October 22, 2025 • 67 mins
Birungi Kawooya is a self-taught British-Ugandan artist, wellbeing researcher, and creative facilitator. Her name, Birungi, means 'Bringer of Good Things,' a name deeply rooted in Ugandan culture. Her art practice is a return to her heritage. Reconnecting with Ugandan culture, artisanal practices, and the natural environment, has been central to her personal recovery. After a marketing career in London left her deeply burnt out, Birungi turned toward art and healing. She began exploring the trauma she experienced as a Black, disabled woman, and as a child growing up in London with working-class roots. Self-care has come through creating art with natural fibres such as palm and banana leaves, embracing afro-somatic movement and dances of the African diaspora, whilst keeping an emphasis on rest and simply being enough. Birungi’s work reminds us that care is cultural, creative, and communal, and that healing practices from the Global Majority have long offered wisdom, balance, and restoration. Her workshops offer safe, healing spaces for Black women and non-binary people. And, as a true 'Bringer of Good Things,' she offers community care through mindfulness rooted in African practices, nurturing healing and connection. Her spaces of cultural rootedness are acts of both resistance and restoration, where Birungi invites you to dream, rest, and heal.
Images courtesy of Birungi Kawooya.
Discover Birungi Kawooya: https://birungikawooyaart.com/home/
Production:
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all audio interviews in this series.
Read only, text transcripts of every interview, news, reviews and your host, Paula Moore, are available here: https://canartsaveus.com/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to Can ArtSave Us? The podcast exploring
how the arts can strengthen andeven transform our mental
societal and democratic health.I talk with diverse, award
winning artists about how thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity and why we need thesequalities to confront today's
global epidemics of mentalillness, loneliness,
(00:23):
polarisation of our communitiesand even worldwide conflict. Be
part of this national andinternational conversation. Join
us to discover how the arts canreally help you. My guest today
is Birungi Kawooya, a self taughtBritish Ugandan artist, well-
(00:44):
being researcher and creativefacilitator. Her name Birungi
means 'bringer of good things,'a name deeply rooted in Ugandan
culture. Her art practice is areturn to her heritage,
reconnecting with Ugandanculture, artisanal practices and
the natural environment, has beencentral to her personal
(01:05):
recovery. After a marketingcareer in London left her deeply
burnt out, Birungi turnedtowards art and healing. She
began exploring the trauma sheexperienced as a black, disabled
woman and as a child growing upin London with working class
roots, self care has comethrough creating art with
natural fibres such as palm and banana leaves, embracing Afro
(01:30):
somatic movement and dances ofthe African diaspora whilst
keeping an emphasis on rest andsimply Being enough. Birungi's
work reminds us that care iscultural, creative and communal,
and that healing practices fromthe global majority have long
offered wisdom, balance andrestoration. Her workshops offer
(01:53):
safe healing spaces for blackwomen and non binary people, and
as a true bringer of goodthings, she offers community
care through mindfulness, rootedin African practices, nurturing,
healing and connection. Herspaces of cultural rootedness
are acts of both resistance andrestoration, where Birungi
(02:15):
invites you to dream, rest andheal. Hello, Burundi, and thank
you very much for joining metoday.
Hello Paula. It's a pleasure tobe with you. Bless
you, I really do appreciate youmaking the time. Your output of
care and good things is huge.You're working very, very
(02:37):
consistently, whilst, of course,you have an emphasis on balance
in your own life. And I thoughtit would be really interesting
to start with a striking quotefrom you that might even
surprise listeners when, ofcourse, the work you do is so
accomplished. And it was a quoteI saw stating "People say being
(02:59):
an artist is brave. For me inthose first years, it didn't
feel brave at all. It wassurvival. It was escape from
toxic workplaces that denied myhumanity. It was necessary." And
I found that really striking andinteresting, because you didn't
feel it was brave, yet itappears to be such a strong act
(03:24):
of courage to then find thepathway and develop your
artistic practice in the waythat you have.
Thank you for picking thatquote. I really do feel and
believe that, and I can say thatbecause with the perspective
that I have now in the phasethat I'm in. So when I spoke
(03:46):
about those first few years,those first few years for me,
were me grappling with burnoutand understanding that it's not
the usual depression that I'vehad throughout pretty much my
life, since teenage through myteenage years, through to my 20s
and 30s, that I was experiencingsomething different, and now
(04:09):
that I'm in a different phase ofthis burnout recovery, where I
have more capacity than I've hadin probably decades, I am now
feeling the fear so I know thatI wasn't very, I didn't feel
brave. I didn't, I wasn't actingin a brave way. I was purely
acting on instinct in thosefirst few years. Because if I
(04:33):
could get out of bed and get onthe bus and meet up with some
community dancers in Greenwich,if I could, you know, figure out
how to co produce a danceproduction in Greenwich Park
with incredible artists thatwould support people during the
(04:57):
times they were allowed out in,you know, 2020, 22, during those
covid times, I just if I couldsay yes, then that meant I was I
was good enough, I was healthyenough, but yeah, now I'm
feeling the fear, and I'm reallyappreciating how art helped me,
helped me regain my strength andmy capacity I have now. So it's
(05:20):
a bit of a roundabout process.
Yeah, it's interesting, though,the use of the word fear and the
experience of fear, becausethere's such a close
relationship with vulnerability,feeling fearful and yet that
becoming a springboard for actsof courage, which can be having
(05:42):
the courage to change or to findchange that's pertinent to
recovery, to well being, to yourlife. And I thought it was very
interesting reading about yourreturn to Uganda for a few
months. And actually I think youwere due for some arts funding,
but decided I'm not waiting. I'mgoing to go anyway. And I
(06:06):
wondered if you'd like to sharesome of that with the listeners,
because it seemed such asignificant journey in terms of
how you've become the artist youare today, but with very
specific purposes and approachesto healing.
Sure. So
I was navigating Covid in 2020 Igot a job in March 2020 after
(06:31):
about eight months of I've lostcount of employment. So I got
into work. The world shut down.I was working 12 hour days
because we were a business thatwas highly in demand, and as the
world crumbled, my mental healthalso took a toll, because I am a
(06:53):
human but unfortunately, I havebeen trained to not treat myself
as a human being, so I didn'treally see that. I wasn't going
to keep that pace up. And when Iwas let go in August 2021 and
(07:13):
you know, being managed out fora couple of mistakes after
working intensely hard with verylittle support. I mean, they
went on to hire two people, itshappened before. So I said to
myself this, I can't keep doingthe same thing and expecting a
different result. And I justbegan to imagine what it would
(07:37):
be like to to learn to weavethese palm fibre mats that I
know that my aunts can make inUganda. And I thought, well, I
know it's not just whitesupremacy and ableism that is
working against me in the UK,secularism also has a place. So
(07:58):
how is it that my aunts, whoobviously deal with patriarchy
in the Ugandan context. How isit that they have been able to
maintain their health like, whatis it that they do? What are the
practices in my culture that Icould learn from? What is it
that I haven't been able tolearn because I've been educated
(08:19):
in the Western Way, and art wastaught in a very specific way.
So I began to think and wonderand imagine and romanticise what
it would be like to be able toweave these mats, what it could
do to my mind if I could focusmy hands and sit on these mats.
(08:41):
And that's just where theInkling began once I had that
break from full time work, whichhas been four years now. So that
was the beginning of the idea.And then I thought, well, I want
to learn. I want to learn aboutbanana fibres. We use them in so
many processes in our basketry,which physically and
(09:03):
metaphorically holds so much soimportant. I want to learn about
bark cloth, this incredibleregenerative material that
decorates my home, but I knowwas used as clothing in our
culture, before the cotton tradewas encouraged and Christian
(09:25):
influence really shamed andvilified, the practice of using
bark cloth, as in our day to dayculture, because of its also
links to our death rituals Andthat just spirituality and
ecology that comes with usingand nurturing these trees and
(09:47):
harvesting these materials. Ijust had so many questions, so I
had to go and, you know, I hadworked in the city, so I had
savings and so I said, I'mgoing to go. I can fund this for
three months. But you know, bythe time I submitted that Arts
Council funding application, Ipoured my heart and soul into
(10:09):
what my desires were like. Whocould I be? I want to build this
residency, which I can see nowis an art therapy residency. I
made it to try and resolve thesetraumatic events that have
happened and have reoccurred.And I thought, let me work this
(10:31):
out. Let me look at this, let mefeel this through these
materials in a completelydifferent environment.
And I will fund it. And so
I just moved and nothing wasstopping me, because I have my
mum, I have got my aunt, andI've developed relationships
(10:51):
with with a wonderful curator,Martha Kazungu of the Njabala
Foundation, and sheconnected me to wonderful
practitioners in these naturalfibre arts and crafts, from
academics to researchers toother artists and fashion
(11:16):
designers. Yeah.
I mean, this sounds like areally brave and beautiful
investment at that time, in yourrecovery and in your future. You
know you have to be braveenough, don't you, to decide
whether you're spending yoursavings, whether you're going to
take this new direction and justto be open to those new
(11:38):
possibilities.
Okay, it's so interestinghearing your perspective and
then really sitting with it.Because, you know, I had, I did
sell my flat last year. Youknow, I have made significant
investments, and that's, I don'tregret any of it because I was
(11:59):
investing in my health, becauseI wasn't doing that before. I
was focused on having a properjob and appearing to have it all
and minimising the trauma andthe horror of the workplaces
that I've been in, and just notgiving myself any time to see if
(12:26):
there was, there was anotherpath so I can, I do have to
accept that it was brave. But Ihad spent so long, you know,
since graduated in 20 in 2006 15years of not, not being well,
really, yeah, that is whatinvesting in myself is stands in
(12:47):
contrast to.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Ithink such a significant work
from last year in 2024 was theSpace of Resistance and Renewal
which was installed at theScience Gallery in London. I
wondered if you'd like to sharemore on that for listeners,
because, of course, having justspoken about the time you spent
(13:10):
in Uganda, returning to thosenatural materials traditions,
craft making, I'm reallyinterested in how for you that
helped manifest your in terms ofcreating those structures, which
I understand was specificallyfor rest, repair and resistance.
(13:31):
Sure, I was so over the moon toreceive that commission from the
science gallery, they found theearlier iteration of that work a
space for rest that I made at 32Degrees East in Uganda in 2022
and they asked me to expand it.So what was wonderful about
(13:56):
being able to bring to createthat work in London was that I
was able to bring my culture toLondon, which is where I spend
most of my time. And thesematerials are dazzling, I think,
beyond the symbolism that I putinto the structures these
pyramids, you know, an officialpyramid is a shape that has the
(14:17):
most like perfect integrity. Sothat's why I chose to make
pyramid structures, and then I wove and collaged shield
designs into the sides to again,imbue it with a sense of
protection and resistance to theforces that you know seek to
(14:42):
harm us, which is quiteobviously white supremacy and
capitalism and also ableism,yeah, and it being able to make
the work larger was so importantbecause what I've since learned
through my burnout. Recovery isthat I had to leave this place
(15:03):
of isolation, where I keptwhereas isolated, it's very
important for me to talk aboutmy mental health struggle, my
PTSD, is it even my PTSD?
And I guess when we're inpossession of our own trauma, it
would only make sense to referto my post traumatic stress.
(15:29):
Thank you for hearing me. Ithink what I came to a
realisation today is depression,anxiety, trauma, PTSD, these are
all in reaction to reallyharmful, harmful acts. And I
talk about recovery, but it'shard. It's still hard to say
(15:53):
these are the forces that havecaused me to feel this pain. And
what's important is that I wantto hold space. And I want to I
want people to feel like this,to gather, because there is
strength in us coming together.And that was what was really
important about a Space forResistance and Renewal and then
(16:15):
bringing it back full circle tothe materials that I use, that
I'm obsessed with because theyare regenerative, which is to
say they are harvested from thetrees that do not they're not
felled. They are still living,and because we as the Buganda
(16:39):
have learned to take care of thetree that gives us the bark
cloth and the banana tree theycan continue to thrive and grow.
And that metaphor that act issomething I'm always trying to
learn from and enact. Andactually, as black, disabled
(17:00):
women, we do this all the time,and so maybe that's the bravery
you can see that I sometimestake for granted.
Yeah, I'm always interested inexperiences of bravery and
courage, because, of course,it's very easy to not, perhaps
give ourselves some credit forwhen we're brave enough to make
(17:22):
a change, not because it's abouttrumpet blowing, but because,
unfortunately, we are so oftentoo busy undermining ourselves
in the first place, or feelingso undermined by external forces
or people around us that itbecomes a deprivation we don't
(17:44):
recognise perhaps our ownstrengths or our own values in
terms of how we're trying torecover, in terms of how we're
trying to make positive Change.
Oh, you've touched you'vetouched me there.
Take some time to reflect onthat. If that's useful to you in
(18:06):
any way.
It is useful to me, so much of,
I'll choose my words wisely.
I'm realising. I'm realisingmore and more how brave I am and
the other disabled black womenthat are like me every day. And
(18:29):
trying to, I tried toacknowledge that because that
undermining that you speak of iscan feel very prevalent. And,
yeah, but they don't win. Ithink these are wobbles, and I'm
allowed to this is part of myreclaiming my own humanity, like
(18:52):
it's okay to not be strong andstoic the way I saw my mum, you
know, navigate South East Londonas a single mother with six kids
and having so many siblings andnieces back home and nephews,
(19:13):
and I didn't really see any ofher wobbles and yeah, basically,
she's strong and brave in adifferent way. And I think what
I'm trying to accept is thatit's okay for me to to falter,
because at the end of the day, Iunderstand that at the core, I
(19:38):
am like my grandmother's wildestdream. I don't think she could
have foreseen where I am now,but I know she's so proud of me,
my mother's mother, yeah,
I think 12 kids. So there'srecognition around you,
(19:59):
particularly from yourgrandma, and all of this
translates so well, of course,into your work, not just as
black culturally rooted care,but also where you work
specifically in spaces orcreating liberatory spaces for
black women and non binaryindividuals, where you have an
(20:22):
emphasis on helping people toreconnect with themselves, their
heritage and creativity, whichmay be existing or a new
discovery, even. I wondered ifyou might like to bring to life
as an example of that your workSisters Need Sleep.
(20:45):
Sure that that piece, SistersNeed Sleep birthed a collection,
and the other first Sisters NeedSleep was a piece that I made
that shows three women holdingeach other, one is resting, and
(21:07):
the other two look like they'restanding guard and supporting
her. And I made that piece toit's almost like a future self
portrait. I knew that that'swhat I wanted and needed, and
that I needed to allow myself tobe supported and to stop trying
to be strong and just to keepgoing. But I wasn't there yet
(21:31):
that piece was is so importantto me because it's, it's really
helped me to understand how myart guides me, and also speak
can speak to other women, otherblack women, that understand
that we need to deprogramourselves from just continuing,
(21:53):
just doing everything we've beenasked to do, that We are also
worthy of slowing down andletting ourselves being taken
care of and nurtured.
That piece is very, is verypivotal.
Yeah, absolutely, because Ithink the emphasis on sleep, or
(22:16):
effectively the emphasis onstopping, on having space to
rest as part of self care, aspart of resisting the capitalist
demands of overworking, which sooften translates as a form of
bullying in the workplace, butalso with a lovely emphasis on
(22:38):
having the space through sleepto dream. And I'm really
interested in how you might liketo expand on the importance of
dreaming, and also, again, inrelation to your Ugandan
heritage, -y understanding is inthe pre colonial Buganda
kingdom, dreams were asignificant cultural tool that
(23:01):
would help inform communities oroffering counsel. For example,
you know, there would be adirect social impact from the
interpretations of those dreams.I wondered if, if this was all
something that was informingthis particular work, Sisters
Need Sleep.
I love that piece of researchthat you shared, and that's not
(23:25):
something I have even soughtout, because when I think of
dreaming, when I think of sleep,I think of rest, and I
absolutely advocate and I'm sofascinated in people's what I
call dreams and hopes anddesires. And then you've you
(23:47):
shared that dreams actuallyinformed how the Kingdom of
Buganda, pre colonially, would,yeah, would it would contribute
to society. I feel like I didn'tknow that happened. I'm just
(24:09):
deeply fascinated inunderstanding who and what it is
that I really want. Sometimesdreams can be interpreted and
helpful, and sometimes they,they, they show me what I am
hoping for. Sometimes I can'tmake sense of them. But what I'm
(24:30):
I'm always trying to nurture iswho I really am, because I
just have a sense that I spent abig part of my adulthood. In
reaction to and I'm just tryingto get back to the core of who I
(24:52):
am, outside of any of thesemarkers. So even being of the
descended from the kingdom ofBuganda. That is my identity I
would love, sometimes I say Ican't wait until I'm just a
being, because even being awoman, even being black, like
(25:15):
all of these are labels, and I'mnot, and I'm acting in reaction
to what these labels, whatpeople think that these beings
should be doing? You know, as awoman, I should be doing this as
a disabled person, I should bedoing that as a black person. I
should be doing this. And then,isn't it amazing that I, despite
being black and disabled as awoman or as a woman from
(25:37):
Buganda, that I'm doing this?Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely. Because Ithink you know, similarly,
actually, in other interviewswhere I've spoken to other black
women artists who also talkabout decolonializing
(25:57):
themselves, their own personallife and world, because it's
dropping those labels, thoseexpectations, stereotypes, and
reclaiming, not only your ownheritage, but if you like, a
whole new starting point that'sfree of all those kind of
(26:20):
imposed ideas.
You're absolutely right, and I'mglad that that echoes. And
that's, you know, I'm incrediblyproud to be a black, disabled
woman from South London, andjust one day, one day those
(26:41):
labels won't matter. Yeah, Ithink this is why there's a
piece that I've made, a futureself portrait I've made where I
suggest I'm flying. Yes, there'sthat feeling of anything is
possible, and that's what I wantfor myself, as I want for
(27:03):
everybody to not let us be heldback in any way. Because what
would the what could the worldlook like
if we had everything we needed,which is
black feminist black feminisms,Black Liberation theory. You
know, those are the conditionsthat we would have if we
(27:24):
actually treated people aspeople treated nature in
accordance to nature's laws,everybody would get what they
needed. And then where would webe if we could not act from a
place of survival, and just, youknow, be truly free.
(27:46):
And I think the piece you'retalking about, if I'm correct,
is, Fly, Birungi, Fly? Correct.Yeah, yeah. So, would, would
you mind illustrating that alittle more for the listeners,
because there's such aninteresting breakdown of of
everything that you've put intothat portrait and into that
projection, if you like, of yourof your future self. It really
(28:10):
relates to how you've beeninfluenced, of course, by your
Ugandan heritage, and thechoices you've made in that
portrait are all verysignificant choices or symbols.
Perhaps you could illustratethat further for the listeners,
sure.
So in this piece, it thebackdrop is black. I'm using
(28:35):
black cloth. And this was black.Bark cloth has been dyed black.
The natural colour of bark clothis that rich brown. So I don't
think I even grew up with anyblack cloth at home. So I was
really excited to find thatpiece. And I thought, well, this
is what the future will willlook like, the colour black
(28:58):
because of my political identityand also of the infinite nature
of black, kind of reminiscent ofgalaxies, just all the myriad of
possibilities. That's why Ichose the black cloth. And then
in this piece, my future self isstanding upright with a spear in
(29:25):
her hand and a dancing skirt ather waist, and also holding on
to a shield. It's by her side,and it's very, very, very
faintly outlined. So that's forme to the emphasis is that the
(29:47):
protection is there, but I'm nolonger anticipating attack. It's
just there. I think that's quitesignificant in terms of my past
and present portrait. It's, soI'm, I'm strong, I am dancing,
(30:08):
so I've got the dancing skirt,and there's a levitation in the
feet. You can just, it's,there's, there's a myriad of
possibilities.
And would you say renewed aswell? Are you seeing yourself as
renewed, regenerated in the sameway, for example, the practice
(30:28):
of using banana skins aroundtrees help, help regenerate?
Yes, yes, you you've doneexcellent research.
You've done excellent work, soit's only reflecting such
interesting work.
Yes, yes. So yeah. So I've usedthe banana fibre, which is like
(30:50):
the bark bit of the banana tree,and the banana leaves when they
are harvesting bark cloth fromfig tree the omatuba tree, they
wrap banana leaves around thattrunk, and then that heals. And
(31:10):
absolutely the whole collectionmy past, present and future self
portraits, I move through statesof attack in the past and fear
to recovery in the present, tostrength and victory and
possibility in the future. Andtime is is not linear,
(31:35):
and I recently, I found myself
feeling feelings of fear thatare reminiscent to past
experiences, but I know I'vecome so far, and I know I've
experienced this before, and soI went through the feelings that
I remembered, but I've done thisbefore. I know I can recover, I
(31:55):
know I can move, I know I candance, I know I can sing, I know
I can fight back. I know I canspeak up for myself. I know I
can choose a different path. Iliterally recently went through
the whole cycle again, and Iactually reference, as we are
(32:16):
aware, there is a rise of thefar right is rising. Fascist
movements are rising. A lot offear is being pumped into
immigrant communities in the UKand across Europe and across the
US, and that is designed to takeits toll. And then last week, I
(32:43):
was shook. I was deeplyemotional, just unsure if what
I'm doing is worthwhile andmaking an impact, and just, can
I? Can I keep this up? And thenI remembered, I haven't been
walking enough. I haven't beenmoving. And it's really my
(33:05):
movement practice that helps mebe able to create these visions
and artworks that guided me tothe woman I am today. And I've
walked past in my neighbourhood.I've walked past England flags,
and I've decided that I willsalute them. I will acknowledge
(33:27):
them, and the act of walking inthe sunshine to music I love,
I'm feel proud to take up spacein my neighbourhood, and I've
decided the England flag, whilstsometimes it can scare me. You
know, that's not that is alsothe truth. I've decided I'm not
(33:49):
going to stay inside, and I'vedecided I'm not going to not say
white inferiority or capitalistexploitation or ableism like
these are real structures. Andby the mere fact that I can name
(34:09):
them and I'm creatingprogrammes, bodies of work to
resist them, and they inspire mein so many ways I can manage
this. This is, this is thebeauty of when you actually
critique and look at thesestructures, you realise that
(34:34):
they're nothing without us. It'salmost like, yeah, yeah.
Sometimes I feel
I just feel really emboldened,actually, I feel really
emboldened to do the work that Ineed to do, and that's because
(34:55):
that has been reignited in mebecause of the rise of. Of the
far right?
Yeah, yeah, it's the necessity,and that becomes so compelling,
and there lies more courage
and that that's exactly where westarted off from,
birthplace of my burnoutrecovery,
(35:17):
and because those places ofvulnerability, of being
threatened, of being put in whatmay feel like the weakest
position, whether it's in theworkplace, whether it's even in
the home, there are so manydifferent forces, but at the
same time, how we move fromthose positions, however small
(35:41):
those steps are, therefore areacquiring courage, and it's only
the act of being underminedwhich, in itself, is another
form of aggression that we don'talways understand, that we are
actually drawing on Courage,whether it's personal or whether
it's an ancestral example,you're right,
(36:04):
and we actually have to takesmall steps first. Sometimes I
refer to baby steps being brave.These small steps, they can be
physical. They could besomething else that seems
insignificant, but they buildmomentum. And as a woman really
(36:26):
walking into woodlands, I've gotwoodland on my doorstep, and I
can see it from my bedroomwindow, which is probably why I
don't go into the woods enough,because it's just there, but
it's actually very important asa woman to feel a lot of women
don't go into woods because ofthe threat of male aggression,
(36:50):
yeah. So I feel really bravedoing that, and I feel proud of
myself for taking, you know, the200 steps from my doorstep into
the woodland, and that's justset me up for the day, because
I am brave. We are all brave,
(37:10):
especially disabled
women. Yeah, absolutely. Andwhat we're consistently talking
about is movement, theimportance of movement, whether
it's walking, particularlyimportant is the role of dance.
It's been significant in yourpersonal recovery. It's hugely
(37:30):
core to workshops, or perhapsyou'd say play shops that you
that you deliver. There's suchinspiration in this emphasis on
dance and on movement, howrhythm is relating to healing or
to mindfulness, I wondered if itwas something you'd like to talk
(37:55):
more about. I'm reallyinterested in how you've drawn
on Josephine Baker as oneexample, and also the fabulous
Chicago Hiplet ballerinas,because you're drawing on those
different sources of ancestraldance, or African American, you
know, perhaps more modern dance,I wondered how, how this
(38:18):
emphasis on movement isinforming your approach to
healing.
Yes, movement is so important,music and rhythm, it's it's
vital, and absolutely they myinvolvement and my ability to
(38:41):
put myself into studio spaceswith professional dancers and
learn from them has been soimportant to my burnout recovery
and also to process pasttraumas, and that's something I
do bring into my play shops.There's always music, there's
(39:03):
always room to move freely andand also, I can see myself
partnering with, actually, oneof my past collaborators, an
incredible dance choreographer,historian, lecturer, Amina
makula, she's based in KampalaUganda, and she taught me some
(39:31):
Ugandan dance steps during my arttherapy residency. I'm
of the belief that the oppositeof freedom is stagnation. It's
we're not meant to be on ourown. We're meant to be in
movement and honouring ourrhythms together with others. So
(39:53):
it's just a natural part oflife, and something probably
take for granted that I haveaccess to so many incredible
dance tutors and leaders,actually.
So yes, I honour them in myartwork, because
it's dancing is a form of healing, and it's an incredible
(40:17):
technology that I'm so proud of,especially as an African where
drumming is so important and hasjust brought people together,
and it's a way of communicatingas well. Without language, we
don't always have the words tosay how we feel, but through
(40:38):
dance, which I encourageinterpretive forms as well. We
can, we can be more ofourselves. And for me, it's been
a way for me to practice, tolearn tradition, but also to
remix. That's actually quite animportant statement for me as
(41:00):
somebody in the diaspora, I aminterested in tradition, but
it's also important for me topractice choosing my own steps
and to decide what's important,what's right for me, and to have
confidence in sharing a new wayof doing things, and perhaps
(41:22):
that relates to me being selftaught as an artist, or both
self taught and communitytaught. That's just to say I
didn't go to you to art school.I chose all of the people I
wanted to learn from and sortthem out. But that's my that's
essentially my practice. I'mreally trying to feel what's
(41:43):
right for me, and I'm alsofascinated to encourage other
people to choose their own youknow, layer, layer, art
practices in their own way, ifthat makes sense for them. And
maybe that's also why I'mobsessed with collage. It's just
there's an infinite choiceavailable
(42:04):
to people, to myself,
and it also has such a clearemphasis on intention, on
intentional movement. So I thinkif we were drilling this down,
it would be recognising theimportance and the value of
taking time, as you'veemphasised from the beginning,
(42:27):
the importance of rest of space,to be intentional, to interpret,
perhaps how your body feelsthrough dance or through
movement, to improve therelationship we have with our
own minds. I'm
so glad that you listen verywell.
(42:48):
I sometimes have an inner voicethat says, Birungi, your
practice is so diverse and wideranging, and does it make sense
to anyone? But you summarisedthose beginning steps really
beautifully, because I am who Iam, because I've taken the time
(43:09):
to understand myself through mysenses, regaining my sensory
capacity, and that's whymindfulness is so important to
me, and materiality, and then Iget to actually tune into
myself, which, funnily enough,brings me out into the world
like I've been able to create anincredible galaxy of networks
(43:35):
and spaces that I get to playin, because play is universal.
We all need to play yeah
and discover so yes.
And I think it's so distinctwhen, if anyone is to look at
(43:56):
not just your artwork, but thekinds of play shops that you
deliver, the meaning involved inevery choice that you make is
always very clearly culturallyrooted. The purpose is always
very clear in terms of yourdelivery that has such
distinction. And I imagine thatas a researcher, or the evidence
(44:21):
that can be taken from yourresearch through the delivery of
your work, can be very impactfulin terms of futures, or
specifically black futures, andthe care in our futures, I
wondered If this might relatespecifically to your current
residency with the Nubian lifeResource Centre. I think this
(44:47):
looks like a really significantopportunity to develop care,
particularly working withelderly people. I understand
this is Black and Asian elders,but. Perhaps you can take that
that story further for thelisteners.
Sure the Imperial Healthcharity have funded me,
(45:11):
commissioned me to deliver aplay shop programme with Nubian
Life Resource Centre, as you'vesaid, they are based in
Shepherd's Bush, and it's justthe most loveliest space I get
to,
I'm called The Art Girl.
(45:33):
Everyone's like when are you comingback. So nice. So my form of
research, I would say for thatgroup, has been quite, what have
I found out? Basically, Ideliver the art play shops. I
deliver, you know, create thesefun programmes to do these fun
(45:53):
play shops, and we make fun andwe laugh and we share stories,
and I get to learn about what itis that they like to do, and
often they tell me that theyjust haven't had the opportunity
to do anything like this fordecades. So it's really glorious
to offer that, and then
(46:18):
it's hard to put into words
what I've gleaned in because Ihaven't gone in with a clear
focus as to this, is what I wantto learn. It's the research I've
been doing also in this season,has been with the Black Women
Kindness Initiative. So withthem, I had the clear intention,
(46:43):
and that was funded by Race onthe Agenda a race Think Tank. So
I have researched the impact ofan art and mindfulness well
being programme on black womenin red bridge. And I've had,
I've observed them and post theworkshops. I've gathered lots of
(47:10):
Intel, and we're still havingsome conversations. But what
I've been told is that havingthis eight part programme has
been, you know, a highlight forthe year. It's been the only
space for some women to relaxfrom their caring duties. It's
(47:34):
been a place where women havefelt safe to release in that the
women are saying that they'vemet new versions of themselves
by having this opportunity toexplore creative writing,
floristry, performance andpoetry writing. It's the
(47:55):
consistent, consistent effort ofturning up and being vulnerable
and learning a new skill, butalso being reminded of all the
times that you've beenunfortunately been told that you
weren't good at something. A lotof people have art school trauma
or art class trauma, andactually it really impacts them
(48:18):
in their day to day lives, evenin their 40s, 50s and 60s, and
having creating a safe space forblack women to explore
creativity has created a newlease of life for these women,
and it's been so such a hugeprivilege To have witnessed, to
(48:39):
have participated, to havefacilitated, and also, now I'm
in the write up of thisresearch.
Yeah, so you can share the keyfindings. So what stands out to
me is whether you're working inthese spaces, specifically for
black women to heal and to findthemselves, for example, or, as
(49:00):
we were just mentioning with theNubian Centre, working with
elders, what you seem to bedrawing out successfully with
any of these groups is a returnto joy as well, whether that's
through play, whether it'sthrough the permission to find
joy. Because, as you've noticedoften these are people that may
(49:24):
have lived through some uglyviolence or experienced racism,
for example, but you are able toexplore song or sensory memory,
or through weaving and tellingstories, you seem to be enabling
joy as part of people'srecovery.
(49:44):
I'm incredibly proud. And Ithink on top of everything you
said, is that what's importantis that I'm, before we were
recording, I said, I'm aworkaholic in recovery. Yeah.
And I am healing, and also I amalso enough like I've realised
(50:06):
that I can deliver. I can createspaces where black people, black
women in particular, can feelsafe enough to remember who they
are, and drop for guard, dropthem, you know, unmask, put down
that shield, put down thatspear,
(50:30):
soften and remember who theyreally are.
And I can do all of that whilstI battle my own anxieties and
insecurities. I think we don'thave to. There's no end goal of
perfect healedness, becauseunfortunately, there is no post
(50:53):
trauma, especially in thesetimes. We just have to keep
recovering and healing andgrowing and being inspired. You
know, our creativity is what'sgoing to save us. And yes, the
joy is here. I'm really pleasedthat you can see the thread and
(51:17):
you've allowed me to reflect onmy the past four years of this
work.
Good. That was wonderful. Yeah,
I've really benefited from thisconversation with you.
Oh, that's that's very, verygood to hear, and listeners will
hopefully benefit from yourideas and take up the approaches
(51:41):
that you're using andrecommending. Of course, I will
sign post your website on yourepisode page, because I'm sure
people would like to follow upon these ideas and try out
different approaches themselves,whether it's personally or
professionally. I wonderactually, what you might imagine
will be reflected in thecollaborative artwork. I
(52:05):
understand that's going to becreated for permanent display at
Charing Cross Hospital inLondon, which is also a museum
to a wealth of artworks. And Iunderstand this is specifically
out of the current residencywith Nubian life any ideas what
that collaborative artwork mightlook like, but also might state
(52:29):
in terms of future care?
Yes, this is something I'mthinking of as I'm halfway
through my programme with theNubian lifers. A few weeks ago,
we had a wonderful play shopwhere we made these shakers so
just made little simplepercussion instruments with
(52:50):
seeds, and them little woodenboxes of seeds, and we we sang
and we danced and, yeah, webecame the Nubian Life as
a band, that workshop that playshop is really important to me,
because that was a play shopthat one of the participants
really enjoyed herself. A lot ofthe play shops are very visual,
(53:12):
but she had glaucoma, so it wasquite painful for her. She just
wasn't really able toparticipate in other activities.
But she really lit up in thatone and one of the last things
that she said to me was we mustcare for each other. And this
client of the Nubian LifeResource Centre was also a nurse
(53:36):
at Charing Cross Hospital, so Ireally want to honour her,
honour her work on her legacy,honour her care. And yeah, I
want to bring the spirit of theNubian lifers into into the
Charing Cross Hospital site, andjust to honour them, I'm I feel
(54:00):
so incredibly fortunate to beable to get to know black
pensioners, because these arethe Windrush generation, and
they have they've seen a lot,they've experienced a lot, and
they deserve all the softnessand comfort so you know, the
(54:23):
things that we love, you know,music, there's always lots of
really good music playing, goodfood, plants. We talk about
plants and nature a lot. I'vegot lots of ideas and and
they've also been making textilepieces, drawings, paintings,
pottery. There'll be a way thatI can weave their works, and my
(54:48):
style of collaging and weavingtogether, the piece will live in
the Nubian life centre, and thenit will be digitalized for the
walls. So it could be. Acorridor, but I really like the
idea of it enveloping people.And I'll be using cloth and
(55:08):
banana fibres. I really want tobring these natural elements
into the hospital.
Yeah, yeah. And would you sayall of these activities that you
embrace, would you say it's alsoencouraging creative curiosity
as part of our healing, whetherit's being more curious about
(55:30):
our cultural roots, ourheritage, or decolonizing our
own lives, being curious aboutwho we are and being able to be
who we really want to be.
Yeah, that's a perfect I thinkthat's been my starting off
(55:50):
point. And really what motivatesme on a day to day basis, I have
often had beliefs and verylimiting, yeah, limiting beliefs
about what I thought I could doand say and feel and react to,
(56:11):
and I've taken time to excavatethem and interrogate them and
actually throw a lot away. SoI'm very curious about what
other people's beliefs are,because often people come into
my play shops and say, I'm notcreative, and how that plays out
(56:33):
in their lives is that's not forme. I can't do that. It makes a
really big difference when youstart to realise that you can be
creative and that you can makechoices, because it it opens up
your world to to so much more.And that's what I find
(56:53):
fascinating. And this is what II straddle. I'm I'm very
interested in in tradition andculture and the past, but I'm
much more driven by what is,what is possible, and we have to
create the future today bytaking these small steps in the
(57:15):
present. And we can't, we can'tkeep everything and expect life
to shift for us. We have to beprepared to to look at ourselves
and see what it what is it thatneeds to change so that I can
get to where I want to be? I'mambitious, and I've almost moved
(57:40):
I've noticed myself say morethat I'm ambitious rather than
I'm dreaming, because I feellike there's an active presence
in being ambitious and dreaming.I don't know. Yeah,
(58:03):
yeah. It's more than perhapsvisualisation or exploring
ideas, but your ambition willhave very clear steps and
purposes and directions that youknow exactly what you're aiming
for. In fact, that's probably agood point to ask about your
future projections, so your workclearly aligns with what people
(58:26):
are increasingly referring to asthe global majority framework.
So in other words, being able tomove away from being
marginalised in western orEurocentric or white
perspectives that, of course,the global majority is
uplifting, cultural practices,worldviews you know that can
(58:49):
represent at least 85% of theglobal population. So as your
work continues to align withthose values. How do you see
that playing out in the choicesyou make next, in your in your
future work?
(59:09):
Hmm, I think I'm just, when yousaid 85% I'm like, Oh, wow. I
don't think I've that's justringing, clanging for me
sometimes.
Yeah, that's one example of ofof what I've read in terms of
how that idea of ofrepositioning away from
referring to ethnic minoritiesand minority groups, which,
(59:33):
again, can go back to what wewere saying earlier about being
undermining, It can beminimising. It can, you know,
take away the power that ispossessed in those groups,
whether it's cultural, whetherit's wisdom or knowledge, but
that actually, collectively,what we refer to as minorities,
(59:55):
or ethnic minorities, is aglobal majority. Global majority
of cultural wealth, of culturalpractices and world views that
shouldn't feel or bemarginalised by dominant Western
practices.
Thank you so much for sharingthat, because it's reaffirmed
(01:00:19):
the potential and reach of mywork, because as a disabled
African woman that is workingclass, I can stretch to so many
people like me and my role, mypurpose, my vision for the
(01:00:41):
future is to support myself andand people who feel aligned to
my work and my principles, tolearn to treat themselves well.
It seems like a small, simplevision, but if we were to treat
ourselves well, and we're 85% ofthe world, that will have huge
(01:01:05):
ripple effects.
Yes, because I saw this mighthave been via LinkedIn, where
you were talking about aninterest in Co-creating a global
school for African diasporicarts. And this was also
alongside wanting to continue todevelop your programmes for
(01:01:26):
black women, supportingcollective trauma resolution,
but always with an emphasis onparticipatory and
multidisciplinary artsprogrammes. So when you look at
those ambitions that you have,and you put that alongside the
global majority framework, thenyour call out is pretty huge.
(01:01:52):
Oh, I'm so glad that you sawthat. So I feel like my life's
work will be to continue toarchive Ugandan dance traditions
and also to collaborate withother cultural practitioners,
academics, sociologists, toshare what these dance
(01:02:17):
traditions and techniques mean,because they're dances for a
reason. They actually teach usabout how to live together and
live in harmony with nature.There's so much that I I've
learned through my few danceexperiences with Amina Makula,
(01:02:38):
and there's 56 tribes in Uganda,and I think there'd be such a
wealth of cultural knowledge ifwe understood the significance
of these movement practices. Sothat's my that's one of my
visions, that I get tocollaborate to archive these
(01:03:01):
dances in an in a platform thatis accessible to the world, and
then also to support a platformthat would help people to
actually learn these dancetechniques so that they can
wherever they are. They get tocome back to their bodies. They
get to hear Ugandan drums. Imean I would the pilot would be
(01:03:24):
Uganda. There's no reason whythis project can't go across
Africa, but I do have to startwhere I am. But I think this is
my life's work, because it wasin the Portico library actually
commissioned me to make a dancefilm, Kiganda dance film, after
(01:03:47):
they exhibited my artworkKiganda dances. And that
process of learning Kigandadance from London and
commissioning this film that wasmade and produced in Uganda was
such a huge catalyst for me, formy health, and it has the
comments on YouTube are endless.People are really craving this
(01:04:12):
connection, and I think it canreally help us Ugandans, us
Africans, and then anybody who'sinterested in music and dance,
African dance and music is a,you know, globally, is a global
phenomenon, so I just need tofigure out how to do that. And
I'm, I'm calling incollaborators to help. This is
(01:04:34):
not a solo activity.
No, I think you really would bein recovery much longer in terms
of being a workaholic if it wasa solo activity. Exactly. So
Birungi, all of these lovelythemes and approaches have
(01:04:54):
really swallowed up our hourvery, very quickly. So I
wondered if. We could finish onthe series question and what
your reflections are, can artsave us?
Yes, art
can save us, because as humanbeings, we we must practice art.
(01:05:15):
It is our human right to towrite, to move, to create music,
to react and to sense. It is thedeprivation of art that makes us
deeply unwell, and we can seethat in the way that actually
(01:05:36):
dance is one of the sectors thathas been defunded quite quickly,
and for, you know, obviousreasons, this is how you get
people to be sedentary and feelmorose and defeated. So we must,
not we must. There is no must.Art can save us, because this
(01:05:57):
is, this is who we are.
It's for everybody. Yeah, yeah.I could only agree. I welcome
all responses, but I could onlyagree with everything you say.
And Birungi, I can only applaudyour courage and kindness. I
understand the idea of couragemay take you a while to sit with
(01:06:22):
and own, probably just out ofbeautiful humility, but
nevertheless, I do applaud yourcourage to have continued to have
gone forward after such adifficult personal experience
with burnout, but also thekindness to translate that
journey into a series ofapproaches that can help so many
(01:06:46):
more people with their ownrecovery and well being and
health. So thank you very muchfor joining me today and to
share all of those ideas.
Thank you so much, Paula, it'sbeen a real pleasure speaking
with you.
Bless you. And for thelisteners, I will sign post
(01:07:06):
Birungi's website so you candiscover more. And please do
share this free to listen serieswherever you can, to help make
the arts all of ours. And thankyou for listening.
Welcome to Can ArtSave Us? The podcast exploring
how the arts can strengthen andeven transform our mental
societal and democratic health.I talk with diverse, award
winning artists about how thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity and why we need thesequalities to confront today's
global epidemics of mentalillness, loneliness,
(00:23):
polarisation of our communitiesand even worldwide conflict. Be
part of this national andinternational conversation. Join
us to discover how the arts canreally help you. My guest today
is Birungi Kawooya, a self taughtBritish Ugandan artist, well-
(00:44):
being researcher and creativefacilitator. Her name Birungi
means 'bringer of good things,'a name deeply rooted in Ugandan
culture. Her art practice is areturn to her heritage,
reconnecting with Ugandanculture, artisanal practices and
the natural environment, has beencentral to her personal
(01:05):
recovery. After a marketingcareer in London left her deeply
burnt out, Birungi turnedtowards art and healing. She
began exploring the trauma sheexperienced as a black, disabled
woman and as a child growing upin London with working class
roots, self care has comethrough creating art with
natural fibres such as palm and banana leaves, embracing Afro
(01:30):
somatic movement and dances ofthe African diaspora whilst
keeping an emphasis on rest andsimply Being enough. Birungi's
work reminds us that care iscultural, creative and communal,
and that healing practices fromthe global majority have long
offered wisdom, balance andrestoration. Her workshops offer
(01:53):
safe healing spaces for blackwomen and non binary people, and
as a true bringer of goodthings, she offers community
care through mindfulness, rootedin African practices, nurturing,
healing and connection. Herspaces of cultural rootedness
are acts of both resistance andrestoration, where Birungi
(02:15):
invites you to dream, rest andheal. Hello, Burundi, and thank
you very much for joining metoday.
Hello Paula. It's a pleasure tobe with you. Bless
you, I really do appreciate youmaking the time. Your output of
care and good things is huge.You're working very, very
(02:37):
consistently, whilst, of course,you have an emphasis on balance
in your own life. And I thoughtit would be really interesting
to start with a striking quotefrom you that might even
surprise listeners when, ofcourse, the work you do is so
accomplished. And it was a quoteI saw stating "People say being
(02:59):
an artist is brave. For me inthose first years, it didn't
feel brave at all. It wassurvival. It was escape from
toxic workplaces that denied myhumanity. It was necessary." And
I found that really striking andinteresting, because you didn't
feel it was brave, yet itappears to be such a strong act
(03:24):
of courage to then find thepathway and develop your
artistic practice in the waythat you have.
Thank you for picking thatquote. I really do feel and
believe that, and I can say thatbecause with the perspective
that I have now in the phasethat I'm in. So when I spoke
(03:46):
about those first few years,those first few years for me,
were me grappling with burnoutand understanding that it's not
the usual depression that I'vehad throughout pretty much my
life, since teenage through myteenage years, through to my 20s
and 30s, that I was experiencingsomething different, and now
(04:09):
that I'm in a different phase ofthis burnout recovery, where I
have more capacity than I've hadin probably decades, I am now
feeling the fear so I know thatI wasn't very, I didn't feel
brave. I didn't, I wasn't actingin a brave way. I was purely
acting on instinct in thosefirst few years. Because if I
(04:33):
could get out of bed and get onthe bus and meet up with some
community dancers in Greenwich,if I could, you know, figure out
how to co produce a danceproduction in Greenwich Park
with incredible artists thatwould support people during the
(04:57):
times they were allowed out in,you know, 2020, 22, during those
covid times, I just if I couldsay yes, then that meant I was I
was good enough, I was healthyenough, but yeah, now I'm
feeling the fear, and I'm reallyappreciating how art helped me,
helped me regain my strength andmy capacity I have now. So it's
(05:20):
a bit of a roundabout process.
Yeah, it's interesting, though,the use of the word fear and the
experience of fear, becausethere's such a close
relationship with vulnerability,feeling fearful and yet that
becoming a springboard for actsof courage, which can be having
(05:42):
the courage to change or to findchange that's pertinent to
recovery, to well being, to yourlife. And I thought it was very
interesting reading about yourreturn to Uganda for a few
months. And actually I think youwere due for some arts funding,
but decided I'm not waiting. I'mgoing to go anyway. And I
(06:06):
wondered if you'd like to sharesome of that with the listeners,
because it seemed such asignificant journey in terms of
how you've become the artist youare today, but with very
specific purposes and approachesto healing.
Sure. So
I was navigating Covid in 2020 Igot a job in March 2020 after
(06:31):
about eight months of I've lostcount of employment. So I got
into work. The world shut down.I was working 12 hour days
because we were a business thatwas highly in demand, and as the
world crumbled, my mental healthalso took a toll, because I am a
(06:53):
human but unfortunately, I havebeen trained to not treat myself
as a human being, so I didn'treally see that. I wasn't going
to keep that pace up. And when Iwas let go in August 2021 and
(07:13):
you know, being managed out fora couple of mistakes after
working intensely hard with verylittle support. I mean, they
went on to hire two people, itshappened before. So I said to
myself this, I can't keep doingthe same thing and expecting a
different result. And I justbegan to imagine what it would
(07:37):
be like to to learn to weavethese palm fibre mats that I
know that my aunts can make inUganda. And I thought, well, I
know it's not just whitesupremacy and ableism that is
working against me in the UK,secularism also has a place. So
(07:58):
how is it that my aunts, whoobviously deal with patriarchy
in the Ugandan context. How isit that they have been able to
maintain their health like, whatis it that they do? What are the
practices in my culture that Icould learn from? What is it
that I haven't been able tolearn because I've been educated
(08:19):
in the Western Way, and art wastaught in a very specific way.
So I began to think and wonderand imagine and romanticise what
it would be like to be able toweave these mats, what it could
do to my mind if I could focusmy hands and sit on these mats.
(08:41):
And that's just where theInkling began once I had that
break from full time work, whichhas been four years now. So that
was the beginning of the idea.And then I thought, well, I want
to learn. I want to learn aboutbanana fibres. We use them in so
many processes in our basketry,which physically and
(09:03):
metaphorically holds so much soimportant. I want to learn about
bark cloth, this incredibleregenerative material that
decorates my home, but I knowwas used as clothing in our
culture, before the cotton tradewas encouraged and Christian
(09:25):
influence really shamed andvilified, the practice of using
bark cloth, as in our day to dayculture, because of its also
links to our death rituals Andthat just spirituality and
ecology that comes with usingand nurturing these trees and
(09:47):
harvesting these materials. Ijust had so many questions, so I
had to go and, you know, I hadworked in the city, so I had
savings and so I said, I'mgoing to go. I can fund this for
three months. But you know, bythe time I submitted that Arts
Council funding application, Ipoured my heart and soul into
(10:09):
what my desires were like. Whocould I be? I want to build this
residency, which I can see nowis an art therapy residency. I
made it to try and resolve thesetraumatic events that have
happened and have reoccurred.And I thought, let me work this
(10:31):
out. Let me look at this, let mefeel this through these
materials in a completelydifferent environment.
And I will fund it. And so
I just moved and nothing wasstopping me, because I have my
mum, I have got my aunt, andI've developed relationships
(10:51):
with with a wonderful curator,Martha Kazungu of the Njabala
Foundation, and sheconnected me to wonderful
practitioners in these naturalfibre arts and crafts, from
academics to researchers toother artists and fashion
(11:16):
designers. Yeah.
I mean, this sounds like areally brave and beautiful
investment at that time, in yourrecovery and in your future. You
know you have to be braveenough, don't you, to decide
whether you're spending yoursavings, whether you're going to
take this new direction and justto be open to those new
(11:38):
possibilities.
Okay, it's so interestinghearing your perspective and
then really sitting with it.Because, you know, I had, I did
sell my flat last year. Youknow, I have made significant
investments, and that's, I don'tregret any of it because I was
(11:59):
investing in my health, becauseI wasn't doing that before. I
was focused on having a properjob and appearing to have it all
and minimising the trauma andthe horror of the workplaces
that I've been in, and just notgiving myself any time to see if
(12:26):
there was, there was anotherpath so I can, I do have to
accept that it was brave. But Ihad spent so long, you know,
since graduated in 20 in 2006 15years of not, not being well,
really, yeah, that is whatinvesting in myself is stands in
(12:47):
contrast to.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Ithink such a significant work
from last year in 2024 was theSpace of Resistance and Renewal
which was installed at theScience Gallery in London. I
wondered if you'd like to sharemore on that for listeners,
because, of course, having justspoken about the time you spent
(13:10):
in Uganda, returning to thosenatural materials traditions,
craft making, I'm reallyinterested in how for you that
helped manifest your in terms ofcreating those structures, which
I understand was specificallyfor rest, repair and resistance.
(13:31):
Sure, I was so over the moon toreceive that commission from the
science gallery, they found theearlier iteration of that work a
space for rest that I made at 32Degrees East in Uganda in 2022
and they asked me to expand it.So what was wonderful about
(13:56):
being able to bring to createthat work in London was that I
was able to bring my culture toLondon, which is where I spend
most of my time. And thesematerials are dazzling, I think,
beyond the symbolism that I putinto the structures these
pyramids, you know, an officialpyramid is a shape that has the
(14:17):
most like perfect integrity. Sothat's why I chose to make
pyramid structures, and then I wove and collaged shield
designs into the sides to again,imbue it with a sense of
protection and resistance to theforces that you know seek to
(14:42):
harm us, which is quiteobviously white supremacy and
capitalism and also ableism,yeah, and it being able to make
the work larger was so importantbecause what I've since learned
through my burnout. Recovery isthat I had to leave this place
(15:03):
of isolation, where I keptwhereas isolated, it's very
important for me to talk aboutmy mental health struggle, my
PTSD, is it even my PTSD?
And I guess when we're inpossession of our own trauma, it
would only make sense to referto my post traumatic stress.
(15:29):
Thank you for hearing me. Ithink what I came to a
realisation today is depression,anxiety, trauma, PTSD, these are
all in reaction to reallyharmful, harmful acts. And I
talk about recovery, but it'shard. It's still hard to say
(15:53):
these are the forces that havecaused me to feel this pain. And
what's important is that I wantto hold space. And I want to I
want people to feel like this,to gather, because there is
strength in us coming together.And that was what was really
important about a Space forResistance and Renewal and then
(16:15):
bringing it back full circle tothe materials that I use, that
I'm obsessed with because theyare regenerative, which is to
say they are harvested from thetrees that do not they're not
felled. They are still living,and because we as the Buganda
(16:39):
have learned to take care of thetree that gives us the bark
cloth and the banana tree theycan continue to thrive and grow.
And that metaphor that act issomething I'm always trying to
learn from and enact. Andactually, as black, disabled
(17:00):
women, we do this all the time,and so maybe that's the bravery
you can see that I sometimestake for granted.
Yeah, I'm always interested inexperiences of bravery and
courage, because, of course,it's very easy to not, perhaps
give ourselves some credit forwhen we're brave enough to make
(17:22):
a change, not because it's abouttrumpet blowing, but because,
unfortunately, we are so oftentoo busy undermining ourselves
in the first place, or feelingso undermined by external forces
or people around us that itbecomes a deprivation we don't
(17:44):
recognise perhaps our ownstrengths or our own values in
terms of how we're trying torecover, in terms of how we're
trying to make positive Change.
Oh, you've touched you'vetouched me there.
Take some time to reflect onthat. If that's useful to you in
(18:06):
any way.
It is useful to me, so much of,
I'll choose my words wisely.
I'm realising. I'm realisingmore and more how brave I am and
the other disabled black womenthat are like me every day. And
(18:29):
trying to, I tried toacknowledge that because that
undermining that you speak of iscan feel very prevalent. And,
yeah, but they don't win. Ithink these are wobbles, and I'm
allowed to this is part of myreclaiming my own humanity, like
(18:52):
it's okay to not be strong andstoic the way I saw my mum, you
know, navigate South East Londonas a single mother with six kids
and having so many siblings andnieces back home and nephews,
(19:13):
and I didn't really see any ofher wobbles and yeah, basically,
she's strong and brave in adifferent way. And I think what
I'm trying to accept is thatit's okay for me to to falter,
because at the end of the day, Iunderstand that at the core, I
(19:38):
am like my grandmother's wildestdream. I don't think she could
have foreseen where I am now,but I know she's so proud of me,
my mother's mother, yeah,
I think 12 kids. So there'srecognition around you,
(19:59):
particularly from yourgrandma, and all of this
translates so well, of course,into your work, not just as
black culturally rooted care,but also where you work
specifically in spaces orcreating liberatory spaces for
black women and non binaryindividuals, where you have an
(20:22):
emphasis on helping people toreconnect with themselves, their
heritage and creativity, whichmay be existing or a new
discovery, even. I wondered ifyou might like to bring to life
as an example of that your workSisters Need Sleep.
(20:45):
Sure that that piece, SistersNeed Sleep birthed a collection,
and the other first Sisters NeedSleep was a piece that I made
that shows three women holdingeach other, one is resting, and
(21:07):
the other two look like they'restanding guard and supporting
her. And I made that piece toit's almost like a future self
portrait. I knew that that'swhat I wanted and needed, and
that I needed to allow myself tobe supported and to stop trying
to be strong and just to keepgoing. But I wasn't there yet
(21:31):
that piece was is so importantto me because it's, it's really
helped me to understand how myart guides me, and also speak
can speak to other women, otherblack women, that understand
that we need to deprogramourselves from just continuing,
(21:53):
just doing everything we've beenasked to do, that We are also
worthy of slowing down andletting ourselves being taken
care of and nurtured.
That piece is very, is verypivotal.
Yeah, absolutely, because Ithink the emphasis on sleep, or
(22:16):
effectively the emphasis onstopping, on having space to
rest as part of self care, aspart of resisting the capitalist
demands of overworking, which sooften translates as a form of
bullying in the workplace, butalso with a lovely emphasis on
(22:38):
having the space through sleepto dream. And I'm really
interested in how you might liketo expand on the importance of
dreaming, and also, again, inrelation to your Ugandan
heritage, -y understanding is inthe pre colonial Buganda
kingdom, dreams were asignificant cultural tool that
(23:01):
would help inform communities oroffering counsel. For example,
you know, there would be adirect social impact from the
interpretations of those dreams.I wondered if, if this was all
something that was informingthis particular work, Sisters
Need Sleep.
I love that piece of researchthat you shared, and that's not
(23:25):
something I have even soughtout, because when I think of
dreaming, when I think of sleep,I think of rest, and I
absolutely advocate and I'm sofascinated in people's what I
call dreams and hopes anddesires. And then you've you
(23:47):
shared that dreams actuallyinformed how the Kingdom of
Buganda, pre colonially, would,yeah, would it would contribute
to society. I feel like I didn'tknow that happened. I'm just
(24:09):
deeply fascinated inunderstanding who and what it is
that I really want. Sometimesdreams can be interpreted and
helpful, and sometimes they,they, they show me what I am
hoping for. Sometimes I can'tmake sense of them. But what I'm
(24:30):
I'm always trying to nurture iswho I really am, because I
just have a sense that I spent abig part of my adulthood. In
reaction to and I'm just tryingto get back to the core of who I
(24:52):
am, outside of any of thesemarkers. So even being of the
descended from the kingdom ofBuganda. That is my identity I
would love, sometimes I say Ican't wait until I'm just a
being, because even being awoman, even being black, like
(25:15):
all of these are labels, and I'mnot, and I'm acting in reaction
to what these labels, whatpeople think that these beings
should be doing? You know, as awoman, I should be doing this as
a disabled person, I should bedoing that as a black person. I
should be doing this. And then,isn't it amazing that I, despite
being black and disabled as awoman or as a woman from
(25:37):
Buganda, that I'm doing this?Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely. Because Ithink you know, similarly,
actually, in other interviewswhere I've spoken to other black
women artists who also talkabout decolonializing
(25:57):
themselves, their own personallife and world, because it's
dropping those labels, thoseexpectations, stereotypes, and
reclaiming, not only your ownheritage, but if you like, a
whole new starting point that'sfree of all those kind of
(26:20):
imposed ideas.
You're absolutely right, and I'mglad that that echoes. And
that's, you know, I'm incrediblyproud to be a black, disabled
woman from South London, andjust one day, one day those
(26:41):
labels won't matter. Yeah, Ithink this is why there's a
piece that I've made, a futureself portrait I've made where I
suggest I'm flying. Yes, there'sthat feeling of anything is
possible, and that's what I wantfor myself, as I want for
(27:03):
everybody to not let us be heldback in any way. Because what
would the what could the worldlook like
if we had everything we needed,which is
black feminist black feminisms,Black Liberation theory. You
know, those are the conditionsthat we would have if we
(27:24):
actually treated people aspeople treated nature in
accordance to nature's laws,everybody would get what they
needed. And then where would webe if we could not act from a
place of survival, and just, youknow, be truly free.
(27:46):
And I think the piece you'retalking about, if I'm correct,
is, Fly, Birungi, Fly? Correct.Yeah, yeah. So, would, would
you mind illustrating that alittle more for the listeners,
because there's such aninteresting breakdown of of
everything that you've put intothat portrait and into that
projection, if you like, of yourof your future self. It really
(28:10):
relates to how you've beeninfluenced, of course, by your
Ugandan heritage, and thechoices you've made in that
portrait are all verysignificant choices or symbols.
Perhaps you could illustratethat further for the listeners,
sure.
So in this piece, it thebackdrop is black. I'm using
(28:35):
black cloth. And this was black.Bark cloth has been dyed black.
The natural colour of bark clothis that rich brown. So I don't
think I even grew up with anyblack cloth at home. So I was
really excited to find thatpiece. And I thought, well, this
is what the future will willlook like, the colour black
(28:58):
because of my political identityand also of the infinite nature
of black, kind of reminiscent ofgalaxies, just all the myriad of
possibilities. That's why Ichose the black cloth. And then
in this piece, my future self isstanding upright with a spear in
(29:25):
her hand and a dancing skirt ather waist, and also holding on
to a shield. It's by her side,and it's very, very, very
faintly outlined. So that's forme to the emphasis is that the
(29:47):
protection is there, but I'm nolonger anticipating attack. It's
just there. I think that's quitesignificant in terms of my past
and present portrait. It's, soI'm, I'm strong, I am dancing,
(30:08):
so I've got the dancing skirt,and there's a levitation in the
feet. You can just, it's,there's, there's a myriad of
possibilities.
And would you say renewed aswell? Are you seeing yourself as
renewed, regenerated in the sameway, for example, the practice
(30:28):
of using banana skins aroundtrees help, help regenerate?
Yes, yes, you you've doneexcellent research.
You've done excellent work, soit's only reflecting such
interesting work.
Yes, yes. So yeah. So I've usedthe banana fibre, which is like
(30:50):
the bark bit of the banana tree,and the banana leaves when they
are harvesting bark cloth fromfig tree the omatuba tree, they
wrap banana leaves around thattrunk, and then that heals. And
(31:10):
absolutely the whole collectionmy past, present and future self
portraits, I move through statesof attack in the past and fear
to recovery in the present, tostrength and victory and
possibility in the future. Andtime is is not linear,
(31:35):
and I recently, I found myself
feeling feelings of fear thatare reminiscent to past
experiences, but I know I'vecome so far, and I know I've
experienced this before, and soI went through the feelings that
I remembered, but I've done thisbefore. I know I can recover, I
(31:55):
know I can move, I know I candance, I know I can sing, I know
I can fight back. I know I canspeak up for myself. I know I
can choose a different path. Iliterally recently went through
the whole cycle again, and Iactually reference, as we are
(32:16):
aware, there is a rise of thefar right is rising. Fascist
movements are rising. A lot offear is being pumped into
immigrant communities in the UKand across Europe and across the
US, and that is designed to takeits toll. And then last week, I
(32:43):
was shook. I was deeplyemotional, just unsure if what
I'm doing is worthwhile andmaking an impact, and just, can
I? Can I keep this up? And thenI remembered, I haven't been
walking enough. I haven't beenmoving. And it's really my
(33:05):
movement practice that helps mebe able to create these visions
and artworks that guided me tothe woman I am today. And I've
walked past in my neighbourhood.I've walked past England flags,
and I've decided that I willsalute them. I will acknowledge
(33:27):
them, and the act of walking inthe sunshine to music I love,
I'm feel proud to take up spacein my neighbourhood, and I've
decided the England flag, whilstsometimes it can scare me. You
know, that's not that is alsothe truth. I've decided I'm not
(33:49):
going to stay inside, and I'vedecided I'm not going to not say
white inferiority or capitalistexploitation or ableism like
these are real structures. Andby the mere fact that I can name
(34:09):
them and I'm creatingprogrammes, bodies of work to
resist them, and they inspire mein so many ways I can manage
this. This is, this is thebeauty of when you actually
critique and look at thesestructures, you realise that
(34:34):
they're nothing without us. It'salmost like, yeah, yeah.
Sometimes I feel
I just feel really emboldened,actually, I feel really
emboldened to do the work that Ineed to do, and that's because
(34:55):
that has been reignited in mebecause of the rise of. Of the
far right?
Yeah, yeah, it's the necessity,and that becomes so compelling,
and there lies more courage
and that that's exactly where westarted off from,
birthplace of my burnoutrecovery,
(35:17):
and because those places ofvulnerability, of being
threatened, of being put in whatmay feel like the weakest
position, whether it's in theworkplace, whether it's even in
the home, there are so manydifferent forces, but at the
same time, how we move fromthose positions, however small
(35:41):
those steps are, therefore areacquiring courage, and it's only
the act of being underminedwhich, in itself, is another
form of aggression that we don'talways understand, that we are
actually drawing on Courage,whether it's personal or whether
it's an ancestral example,you're right,
(36:04):
and we actually have to takesmall steps first. Sometimes I
refer to baby steps being brave.These small steps, they can be
physical. They could besomething else that seems
insignificant, but they buildmomentum. And as a woman really
(36:26):
walking into woodlands, I've gotwoodland on my doorstep, and I
can see it from my bedroomwindow, which is probably why I
don't go into the woods enough,because it's just there, but
it's actually very important asa woman to feel a lot of women
don't go into woods because ofthe threat of male aggression,
(36:50):
yeah. So I feel really bravedoing that, and I feel proud of
myself for taking, you know, the200 steps from my doorstep into
the woodland, and that's justset me up for the day, because
I am brave. We are all brave,
(37:10):
especially disabled
women. Yeah, absolutely. Andwhat we're consistently talking
about is movement, theimportance of movement, whether
it's walking, particularlyimportant is the role of dance.
It's been significant in yourpersonal recovery. It's hugely
(37:30):
core to workshops, or perhapsyou'd say play shops that you
that you deliver. There's suchinspiration in this emphasis on
dance and on movement, howrhythm is relating to healing or
to mindfulness, I wondered if itwas something you'd like to talk
(37:55):
more about. I'm reallyinterested in how you've drawn
on Josephine Baker as oneexample, and also the fabulous
Chicago Hiplet ballerinas,because you're drawing on those
different sources of ancestraldance, or African American, you
know, perhaps more modern dance,I wondered how, how this
(38:18):
emphasis on movement isinforming your approach to
healing.
Yes, movement is so important,music and rhythm, it's it's
vital, and absolutely they myinvolvement and my ability to
(38:41):
put myself into studio spaceswith professional dancers and
learn from them has been soimportant to my burnout recovery
and also to process pasttraumas, and that's something I
do bring into my play shops.There's always music, there's
(39:03):
always room to move freely andand also, I can see myself
partnering with, actually, oneof my past collaborators, an
incredible dance choreographer,historian, lecturer, Amina
makula, she's based in KampalaUganda, and she taught me some
(39:31):
Ugandan dance steps during my arttherapy residency. I'm
of the belief that the oppositeof freedom is stagnation. It's
we're not meant to be on ourown. We're meant to be in
movement and honouring ourrhythms together with others. So
(39:53):
it's just a natural part oflife, and something probably
take for granted that I haveaccess to so many incredible
dance tutors and leaders,actually.
So yes, I honour them in myartwork, because
it's dancing is a form of healing, and it's an incredible
(40:17):
technology that I'm so proud of,especially as an African where
drumming is so important and hasjust brought people together,
and it's a way of communicatingas well. Without language, we
don't always have the words tosay how we feel, but through
(40:38):
dance, which I encourageinterpretive forms as well. We
can, we can be more ofourselves. And for me, it's been
a way for me to practice, tolearn tradition, but also to
remix. That's actually quite animportant statement for me as
(41:00):
somebody in the diaspora, I aminterested in tradition, but
it's also important for me topractice choosing my own steps
and to decide what's important,what's right for me, and to have
confidence in sharing a new wayof doing things, and perhaps
(41:22):
that relates to me being selftaught as an artist, or both
self taught and communitytaught. That's just to say I
didn't go to you to art school.I chose all of the people I
wanted to learn from and sortthem out. But that's my that's
essentially my practice. I'mreally trying to feel what's
(41:43):
right for me, and I'm alsofascinated to encourage other
people to choose their own youknow, layer, layer, art
practices in their own way, ifthat makes sense for them. And
maybe that's also why I'mobsessed with collage. It's just
there's an infinite choiceavailable
(42:04):
to people, to myself,
and it also has such a clearemphasis on intention, on
intentional movement. So I thinkif we were drilling this down,
it would be recognising theimportance and the value of
taking time, as you'veemphasised from the beginning,
(42:27):
the importance of rest of space,to be intentional, to interpret,
perhaps how your body feelsthrough dance or through
movement, to improve therelationship we have with our
own minds. I'm
so glad that you listen verywell.
(42:48):
I sometimes have an inner voicethat says, Birungi, your
practice is so diverse and wideranging, and does it make sense
to anyone? But you summarisedthose beginning steps really
beautifully, because I am who Iam, because I've taken the time
(43:09):
to understand myself through mysenses, regaining my sensory
capacity, and that's whymindfulness is so important to
me, and materiality, and then Iget to actually tune into
myself, which, funnily enough,brings me out into the world
like I've been able to create anincredible galaxy of networks
(43:35):
and spaces that I get to playin, because play is universal.
We all need to play yeah
and discover so yes.
And I think it's so distinctwhen, if anyone is to look at
(43:56):
not just your artwork, but thekinds of play shops that you
deliver, the meaning involved inevery choice that you make is
always very clearly culturallyrooted. The purpose is always
very clear in terms of yourdelivery that has such
distinction. And I imagine thatas a researcher, or the evidence
(44:21):
that can be taken from yourresearch through the delivery of
your work, can be very impactfulin terms of futures, or
specifically black futures, andthe care in our futures, I
wondered If this might relatespecifically to your current
residency with the Nubian lifeResource Centre. I think this
(44:47):
looks like a really significantopportunity to develop care,
particularly working withelderly people. I understand
this is Black and Asian elders,but. Perhaps you can take that
that story further for thelisteners.
Sure the Imperial Healthcharity have funded me,
(45:11):
commissioned me to deliver aplay shop programme with Nubian
Life Resource Centre, as you'vesaid, they are based in
Shepherd's Bush, and it's justthe most loveliest space I get
to,
I'm called The Art Girl.
(45:33):
Everyone's like when are you comingback. So nice. So my form of
research, I would say for thatgroup, has been quite, what have
I found out? Basically, Ideliver the art play shops. I
deliver, you know, create thesefun programmes to do these fun
(45:53):
play shops, and we make fun andwe laugh and we share stories,
and I get to learn about what itis that they like to do, and
often they tell me that theyjust haven't had the opportunity
to do anything like this fordecades. So it's really glorious
to offer that, and then
(46:18):
it's hard to put into words
what I've gleaned in because Ihaven't gone in with a clear
focus as to this, is what I wantto learn. It's the research I've
been doing also in this season,has been with the Black Women
Kindness Initiative. So withthem, I had the clear intention,
(46:43):
and that was funded by Race onthe Agenda a race Think Tank. So
I have researched the impact ofan art and mindfulness well
being programme on black womenin red bridge. And I've had,
I've observed them and post theworkshops. I've gathered lots of
(47:10):
Intel, and we're still havingsome conversations. But what
I've been told is that havingthis eight part programme has
been, you know, a highlight forthe year. It's been the only
space for some women to relaxfrom their caring duties. It's
(47:34):
been a place where women havefelt safe to release in that the
women are saying that they'vemet new versions of themselves
by having this opportunity toexplore creative writing,
floristry, performance andpoetry writing. It's the
(47:55):
consistent, consistent effort ofturning up and being vulnerable
and learning a new skill, butalso being reminded of all the
times that you've beenunfortunately been told that you
weren't good at something. A lotof people have art school trauma
or art class trauma, andactually it really impacts them
(48:18):
in their day to day lives, evenin their 40s, 50s and 60s, and
having creating a safe space forblack women to explore
creativity has created a newlease of life for these women,
and it's been so such a hugeprivilege To have witnessed, to
(48:39):
have participated, to havefacilitated, and also, now I'm
in the write up of thisresearch.
Yeah, so you can share the keyfindings. So what stands out to
me is whether you're working inthese spaces, specifically for
black women to heal and to findthemselves, for example, or, as
(49:00):
we were just mentioning with theNubian Centre, working with
elders, what you seem to bedrawing out successfully with
any of these groups is a returnto joy as well, whether that's
through play, whether it'sthrough the permission to find
joy. Because, as you've noticedoften these are people that may
(49:24):
have lived through some uglyviolence or experienced racism,
for example, but you are able toexplore song or sensory memory,
or through weaving and tellingstories, you seem to be enabling
joy as part of people'srecovery.
(49:44):
I'm incredibly proud. And Ithink on top of everything you
said, is that what's importantis that I'm, before we were
recording, I said, I'm aworkaholic in recovery. Yeah.
And I am healing, and also I amalso enough like I've realised
(50:06):
that I can deliver. I can createspaces where black people, black
women in particular, can feelsafe enough to remember who they
are, and drop for guard, dropthem, you know, unmask, put down
that shield, put down thatspear,
(50:30):
soften and remember who theyreally are.
And I can do all of that whilstI battle my own anxieties and
insecurities. I think we don'thave to. There's no end goal of
perfect healedness, becauseunfortunately, there is no post
(50:53):
trauma, especially in thesetimes. We just have to keep
recovering and healing andgrowing and being inspired. You
know, our creativity is what'sgoing to save us. And yes, the
joy is here. I'm really pleasedthat you can see the thread and
(51:17):
you've allowed me to reflect onmy the past four years of this
work.
Good. That was wonderful. Yeah,
I've really benefited from thisconversation with you.
Oh, that's that's very, verygood to hear, and listeners will
hopefully benefit from yourideas and take up the approaches
(51:41):
that you're using andrecommending. Of course, I will
sign post your website on yourepisode page, because I'm sure
people would like to follow upon these ideas and try out
different approaches themselves,whether it's personally or
professionally. I wonderactually, what you might imagine
will be reflected in thecollaborative artwork. I
(52:05):
understand that's going to becreated for permanent display at
Charing Cross Hospital inLondon, which is also a museum
to a wealth of artworks. And Iunderstand this is specifically
out of the current residencywith Nubian life any ideas what
that collaborative artwork mightlook like, but also might state
(52:29):
in terms of future care?
Yes, this is something I'mthinking of as I'm halfway
through my programme with theNubian lifers. A few weeks ago,
we had a wonderful play shopwhere we made these shakers so
just made little simplepercussion instruments with
(52:50):
seeds, and them little woodenboxes of seeds, and we we sang
and we danced and, yeah, webecame the Nubian Life as
a band, that workshop that playshop is really important to me,
because that was a play shopthat one of the participants
really enjoyed herself. A lot ofthe play shops are very visual,
(53:12):
but she had glaucoma, so it wasquite painful for her. She just
wasn't really able toparticipate in other activities.
But she really lit up in thatone and one of the last things
that she said to me was we mustcare for each other. And this
client of the Nubian LifeResource Centre was also a nurse
(53:36):
at Charing Cross Hospital, so Ireally want to honour her,
honour her work on her legacy,honour her care. And yeah, I
want to bring the spirit of theNubian lifers into into the
Charing Cross Hospital site, andjust to honour them, I'm I feel
(54:00):
so incredibly fortunate to beable to get to know black
pensioners, because these arethe Windrush generation, and
they have they've seen a lot,they've experienced a lot, and
they deserve all the softnessand comfort so you know, the
(54:23):
things that we love, you know,music, there's always lots of
really good music playing, goodfood, plants. We talk about
plants and nature a lot. I'vegot lots of ideas and and
they've also been making textilepieces, drawings, paintings,
pottery. There'll be a way thatI can weave their works, and my
(54:48):
style of collaging and weavingtogether, the piece will live in
the Nubian life centre, and thenit will be digitalized for the
walls. So it could be. Acorridor, but I really like the
idea of it enveloping people.And I'll be using cloth and
(55:08):
banana fibres. I really want tobring these natural elements
into the hospital.
Yeah, yeah. And would you sayall of these activities that you
embrace, would you say it's alsoencouraging creative curiosity
as part of our healing, whetherit's being more curious about
(55:30):
our cultural roots, ourheritage, or decolonizing our
own lives, being curious aboutwho we are and being able to be
who we really want to be.
Yeah, that's a perfect I thinkthat's been my starting off
(55:50):
point. And really what motivatesme on a day to day basis, I have
often had beliefs and verylimiting, yeah, limiting beliefs
about what I thought I could doand say and feel and react to,
(56:11):
and I've taken time to excavatethem and interrogate them and
actually throw a lot away. SoI'm very curious about what
other people's beliefs are,because often people come into
my play shops and say, I'm notcreative, and how that plays out
(56:33):
in their lives is that's not forme. I can't do that. It makes a
really big difference when youstart to realise that you can be
creative and that you can makechoices, because it it opens up
your world to to so much more.And that's what I find
(56:53):
fascinating. And this is what II straddle. I'm I'm very
interested in in tradition andculture and the past, but I'm
much more driven by what is,what is possible, and we have to
create the future today bytaking these small steps in the
(57:15):
present. And we can't, we can'tkeep everything and expect life
to shift for us. We have to beprepared to to look at ourselves
and see what it what is it thatneeds to change so that I can
get to where I want to be? I'mambitious, and I've almost moved
(57:40):
I've noticed myself say morethat I'm ambitious rather than
I'm dreaming, because I feellike there's an active presence
in being ambitious and dreaming.I don't know. Yeah,
(58:03):
yeah. It's more than perhapsvisualisation or exploring
ideas, but your ambition willhave very clear steps and
purposes and directions that youknow exactly what you're aiming
for. In fact, that's probably agood point to ask about your
future projections, so your workclearly aligns with what people
(58:26):
are increasingly referring to asthe global majority framework.
So in other words, being able tomove away from being
marginalised in western orEurocentric or white
perspectives that, of course,the global majority is
uplifting, cultural practices,worldviews you know that can
(58:49):
represent at least 85% of theglobal population. So as your
work continues to align withthose values. How do you see
that playing out in the choicesyou make next, in your in your
future work?
(59:09):
Hmm, I think I'm just, when yousaid 85% I'm like, Oh, wow. I
don't think I've that's justringing, clanging for me
sometimes.
Yeah, that's one example of ofof what I've read in terms of
how that idea of ofrepositioning away from
referring to ethnic minoritiesand minority groups, which,
(59:33):
again, can go back to what wewere saying earlier about being
undermining, It can beminimising. It can, you know,
take away the power that ispossessed in those groups,
whether it's cultural, whetherit's wisdom or knowledge, but
that actually, collectively,what we refer to as minorities,
(59:55):
or ethnic minorities, is aglobal majority. Global majority
of cultural wealth, of culturalpractices and world views that
shouldn't feel or bemarginalised by dominant Western
practices.
Thank you so much for sharingthat, because it's reaffirmed
(01:00:19):
the potential and reach of mywork, because as a disabled
African woman that is workingclass, I can stretch to so many
people like me and my role, mypurpose, my vision for the
(01:00:41):
future is to support myself andand people who feel aligned to
my work and my principles, tolearn to treat themselves well.
It seems like a small, simplevision, but if we were to treat
ourselves well, and we're 85% ofthe world, that will have huge
(01:01:05):
ripple effects.
Yes, because I saw this mighthave been via LinkedIn, where
you were talking about aninterest in Co-creating a global
school for African diasporicarts. And this was also
alongside wanting to continue todevelop your programmes for
(01:01:26):
black women, supportingcollective trauma resolution,
but always with an emphasis onparticipatory and
multidisciplinary artsprogrammes. So when you look at
those ambitions that you have,and you put that alongside the
global majority framework, thenyour call out is pretty huge.
(01:01:52):
Oh, I'm so glad that you sawthat. So I feel like my life's
work will be to continue toarchive Ugandan dance traditions
and also to collaborate withother cultural practitioners,
academics, sociologists, toshare what these dance
(01:02:17):
traditions and techniques mean,because they're dances for a
reason. They actually teach usabout how to live together and
live in harmony with nature.There's so much that I I've
learned through my few danceexperiences with Amina Makula,
(01:02:38):
and there's 56 tribes in Uganda,and I think there'd be such a
wealth of cultural knowledge ifwe understood the significance
of these movement practices. Sothat's my that's one of my
visions, that I get tocollaborate to archive these
(01:03:01):
dances in an in a platform thatis accessible to the world, and
then also to support a platformthat would help people to
actually learn these dancetechniques so that they can
wherever they are. They get tocome back to their bodies. They
get to hear Ugandan drums. Imean I would the pilot would be
(01:03:24):
Uganda. There's no reason whythis project can't go across
Africa, but I do have to startwhere I am. But I think this is
my life's work, because it wasin the Portico library actually
commissioned me to make a dancefilm, Kiganda dance film, after
(01:03:47):
they exhibited my artworkKiganda dances. And that
process of learning Kigandadance from London and
commissioning this film that wasmade and produced in Uganda was
such a huge catalyst for me, formy health, and it has the
comments on YouTube are endless.People are really craving this
(01:04:12):
connection, and I think it canreally help us Ugandans, us
Africans, and then anybody who'sinterested in music and dance,
African dance and music is a,you know, globally, is a global
phenomenon, so I just need tofigure out how to do that. And
I'm, I'm calling incollaborators to help. This is
(01:04:34):
not a solo activity.
No, I think you really would bein recovery much longer in terms
of being a workaholic if it wasa solo activity. Exactly. So
Birungi, all of these lovelythemes and approaches have
(01:04:54):
really swallowed up our hourvery, very quickly. So I
wondered if. We could finish onthe series question and what
your reflections are, can artsave us?
Yes, art
can save us, because as humanbeings, we we must practice art.
(01:05:15):
It is our human right to towrite, to move, to create music,
to react and to sense. It is thedeprivation of art that makes us
deeply unwell, and we can seethat in the way that actually
(01:05:36):
dance is one of the sectors thathas been defunded quite quickly,
and for, you know, obviousreasons, this is how you get
people to be sedentary and feelmorose and defeated. So we must,
not we must. There is no must.Art can save us, because this
(01:05:57):
is, this is who we are.
It's for everybody. Yeah, yeah.I could only agree. I welcome
all responses, but I could onlyagree with everything you say.
And Birungi, I can only applaudyour courage and kindness. I
understand the idea of couragemay take you a while to sit with
(01:06:22):
and own, probably just out ofbeautiful humility, but
nevertheless, I do applaud yourcourage to have continued to have
gone forward after such adifficult personal experience
with burnout, but also thekindness to translate that
journey into a series ofapproaches that can help so many
(01:06:46):
more people with their ownrecovery and well being and
health. So thank you very muchfor joining me today and to
share all of those ideas.
Thank you so much, Paula, it'sbeen a real pleasure speaking
with you.
Bless you. And for thelisteners, I will sign post
(01:07:06):
Birungi's website so you candiscover more. And please do
share this free to listen serieswherever you can, to help make
the arts all of ours. And thankyou for listening.
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