May 5, 2022 • 61 mins
Eve Horne, is a singer, songwriter, producer, author, award winning mentor and activist. Eve's journey is a roller coaster from being in 90s 'girl groups' touring with major boy bands, a No. 1 single and millions of streams on Spotify, to a major life change dealing with depression then re-emerging as a producer and co-writer for major artists. Black, gay and a single mum, Eve is also a campaigner for gender equality in the music industry with her campaign 'The Unheard.' This year she is recognised as a Future Leader with Keychange, a global movement for equality. Eve talks about early trauma from feelings of rejection to racially motivated murder. She talks about life extremes from private jets to driving trains and onto the loneliness of leadership. Struggle has built her resilience and her commitment to justice is brave and unwavering.
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can be found here: https://canartsaveus.com/
Images: Courtesy of Eve Horne / Peak Music UK.
Audio edit: Courtesy of Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Discover Eve: https://www.peakmusic.uk/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? In this series I'mtalking to artists, musicians,
filmmakers, actors, art lovers,and other creatives. I'm
exploring how curiosity andcourage not only creates great
art and fuels the arts butcultivates a healthy mind to.
(00:24):
The same attitudes havecultivated in mindfulness
practice with scientific andevidence based results in the
treatment of depression, stressand anxiety. So I'm asking, Can
art save us and help change theglobal epidemic of mental
wellness? And my guest this weekis Eve horn, a singer
(00:47):
songwriter, producer, author,award winning mentor activist
and a mum. After attending thefamous 90s BRIT School, she was
signed to Polydor and EMI herfirst band montage was described
as TLC with balls, touring withthe Backstreet Boys boys zone
and Peter Andre. She went on tojoin juice a girl group with a
(01:10):
Christmas number one single inDenmark and millions of streams
on Spotify. A dramatic lifechange followed. Today Yves
spearheads THE UNHEARD campaignfor gender equality in the music
industry. And this year, she hasbeen recognized as a future
leader by key change a globalmovement for equality. Eve,
(01:33):
thank you very, very much forjoining me today.
It's an absolute pleasure,Paula, honestly, it really,
really is. Thank you so much forhaving me. Eve, I'd really like
to start by quoting you. Becauseyou also describe yourself as a
box ticker. And you say, I'm amixed race, gay woman who grew
(01:57):
up on a council estate, but I'mwilling to put myself in the
firing line to make changehappen is struggle where your
courage comes from
100%. Like, that's to answerthat quote. And your question.
I think it is, I think that
(02:20):
oh, God, where do I start? Ithink from the beginning. I
mean, do you know what it couldeven go back to my birth I was
born two months premature andstop breathing and was getting
rushed to hospital in anambulance when I started
breathing again. And I was like,two pounds or something like
(02:41):
three pounds something? Yeah.
Amazing.
And that's why my mom called meEve. And so I think you know,
when when you look at traumafrom things like that at birth,
(03:05):
because I've always lookedlooking back now I've always
wondered like, Why am I alwaysin this like state was always
been in a certain state. And Ithink it's got to do with fight
or flight. And obviously, if yougo through trauma, it produces a
lot more cortisol in your body,which is, you know,
neurologically affects yourphysical state. So I think that
(03:29):
might have had something to dowith it. I don't know, though.
But possibly born a fighter.Yeah, literally, like that's in
simple terms. Yeah. I think thatwas born. And that's pretty much
all I know. Not in a negativeway. Because, you know, my
(03:49):
life's been great. As much asit's been tough. It's been tough
times. I think growing up with asingle parent was like, I
wouldn't want it any other way.On one hand, because I loved you
know, I didn't want for nothingwe used to do. Like Sunday's
(04:10):
dance to records and reggae. Mymom bought up on reggae and, you
know, had a great foundation, mynan and granddad's. We've got
that every Sunday, I would spendtime with my granddad in the
allotment. From a kid, we stillhave his allotment now he's
passed. It's a tradition that mydaughter goes up there. Do you
know I mean, it's somethingYeah, so there's been a
foundation. You know, mygranddad were Irish and my mom
(04:33):
and grandpa were Irish andScottish show. There was a lot
of Celtic, you know, it was areal, I wasn't lacking. But I
think what, what created the thepain in that sense is I on my
father's side, I'm the youngestof five girls. And they all had
(04:57):
some form of relationship withhim growing up and except for
me. Wow. Not because I guess hewent out of his way to. But, you
know, I don't know if their momswere just more pushing on them
or whatever. I don't know. Idon't know the situation. But my
mom was very, very strong woman.And after seeing me, pining for
(05:22):
him and him promising to comewhen I was like four, and not
turning up so many times and mebeing left was, you know, asking
where he is. She made adecision, and probably the best
decision that she ever made. AndI even to this day, I remember
asking him for Mr. Frosty. Youremember Mr. Frosties? I do.
(05:45):
Yeah. And I never got it. Inever got I say, yeah, yeah, so
I think that, you know, but thenagain, on the on the other side
of that there was, you know, mysisters, dad, my sister is five
years older than me. And he, healways took me under his wing,
like he knew I was at hisobviously, they weren't even
(06:08):
together. But my my sisters, Dadalways got me birthday cards,
money, Christmas cards, Eastereggs, when he came on family
holidays with us and bananagranddad, you know, I mean, we'd
go to dim church every year withmy mom, my mom's sister, her
kids. And that's always a nice,you know, there was tradition in
(06:31):
our family, we would do. Sothere was structure there and
stuff. So I didn't miss out inthat sense, but it was an
emotional pain. Of Yeah, why,you know, why? Why me? Why
doesn't he want me? And then,you know, I took on some of, I
guess my mum struggles as well,you know, being a white woman
(06:51):
having kids of color, sheexperienced some stuff with
family like disowning her andall of that stuff. So I, inside
of me somewhere was I'm going toprove myself for and I'm going
to make my mom proud. And I'm,you know, that it growing up was
my message in my head. I'm gonnado this, because of this, you
(07:14):
know? Yeah. And it was never anegative thing. It was just it
kind of added to the drive. AndI think anyone, if you look at
anyone who is successful oranything today, they will always
say to you, there's got to be anend point, there's got to be
something that drives you tofulfill what you want. And that
was my drive. Yeah. You know, Isucceeded, like my mom's super
(07:38):
proud of me. And and I succeededin that.
Oh, yeah, there's, there's lotsof successes, too. But what's
interesting already, is thatit's such an interesting
description, actually, of yourchildhood experience, because
your sisters dad was obviouslyvery, very inclusive. So that's
(07:59):
a really positive experience,and you had a solid foundation
with your family. But as yousay, like your mom's own
experience, you know, of somefamily rejection, and we start
creeping into the territory ofdiscrimination and prejudice,
you know, towards mixed racefamilies. You know, that
experience of exclusion, youknow, and you've, you've kind of
(08:23):
experienced both,
you know, my mom alsoexperienced abuse from from both
our fathers. So that's a wholeother story. Do not I mean, so
there's a lot there. Thathappened as well. Which is why
she's so strong, and why she puther foot down and why she
protected us.
Yeah, and you've got such aclear identity in terms of your
(08:45):
own strength and courage,perhaps from your mum was
strength and courage.
Yeah, that's literally where itcomes from that my my fat my nan
and granddad, my family is fromthat. Yeah, definitely. And
obviously, my own personalitybuilt into that.
Yeah, there is something thatstands out in your childhood to
(09:10):
I don't know if you particularlywant to go too close to this
because it's a trauma. So youtell me what you'd like to talk
about. But it was reallyshocking to read about your
experience of a of a loss of aboyfriend at the age of 14. And
I just wondered if you mightwant to talk a little bit about
(09:30):
that because I do think all ofthese formative childhood
experiences are so significantas to what's built who you are
today and and that sense ofbravery that you have.
Yeah, it was it was hard. It waswe had so is his name is Roland
Adams. And we he's literallyjust had his 41st anniversary.
(09:58):
So as as kids we would we wouldhang around in this place called
Thamesmead, which is just likenot far from where I live. And
it was hugely racist, hugely,like there was a group of boys
and men that would hang outsideof a pub called the wild Fowler.
(10:19):
And they were, they were knownto be racist. And every time we
there was a load of us,obviously, we were predominantly
black mixed race. But we werejust doing our thing, you know,
just teenagers. And every timethe bus would go past, there'd
be bottles thrown at the boss,or they chase it, you know, so
(10:41):
there'd be times that, you know,we would be like telling the bus
driver not to stop or we'd haveto get off a different bus stop
sometimes. I remember I startedhaving to duck and run through
field. One of our friends hadalready been stabbed by one of
them, and survived. Anotherfriend had to jump off the same
(11:07):
place where rollin died, he,they chased him, and he had to
jump off to kind of get awayfrom them. And we've been to the
police, obviously, we're like,you know, what are you gonna do?
And they they just weren't doingnothing and potentially saying,
you know, they can't do anythinguntil they get a body, you know,
until something happens. untilit's too late. Yeah. And then,
(11:28):
you know, rolling Adams was themost soft hearted, kindest,
like, innocent. Boy, he wasliterally coming from the Youth
Center with his brother Nathan.And we sort of go around to his,
(11:49):
and he was a producer as well,music producer, you make stuff
in his bedroom, and he wrappedas well. And he do some
performance, we'd have a localthing down here. And he would
perform there. And you know, itwas great. And so yeah, we would
go and write write stuff. And itwas just that that's what he
what he was, if he was alive nowhe'd be a fantastic producer. I
(12:11):
can only imagine
and he was lost to an attack.Yeah. So
they were on their way home fromthe youth club at waiting at the
bus stop. And they just attackedthem. And Nathan, they split up
made for man, one way he rananother and he got stabbed in
the neck and collapsed on theflyover. So he lived the other
(12:34):
side of the flyover. So he wasrunning up it. And he died on
the actual on the top of theroundabout.
Was there any justice for theattack?
Not really. No. I brought totrial. They were but not not.
What should have happened,though. I think most of them got
(12:54):
away with it. I can't remembernow. But yeah, I think the whole
George Floyd thing bought up alot. Because you go through life
and you push stuff down, don'tyou knew you and then that
happened. And I remember like, Iwas literally crying for two
weeks straight. You know? Yeah.Because it just bought up all of
(13:16):
this stuff that I'd I'd like putaway because then after that
Stephen Lawrence got got killed,and he just lives, you know, 15
minutes away. Yeah, yeah, thatwas two years offense.
Yeah. And there's just twothings that just really stand
out where, you know, the factthat when your identity becomes
(13:43):
a risk, because of racialprejudice, but also, with such
traumatic events like this, yoursense of justice must just rage
on. Yeah. And, of course, somuch of your work, particularly
around the unheard campaign,which we'll talk about more as
(14:05):
we go on. Yeah, it's so muchabout justice. When you look
back at that event, now, wouldyou say that anger has turned
into your sense of justice?
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I thinkI think growing up, I would,
(14:25):
there was a lot of anger in me.I think it was, it was mixed
with him. Like because I'm veryemotive, I'm highly emotional,
as well, and hugely sensitive toenergy. And so you can imagine
some of the states that I wouldhave got in, you know, growing
(14:46):
up as a teenager hormoneimbalance anyway, I have like a
lot of health problems as well,you know, trying to navigate my
way through that and fulfill mydreams and goals and You know,
adapt to a world that I findpainful? Yeah, it's tough.
(15:09):
It's a lot of struggle, isn'tit? Yeah. And yet, you kind of
did this amazing, fast trackinto, you know, early fame and
success. You know, which, youknow, for for listeners who
aren't familiar, you might wantto talk a little bit about that
(15:30):
because it really was like arocket taking off. And, you
know, you kind of went fromprivate jets to drive in trains,
and unexpected to directory.Everyone's
(15:52):
everyone's so like, every time Itold tell people as a train
driver, they're like, What?
They just don't, they don't getit. But
she though you're driving yourown train of life. But it's such
a distinct story, you know, andin the intro, when I refer to
the fact that there was adramatic life change, but you
really had experienced theprivate jet world of fame hadn't
(16:15):
yet Oh, yeah.
I mean, on the grand scale, youknow, if you're, if you're
talking the Beyonce range,nowhere near but there was more
more than enough, like famethere for me to be recognized by
our fans and stuff like that.And obviously, you know, when
(16:37):
you were talking the 90s, youknow, things were very different
when you're an artist in the90s, you know, the record label
would, would fit the bills foreverything and, you know, you'd
get paid for DMS and stuff. Soin the first group, I I
basically went straight fromfrom the BRIT School and got
(16:57):
signed to Polly door in Ibasically took someone's place
who's one of my very goodfriends now. And she's a singer
on Strictly Come Dancing. And sowe I, yeah, we ended up kind of
working, touring, you know, allover England and Europe. We told
(17:21):
the Backstreet Boys a boy's ownit's our first time doing
Wembley, Peter Andre, all of theradio one road shows back in the
day. And we went to Atlanta andworked with Jermaine Dupri, who
is responsible for you know,Mariah Carey's albums, and he's
married to Janet Jackson forquite a long time as well. So,
(17:41):
you know, when we, we went tohis house to record and that was
a massive deal in the 90s. Andthen in the second group, we
toured all over, you know,Japan, Asia, Singapore,
Malaysia, Philippines. Yeah, allof those places. And Europe as
well with like, five and, andyes, we we still have like the
(18:06):
most played Christmas, single,today. 20 years later, over 20
years. Yeah,
amazing. Yeah. So yeah, it was anational favorite, isn't it?
Yeah. In Denmark, it is. Yeah.And so yeah, I'm super grateful
for, for that. I mean, and I waslucky enough in 2018, to go and
(18:31):
perform for the first time in 18years. On stage, and, you know,
my ex was pregnant with ourdaughter at the time. And it
was, it was the best year of mylife, you know, to be able to
get up there for me in front of16,000 people for the first time
in 18 years was just insane.
Yeah. Because, of course, youcould say that, you know, fast
(18:54):
train of fame and success hadkind of it crashed, you know,
things changed, you know, newdecisions were made about, you
know, the band and but that thatwas a hard adjustment, wasn't
it?
Well, yeah, I basically gotdepression that literally
smacked me in the face. Andwe're talking 2000 I came back
(19:14):
to the UK. And depression wasn'teven a thing. You know, I
didn't, no one really knew whatit was. No one spoke about it.
And I came home. And I'd gonefrom all my friends being out
there living this life, being onmorning television, to having to
pay to get on a bus. Now thinkabout it. I've gone straight
(19:38):
from the BRIT School to this Ihadn't even had a job in it. I
mean, I've had a peek around andwork for my uncle and his calf,
but, you know, not not an actualjob in the world as a teenager
or anything like that. So youknow, by the time I come home,
I'm in my early 20s. And I'mlike what's going on and it is
(20:00):
The I felt like such a failurebecause I'd had to come back.
And also the environment was,you know, so depressing. Like I
came back and like to like,literally the week I got back
that some people had beenmurdered in their house like
down the road and I was like,ah, you know, it was just dire
(20:27):
you know, my friends weren'there anymore, you know? And I
was like
so really extreme rollercoaster. Did it make you did it
make you feel vulnerable,isolated.
I did not know what was goingon. I I couldn't understand what
was happening to me. I triedeverything I decorated my house
(20:50):
the same, you know, colors andeverything that it would in
Denmark. I went to the gym. Igot put on antidepressants and
I've gone through I don't knowhow many I remember they put me
on the finger. It was Prozac andI was like yawning like
constantly within and I was likeI can't do this. I can't you
know are the ones made me worse.You know, they eventually I was
(21:14):
on something called I was oncitalopram. They made me awful.
And then I found sertraline,which which are the ones that
worked for me. And but allthrough this, I was still
pushing forward, I'd gone andsigned up for college, I wanted
to do production, I wanted tostart my own company, or then
signed up to to, to universityto study to become a sound
(21:39):
engineer, all through havingdepression. And trying to really
like hold on to my identity andnot know what was happening what
you know, people were saying tome, I'll Don't worry, you'll be
fine. Just get over it. That wasworse people out there. Back
then you didn't know not to saythat to a depressed person. I
was like, you're making meworse, like my poor mum didn't
(22:01):
have a clue what to do with me.You know, obviously her way is
like hard, you know, get over itor get under it type. You know.
And that doesn't work withsomeone who's got depression, I
always say you know, my podcast,too, if you are around anyone
that suffers from from mentalillness, like just don't, don't
(22:21):
ask them for anything. Don't askthem a question. Because it's
too hard for them to answer.Just hug them. Don't say
anything, don't
say snap out of it.
Don't say anything, just hugthem. And in a lot of the time,
you'll get resistance, but justhold on. And it will it will
mellow.
It's such a big process. Butthat's what really stands out to
(22:44):
me. Knowing that you had hitdeep depression. extremity is
such a hard thing to process.Yeah. And yet, as you said, you
were actually still findingreally constructive things to do
and you kept moving. Where doyou think that came from? Do you
(23:04):
think this goes back to thoseformative childhood years of
just having to fight just to geton just having to be courageous?
Yeah,
I don't know any other way? Idon't know any other way with
me. I can't. If I sit theredoing nothing. I question my
(23:26):
purpose of life. And it's justnot an option for me. It's not
in my makeup. Like, it's thesame as if I couldn't sit and do
the same job. Every single day.I can't because I will start
questioning what is the point oflife? You know, why am I here?
What am What am I doing? What amI doing it for? Who am I
(23:48):
helping? And the thing is, Irealized if I'm not good,
mentally, and if I'm notfulfilling me, everyone around
me gets affected.
Yeah, cuz I relate to whatyou're saying from the point of
view of being in a workingclass, single parent family,
that it's ironic perhaps thatthere can be advantage and
(24:11):
disadvantage in that it doesteach you resilience. It does
teach you if you want somethingdoing then go on and do it. And
I'd rather that than be a twitin a velvet Alice band with
cushions that doesn't reallyknow how to make things happen.
And that seems to be what I'mhearing from you.
(24:33):
Yeah. I mean, it's funnybecause, you know, I'm just
going through another journey,which I'm describing, as, you
know, like being in the birthcanal or being the butterfly in
the cocoon. Stage, the awkward,uncomfortable stage that, you
(24:53):
know, the wriggling the, youknow, when a baby's coming down
the birth canal, it's painful.It's uncomfortable. was
distressing is all of thisstuff. And that's like a point
in my life where I'm at now. Butthe difference is, I can look
back. And I'm realizing, becauseI'm like, Yeah, I did all of
(25:16):
these things. And I've always, Ijust haven't stopped. And I've
got the drive, I've got thepassion, I've got the will. But
why is nothing ever reallystuck? You know? Why? Why is
nothing ever continued? Youknow, we after leaving
university, I set up a recordingstudio was one of the girls from
(25:38):
university, and it was topromote female producers and we
work with disadvantaged kids.And this was in 2003. Yeah, and
I did a stint in camp America aswell, while we're at uni.
God, but yes, you're so lazy.
(26:00):
Oh, great experience and amazingexperience that was but you
know, nothing stayed. And I'mlike, I always I've realized I
always depended on other peopleto help me succeed. And I always
relied on that. Because I didn'tever think I was good enough to
(26:23):
do it on my own. Right, how howYin and Yang is that how like,
contradictory that I've got thisall this energy and all this
push and drive.
But that sense, is it a sense ofinadequacy or lack of confidence
that surprises you? Every nowand then
I don't I have confidence, butjust this this inner confidence.
(26:46):
And I don't know if that comesfrom, you know, being told
you're not good enough. Or, youknow, all of those years of you
know, I don't know, like as akid, my sister used to be
stunning. You know, she's one ofthose, you know, beautiful mixed
race kids. She looked like it'dbe like Chardonnay growing up,
(27:06):
you know, then you've got me,lanky, by Imagine, only boy,
right? Yeah.
Olive oil or Adam, because myname is Eve, and I was a tomboy.
So can you imagine and the thingthat will never leave me is that
(27:29):
are your sisters beautiful, likewhat happened to you? You know,
so it's comments like that,yeah. That stick to you. And,
you know, things like, onlybeing in the girl group and then
getting bullied in the girlgroup. And you know, all of
these other things. There's somany other factors that would
have, you know, racism, growingup. Just all of these other
(27:52):
things that society has thrown,you would be battling against my
will and my drive andconfidence. And that would give
me the, or, you know, the lackof confidence to believe in
myself, even though I do it's soweird to explain. I do believe
in myself. But in the core.There's something that makes me
(28:15):
rely on other people to feelthat, you know, I need them to
achieve very strange. Yeah, it's
a really complex combination,because you clearly know how to
be courageous. Yeah. And I thinkone of the disadvantages,
(28:35):
actually, sometimes when peopleare perceived as strong or
courageous, he says, it's kindof assumed that you just are
courageous, you just are brave.And actually, it's something
that you have to find. And soyou can be a complex person
who's courageous, but lacksinner confidence is your own
(28:56):
battleground, isn't it? And it'sinteresting, because I know that
when we talk about identity, andthat battleground of, you know,
racial discrimination, and anidentity or experience growing
up, you've you've often saidthat it's assumed you're a
(29:20):
gangster rapper. It is. Yeah,no, I mean, wrong people
stereotyping identity or what?But the mind is so quick to slap
these labels on. Yeah, so you'rethe gangster rap. Yeah.
You know me, obviously. Am Ianything happy
love songs. soppy love so youpick out softy?
(29:47):
The complete opposite, isn't it?Like I am like I will cry. Kate
Bush covers this is how I madelike, I couldn't be a gangster
rapper if I try. Like even if Itry really hard, I'd probably be
able to pose like one. But
it's, it's funny because I thinkgrowing up obviously on the
(30:09):
council's there is a side of methat is very, you know, not to
turn, you know, don't. Andthat's a side of me that I've
tried to kind of not get rid ofbecause it's who I am. But I
don't need to. I don't want tohave that aggression there that,
you know, I moved away from thata long time ago, and learned to
become calm. And you know, it'sstill always a work in progress.
(30:32):
But, you know, I never just liketoday the situation that I had
today, I'm standing therewatching two grown women have
this full blown argument becauseone gave the other one a dirty
look, one's got four kids. AndI've took my headphones out and
I'm like, we're in the middle ofa war in Europe, like, love
(30:55):
people love, you know, like,love. Honestly, it's there's it
what this is, what is this ispointless, like, love. You know,
it's all about your frequencythat you resonate at. And I've
been in that place for a longtime. Yeah, I still get angry.
But,
you know, yeah, yeah. But it is.I mean, you know, I know we can
(31:18):
you know, we laugh because it isso ridiculous. The whole
gangster rapper thing, but it'spointing at that problem of
stereotyping, isn't it? And howquick minds get tricked into
automatic thinking.
Yeah, I guess I typed all thetime, all the time. Like, you
know, especially when I wasworking on trains. It was it was
(31:39):
they'd be like, oh, yeah, she'sgot attitude. But then you'd
you'd have like an Italian girlguy, mental. Next silly swearing
out. And they'd laugh becauseshe's a hot headed Italian. And
they find it
funny. Yeah. But because
I won't allow someone to call mea C, u and T or swear at me.
(32:01):
Because that's a that's justeveryone's it's just the
environment of of that that workenvironment. Yeah, you know, I
had to, I came from working atApple where everything's about
customer service, to having toswear in my vocabulary to fit
in. And you do you adapt to yourenvironment, don't you? Because
(32:22):
I wouldn't allow it. And thenI'm the one with the attitude.
Yeah, amazing, isn't it? How?
I've never gone in withoutsaying hi, how is everyone
polite, which I've been taughtby my my mum and my
grandparents, you respect yourelders, you know. And another
(32:43):
thing I would never ever start afight ever, in my life never
have been in fights. Where I'mprotecting myself or other
people, but never started one.The amount of times I've been
punched in the face by men. Wow.Because a random man decides to
walk past and slap mygirlfriend's backside. And then
(33:03):
when I questioned it, I getpunched in the face.
Yeah, no, it's astonishing,isn't it? It really is
astonishing. And you know, thisthese level of sexual politics,
identity politics, you know,exists. How does all this change
Eve? When we meet you now, akamagpie? What's your experience?
(33:27):
Yeah, what's your experience nowis your artist name is magpie.
Maybe tell us a bit about youknow, the CO writing, you know,
you've done some reallyimpressive work. How does it
feel to be magpie? If you likeand in terms of identity?
Well, I mean, the reason Iliterally chose that name is
(33:51):
because I identify with it on somany different ways. I mean,
obviously be a mixed race and mypies black and white. I believe
very much in the universe,frequency, and that, you know,
everything in this universe isfrequency. And we resonate at
(34:17):
certain frequencies andobviously, black and white
aren't colors, theirfrequencies, but all colors
frequency, but you know, soyeah, I resonate with it on that
as well. And I just think, yeah,it was just I just really liked
(34:37):
the name and because I'm, Ireleased things now not because
I want to be an artist. Do younot? I mean, I don't want to be
a performing artist. Should Isay I release because I have to
express. So I just put them outthere and I don't care what
happens to them. I know thatsounds really crazy. But I had a
(35:02):
massive hang up for so longbecause being an artist was my
job, it was my profession, thatit took me so long to let go of
the fact that it had to be anumber one, or it had to be in
the charts, or it had to be, youknow, doing so well, for me to
(35:23):
be, you know, able to hold thename of an artist and I feel the
same with production andsongwriting as well, I think,
you know, because it'd be mycareer, I blocked myself through
my depression as well, when Ikept thinking I was a failure.
Because I was holding on to thisfake belief of, you know, it has
(35:46):
to be in the charts before youcan call yourself a producer,
songwriter, or an artist and itdoesn't, the minute you write,
so, the minute you write stuffdown on paper and record it, you
know, on a phone or whatever,you know, you can call yourself
so why on the same as aproducer, you have to be
producing for known artists, or,you know, it's there's so many
(36:08):
different things like and Ithink, you know, that's why I
chose that. artist name andyeah, so now I just I do things
for me. And the
CO writing credits are, I mean,they are impressive.
Yeah, yeah. So I've written withMoe pleasure, who's he calls me
(36:31):
Big Little sis now actually, forwe we went on a somewhat in
retreat and really connected andhe's obviously, you know,
written and performed with withloads of people like Michael
Jackson. And he's Brett MEDLARS.I think, producer and what's his
(36:52):
famous band he worked through?can't ever remember the name of
wind and fire. Oh, wow. Yeah.And Maria Christiansen who wrote
J. Lo's massive hit paddyMcGuinness of COVID written with
a lot of people. And yes, I lovesong. I think songwriting is the
(37:17):
most amazing thing, both for itscraft, and you know, your mental
health. Yeah. In terms of
expression.
Yeah. It's so vital and key. Youknow, and I use it in my
program. Yeah. So yeah, it's ait's so important.
(37:43):
It does stand out that your lifeis kind of an extreme roller
coaster, because, you know, wewere talking about the tough
childhood stuff, then hittingthe early fame and success, then
that changing in that period ofdepression, but actually, even
then, you were constructivelystudying University starting the
(38:03):
studio. And now Paul says, Youwere just telling us, you've
been successfully working as anartist and as a co writer, aka
Magpie, you know, with reallyimpressive credits. So it just
seems to me like the rollercoaster is, you know, on a high
again, you know, it's going up.But of course, this time, your
(38:28):
purpose is even clearer becauseyou've launched the campaign.
And I wonder, for the sake ofthe listeners, if you want to
give some context on
that, yeah, sure. I mean, youknow, I, obviously, being in the
train driver for for like sixmonths, it was actually a
shunter. Shunta is called. It'scalled a Shana. But also a depo.
(38:53):
Assistant. It's the person whobasically helped with the trains
in the Depo. So it was nightwork, and it was very, you know,
nonstop, you uncoupling trains,pulling them apart, doing safety
checks, you know, and then Ibecame a trainer in that in that
role and an assessor, and Istudied mechanical engineering.
(39:17):
And that's when I kind of like,you know, because I'm Catholic
as well. But what by studyingmechanical engineering, one of
the first things that I readwas, in the first section was
matter can't be created ordestroyed. And I was just like,
you know, because I was like,you know, yes, I'm religious,
but religion for me had a lot ofissues being gay and all that
(39:40):
other stuff. Yeah. Andrestrictions and also seeing
people that were Catholic, butnot acting well, and acting with
love and just all of the issuesthat man made religion has on
this world today. And this justkind of took it to a higher
level and I was like, Oh my god.You know, it's just bigger than
(40:01):
that. But anyway, I tried tomake that job, you know, work
for me and be as meaningful asit could. But essentially, like,
I was like, My soul was dying, Ifelt like a circle trying to fit
into a square, I need to getout. And I ended up leaving and
getting some counselling, someCBT, again, been for a lot of
(40:22):
bullying in that place. Andstress, and part of it, you
know, could be because I'msomeone who's outspoken, and I
won't allow people to act badly.And I can't sit down and let
things I just can't do it. Ican't be the person that just
lets stuff happen knowing thingsare wrong, and people are acting
(40:44):
wrong, can't do it. So anyway, Iended up like just jumping, as I
have to get back into music. Andyeah, then I started to pick
music, UK. And originally, Istarted it because I wanted to
provide production forsongwriters. Because being both
(41:04):
I realized that a lot somewhatas don't have the confidence in
a studio environment. They don'tknow the language that producers
use. I know both. So I wanted tobridge that gap for them so that
they could go in broaden theirtool pool. And also, I was
starting to do some writingretreats friend of mines got a
beautiful house in the mountainsin Italy. And that was all going
(41:26):
great. And then COVID happened.And you know, I've managed to
run one workshop, which isgreat. It's sold out. And the
retreat was fully booked. But Ihad to obviously refund everyone
because it didn't happen. Andthen I had to think great. I've
just started this company. Andnow I can't do anything in
person. Because everything wasin place to continue. Yeah. And
(41:50):
so I was sat there going, whatdo I do? Like what? What am I
supposed to do, I'd beenperforming and everything that
will got canceled. And, and so Ireally had to look at myself and
my journey. And I had been onthis like mastermind Business
Mastermind. And it made me lookat what, why I'm doing what I'm
(42:15):
doing now. And then look at mytrends over the years. And one
of the I realized thateverything that I had done in
every single job was trainingand mentoring. First of all,
always, when I was at Apple, Ibecame a mentor on a trainer,
train driver trainer. When I runmy own business, in the studio,
(42:36):
we would train young kids, youknow, and teach them how to use
logic. And you know, everythingwas the same. The other thing
was women in music. It wasanother real massive passion of
mine. disadvantaged kids, andLGBTQ plus community. And I was
like, Yeah, I'm reallypassionate about them. So I
(42:57):
really kind of looked at all ofthat around those things. It was
like, like, my business needs toaddress these issues. And then
when the campaign was bought,born, I looked at the last 20
years. So when I studied to be asound engineer, I was one of six
women and the only one of color.Pretty much 20 years later, the
(43:21):
statistics for female producersis 2%. It fluctuates between two
and three. And I was like whatthe hell has been going on?
Like, I've pretty much not evenreally been in the industry is
doing, you know, actively.
And nothing's changed. And thereare a lot of like, Facebook's
right, the word women that hadset up companies and stuff that
(43:43):
we're doing making movesalready. So I was kind of coming
from the back in that sense, I'mstill pretty much a class was
held was running up from theback still. Because the you
know, making great waves. But Iwas like, How can I do some?
It's all good me being in thesegroups and talking about it, but
what can I do? What action can Itake and that's when I started
(44:06):
the campaign. And my aim was tojust have a T shirt campaign,
that can be a visual campaignwhere everyone can get on board.
It's not just you know, all ofthese women that are already
doing stuff in these amazingcompanies and these these, you
know, Facebook groups and stuff,they can all get on board and we
can kind of show solidaritytogether and raise awareness for
(44:29):
this issue. So yes, that's
true London representation,isn't it? Right? Yes. The music
industry.
Yeah. And it's kind of led methen to then you know, just the
more I've spoken out the moreI've kind of become put myself
in spaces so I'm I'm arepresentative for the UK Music
(44:50):
diversity task force. So the 10point plan across the whole
music industry to make changesyou know in diversity I'm As a
representative for the MusicProducers Guild on that, you
know, and I'm speaking up a lotmore in those areas. And it's
(45:11):
just so important to, for me tobe present and visible for young
women, trans non binary peoplewho might identify with someone
of color that is in that space.So they know that that music
production, sound engineering,there are options for them as
(45:32):
careers, which is what also I doa lot of stuff with schools and
universities as well, becauseit's about changing things, you
know, universities, on theirperspective, what are they
showing a white man leaning overa desk, it's not going to
attract women is it will attractanyone of color, either, you
know, and so it's these smallthings and these changes that
(45:54):
need to be and that's why when Isaid in that quote, I'm not
going to shut up, it's like mytime was done. You know, I've
done what I want to do in termsof I've done the career I've
achieved, I need to my purpose,I feel is to give back to raise
awareness to shout, to makechange this, even if it's a
(46:15):
smallest part I can do. That,for me is what my life has to be
about. And obviously having mydaughter now even more so.
And it's exactly what we quotedat the beginning, where you say,
I'm willing to put myself in thefiring line to make change
happen. And it's interestingthat you talk about purpose,
because that's certainlyrecognized by neuroscientists
(46:38):
and psychologists, in the spaceof mental health, that having a
clear purpose is really healthyfor our minds. And that really
seems to be such a crystal cleardriving force for you. Whether
it's artistic purpose, orwhether it's about justice or
raising awareness. It seems thatwould you say, its purpose?
(47:05):
Where is where your courage sitsbest?
Maybe, maybe? I don't know. It'shard, because I always know I'm
an ideas pose, I have so manyideas all the time. Like, it's
exhausting. But beautiful,beautiful at the same time, but
I think that I've gotten I'vealways been someone you know,
(47:33):
it's very hard, because whenyou're around, or in an
environment where people aren'tas courageous as you. And this
is where I realized that I've,I've kind of, you know, going
back to me saying that I my selfbelief is not great, because I
questioned myself so much,because of what other people
(47:55):
say. And then I doubted myselfdown as a result. Because
they're telling me that Ishouldn't be like that. So
therefore, I'm like, goingagainst my natural thing. And my
natural thing is to speak out,always it has been since I've
been a kid, I'm not the type ofperson who's going to sit and
(48:18):
let things lie. But when you'retold by, you know, people that
around you that, that love you,or supposed to love you and care
about you that, you know, you'reembarrassing them, because
you're being too loud, or, youknow, you're you know, you've
always there's always an issue,there's always something, you
know, it makes and being asensitive person. It hurts. So
(48:43):
then I'm like, well, thenthere's something wrong with me.
But the reality is, they'rereflecting their reality on me.
And their limitations on me.Because it's not something they
would do, they wouldn't go outand speak because they don't
have the balls. They won't goout and say something, because
(49:04):
it's just our noses leave it,you know, it's not it's not
really, you know, they might notthink it's their place or that
they shouldn't do it. Buteveryone should speak up when
something is not right.
Everyone that not everyone hasthe courage to do it.
Yeah. But they're very, they'vegot enough courage to tell you
that you shouldn't be doing it.Yeah, and I'm realizing, in my
(49:27):
young 45 years that these thesehave been some of my issues.
I've listened too much to peoplethat have got limiting beliefs
and limiting behavior. And Idon't fit into that mold. Yeah,
I just don't fit into it and butI've surrounded myself with
those people, unfortunately. Andbe loyal to those people because
(49:53):
I'm also a very loyal person,but loyalty does not get you
anywhere. If it's to the wrongperson. That's another thing
I've learned. I've gotten Needto write this stuff down? All
these revelations just comingout?
Yeah, a cinch is suchinteresting territory to talk
about. And when it is actuallyrevealing things to yourself
(50:14):
even you know, it's it's, itshows you, doesn't it the
importance of reflection andself reflection, you know,
sometimes is the role ofmindfulness, but any kinds of
talking therapy, it's reallyimportant, isn't it to be able
to sort of go back and observeand rethink, and not just have
(50:34):
the same thoughts. And I thinkwhat you're doing with the
unheard music campaign is soliberating on so many levels in
terms of how you're giving voiceand raising voice raising
visibility, and that it'sactually a great act of
compassion, because it'sincreasingly important, though,
is the compassion Institute.Now, you know, where
(50:58):
neuroscientists in psychology,so recognizing that compassion
isn't the role of empathy andfeeling sympathetic, for
example. It's the role ofaction. And that's where your
emphasis is, I want to dosomething about this about this
structural inequality in themusic industry. And, you know,
(51:21):
your your courage is also a hugeact of compassion.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't seeit that way, though. I mean,
because when you're doing it,you don't look, you don't? Do
you know, you don't like putlabels on it? You just You just
do it? Because it's right.
(51:43):
Yeah, yeah. What are your hopesfor the unheard music campaign?
Well, I mean, you know, I thinkthere's massive change already
happening. Slowly, but it'shappening, you know, it really,
really is happening. And I'mjust grateful to be be in it,
(52:07):
you know, like, it's thismassive waves going, like this
year. And I'm, like, one of thelittle molecules in this wave,
go, Oh, hey, you know, I'mhelping in my little way. And
that, that, you know, I mean,like, that means so much. I'm in
this move, you know, thismovement of change is happening,
(52:28):
and I'm a part of it. And, and,yeah, you know, that's kind of
for me is like, my little legacythat I can hand down to, to my
daughter and be like, you know,what, you know, I helped in my
little way with that. And, youknow, I did what I could to
raise awareness and make change.And, you know, it's the same
(52:49):
way, you know, with my podcast,and when I talk about, you know,
it goes even further into, youknow, all the stuff we've been
talking about today, like,anyone who's been unheard in any
level. It provides them aplatform to, to tell their
story, because, you know, justlike I'm telling my story here,
that's another reason why Istarted it. Because so many
(53:10):
people started hearing me talk,and it like resonated with them
in some way. And yeah, it justmade me realize, and it's
another reason for me not toshut up.
Well, you're reducing a lot Iimagine of isolation, you know,
a lot of women who feeldisconnected or isolated, and I
(53:34):
equally wanted as positive as itis spearheading that unheard
campaign is whether leadershipis lonely at all.
I'm so lonely right now. I'mgonna lie. I think because but I
think when anybody is trying to,to do anything, and be
(53:59):
successful at it, they've got tobe lonely. I think it's just
been magnified because of mylife situation. You know, we've,
we've my breakup myrelationship, and having a
little baby toddler hasn'thelped. But, you know, when
people want you to go somewhere,you've got to really focus on
(54:24):
what is going to move youforward. And the energy that you
want to be around and you whenyou're running a business on
your own or whatever, there hasto be consistency. And, you
know, if I'm not consistent thenit's just not going to work. You
(54:47):
know, so it's lonely. It islonely and obviously when you're
running a business from home onyour own Yeah, it is, but you
have to go back in those reallyhigh times you know, where you
might be crying and being like,what am I doing it for life is
so hard life's crap. You know,I've got no one I feel so alone.
(55:10):
No one phones, me no one,there's no one that why am I
doing it? What is it for? Youknow, and again, I've learned
when you know, and thisobviously is a message to
listeners as well wheneveryou're feeling in that space,
and I can attach it to whenyou're depressed. Depression is
a very selfish space. And I sayselfish not meaning that it's an
(55:36):
intention or selfish spacebecause you can't control it.
But it's a very selfish disease,because everything that happens
in your mind is all about you.Why is no one contacted me? Why
am I this? Why me? Why me? Whyam I the one that doesn't get
the success? Why is it everyoneelse? Why me why me and you end
up in this? In it, you justcan't see a way out and it gets
(55:59):
so overwhelming. And everythingis just becomes you expectation
on everyone else. So one of theways that, you know, obviously
having gone through it, you canlook above down into it. Now
when you can see what'shappening, you can quickly catch
yourself and manage it. Soinstantly, whenever I feel like
that, I'll do something thatI'll go outside and smile at
(56:21):
everyone. Or I will be like, whyam I doing this? What's it for?
Who's it for? I think about mydaughter. And then I think about
you know, my mum and what she'sbeen through and you know, all
the people that might need tohear what I've got to say or,
you know, if I can help oneperson listening to something,
(56:42):
that's the reason I have to doit. And that's why I have to
spend longer. And that's why Ihave to be alone in this moment.
Going back to being in thecocoon, or the birth canal, that
uncomfortable, awkward, painfulplace is where I'm at right now.
And when you know that you canembrace it, and you have these
moments, you can manage themmuch better and, you know, have
(57:05):
the hope and the faith thatyou're going to fly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's reallygenuinely impressive and
exceptionally kind in terms ofhow you maintain your purpose.
(57:26):
And to end because sadly, thetime goes so fast. I thought it
would be lovely to mention yourridiculously gorgeous daughter,
but I regularly asked you tohand it over to me. But if
(57:50):
you're just blunt, give me giveme just give me her with a
shield curiosity and courage issomething that you're happily
imparting, or sharing with herencouraging her to be curious in
her own life and courageous inher own life. I just wondered
(58:12):
what your thoughts were in termsof your daughter
100%. You know, I, I always, youknow, let her I'm like another
child in the house. You know,obviously, you know, I'm quite,
you know, eat your food and doall of that. But I am a child.
So we were very playful andloving. And she needs to know,
(58:35):
first of all that I love her.And she needs to feel, you know,
content and home when she's withme. But yeah, like I always, you
know, I let her do whatever sheshe wants, you know, pretty much
because she's such a good kid. Iencourage her to, you know, just
(58:58):
do whatever, as long as she'scareful. You know, then then
that's all that matters. But Iwill Oh yeah, I'll always
encourage her to be courageousand try different things and not
hold her back based on myrestrictions or my beliefs or
anything like that. Like, she'sshe's got her own life, she
needs to fly and do do herthing. And I'll just be just
(59:22):
nudging her along, you know,being there holding her hand the
whole time. And obviously, youknow, she falls get back up. And
I'm teaching her at the momentas well. One of the things is
like she's only three, but I'msaying that, you know, if she
can't do it, I'm like, what dowe do? If we can't do it? And we
try again? And what do we do ifwe can't do it? We try again.
(59:47):
And we keep trying? And then weasked for help. You know, I
mean, but you know, I'm teachingher to not give up straightaway.
You know, it's just don't allowthat to be your default. I can't
do it. Did you try? You know, sothat's where I'm at with her
right now? Yeah, yeah, she'sjust amazing. She's amazing.
(01:00:09):
Ya know, it's beautiful. And youknow, you're a fabulous mom.
You're full of creativity as anartist artists and you're kindly
courageous as the person youare, you know, investing your
life energy into this campaignin order to insist that you
(01:00:33):
always say, to insist onequality, particularly for women
across the music industry. Eve,I have to say such a huge thank
you. Not just for your time, butfor being prepared to talk. So
honestly, in particular aboutsuch painful things and even
trauma in your life. It's areally generous act. And I want
(01:00:56):
to thank you sincerely forsharing that with us today.
Some absolute pleasure,honestly, it's just, you know,
it's so easy with you because,you know, I, I just love who you
are. And, you know, you'vehelped me in so many ways, and
you're a great human beingequally. Okay, let's not forget
that. Thank you for beinggenerous again. Honest, okay,
(01:01:21):
let's see. So thank you. It'sbeen an absolute honor. Thank
you so much.
Thank you, Eve, and I'll see yousoon.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? In this series I'mtalking to artists, musicians,
filmmakers, actors, art lovers,and other creatives. I'm
exploring how curiosity andcourage not only creates great
art and fuels the arts butcultivates a healthy mind to.
(00:24):
The same attitudes havecultivated in mindfulness
practice with scientific andevidence based results in the
treatment of depression, stressand anxiety. So I'm asking, Can
art save us and help change theglobal epidemic of mental
wellness? And my guest this weekis Eve horn, a singer
(00:47):
songwriter, producer, author,award winning mentor activist
and a mum. After attending thefamous 90s BRIT School, she was
signed to Polydor and EMI herfirst band montage was described
as TLC with balls, touring withthe Backstreet Boys boys zone
and Peter Andre. She went on tojoin juice a girl group with a
(01:10):
Christmas number one single inDenmark and millions of streams
on Spotify. A dramatic lifechange followed. Today Yves
spearheads THE UNHEARD campaignfor gender equality in the music
industry. And this year, she hasbeen recognized as a future
leader by key change a globalmovement for equality. Eve,
(01:33):
thank you very, very much forjoining me today.
It's an absolute pleasure,Paula, honestly, it really,
really is. Thank you so much forhaving me. Eve, I'd really like
to start by quoting you. Becauseyou also describe yourself as a
box ticker. And you say, I'm amixed race, gay woman who grew
(01:57):
up on a council estate, but I'mwilling to put myself in the
firing line to make changehappen is struggle where your
courage comes from
100%. Like, that's to answerthat quote. And your question.
I think it is, I think that
(02:20):
oh, God, where do I start? Ithink from the beginning. I
mean, do you know what it couldeven go back to my birth I was
born two months premature andstop breathing and was getting
rushed to hospital in anambulance when I started
breathing again. And I was like,two pounds or something like
(02:41):
three pounds something? Yeah.
Amazing.
And that's why my mom called meEve. And so I think you know,
when when you look at traumafrom things like that at birth,
(03:05):
because I've always lookedlooking back now I've always
wondered like, Why am I alwaysin this like state was always
been in a certain state. And Ithink it's got to do with fight
or flight. And obviously, if yougo through trauma, it produces a
lot more cortisol in your body,which is, you know,
neurologically affects yourphysical state. So I think that
(03:29):
might have had something to dowith it. I don't know, though.
But possibly born a fighter.Yeah, literally, like that's in
simple terms. Yeah. I think thatwas born. And that's pretty much
all I know. Not in a negativeway. Because, you know, my
(03:49):
life's been great. As much asit's been tough. It's been tough
times. I think growing up with asingle parent was like, I
wouldn't want it any other way.On one hand, because I loved you
know, I didn't want for nothingwe used to do. Like Sunday's
(04:10):
dance to records and reggae. Mymom bought up on reggae and, you
know, had a great foundation, mynan and granddad's. We've got
that every Sunday, I would spendtime with my granddad in the
allotment. From a kid, we stillhave his allotment now he's
passed. It's a tradition that mydaughter goes up there. Do you
know I mean, it's somethingYeah, so there's been a
foundation. You know, mygranddad were Irish and my mom
(04:33):
and grandpa were Irish andScottish show. There was a lot
of Celtic, you know, it was areal, I wasn't lacking. But I
think what, what created the thepain in that sense is I on my
father's side, I'm the youngestof five girls. And they all had
(04:57):
some form of relationship withhim growing up and except for
me. Wow. Not because I guess hewent out of his way to. But, you
know, I don't know if their momswere just more pushing on them
or whatever. I don't know. Idon't know the situation. But my
mom was very, very strong woman.And after seeing me, pining for
(05:22):
him and him promising to comewhen I was like four, and not
turning up so many times and mebeing left was, you know, asking
where he is. She made adecision, and probably the best
decision that she ever made. AndI even to this day, I remember
asking him for Mr. Frosty. Youremember Mr. Frosties? I do.
(05:45):
Yeah. And I never got it. Inever got I say, yeah, yeah, so
I think that, you know, but thenagain, on the on the other side
of that there was, you know, mysisters, dad, my sister is five
years older than me. And he, healways took me under his wing,
like he knew I was at hisobviously, they weren't even
(06:08):
together. But my my sisters, Dadalways got me birthday cards,
money, Christmas cards, Eastereggs, when he came on family
holidays with us and bananagranddad, you know, I mean, we'd
go to dim church every year withmy mom, my mom's sister, her
kids. And that's always a nice,you know, there was tradition in
(06:31):
our family, we would do. Sothere was structure there and
stuff. So I didn't miss out inthat sense, but it was an
emotional pain. Of Yeah, why,you know, why? Why me? Why
doesn't he want me? And then,you know, I took on some of, I
guess my mum struggles as well,you know, being a white woman
(06:51):
having kids of color, sheexperienced some stuff with
family like disowning her andall of that stuff. So I, inside
of me somewhere was I'm going toprove myself for and I'm going
to make my mom proud. And I'm,you know, that it growing up was
my message in my head. I'm gonnado this, because of this, you
(07:14):
know? Yeah. And it was never anegative thing. It was just it
kind of added to the drive. AndI think anyone, if you look at
anyone who is successful oranything today, they will always
say to you, there's got to be anend point, there's got to be
something that drives you tofulfill what you want. And that
was my drive. Yeah. You know, Isucceeded, like my mom's super
(07:38):
proud of me. And and I succeededin that.
Oh, yeah, there's, there's lotsof successes, too. But what's
interesting already, is thatit's such an interesting
description, actually, of yourchildhood experience, because
your sisters dad was obviouslyvery, very inclusive. So that's
(07:59):
a really positive experience,and you had a solid foundation
with your family. But as yousay, like your mom's own
experience, you know, of somefamily rejection, and we start
creeping into the territory ofdiscrimination and prejudice,
you know, towards mixed racefamilies. You know, that
experience of exclusion, youknow, and you've, you've kind of
(08:23):
experienced both,
you know, my mom alsoexperienced abuse from from both
our fathers. So that's a wholeother story. Do not I mean, so
there's a lot there. Thathappened as well. Which is why
she's so strong, and why she puther foot down and why she
protected us.
Yeah, and you've got such aclear identity in terms of your
(08:45):
own strength and courage,perhaps from your mum was
strength and courage.
Yeah, that's literally where itcomes from that my my fat my nan
and granddad, my family is fromthat. Yeah, definitely. And
obviously, my own personalitybuilt into that.
Yeah, there is something thatstands out in your childhood to
(09:10):
I don't know if you particularlywant to go too close to this
because it's a trauma. So youtell me what you'd like to talk
about. But it was reallyshocking to read about your
experience of a of a loss of aboyfriend at the age of 14. And
I just wondered if you mightwant to talk a little bit about
(09:30):
that because I do think all ofthese formative childhood
experiences are so significantas to what's built who you are
today and and that sense ofbravery that you have.
Yeah, it was it was hard. It waswe had so is his name is Roland
Adams. And we he's literallyjust had his 41st anniversary.
(09:58):
So as as kids we would we wouldhang around in this place called
Thamesmead, which is just likenot far from where I live. And
it was hugely racist, hugely,like there was a group of boys
and men that would hang outsideof a pub called the wild Fowler.
(10:19):
And they were, they were knownto be racist. And every time we
there was a load of us,obviously, we were predominantly
black mixed race. But we werejust doing our thing, you know,
just teenagers. And every timethe bus would go past, there'd
be bottles thrown at the boss,or they chase it, you know, so
(10:41):
there'd be times that, you know,we would be like telling the bus
driver not to stop or we'd haveto get off a different bus stop
sometimes. I remember I startedhaving to duck and run through
field. One of our friends hadalready been stabbed by one of
them, and survived. Anotherfriend had to jump off the same
(11:07):
place where rollin died, he,they chased him, and he had to
jump off to kind of get awayfrom them. And we've been to the
police, obviously, we're like,you know, what are you gonna do?
And they they just weren't doingnothing and potentially saying,
you know, they can't do anythinguntil they get a body, you know,
until something happens. untilit's too late. Yeah. And then,
(11:28):
you know, rolling Adams was themost soft hearted, kindest,
like, innocent. Boy, he wasliterally coming from the Youth
Center with his brother Nathan.And we sort of go around to his,
(11:49):
and he was a producer as well,music producer, you make stuff
in his bedroom, and he wrappedas well. And he do some
performance, we'd have a localthing down here. And he would
perform there. And you know, itwas great. And so yeah, we would
go and write write stuff. And itwas just that that's what he
what he was, if he was alive nowhe'd be a fantastic producer. I
(12:11):
can only imagine
and he was lost to an attack.Yeah. So
they were on their way home fromthe youth club at waiting at the
bus stop. And they just attackedthem. And Nathan, they split up
made for man, one way he rananother and he got stabbed in
the neck and collapsed on theflyover. So he lived the other
(12:34):
side of the flyover. So he wasrunning up it. And he died on
the actual on the top of theroundabout.
Was there any justice for theattack?
Not really. No. I brought totrial. They were but not not.
What should have happened,though. I think most of them got
(12:54):
away with it. I can't remembernow. But yeah, I think the whole
George Floyd thing bought up alot. Because you go through life
and you push stuff down, don'tyou knew you and then that
happened. And I remember like, Iwas literally crying for two
weeks straight. You know? Yeah.Because it just bought up all of
(13:16):
this stuff that I'd I'd like putaway because then after that
Stephen Lawrence got got killed,and he just lives, you know, 15
minutes away. Yeah, yeah, thatwas two years offense.
Yeah. And there's just twothings that just really stand
out where, you know, the factthat when your identity becomes
(13:43):
a risk, because of racialprejudice, but also, with such
traumatic events like this, yoursense of justice must just rage
on. Yeah. And, of course, somuch of your work, particularly
around the unheard campaign,which we'll talk about more as
(14:05):
we go on. Yeah, it's so muchabout justice. When you look
back at that event, now, wouldyou say that anger has turned
into your sense of justice?
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I thinkI think growing up, I would,
(14:25):
there was a lot of anger in me.I think it was, it was mixed
with him. Like because I'm veryemotive, I'm highly emotional,
as well, and hugely sensitive toenergy. And so you can imagine
some of the states that I wouldhave got in, you know, growing
(14:46):
up as a teenager hormoneimbalance anyway, I have like a
lot of health problems as well,you know, trying to navigate my
way through that and fulfill mydreams and goals and You know,
adapt to a world that I findpainful? Yeah, it's tough.
(15:09):
It's a lot of struggle, isn'tit? Yeah. And yet, you kind of
did this amazing, fast trackinto, you know, early fame and
success. You know, which, youknow, for for listeners who
aren't familiar, you might wantto talk a little bit about that
(15:30):
because it really was like arocket taking off. And, you
know, you kind of went fromprivate jets to drive in trains,
and unexpected to directory.Everyone's
(15:52):
everyone's so like, every time Itold tell people as a train
driver, they're like, What?
They just don't, they don't getit. But
she though you're driving yourown train of life. But it's such
a distinct story, you know, andin the intro, when I refer to
the fact that there was adramatic life change, but you
really had experienced theprivate jet world of fame hadn't
(16:15):
yet Oh, yeah.
I mean, on the grand scale, youknow, if you're, if you're
talking the Beyonce range,nowhere near but there was more
more than enough, like famethere for me to be recognized by
our fans and stuff like that.And obviously, you know, when
(16:37):
you were talking the 90s, youknow, things were very different
when you're an artist in the90s, you know, the record label
would, would fit the bills foreverything and, you know, you'd
get paid for DMS and stuff. Soin the first group, I I
basically went straight fromfrom the BRIT School and got
(16:57):
signed to Polly door in Ibasically took someone's place
who's one of my very goodfriends now. And she's a singer
on Strictly Come Dancing. And sowe I, yeah, we ended up kind of
working, touring, you know, allover England and Europe. We told
(17:21):
the Backstreet Boys a boy's ownit's our first time doing
Wembley, Peter Andre, all of theradio one road shows back in the
day. And we went to Atlanta andworked with Jermaine Dupri, who
is responsible for you know,Mariah Carey's albums, and he's
married to Janet Jackson forquite a long time as well. So,
(17:41):
you know, when we, we went tohis house to record and that was
a massive deal in the 90s. Andthen in the second group, we
toured all over, you know,Japan, Asia, Singapore,
Malaysia, Philippines. Yeah, allof those places. And Europe as
well with like, five and, andyes, we we still have like the
(18:06):
most played Christmas, single,today. 20 years later, over 20
years. Yeah,
amazing. Yeah. So yeah, it was anational favorite, isn't it?
Yeah. In Denmark, it is. Yeah.And so yeah, I'm super grateful
for, for that. I mean, and I waslucky enough in 2018, to go and
(18:31):
perform for the first time in 18years. On stage, and, you know,
my ex was pregnant with ourdaughter at the time. And it
was, it was the best year of mylife, you know, to be able to
get up there for me in front of16,000 people for the first time
in 18 years was just insane.
Yeah. Because, of course, youcould say that, you know, fast
(18:54):
train of fame and success hadkind of it crashed, you know,
things changed, you know, newdecisions were made about, you
know, the band and but that thatwas a hard adjustment, wasn't
it?
Well, yeah, I basically gotdepression that literally
smacked me in the face. Andwe're talking 2000 I came back
(19:14):
to the UK. And depression wasn'teven a thing. You know, I
didn't, no one really knew whatit was. No one spoke about it.
And I came home. And I'd gonefrom all my friends being out
there living this life, being onmorning television, to having to
pay to get on a bus. Now thinkabout it. I've gone straight
(19:38):
from the BRIT School to this Ihadn't even had a job in it. I
mean, I've had a peek around andwork for my uncle and his calf,
but, you know, not not an actualjob in the world as a teenager
or anything like that. So youknow, by the time I come home,
I'm in my early 20s. And I'mlike what's going on and it is
(20:00):
The I felt like such a failurebecause I'd had to come back.
And also the environment was,you know, so depressing. Like I
came back and like to like,literally the week I got back
that some people had beenmurdered in their house like
down the road and I was like,ah, you know, it was just dire
(20:27):
you know, my friends weren'there anymore, you know? And I
was like
so really extreme rollercoaster. Did it make you did it
make you feel vulnerable,isolated.
I did not know what was goingon. I I couldn't understand what
was happening to me. I triedeverything I decorated my house
(20:50):
the same, you know, colors andeverything that it would in
Denmark. I went to the gym. Igot put on antidepressants and
I've gone through I don't knowhow many I remember they put me
on the finger. It was Prozac andI was like yawning like
constantly within and I was likeI can't do this. I can't you
know are the ones made me worse.You know, they eventually I was
(21:14):
on something called I was oncitalopram. They made me awful.
And then I found sertraline,which which are the ones that
worked for me. And but allthrough this, I was still
pushing forward, I'd gone andsigned up for college, I wanted
to do production, I wanted tostart my own company, or then
signed up to to, to universityto study to become a sound
(21:39):
engineer, all through havingdepression. And trying to really
like hold on to my identity andnot know what was happening what
you know, people were saying tome, I'll Don't worry, you'll be
fine. Just get over it. That wasworse people out there. Back
then you didn't know not to saythat to a depressed person. I
was like, you're making meworse, like my poor mum didn't
(22:01):
have a clue what to do with me.You know, obviously her way is
like hard, you know, get over itor get under it type. You know.
And that doesn't work withsomeone who's got depression, I
always say you know, my podcast,too, if you are around anyone
that suffers from from mentalillness, like just don't, don't
(22:21):
ask them for anything. Don't askthem a question. Because it's
too hard for them to answer.Just hug them. Don't say
anything, don't
say snap out of it.
Don't say anything, just hugthem. And in a lot of the time,
you'll get resistance, but justhold on. And it will it will
mellow.
It's such a big process. Butthat's what really stands out to
(22:44):
me. Knowing that you had hitdeep depression. extremity is
such a hard thing to process.Yeah. And yet, as you said, you
were actually still findingreally constructive things to do
and you kept moving. Where doyou think that came from? Do you
(23:04):
think this goes back to thoseformative childhood years of
just having to fight just to geton just having to be courageous?
Yeah,
I don't know any other way? Idon't know any other way with
me. I can't. If I sit theredoing nothing. I question my
(23:26):
purpose of life. And it's justnot an option for me. It's not
in my makeup. Like, it's thesame as if I couldn't sit and do
the same job. Every single day.I can't because I will start
questioning what is the point oflife? You know, why am I here?
What am What am I doing? What amI doing it for? Who am I
(23:48):
helping? And the thing is, Irealized if I'm not good,
mentally, and if I'm notfulfilling me, everyone around
me gets affected.
Yeah, cuz I relate to whatyou're saying from the point of
view of being in a workingclass, single parent family,
that it's ironic perhaps thatthere can be advantage and
(24:11):
disadvantage in that it doesteach you resilience. It does
teach you if you want somethingdoing then go on and do it. And
I'd rather that than be a twitin a velvet Alice band with
cushions that doesn't reallyknow how to make things happen.
And that seems to be what I'mhearing from you.
(24:33):
Yeah. I mean, it's funnybecause, you know, I'm just
going through another journey,which I'm describing, as, you
know, like being in the birthcanal or being the butterfly in
the cocoon. Stage, the awkward,uncomfortable stage that, you
(24:53):
know, the wriggling the, youknow, when a baby's coming down
the birth canal, it's painful.It's uncomfortable. was
distressing is all of thisstuff. And that's like a point
in my life where I'm at now. Butthe difference is, I can look
back. And I'm realizing, becauseI'm like, Yeah, I did all of
(25:16):
these things. And I've always, Ijust haven't stopped. And I've
got the drive, I've got thepassion, I've got the will. But
why is nothing ever reallystuck? You know? Why? Why is
nothing ever continued? Youknow, we after leaving
university, I set up a recordingstudio was one of the girls from
(25:38):
university, and it was topromote female producers and we
work with disadvantaged kids.And this was in 2003. Yeah, and
I did a stint in camp America aswell, while we're at uni.
God, but yes, you're so lazy.
(26:00):
Oh, great experience and amazingexperience that was but you
know, nothing stayed. And I'mlike, I always I've realized I
always depended on other peopleto help me succeed. And I always
relied on that. Because I didn'tever think I was good enough to
(26:23):
do it on my own. Right, how howYin and Yang is that how like,
contradictory that I've got thisall this energy and all this
push and drive.
But that sense, is it a sense ofinadequacy or lack of confidence
that surprises you? Every nowand then
I don't I have confidence, butjust this this inner confidence.
(26:46):
And I don't know if that comesfrom, you know, being told
you're not good enough. Or, youknow, all of those years of you
know, I don't know, like as akid, my sister used to be
stunning. You know, she's one ofthose, you know, beautiful mixed
race kids. She looked like it'dbe like Chardonnay growing up,
(27:06):
you know, then you've got me,lanky, by Imagine, only boy,
right? Yeah.
Olive oil or Adam, because myname is Eve, and I was a tomboy.
So can you imagine and the thingthat will never leave me is that
(27:29):
are your sisters beautiful, likewhat happened to you? You know,
so it's comments like that,yeah. That stick to you. And,
you know, things like, onlybeing in the girl group and then
getting bullied in the girlgroup. And you know, all of
these other things. There's somany other factors that would
have, you know, racism, growingup. Just all of these other
(27:52):
things that society has thrown,you would be battling against my
will and my drive andconfidence. And that would give
me the, or, you know, the lackof confidence to believe in
myself, even though I do it's soweird to explain. I do believe
in myself. But in the core.There's something that makes me
(28:15):
rely on other people to feelthat, you know, I need them to
achieve very strange. Yeah, it's
a really complex combination,because you clearly know how to
be courageous. Yeah. And I thinkone of the disadvantages,
(28:35):
actually, sometimes when peopleare perceived as strong or
courageous, he says, it's kindof assumed that you just are
courageous, you just are brave.And actually, it's something
that you have to find. And soyou can be a complex person
who's courageous, but lacksinner confidence is your own
(28:56):
battleground, isn't it? And it'sinteresting, because I know that
when we talk about identity, andthat battleground of, you know,
racial discrimination, and anidentity or experience growing
up, you've you've often saidthat it's assumed you're a
(29:20):
gangster rapper. It is. Yeah,no, I mean, wrong people
stereotyping identity or what?But the mind is so quick to slap
these labels on. Yeah, so you'rethe gangster rap. Yeah.
You know me, obviously. Am Ianything happy
love songs. soppy love so youpick out softy?
(29:47):
The complete opposite, isn't it?Like I am like I will cry. Kate
Bush covers this is how I madelike, I couldn't be a gangster
rapper if I try. Like even if Itry really hard, I'd probably be
able to pose like one. But
it's, it's funny because I thinkgrowing up obviously on the
(30:09):
council's there is a side of methat is very, you know, not to
turn, you know, don't. Andthat's a side of me that I've
tried to kind of not get rid ofbecause it's who I am. But I
don't need to. I don't want tohave that aggression there that,
you know, I moved away from thata long time ago, and learned to
become calm. And you know, it'sstill always a work in progress.
(30:32):
But, you know, I never just liketoday the situation that I had
today, I'm standing therewatching two grown women have
this full blown argument becauseone gave the other one a dirty
look, one's got four kids. AndI've took my headphones out and
I'm like, we're in the middle ofa war in Europe, like, love
(30:55):
people love, you know, like,love. Honestly, it's there's it
what this is, what is this ispointless, like, love. You know,
it's all about your frequencythat you resonate at. And I've
been in that place for a longtime. Yeah, I still get angry.
But,
you know, yeah, yeah. But it is.I mean, you know, I know we can
(31:18):
you know, we laugh because it isso ridiculous. The whole
gangster rapper thing, but it'spointing at that problem of
stereotyping, isn't it? And howquick minds get tricked into
automatic thinking.
Yeah, I guess I typed all thetime, all the time. Like, you
know, especially when I wasworking on trains. It was it was
(31:39):
they'd be like, oh, yeah, she'sgot attitude. But then you'd
you'd have like an Italian girlguy, mental. Next silly swearing
out. And they'd laugh becauseshe's a hot headed Italian. And
they find it
funny. Yeah. But because
I won't allow someone to call mea C, u and T or swear at me.
(32:01):
Because that's a that's justeveryone's it's just the
environment of of that that workenvironment. Yeah, you know, I
had to, I came from working atApple where everything's about
customer service, to having toswear in my vocabulary to fit
in. And you do you adapt to yourenvironment, don't you? Because
(32:22):
I wouldn't allow it. And thenI'm the one with the attitude.
Yeah, amazing, isn't it? How?
I've never gone in withoutsaying hi, how is everyone
polite, which I've been taughtby my my mum and my
grandparents, you respect yourelders, you know. And another
(32:43):
thing I would never ever start afight ever, in my life never
have been in fights. Where I'mprotecting myself or other
people, but never started one.The amount of times I've been
punched in the face by men. Wow.Because a random man decides to
walk past and slap mygirlfriend's backside. And then
(33:03):
when I questioned it, I getpunched in the face.
Yeah, no, it's astonishing,isn't it? It really is
astonishing. And you know, thisthese level of sexual politics,
identity politics, you know,exists. How does all this change
Eve? When we meet you now, akamagpie? What's your experience?
(33:27):
Yeah, what's your experience nowis your artist name is magpie.
Maybe tell us a bit about youknow, the CO writing, you know,
you've done some reallyimpressive work. How does it
feel to be magpie? If you likeand in terms of identity?
Well, I mean, the reason Iliterally chose that name is
(33:51):
because I identify with it on somany different ways. I mean,
obviously be a mixed race and mypies black and white. I believe
very much in the universe,frequency, and that, you know,
everything in this universe isfrequency. And we resonate at
(34:17):
certain frequencies andobviously, black and white
aren't colors, theirfrequencies, but all colors
frequency, but you know, soyeah, I resonate with it on that
as well. And I just think, yeah,it was just I just really liked
(34:37):
the name and because I'm, Ireleased things now not because
I want to be an artist. Do younot? I mean, I don't want to be
a performing artist. Should Isay I release because I have to
express. So I just put them outthere and I don't care what
happens to them. I know thatsounds really crazy. But I had a
(35:02):
massive hang up for so longbecause being an artist was my
job, it was my profession, thatit took me so long to let go of
the fact that it had to be anumber one, or it had to be in
the charts, or it had to be, youknow, doing so well, for me to
(35:23):
be, you know, able to hold thename of an artist and I feel the
same with production andsongwriting as well, I think,
you know, because it'd be mycareer, I blocked myself through
my depression as well, when Ikept thinking I was a failure.
Because I was holding on to thisfake belief of, you know, it has
(35:46):
to be in the charts before youcan call yourself a producer,
songwriter, or an artist and itdoesn't, the minute you write,
so, the minute you write stuffdown on paper and record it, you
know, on a phone or whatever,you know, you can call yourself
so why on the same as aproducer, you have to be
producing for known artists, or,you know, it's there's so many
(36:08):
different things like and Ithink, you know, that's why I
chose that. artist name andyeah, so now I just I do things
for me. And the
CO writing credits are, I mean,they are impressive.
Yeah, yeah. So I've written withMoe pleasure, who's he calls me
(36:31):
Big Little sis now actually, forwe we went on a somewhat in
retreat and really connected andhe's obviously, you know,
written and performed with withloads of people like Michael
Jackson. And he's Brett MEDLARS.I think, producer and what's his
(36:52):
famous band he worked through?can't ever remember the name of
wind and fire. Oh, wow. Yeah.And Maria Christiansen who wrote
J. Lo's massive hit paddyMcGuinness of COVID written with
a lot of people. And yes, I lovesong. I think songwriting is the
(37:17):
most amazing thing, both for itscraft, and you know, your mental
health. Yeah. In terms of
expression.
Yeah. It's so vital and key. Youknow, and I use it in my
program. Yeah. So yeah, it's ait's so important.
(37:43):
It does stand out that your lifeis kind of an extreme roller
coaster, because, you know, wewere talking about the tough
childhood stuff, then hittingthe early fame and success, then
that changing in that period ofdepression, but actually, even
then, you were constructivelystudying University starting the
(38:03):
studio. And now Paul says, Youwere just telling us, you've
been successfully working as anartist and as a co writer, aka
Magpie, you know, with reallyimpressive credits. So it just
seems to me like the rollercoaster is, you know, on a high
again, you know, it's going up.But of course, this time, your
(38:28):
purpose is even clearer becauseyou've launched the campaign.
And I wonder, for the sake ofthe listeners, if you want to
give some context on
that, yeah, sure. I mean, youknow, I, obviously, being in the
train driver for for like sixmonths, it was actually a
shunter. Shunta is called. It'scalled a Shana. But also a depo.
(38:53):
Assistant. It's the person whobasically helped with the trains
in the Depo. So it was nightwork, and it was very, you know,
nonstop, you uncoupling trains,pulling them apart, doing safety
checks, you know, and then Ibecame a trainer in that in that
role and an assessor, and Istudied mechanical engineering.
(39:17):
And that's when I kind of like,you know, because I'm Catholic
as well. But what by studyingmechanical engineering, one of
the first things that I readwas, in the first section was
matter can't be created ordestroyed. And I was just like,
you know, because I was like,you know, yes, I'm religious,
but religion for me had a lot ofissues being gay and all that
(39:40):
other stuff. Yeah. Andrestrictions and also seeing
people that were Catholic, butnot acting well, and acting with
love and just all of the issuesthat man made religion has on
this world today. And this justkind of took it to a higher
level and I was like, Oh my god.You know, it's just bigger than
(40:01):
that. But anyway, I tried tomake that job, you know, work
for me and be as meaningful asit could. But essentially, like,
I was like, My soul was dying, Ifelt like a circle trying to fit
into a square, I need to getout. And I ended up leaving and
getting some counselling, someCBT, again, been for a lot of
(40:22):
bullying in that place. Andstress, and part of it, you
know, could be because I'msomeone who's outspoken, and I
won't allow people to act badly.And I can't sit down and let
things I just can't do it. Ican't be the person that just
lets stuff happen knowing thingsare wrong, and people are acting
(40:44):
wrong, can't do it. So anyway, Iended up like just jumping, as I
have to get back into music. Andyeah, then I started to pick
music, UK. And originally, Istarted it because I wanted to
provide production forsongwriters. Because being both
(41:04):
I realized that a lot somewhatas don't have the confidence in
a studio environment. They don'tknow the language that producers
use. I know both. So I wanted tobridge that gap for them so that
they could go in broaden theirtool pool. And also, I was
starting to do some writingretreats friend of mines got a
beautiful house in the mountainsin Italy. And that was all going
(41:26):
great. And then COVID happened.And you know, I've managed to
run one workshop, which isgreat. It's sold out. And the
retreat was fully booked. But Ihad to obviously refund everyone
because it didn't happen. Andthen I had to think great. I've
just started this company. Andnow I can't do anything in
person. Because everything wasin place to continue. Yeah. And
(41:50):
so I was sat there going, whatdo I do? Like what? What am I
supposed to do, I'd beenperforming and everything that
will got canceled. And, and so Ireally had to look at myself and
my journey. And I had been onthis like mastermind Business
Mastermind. And it made me lookat what, why I'm doing what I'm
(42:15):
doing now. And then look at mytrends over the years. And one
of the I realized thateverything that I had done in
every single job was trainingand mentoring. First of all,
always, when I was at Apple, Ibecame a mentor on a trainer,
train driver trainer. When I runmy own business, in the studio,
(42:36):
we would train young kids, youknow, and teach them how to use
logic. And you know, everythingwas the same. The other thing
was women in music. It wasanother real massive passion of
mine. disadvantaged kids, andLGBTQ plus community. And I was
like, Yeah, I'm reallypassionate about them. So I
(42:57):
really kind of looked at all ofthat around those things. It was
like, like, my business needs toaddress these issues. And then
when the campaign was bought,born, I looked at the last 20
years. So when I studied to be asound engineer, I was one of six
women and the only one of color.Pretty much 20 years later, the
(43:21):
statistics for female producersis 2%. It fluctuates between two
and three. And I was like whatthe hell has been going on?
Like, I've pretty much not evenreally been in the industry is
doing, you know, actively.
And nothing's changed. And thereare a lot of like, Facebook's
right, the word women that hadset up companies and stuff that
(43:43):
we're doing making movesalready. So I was kind of coming
from the back in that sense, I'mstill pretty much a class was
held was running up from theback still. Because the you
know, making great waves. But Iwas like, How can I do some?
It's all good me being in thesegroups and talking about it, but
what can I do? What action can Itake and that's when I started
(44:06):
the campaign. And my aim was tojust have a T shirt campaign,
that can be a visual campaignwhere everyone can get on board.
It's not just you know, all ofthese women that are already
doing stuff in these amazingcompanies and these these, you
know, Facebook groups and stuff,they can all get on board and we
can kind of show solidaritytogether and raise awareness for
(44:29):
this issue. So yes, that's
true London representation,isn't it? Right? Yes. The music
industry.
Yeah. And it's kind of led methen to then you know, just the
more I've spoken out the moreI've kind of become put myself
in spaces so I'm I'm arepresentative for the UK Music
(44:50):
diversity task force. So the 10point plan across the whole
music industry to make changesyou know in diversity I'm As a
representative for the MusicProducers Guild on that, you
know, and I'm speaking up a lotmore in those areas. And it's
(45:11):
just so important to, for me tobe present and visible for young
women, trans non binary peoplewho might identify with someone
of color that is in that space.So they know that that music
production, sound engineering,there are options for them as
(45:32):
careers, which is what also I doa lot of stuff with schools and
universities as well, becauseit's about changing things, you
know, universities, on theirperspective, what are they
showing a white man leaning overa desk, it's not going to
attract women is it will attractanyone of color, either, you
know, and so it's these smallthings and these changes that
(45:54):
need to be and that's why when Isaid in that quote, I'm not
going to shut up, it's like mytime was done. You know, I've
done what I want to do in termsof I've done the career I've
achieved, I need to my purpose,I feel is to give back to raise
awareness to shout, to makechange this, even if it's a
(46:15):
smallest part I can do. That,for me is what my life has to be
about. And obviously having mydaughter now even more so.
And it's exactly what we quotedat the beginning, where you say,
I'm willing to put myself in thefiring line to make change
happen. And it's interestingthat you talk about purpose,
because that's certainlyrecognized by neuroscientists
(46:38):
and psychologists, in the spaceof mental health, that having a
clear purpose is really healthyfor our minds. And that really
seems to be such a crystal cleardriving force for you. Whether
it's artistic purpose, orwhether it's about justice or
raising awareness. It seems thatwould you say, its purpose?
(47:05):
Where is where your courage sitsbest?
Maybe, maybe? I don't know. It'shard, because I always know I'm
an ideas pose, I have so manyideas all the time. Like, it's
exhausting. But beautiful,beautiful at the same time, but
I think that I've gotten I'vealways been someone you know,
(47:33):
it's very hard, because whenyou're around, or in an
environment where people aren'tas courageous as you. And this
is where I realized that I've,I've kind of, you know, going
back to me saying that I my selfbelief is not great, because I
questioned myself so much,because of what other people
(47:55):
say. And then I doubted myselfdown as a result. Because
they're telling me that Ishouldn't be like that. So
therefore, I'm like, goingagainst my natural thing. And my
natural thing is to speak out,always it has been since I've
been a kid, I'm not the type ofperson who's going to sit and
(48:18):
let things lie. But when you'retold by, you know, people that
around you that, that love you,or supposed to love you and care
about you that, you know, you'reembarrassing them, because
you're being too loud, or, youknow, you're you know, you've
always there's always an issue,there's always something, you
know, it makes and being asensitive person. It hurts. So
(48:43):
then I'm like, well, thenthere's something wrong with me.
But the reality is, they'rereflecting their reality on me.
And their limitations on me.Because it's not something they
would do, they wouldn't go outand speak because they don't
have the balls. They won't goout and say something, because
(49:04):
it's just our noses leave it,you know, it's not it's not
really, you know, they might notthink it's their place or that
they shouldn't do it. Buteveryone should speak up when
something is not right.
Everyone that not everyone hasthe courage to do it.
Yeah. But they're very, they'vegot enough courage to tell you
that you shouldn't be doing it.Yeah, and I'm realizing, in my
(49:27):
young 45 years that these thesehave been some of my issues.
I've listened too much to peoplethat have got limiting beliefs
and limiting behavior. And Idon't fit into that mold. Yeah,
I just don't fit into it and butI've surrounded myself with
those people, unfortunately. Andbe loyal to those people because
(49:53):
I'm also a very loyal person,but loyalty does not get you
anywhere. If it's to the wrongperson. That's another thing
I've learned. I've gotten Needto write this stuff down? All
these revelations just comingout?
Yeah, a cinch is suchinteresting territory to talk
about. And when it is actuallyrevealing things to yourself
(50:14):
even you know, it's it's, itshows you, doesn't it the
importance of reflection andself reflection, you know,
sometimes is the role ofmindfulness, but any kinds of
talking therapy, it's reallyimportant, isn't it to be able
to sort of go back and observeand rethink, and not just have
(50:34):
the same thoughts. And I thinkwhat you're doing with the
unheard music campaign is soliberating on so many levels in
terms of how you're giving voiceand raising voice raising
visibility, and that it'sactually a great act of
compassion, because it'sincreasingly important, though,
is the compassion Institute.Now, you know, where
(50:58):
neuroscientists in psychology,so recognizing that compassion
isn't the role of empathy andfeeling sympathetic, for
example. It's the role ofaction. And that's where your
emphasis is, I want to dosomething about this about this
structural inequality in themusic industry. And, you know,
(51:21):
your your courage is also a hugeact of compassion.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't seeit that way, though. I mean,
because when you're doing it,you don't look, you don't? Do
you know, you don't like putlabels on it? You just You just
do it? Because it's right.
(51:43):
Yeah, yeah. What are your hopesfor the unheard music campaign?
Well, I mean, you know, I thinkthere's massive change already
happening. Slowly, but it'shappening, you know, it really,
really is happening. And I'mjust grateful to be be in it,
(52:07):
you know, like, it's thismassive waves going, like this
year. And I'm, like, one of thelittle molecules in this wave,
go, Oh, hey, you know, I'mhelping in my little way. And
that, that, you know, I mean,like, that means so much. I'm in
this move, you know, thismovement of change is happening,
(52:28):
and I'm a part of it. And, and,yeah, you know, that's kind of
for me is like, my little legacythat I can hand down to, to my
daughter and be like, you know,what, you know, I helped in my
little way with that. And, youknow, I did what I could to
raise awareness and make change.And, you know, it's the same
(52:49):
way, you know, with my podcast,and when I talk about, you know,
it goes even further into, youknow, all the stuff we've been
talking about today, like,anyone who's been unheard in any
level. It provides them aplatform to, to tell their
story, because, you know, justlike I'm telling my story here,
that's another reason why Istarted it. Because so many
(53:10):
people started hearing me talk,and it like resonated with them
in some way. And yeah, it justmade me realize, and it's
another reason for me not toshut up.
Well, you're reducing a lot Iimagine of isolation, you know,
a lot of women who feeldisconnected or isolated, and I
(53:34):
equally wanted as positive as itis spearheading that unheard
campaign is whether leadershipis lonely at all.
I'm so lonely right now. I'mgonna lie. I think because but I
think when anybody is trying to,to do anything, and be
(53:59):
successful at it, they've got tobe lonely. I think it's just
been magnified because of mylife situation. You know, we've,
we've my breakup myrelationship, and having a
little baby toddler hasn'thelped. But, you know, when
people want you to go somewhere,you've got to really focus on
(54:24):
what is going to move youforward. And the energy that you
want to be around and you whenyou're running a business on
your own or whatever, there hasto be consistency. And, you
know, if I'm not consistent thenit's just not going to work. You
(54:47):
know, so it's lonely. It islonely and obviously when you're
running a business from home onyour own Yeah, it is, but you
have to go back in those reallyhigh times you know, where you
might be crying and being like,what am I doing it for life is
so hard life's crap. You know,I've got no one I feel so alone.
(55:10):
No one phones, me no one,there's no one that why am I
doing it? What is it for? Youknow, and again, I've learned
when you know, and thisobviously is a message to
listeners as well wheneveryou're feeling in that space,
and I can attach it to whenyou're depressed. Depression is
a very selfish space. And I sayselfish not meaning that it's an
(55:36):
intention or selfish spacebecause you can't control it.
But it's a very selfish disease,because everything that happens
in your mind is all about you.Why is no one contacted me? Why
am I this? Why me? Why me? Whyam I the one that doesn't get
the success? Why is it everyoneelse? Why me why me and you end
up in this? In it, you justcan't see a way out and it gets
(55:59):
so overwhelming. And everythingis just becomes you expectation
on everyone else. So one of theways that, you know, obviously
having gone through it, you canlook above down into it. Now
when you can see what'shappening, you can quickly catch
yourself and manage it. Soinstantly, whenever I feel like
that, I'll do something thatI'll go outside and smile at
(56:21):
everyone. Or I will be like, whyam I doing this? What's it for?
Who's it for? I think about mydaughter. And then I think about
you know, my mum and what she'sbeen through and you know, all
the people that might need tohear what I've got to say or,
you know, if I can help oneperson listening to something,
(56:42):
that's the reason I have to doit. And that's why I have to
spend longer. And that's why Ihave to be alone in this moment.
Going back to being in thecocoon, or the birth canal, that
uncomfortable, awkward, painfulplace is where I'm at right now.
And when you know that you canembrace it, and you have these
moments, you can manage themmuch better and, you know, have
(57:05):
the hope and the faith thatyou're going to fly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's reallygenuinely impressive and
exceptionally kind in terms ofhow you maintain your purpose.
(57:26):
And to end because sadly, thetime goes so fast. I thought it
would be lovely to mention yourridiculously gorgeous daughter,
but I regularly asked you tohand it over to me. But if
(57:50):
you're just blunt, give me giveme just give me her with a
shield curiosity and courage issomething that you're happily
imparting, or sharing with herencouraging her to be curious in
her own life and courageous inher own life. I just wondered
(58:12):
what your thoughts were in termsof your daughter
100%. You know, I, I always, youknow, let her I'm like another
child in the house. You know,obviously, you know, I'm quite,
you know, eat your food and doall of that. But I am a child.
So we were very playful andloving. And she needs to know,
(58:35):
first of all that I love her.And she needs to feel, you know,
content and home when she's withme. But yeah, like I always, you
know, I let her do whatever sheshe wants, you know, pretty much
because she's such a good kid. Iencourage her to, you know, just
(58:58):
do whatever, as long as she'scareful. You know, then then
that's all that matters. But Iwill Oh yeah, I'll always
encourage her to be courageousand try different things and not
hold her back based on myrestrictions or my beliefs or
anything like that. Like, she'sshe's got her own life, she
needs to fly and do do herthing. And I'll just be just
(59:22):
nudging her along, you know,being there holding her hand the
whole time. And obviously, youknow, she falls get back up. And
I'm teaching her at the momentas well. One of the things is
like she's only three, but I'msaying that, you know, if she
can't do it, I'm like, what dowe do? If we can't do it? And we
try again? And what do we do ifwe can't do it? We try again.
(59:47):
And we keep trying? And then weasked for help. You know, I
mean, but you know, I'm teachingher to not give up straightaway.
You know, it's just don't allowthat to be your default. I can't
do it. Did you try? You know, sothat's where I'm at with her
right now? Yeah, yeah, she'sjust amazing. She's amazing.
(01:00:09):
Ya know, it's beautiful. And youknow, you're a fabulous mom.
You're full of creativity as anartist artists and you're kindly
courageous as the person youare, you know, investing your
life energy into this campaignin order to insist that you
(01:00:33):
always say, to insist onequality, particularly for women
across the music industry. Eve,I have to say such a huge thank
you. Not just for your time, butfor being prepared to talk. So
honestly, in particular aboutsuch painful things and even
trauma in your life. It's areally generous act. And I want
(01:00:56):
to thank you sincerely forsharing that with us today.
Some absolute pleasure,honestly, it's just, you know,
it's so easy with you because,you know, I, I just love who you
are. And, you know, you'vehelped me in so many ways, and
you're a great human beingequally. Okay, let's not forget
that. Thank you for beinggenerous again. Honest, okay,
(01:01:21):
let's see. So thank you. It'sbeen an absolute honor. Thank
you so much.
Thank you, Eve, and I'll see yousoon.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.