September 21, 2024 • 66 mins
What's it like to be the least likely artists to have two hit, number one albums on Decca Records, one of the world's most iconic labels? Decca Classics, discovered and pursued singing nuns, the Poor Clares of Arundel in West Sussex, to record with them. The debut album, 'Light for the World,' sold out of cds within 24 hours, had 60 million streams, topped the Amazon and Apple music charts internationally and topped the UK specialist chart for 19 weeks. The second album, 'My Peace I Give You,' is out now, led by popular demand. Sister Gabriel shares their experience; doubts, resistance, concerns, negotiating terms and how this all became a beautiful experience with world wide impact.
The Poor Clares have recorded an infusion of Latin hymns and medieval texts which have had a powerful, healing impact across the world, touching the lives of people, whether they are religious or not. A common response has been, “I don't believe in God, but there is something about your music that takes me somewhere that I had never experienced before.” From the debut album, they were inundated with letters of thanks, often speaking of healing and calm, religious or not.
The Poor Clares live a contemplative, cloistered life and rarely go out but the convent and their guest house are regularly populated with visitors from all walks of life. Their multiple responsibilities revolve around a disciplined structure of praying, seven times a day and staying in touch with World News. We dispel myths of a contemplative life being simply passive. We talk about courage, personal choices, recording albums, being of service but not self-serving and balancing novelty with health curiosity. “The scariest thing to do is to submit yourself to something other than oneself.” Sister Gabriel.
Before choosing a consecrated life, Sister Gabriel, had completed a degree in auto and mechanical engineering and worked in Czechoslovakia for a year helping to improve British safety standards in machinery. Art had been a significant part of her family life in the North East, including her admiration for Tisch, a significant social documentary photographer from Newcastle, and the Pittman painters northern miners that painted a unique historical record of their lives and mined literally through class barriers to do so.
As the sisters say themselves, "You don't have to be religious to enjoy their music." Published on September 21st, 2024, International Day of Peace, the episode includes the title track, "My Peace I Give You." The music is courtesy of Decca Classics.
Photos © Chris O'Donovan
Discover The Poor Clares: www.poorclaresarundel.org
Discover Decca Classics: www.deccaclassics.com/en
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all audio interviews in this series.
Read only, text transcripts of every interview, news, reviews and your host, Paula Moore, are available here: www.canartsaveus.com
THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. THIS IS A FREE TO LISTEN SERIES.
PLEASE SHARE, AND HELP MAKE THE ARTS ALL OF OURS.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean, and whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? My
(00:51):
guest today has had theunexpected success of singing on
two hit albums, both reachingnumber one in the classical
music charts, released by DeccaRecords, one of the world's most
iconic labels. This is moresurprising, perhaps, because
sister Gabriel is a nundedicated to a life of prayer.
(01:11):
She lives in a religious orderthe Poor Clares, and together,
the sisters have recorded aninfusion of Latin hymns and
medieval texts which have had apowerful impact across the
world, touching the lives ofpeople, whether they are
religious or not. A commonresponse has been, "I don't
believe in God, but there issomething about your music that
(01:33):
takes me somewhere that I hadnever experienced before." The
Poor Clares live a contemplativelife dedicated to God through
prayer, they work in silence andrarely go out. But this isn't a
life lost from the world. Theconvent and their guest house
are regularly populated withvisitors from all walks of life.
(01:54):
Together, they manage thecleaning, cooking and gardening.
They grow food, help theirelderly sisters and stay in
touch with World News. All thisrevolves around a highly
structured day of prayer, seventimes a day, the sisters pray
together. But a contemplativelife isn't to be confused with
one that's passive. It's a lifethat isn't shy of challenges or
(02:18):
courage, including whether torecord these albums or not. In
fact, at first, most of thesisters were completely against
the idea. Prior to joining thePoor Clares sister Gabriel had
completed a degree in auto andmechanical engineering and
worked in Czechoslovakia for ayear helping to improve British
(02:39):
safety standards in machineryart had also been part of her
family life in the North East,including her admiration for
Tish, a significant socialdocumentary photographer from
Newcastle, and the Pittmanpainters northern miners that
painted a unique historicalrecord of their lives and mined
literally through class barriersto do so, both examples display
(03:04):
awareness and openness throughtheir work, and despite choosing
a cloistered life, the PoorClares also share those
qualities. To dispel myths aboutthe Poor Clares and to explore
the spell of art, particularlythrough the emotional outpouring
in response to two extraordinaryalbums. I'm very privileged to
(03:25):
have precious time with SisterGabriel today. Hello sister
Gabriel and a very warm welcome.Hello Paula. Thank you. Thank
you so much for that amazingintroduction it's very kind of
you. It's the least I can do,and I am more than aware of how
precious time is. So thank youagain for joining me. I was
(03:49):
interested in beginning actuallywith the idea of courage,
because I think it may surprisepeople to think courage could be
part of a contemplative life, alife that might be perceived as
gentle and quiet. And before wetalk about the challenges posed
(04:09):
by recording the albums, I'minterested in something I saw
you say in a video which wasearly on in your life, at the
Poor Clares, and I'll quote you,The scariest thing to do is to
submit yourself to somethingother than oneself." And I think
you were talking about the vowof obedience. Is it a question
(04:33):
of faith and courage? That issuch an interesting question,
Paula, because I think sometimesthere's a danger, I think, for
all of us, isn't there that,that we become the center of the
world, you know, and everythingrevolves around me, and I think
in in our contemplative life,and obviously you need, I think
(04:56):
whatever walk of life you live,you need a great deal of
courage isn't it? And I thinkin our life, you know, we we're
living a fully human life, eventhough we've given our life to
God. So we engage with all thehuman emotions. And for myself,
(05:16):
I'm living with 22 other people,I think that takes great
courage. And we all know thechallenges of living in family
life. We know the challenges ofrelationships and but I think
also it's really important, youknow, in life that I mean, one
(05:37):
of the things that's soimportant to me, and that I
really do believe obviously,it has different names. I call
it God. I'm a Christian, so mylife has, it has a certain
thrust and direction, and it'scentered in the person of Jesus.
But I think all of us somewherehave to submit to a higher
(05:58):
power. I mean, when you youknow, I'm sure you would know,
and some of your listeners knowthat when you do this 12 step
program, it's about handing yourlife over. It's about somewhere
not being completely in controlof everything, and that is a
scary thing to do. I thinkthat's really interesting,
(06:20):
because actually, in relation tothe current album, one of the
sisters commented, "I think beingconnected to something bigger
than ourselves stops us beingnarcissistic." And I thought that
was a really interestingperspective on thinking about
good mental health. Absolutely,because I think, I mean, yeah,
(06:47):
to become narcissistic, it'sall, it's all about me. It's all
centered on me. And, I mean,obviously for us somewhere, the
whole thing is about giving yourlife away. You know, I didn't
come here for myself. I camehere because I believed I was
called by God, you know. Andsomewhere, I try every day, I
(07:08):
don't always achieve it by anymeans, but I in in whatever way
I can. I try to lay down my lifefor my sisters and for and for
the world, you know, whether theworld believes that or not, I
believe it. And it's, it'sreally is about, it's about the
paradox of giving yourself awayin order to receive everything.
(07:31):
And perhaps, you know, if we dobecome narcissistic, which we
can all have a tendency to do,our world becomes smaller and
smaller, and it's all about me,and about what helps me what
doesn't help me. But I think Icertainly my life anyway. The
whole purpose of it is to enablemy heart to expand, to get
(07:56):
bigger, to grow, to to embracemore and more. And I think the
more that we do that somewhere,the happier we are. Well, that's
the case for me,
at least anyway.
Well, these are all suchimportant perspectives to have
in terms of how any of us wantto consider how good mental
(08:19):
health works for us all indifferent ways. And of course,
isn't it a lovely irony thatthere you are in the convent.
You've chosen a cloistered life.This is in Arundel, based in
West Sussex of the UK, forlisteners, and yet, you've had
these two hugely successfulalbums which have reached out
(08:42):
across the world. And so itwould be really interesting to
talk about not only the firstunexpected approach from Decca
Records, but what the challengewas in negotiating making these
albums, because were youensuring purpose was about
(09:03):
service and never self serving?Absolutely. I mean, we
initially, when we wereapproached by Decca, we thought
they've got the wrong community,because we thought, you know,
we, we, you know, we're notfantastic singers, or they need,
(09:23):
you know, the Benedictines arevery famous for their plain
chant, and we thought, crikey,you know, you know, they need to
come and visit us and hear ussing. And once they do that,
they'll decide that, you know,we're not the right community.
And that's exactly what we did.And in fact, one of you know, we
(09:44):
worked collaboratively withJames Morgan and Juliet Pochin,
who were amazing musicians andand when James approached us,
you know, through Decca, ofcourse, we said. Look, come to
the monastery incognito. Don'ttell us you're coming. And come
(10:04):
and join us for evening prayerand and then you'll hear us
sing, and you'll think, Oh,don't think so. And James said,
I will come for evening prayer,but he said, I won't come
incognito. I'm coming and andthen we can meet and have a
(10:24):
conversation. And that's whathappened. He came and, and he
said, you have the acoustics inyour chapel are beautiful, and
you have a lovely tone. And hesaid, and I think my wife could
improve your singing, and Ithink that that was really the
hook that caught the fish,because we are always wanting to
improve our singing, just not tobe professional singers, because
(10:49):
we're not, but so that we canpraise and glorify God and give
the best of ourselves and and sothat was the beginning of a
journey, really, and thebeginning of the collaboration.
And beginning, I think, of ameeting of two worlds. And there
(11:11):
was a great sense of rightnessabout it, I think. And we wanted
you see the whole point for us,really, was that it, and why we
said yes, was that it would makeus more visible and that we
could share something of ourFranciscan life. Because it was
(11:33):
very, very important for us thatour founders of St Francis and
St Clare and we wanted to putsome of the words of Francis and
Clare to music, and Deccawanted us to do some Latin plain
chant. So it was a collaborationof both, really, they respected
(11:56):
us and we respected them, and webegan to work together and the
fruit of that, as you've alreadysaid, Paula was Light for the
World. And that's, you know, thetitle in itself, that was it. It
was to be a light at a very darktime, which was as as as you're
aware during the pandemic. Yeah,absolutely. I mean, it's such an
(12:21):
amusing story in that, you know,you thought they'd mistakenly
chosen the wrong community. Butalso another sister, I think, in
a previous interview, had said,you know, most of our recent
singing practice had been adisaster, and most of us were
(12:43):
completely against it, yet thefirst album, Light for the
World, when it was releasedwithin 24 hours of being
released, Decca Records ran outof CDs, so we are talking about
a beautiful collaboration andstunning impacts. Would you like
to help the listeners understandthis within the context of the
(13:08):
pandemic? Because that obviouslywas a really significant time in
terms of suffering and the needfor healing, and the outpouring
that you had in response, inresponse to this music was
probably overwhelming. It was,it was absolutely extraordinary.
(13:29):
We you know, when we actuallydid say yes, we thought that
this album would be a legacy forus, for our benefactors, for the
people who support us, and forour family and friends, that was
it. That's what we thought wouldhappen, and that maybe we'd sell
a few 100 or albums. And as yousay, it just it went worldwide.
(13:53):
And I think somewhere for us, itwas so wonderful, not because we
reached number one on theclassical charts, or that we,
you know, however many millionsof downloads there were, it was
because we believed and and welearned from the public that
(14:14):
somewhere in such a difficulttime, we touched people. And we
believe that we touched thembecause we were sharing
something of ourselves throughour music, which we were, and
the response from the public wasphenomenal, and and I remember,
(14:35):
actually the very firstinterview that I did to share
the album, and this person whohad listened to it said, you
know that album is going to goto Number One, she said,
What would happen if your albumwent to number one? And I
laughed, because we neverthought for a minute that that
(14:57):
would happen. But something ofthe essence of our lives touched
people. And I think because somany people during covid, you
know, people were alone, theywere isolated, they were at
home. They couldn't go out,there was this sense of
claustrophobia. Many, you know,lots of people, you know, they
(15:21):
had their kids at home. Peoplewere on top of each other, and I
think sometimes, for somepeople, it was the first time
that they'd had to cope justwith themselves in this place of
desolation. And there was no,you know, we were limited,
(15:41):
weren't we? There was suchlittle human contact, and we
couldn't see our family andfriends, and it was just so
painful for so many people andand I think you see for us a
lot, a lot most a big, big partof our days spent in silence so
(16:02):
somewhere, and part of thejourney of the contemplative
life is that you have to faceyourself and face who you are.
And I think somewhere in apandemic, somewhere touched on
that for everyone, becausesuddenly it wasn't about what I
(16:22):
do or who I am, you know, whatmy work is, and it was just
about that I was at home and didn't a lot of people didn't
know what to do with themselves.Yeah, and it was such acute
vulnerability and fear andworry, and I think for the
(16:44):
listeners, in terms of how thistouched so many people, I'll
share that the debut albumachieved 60 million streams. It
topped apple and the Amazoncharts internationally, and it
stayed at the top of the UKspecialist chart for 19 weeks.
(17:06):
So, you know, this is no meanfeat, isn't it? It was, it was,
you know, an outstandingsuccess, and all credit to Decca
Records for being able tocollaborate. Because, of course,
this wasn't a straightforwardcommercial relationship, and I
was really interested in theterms that you set, and the
(17:31):
courage to stand by those terms,particularly in terms of when
and how it was recorded, ifyou'd like to share that with
the listeners. So
we, I
think what was very, veryimportant for us with this
album, when Decca approached uswas, I remember we put all the
(17:52):
obstacles in the way what wethought wouldn't work. And they
said, no, no, we can overcomethat, or we can do that. So
what, really, what was terriblyimportant for us was that
somewhere, the rhythm of ourlife would come through the
music. So we didn't want to,like, record an album in a week,
(18:13):
you know, for our life to stopand to spend 10 days recording
all of our songs. So everyWednesday, we have a singing
practice, and we're preparingour music for the week.
We've got a feast day, and so weinvited Decca to come. Every
(18:36):
Wednesday, they had to bringtheir equipment to our chapel.
We recorded the whole of thealbum in our monastery chapel
and and we did it over a periodof six months. So James and
Juliet would come on a Wednesdayand we'd learn a new piece
of music, and then the followingweek we would record it. So I
(19:00):
mean, it's a lot of hard work aswell. And so we gave over every
Wednesday afternoon. It wasbetween, I think, 2 to 4.30
and somehow,
because that was just part ofour every day, I do believe
(19:21):
that came through the music,because there was no I mean,
although we worked hard, therewas that sense of it being a
prayer somewhere that's reallyinteresting. And I'm very
interested in understanding alittle more about this idea of
the rhythm in your lives,because it's beautiful that was
(19:43):
protected, and it's obviouslycore to how the album was
recorded and how it sounded. AndI'm really interested because
other musicians I've spoken toin this series who are
outstanding in their own righttoo. For example, have survived
(20:04):
the Syrian war, for example. Andthey talked about how music was
a huge part of protecting theirhealth and staying connected,
actually, either with the peoplethey could play with or people
they couldn't reach, and theyspoke about rhythm, and they
spoke about a sense of beingtransported. I'm wondering
(20:29):
whether any of that resonateswith your experience of singing.
Well, it does, of course itdoes. But the singing I suppose
our singing is a prayer, and mylife is a life of prayer. So
it's sort of, you know, I thinksometimes we can
compartmentalize our life. Sowe've got our work, we've got
(20:54):
our family, we've got our downtime, we've got our holidays.
And I think for me, somewhere,it's the whole gamut together.
It's like one whole piece. So mylife is one of prayer and praise
in a way that I do that isthrough singing. And it's a way
(21:15):
the community does it, becauseevery day we pray the Psalms and
we sing them. So you see thealbum somewhere was just a
continuation of that. Somewhere,it's just part of a big hole.
And somewhere, the fact what wasnew and what was different was
(21:35):
that we really brought when,when the world locked down and
couldn't go out thiscontemplative monastery that
lives in one place, opened upand went out to the world
because there was a need. It'ssuch a paradox. It's amazing.
Yeah, it's beautiful. Theparadoxes are beautiful, the
(21:57):
same as when you said earlier,you you know, you give yourself
away in order to haveeverything. And it really does
seem, you know, incrediblypowerful, not in terms of just
how it deepens, perhaps your ownprayer, your own sense of
spirituality, but also thehealing impact, and that seems
(22:21):
to have really dominatedbeautifully, the response that
you had, and perhaps you couldshare more about that. And I'm
particularly aware of one letterthat had a profound impact on
you. Yes, well, you see, becauseof we, we all saw this promised
(22:44):
as a community that we never didit for ourselves. Saw any money
that we made, we gave away tocharity, and then any letters
that we received were promisedthat we would answer them all,
or emails or requests. And doyou know we received so, so, so,
(23:07):
so many. And then I remember,and we've kept them, we've kept
them all, and as a legacy ofwhat happened, because it's so
important to us. What a goodidea. And I remember there was
one letter in particular thatstruck me. Well, there were two,
actually. The first one was thatthere was a couple, the husband
(23:32):
and wife, and the husband wrote,and he his, he said that his
wife had Alzheimer's anddementia and and and it was
become, it was, I think it waseven more exacerbated during the
lockdown, but she was becomingmore and more unwell and was
becoming more a bit violent. Andhe wrote to us, and he just
(23:56):
said, I want to thank you foryour album, because every time I
put it on, it just calm, said,and I was like, Oh, my word. It
made me cry. I said, Gosh, Iwould have done the album for
that one letter.
Yeah, absolutely.
And also, there was another one.And, you know, I think when
people who were dying of covidand were in hospital, and as you
(24:20):
know, in the beginning, youknow, family couldn't go in, and
people were on their own. But Iremember another letter came and
it just said, you know, the lastthing that my my husband
listened to him was your musicbefore he died.
And also, there was another onewhere
(24:41):
a young mother wrote and said,You know, when I want
to put, before my baby goes tobed you know, I put your music
on when we're in the bath, andthen it's a transition to night
or to sleep. I was like, wow.Like that's life and death, the
(25:02):
beginning and the end. It's justamazing. Yeah, it's it's really
interesting, and increasinglysuch important research is
happening in terms ofunderstanding the positive,
positive effects of the arts onthe brain, and particularly
music and music in terms ofhealing or calming, an
(25:24):
intervention, perhaps intochronic anxiety, negative
thinking. And it's significant,isn't it that people have wanted
to go out of their way to say,I'm not religious. I don't, I
don't believe in God, but Iwant, I want you to know this
(25:45):
has had a huge impact on mylife, or someone's life, or in
terms of healing. And would yousay that it's really amplified
to all of you, that there isperhaps a far greater role for
music and singing in all of ourlives, and perhaps relationships
(26:09):
that may be through religiousspaces, regardless of your
faith, could be very, veryhelpful. Well,
the thing is, somewhere Paula,we're
meeting each other in our commonhumanity, aren't we? Yeah, I
mean, and that that's where wemeet. That's why I meet people,
whether they're of faith or not,you're meeting a person in front
(26:32):
of you, and that's sacred forme, because each person is. I'm
sacred, so are you. And youknow, even in this conversation,
it's a meeting of hearts andminds, and we're meeting each
other at this moment, in aunique moment, and both of us
are having the courage to sharethat with a wider audience. So,
(26:55):
I mean, this is what it's about,isn't it? I mean, I can, I
absolutely believe completelythat beauty and the arts can
transform one's life. I reallybelieve that. But this isn't
new. Okay, they're doingresearch in health and all that,
(27:17):
but this, this isn't new. Thisis from the beginning, the
beginning of our humancondition. When you look, look
at hieroglyphics, look at andthat Dostoevsky said,
Beauty will save the world. It'snot power, it's not brains, it's
(27:40):
not being clever. There'ssomething beyond that. Yeah,
it's so important, isn't it,because that's such an important
point you've made, that thisisn't new, in fact, but maybe
what's new is we areincreasingly understanding the
importance of pushing away thebarriers, the structural
(28:02):
barriers that are actuallyblocking our access to beauty or
the arts as a pathway to beautyor to healing or to exchange,
cultural exchange that's soimportant to peacekeeping.
Right. Absolutely,yeah, yeah, that's why it's so
important, isn't it that. Imean, I think it's how you use
(28:26):
it, isn't it how you gain accessto these things? But if you if
you really desire it in London,I mean, even within a monastery,
so you know, I don't go toart galleries, I don't go to
music festivals anywhere, but Ifind a way to bring that into my
life, because it's important.Absolutely. And the other thing
(28:51):
that I understand you like tobring into your life, along with
your sisters, is Bob Marley.Well,
we do because we've
got a very eclectic musical,what
would you say?
Appetite? Yeah.
Appetite, that's a good word youknow, when you've got 22 people,
(29:13):
there's a very eclectic mix ofmusic in that. But the what, the
thing that came up about BobMarley was that we we also do a
thing called circle dancing.See, it's about expressing
yourself. So it's a way todance, and it's certain steps,
(29:33):
and you all do it together, andwe do that in our liturgy, but
to one of the dances we use, wesing it, we dance it to one of
Bob Marley's songs. I think isit Three Little Birds that's a
favorite. I think it is, yes,yeah. So it's a lovely example,
(29:54):
isn't it, of openness andexchange willingness to to be
open to all sorts of music orarts and culture in general, and
it might be surprising, becauseI imagine people might assume
that it's only ever about Holymusic and that your world isn't
(30:23):
actually more open than that. Ithink that's one of the things
that's been a great thing withthe album, is to have been able
to have the opportunity to sayto people through the media, is
that, you know, we're justordinary human beings, human
(30:44):
women who don't who you know,been called by God in a
particular way of life. But um,in our common we can meet each
other in our common humanity.And actually, you know, just
because I'm a nun doesn't meanthat I don't have, I
(31:04):
don't have the full gamut ofemotions and feelings like
everyone else. What is holiness?You see? What is holiness?
Holiness somewhere is to knowwho I am and then have it fully
in my humanity. Well, we allwant to do that? Yeah,
absolutely. And it's it'sinteresting, because obviously,
(31:28):
along came the second album, MyPeace I Give You, which also
went straight to the top of theclassical music charts. I'm
interested in how that may have,in fact, been a new challenge.
Was it a new discussion thatthat required courage and also
(31:51):
how you wanted to protectyourselves from becoming a
novelty for the wrong reasons?That's very that's an interesting
question. I think it alwaystakes courage, doesn't it, to
put yourself out there, or toput your music out there, or to
(32:13):
put whatever's inside of you outthere, because it's open to
scrutiny. So you've got, Ithink, somewhere to be at peace
with who you are and what you'resharing. We wanted when we were
invited to make a second album.We did it because of the the
(32:35):
response that we received frompeople, and they were asking us,
when you will you make moremusic, when will you make another
album, and we wanted somewherethere's a beautiful, beautiful
piece of writing that Franciswrote, called the Canticle of
Creation, and that's at thecenter of the second album. But
(32:58):
what's key to that is Paula withwhat we're sharing today is it's
about being in relationship. Andthat's what St Francis and St
Clare were absolutely thinking aboutin the 12th century. Is it's to
be a brother or a sister toeverything and and in the second
album, because St Francis saysabout brother, son and Sister
(33:22):
Moon, Mother Earth, SisterWater. And I think somewhere,
you see now we, we've become,we've dominated the planet.
We're sort of ruining itsomewhere, and we are not in a
right relationship with it. Ithink, or we need to re find it.
I think we've lost it a bit. Sothis whole second album is about
(33:46):
relationships, really, and sothat's why we wanted to focus on
that and also the environment,because it's crucial if we don't
learn how to live in harmonywith with everything you know
we're going to destroy you somuch. Yeah, absolutely. And for
(34:10):
listeners who may not befamiliar, the patron saint of
ecology and of animals is, ofcourse, St Francis, and as you
just touched on some of thosetracks and songs are called
Sister Moon and Stars, SisterWater, Brother Wind, Brother Sun
and, of course, Mother Earth. Sothis is, this is a beautiful
(34:33):
emphasis, isn't it aboutreminding us of the importance
of our relationship with thenatural world.
Absolutely, because
we, we somewhere exploited it.It's
like, it's like, sometimesthere's a danger, isn't
there, that everything is therefor all use. Because we, we
(34:54):
think that as a human being,we're like, at the top of
everything, you know, the humanrace is, like, at the top of
it, you know, it's not, and,and, yeah, you know, we there's
a beautiful story with StFrancis and how he, there was a
wolf, and this wolf wasterrorizing this little town in
(35:17):
Italy, and Francis enters into arelationship with this wolf and
and I think we, we forget, weforget that, as well as a woman
I, you know, I am a sister toeverything, and that actually,
(35:38):
the Earth feeds me. It nourishesme. It gives me what I need. But
it's not to exploit it. It's toto be in a right relationship
with it. Because I think ifwe're in a right relationship
with each other as human beingsand with our environment,
there's a greater sense of peaceand harmony and well being.
(36:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'dbe interested to learn a little
more about St Clare, because Iunderstand St Clare is
understood as a visionary, andshe was very young, wasn't she,
I think, only 16 years of agewhen she cultivated her own
(36:22):
connection in relationship withSt Francis. I'm interested in
the significance of St Clare toyou too, and also her status as
the first woman to write a rulefor other women.
She was the first woman in thehistory of the
church to write her own rule.You see, because somewhere the
(36:45):
church was, you know, the menwere telling the women, you
know, it was very patriarchalstructure as society was, you
see, I think what we always haveto remember is to put everything
in its historical context. So atthat time, so we're looking at
the 1200s it was unknown,really. And she was the first
(37:10):
woman to write a form of lifefor women. So she was amazing.
So she she was inspired by SaintFrancis and but she she was from
an aristocratic family. But thewhole thrust you see at that
time in Italy, in Umbria, andthere were these warring
(37:34):
factions, it's at the time ofthe Crusades. So there's loads
of violence. There's lots ofunrest, and here's Francis and
Clare coming to be men andwomen of peace, and to live in a
completely different way, to sayto live a simple life, to be
(37:56):
poor and to offer another way ofbeing. And Clare has, we don't
have a lot of her writings leftto us, but she wrote four
beautiful, absolutely beautifulletters that we have. And she
was writing to another woman whowas from a very was from a royal
(38:19):
family. And this woman wanted toleave everything and give her
life to God, and Clare
encouraged her to
do it, beautiful, and as in thefirst album, some of Clare's
words are there. You know? Itwas like gaze, consider,
(38:40):
contemplate, as you desire toimitate. And so although it's
about stopping and thinking andbeing and entering into oneself
and being centered, it doesn'tstop there. You have to go out
and you have to go out to theother so when she says, imitate
(39:02):
for us, of course she's speakingabout Jesus, but it's about
incarnating it, making it real,and giving away in some way,
giving your time and giving yourgifts, giving your material
things
in order to
(39:23):
be fully human, in order toreach, what she would say, the
heights of of contemplation, shewas very, very grounded. So
interesting and contemplation,the emphasis on contemplation
and meditation that very muchfeeds into mindfulness, which we
(39:47):
all hear a lot more about today.It's an idea that's much more in
the mainstream, and mindfulnessreflects philosophical thoughts
from different spiritualleaders, but very much, much in
harmony with a lot of thingsyou've been saying about how we
can learn to calm the mind, howwe can learn to create space
(40:10):
around our thoughts, but also tobe open to new thoughts and to
other thoughts.
Absolutely. I
mean, I think it's a discipline,isn't it? So for me, I mean, we
have an hour of contemplativeprayer every morning, in the
early morning, it's, it's adiscipline. It's like
everything, and you've got to,like, you know, as somebody said
(40:36):
to me, it's like going to thegym, you know, we all want to be
slim and beautiful, but we don'twant to put the hard work in.
And I think somewhere thespiritual life is the same. We
we've got have that disciplineof sitting there in silence, in
contemplation, go through theboredom, go through the whatever
(40:58):
it is, go through the darkness,and in order to enter into that,
that that place of oneness andcommunion, and it's hard work as
well. Yeah, it is literallyexercise, isn't it? It is. I'm
really interested in returningto a question you raised earlier
(41:20):
about what what is holy? What isholiness? And this is actually
in relation to your secondalbum, My Peace I Give You,
which was recorded, well,actually, I should say, mixed at
Abbey Road, the very, veryfamous Abbey Road Studios, which
the Beatles probably put oneverybody's map, but actually
(41:45):
there are so many famous namesthat have been there. And
actually Juliet Pochin, whohelped produce your albums, who
has a remarkable career of herown, she also created an album
with the voice of EllaFitzgerald, and it was through
(42:08):
the through the stunningstate of the art studio of Abbey
Road, and lifting her voice frommono to a new album, you know,
with new composed music behindher voice, and it sounds
incredible. It's absolutelyastonishing. And it and it also
(42:29):
drew my attention to anotherband, the Hollies a successful
60s band that people may or maynot have heard of, but they were
often at Abbey Road recordingalongside the Beatles, and I saw
in one of their interviews thatthey compared going to Abbey
Road Studios for the first timeas like entering a cathedral. It
(42:53):
felt holy because it was sorevered. And that came back to
my mind when you raised thequestion, what is holy? Is it
about, is it about reverence? Isit about sacred spaces?
Well, it is, yeah,but I think that's all relative
to to the person, isn't it? And,but I think the the holiness. So
(43:19):
we have sacred places, and wehave beautiful cathedrals, and
we have but, but as just thatexample that you said about that
musician, he found that place tobe holy or sacred for him, and
you know, it's a reflection ofwhere we are always, I think,
(43:41):
isn't it of who we are, where weare? Yeah. I mean, I love to
pray in in our chapel. I love topray in the garden, in nature.
So sometimes Paula and I thinkit's, you know, with what eyes
are we looking at something?What do we see? Because
somewhere it's a reflection ofourselves and what's inside of
(44:04):
us. And what was your experiencelistening back to the recordings
once everything was mixed atAbbey Road, because, of course,
you visited the studios.
What was that impact
like to to hear state of the artrecording of your singing, of
(44:25):
your singing. Well, it wasinteresting because I think it
was either five or six of uswent, and then we wouldn't
normally do that. You see, wewouldn't be leaving a monastery,
our monastery, to go and dothat. But we thought it would be
a wonderful experience tolisten, as you've just said, to
(44:47):
our music, and we were invitedby Decca Records to go, and I
have to say it was the mostextraordinary experience. So we
went up into a very smallstudio. Abbey Road,
they have these speakers. It'scalled the surround system, so
the the speakers are allaround you and and we just
(45:12):
listened to the album from thebeginning to the end. It was
just absolutely amazing. It waswonderful. And an opportunity
never to be forgotten, and andalso you see, so you can
have an amazing
aha moment, whatever you callit, but,
(45:34):
but we also had a lot of fun,you know. And we, and perhaps
some of your listeners mightknow, but some of us, I said,
we have to cross that Abbey Roadand do the Beatles walk. And we
did. So, you know, the fullyhuman and the fully divine. I
think it's bringing the whole,our wholeness as human beings
(45:56):
together as one. Yeah, it'sfantastic. I absolutely love the
photo of you and sisterscrossing the very, very famous
Abbey Road, zerbra crossing.And it's interesting because we
touched on the idea of noveltyearlier, because there can be a
(46:16):
fine balancing act of nuns whosing, not being made too much of
a novelty. But at the same time,I find novelty can be a very
healthy door opener, that itencourages healthy curiosity.
(46:38):
Yes, I think, I think
that's absolutely true, and I
think that's exactly what'shappened with us. There is a
healthy I think there is ahealthy curiosity now, and
that's good, because it's agreat sadness to me that nuns
(46:58):
somewhere might just become anovelty, because we're not, do
you know what I mean? We're justordinary human beings who are
living a particular way of life.And let's hope that these albums
dispel some myths. I mean,perhaps we are seen as a
novelty, but that, for meyourself, because a novelty
(47:21):
somewhere is something outsideof you. It's something that's a
bit different, or it's somethingthat's so far removed from your
experience. So what I would sayis, if you, if anybody thinks of
nuns as novelties, you need toengage with one, because then
you realize that they're justthe same as everybody else.
Yeah, and can have verysurprising and helpful
(47:45):
conversations. You can sharehumor, you can share completely
new ideas. But it's important, Ithink, that we maintain a sense
of healthy curiosity when wewant to discover more about
things, even if it seems like anovelty at first. Yeah, I think
(48:08):
you're right. But I think that,as you've said previously, that
takes great courage, doesn't it?Because we've got to step out in
some way, expose ourselves.Yeah, and I think this came up
outside of your albums. I thinkthis was a particularly good
example. In the past, the PoorClares agreed to make a
(48:32):
television series which wascalled The Convent, and for the
listeners The Convent, which wasshown on the BBC, it followed
four women who were reallyembarking on a unique journey.
They lived with the Poor Claresfor 40 days and for 40 nights,
(48:52):
perhaps Sister Gabriel, we couldthink of that as a social
experiment. It was exploring howthe traditional values of the
Poor Clares could potentiallyhelp women tackle contemporary
problems, for example. But Iimagine that took courage from
all of you who were involved. Ithink it absolutely did. So,
(49:18):
yeah, you're right. I mean, Ithink the the idea behind it was
to say, actually, that there'ssomething that the way that we
live our life has something veryimportant to say to the way that
we live in society, for want ofa better word. I mean, I live in
(49:40):
society, but I live apart fromit, and it was a sort of meeting
of two worlds. I think thedifference is that we were
called to this way of life,and they weren't, but to meet
each other in our commonhumanity. But they did. They
lived with us for. 40 days and40 nights, and sometimes it was
(50:02):
hard because sometimes the fitdidn't go well. And sometimes
it's hard, isn't it, when you'vegot to just knuckle down and get
on with things when you don'twant to do it. We've all had
that experience. And sometimesit was like that for them and
for us too, you know, sometimeswe've just had to knuckle down
(50:24):
and get on with it as well. Butit was, I think, wonderful to
see how the rhythm of those daysreally did touch them in a very
deep place. Because when theyleft here, you know, they went
and having had a really aunique experience, and I think
about themselves in a new way,discovered things about
(50:47):
themselves that this lifetouched upon that might not have
been touched upon otherwise.Yeah, that's so interesting. And
would you say that is partly theimpact of being in a monastic
setting or a convent setting.And would you say it also had
everything to do with structure,because you just referred to
(51:12):
rhythm, again, that reallyimportant sense of rhythm in
terms of how you live yourlives. Would you say this is
where the impact lay for thesewomen, and was it a door opener
for how they wanted to eithercultivate their own courage or
(51:34):
their own thinking about thechanges they felt they needed to
make in their own lives? Yeah, Idon't know Paula. I can't speak
for them. I wouldn't like tospeak for them. So I couldn't
answer that, but I would say, Ithink, do you know what? Just
when you asked that question,what came to mind for me was I
(51:54):
was just thinking, Saint Clarehas this thing, and she calls it
the grace of work, right? Shecalls it the grace of work. So
speaking about rhythm, I thinkwhat you see, I think it's
about, sometimes, when we thinkabout we're going to work,
right? So I know there are manypeople that hate their jobs, but
(52:18):
they go to work to pay themortgage and have enough money,
you know, to go on holiday. Andthere's nothing wrong with that
at all. But there's something, Imean, I suppose that's why I'm
in an incredibly privilegedposition, that my life and work
create a harmony and a peace, Ithink. And I'm very blessed. But
(52:39):
there's something I think aboutthe human condition, needing a
rhythm and needing that's whyit's so hard to be unemployed,
and because we've got to createsomething, because we want
purpose and meaning in our life.Yeah, absolutely and and rhythm
(53:04):
is really a way of perhapsorganizing your life and
organizing it in a way that willfeel more rewarding, that you
actually understand how you wantto spend your time. Yeah,
it's, you know, it's value,isn't it?
(53:26):
What do we where do we put ourvalue? Where do we place our
value, isn't it, you know what Imean, which is different for
everybody? Yeah, and it makes mewonder, actually, from from your
point of view, I think youentered the Poor Clares at age
23 and so I think, are weabout 30 years later, for
(53:52):
example. So in terms of you knowthe rhythm of your life now, and
how you reflect back on yourformer and younger life, you
know, you've said, you know, youwere a completely different
person, of course. Howdo you reflect on those
differences now? Oh, gosh,that's a massive question.
(54:18):
Should we do a second episode?Wow, I
think episode two, yeah, and howdo I reflect? And, you know, I'm
full of gratitude and I'm fullof Thanksgiving. I think life
has been very challenging, butit's been full of adventure and
possibility, and I'm so gratefulfor the life that I have,
(54:43):
because I think all the time I'mdiscovering more and more who I
am. Yeah, and it was sointeresting to discover you know
that after your degree, you alsowent on to live and work in
Czechoslovakia for a year. Sovery distinctly
different lives. What
(55:03):
do you think
may have been calling you to tochange your life? Because it's a
significant change, isn't it,and also moving away from your
own family, for example, do youknow it's such a mystery? Paula,
not that I want to make youknow, make it some esoteric
(55:25):
thing, but it is a mystery, youknow, because somewhere deep
within me there was arestlessness. That's the only
thing I can say for somethingmore. I mean, one could see, why
does anyone end up in the careerthat they choose. You know that
they choose. Why is it that wefall in love with a particular
(55:46):
person? It's it's mysterioussomewhere, and you can't put
your finger on it. And for me,there was a restlessness within
me that was something callingme, something much, much bigger
than myself and I just thought,I've got to follow this. I've
got to
and, and, you know, no regrets.
(56:09):
It's not always been easy, but,and, but no regrets. And it's so
interesting in how anyone whomakes significant changes in
their lives, are able to find away of tolerating the unknown,
if you like, to to be curiousenough to pursue it and
(56:30):
courageous enough to do it. Andyeah, so would you say that
that's kind of an ongoingcultivation. You know,
definitely, definitely, it's anongoing because life is changing
all the time, isn't it, andwe're engaging with ourselves
(56:51):
all the time, and we're engagingwith new things all the time.
I'm not a stationary person. Youknow, my feelings and emotions
and my human life, and thepeople who come into my life or
help are growing all the time.It's whether I can keep saying
yes to what comes that's thething. Take the risk. Be curious
(57:16):
enough
and to
to not be afraid, to not beafraid to take the risk. Yeah,
knowing that, actually, I dobelieve this, it's not to be
negative. But I think there'sone little aspect that I haven't
shared today, is that also it'sa Christian perspective, and
(57:38):
it's mine, but Jesus did say,said, take up your cross and
follow me. So I think sometimessociety in the world can say,
or, you know, sort of happyromantic films, that life is
wonderful and and it's alwayslovely. And actually, we all
know that it's not, and thatlife can be very tough.
(58:00):
Yeah. And I think we mustn't,you know, forget that actually,
and all of us somewhere as it'staking up my cross and following
the Lord, but for everyone, Ithink we all have to do that in
our own way. Yeah, yeah, because
it shapes us, and it forms
us and it grows us as a person,doesn't it? If you think in your
(58:24):
if you know, if your listenersthink in their own life about
their own sufferings and howthat shaped one's personhood?
Yeah, it's part of ourevolution. Yeah,
absolutely.
So as time, I'm afraid alwaysgoes far too fast. I'd like to
(58:46):
move towards a couple of thingsto finish on one being a
question I ask everybody, justto explore different responses,
I suspect you'll have adifferent answer to the
question, Can art save us? Oh,yes, it can,
absolutely, it can.
Can art save us? What is art?What is it?
(59:11):
How do we define it?
Do you see it as, do yousee it as a pathway? A pathway,
because it can seem like asimplistic question, Can art
save us? But that's todeliberately prompt discussion.
But it's about beauty. It'sabout touching the scent when I
(59:32):
when I look at a piece of art,or I listen to a piece of music,
and it moves me, or ittransforms me, or it takes me to
another place. It's abouttouching the divine with inside
of me, so that for me, it'stouching God. So can art save me?
Absolutely, of course it can.
(59:53):
It does. It saves me every day.
And it was really interestingwhen I had the opportunity.
Opportunity to speak to youprior to this interview that you
referenced artists like thePittman painters, but also the
social documentary photographerTish, who, again for the
(01:00:15):
listeners, did outstanding work,particularly in the North East
of England, very much driven bysocial justice and sadly
documented acute poverty. Andactually, Sister Gabriel this,
you know, knowing that your youknow your roots are from the
north east, isn't it sad to readthat a report published in
(01:00:37):
February of this year, it's theNorth East Child Poverty
Commission, more than a third ofchildren in the North East are
living in poverty. Exactly whatTish was documenting back in the
70s. Shocking. It's absolutelyshocking. It's just dreadful.
(01:00:59):
Yeah, I can't I mean, what
can I say to that? Education isthe way out.
I think so, education the arts.And this was around you as a
young person growing up at home,some exposure to the arts was
this part of your family life?Absolutely.
(01:01:22):
I
mean, what my my next so I'm oneof four girls, but my next
sister up was an actor for many,many years, and worked in
community theater and thenworked in television, but and so
as a child, you know, I was in adrama group, it just broadens
(01:01:47):
your perspective and, you know,makes you think of possibility.
And so I've always been atheater goer, and I've always
been a person who's been movedby music and poetry and
literature. Yeah, beautiful.Well, um, sadly, our our time is
(01:02:10):
up, and just before sayingfarewell, I will play out with a
beautiful song from the currentalbum. It's the title track My
Peace I Give You, and I'd reallylike to encourage listeners to
take the time just to sit, restyour eyes and experience the
(01:02:31):
harmony and sincerity of thePoor Clares singing on this
particular track from thecurrent album. The choice also
marks International Peace Day,which is when this season is
first published, September the21st. You'll also see links to
the album, The Poor Clares ontheir episode page, so that you
(01:02:54):
can discover more. I'd like tothank you all very much for
listening, especially thank you,Sister Gabriel, for taking part.
And as the nuns themselves say,there is no need to be religious
to love their music. Paula,thank you so much for a really
interesting and enjoyableconversation. I thoroughly
(01:03:16):
enjoyed it. Thank you. I'm sopleased to hear that I've been
so looking forward to talking toyou and thank you again for all
of your Time Today.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean, and whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? My
(00:51):
guest today has had theunexpected success of singing on
two hit albums, both reachingnumber one in the classical
music charts, released by DeccaRecords, one of the world's most
iconic labels. This is moresurprising, perhaps, because
sister Gabriel is a nundedicated to a life of prayer.
(01:11):
She lives in a religious orderthe Poor Clares, and together,
the sisters have recorded aninfusion of Latin hymns and
medieval texts which have had apowerful impact across the
world, touching the lives ofpeople, whether they are
religious or not. A commonresponse has been, "I don't
believe in God, but there issomething about your music that
(01:33):
takes me somewhere that I hadnever experienced before." The
Poor Clares live a contemplativelife dedicated to God through
prayer, they work in silence andrarely go out. But this isn't a
life lost from the world. Theconvent and their guest house
are regularly populated withvisitors from all walks of life.
(01:54):
Together, they manage thecleaning, cooking and gardening.
They grow food, help theirelderly sisters and stay in
touch with World News. All thisrevolves around a highly
structured day of prayer, seventimes a day, the sisters pray
together. But a contemplativelife isn't to be confused with
one that's passive. It's a lifethat isn't shy of challenges or
(02:18):
courage, including whether torecord these albums or not. In
fact, at first, most of thesisters were completely against
the idea. Prior to joining thePoor Clares sister Gabriel had
completed a degree in auto andmechanical engineering and
worked in Czechoslovakia for ayear helping to improve British
(02:39):
safety standards in machineryart had also been part of her
family life in the North East,including her admiration for
Tish, a significant socialdocumentary photographer from
Newcastle, and the Pittmanpainters northern miners that
painted a unique historicalrecord of their lives and mined
literally through class barriersto do so, both examples display
(03:04):
awareness and openness throughtheir work, and despite choosing
a cloistered life, the PoorClares also share those
qualities. To dispel myths aboutthe Poor Clares and to explore
the spell of art, particularlythrough the emotional outpouring
in response to two extraordinaryalbums. I'm very privileged to
(03:25):
have precious time with SisterGabriel today. Hello sister
Gabriel and a very warm welcome.Hello Paula. Thank you. Thank
you so much for that amazingintroduction it's very kind of
you. It's the least I can do,and I am more than aware of how
precious time is. So thank youagain for joining me. I was
(03:49):
interested in beginning actuallywith the idea of courage,
because I think it may surprisepeople to think courage could be
part of a contemplative life, alife that might be perceived as
gentle and quiet. And before wetalk about the challenges posed
(04:09):
by recording the albums, I'minterested in something I saw
you say in a video which wasearly on in your life, at the
Poor Clares, and I'll quote you,The scariest thing to do is to
submit yourself to somethingother than oneself." And I think
you were talking about the vowof obedience. Is it a question
(04:33):
of faith and courage? That issuch an interesting question,
Paula, because I think sometimesthere's a danger, I think, for
all of us, isn't there that,that we become the center of the
world, you know, and everythingrevolves around me, and I think
in in our contemplative life,and obviously you need, I think
(04:56):
whatever walk of life you live,you need a great deal of
courage isn't it? And I thinkin our life, you know, we we're
living a fully human life, eventhough we've given our life to
God. So we engage with all thehuman emotions. And for myself,
(05:16):
I'm living with 22 other people,I think that takes great
courage. And we all know thechallenges of living in family
life. We know the challenges ofrelationships and but I think
also it's really important, youknow, in life that I mean, one
(05:37):
of the things that's soimportant to me, and that I
really do believe obviously,it has different names. I call
it God. I'm a Christian, so mylife has, it has a certain
thrust and direction, and it'scentered in the person of Jesus.
But I think all of us somewherehave to submit to a higher
(05:58):
power. I mean, when you youknow, I'm sure you would know,
and some of your listeners knowthat when you do this 12 step
program, it's about handing yourlife over. It's about somewhere
not being completely in controlof everything, and that is a
scary thing to do. I thinkthat's really interesting,
(06:20):
because actually, in relation tothe current album, one of the
sisters commented, "I think beingconnected to something bigger
than ourselves stops us beingnarcissistic." And I thought that
was a really interestingperspective on thinking about
good mental health. Absolutely,because I think, I mean, yeah,
(06:47):
to become narcissistic, it'sall, it's all about me. It's all
centered on me. And, I mean,obviously for us somewhere, the
whole thing is about giving yourlife away. You know, I didn't
come here for myself. I camehere because I believed I was
called by God, you know. Andsomewhere, I try every day, I
(07:08):
don't always achieve it by anymeans, but I in in whatever way
I can. I try to lay down my lifefor my sisters and for and for
the world, you know, whether theworld believes that or not, I
believe it. And it's, it'sreally is about, it's about the
paradox of giving yourself awayin order to receive everything.
(07:31):
And perhaps, you know, if we dobecome narcissistic, which we
can all have a tendency to do,our world becomes smaller and
smaller, and it's all about me,and about what helps me what
doesn't help me. But I think Icertainly my life anyway. The
whole purpose of it is to enablemy heart to expand, to get
(07:56):
bigger, to grow, to to embracemore and more. And I think the
more that we do that somewhere,the happier we are. Well, that's
the case for me,
at least anyway.
Well, these are all suchimportant perspectives to have
in terms of how any of us wantto consider how good mental
(08:19):
health works for us all indifferent ways. And of course,
isn't it a lovely irony thatthere you are in the convent.
You've chosen a cloistered life.This is in Arundel, based in
West Sussex of the UK, forlisteners, and yet, you've had
these two hugely successfulalbums which have reached out
(08:42):
across the world. And so itwould be really interesting to
talk about not only the firstunexpected approach from Decca
Records, but what the challengewas in negotiating making these
albums, because were youensuring purpose was about
(09:03):
service and never self serving?Absolutely. I mean, we
initially, when we wereapproached by Decca, we thought
they've got the wrong community,because we thought, you know,
we, we, you know, we're notfantastic singers, or they need,
(09:23):
you know, the Benedictines arevery famous for their plain
chant, and we thought, crikey,you know, you know, they need to
come and visit us and hear ussing. And once they do that,
they'll decide that, you know,we're not the right community.
And that's exactly what we did.And in fact, one of you know, we
(09:44):
worked collaboratively withJames Morgan and Juliet Pochin,
who were amazing musicians andand when James approached us,
you know, through Decca, ofcourse, we said. Look, come to
the monastery incognito. Don'ttell us you're coming. And come
(10:04):
and join us for evening prayerand and then you'll hear us
sing, and you'll think, Oh,don't think so. And James said,
I will come for evening prayer,but he said, I won't come
incognito. I'm coming and andthen we can meet and have a
(10:24):
conversation. And that's whathappened. He came and, and he
said, you have the acoustics inyour chapel are beautiful, and
you have a lovely tone. And hesaid, and I think my wife could
improve your singing, and Ithink that that was really the
hook that caught the fish,because we are always wanting to
improve our singing, just not tobe professional singers, because
(10:49):
we're not, but so that we canpraise and glorify God and give
the best of ourselves and and sothat was the beginning of a
journey, really, and thebeginning of the collaboration.
And beginning, I think, of ameeting of two worlds. And there
(11:11):
was a great sense of rightnessabout it, I think. And we wanted
you see the whole point for us,really, was that it, and why we
said yes, was that it would makeus more visible and that we
could share something of ourFranciscan life. Because it was
(11:33):
very, very important for us thatour founders of St Francis and
St Clare and we wanted to putsome of the words of Francis and
Clare to music, and Deccawanted us to do some Latin plain
chant. So it was a collaborationof both, really, they respected
(11:56):
us and we respected them, and webegan to work together and the
fruit of that, as you've alreadysaid, Paula was Light for the
World. And that's, you know, thetitle in itself, that was it. It
was to be a light at a very darktime, which was as as as you're
aware during the pandemic. Yeah,absolutely. I mean, it's such an
(12:21):
amusing story in that, you know,you thought they'd mistakenly
chosen the wrong community. Butalso another sister, I think, in
a previous interview, had said,you know, most of our recent
singing practice had been adisaster, and most of us were
(12:43):
completely against it, yet thefirst album, Light for the
World, when it was releasedwithin 24 hours of being
released, Decca Records ran outof CDs, so we are talking about
a beautiful collaboration andstunning impacts. Would you like
to help the listeners understandthis within the context of the
(13:08):
pandemic? Because that obviouslywas a really significant time in
terms of suffering and the needfor healing, and the outpouring
that you had in response, inresponse to this music was
probably overwhelming. It was,it was absolutely extraordinary.
(13:29):
We you know, when we actuallydid say yes, we thought that
this album would be a legacy forus, for our benefactors, for the
people who support us, and forour family and friends, that was
it. That's what we thought wouldhappen, and that maybe we'd sell
a few 100 or albums. And as yousay, it just it went worldwide.
(13:53):
And I think somewhere for us, itwas so wonderful, not because we
reached number one on theclassical charts, or that we,
you know, however many millionsof downloads there were, it was
because we believed and and welearned from the public that
(14:14):
somewhere in such a difficulttime, we touched people. And we
believe that we touched thembecause we were sharing
something of ourselves throughour music, which we were, and
the response from the public wasphenomenal, and and I remember,
(14:35):
actually the very firstinterview that I did to share
the album, and this person whohad listened to it said, you
know that album is going to goto Number One, she said,
What would happen if your albumwent to number one? And I
laughed, because we neverthought for a minute that that
(14:57):
would happen. But something ofthe essence of our lives touched
people. And I think because somany people during covid, you
know, people were alone, theywere isolated, they were at
home. They couldn't go out,there was this sense of
claustrophobia. Many, you know,lots of people, you know, they
(15:21):
had their kids at home. Peoplewere on top of each other, and I
think sometimes, for somepeople, it was the first time
that they'd had to cope justwith themselves in this place of
desolation. And there was no,you know, we were limited,
(15:41):
weren't we? There was suchlittle human contact, and we
couldn't see our family andfriends, and it was just so
painful for so many people andand I think you see for us a
lot, a lot most a big, big partof our days spent in silence so
(16:02):
somewhere, and part of thejourney of the contemplative
life is that you have to faceyourself and face who you are.
And I think somewhere in apandemic, somewhere touched on
that for everyone, becausesuddenly it wasn't about what I
(16:22):
do or who I am, you know, whatmy work is, and it was just
about that I was at home and didn't a lot of people didn't
know what to do with themselves.Yeah, and it was such acute
vulnerability and fear andworry, and I think for the
(16:44):
listeners, in terms of how thistouched so many people, I'll
share that the debut albumachieved 60 million streams. It
topped apple and the Amazoncharts internationally, and it
stayed at the top of the UKspecialist chart for 19 weeks.
(17:06):
So, you know, this is no meanfeat, isn't it? It was, it was,
you know, an outstandingsuccess, and all credit to Decca
Records for being able tocollaborate. Because, of course,
this wasn't a straightforwardcommercial relationship, and I
was really interested in theterms that you set, and the
(17:31):
courage to stand by those terms,particularly in terms of when
and how it was recorded, ifyou'd like to share that with
the listeners. So
we, I
think what was very, veryimportant for us with this
album, when Decca approached uswas, I remember we put all the
(17:52):
obstacles in the way what wethought wouldn't work. And they
said, no, no, we can overcomethat, or we can do that. So
what, really, what was terriblyimportant for us was that
somewhere, the rhythm of ourlife would come through the
music. So we didn't want to,like, record an album in a week,
(18:13):
you know, for our life to stopand to spend 10 days recording
all of our songs. So everyWednesday, we have a singing
practice, and we're preparingour music for the week.
We've got a feast day, and so weinvited Decca to come. Every
(18:36):
Wednesday, they had to bringtheir equipment to our chapel.
We recorded the whole of thealbum in our monastery chapel
and and we did it over a periodof six months. So James and
Juliet would come on a Wednesdayand we'd learn a new piece
of music, and then the followingweek we would record it. So I
(19:00):
mean, it's a lot of hard work aswell. And so we gave over every
Wednesday afternoon. It wasbetween, I think, 2 to 4.30
and somehow,
because that was just part ofour every day, I do believe
(19:21):
that came through the music,because there was no I mean,
although we worked hard, therewas that sense of it being a
prayer somewhere that's reallyinteresting. And I'm very
interested in understanding alittle more about this idea of
the rhythm in your lives,because it's beautiful that was
(19:43):
protected, and it's obviouslycore to how the album was
recorded and how it sounded. AndI'm really interested because
other musicians I've spoken toin this series who are
outstanding in their own righttoo. For example, have survived
(20:04):
the Syrian war, for example. Andthey talked about how music was
a huge part of protecting theirhealth and staying connected,
actually, either with the peoplethey could play with or people
they couldn't reach, and theyspoke about rhythm, and they
spoke about a sense of beingtransported. I'm wondering
(20:29):
whether any of that resonateswith your experience of singing.
Well, it does, of course itdoes. But the singing I suppose
our singing is a prayer, and mylife is a life of prayer. So
it's sort of, you know, I thinksometimes we can
compartmentalize our life. Sowe've got our work, we've got
(20:54):
our family, we've got our downtime, we've got our holidays.
And I think for me, somewhere,it's the whole gamut together.
It's like one whole piece. So mylife is one of prayer and praise
in a way that I do that isthrough singing. And it's a way
(21:15):
the community does it, becauseevery day we pray the Psalms and
we sing them. So you see thealbum somewhere was just a
continuation of that. Somewhere,it's just part of a big hole.
And somewhere, the fact what wasnew and what was different was
(21:35):
that we really brought when,when the world locked down and
couldn't go out thiscontemplative monastery that
lives in one place, opened upand went out to the world
because there was a need. It'ssuch a paradox. It's amazing.
Yeah, it's beautiful. Theparadoxes are beautiful, the
(21:57):
same as when you said earlier,you you know, you give yourself
away in order to haveeverything. And it really does
seem, you know, incrediblypowerful, not in terms of just
how it deepens, perhaps your ownprayer, your own sense of
spirituality, but also thehealing impact, and that seems
(22:21):
to have really dominatedbeautifully, the response that
you had, and perhaps you couldshare more about that. And I'm
particularly aware of one letterthat had a profound impact on
you. Yes, well, you see, becauseof we, we all saw this promised
(22:44):
as a community that we never didit for ourselves. Saw any money
that we made, we gave away tocharity, and then any letters
that we received were promisedthat we would answer them all,
or emails or requests. And doyou know we received so, so, so,
(23:07):
so many. And then I remember,and we've kept them, we've kept
them all, and as a legacy ofwhat happened, because it's so
important to us. What a goodidea. And I remember there was
one letter in particular thatstruck me. Well, there were two,
actually. The first one was thatthere was a couple, the husband
(23:32):
and wife, and the husband wrote,and he his, he said that his
wife had Alzheimer's anddementia and and and it was
become, it was, I think it waseven more exacerbated during the
lockdown, but she was becomingmore and more unwell and was
becoming more a bit violent. Andhe wrote to us, and he just
(23:56):
said, I want to thank you foryour album, because every time I
put it on, it just calm, said,and I was like, Oh, my word. It
made me cry. I said, Gosh, Iwould have done the album for
that one letter.
Yeah, absolutely.
And also, there was another one.And, you know, I think when
people who were dying of covidand were in hospital, and as you
(24:20):
know, in the beginning, youknow, family couldn't go in, and
people were on their own. But Iremember another letter came and
it just said, you know, the lastthing that my my husband
listened to him was your musicbefore he died.
And also, there was another onewhere
(24:41):
a young mother wrote and said,You know, when I want
to put, before my baby goes tobed you know, I put your music
on when we're in the bath, andthen it's a transition to night
or to sleep. I was like, wow.Like that's life and death, the
(25:02):
beginning and the end. It's justamazing. Yeah, it's it's really
interesting, and increasinglysuch important research is
happening in terms ofunderstanding the positive,
positive effects of the arts onthe brain, and particularly
music and music in terms ofhealing or calming, an
(25:24):
intervention, perhaps intochronic anxiety, negative
thinking. And it's significant,isn't it that people have wanted
to go out of their way to say,I'm not religious. I don't, I
don't believe in God, but Iwant, I want you to know this
(25:45):
has had a huge impact on mylife, or someone's life, or in
terms of healing. And would yousay that it's really amplified
to all of you, that there isperhaps a far greater role for
music and singing in all of ourlives, and perhaps relationships
(26:09):
that may be through religiousspaces, regardless of your
faith, could be very, veryhelpful. Well,
the thing is, somewhere Paula,we're
meeting each other in our commonhumanity, aren't we? Yeah, I
mean, and that that's where wemeet. That's why I meet people,
whether they're of faith or not,you're meeting a person in front
(26:32):
of you, and that's sacred forme, because each person is. I'm
sacred, so are you. And youknow, even in this conversation,
it's a meeting of hearts andminds, and we're meeting each
other at this moment, in aunique moment, and both of us
are having the courage to sharethat with a wider audience. So,
(26:55):
I mean, this is what it's about,isn't it? I mean, I can, I
absolutely believe completelythat beauty and the arts can
transform one's life. I reallybelieve that. But this isn't
new. Okay, they're doingresearch in health and all that,
(27:17):
but this, this isn't new. Thisis from the beginning, the
beginning of our humancondition. When you look, look
at hieroglyphics, look at andthat Dostoevsky said,
Beauty will save the world. It'snot power, it's not brains, it's
(27:40):
not being clever. There'ssomething beyond that. Yeah,
it's so important, isn't it,because that's such an important
point you've made, that thisisn't new, in fact, but maybe
what's new is we areincreasingly understanding the
importance of pushing away thebarriers, the structural
(28:02):
barriers that are actuallyblocking our access to beauty or
the arts as a pathway to beautyor to healing or to exchange,
cultural exchange that's soimportant to peacekeeping.
Right. Absolutely,yeah, yeah, that's why it's so
important, isn't it that. Imean, I think it's how you use
(28:26):
it, isn't it how you gain accessto these things? But if you if
you really desire it in London,I mean, even within a monastery,
so you know, I don't go toart galleries, I don't go to
music festivals anywhere, but Ifind a way to bring that into my
life, because it's important.Absolutely. And the other thing
(28:51):
that I understand you like tobring into your life, along with
your sisters, is Bob Marley.Well,
we do because we've
got a very eclectic musical,what
would you say?
Appetite? Yeah.
Appetite, that's a good word youknow, when you've got 22 people,
(29:13):
there's a very eclectic mix ofmusic in that. But the what, the
thing that came up about BobMarley was that we we also do a
thing called circle dancing.See, it's about expressing
yourself. So it's a way todance, and it's certain steps,
(29:33):
and you all do it together, andwe do that in our liturgy, but
to one of the dances we use, wesing it, we dance it to one of
Bob Marley's songs. I think isit Three Little Birds that's a
favorite. I think it is, yes,yeah. So it's a lovely example,
(29:54):
isn't it, of openness andexchange willingness to to be
open to all sorts of music orarts and culture in general, and
it might be surprising, becauseI imagine people might assume
that it's only ever about Holymusic and that your world isn't
(30:23):
actually more open than that. Ithink that's one of the things
that's been a great thing withthe album, is to have been able
to have the opportunity to sayto people through the media, is
that, you know, we're justordinary human beings, human
(30:44):
women who don't who you know,been called by God in a
particular way of life. But um,in our common we can meet each
other in our common humanity.And actually, you know, just
because I'm a nun doesn't meanthat I don't have, I
(31:04):
don't have the full gamut ofemotions and feelings like
everyone else. What is holiness?You see? What is holiness?
Holiness somewhere is to knowwho I am and then have it fully
in my humanity. Well, we allwant to do that? Yeah,
absolutely. And it's it'sinteresting, because obviously,
(31:28):
along came the second album, MyPeace I Give You, which also
went straight to the top of theclassical music charts. I'm
interested in how that may have,in fact, been a new challenge.
Was it a new discussion thatthat required courage and also
(31:51):
how you wanted to protectyourselves from becoming a
novelty for the wrong reasons?That's very that's an interesting
question. I think it alwaystakes courage, doesn't it, to
put yourself out there, or toput your music out there, or to
(32:13):
put whatever's inside of you outthere, because it's open to
scrutiny. So you've got, Ithink, somewhere to be at peace
with who you are and what you'resharing. We wanted when we were
invited to make a second album.We did it because of the the
(32:35):
response that we received frompeople, and they were asking us,
when you will you make moremusic, when will you make another
album, and we wanted somewherethere's a beautiful, beautiful
piece of writing that Franciswrote, called the Canticle of
Creation, and that's at thecenter of the second album. But
(32:58):
what's key to that is Paula withwhat we're sharing today is it's
about being in relationship. Andthat's what St Francis and St
Clare were absolutely thinking aboutin the 12th century. Is it's to
be a brother or a sister toeverything and and in the second
album, because St Francis saysabout brother, son and Sister
(33:22):
Moon, Mother Earth, SisterWater. And I think somewhere,
you see now we, we've become,we've dominated the planet.
We're sort of ruining itsomewhere, and we are not in a
right relationship with it. Ithink, or we need to re find it.
I think we've lost it a bit. Sothis whole second album is about
(33:46):
relationships, really, and sothat's why we wanted to focus on
that and also the environment,because it's crucial if we don't
learn how to live in harmonywith with everything you know
we're going to destroy you somuch. Yeah, absolutely. And for
(34:10):
listeners who may not befamiliar, the patron saint of
ecology and of animals is, ofcourse, St Francis, and as you
just touched on some of thosetracks and songs are called
Sister Moon and Stars, SisterWater, Brother Wind, Brother Sun
and, of course, Mother Earth. Sothis is, this is a beautiful
(34:33):
emphasis, isn't it aboutreminding us of the importance
of our relationship with thenatural world.
Absolutely, because
we, we somewhere exploited it.It's
like, it's like, sometimesthere's a danger, isn't
there, that everything is therefor all use. Because we, we
(34:54):
think that as a human being,we're like, at the top of
everything, you know, the humanrace is, like, at the top of
it, you know, it's not, and,and, yeah, you know, we there's
a beautiful story with StFrancis and how he, there was a
wolf, and this wolf wasterrorizing this little town in
(35:17):
Italy, and Francis enters into arelationship with this wolf and
and I think we, we forget, weforget that, as well as a woman
I, you know, I am a sister toeverything, and that actually,
(35:38):
the Earth feeds me. It nourishesme. It gives me what I need. But
it's not to exploit it. It's toto be in a right relationship
with it. Because I think ifwe're in a right relationship
with each other as human beingsand with our environment,
there's a greater sense of peaceand harmony and well being.
(36:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'dbe interested to learn a little
more about St Clare, because Iunderstand St Clare is
understood as a visionary, andshe was very young, wasn't she,
I think, only 16 years of agewhen she cultivated her own
(36:22):
connection in relationship withSt Francis. I'm interested in
the significance of St Clare toyou too, and also her status as
the first woman to write a rulefor other women.
She was the first woman in thehistory of the
church to write her own rule.You see, because somewhere the
(36:45):
church was, you know, the menwere telling the women, you
know, it was very patriarchalstructure as society was, you
see, I think what we always haveto remember is to put everything
in its historical context. So atthat time, so we're looking at
the 1200s it was unknown,really. And she was the first
(37:10):
woman to write a form of lifefor women. So she was amazing.
So she she was inspired by SaintFrancis and but she she was from
an aristocratic family. But thewhole thrust you see at that
time in Italy, in Umbria, andthere were these warring
(37:34):
factions, it's at the time ofthe Crusades. So there's loads
of violence. There's lots ofunrest, and here's Francis and
Clare coming to be men andwomen of peace, and to live in a
completely different way, to sayto live a simple life, to be
(37:56):
poor and to offer another way ofbeing. And Clare has, we don't
have a lot of her writings leftto us, but she wrote four
beautiful, absolutely beautifulletters that we have. And she
was writing to another woman whowas from a very was from a royal
(38:19):
family. And this woman wanted toleave everything and give her
life to God, and Clare
encouraged her to
do it, beautiful, and as in thefirst album, some of Clare's
words are there. You know? Itwas like gaze, consider,
(38:40):
contemplate, as you desire toimitate. And so although it's
about stopping and thinking andbeing and entering into oneself
and being centered, it doesn'tstop there. You have to go out
and you have to go out to theother so when she says, imitate
(39:02):
for us, of course she's speakingabout Jesus, but it's about
incarnating it, making it real,and giving away in some way,
giving your time and giving yourgifts, giving your material
things
in order to
(39:23):
be fully human, in order toreach, what she would say, the
heights of of contemplation, shewas very, very grounded. So
interesting and contemplation,the emphasis on contemplation
and meditation that very muchfeeds into mindfulness, which we
(39:47):
all hear a lot more about today.It's an idea that's much more in
the mainstream, and mindfulnessreflects philosophical thoughts
from different spiritualleaders, but very much, much in
harmony with a lot of thingsyou've been saying about how we
can learn to calm the mind, howwe can learn to create space
(40:10):
around our thoughts, but also tobe open to new thoughts and to
other thoughts.
Absolutely. I
mean, I think it's a discipline,isn't it? So for me, I mean, we
have an hour of contemplativeprayer every morning, in the
early morning, it's, it's adiscipline. It's like
everything, and you've got to,like, you know, as somebody said
(40:36):
to me, it's like going to thegym, you know, we all want to be
slim and beautiful, but we don'twant to put the hard work in.
And I think somewhere thespiritual life is the same. We
we've got have that disciplineof sitting there in silence, in
contemplation, go through theboredom, go through the whatever
(40:58):
it is, go through the darkness,and in order to enter into that,
that that place of oneness andcommunion, and it's hard work as
well. Yeah, it is literallyexercise, isn't it? It is. I'm
really interested in returningto a question you raised earlier
(41:20):
about what what is holy? What isholiness? And this is actually
in relation to your secondalbum, My Peace I Give You,
which was recorded, well,actually, I should say, mixed at
Abbey Road, the very, veryfamous Abbey Road Studios, which
the Beatles probably put oneverybody's map, but actually
(41:45):
there are so many famous namesthat have been there. And
actually Juliet Pochin, whohelped produce your albums, who
has a remarkable career of herown, she also created an album
with the voice of EllaFitzgerald, and it was through
(42:08):
the through the stunningstate of the art studio of Abbey
Road, and lifting her voice frommono to a new album, you know,
with new composed music behindher voice, and it sounds
incredible. It's absolutelyastonishing. And it and it also
(42:29):
drew my attention to anotherband, the Hollies a successful
60s band that people may or maynot have heard of, but they were
often at Abbey Road recordingalongside the Beatles, and I saw
in one of their interviews thatthey compared going to Abbey
Road Studios for the first timeas like entering a cathedral. It
(42:53):
felt holy because it was sorevered. And that came back to
my mind when you raised thequestion, what is holy? Is it
about, is it about reverence? Isit about sacred spaces?
Well, it is, yeah,but I think that's all relative
to to the person, isn't it? And,but I think the the holiness. So
(43:19):
we have sacred places, and wehave beautiful cathedrals, and
we have but, but as just thatexample that you said about that
musician, he found that place tobe holy or sacred for him, and
you know, it's a reflection ofwhere we are always, I think,
(43:41):
isn't it of who we are, where weare? Yeah. I mean, I love to
pray in in our chapel. I love topray in the garden, in nature.
So sometimes Paula and I thinkit's, you know, with what eyes
are we looking at something?What do we see? Because
somewhere it's a reflection ofourselves and what's inside of
(44:04):
us. And what was your experiencelistening back to the recordings
once everything was mixed atAbbey Road, because, of course,
you visited the studios.
What was that impact
like to to hear state of the artrecording of your singing, of
(44:25):
your singing. Well, it wasinteresting because I think it
was either five or six of uswent, and then we wouldn't
normally do that. You see, wewouldn't be leaving a monastery,
our monastery, to go and dothat. But we thought it would be
a wonderful experience tolisten, as you've just said, to
(44:47):
our music, and we were invitedby Decca Records to go, and I
have to say it was the mostextraordinary experience. So we
went up into a very smallstudio. Abbey Road,
they have these speakers. It'scalled the surround system, so
the the speakers are allaround you and and we just
(45:12):
listened to the album from thebeginning to the end. It was
just absolutely amazing. It waswonderful. And an opportunity
never to be forgotten, and andalso you see, so you can
have an amazing
aha moment, whatever you callit, but,
(45:34):
but we also had a lot of fun,you know. And we, and perhaps
some of your listeners mightknow, but some of us, I said,
we have to cross that Abbey Roadand do the Beatles walk. And we
did. So, you know, the fullyhuman and the fully divine. I
think it's bringing the whole,our wholeness as human beings
(45:56):
together as one. Yeah, it'sfantastic. I absolutely love the
photo of you and sisterscrossing the very, very famous
Abbey Road, zerbra crossing.And it's interesting because we
touched on the idea of noveltyearlier, because there can be a
(46:16):
fine balancing act of nuns whosing, not being made too much of
a novelty. But at the same time,I find novelty can be a very
healthy door opener, that itencourages healthy curiosity.
(46:38):
Yes, I think, I think
that's absolutely true, and I
think that's exactly what'shappened with us. There is a
healthy I think there is ahealthy curiosity now, and
that's good, because it's agreat sadness to me that nuns
(46:58):
somewhere might just become anovelty, because we're not, do
you know what I mean? We're justordinary human beings who are
living a particular way of life.And let's hope that these albums
dispel some myths. I mean,perhaps we are seen as a
novelty, but that, for meyourself, because a novelty
(47:21):
somewhere is something outsideof you. It's something that's a
bit different, or it's somethingthat's so far removed from your
experience. So what I would sayis, if you, if anybody thinks of
nuns as novelties, you need toengage with one, because then
you realize that they're justthe same as everybody else.
Yeah, and can have verysurprising and helpful
(47:45):
conversations. You can sharehumor, you can share completely
new ideas. But it's important, Ithink, that we maintain a sense
of healthy curiosity when wewant to discover more about
things, even if it seems like anovelty at first. Yeah, I think
(48:08):
you're right. But I think that,as you've said previously, that
takes great courage, doesn't it?Because we've got to step out in
some way, expose ourselves.Yeah, and I think this came up
outside of your albums. I thinkthis was a particularly good
example. In the past, the PoorClares agreed to make a
(48:32):
television series which wascalled The Convent, and for the
listeners The Convent, which wasshown on the BBC, it followed
four women who were reallyembarking on a unique journey.
They lived with the Poor Claresfor 40 days and for 40 nights,
(48:52):
perhaps Sister Gabriel, we couldthink of that as a social
experiment. It was exploring howthe traditional values of the
Poor Clares could potentiallyhelp women tackle contemporary
problems, for example. But Iimagine that took courage from
all of you who were involved. Ithink it absolutely did. So,
(49:18):
yeah, you're right. I mean, Ithink the the idea behind it was
to say, actually, that there'ssomething that the way that we
live our life has something veryimportant to say to the way that
we live in society, for want ofa better word. I mean, I live in
(49:40):
society, but I live apart fromit, and it was a sort of meeting
of two worlds. I think thedifference is that we were
called to this way of life,and they weren't, but to meet
each other in our commonhumanity. But they did. They
lived with us for. 40 days and40 nights, and sometimes it was
(50:02):
hard because sometimes the fitdidn't go well. And sometimes
it's hard, isn't it, when you'vegot to just knuckle down and get
on with things when you don'twant to do it. We've all had
that experience. And sometimesit was like that for them and
for us too, you know, sometimeswe've just had to knuckle down
(50:24):
and get on with it as well. Butit was, I think, wonderful to
see how the rhythm of those daysreally did touch them in a very
deep place. Because when theyleft here, you know, they went
and having had a really aunique experience, and I think
about themselves in a new way,discovered things about
(50:47):
themselves that this lifetouched upon that might not have
been touched upon otherwise.Yeah, that's so interesting. And
would you say that is partly theimpact of being in a monastic
setting or a convent setting.And would you say it also had
everything to do with structure,because you just referred to
(51:12):
rhythm, again, that reallyimportant sense of rhythm in
terms of how you live yourlives. Would you say this is
where the impact lay for thesewomen, and was it a door opener
for how they wanted to eithercultivate their own courage or
(51:34):
their own thinking about thechanges they felt they needed to
make in their own lives? Yeah, Idon't know Paula. I can't speak
for them. I wouldn't like tospeak for them. So I couldn't
answer that, but I would say, Ithink, do you know what? Just
when you asked that question,what came to mind for me was I
(51:54):
was just thinking, Saint Clarehas this thing, and she calls it
the grace of work, right? Shecalls it the grace of work. So
speaking about rhythm, I thinkwhat you see, I think it's
about, sometimes, when we thinkabout we're going to work,
right? So I know there are manypeople that hate their jobs, but
(52:18):
they go to work to pay themortgage and have enough money,
you know, to go on holiday. Andthere's nothing wrong with that
at all. But there's something, Imean, I suppose that's why I'm
in an incredibly privilegedposition, that my life and work
create a harmony and a peace, Ithink. And I'm very blessed. But
(52:39):
there's something I think aboutthe human condition, needing a
rhythm and needing that's whyit's so hard to be unemployed,
and because we've got to createsomething, because we want
purpose and meaning in our life.Yeah, absolutely and and rhythm
(53:04):
is really a way of perhapsorganizing your life and
organizing it in a way that willfeel more rewarding, that you
actually understand how you wantto spend your time. Yeah,
it's, you know, it's value,isn't it?
(53:26):
What do we where do we put ourvalue? Where do we place our
value, isn't it, you know what Imean, which is different for
everybody? Yeah, and it makes mewonder, actually, from from your
point of view, I think youentered the Poor Clares at age
23 and so I think, are weabout 30 years later, for
(53:52):
example. So in terms of you knowthe rhythm of your life now, and
how you reflect back on yourformer and younger life, you
know, you've said, you know, youwere a completely different
person, of course. Howdo you reflect on those
differences now? Oh, gosh,that's a massive question.
(54:18):
Should we do a second episode?Wow, I
think episode two, yeah, and howdo I reflect? And, you know, I'm
full of gratitude and I'm fullof Thanksgiving. I think life
has been very challenging, butit's been full of adventure and
possibility, and I'm so gratefulfor the life that I have,
(54:43):
because I think all the time I'mdiscovering more and more who I
am. Yeah, and it was sointeresting to discover you know
that after your degree, you alsowent on to live and work in
Czechoslovakia for a year. Sovery distinctly
different lives. What
(55:03):
do you think
may have been calling you to tochange your life? Because it's a
significant change, isn't it,and also moving away from your
own family, for example, do youknow it's such a mystery? Paula,
not that I want to make youknow, make it some esoteric
(55:25):
thing, but it is a mystery, youknow, because somewhere deep
within me there was arestlessness. That's the only
thing I can say for somethingmore. I mean, one could see, why
does anyone end up in the careerthat they choose. You know that
they choose. Why is it that wefall in love with a particular
(55:46):
person? It's it's mysterioussomewhere, and you can't put
your finger on it. And for me,there was a restlessness within
me that was something callingme, something much, much bigger
than myself and I just thought,I've got to follow this. I've
got to
and, and, you know, no regrets.
(56:09):
It's not always been easy, but,and, but no regrets. And it's so
interesting in how anyone whomakes significant changes in
their lives, are able to find away of tolerating the unknown,
if you like, to to be curiousenough to pursue it and
(56:30):
courageous enough to do it. Andyeah, so would you say that
that's kind of an ongoingcultivation. You know,
definitely, definitely, it's anongoing because life is changing
all the time, isn't it, andwe're engaging with ourselves
(56:51):
all the time, and we're engagingwith new things all the time.
I'm not a stationary person. Youknow, my feelings and emotions
and my human life, and thepeople who come into my life or
help are growing all the time.It's whether I can keep saying
yes to what comes that's thething. Take the risk. Be curious
(57:16):
enough
and to
to not be afraid, to not beafraid to take the risk. Yeah,
knowing that, actually, I dobelieve this, it's not to be
negative. But I think there'sone little aspect that I haven't
shared today, is that also it'sa Christian perspective, and
(57:38):
it's mine, but Jesus did say,said, take up your cross and
follow me. So I think sometimessociety in the world can say,
or, you know, sort of happyromantic films, that life is
wonderful and and it's alwayslovely. And actually, we all
know that it's not, and thatlife can be very tough.
(58:00):
Yeah. And I think we mustn't,you know, forget that actually,
and all of us somewhere as it'staking up my cross and following
the Lord, but for everyone, Ithink we all have to do that in
our own way. Yeah, yeah, because
it shapes us, and it forms
us and it grows us as a person,doesn't it? If you think in your
(58:24):
if you know, if your listenersthink in their own life about
their own sufferings and howthat shaped one's personhood?
Yeah, it's part of ourevolution. Yeah,
absolutely.
So as time, I'm afraid alwaysgoes far too fast. I'd like to
(58:46):
move towards a couple of thingsto finish on one being a
question I ask everybody, justto explore different responses,
I suspect you'll have adifferent answer to the
question, Can art save us? Oh,yes, it can,
absolutely, it can.
Can art save us? What is art?What is it?
(59:11):
How do we define it?
Do you see it as, do yousee it as a pathway? A pathway,
because it can seem like asimplistic question, Can art
save us? But that's todeliberately prompt discussion.
But it's about beauty. It'sabout touching the scent when I
(59:32):
when I look at a piece of art,or I listen to a piece of music,
and it moves me, or ittransforms me, or it takes me to
another place. It's abouttouching the divine with inside
of me, so that for me, it'stouching God. So can art save me?
Absolutely, of course it can.
(59:53):
It does. It saves me every day.
And it was really interestingwhen I had the opportunity.
Opportunity to speak to youprior to this interview that you
referenced artists like thePittman painters, but also the
social documentary photographerTish, who, again for the
(01:00:15):
listeners, did outstanding work,particularly in the North East
of England, very much driven bysocial justice and sadly
documented acute poverty. Andactually, Sister Gabriel this,
you know, knowing that your youknow your roots are from the
north east, isn't it sad to readthat a report published in
(01:00:37):
February of this year, it's theNorth East Child Poverty
Commission, more than a third ofchildren in the North East are
living in poverty. Exactly whatTish was documenting back in the
70s. Shocking. It's absolutelyshocking. It's just dreadful.
(01:00:59):
Yeah, I can't I mean, what
can I say to that? Education isthe way out.
I think so, education the arts.And this was around you as a
young person growing up at home,some exposure to the arts was
this part of your family life?Absolutely.
(01:01:22):
I
mean, what my my next so I'm oneof four girls, but my next
sister up was an actor for many,many years, and worked in
community theater and thenworked in television, but and so
as a child, you know, I was in adrama group, it just broadens
(01:01:47):
your perspective and, you know,makes you think of possibility.
And so I've always been atheater goer, and I've always
been a person who's been movedby music and poetry and
literature. Yeah, beautiful.Well, um, sadly, our our time is
(01:02:10):
up, and just before sayingfarewell, I will play out with a
beautiful song from the currentalbum. It's the title track My
Peace I Give You, and I'd reallylike to encourage listeners to
take the time just to sit, restyour eyes and experience the
(01:02:31):
harmony and sincerity of thePoor Clares singing on this
particular track from thecurrent album. The choice also
marks International Peace Day,which is when this season is
first published, September the21st. You'll also see links to
the album, The Poor Clares ontheir episode page, so that you
(01:02:54):
can discover more. I'd like tothank you all very much for
listening, especially thank you,Sister Gabriel, for taking part.
And as the nuns themselves say,there is no need to be religious
to love their music. Paula,thank you so much for a really
interesting and enjoyableconversation. I thoroughly
(01:03:16):
enjoyed it. Thank you. I'm sopleased to hear that I've been
so looking forward to talking toyou and thank you again for all
of your Time Today.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.