Seeing Beyond Masks; Ancient and Social.

Tonye Ekine is one of the top 40 British Rising Stars recognized by the Royal Society of British Artists. He is also recently back from the world renowned, Venice Biennale, where he was selected for a highly prestigious fellowship with the British Council. In its 60th anniversary year, the Venice Biennale attracted half a million visitors to celebrate ground breaking artists from around the world. Tonye has set himself apart from other contemporary African artists with his distinct use of the iconic, Ife Bronze masks in his paintings. Ife is the religious and royal center of the Yoruba people in Nigeria and the masks are exceptional works of art, dating back to the 12th century. Born in Nigeria, Tonye is now based in London and by foregrounding his Yoruba heritage in his contemporary art, he raises questions of identity, the legacy of colonialism, the social masks we wear in everyday life and he isn’t shy of uncomfortable paradox. Tonye’s role as an artist is set to move through the world in different ways taking his identity and roots with him. He says: “There is freedom in expression – and that’s where you find identity.” He’s interested in being part of design, fashion, marketing, brands in communication and education, his openness is refreshing. He prioritises knowledge as currency not economic status. We talk about identity and authenticity, connection as the most important form of validation and optimism. 

Discover Tonye Ekine: www.wherestonye.com/

The Art of PR is the first exhibition to collectively present the work of established and emerging artists from the UK public relations sector, including Tonye Ekine.

Visit the Coningsby Gallery: [e-mail] / 07884 314361

18 November 2024–23 November 2024

www.coningsbygallery.com/exhibition/the-art-of-pr-november-2024

Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.

Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb

Closed Captions are added to all audio interviews in this series.

Read only, text transcripts of every interview, news, reviews and your host, Paula Moore,  are available here: www.canartsaveus.com

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. PLEASE SHARE THIS FREE TO LISTEN SERIES AND HELP MAKE THE ARTS ALL OF OURS. 

 

 

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to thispodcast series asking the
question, Can art save us? I'mstarting the first national and
international conversation aboutcourage and curiosity. What do
these qualities really mean, andwhy does it make a big
difference to our mental,societal and democratic health?
I talk to award winning anddiverse artists across the arts

(00:24):
to explore these qualities intheir lives and work both to
inspire and for us all to learn.I'm exploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? My

(00:49):
guest today is one of the top 40British rising stars recognized
by the Royal Society of Britishartists. He's also recently back
from the world renowned VeniceBiennale, where he was selected
for a highly prestigiousfellowship with the British
Council in its 60th anniversaryyear, the Venice Biennale

(01:10):
attracted half a millionvisitors to celebrate
groundbreaking artists fromaround the world. Tony ekene has
set himself apart from othercontemporary African artists
with his distinct use of theiconic IFE broms masks in his
paintings, IFE is the religiousand royal center of the Yoruba
people in Nigeria, and the masksare exceptional works of art

(01:34):
dating back to the 12th century.The masks are far beyond any
artistry in Europe or influenceat that time, born in Nigeria,
Tonya is now based in London,and by foregrounding his Yoruba
heritage in his contemporaryart, he raises questions of
identity, the legacy ofcolonialism, the social masks we

(01:55):
wear in everyday life. And heisn't shy of uncomfortable
paradox the title and theme atthe Venice Biennale this year
was foreigners everywhere,presenting how we can all be,
strangers, outsiders,marginalized, displaced,
underrepresented, othered, thestruggle with identity. At the

(02:16):
same time, Tony's role as anartist is set to move through
the world in different ways,taking his identity and roots
with him. He says there isfreedom in expression, and
that's where you find identity.He's interested in being part of
design, fashion, marketing,brands, in communication and

(02:37):
education. He has clear ideasabout entrepreneurship and
prioritizes knowledge ascurrency and not economic
status. Tony is dubbed as one towatch, and I'd say he's one to
try and keep up with, becausepainting is only one part of who
he is. As an artist, for someonewhose time is always dedicated

(02:58):
to his artistic practice, I amdelighted to have Tanya as our
guest today. Hello Tonya andwelcome, hi.
Thank you so much. I'm so happyto be here, and that was such
like an interesting and veryhumbling introduction. Thank you
so much. Like, oh my god, wow.Well, you're welcome.

(03:23):
I sound like I've done a lot,
very seriously. It's not likethat.
I think you have done a lot, butit was, it's been very
interesting, you know, resetresearch in your work. So I'm
really looking forward totalking to you. And I thought an
interesting place to start Tonyawas, I think you came to London

(03:46):
in 2021, so you'd alreadygraduated with a fine art degree
in Nigeria, and then you went toCamberwell College of Arts to do
your Masters in Fine Arts. I wasinterested in you saying, I'll
quote you, that the biggestlesson I learned at Camberwell

(04:08):
was breaking free. And I wasinterested in what that turning
point was. What was thatdevelopment where you felt more
able to be free?
I think it was kind of like whenI went to art school in Nigeria,
I went to, it's called ObafemiAloy University. That's where,
like, it's almost like theheadquarters of, like, the EFA

(04:29):
people, of the Yoruba people inIFE and ilaifa and oyu. Is like,
one of the is the first, andmost like is the most
prestigious, like, let's say,publicly funded school in
Nigeria that is known for, like,art and everything, and it's in
the southwest of Nigeria. Solike the will I say, the ethos

(04:49):
of just learning was very old, Iwon't say old school, but was
very how you think, imagine,like, formal training for the
art. Schools used to be, back inthe day, like you were very
restricted to just the, will Isay, the expressions of art, so
maybe painting, sculpture,textile, ceramics, artistry and

(05:14):
graphic design. That was it.There was nothing. There was no
like exploration of like eithermixing mediums or disciplines
together. It was just veryrestricted. And in that also,
they still had some really goodnorms that I liked, of like
traditional, like art schools,where you were attached to, like
a a master, so you're attachedto like a tutor that has like a

(05:36):
practice, that they see thatyour practice is similar to
theirs. So you work with them inthe studio. You work with them
at exhibitions. You basicallyalmost go to, like this
apprenticeship to too late, likeflow, while you like once you
will, I say once you specifythat you want to go into
painting or graphics or design.So coming to Campbell was kind

(05:58):
of like different, because Iwanted to. I felt like I was
still holding on to, like, howart school was back then. I just
felt like, Okay, this is I'mcoming to London. I'm coming to
see how, like, maybe it isimproved or different. But it
was just like, you're just givenfreedom. And the freedom was
just like, you make your youmake your practice. You discover

(06:21):
your practice. You discover whoyou are. And of course, before
you apply to art schools,everybody needs, like, a lot you
need, like, your art proposalyou apply, and then, like, you
go to, like, screening process.So, like, almost like, refine,
okay, this is what you want outof it, but just that freedom of
like, yeah, just you make orbreak what you have with the

(06:42):
opportunity, I think was justlike it was, it was something
that I really, I really like,will I say appreciated, but
also, like, it was almost like ashock. I was like, Oh, wow. So I
really need to decide that thisis it was almost like, this is
what I need to do. I need todecide, like, what this means to
me, like what my practice isalso just because, like before,

(07:05):
like when I went to art school,I left art like, I graduated
from art school and I went intoadvertising, advertising,
broadcasting on, like, mediagenerally. And I was there for
about nine years, nine to 10years, and I was working there,
and when I now made thetransition back to being an
artist, where I had, like, whatwould say in midlife crisis, I

(07:26):
was like, if I want to live mylife again, what do I want to
be? And I said I wanted to be anartist. So coming back, I
thought I was going to go backto the same process that would
almost Well, I say, Help medefine who I am with, like,
somebody holding my hands, butcamel was just like, jump off a
cliff, figure things out. So ina long run, that's, that's what

(07:49):
it was, that's what it was liketo me, yeah,
yeah. That's, that's reallyinteresting. It touches on quite
a few interesting things,because, of course, you had all
of that career experience inApplied Arts, you know, around
design and PR and media. I wasinterested in a couple of things

(08:10):
around that that actually inyour role now as an artist,
choosing to be an artist. Do youthink that experience actually
helped you, in some ways, tobreak free? Because it also
exists very much in anentrepreneurial space, you know,

(08:32):
where risk can be encouraged,innovative thinking, creative
thinking can be encouraged. Iwondered how much that was
helpful in your work? Now,
I think that's a really goodquestion, because I feel
sometimes I still like, I stillthink about it, like, if I

(08:53):
didn't go, if I just wentstraight into art, maybe, and I
didn't have, like, I didn't gointo applied art, I didn't have
like, a corporate like lifeexperience, would I be doing
what I'm doing? Maybe not. MaybeI will be. I would have just
gone into like because I likeanimation when I was younger,
and I like storytelling. So Ifelt like maybe I would have
gone into either creating likecartoons or like doodlings or

(09:17):
like things related to just likecreating stories. However, my
corporate experience gave me thestoryline of what I'm, what I'm
actually, my work is centeredon, and it was because, like, I
would say, like, I had goodpoints, but I was also scarred
working corporately, and Ididn't know how to navigate just

(09:39):
people's like emotions, likepeople's personas, people's
will. I say people's likeidentities, people's like real
intentions, real emotions. Alsoin that, in that same mirror,
navigating mine, because, as I'mexperiencing this with like,
because once you workcorporately, you know like, it's
just like, how. Know, Like, it'sas simple as somebody saying hi

(10:03):
to you or sending you an email,but you know, in the email,
they're not being nice, they areliterally being very uncensored
and and almost giving you like,the middle finger. It's really
bad. Or like, sometimes umpeople, um people, like, when
you go to like your when you'redoing reviews with like HR, and

(10:25):
you're seeing that as you climbhigher, corporately, you're more
you're not doing what you loveto do. If you like design, or
you like like photography orcreating campaigns, or you like
just like helping with likewriting or just like creating,
like just something, anythingthat you love it more as you
climb higher in any corporatelike environment or industries

(10:48):
about managing people. Andthat's not the for me,
personally, that's not the mostinteresting thing. I feel like
anybody that goes into anyindustry as a purist wants to
keep doing what they fell inlove in that industry for in the
first place. But as you climbhigher, even in politics, you
begin to manage people. I justfelt like, when you now begin to

(11:10):
manage people, is your yourmanaging egos. You have to be
able to read people's, um, readpeople's basically nature, and
be able to use that to for, forthe company or against the
company, or, I don't know if,like, what I'm saying is making
sense.
No, it is making sense becauseit's a diversion, isn't it from

(11:32):
really how you want to fulfillyour your life and role as an
artist. It's a diversion intofulfilling, you know, the
corporate strategy, yeah,
and so I think that realizingthat at a very young age, and
just like rising up within thecorporate ladder to where I was

(11:53):
before I actually left, and alsonavigating relationships with
people that I'd like worked withbusiness and starting up with
ideas. I felt like I I was thischild, that I was this child
that just got scarred about thereality of life, and I was just
like, why are people just notbeing authentic? Why are people
not being themselves? Why arepeople not like they say the

(12:15):
truth is bitter, but I don'tthink it's bitter. I think it's
just the acceptance of the truththat is a hard pill to swallow.
And a lot of times like, I thinkin life, we need to actually
face the truth to be able tomove on. They say sometimes that
when you have difficultconversations, two things happen
you that break away from theperson that you having
conversation with, or you guysentering new debts together in

(12:39):
that relationship, even like inlike, if you have a partner,
when you go through difficultthings to get that either makes
you guys closer or it makes youguys go farther. And when people
go to therapy, you begin touncover the deep, will I say,
conversations that younecessarily didn't confront,
maybe because you didn't havetime or environment. So I was

(13:01):
like, You know what? If I'mgoing back to school and I'm
going back to what I love, whichis art, I want to go back to
what made me fall in love inart, apart from just
storytelling, but it's aboutpeople seeing themselves in the
world, people reflectingthemselves in the work. I used
to remember, like movies that Ilove watching, were movies that

(13:21):
had very heavy dialogs withpeople, just like one camera
panning around between, like thetwo, either the actors just
going back and forth, or justlike, it's starting from a
painting, or like from it'sbeing inspired by, like a song,
and that becomes, like, almost alittle clue that tells you about
the storyline of the narrative.Or just like how when you're

(13:42):
watching a film, you know thatwhen the music begins to tense
or there's a flow, you basicallyalready understand the either
the emotion behind thatparticular scene or scenario. So
I was like, You know what? Iwant to go back to art and be
able to almost, like, createstories that make people reflect
about being better, but tellingthe truth of the reality of what

(14:06):
I see in the world, and kind oflike mirror it back. And I feel
like to answer back to thequestion that you said is like,
if I may have a corporate life,maybe I won't be making this
kind of art. Maybe I'm makingsomething different, but I'm
happy I went through that inreflection now, because, like, I
think that's what's made mystory, very personal, very

(14:27):
stronger, but also relatable.Because, like, I think that a
lot of times, as I see in theart world, going is a lot of
people's work are not, I won'tsay relatable. Is just like it's
losing the the emotionalconnection to feel. And I feel
like I am trying to hold on tothat feeling as much as

(14:50):
possible, if I'm able to makepeople feel through my work, and
I am also feeling through mywork, I think that that's one of
the best things I could I. Yourbirth, or, like, contribute to
the world. And, yeah, and that'swhy I feel like the corporate
world, almost like it was almostlike, showed me my purpose,

(15:11):
helped me my purpose in like,life. So, yeah,
yeah. That's That's reallyinteresting, because, of course,
that decision in your life tobreak away, using the phrase you
just used, to break away fromthat corporate life and to
fulfill your life as an artist,I imagine was a mix of relief

(15:35):
and risk, but with risk comescourage, and also, I think we
build resilience, don't we? Ifwe take a risk, if we're
prepared to explore something orto fulfill something new, we do
start to build our ownresilience. Did you feel that
once you made that decision, youwere at Camberwell, you were

(15:58):
discovering, if you like, thefreedom of your own expression,
that that was really a landmarkin your life, in terms of your
identity and becoming who youare. I think,
I think it became like,
not the major landmark, but oneof the steps that

(16:21):
almost like when you take adecision like it sets in, you
begin to see that, okay, I havetaken this risk. I need to. I
owe it to myself. I owe you topeople that believe in me to
follow this through and see thisum, to whatever end that is. But
also it was like it was healingfor me. And I feel like that's a

(16:48):
lot of things that even to talkto a lot of artists like art is
healing to yourself first,before even like and that
healing, I feel like it kind oflike it transmits past the
Canvas when, or past whatevermedium you're using when it
begins to interact with peopleoutside. And so that was like,

(17:11):
that was hap that was like, asyou said, yeah, that was
probably like a landmark, one ofthe landmarks, but I will say it
was, it was the biggest one. Itwas just like, it was almost
like a realization of like, I ambelieving in myself. I'm
believing in my goals. I'mtaking this huge risk that I
didn't even know. I didn't evenI still don't know where it's

(17:32):
going to lead, but I know thatI'm happy doing what I love, and
I'm happy even within the chaosand the storm of the art world.
I'm happy. And I feel like onceyou're happy and you have peace,
that's something that you canbuy anywhere. And I'm trying to
hold on to that too. So yeah, Ithink that. And I think when I

(17:56):
go into Campbell and realizingthat you know what Tony is up to
you now you're back in artschool. It's up to you to kind
of like show even like show mytutors, show my colleagues, show
myself that the ideas in my headare valid, the thoughts in my
heads are valid, the experiencesI see are valid, and somebody
can relate to it. So it was kindof like going through not the

(18:20):
fire, but was just basicallylaunching into the deep and
being like, I there's somethingthat I'm about to birth, and
that started the process for me.Campbell was like the it was the
window that opened the door forme to express myself. And I'm
still grateful to my tutor,Kate, for seeing that in me. So
yeah, it's
very interesting actually, thatyou've referred to validation

(18:43):
because you've said elsewhere,it was actually when you were
talking about knowledge ascurrency, and you said you have
to be validated by internationalstandards. And I was interested
in how you see that validation,how you want to be validated,

(19:03):
but also in your case, ofcourse, whilst, as you were
saying, You're you're authentic,your work responds to your
Nigerian heritage at the sametime. So it's not that you're
losing sight of your roots, butyou are interested in
international standards. Yeah,
I think it will be me. I'll belying if I say I don't want like

(19:29):
validation. I think that. Ithink every artist wants to be
validated. It's not aboutwhether International, locally.
I look at validation, the senseof somebody connecting to your
work, because that kind of itmakes it feel like this is not
just something personal, it'ssomething that connects to other

(19:52):
people, and people can see it'skind of like when you hear like
you hear someone's story, and itconnects to you or you. Read a
book, whether it's fiction orit's real, and you connect to a
character in there. In that wayyou are validating. You you go
somewhere and you leave a reviewbecause you had a nice

(20:12):
experience from the food. Youare validating that. You are
validating person that createdthe food or created the
enterprise. And so I feel likeas an artist, a lot of times,
because in the world that welive in right now, social
currency and importance comes toeither either valuing money or
value Association. But whenpeople see your work and connect

(20:38):
to it without having those twothings, I feel like that makes
you look at, okay, there'ssomething here for me, whether
or not it's making issustainable. There's something
here that people in the worldcan connect to, and I can
continue on this part way andlike also, it was a theme of, I

(21:01):
went to art school in Nigeria,and for a lot of things, Nigeria
is great for a lot of things,and I'm grateful for Nigeria as
my upbringing and just likewhere I came from. But it's just
like before George Floyd, I feellike there was not that much
response to just black arts ingeneral. And I'm also just like,

(21:25):
I felt like there was also nowthe theme of, after George
Floyd, every single artist thatcame from, like, a minor ethnic
like background or group from anAfrican country, or, like, if
you have mixed heritage, it feltlike you now had to take this
mantle of responsibility toexist in a more like political

(21:46):
like, well, I say system forlike your art, because, like, it
just felt like, okay. Now theworld has turned to look at
black arts as not just likeviable, but important. And so
they're trying to, like, rush,almost like inclusion in like
museums and in systems galleriestrying to push representation

(22:08):
within their own systems, andpicking like, will I say they
are talking about talking likeartists or like, almost like
their chosen ones, andrepresentation around that. And
it just felt like it became sucha hard almost, just like a fight
to be seen and chosen. And inall of this, I was just like,

(22:33):
This is not why I want to goback into I'm not going back
into art because, of course,this is needed. We need
representation and diversity.Just like in the art world, I'm
going back to art because I wantto, I want to tell stories of
what I see people going throughin the world from every single
background, not just because I'mfrom Nigeria. So I have to take

(22:53):
that. Of course, there'll stillbe elements within that that I
bring to my work, but I feellike I'm talking to every single
person. And so I I knew, I knewclearly that I wanted to make
sure that I'm almost likerepresenting myself to every
single person and not justboxing myself in one. The second

(23:13):
thing also is just that Londonis, is a very is one of the
biggest markets that existsright now, and I felt this is
just my personal, will I say, mypersonal, like standards, I said
to myself, was, if I'm goingback into art and I'm doing
this, I need to go back to theplace where I feel is one of the

(23:35):
big will I say, the major citiesthat pushes are, if I'm not
going to London, then I'm eithergoing to Berlin, or I'm going to
New York, or like I'm going toone of the spaces where I feel
like I would have it would theenvironment would force me to
not just grow, but evolve. Andand I feel like those are some

(23:56):
of the things that I mentallyalready put there. And so that
now goes into what I would sayas international validation,
because I believe that if justpersonally, I think, is also
standards I set on myself, is ifI feel like this is something I
really love, and this is a storythat I really want to tell and

(24:17):
portray, and I feel people wantto connect to, why don't I go to
the place where everybody isalmost like the melting pot of
different ethnic groups anddifferent like different people
and societies, and see how muchI can make my voice speak within
these spaces. Because it's easyto stay in a very small

(24:37):
community or a small village andbe the loudest voice there, and
be comfortable in thatcommunity. But does it really
connect to every single person?There's purpose in that, and
there are artists that are doingthat, but for me personally, I
felt like I didn't want to, Ididn't want to limit myself if

(24:59):
I'm. If I'm launching into thedeep, let me go full in. And I
think I'm one person. I'm verypassionate, and I just go. I
just I just go. I don't know, Ijust go. So I was like, You know
what? I'm coming here. And in away, sometimes looking for
validation, or internationalvalidation, it's not really, I

(25:19):
feel like it's not somethingthat artists should do, to be
honest. But in a way, for me, itwas more about like I wanted to,
I wanted to prove a point tomyself and make it and make me,
um, I'm
trying to look for the rightwords, because, yeah, you're

(25:41):
validating yourself. Yeah, itwas, it
was, it was basically personallyfor me, not really for anybody
else, or, yeah, set standardspersonally, just for me,
because, yeah, I just, I spentsome time away and coming back
inside. I wanted to be sure thatthis is, this is my purpose.
This is what I really want todo, and I wanted to make sure

(26:03):
I'm putting myself in the rightenvironment that would be the
right catalyst to bring my artout and its purest form, if that
makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely. And it'sreally interesting to go back to
a phrase you just used about thefight to be seen, because, of
course, it's really interestingwhen we think about that in the

(26:25):
context of your work, and thisiconic use of the IFA mask in
your paintings, you know, in theidea of social mask, and also
foregrounding those artistictreasures from from the Yoruba
people in your work is a way ofbeing seen. And I wondered for

(26:48):
the listeners, if you'd like totalk about how you started to
work with that motif that youwanted to foreground, the
iconic, IFA mask in your workand is part of what you wanted
to be seen and what you wantedto say,

(27:08):
okay, yeah. So, like my okay. Somy, my mom is from IFE, and my
dad is from riverst. River Stateis in southwest of Nigeria is
where the oil is from. Thatbasically financed like the
whole of Nigeria when oil wasdiscovered in terms of just like

(27:33):
because of the resources andeverything. My mom is from, IFA,
the heart of the Yoruba people,and my grandpa, so called Sooko
Adebiyi Adedewe used to work under the Ooni of Ife at the time, when
I was younger, I used to go toIFE a lot. I used to go to the

(27:54):
palace a lot. I used to justhang around my grandpa in his
house. I think I've gone forlike two or three of his, of his
meetings when he's sitting downwith the the only, the only is
like the monarch, the monarch ofthe IFA people, and one of, like
the three big monarchs withinNigeria. So I think looking back

(28:17):
now, I didn't know how all ofthis was just going to add up,
but I just know, like everytime, if we're not traveling
anywhere within Nigeria, I wouldgo and spend time. Mom made sure
that me and my brothers would gospend time with my grandpa and
just like listening to thestories about like if and the
people of Ife and so when Iwanted to be an artist, my dad

(28:40):
insisted that I go to IFA,because it felt like, if you're
going to learn art school, Iwanted to leave the country. It
was like, no, go back home andlearn from like, where exactly
like, learn what traditional artis, and then you can leave
outside and then go. So I feellike that was like, the first
basis about like me interactingwith just like if, even when I

(29:04):
went to art school in Nigeria, Ididn't really like a lot of the
things that I experienced,because I felt like it was very
backward educational system.That's a long spill, but I still
try to like, I think a lot oftimes it kind of like
reinforced, like, what I'm doingright now, and then going into
corporate and living corporate,my proposal to Campbell when I

(29:27):
went to school was I wanted totalk about the influence of mask
in popular culture. The mostpopular one that everybody knows
is Pablo Picasso, and how, likethe African Marx influenced,
like his piece. And so my myresearch was to find the
influence of different masterexisted within Africa as a

(29:50):
whole, and the influence of thatin modern contemporary like art.
And that's how I got into campwar. But coming in, I realized I
was doing the same mistake.Which is basically grouping
Africa as one, grouping all theethnicities that exist within
one understanding that evenmyself within Nigeria that has
over 360 like languages and likeso many ethnic groups, I'm from

(30:14):
two people that existed from twoethnic groups. My mom from a
major ethnic group called theYoga people and my dad from a
minor ethnic group called thecaliber people in degama that's
in in rivers state. So it waslike, I didn't want to, I didn't
want to fall into that samebracket of almost like grouping
people. And I felt like, who amI to to like, how fully of me to

(30:39):
think that I could representevery single mass that exists.
Do you understand and like, pickone and see the influence
inside? So I was like, I want tostick closer to home. And I
remember, as I say, I'll go backto Kate. Kate and a friend of
mine, Roy, that was like mycolleague in school, K was more

(30:59):
particular about me, trying tofigure out something that was
personal to myself and my storyand personal to me, like not
trying to generalize, because Iremember the first work I did
when I came to Campbell, one ofmy tutors didn't like it. And
Kay was like, No, you havesomething here continue. But she
was like, I need you to go tothe British Museum. And so I

(31:20):
went to the British Museum, andin the African center, if you
know, when you go down, it's inthe basement, he looks like he's
in the basement. And then you goto you see the Benin plaques,
which are the Benin bronzeplaques and everything. And I'm
from ephels that, oh, that'snice. I was trying to find about
context of what I'm going to useas the mask, because at that
time, I was thinking, instead oftrying to focus on doing so many

(31:44):
masks, why don't just do one?And then I saw the ether mask,
the EFF Max is on the left handside, when you come in to the
basement. I was like, wow.Nobody really talks about this
guy. Everybody talks about theBenin bronze masks and
everything. And I was like, andI'm from IFA. And I was like, I
also went to IFA art school. Youknow what? I'm going to use this

(32:05):
mask. And so then I now went andstarted doing research about the
mask. And first of all, theMasters in the museum is the
mask that was taken. That wastaken by It was first discovered
by a German archeologist calledLeo frobinius. And he was taking
investigate to Germany. And itwas with him for about, I think,

(32:26):
10 to 12 years. And at thattime, there was this huge
discord about, like, Oh, likethat. The only people that could
make very naturalisticsculptures and like, heads, like
all those, like boss were likethe Greek arts. Because the
Greek art was very likenaturalistic and realistic. And
so at the time when the if abronze mask was discovered and

(32:48):
the bronze hairs werediscovered, people thought, oh,
this could not come fromNigeria, that how did they how
was that civilization thisadvanced, be able to make this
so it was until when leopubeneath like the more research
was done and was brought to theUK. That's when it was now,
like, accepted that this wasoriginally from effect because

(33:08):
Leo, Leo forbiz discovered awoman AJ site. And so for me, it
was so interesting that even themask in itself was already
causing so much confrontation interms of, just like showing that
we're all the same, that we allhave, we all have, like stories
to tell, showing the richhistory of just like how, like

(33:29):
our processes, like two peoplethat were separated by seas and
land were making artworks thatwere almost on the same level
and on the same path and alsohad great significance, but just
one was put higher than theother, and I felt, ah, this is
very interesting. And then alsonow, like researching, because

(33:49):
going back to to like my toschool, and speaking to, like my
professors and everything backin Nigeria, realizing that the
artists that actually startedthis mask was, like, you know
when, like, back in the day, youhad, like, they had nine years
they had, like, you have, like,maids, drivers and all of that

(34:09):
as well. I say people that workfor, like, the for, like, the
big, will I say officers, orlike political leaders at the
time, or like monarchs andeverything. This artisan that
actually started this, that is,if you search, I've searched
everywhere there's no name aboutthis person. There's nothing

(34:29):
about this person. Is literallya person that started this
identity of making this effectbronze marks on these
clarifications. And the onlyreason why this even like has
become a big deal because it wasa king at the time that
patronized this artist and madeit because they used, because
back in the day, there were nophotographs and everything. So

(34:51):
this was made to, will I say,like inaugurate and celebrate
like royalty and people thatwere the royal bloodline. So
it's almost like. When you walkinto the palace, you see boss
heads of the past, unease andpeople within the royal family
with their boss there. So it wasalmost like, it was almost like
how you like in the Renaissancetime, where you see paintings

(35:12):
of, like, very wealthy peoplethat help, like the either the
Roman Empire or like the GreekEmpire, those kind of things
like this one you're seeing,you're seeing boss of like, just
very influential people onroyalty back in the day. So I
felt like this was sointeresting that this person
that made it nobody knows aboutit. And in my the way for me, it

(35:33):
was almost like a paradox ofjust like an artist's life, like
you don't know whether you'regoing to be known or recognized
for your work while you'realive. It might be 100 years
after it might be some peopleare getting recognized now. Some
people are getting recognized atthe end of their life. And I was
like, in a way, this is like ahomage to the person that
started it that I don't know hisname, but the people that in the

(35:57):
record books are king obalo funwas a person that actually
patronized and made, like,patronize the artist to make
this, Leo fabrinos, thatdiscovered this and brought it,
and then, of course, in thediscord about it in the British
Museum. And I also realizedthat, because when I went in, I
want to find out if I want toget, like, a small cast of this,

(36:19):
of this mask, it's 5000 pounds.I was like, wow,
oh, this mask is 5000 pounds. Iwas like, You know what I'm
going to I want to use this maskto in my work and to almost,
like, tell the story of thisartist that nobody knows, and

(36:43):
let him leave on and almost likein my because I'm also from me
first, like, in a way, I feellike I am continuing like his
story that he started, but alsoit was just like, in the context
of what I wanted to do is I hadtwo options in Campbell. Sorry,
don't worry, I round up verysoon. I had two options in
Campbell, it was either I makemy own mask and use that as part

(37:04):
of my story and continue, orlike, I pick one mask, and I was
like, I'm not gonna pick themask from my father's side,
because I just felt like hedidn't relate to what I wanted
to talk about. And I just feltlike he also I just didn't
connect as much to it, but Ifelt like the epmr is connected
to my story and my transition asan artist. And I was like, and

(37:25):
there's also so muchconversation around us, like,
you know what? I want to usethis now. What happened? Covid?
Happened? Everybody startedwearing masks. We started
wearing masks to go everywhere.And if you wear glasses, you
wear hats, you'll not be able tosee anybody's face, like, except
you are in the same vicinity orthe same environment as the

(37:47):
person if you don't recognizetheir voice, if you're not
spoken to them in two, threeyears, or, like, six months, you
might not recognize them likemost people will have put on,
like, either grown hair, losthair. People change their looks,
everything. So I was like, thisis something that I feel like
people connect to, because wejust came out from almost two
years of lockdown. And I feellike, if I want to talk about

(38:09):
work that allow people to bevery introspective about life,
let me use a mask. And so that'swhat I was like, I'm going to
use this mask as the mask to,kind of like the little people
inside, but the work that Icreated is much deeper than just
a mask. In a way, for me, I'mjust like honoring the person
that study. Of course, there'shistory behind it, but I'm now

(38:32):
talking about the character andeverything that I put in my
work. And yeah, so that's howwill I say that came to be? And
once I spoke to my tutor, Ispoke to a few of my colleagues
about it. I just the secondpainting I did in London behind
the scenes was basically thefirst debut of like me putting

(38:56):
the mask. And I said, I'm gonnakeep painting this, and I'm not
going to change from that. And Irealized also, you know, when
you see paintings, the firstthing you look at is the eyes
and the expression on theperson's face to kind of guess
about the characters and stuff,especially if you go to like the
National Portrait Gallery,you're always looking at the
meaning of like, the thecharacter, the figure, like the

(39:20):
expression before you go intolike gestures, bodies, movement
or brush strokes or anything.And I was like, wow. So if I
take two of the most importantthings, not two of the most
important things, but what Ithink gets people first. If I
remove the eyes and I remove theexpressions and I put a mask,
what am I getting people to do?Am I'm allowing people to look

(39:41):
deeper beyond just the face, tostart looking at the figure, the
demeanor, the colors, the littleinscriptions to make up a story.
And for me as a child, I alwayswanted to make people just look
deeper. Like, stop for a secondand like stare. I was like, You
know what? I think I havesomething here, and that's how I

(40:03):
started making my pieces. Andyeah,
it's, it's very, very powerful,because, as you've just said, it
does trigger all thoseconsiderations about identity
and deeper meanings. And ofcourse, it also your work also
shows a really strong collisionwith colonialism as well. And of

(40:28):
course, the IFA masks at theBritish Museum are part of
significant controversy. SoTonya, just for listeners who
may not be familiar with thatcontroversy in the UK, I'll just
outline that the masks, thephone masks, along with 1000s of

(40:49):
objects, were taken from thekingdom of Benin, and these were
looted by British troops in 1897so the displacement of these
artifacts in various museums,including the British Museum,
has led to controversy aroundidentity. Some have been
returned. I understand, in fact,in 2026 some of the treasures

(41:14):
returned will have a lastinghome in Benin's city's new Edo
Museum of West African art, forexample. But nevertheless, the
controversy remains. And I alsoimagine this is very present in
your thinking, in your work, andI wondered how it impacts you in

(41:38):
terms of identity, place andownership?
Yeah, I think so. I feelsometimes I've not really
thought that far about like whenit comes to like ownership,
because like people, I've hadsomeone say, there are a lot of
people that are from MIFARE thatcould use this mask in their

(42:01):
work. There are a lot of peoplethat from Nigeria, that I feel
like being a Nigerian artist, orbeing an artist that's from
Nigeria, that's heritage inNigeria, is very difficult to
it's not like it's difficult tostand out. It's just that the
reality is like you have to findyour voice, because everybody
has claims to the history, theprofound history that we have.

(42:26):
So I'd always looked at that asthe upsides of basically this,
it has to be something that ispersonal and connected to me. It
has to be something that ispersonal to my story and
connects to me. And if youremember everything that I've
said, I feel like everything Ijust built up to this moment

(42:46):
that I'm in right now. However,I think that one thing I always
try to, I think has been settledwith me, is I don't really
think. I don't really think somuch about the mask in itself. I
know the reason, as I'veexplained, why I'm doing I'm
putting the mask in my work, butnow I'm trying to bring the

(43:06):
mask, almost like just opposingit in like a modern setting, to
get us to look at what'shappening right now, so that we
don't repeat the same mistakesthat happened over like, a
couple, like, years ago. Andit's like thinking about just
like, the unrest that exists inthe world right now, because

(43:29):
there's so much going on,there's so much going on, and a
lot of times I think about allthe big effect of, like,
politics, economics, first worldcountries, all of that, I see
the impact to third worldcountries, people that have been
affected by just likecolonialism and all of that. And

(43:51):
I'm just like, if people couldjust start being better, because
I believe that everything startsby you as an individual,
deciding to be better, youdeciding to have some level of
moral, some level of integrity,some level of justice, some
level of authenticity. And Ilike if we, if people are able

(44:15):
to be better, and it's not eventhinking about in the grand
scheme of like, oh, the world,because there are a lot of
things that have happened beforeanybody was born in this world.
Like, if you if you're not born,like, I mean, what's 100 from
minus here? My math is terrible.Oh, my God. Like the 1919, 1914

(44:37):
to like, now, like, a lot ofthings that happened before you
didn't have control of that, butit's like what you are living in
this world right now, if you canjust choose to be better. And a
lot of times i i Don't try toeven think big, grand schemes. I
think about be a better person,like at work, be a better person
to your neighbor. Be a betterroommate, housemate, be a

(44:59):
better. Family member, just,it's just, like, how simple,
like, you know, when you walk onthe road and you when somebody
looks at you and you smile moreoften than not, they smile back
at you, if you, if you're nice,like someone, like someone is
trying to rush somewhere, andyou see, maybe they're hurrying,
or you have time, say you couldgo, or somebody like, dropped

(45:19):
something on the floor, hi, likethose little things, like the
little things like you are, andit's not even about like,
because sometimes everybody hasbad days, but just try and be
better and put some good in theworld. I feel like that has a
domino effect that we sometimesforget how that quantifies and
even makes you feel better,makes you happier. There's

(45:40):
sometimes that they see thatwhen you discuss something with
a friend of yours, even thoughyou guys don't have, like,
something that is troubling onyour heart, like a problem half
shared is half solved. A lot oftimes it's just talking about it
gets the weight off from you.And I'm like, I want to be able
to make people reflect and tryto be better, even I myself,
this a call to me. Every time Imake work, I remember there are

(46:03):
stories about either what, whereI was going through, what I was
doing, what came to my mind, orexperiences that resonated with
me. And I remember what it meansto me. And I'm always like when
I look at it, it's almost like,you know when you take, like a
Polaroid camera, you take apicture, when you go on a
vacation, I remember where youwere at that time when you took

(46:25):
this picture, we were weird, orthe location you were like a
stamp in moment, like, for me,as a reminder of, like, how I
want to either be better orimprove, doesn't mean like, I'm
not above mistakes or anything,and I feel like that's that's
the human element that I feellike everybody, regardless of
wherever you're born, canconnect to and I was like, I

(46:46):
want to make people feel, I wantto make people reflect. I want
to make people see things. Allthe context in my work is just
to show you how multi layered weall are as people. But of
course, it's a brain. It's abrain in people that will not
necessarily identify look at mywork by the end of days like I'm
talking about every singleperson and every single person's

(47:07):
experience. And I always try tolead with hope, because I feel
like if we all look at what'sgoing on, on the news and
everything, we'll think thatthis world is about to die. But
I still believe I'm one of thosepeople that believe that things
are getting better, and we aremaking things better, but we, we
just need to. I feel like, justlook at the glass half full

(47:27):
instead of half empty. I mightbe one of those. Like, what do
they say? Yeah, all those peoplethat are very optimistic. So not
like, Well, yeah, I just feellike more of that, because if
no, like, we'll all just betrying to run away. Either some
people are trying to run awayfrom problems, or people

(47:48):
creating bubbles for themselvesto protect themselves from
problems, and at the end ofdays, like, who's gonna face
these things that we're seeingthat's happening, that's playing
out in birthday light every day.So
yeah, it's really interesting.Optimism is exactly something I
wanted to talk to you aboutbecause I wondered if during

(48:10):
your time with your fellowshipat the Venice Biennale, you
visited the Nigerian Pavilion atall because I was interested in
reading about the work there,billed as young artists in a new
nation, and the emphasis wasvery much on optimism. And in

(48:32):
fact, a quote that I reallyliked from the curator of that
exhibition was was, after all,imagination is the most fertile
and powerful tool of liberationthat we possess.
I think, like for me, Venice wasa various was very it was very

(48:53):
interesting. I'm grateful to thecollective makers for selecting
me as their champion to go. AndI'm grateful to the British
Council for also like workingwith them to allow me to go.
That's, that's my head goes toSophie and Becky. And it was, it
was a good experience. I met. Ithink that Venice kind of showed

(49:13):
me how, how the art worldexists. It wasn't my first time.
Was my first time going and justexclusively for the Biennale and
seeing how like the different,like pavilions exhibited their
work, especially because thisthis year, foreigners
everywhere, felt like, how willI put it? To be honest, it just

(49:38):
felt like this was a time where,because of what's happened prior
to George Floyd, they were like,Okay, let every country send
their representation of what hefelt to be inclusive and put out
on the world. That being saidevery I feel like every single
person's artwork that came outfrom the different countries

(49:59):
that was there. I. Was profound.I think a lot of times
it almost felt like
it felt like there was a lotthat was trying to be done in
short, a short amount of time,because of the opportunity that
was given to represent inclusionfor will I say for the first

(50:23):
time, if that makes sense, andfor the smaller pavilions that
were free, like the Nigerianpavilion, it was, it was a
chance to show a statement of weexist, and not just that we
exist. We're just like, thethings that we're doing is also

(50:43):
very valid. It's also should beconsidered and yet valued and
considered, but also like thereis hope. There is hope in the
inclusion of every other personthat basically wasn't like

(51:06):
giving like the spotlight backin the day. And so for the
different curators and thedifferent artists that gave
their works to support thepavilions, each person, I think,
tried to work with the budgetthat they had. Because another
thing that I think sometimes weforget when it comes to
showcasing artworks representingof countries is is monetary. You

(51:32):
need money to get these thingsto showcase, to to almost
represent, like your countriesand all of that. And AJ did a
good job. She did a really goodjob. And I felt like I was happy
when some of the highlights ofpeople's Venice experience, you
see some of the things thathappened from the Nigerian

(51:54):
pavilion, however, I just feellike there needs to be there
needs to be more done. If thatmakes sense, like it's I hope
it's not the last. I hopethere's more conversations to
more conversations to show moreartists that have more

(52:16):
what's the word exposure? Widenperception. Yes,
wider perception, I think, Ithink we need more of that,
because at the end of day is itstill feels, for me, even going
to Venice, it still feels likeit still feels like a chosen
few. And yeah,

(52:37):
there's such a problem with asense of elitism, still, yeah,
and what happens with the chosenfew, for those that are very
grounded, is they now try totake on so much and show so
much, and then it becomes toomuch for the person that's just
coming to see like, I thoughtabout it, like in Venice is
like, how many people get to goto Venice? How many people get

(53:00):
to see what's happening inVenice. I mean, people get to
just like, experience Venice andexperience the voices that are
within Venice. Like in itself isstill like a little show. It's a
showcase, and it shows, it stilllike, reinforces like things
that I feel like sometimes we'vebeen fighting for but regardless

(53:23):
of that, like I'm happy. Ipersonally am happy that it was
almost like a global attempt toto be more inclusive, and it's a
step in the right direction. Iwill always nod instead of
turning, turning like, what doyou say? Turn your chin. I've
forgotten all this phrase. Butlike, I'm happy when I see steps

(53:47):
in the right direction, for thebetter or worse, it makes things
better. Like it just like,pushes the conversation forward.
Somebody else will take that andmake it more inclusive, make it
more have more, wider perceptionfor other people that are there
and and I think that it's also,it's also good that going

(54:08):
forward, like the VeniceBiennale, we have people, more
people like the British Counciland organizations like TCN,
included in just getting morepeople to experience Venice.
Because for me, Venice was justa reinforcement that voices are
valid, that representation iskey, and just that there's power

(54:29):
in community. Because I met somany people in Venice, and maybe
I have friends that met now fromMontreal, Singapore in Venice, I
also saw the plight of Venetianartists, which is another thing,
because it's almost like we comeand we take over Venice. When I
say we, I feel like everybodythat is not from Venice come and

(54:50):
they showcase and then theartists within Venice are not
like, like, nobody really like,talks about like, the artist
from there and the work fromthere. And I. Okay, I met, I
stayed with a curator and ahistorian. Sergio Bowden. He is
a curator and a historian inVenice is a seven city, 760 old

(55:12):
cyclist, and he was the one thatalso made reinforce my my
experience in Venice, and madeit very wholesome to me, apart
from like, everything thateverybody that I met there and
he also, like made me see theimportance of just like
acceptance. He accepted me tohis home. He gave me a very like

(55:35):
he welcomed me. We had dinner,we had drinks. He would take me
around Venice to see like thechurches and the sculptures
within the churches, I saw like,he told me about, like his
favorite painter, Venetianpainter. And for me, it just
like, it that that was like alike, will I say, like a
crescendo for me in Venice,because he made me realize the

(55:57):
importance of just what art isin people's world, and how that
opens the doors for discussion.Open the doors for like history
to interwine, open the doors forjust reflection on the world.
And because of my experiencewith Sergio now, like they love
things that I think about, evenjust on like artists that in
Venice, and I'm going to go backto Venice and collaborate with

(56:19):
artists that are there,curators, that are there people
that sometimes get overshadowedbecause of the will I say, the
Olympics of the Venice Biennale,which in itself, is also doing
something good. Mind you, notthe Biennale is doing something
good. But regardless, of course,it's, it doesn't cover everybody

(56:40):
and experiences that I was ableto do by British Council open
things up. And in a way, it'snot even to pivot, but it's just
like what we're doing withAdrian is also just like opening
doors for people that areprobably not even looked at,
like, to be honest, when helike, when it's so for people

(57:02):
don't know, Adrian is the reasonwhy I met Paula, and Paula is a
great person and has invited mehere. And I'm happy and thankful
they brought me in. But Adrianwas he's doing a show for
artists, the art of PR. Yeah,the art of PR. People that
worked in the PR industry thatactually artists are hard. And I

(57:23):
was like, Yeah, I'm gonna do it.And that's in November. So it
was just very interesting tojust see, like, we need things
like this, and we need people tobe open to things like this,
because at the end of the day,what artists we do is that we're
mirroring back the world andwe're telling stories. So it's
like, yeah, yeah,
yeah. It's very important, andjust briefly for the listeners,
I will be sign posting theforthcoming exhibition The Art

(57:46):
of PR. It'll be on Tony'sepisode page. It will be at the
coningsbury Gallery in Londonfrom November the 18th to the
23rd and there will be more onthe episode page. But Tonya,
taking that example and witheverything you've just said
about the Venice experience,both of these efforts are about

(58:08):
being able to raiserepresentation more diversely,
more broadly, wider and withoutthe elitist assumptions about
where art comes from. So, forexample, the art of PR is
challenging. The idea of youknow, is art respectable in

(58:30):
advertising, but perhaps not inPR? For example, we need to push
any form of structural barrieraway in the world of art so that
people can thrive as artists,have their voices and be seen
exactly what Venice, of course,has wanted to do. And I

(58:51):
highlighted in the introduction,you know that the theme of of
Venice being exactly what youwere you were talking about. You
know that it's not about beingstrangers, outsiders,
marginalized and so on and soon. It's about being able to
have representation and selfrepresentation without without

(59:11):
gatekeepers. So I think you'vetouched on so many important
things there. And I certainlyfelt the Nigerian pavilion was
was doing and saying very, verysignificant things. They were
the young artists wereresponding to colonialism, even
what we were talking aboutearlier, the controversy around

(59:33):
the Benin treasures beinglooted, is represented, but
nevertheless, their emphasis isis about optimism. It's about
new blood, and it's about goingforward, and you seem to very
much share those values.
Yeah, it was, it was reallynice, like, I actually like

(59:54):
shiny bars work that was there.I think that he's been having a
very good run. Yeah. I mean,he's worked a lot, he's worked a
lot. He's worked a lot for a lotof years. But I like, like how
he's able to just like, re, re,imagine his work and in
different audiences. And Ireally like the spectacle that I

(01:00:16):
put on with the curator for theNigerian pavilion. I think
that's nice. I've also, Irecently went to see his show my
friend Sani at Serpentine, andjust like seeing that, and
seeing how he's been able toreally do stuff, and that's
really great. And I also thinkthat right now, I feel like in

(01:00:39):
the art world, we need to createlike what you're saying. We need
to create more voices forpeople. Because I have friends
that are going to Campbell,bringing it back, and I have
friends that went to art schooland they don't like they they're
not they're not black, they'renot Asian, they're not from,
like, a minor ethnic group, butthey're great artists. And
there's this, there's, there'sthis problem that is kind of

(01:01:03):
like existing now, whereeverybody's work has to be
political, or tick a certain boxfor their work to exist. And I
worry about that, because it nowbecomes like, so what was art in
the first place? Like, there arepeople that make art that it's
beautiful, it's inspiring, it'shopeful. We need to still fight

(01:01:27):
for voices like that thatdoesn't really have to have any
political, um, well, I saynotion like Muslim, like every I
know that at the end of the day,the funniest thing is that every
artist, no matter how muchpainting or how much work or
sculpture or drawing orperformance work that they make,

(01:01:50):
is still very deep rooted inimpact, impact that's either pro
something or for like or againstsomething, But is is is rooted
in trying to pass a message, nomatter how basic it might look.
And sometimes I think thatbecause of this, well, I say

(01:02:11):
selective box ticking, thatwe're creating the art world.
We're excluding people from whatis art, and we're almost
defining art for people. And is,is making people that that make
art, that actually great artistssettle for other things and not
work, like, not pursue artanymore, or do it at their
leisure, or just keep it to theconfines of their own. And I

(01:02:32):
worry about that, and it'ssomething I was like, Yeah, I
think it'll be good to like,what do you think about that?
Paula, because I feel likesometimes, like I have friends,
like, a friend of mine, Mariemakes, like, really great work.
She's this great German painterthat talks about the influence
of like, AI on like, on ourworld right now. And that's

(01:02:54):
also, like, a very bigconversation within arts and
creative writing and film. Andit's like, but yeah, like, it
doesn't when you think about thesystems, institutions that
support, whether it's grants, orwhether it's just even
collectors or, like galleries orpeople that are buying, it's
like, it's kind of like a hardcycle, because everybody wants
to, everybody wants to buy workthat is almost politically or,

(01:03:18):
Like, culturally driven rightnow, because that's the one that
I feel like has had moreeconomical value in just recent
years based on things, yeah, weshouldn't do those things, I
don't know. Just yeah,
yeah. It's interesting, becausewhilst you know the work will be

(01:03:38):
significant, it's also been verycareful, isn't it, not to box
tick. So whilst we're thinkingabout the importance of
inclusion and equality anddiversity, we have to be very
careful that these aren't boxticking exercises. So as you

(01:03:59):
were saying, there will beresponses to artists dealing
perhaps, with those themes. Andso there may be an exhibition,
or there may be small pavilionsthat are available, for example,
at the Venice Biennale, youknow, dealing with with these
themes. But at the same time,art should be understood as

(01:04:21):
everybody's and flourish inmultiple ways, responding to
multiple themes. And I think itjust really points to the heavy
work we all have to do aroundremoving structural barriers,
which have by far been dominatedby wealth, money, colonialism,

(01:04:43):
assumptions about who isrepresented and who isn't.
There's an there's an awful lotto do. And actually, you know by
you raising that, it's a verygood point to maybe think about
the city. Series question,cannot save us. And actually,

(01:05:04):
obviously it's a broad questionthat can have multiple answers,
but perhaps I could quote you,because it's something I have in
mind in relation to thatquestion, cannot save us. Cannot
save us. And you said, art is mypeace. It makes me happy, it
gives me peace, life andhealing. And that is the honest

(01:05:26):
truth.
Yeah, I'd save me. I don't like,I'd save me. That's all I'll
say. Because while I was evenlike, when I say it gives me
peace, it does get like, I'mhappy, oh, I don't know. I feel
like, I don't know if I could, Icould express happiness via

(01:05:46):
voice note, but it's like, I am,I am truly happy. I'm truly
happy making work. I'm trulyhappy storytelling. And like,
I've not even, I've never evenexplored the other aspect of art
I can make. I'm just doing thisbecause this is the easiest,

(01:06:08):
this is literally the easiest,most economical way for me to be
able to translate what I have onthe inside of me outside, and
that's where I'm painting anddrawing. When I have the
capacity to be able to do a lotmore, I'll be able to bear a lot
more things that have been in myin my notes, pads and my books
for like 1010, 10 years, fiveyears, I keep writing. The list

(01:06:29):
keeps going longer. I'm alwaysscared, like, but yeah, is is I
feel like art really saves us.It saves it saved me. It was
like it was my healing, it wasmy therapy. It still is my
healing. It still is my therapy.Still what I go to to try and,
like, figure out myself andfigure out, like, what I see in

(01:06:52):
the world, but also like in thatspace, it's it's what I feel
like we use to document andreflect them. And there's
nothing as pure as I like, evenjust a cycle of art. Like, I
listen to music. I listen tomusic. I listen to podcasts.
There's a guy's podcast I reallylove right now that we listen to

(01:07:12):
George the poet. Very phenomenalpoet. Oh yeah, yeah. Very
phenomenal. Like, and just likehim, I listen to like, Cleo
soul. She gets me in themorning, and I'm just able to,
like, wake up and just like, gethead down to the studio and just
paint. And the cycle of art thatsometimes we forget because
technology is dead without art,whether it's games, whether it's

(01:07:35):
messaging, whether it's evenjust pictures and stuff like,
there's no life without art. Andif people can't realize that
actually is what saves us, thenI don't know where they're
living. I feel like they need tocome and see my life. But
yeah, and actually, it's lovelythat you mentioned poetry,
because maybe I can just brieflyadd that I think one of the

(01:07:58):
things you took from Venice,particularly from Sir John
aconfer, the artist whorepresented the British
Pavilion. His commission waslistening all night to the rain.
And of course, his work embracespoetry, and I understand that
that has become an influence. Iwondered if briefly you'd like

(01:08:19):
to maybe let the listeners knowwhat you've taken from Venice,
and in terms of the work wemight see with the collective
makers, how that might bestretched in new ways.
I think the first thing thatJohn did for me was John blew my

(01:08:40):
mind, because General Conferencework was there's a word he uses
in his I forgot to see I'm badmy English man, oh, my god, the
meaning of the word that heuses. I remember because tyranny
wrote it down. The curator'sbook is basically when you you
take different elementstogether, and you mix it to

(01:09:02):
become something new. That'swhat he did excellently well in
his in his display at theBritish Pavilion. And it's kind
of like it's and for me, anotherway to like, explain that. It's
like, you know, when somebody'smaking a film, you take
different parts of artists, likedifferent art, like you get you
have a set designer, you have awriter, you have an actor.

(01:09:25):
Everybody's bringing theirlittle bit of artistry to embody
the film that makes a new formof art in itself. That's what it
was able to do. And for me, alot of times, I think that
because I was my initialfoundation of what I thought
like I was going to add that Icould afford to do was
rudimentary in terms ofpaintings, drawings, sculptures,

(01:09:47):
installation, merchandise, thenew films that exist in in just
like the 21st century. But hedid something was very profound.
Was using archival images toread. Invent and create new
storytelling overlaid with likespeeches from Malcolm X to
Nelson Mandela to womenactivists that done so many

(01:10:09):
profound things. And I was like,this, this is very interesting.
And I was like, this is reallypowerful. That's one second
thing he did that really blew mymind was the fact that, I think
a lot of times we think abouthistory linearly. And he was
looking at history as a whole,what things will happen
simultaneously? Because a lot oftimes is our natural mind. You

(01:10:32):
grow up, let's say I grew up inEssex. I went to school in
Essex. You think abouteverything that happened in line
with your growing up in Essex.However, things that happened
around the world, let's say youwere born in Essex from 1992 to
now, everything that happenedaround the world was happening
simultaneous as you were there.It's just that you were not
aware about it. And he did thatwhen he was talking about the

(01:10:55):
storytelling from things thathappened in the Vietnamese War,
and that the impact of war onlike soil and climate and the
environment to when he wastalking about just like, um, the
um, the riots that werehappening across um, South West
Africa and Africa andeverything. And this is someone

(01:11:15):
Jonathan's story. For anybodythat doesn't know, is he as
originally Ghanaian. His dadused to was like a political
activist, and then he had tocome and seek refuge in in the
UK, and started his practicethere. He was also one of the
first family members of theblack film collective. So seeing

(01:11:38):
what he was able to do withfilm, film, film, poetry and
just like sound made me realizethat as a creative, as an
artist, you don't, don't limityourself to just what you are,
like the field, the mediums thatare used to because you could
still tell your story throughdifferent mediums, like I can

(01:11:59):
still tell the story aboutpersonas and people and the
masks that we wear withoutactively having to paint or draw
or do an installation or like Icould create that through
something else. And it's like weneed to be able to look at
things through differentness.And that's one thing that I felt
like I really took on from whathe did. And when you meet John.

(01:12:20):
John is just very he's a verywarm character. Tarini, too.
Tarini is so nice. Very likeTony is very nice, very
attentive. Has a lot of context,and also just learning about
their story. Because I waslistening to I was listening to
them Tarini talk, and she wastalking about how, like her
personal, I think a master'sthesis was on Jonah comforta,

(01:12:44):
and when she was pitching toeven be the curator for the
British Council, and before shefinally, like, won, like she
didn't believe that, like sheeven had the opportunity to
actually get to be the one tocurate this with, like, a long
time hero of ours. And I justfeel like that's just so full
circle and so wholesome thatsomeone's going to just like

(01:13:06):
someone's like your your art hasimpacted someone else, and that
person now becomes the personyou get to collaborate to make
something new. And that's reallyprofound. And I'm sure this is
just what happened the BritishPavilion. I'm sure this happened
in the German pavilion, theFrance pavilion, like in other
pavilions that existed, that wasthere, and I felt like, Yeah,

(01:13:26):
this is it was something that Ifeel like as artists, we should
learn to just collaborate.Because I think that's an odd
thing, because we're alwaysalmost pitched against each
other, while we are literallycolleagues with each other in
the corporate world, anybodyelse, if you're working for any
other banks, not putting names,but we're working for different

(01:13:47):
banks, you see that? All thesame, all the same. I know I'm
using backers. Well, I don'tknow. I feel like that's the
most, most corporate bank ortech corporate. It's like they
all go out to they go to the pubtogether to go drink. They all
just go, like, cycling or in asports like, regardless of

(01:14:09):
whatever organization they areworking with. They all hang out
together. And I think in the artworld, because it's so elitist
that a lot of times thecamaraderie that we need of just
being together, not justartists, but also curators,
agents, dealers, people thatwork in the museums, the culture

(01:14:31):
custodians, the writers, thejournalists, like we are all
artists in different forms, weneed to literally come together
and collaborate and work,because the answers you need
might just be beside you. But alot of times I feel like,
because of how it has existed,the mystery of art is what has

(01:14:51):
also been the biggest, will Isay finance, the when I say,
yeah, the biggest money makerfor art in itself, because it
felt very um. Very mysterious,very exclusive, very elitist and
all of that. So I get that's whythere's that whole like mystery
around it that's trying to stillprotect that element of art. But
I feel like in this day and age,we need to collaborate more, and

(01:15:14):
especially because also socialmedia is not is not the real
thing. It's not the truetestament to what like of what's
actually happening in the artworld, and we need to actually
come together and connect ashuman beings. If there's
anything that covid has taughtus, is that we all crave human
connection, human relationships.We all like to go out and meet
people in person. Technology isa tool, is not the real deal,

(01:15:37):
and we need to, as artists, justwork together and not see
ourselves as preaching againsteach other, and yeah, so that,
as really, Venice has helped uschange a love like my
perspective on things, and I'llbe putting on a show with the
collective makers at the end ofthe year, just after the the

(01:15:59):
Venice Biennale, so I eitherthink at The end of the year or
the beginning of next year,because next year the Venezuela
is going to be aboutarchitecture and stuff. And
it'll be like my reactions tojust the experience in Venice,
my reactions to John's work. I'malso trying to experience like,
do different mediums. I'llprobably making some maths. I'm
collaborating some of like myVenice fellows that I went to

(01:16:22):
it, and hopefully it'll besomething that people would
would love to see and be a partof, but it's something to look
forward to. And I'm also workingon a couple other shows that I'm
happy to be a part of. And,yeah, I'm trying to continue
this, this this journey of mine.Yeah,

(01:16:42):
it's an exciting and flourishingjourney. I'm looking forward to
seeing all of it and to seeingmuch more. Your emphasis on
collaborating and connecting isso important, and you've said so
many beautiful things. I can'tthank you enough for your

(01:17:03):
generous time today. I know I'vestolen you longer than I should
have, but it was, it was such alovely conversation to have. And
thank you too to listeners andfor taking an interest in all of
these wonderful people that jointhis series, and they're
interesting perspectives, andplease do share the series where

(01:17:26):
you can. It's free to listen,and it's a chance to help art be
all of ours. Tonya, thank you somuch for your time today.
Thank you, Paula. Had a greattime. Thank you for having me.
Thank you for listening to thenonsense and unraveling.
It's not nonsense. Andramblings, it's far from it, and
I'm hoping that we get to talkagain. It was lovely.

(01:17:47):
We need to come to the show. Ican't wait. Yeah, you are coming
to my studio whenever you'refree. Let me know. Oh, I'd
love to. Thank you so much. Yes,and I'll see you soon at the
exhibition, which will be signposted on your episode page.
Yes, no problem. Thank you.Thank you. Bye. You.