39:07):
expression, whether that'sartistic expression, or, or
perhaps another form ofexpression that that people
prefer. But it really is animportant relationship that I
think a lot of us lack. There'snot really an existing
relationship with the idea ofloss and grief, and how we will
(39:29):
therefore have thatrelationship.
And you wouldn't know it untilit happens. I mean, I after my
mother a year and a half after Ilost my brother, my only
sibling. And grief is such a bigword. Maybe one day I'm going to
do an installation about it. Butit's such a big word that
doesn't have any rules. Doesn'thave the same rules doesn't
(39:52):
apply the same. Every I mean, Ithought grieving my mom was
going to be the hardest thing onearth until my brother died. And
it was like a fraction of how Ifelt when he died. So it's such
a big, unknown vulnerability atits best. But back to your main
(40:14):
theme art can really make you gothrough grief and make you
through difficult times. Bigdeal.
You've certainly described someabsolutely huge events that are
difficult, you know, yourhusband's open heart surgery,
losing your mom losing yourbrother. And that experience at
(40:38):
the time where it's so crushing,you know, it's hard to navigate.
And then later on when youreflect back from a different
place, is it a resilience youth?Do you think that you've that
you've built? Or is it anacceptance?
(41:01):
I think it's a belief in thestrength and power of art and
the mind and the soul. It'sknowing that you can persevere I
mean, cliche, it's never the endof the world, life will go on.
And life will go on, when youlook back, and you find that
(41:22):
these problems just got smaller,they will never be bigger and
bigger and bigger, although losscannot really be measured the
same way. But still, the pain ofthe loss get smaller. So always
believing and and I think that'smy motto in life, persevere, and
always believe you can overcomeit. But as you know, I'm an art
(41:46):
lover, let art really help youto that, to do that. Believe
that it will take you to abetter place because it will
take you to a better place.
One of the lovely places thatyou take us to, which is one of
my personal favorites is Nubia.Oh, yes. And it's just so
(42:07):
gorgeously colorful, perhaps youcould, you know, give a kind of
description for the for thelisteners who haven't seen it,
but it's gorgeously colorful,and very uplifting. And I'm very
happy.
Yeah, Nubia is a village insouth of Egypt. Part of I
would say for those who traveled,Aswan,
(42:30):
it's along the Nile.It's a very, very small village.
And Nubians obviously weremisplaced. I mean, they have to
move when when they when dam wasbuilt. And although it's a sad
story, but the Nubians as suchare such a lovely community.
They speak a language that noone can understand except them
(42:52):
because it's not a writtenlanguage. It's only spoken. No
one who is not Nubian wouldunderstand it or learn it
because they will not teach itto them. Yeah, we visited three
years ago, I visited before justlike a few hour visit. And yeah,
it was lovely. But then Ithought, I really would like to
(43:13):
go and stay there for a bit. Sowe went and stayed there for a
week. And I'm always interested,again, geometry and
architecture. So thearchitecture of the Nubian
houses is very special. And I'veread a lovely book about it. And
I thought, Oh, now now it's timeto go. You go there, and you
won't believe the colors thatare used you not a single house
(43:38):
has got the same color. But it'snot just like a color, one color
field. But it's the drawing oneach house, the the and
interestingly, it's the womenactually that decorate them
outside and inside. And it'sjust you're in your sounds like
you're in heaven. So we spentand it's, as I said, it's a very
(44:00):
primitive place. So it's notlike a luxurious place, you go
and visit now extremelyprimitive. And the way they even
do it is that somebody has beenpainting their house or their
interiors, and there's thislittle bit of less paint in the
tub. So the next door neighbor,oh, can I just use this for my
stairs and they just all kind ofshare it. They always have open
(44:23):
door policy. So if you pass itby any Nubian house, you're more
than welcome to go in and have acup of tea, whoever you are, not
just foreigners, but just anykind of nationality or Egyptian
for that matter. So it's a placewhere I found you have the
(44:44):
people really wanting to welcomeyou without anything. They don't
need anything from you. Andthey're just opening their arms
and heart and house to you. Iloved it and I was so inspired
not just by The buildings andthe architecture of it, which
I've painted about 40 paintingsout of that. And by the way, I
(45:08):
can't stop doing it. So I keepgoing back. It's a subject that
would never stop, probably. Butthe other thing, which was maybe
interesting to tell about is Iwas never a figurative painting,
painter. I was always interestedin the buildings of the
architecture. But there wasthese three women that, again,
welcomed me as I was walkingwith my husband, and they were
(45:34):
most smiling, happy women I haveever seen in my life. So when I
came back with all thisinspiration, I kind of said, I
owe it to them, I'll do apainting of them. And as I said,
I'm not figurative, and itwasn't about the faces, it was
just the pose and how happy theywere. So I put this painting in
(45:57):
an exhibition. And a professorof fine art came and said to me,
why don't you do figurative? AndI said, Oh, no, no, no, that's
not me. She said, I think youshould you capture their soul.
And that was the start of, Iwould say, another journey with
painting people, faceless, butpeople that has been for the
(46:19):
last three years. And it was allbecause again of Nubia. So nuvia
is a place is a magical place. Iwould urge anyone who goes to a
swan and visit Egypt, I mean, togo there and visit them. It's a
lovely place to stay as well.Lovely food, lovely people,
lovely, everything lovely life,I would say, happy life.
(46:40):
It really sounds remarkable.It's such a unique place that's
naturally full of art, andcolor. And even to have its own
language. No, it's so unique.How did that challenge
communication so that youbecause they're so welcoming at
(47:02):
the same time?
Well, you will never understandwhat they're saying. So if they
want to say something andsecret, they just say it out
loud, and you will never be ableto guess it or know it. But it's
it's I guess you reach a stagewhere you accept the difference
in its real meaning. Becauseeven if you are in any other
(47:24):
multicultural place, you have achance of understanding roughly
what is being said, But you youcan't you can't there, but it
doesn't matter. It doesn'tmatter. It's just you are
dealing with body language,although they speak perfect
English and perfect Arabic. Soit's not that they are not
communicating. But it's betweenthem that they communicate the
(47:46):
Nubian way.
Yeah. And was there any way ofunderstanding the roots to that
culture? Because it's so lovely,but perhaps unusual, that color
and are, you know, thedecorative architecture with
which they make their homesbecame the norm? I mean, sadly,
(48:09):
I mean, if only if only ourinner cities were built the same
way.
Yeah, I remember there was awell, there is a very famous
Egyptian architect called HassanFathy, he, he visited Nubia in
I think it was in the 50s or60s. And, and here is an
architect, he was fascinated byhow they built their houses.
(48:33):
Mind you, these houses arevernacular. So they're all built
by local materials. They're notbuilt in the I wouldn't say the
proper, but they're not builtaccording to architecture rules,
as such, some of them are, andalso how they build I was
talking to one of the families,which was really interesting.
And I said to her, I love yourhouse. And they all want one
(48:53):
floor, more or less. I mean,some are two floors. And she
said, Oh, we acquired that pieceof land. So we built a room. And
then we had a little bit ofmoney. So we bought the next few
meters. And we built anotherroom. So they kind of expand
building a room by room. Iwouldn't say house and house, no
(49:15):
room by room until they manageto have four or five rooms. And
they will always have room forvisitors. And they call it the
travelers room. And I understandfrom a friend who happens to
come from that part. She wastelling me that he as a Nubian
(49:37):
would go to if she's visiting,she doesn't live there anymore.
And if she's visiting Nubia, hecan just knock on any door and
ask to stay overnight and theywill do that. Not because they
know her or not her family, justbecause she is a traveler.
is just incredible, isn't it?It's such a lovely open
(49:59):
community. I have a very kindculture that we have that we
don't see enough of away. And sotalking about heritage, Nubian
heritage and also the heritageof your own family, and we were
talking about your mom earlier.Do you reflect on any childhood
(50:20):
wisdoms or examples or adviceyou were given? Whether it was
your mom or your grandparentsthat have stayed with you that
have guided you throughout yourlife?
Yes, I think I mean, I only knownew grandmother, all the other
three died before I was born, orjust after I was born. So I only
(50:44):
had my grandmother, my maternalgrandmother, he a mom had a lot
of similar kinds of traits andtheir character, and that was
perseverance. And one thing I'velearned from my mum and grandma,
was, if you believe insomething, do it. Don't listen
to the others always listen toyour heart, but persevere. And
(51:09):
my mum, I mean, I come fromEgypt, generally, I've got quite
well, different kinds oftraditions where you really
worry about what people mightmight say, and you're conscious
of it. And my mom was totallyagainst that. And that's one
thing I took from her. She said,You just need to believe in
(51:29):
yourself. Don't let peopleaffect your opinions or your
acts just because you're worriedwhat they might think of you
just do what you think is right,as long as you're right.
I mean, what better advice? Youknow, what fortunate advice for
any young person to hear that?Because it's so easy, isn't it
(51:52):
for the negative mind to justautomatically make you think,
negatively doubtfully, inhibityourself? And actually, your
advice was to throw thoseshackles aside.
At the time, when it wasn't thateasy to do that?
(52:15):
Absolutely. Because you're thesurrounding culture. Yeah, it
wasn't open to that. Because,you know, mindfulness certainly
is encouraging us all to look atthe shackles of our own minds
that actually we can step backfrom what our automatic thoughts
or habitual negative thinkingand start to disallow those
(52:37):
unwanted guests the voice ofshame or guilt or doubt. Is that
something that you think youwork on even now?
Not listening to others?
No, those voices of doubt or,you know, anything negative in
your own mind? Do you think youwork on that yourself even now?
(52:57):
Well, I mean, I'm such apositive person, and I hate
negativity, to be honest. Andeven the negative I considered
positive, because I know that Ican turn it into positive. But
yeah, I mean, there are sometimes when you really doubt
especially in art as an artist,you there are lots of times when
you really doubt what you'redoing is good or not, or is is
(53:19):
right or wrong, or what whatwill people think about it, I
mean, at the end of the day, orthere's such a thing that you
expect others to judge and you,you want to know how they feel
about it, or whether they likeit or not, but I've learned from
time and experience that youwill never create art that
(53:40):
pleases everyone, and you willnever create art that will be
liked by everyone. So as long asyou are true to yourself, and
there are times when I was doingsomething, and my surrounding
family were kind of against itsomehow saying, Oh, I don't
think this is good. And I said,Okay, well, I take your point,
but I'll carry on until the end.And when I finished it, they
(54:02):
said, Oh, actually, you sawsomething we didn't see. So and
even if they still I mean, myhusband still doesn't think that
all my work is good enough, butbe it. That's his taste,
although he's extremelysupportive. I'm not saying he's
not, but I'm just saying therewill be times when people may
have different views about yourwork. But, and even I have some
(54:25):
times these doubts back to yourquestion. But at the end, I kind
of always questioned how I feelabout it. And I always believe
in that thing, we'll asleep overit, every night in between. and I
come in the morning andsomething I really hated find
that actually, it's not reallybad at all. Because when you're
(54:49):
in it, you're almost like notseeing all of it. Sometimes you
really need and when I'mpainting I do a lot of that
where every half an hour or soI'll just leave the easel. Go to
the house and do something, andthen come back and see it with
fresh eyes. So yeah, doubt doescome to our minds a lot. But
then perseverance is what keepsme going and understanding that
(55:13):
Be patient. It's not finishedyet. Just let it finish and then
see what comes out of it.
Yeah, and those spaces, whetherit's 30 minutes between things
that you're doing, whether it'sthe sleep on it overnight, those
spaces are really important actsof mindfulness, you're allowing
your, your mind to have somespace, in order for you to
(55:38):
really be able to think about orreview what you're doing rather
than just powering on through.Yeah. I think space is probably
very underestimated.
Oh, yes. John Cage will tell youthat. Yeah. But yeah, I mean,
(55:59):
it's the space that creates thecontrast, even in an art form.
It's the space where thenegative or certain color that
you have established in betweentwo elements that really makes
you see the two elements. Ifthere wasn't that space, it will
be just one thing.
Yeah, going back to theopposites. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(56:22):
absolutely. And when youconsider that you're really an
artist is in quite an exposedplace, there's always going to
be the judge, jury and critic.We have to be careful, don't
wait that critics are also oftenin the least courageous space.
(56:47):
It's very easy to cast anopinion, but it's much harder to
be in the ring.
Well, I think what is importantis that you listen to the other
opinion, whether it's acritique, or it's a negative
comment, or a positive one forthat matter. It's important to
(57:10):
listen and to question. Youthink so Why? And not that? I'm
challenging it? No, I want tounderstand more. Because maybe
there is a point of view that Ididn't think about or that I can
work on. So it's important tolisten to the others and not
shut them off. Because Oh, Iknow what I'm doing. And I don't
(57:31):
need it. Now. We do needcritics, we do need others
opinions whether for or against.But at the end of the day, I
keep saying this just be true towhat I'm doing. Because I can't
I mean, I'll give you anexample. somebody the other day
was telling me, we don't see youever do flowers? Why don't you
(57:51):
do flowers? And I thought,because I don't feel it's going
to express I mean, I say this,I'm gonna do flowers tomorrow.
But I say, I don't think it'sgoing to express how I feel now.
And it's not really what I'm,what, what, as far as me,
because it has to be a trigger.I mean, like you mentioned,
Nubia, Nubia, oh, was such atrigger, I must have taken 1000
(58:17):
photographs there. And as I saidearlier, I'll carry on doing
with it, and I'll carry beinginspired by it. But a subject
may not necessarily interest meor a color or something. So yes,
I can listen to what others aresaying. But I have to digest it,
take it in, think about it,reflect and then come to a point
(58:42):
where I say, Okay, this is whatI want to do. And this is how I
feel about it. And this isbecause if it doesn't inspire
me, I'm not going to be creatinggood art. It as we said before,
it's thinking and feeling if Idon't feel it, I'm not gonna do
it. The people I was painting inthe last three years, were all
people I saw in the streetswhere something touched me. And
(59:06):
I felt them. So I took aphotograph of them, and then I
worked on it. And it's sointeresting. And they were all
mostly in Egypt. But sointerestingly, that a lot of my
friends and family startedtaking photographs of people and
said, Oh, I think you will likethat. They're right. It's the
kind of the right subject but Isaid, but I didn't take the
(59:27):
picture myself. I didn't feelthem. And so I can't beat it.
Not that it's a bad one. On thecontrary, it's a beautiful one.
National Geographic has got somewonderful photographs that I
would love to paint. But it hasto be true to me. I should have
seen the person and felt him orher to be able to paint him or
her. Yeah, so it's theauthenticity of your own
(59:50):
experience. Yeah. Sounbelievably, our hour has gone
by, well, I know. It would be soeasy to just Keep talking. But
at the beginning of theinterview, I asked if we could
go back to that point when youwere making that decision to
(01:00:10):
leave your shell career andpursue your fine art life. If
you were to talk to Hala now,let's say she was in her shell
office, and it may be on a daythat even though she had made
that decision, she was maybefeeling doubtful. What would you
(01:00:32):
say?
Go for it. Go for it. I wouldsay you should have gone for it
earlier. But then there's alwaysthe right time. And this was the
right time for me. So now Inever looked back. I never
regretted it on the country. Iftime goes back, I may have
(01:00:55):
chosen an earlier time. But theneverything happened at the right
time.
Don't let fear and doubt stopyou. Never, never. Hala, it's
been really, really lovely totalk to you. Thank you so much,
again, for making this timebecause I know you've been so
busy in Egypt with your fabulousexhibition.
(01:01:16):
Pleasure and I really enjoyedit. You took me through a
journey inside me, and I reallyenjoyed that. Thank you very
much. I'm really pleased andI'll see you soon. You soon.
Thank you, Hala. Thank you. Bye.
Bye.
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