October 11, 2024 • 59 mins
Sometimes it seems people are just born gifted and Zoom Rockman started his working artistic life from the age of eight, when he was self-publishing his own monthly comic, The Zoom, now considered a collector's item. Today Zoom is an award-winning political cartoonist, illustrator, puppet animator, and now the Director of his first animated one hour film, Survivor. This is the true story of Ivor Perl, who survived the Holocaust, age 12 with his brother. In stark contrast to Ivor’s life, at age 12, Zoom had become the youngest cartoonist for the world's longest running comic The Beano. At age 16, he became a regular contributor at Private Eye, the UK's number one best selling News and Current Affairs magazine. Zoom's humor and observation was already mature enough for this audience, but six years later, he quit after receiving an anti-Semitic death threat for one of his cartoons and lack of response he felt he had from the magazine. Many more accomplishments have since continued. One being in 2023, Zoom Rockman's, Jewish Hall of Fame, was billed as the ‘must see summer exhibition,’ where he created interactive life size automata of Jewish icons, including Lord sugar, Amy Winehouse and Sacha Baron Cohen. Suffice to say, the London Evening Standard newspaper has previously named Zoom as one of the most influential Londoners under 25, and he was included on Instagram's first ever 21 under 21 list within the art category. Zoom's gift of visual storytelling is ever more pronounced with his new film Survivor. This is a huge act of compassion, archival accuracy and artistic skill, telling the true story of Ivor Perl's survival. To do this, he has created an astonishing 150, hand animated paper puppets representing real people. The intricate detail of his sets accurately replicate locations, and the film is accompanied with music by the award-winning composer Erran Baron Cohen and vocals by Pini Brown, whose voice grips the emotional magnitude of this story. The film is based on Ivor Perl's book and testimony, Chicken Soup Under the Tree. We also talk about the importance of visual literacy, authenticity and telling the truth versus dis-information and failing education. Links are below to follow the film and for screening information.
Images courtesy of Zoom Rockman. Survivor images are reproduced with the permission of Lemon Soul.
Discover More:
FILM www.survivorfilm.com
IVOR PERL’S BOOK www.lemonsoul.com/products/chicken-soup-under-the-tree?srsltid=AfmBOopCsd-yBvpDEkXZaTjx_emAbzBBlZFiZnu5eC0nchFKyFTc0fQ5
MARCH OF THE LIVING www.marchoftheliving.org.uk/
HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL DAY 2025 www.hmd.org.uk/what-is-holocaust-memorial-day/this-years-theme/
VOCALS BY PINNY BROWN www.linktr.ee/piniontheroof
COMPOSER ERRAN BARON COHEN www.erranbaroncohen.com
Podcast Host - Paula Moore
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all audio interviews in this series.
Read only, text transcripts of every interview, news, reviews and your host are available here: www.canartsaveus.com
THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. PLEASE SHARE THIS FREE TO LISTEN SERIES AND HELP MAKE THE ARTS ALL OF OURS.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to thispodcast series asking the
question, Can art save us? I'mstarting the first national and
international conversation aboutcourage and curiosity. What do
these qualities really mean, andwhy does it make a big
difference to our mental,societal and democratic health?
I talk to award winning anddiverse artists across the arts
(00:24):
to explore these qualities intheir lives and work both to
inspire and for us all to learn.I'm exploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us?
(00:49):
Sometimes it seems people arejust born gifted. And my guest
today started his workingartistic life from the age of
eight, when he was selfpublishing his own monthly
comic, The Zoom now considered acollector's item. Today, Zoom
Rockman is an award winningpolitical cartoonist,
Illustrator, puppet animator,and now the Director of his
(01:11):
first animated one hour film,Survivor telling the true story
of Ivor Perl, who survived theHolocaust, age 12 with his
brother. The film is about todebut at the highly prestigious
MIPCOM festival in Cannes. At age12 and in stark contrast to
Ivor's life, Zoom had become theyoungest cartoonist for the
(01:33):
world's longest running comicthe Beano. At age 16, he became a
regular contributor at PrivateEye, the UK's number one best
selling News and Current Affairsmagazine. Zoom's humor and
observation was already matureenough for this audience, but
six years later, he quit afterreceiving an anti semitic death
(01:53):
threat for one of his cartoonsand lack of response he felt he
had from the magazine. But manymore accomplishments have
continued. One being in 2023, ZoomRockman's Jewish Hall of Fame
was billed as the 'must seesummer exhibition' where he
created interactive life sizeautomata of Jewish icons,
(02:16):
including Lord sugar, AmyWinehouse and Sacha Baron Cohen.
Suffice to say, the LondonEvening Standard newspaper has
previously named Zoom as one ofthe most influential Londoners
under 25 and he was included onInstagram's first ever 21 under
21 list within the art category,Zoom's gift of visual
(02:38):
storytelling is ever morepronounced with his new film
Survivor, a huge act ofcompassion, archival accuracy
and artistic skill, telling thetrue story of Ivor Perl's
survival. To do this, he hascreated an astonishing 150,
possibly more, hand animatedpaper puppets, the intricate
(03:02):
detail of his sets accuratelyreplicate locations. And the
film is accompanied with musicby the award winning composer
Erran Baron Cohen and vocals byPini Brown, whose voice grips
the emotional magnitude of thistrue story. The film is based on
Ivor Perl's book, Chicken SoupUnder the Tree. Having only just
(03:26):
finished intense months inproduction, I am extremely
grateful and honored to haveZoom's time today. Hello Zoom.
Hello. A huge thank you. I can'timagine how intense these last
few months have been. It's
been crazy.
And just just to say, I am inthe last few days of post
(03:49):
production, so it's not overyet.
Oh, okay, so there's a little, alittle way to go before your
debut at Cannes. Well,certainly, everything I've
looked at in the making of thisfilm undoubtedly looks like a
major achievement. I know Zoomthat you've met a number of
(04:12):
Holocaust survivors. You've alsocreated portraits for them. You
take an active role in awarenessand education, but I'm
interested in if you could tellus about meeting Ivor Perl only
last year, and how this book inparticular became the story you
wanted to tell.
(04:36):
Yeah, so I met him just afterthat exhibition Jewish Hall of
Fame. A group of Holocaustsurvivors came down to see the
exhibition, and I did a load ofportraits of them, and I went
into the Survivor Center. Andmost of these people had come
from the Kindertransport, sothey they didn't, they weren't
(04:57):
in the camps and stuff, so theywere lucky enough to survive
that. But when I met Ivor, youknow, I just thought it was
another person from theKindertransport. I did his
portrait as well after I methim, but coincidentally, I'd
been doing a lot of work forthis publishing company who
actually published Ivor's book.So I was drawing book covers for
(05:20):
them. And in a previous meeting,I'd been given Ivor's testimony,
the book, and I realized he'dbeen through all these he'd been
through Auschwitz, Allach,Dachau, Kaufering and I was just
like I thought, I could make afilm out of his story, because
(05:40):
the way he wrote his book wasreally like he was taking the
videotapes out of his head andjust explaining the experiences
that he had. And as a youngperson, growing up with the
internet, I'd always seen, likea lot of people my age and
younger, who were Holocaustdeniers, like when you see the the
(06:03):
statistics on the ages with thehighest levels of Holocaust
denial, it's my age and below.And I was like, I'd always been
told at school that I was thelast generation who was going to
meet Holocaust survivors. So Ithought it was really important
knowing someone who'd beenthrough all of this experience
to create a record of what he'dbeen through.
(06:26):
Yeah, it is. It is incrediblecontext, isn't it, in terms of
failing education. And actually,there is, there's some really
interesting research I wanted toshare with you that you you may
already be aware of it was aHolocaust knowledge and
Awareness study. It wascommissioned in 2020, it was a
(06:47):
state by state survey in theUSA, and I'll give, I'll just
give you a couple of examples.It found that 48% of American
millennials and Generation Zcould not name even one
concentration camp out of40,000and 63%
(07:12):
didn't even know that 6 millionJews were murdered in the
Holocaust. So everything you'vejust said, is so incredibly
important, isn't it. It feels tome this is a landmark. This is a
statement film, and it's evenmore important because of its
(07:34):
importance to modern memory.
And I think my approach with thefilm was, was with that in mind
of how you would create aHolocaust film that would be
accessible to my generation andbelow, and our different sort
of, our different personalityand what, what would actually
(07:55):
stick.
Yeah, and would you agree thatultimately, it is about visual
emphasis.
Visual emphasis? Yeah, so
there seems to be a correlationwith younger generations being
more prepared to learn visuallyor through visual means, as
(08:16):
opposed to, for example,studying books.
Yeah. I found that, especially,like as an artist, you know, of
course, I had to get onto socialmedia eventually, and and I've
seen what works and whatdoesn't. And like, a still image
isn't as captivating assomething that's moving. So I've
moved more and more into mystyle of live action paper
(08:40):
puppetry, where it's still aflat drawing, but moves, and I
always found that was moreengaging than a still image. And
so yeah, I think I just knewthat the medium that I was using
was already very engaging topeople. So yeah,
yeah and also, I read just interms of your own personal
preferences, I came across aquote where you said, "I found
(09:04):
reading very difficult" when youwere younger, and you'd always
started "imagining what thingslooked like" instead. That's
true. That's true. Yeah. Sounderstanding learning
preferences is really critical,isn't it. And that's, that's a
really key emphasis with howyou've chosen to approach this
(09:26):
film.
I just think another, just tomention, another approach was I
grew up with, like, you know, Igrew up with from when the
iPhone came in and like theinternet and everything, and
like the unrestricted Internet,and I think there's something in
(09:49):
the personality of Jen's deadand below where they want to
feel like they've discoveredsomething new, or like they
they're discovering informationonline. But it's very
susceptible for falseinformation or or people you
know, conspiracy theories andthings like that. So my approach
(10:10):
with the film was to avoidanything that sounded preachy or
anything that sounded like itwas telling you what to think.
That's why I was going for areally realist approach, where
it's just centered around Ivor as a 12 year old boy and what
literally happened to him alonghis experience, you know,
(10:31):
starting with his testimony, andthen reading the books of Elie
Wiesel and and corroborating hisstory and actually going to the
locations and making everythingas accurate as possible.
Yeah, this, this is what hasreally stood out to me, is
authenticity has been absolutelya fundamental priority for you.
(10:56):
And, of course, the team, thescreenwriter, everyone you've
worked with. So I think youcould safely state that
everything in this film is true.You've even cross referenced
other people's books andexperiences for accuracy. And
also everyone you see in thefilm is based on an actual photo
(11:17):
reference. Because it's not likeI didn't want to just say, Okay,
I know from the testimonythere's this character. Let me
just make up a face for him.Yeah, yeah. Every everyone is
based on a photo reference thatI've been able to find.
Yeah. And I noticed at one pointon the film website, the
(11:42):
Survivor film website, wasyou also had a list of images of
of people's faces where you wereasking for help to identify who
they were. I wondered if you didhave any response at all? When
we were
setting up the website, I askedfor that, that portion to be on
there, because I'm interested,like every time I've found out
(12:06):
the name of someone I used as areference, there's a whole story
there, and it just expands theknowledge of the whole thing
even further. So,
yeah, it's, it's endlessstories, isn't it, that you're
encountering. So, yes,authenticity, authenticity is
absolutely critical to to thisfilm, and I was interested
(12:31):
actually in your own research,visits to concentration camps,
and especially in terms ofpersonal courage, because the
impact is so huge, and Iwondered how you negotiated that
impact. Is it because everythinghas such a clear purpose for
(12:56):
you, you know, to tell the truthand and, of course, to inform
this film as accurately aspossible.
Yeah, so I did two main trips,and the first was to Auschwitz.
Yeah. I was really trying tomake sure that I was getting
photo references of thelocations that were in the film,
(13:18):
so that I could actually drawthings so that they were from
the correct angles down there onthe ground, like in the
children's barracks or or in theditch that he was digging in,
like I would know what I wouldknow spatially, what would be
(13:40):
around him when I actually putthat together? So there was two
trips, and yeah, I was veryfocused on making it as accurate
as possible. That was toAuschwitz. And then the second
one was staying in Munich andthen driving out each day to
different locations, likeDachau. This is an interesting
(14:03):
story. I met the historian atDachau, a guy called Christoph,
and I was really looking for inIvor's testimony, he
escaped through a fence. There was ashelling to a fence, and he ran
through, okay, and I went tospeak to Christoph, the
historian at Dachau, trying tofind Okay, which fence had the
(14:27):
shelling on it. And he said, nofences had any shelling at
Dachau. I was like, Okay. And hesaid, In our office, we've got a
theory that Ivor was in Allach,which is one town over, and
we're like, okay, we want ourfilm to be authentic as
(14:47):
possible. So we got an Uber andwent straight to Allach, which
was like this random town, andall that was left of the camp
was one barrack, which is usedas the locker room for the local
sports center. And yeah, we werelooking around there, and the
(15:10):
more I found out about theplace, luckily, I bought a book
which had a map of the place inthere that a prisoner had drawn,
and it aligned perfectly withIvor's testimony of what you
said, escaping through a fence,seeing a watchtower to his left,
and across the field, seeing ananti aircraft battery. So it's
this thing of like, start, Istarted with the survivor
(15:33):
testimony, but then, you know, Ifollowed it up and and it's part
of what's complicated is you'vegot these big camp names that
everyone knows about, likeAuschwitz and Dachau, apart from
that 40% of Americans that yousaid earlier. But then there's
these 1000s of sub camps. Andpeople can be in a sub camp and
(15:56):
think they're in Auschwitz,yeah, and it's just, it's
utterly confusing, becausethere's so many of them.
That's incredible. I have readthe book, and I know exactly
that that section of the storyyou're talking about, because,
of course, that was a reallyterrifying choice to make a run
(16:20):
for it. And of course, there'sthis heartbreaking scenario
where his brother repeatedlysaves his life. And this was
another example, wasn't it, ofsharing bravery to make a run
for it, and in that blind panic,how would you really possibly
know where you were? And you'veactually been able to identify
(16:41):
that. Yeah. I mean, it really,it really is a testimony, isn't
it, to how accurate andauthentic this particular film
is. It's really honoring truth.
Yeah, I created all these sortof maps that I was able to piece
together, of that prisoner's mapthat he made aerial photos from
(17:06):
that the allies took, and thencomparing it to my photos on the
ground on the day. And, yeah, itwas just, it was really
something where, when I sat downto actually draw the piece, I
had everything that I needed tocreate it.
Yeah, it's really complex,dedicated investigative work.
But then also, like, the crazything is that that camp was
(17:27):
there to supply slave labor forBMW. Oh, wow. It's just
all these companies that areinvolved. Wow. So
I understand another importantreference point for you in terms
of authentically creating yourfilm set was the Holocaust
(17:50):
artist David Olère, and thishas particular importance
because his paintings are basedon his own experience of the
crematorium the gas chambers atAuschwitz, where actually no
photographs were taken. So hispaintings may be the only
(18:13):
accurate reference point to goto. So I was interested in how
you not only worked with hispaintings as a reference point,
but how on earth do you manageinhabiting such traumatic
details at the same time?
(18:36):
It's all traumatic. But thething is, there's a reason for
it, which is trying to achieveaccuracy in the film. So I think
because of that reasoning, I wasable to, you know, get through
it all his his, it was hispaintings, but also his sketches
that I was looking at. And theywere just really, really
(18:59):
helpful, because Ivor, hisbrother, David was working in
the Sonderkommando, but in thebook, it's kind of, he's across
the wall and he's throwing breadover to Iver. But we don't
really see, we don't really seeDavid's story that much. So
looking at the drawings of Davidin the Sonderkommando, you get an
(19:22):
idea of what their daily routineis and how it all works. So,
yeah, I was, I was reallylooking at the compositions of
David Olère and other Holocaustartists and using them as the
jumping off point. Also, youknow, if there was, like, a
truck or something shot.There's, there's a sketch
(19:44):
somewhere which has the thelicense plate, or, you know, you
can get it really accurate. Sothere were two main artists. I
bought two books in Auschwitz.One was David Olère and the other
was this thing called thesketchbook from Auschwitz. And
it's, we don't know who did allthese sketches, but it was found
(20:05):
under a barrack. So these twoexamples, like show the two
different sides of working inthe Sonderkommando and then just
being a regular prisoner aswell. So yeah, there's all sorts
of references and things andlittle details in the film which
(20:28):
would relate to these sketches,if you were to compare them.
Yeah, yeah. And these aremiracle finds, aren't they,
that, for example, thosesketches had even survived.
Just
just just from the other sidein a antique shop in Munich, I
found these two books, andthey're a bit like when a kid
(20:50):
collects, uh, stickers of like,footballers or, you know,
collectible, you know,collectors cards, yeah. But it
was made in like early in thewar for the Germans, and it was
all the different uniforms anddifferent tanks and things and
stuff, and someone had gone tothe effort of collecting every
(21:14):
single sticker. And anyway, Ibought these two books, and that
gave me references for all themilitary uniforms and and and
the anti aircraft artillery thatwas in the film later on. So
it's just weird. Who keeps therecords? You know, there's the
victims and the perpetratorsboth records.
(21:37):
Yeah, yeah. But in terms oftruth telling and historical
records, these have all beenvital finds. I also understand
there was a connection that youmay have even found through your
film research, a connectionbetween the artist David Olère
(22:01):
and Ivor's older brother. They
would have been around aroundthe same time because, of
course, well, David survived,David Olère, but Ivor's brother,
David didn't. It's the casewhere I explain we know David
was there. David, David, Ivor'sbrother, but I didn't want to
(22:26):
make up a character to be thesecond person in there, yeah,
but I'd been referencing DavidOlère's drawings a lot, and I
felt it was only right that hewould feature in the film
itself. Yeah, yeah. It's thatthing of, okay, you could either
(22:48):
not have David Olère and make upa person, or you could put him
in, because he's literally in ascene which is referencing one
of his own sketches,
right. Yeah, yeah. And anotherconnection, um, is with your own
great uncle, who I understandwas imprisoned at Auschwitz, but
(23:13):
liberated the same day as Ivorfrom Dachau. Yeah, yeah. So how
did you uncover these particulardetails? Well,
this has been in kind of myfamily history, like told down
through my family. I mean,growing up, I thought he was the
(23:35):
only person in my family who'dbeen through the Holocaust, and
he wasn't my you know, he wasn'talive during my lifetime, but it
was something that my mom and mygrandparents told me about. But
yeah, it turns out he isn't theperson my family who was killed
(23:57):
in the Holocaust. Turns out Ihad a whole section of my
family, who were Latvian, whowere, they were shot in the
woods. I think it was called theRumbula massacre. So it goes to
show, like a lot of people, theymay know about one or two people
in their family who got killed,but actually, there's, there's
(24:19):
usually more that the olderfamily just didn't want to talk
about.
Yeah, yeah, too traumatizing andtoo tragic. So with this in
mind, I mean this scale ofatrocity, which sadly never
seems to leave the world, do youfeel there is a growing
(24:39):
importance for productions thatare specifically grounded in
historical accuracy and in termsof teaching against the dangers
that we've seen of propagandaand autocracy.
I, I just think it's importantto tell the truth. Yeah, yeah.
(25:04):
And I don't like this thing oflike, you shouldn't be able to
just use the Holocaust as asetting to tell your own made up
story inside it, yeah, becauseit's muddying the water a bit,
and we want to create a recordfor people who come after us
like there'll come a point wherethere won't be any Holocaust
(25:30):
survivors to tell their story,and it's up to us to keep the
record and not distort it in anyway.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's notjust an arena to create hero
stories. It really is abouttruth telling and representing
those voices. And of course,Ivor's voice is incredibly
(25:55):
important, and from variousconferences and talks I've seen
with Ivor online, he alwaysmaintains love will get you
further than hate, despiteeverything he's been through,
and he always raises theimportant question, What has the
world learned from us? So I wasalso interested in how, when the
(26:22):
screenplay was being created,and, of course, all of this
really important research, howyou felt you could match all of
those details visually. Did youever feel it wouldn't be
possible? Because obviouslyit's, it's painstaking and
(26:43):
investigative work that's beeninvolved. Yeah,
so, I mean, we started with
these scripts of the wholething, one of the big
challenges, we didn't want tomake up any dialog so, but
luckily, there was a lot ofdialog in the testimony. So,
yeah, we went with the dialogthat was there.
(27:06):
I started.
I made a storyboard, which wasquite easy for me, because
experience with cartooning inthe past, yeah, and that was
good, because you could drawthings like a general idea of
what the scene would be withouttoo much of the detail. And then
in the later stages, you do moreresearch and you refine it until
(27:27):
it's accurate as possible. Therewas a there was part where I was
in Kaufering, which is oneof these sub camps
actually, and from thetestimony, I just knew that he
was going somewhere to in a sortof underground area, and I
(27:48):
wasn't really sure what itmeant. So in the earlier
sketches, it was like he wasmining with these people. He was
being forced to mine because Iknew there was some camps where
they had to do that. And thenlater on, I found out, no, he
was actually being taken to thissort of mega bunker where the
(28:09):
Nazis were building and anaircraft factory inside of the
fake hill that they werebuilding, wow, so that the
Allies wouldn't see it from fromabove. Yeah, and it was, it
wasn't the only one. It waslike, one of four or five.
And it's just like, that's thething.
(28:31):
I think you with this story andthe subjects. It's not that you
tend to exaggerate things, it'syou tend to under exaggerate or
under underestimate things,yeah, yeah, the scale is
actually infinitely bigger thanyou can imagine. Yeah, yeah. And
(28:51):
I think Ivor actually said this,like we we play down what
happened to us when we talkabout it, yeah.
What's the understanding ofthat? How, how does it feel that
that is possible, that that thisscale of atrocity can be played
down?
(29:12):
Well, it's just, it's, I don'tknow, I can't speak for anyone
else. It's, I think it's tootraumatizing. And you find that,
like, the things that, like, forexample, with either the things
that make him really sad are orthe things that the subject is
(29:32):
so traumatizing that the pain isusually put into something that
isn't that, if that makes sense.Yeah. So Ivor, like, one of
the main things is that his mumleft the chicken soup under the
tree before they went on thecattle truck, or that Ivor
really wanted this torch becausehe had to walk to and back from
(29:54):
home to his Cheder, which is aschool for Jewish children. So
in the dark, and he wanted thistorch, but when he bought it, he
was so excited to have it, hewas running with it, and it
smashed. And that and thechicken soup are sort of seems
like what all that pain is
(30:15):
centered into, because it's toopainful to think about the
actual trauma.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And thatreally makes sense, of course,
because it's things that areleft behind and things that are
destroyed, things that arebroken, yeah. And they are very
visually clear and clear partsof the story in his book, of
course. And of course, the titleof the book, it made me curious
(30:39):
as well, actually, about, insome ways, the film title,
obviously Survivor. We know,against all the odds, Ivor and
his brother did survive. But atthe same time, what does
surviving really look like?Because, as we were just saying,
you know, there is so much hugetrauma, and of course, it took,
(31:00):
I think, decades didn't itbefore Ivor's family persuaded
him to actually write his ownstory, and that feeds into
exactly what you were saying. Itwas too traumatizing to revisit
and to go back to. So maybesurviving is about being of
(31:21):
service to remembrance andeducation.
Yeah, it's about, well, I thinkit was one of the early
conversations I had with him waslike, it's not just, I think it
was a conversation I was havingwith for him about covid
actually, because it was, it wasabout, are you surviving for the
sake of just staying alive or ordo you want, do you want to live,
(31:46):
there's a difference betweensurviving and living I think,
yeah, surviving is like you'renot dead, but living is like
you're actually doing things.You got goals and aspirations
and doing things that areimportant.
So I was also interested intalking to you about the
(32:06):
incredible detail and workthat's gone into soundscaping
and the music and the vocalsthat have been included. I mean,
I imagine this has been anabsolutely massive part of the
production in itself.Definitely,
definitely, just on the on themusic side, I wanted to have the
(32:29):
music kind of in three, threeparts, you know, like at the
beginning, to have like theactual sort of things that would
sound like the music from thetime. But then at the moment
that they're taken into thecastle, trucks have that
abruptly end, and then over thecourse of the actual main chunk
(32:53):
of the film, which is within theHolocaust, to go with, like a
something where I was lookinginto early industrial music,
early electronic music, becauseI wanted it to sound foreign to
the style of music at thebeginning, like, for these
(33:13):
people, their introduction to,like the modern sort of
electrified world was theHolocaust, like this was the
modern world hitting them. Andso that's that's why I wanted,
like the sort of industrialsounding music. I think there's
a track in there which is likefrom 1922 and it that's called
(33:38):
Symphony of Industrial Horns.And I think it was Soviet, but
it's still got that sort of,like, industrial, militaristic
thing to it. And I don't know, Ijust feel like, um, I've seen a
lot of Holocaust films, andthere's all usually, like, the
music in it is quite nice. Like,like, or sounds quite somber and
(34:05):
pleasant in a way, but I feellike that's giving you somewhere
to escape into whilst you'reseeing the horrific things.
Yeah, whereas I wanted somethingthat would just be horrific in
itself as well, along with it,and actually not take you out of
(34:27):
what you're saying. But thenonce the Holocaust is over,
we've got nice music again, andit's, it's a relief, in a way, I
think, like when I've donescreenings and things, it's, you
know, that section of the filmis just something you have,
you're getting through. It's abit of an ordeal. But then, then
you get to the end, and it's,it's because you've, you've,
(34:49):
you're following Ivor through thestory, and when, when it's good
for Ivor, you feel goodyourself. Yeah,
absolutely, yeah, absolutely.But as you were saying at the
same time, it's not been to kind of help the viewers
experience with gentle music,because something is so
traumatic and harrowing. It isbrutal honesty, whether you're
(35:11):
looking at it or hearing it,yeah.
But then, just to say, likeErran Baron Cohen came in and he
did this incredible theme, well,I guess it's called Ivor's theme.
So he wrote music that would beassociated with either different
moods and things that it carriesout throughout the film. And I
(35:31):
think it really because beforeit was just, I had different
tracks that I liked, but itthere was no one track that you
could say this is the track thatyou associate with the film,
right? And so he came in and hebrought that to the table, which
was really good, yeah, and, andit has different stuff, like it
(35:52):
follows, like I said, thosedifferent stages of the film,
the Survivor suites that hewrote, goes through those
different stages itself as well.
And I also saw it was anInstagram clip, and it was
featuring Pini Brown's vocal, Ithink it's a scene from a
(36:15):
displaced persons camp in 1945and just from that short clip,
clip, I mean, I mean, I find histhe magnitude of of his vocals
are, are enormous. The theemotional depths in there is
astonishing. And this is justfrom a few seconds, you know, of
(36:36):
a making of clip. Buttechnically, I was also
fascinated, of course, by howyou manage that kind of
minuscule detail, you know, ofof the mouth moving, you know,
to complement the vocals of, youknow, the puppets movements
complementing the vocals soincredibly realistically.
(37:01):
It's just I've had a lot ofpractice making these puppets,
and it all started during thelockdown, when I had the time to
develop that skill. So yeah, Iwas able to make this head that
with the mouth could move andthe eyebrows could move, and the
book could be moving as well,all whilst the cameras moving as
(37:22):
well. Yeah, no, it's I wasreally looking forward to
filming that scene because Iknew it was near the end, and I
knew it was a nice scene tofilm. Just an interesting fact
is the cantor so the singerwho's in that scene is actually
(37:43):
Pini's teacher's, teacher.
Oh, wow. So another connectionthat's just incredible, isn't it
Crazy
connections, crossing thestory. So the singing style and
everything should have beencarried down to Pini. So
it's just amazing, isn't it?It's absolutely amazing. And
(38:03):
obviously, you know, listenersmay may be interested to to
understand that. You know, PiniBrown obviously does have his
own singing career. And in fact,I will be, I will be putting
plenty of relevant linkssignposted on your episode page.
And just as I said earlier,about like, wanting to find out
(38:23):
names about different people,like he was one where I had this
reference, found out his nameMoshe Kraus, and he's got his
own incredible story of he heonly survived because the
commandant liked hearing himsing.
Yeah, yeah, it's astonishing,isn't it. And the same as having
(38:46):
orchestras created to satisfythe whim of a murderer. Yeah.
Well,
the orchestra thing is quitecrazy to me, because I always
like, I'd hear, like, Holocaustdeniers say it can't have been that
bad because they had anorchestra. An orchestra, right?
But really, they're there tokeep the timing of the marching
(39:09):
to work, you can see in thebeat. And also, the Nazis tell
them what to what to play. Andthey they're constantly getting
them to play things that arejust really ironic in a dark
way, like in the film, it's ShowMe the Way to go Home. Wow.
Wow. So perverse, isn't it.Yeah, so putting all this
(39:33):
together, I mean, you've,obviously, you've, you've
achieved so much in a short time.Overall, I can really see a
consistent emphasis aroundeducation. You've got a really
strong sense of responsibilityaround around teaching, not
only, you know, representing, ofcourse, historical truth, but
(39:55):
also encouraging the importance of visual literacy as part
of our education. And I saw thatyou became a young ambassador
for the Big Draw and forlisteners the Big Draw is the
world's biggest celebration ofdrawing and arts. It's an
education charity, and I wasreally interested in learning
(40:19):
more about that, how you'reinvolved, and the kind of
educative role that you're ableto take there,
yeah. So I, I've been involvedwith them quite a long time. It
was more so when I was a kid,like, because I'm not really a
kid cartoonist anymore, yeah. Sothat, that, that thing of me
(40:39):
being a kid who can speak toother kids. You know, I'm an
adult now, so I'm not asinvolved as I used to be, but I
still think it's reallyimportant the work they do. And,
you know, I did a lot of eventsaround the country and going
into schools and things, talkingto children and just just
showing that, like showingphotos of me their age, selling my
(41:04):
comics and doing things and itbeing encouraging to them. Also,
you know, when I've gone in andI've done comic workshops in the
past, it's usually thenaughtiest kid in the class who
ends up being the most engaged.
That's interesting. What do youthink that correlation is? Just
(41:26):
bored? Yeah. School is
not really speaking tothem so, but also it's if you're
frustrated as well. It's anoutlet, because, you know, you
can, you can draw the thingthat's annoying you.
Yeah. And I think it goes backto what we said earlier about
(41:46):
the importance of recognizingeveryone has learning
preferences. There's differentthere's different ways of
learning. And for example,visual learning can be more
effective than asking someone tostudy a book as one example.
Yeah. So I was really interestedin the importance of encouraging
visual literacy and that rolethrough the Big Draw. And it
(42:09):
also raised the fact thatresponsibility also comes,
doesn't it, with comedy andcartoons. So that work you've
done, done in the past,particularly around caricature.
And of course, that was a crueltool of propaganda for the
Nazis. So you must be very hyperaware of responsibility when
(42:35):
you're combining comedy andcartoons. Yeah,
that was, that was a increasingthing that was on my mind, up to
the point that I left PrivateEye, and was mainly about, like,
when you're doing satire, itfeels like, usually you're
pushing yourself towardsexaggeration, yeah. But then
(43:00):
certain things like, it's justirresponsible to exaggerate, or
if you exaggerate with a bias,then it's basically propaganda
as well. So I've always likewanted to make cartoons, which I
would study, study the subject abit and then do something make,
(43:24):
like, exaggerate, but based on,like, a core idea of or
understanding of the subject,you know. And then what's
interesting is people would lookat the cartoon and then project
their own opinions onto it. Yeah,yeah. And then that it becomes
the kind of like, you know, inDoctor Who, where he holds up,
(43:47):
like, his, his blank piece ofpaper, and, and, and the other
person reads it and says, Oh,you're this. Then, yeah, I like
that, you know, like, because itjust reveals where someone else
is coming from, when they, whenthey, when they interpret it.
So, yeah,
(44:09):
another thing on this subjectis, I collect hyperinflation
banknotes. Oh, okay. Oh, that'sinteresting. And I've got, I've
got a few from Weimar Republic,and actually, part of the
propaganda that the Nazis didbefore they came into power was
they printed caricatures ofJewish people onto the banknotes
(44:31):
so that people would associatethe hyperinflation and the
crisis
and blame the Jews. Yeah, yeah,yeah, absolutely. And this is
what's so sinister, isn't it, interms of weaponising
discrimination, it starts somuch sooner. So in this context
(44:52):
of the Holocaust, it's notsomething that suddenly happens.
It's been seeded for a long timeand through mechanisms like
that. And of course, this iswhere education can walk a fine
line. And I think Ivor makes areally important point about
this, that yes, education, ofcourse, is vital, and as we were
(45:14):
saying at the beginning,particularly to restore vital
information to modern memory andunderstanding the horrors of the
Holocaust as one example, hasthe purpose of trying to not let
history repeat itself, althoughthe world repeatedly fails to do
(45:36):
that. But he makes the pointthat Germany, of course, was one
of the most, if not the mosteducated country in the world at
that time. Yeah,
and that that's the, I thoughtyou were gonna lead to that
point, because I've heard himsay it a few times, and yeah,
education isn't enough.There's some other factor. And
(46:03):
that's the thing. There's a lotof open ended questions when it
comes to this subject, becauseobviously, education isn't enough.
There has to be something else.But I feel like as the director
and this is my first interviewabout the film. Thank you so
much. I don't think I should betelling people what message they
(46:25):
need to take. Or I don't need totell people what that other
thing is, other than education,it's, I think it's up for people
to try and work out what thatanswer is. Because I just feel
like I'm it's sort of cheapeningthings. If I just give this is
the answer, because I don't knowmyself. This is, like a really
big question, yeah,
(46:47):
yeah. And also, you know, it's,it's a thought process, isn't
it? And people will arrive atthings in different ways, but at
the same time, because you canbe so completely assured that
you have created a story basedon truth, the fact checking, the
(47:09):
authenticity that you you canleave the film there can't you
in many ways, because youhaven't got to have any doubts
about misinformation or tryingto even emotionally exploit how
people respond.
Yeah, I don't think there's anyneed. I mean, the film exists
(47:31):
now, so just encourage people togo and see it.
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean,yeah, absolutely. I cannot say
how this can't become one of themost important statement films
within these educationalcontexts and archives
documenting this history becauseof the painstaking accuracy.
(47:55):
I'm just interested, likethese anti-Semites or Holocaust
deners that I've seen online,what they would make of this
film if they were to watch it?Because it just seems like a
cognitive dissonance orsomething like, but like, how
can you that's the thing is,like Ivor is at the center of
(48:19):
it. He's a 12 year old boy, canyou really justify what's
happening?
Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.Can
you? Can you? Well, I don't knowfrom what angle you can say this
didn't happen to him as well. So
no, absolutely. I mean, and thenthere is no possible
justification. And again, itreminds me of David Olère's
(48:43):
paintings, which I reallystruggle to look at. Doesn't
matter how many books I've read,brilliant films, I've seen,
poetry, I've read, it's, it's ofsuch a horrific scale, which, as
I've said before, hasn't reallyleft the world. We see conflict
(49:03):
repeatedly, but even in thosepaintings, you know, we're
talking about Ivor as a 12 yearold. But of course, those
paintings with piles of babies,you know that the possibility of
creating such cruelty, andconsent to that cruelty on a
(49:25):
mass scale is incomprehensible.
Yeah, it's been interesting tolike some of the Nazi Nazis who
feature in the in the film, likewho they were, what was their
mindset and things, you know,some people like, I think
(49:45):
there's one which had frontallobe syndrome, just like he
literally had, I don't know,part of his brain, missing the
bit that gives you a conscience.Well, yeah, there were people
who, like, people who were.Ideological, where they just
thought, this is kind of bad,but we've got to do it because
(50:08):
it's for the survival whatever.
And then there was,
you know, people who are justcowardly as well. Actually, I
didn't use this film forreference, because I actually
watched it quite late in theproject. But Come and See
there's a bit where, like,they've caught this Nazi, and
(50:31):
they were like, Why did you tryto kill our children? And he
says, like, if we don't kill thechildren, they'll come for us
when they grow up, right? Andthen there's the scene at the
end where this kid, who's he'sjoined, like the Russian army,
and he's been through, like thethick of it all through, and he
(50:52):
sees this painting of Hitler onthe floor, and he's holding this
gun, which hasn't used for thewhole film, and he's shooting
the photo of Hitler. And there'sthis kind of like artsy thing
where every time he shoots, wesee like historical footage
going back in time. Wow, yeah.And every time he shoots, it
(51:12):
goes further and further back tothe point where Hitler's a
child, is just a photo of him asa baby, and he can't, he can't
shoot the photo anymore, becausehe'd be doing what the the Nazi
had said earlier, where he said,You've got to kill the children
before they and it was justlike, it's another one of those
(51:33):
open ended questions, where,like, yeah, yeah. What would you
do?
Yeah. It's really significant,cyclical revenge. And again, I
think Ivor's life experience,including bearing witness for
(51:56):
courts for Nazi criminals beingbrought to justice. He made such
an important point that thisparticular criminal, who may
have even been 90, butparticularly old and frail, came
in assisted by nurses eitherside of him and Ivor himself
(52:19):
said he could never find thesame hatred. He could never fall
into that trap, if you like, ofof revenge, even actually, he
talks about this in the book.When liberation came, there were
some opportunities, obviously,for victims and prisoners to
(52:42):
retaliate, and some soldiersassisted that Allied soldiers
would assist that they couldhurl stones, for example. And
Ivor consistently says in hisbook and story, he could never
find that within him, isn't isn'tthat the most critical part of
the education we need, becausewhere does cyclical revenge get
(53:06):
us?
It's even just that thing of,don't hate love. I mean, that
sounds like something thatsomeone, you know it, if it's
not coming from Ivor, itdoesn't sound genuine, but he's
been through all of it, sadly.You know that, okay, like, if
someone, someone from my olduni, or something, posted, like,
(53:29):
don't hate, love, it wouldn'tmean much to me. But if Ivor
said it, you know it, it hasweight to it, so it takes on a
whole new meaning.
Yes, you know, yeah, it'sincredibly powerful. Because
it sounds simple, but comingfrom him, it means a lot. Yeah,
(53:50):
there's a big differencebetween a kind of 60s hippie
love vibe and someone, yeah, whohas survived. Yeah, no, exactly
that, exactly that the power andweight, the wisdom that can only
come from those people, fromthose survivors, has to be
attended to, and there isabsolutely no room for denial.
(54:14):
But I think we are in a crisis.We are in an age of
disinformation. We are in an agewhere denial is made for the
sake of denial, and it reallydoes come back, doesn't it, to
the importance of education. Andeven though there are 1000s of
things I could go on to, onething I'd like to highlight is,
of course, and in response towhat we were just saying, the
(54:37):
Holocaust Memorial Day 2025 isfor a better future, and it's
asserting our collectiveresponsibility to shape a better
future. And it's also the yearof the 80th anniversary of the
liberation, not only of 1000s ofconcentration camps, but as
(54:58):
you've mentioned, sub camps.Camps and slave labor camps
right across Europe. So I'mreally interested Zoom as to how
the film Survivor can continueto have a role, particularly in
association with these eventsnext year, particularly as a
statement film, a statement filmto help teach that prejudice
(55:23):
must never be normalized.Discrimination can't be
weaponized.
Well, I think it's all containedin the film. You know, like
we've been discussing about it,it does hit all these different
points. And you know, the thingabout Ivor's story is he's been
through so many of these keylocations which are important to
(55:43):
know about for education on theHolocaust, like Auschwitz,
Dachau, you know, these are thebig ones we already know about.
But then also touches on thesubcamp system. And then you
also see the other two sides ofthe Holocaust, which are that
life leading up to it, and thethe anti semitism that already
(56:05):
existed and the hatred that wasalready sort of brewing there,
and also liberation, how youdust yourself off and make a
life for yourself after that.And yeah, but I don't want to
get into like saying, Oh, thisis what this film's all about,
(56:27):
yeah, because of what I saidearlier, is such a heavy,
important subject that it'sreally for the viewer to to take
away what they're going to takeaway from the film. But I
recommend people see the film.Oh
yeah, absolutely, yeah,wholeheartedly. And so Zoom that
(56:49):
hour has actually zoomed by. ButI do always ask all of the
guests what their response is tothe series question, Can art
save us? And obviously we'vebeen talking about visual
literacy, visual literacy, ifyou like, as a route to history
(57:12):
learning truth. So how do yourespond to that idea? Can art
save us?
Well, I think it can, becausejust taking that education
angle, you know, I was a seven,seven year old kid who didn't
know he had a hearing problemand was doing terrible in
school, really bad literacy andstarting comics and doing art
(57:38):
was my way of becoming engagedand processing the world and and
everything and and I, there area lot of people who just told
me, you know, Zoom, you'rewasting your time. You know
you're wasting your time. Come, come play with us, why
are you drawing this comic. ButI've stuck with it, and it's led
me to this point. So it justgoes to show, if you like, start
(58:01):
from an early age and do thingsrather than just sit and talk
about it. You can get quite farwith it. Yeah,
absolutely. Well, well,
zoom, I can't thank you enough,not only for making the time
when I well the months ofintense production you've been
(58:22):
in, and the grueling andpainstaking investigative
research that you've been doingis just so impressive. And to
give me the honor of being yourfirst interview for this film, I
cannot thank you enough. And forthe listeners, I will be
signposting multiple links,including, of course, the
(58:42):
website for the film, so you canfollow Zoom find out more.
Please make sure that you go andsee this film once information
is released. And thank you verymuch for listening in and as
always, please do considersharing this free to listen
series to help make the arts allof ours and Zoom, thank you so
(59:05):
much. And I wish you all theluck in the world with this
fantastic and important film.Thank you. Thank you. You.
Welcome to thispodcast series asking the
question, Can art save us? I'mstarting the first national and
international conversation aboutcourage and curiosity. What do
these qualities really mean, andwhy does it make a big
difference to our mental,societal and democratic health?
I talk to award winning anddiverse artists across the arts
(00:24):
to explore these qualities intheir lives and work both to
inspire and for us all to learn.I'm exploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us?
(00:49):
Sometimes it seems people arejust born gifted. And my guest
today started his workingartistic life from the age of
eight, when he was selfpublishing his own monthly
comic, The Zoom now considered acollector's item. Today, Zoom
Rockman is an award winningpolitical cartoonist,
Illustrator, puppet animator,and now the Director of his
(01:11):
first animated one hour film,Survivor telling the true story
of Ivor Perl, who survived theHolocaust, age 12 with his
brother. The film is about todebut at the highly prestigious
MIPCOM festival in Cannes. At age12 and in stark contrast to
Ivor's life, Zoom had become theyoungest cartoonist for the
(01:33):
world's longest running comicthe Beano. At age 16, he became a
regular contributor at PrivateEye, the UK's number one best
selling News and Current Affairsmagazine. Zoom's humor and
observation was already matureenough for this audience, but
six years later, he quit afterreceiving an anti semitic death
(01:53):
threat for one of his cartoonsand lack of response he felt he
had from the magazine. But manymore accomplishments have
continued. One being in 2023, ZoomRockman's Jewish Hall of Fame
was billed as the 'must seesummer exhibition' where he
created interactive life sizeautomata of Jewish icons,
(02:16):
including Lord sugar, AmyWinehouse and Sacha Baron Cohen.
Suffice to say, the LondonEvening Standard newspaper has
previously named Zoom as one ofthe most influential Londoners
under 25 and he was included onInstagram's first ever 21 under
21 list within the art category,Zoom's gift of visual
(02:38):
storytelling is ever morepronounced with his new film
Survivor, a huge act ofcompassion, archival accuracy
and artistic skill, telling thetrue story of Ivor Perl's
survival. To do this, he hascreated an astonishing 150,
possibly more, hand animatedpaper puppets, the intricate
(03:02):
detail of his sets accuratelyreplicate locations. And the
film is accompanied with musicby the award winning composer
Erran Baron Cohen and vocals byPini Brown, whose voice grips
the emotional magnitude of thistrue story. The film is based on
Ivor Perl's book, Chicken SoupUnder the Tree. Having only just
(03:26):
finished intense months inproduction, I am extremely
grateful and honored to haveZoom's time today. Hello Zoom.
Hello. A huge thank you. I can'timagine how intense these last
few months have been. It's
been crazy.
And just just to say, I am inthe last few days of post
(03:49):
production, so it's not overyet.
Oh, okay, so there's a little, alittle way to go before your
debut at Cannes. Well,certainly, everything I've
looked at in the making of thisfilm undoubtedly looks like a
major achievement. I know Zoomthat you've met a number of
(04:12):
Holocaust survivors. You've alsocreated portraits for them. You
take an active role in awarenessand education, but I'm
interested in if you could tellus about meeting Ivor Perl only
last year, and how this book inparticular became the story you
wanted to tell.
(04:36):
Yeah, so I met him just afterthat exhibition Jewish Hall of
Fame. A group of Holocaustsurvivors came down to see the
exhibition, and I did a load ofportraits of them, and I went
into the Survivor Center. Andmost of these people had come
from the Kindertransport, sothey they didn't, they weren't
(04:57):
in the camps and stuff, so theywere lucky enough to survive
that. But when I met Ivor, youknow, I just thought it was
another person from theKindertransport. I did his
portrait as well after I methim, but coincidentally, I'd
been doing a lot of work forthis publishing company who
actually published Ivor's book.So I was drawing book covers for
(05:20):
them. And in a previous meeting,I'd been given Ivor's testimony,
the book, and I realized he'dbeen through all these he'd been
through Auschwitz, Allach,Dachau, Kaufering and I was just
like I thought, I could make afilm out of his story, because
(05:40):
the way he wrote his book wasreally like he was taking the
videotapes out of his head andjust explaining the experiences
that he had. And as a youngperson, growing up with the
internet, I'd always seen, likea lot of people my age and
younger, who were Holocaustdeniers, like when you see the the
(06:03):
statistics on the ages with thehighest levels of Holocaust
denial, it's my age and below.And I was like, I'd always been
told at school that I was thelast generation who was going to
meet Holocaust survivors. So Ithought it was really important
knowing someone who'd beenthrough all of this experience
to create a record of what he'dbeen through.
(06:26):
Yeah, it is. It is incrediblecontext, isn't it, in terms of
failing education. And actually,there is, there's some really
interesting research I wanted toshare with you that you you may
already be aware of it was aHolocaust knowledge and
Awareness study. It wascommissioned in 2020, it was a
(06:47):
state by state survey in theUSA, and I'll give, I'll just
give you a couple of examples.It found that 48% of American
millennials and Generation Zcould not name even one
concentration camp out of40,000and 63%
(07:12):
didn't even know that 6 millionJews were murdered in the
Holocaust. So everything you'vejust said, is so incredibly
important, isn't it. It feels tome this is a landmark. This is a
statement film, and it's evenmore important because of its
(07:34):
importance to modern memory.
And I think my approach with thefilm was, was with that in mind
of how you would create aHolocaust film that would be
accessible to my generation andbelow, and our different sort
of, our different personalityand what, what would actually
(07:55):
stick.
Yeah, and would you agree thatultimately, it is about visual
emphasis.
Visual emphasis? Yeah, so
there seems to be a correlationwith younger generations being
more prepared to learn visuallyor through visual means, as
(08:16):
opposed to, for example,studying books.
Yeah. I found that, especially,like as an artist, you know, of
course, I had to get onto socialmedia eventually, and and I've
seen what works and whatdoesn't. And like, a still image
isn't as captivating assomething that's moving. So I've
moved more and more into mystyle of live action paper
(08:40):
puppetry, where it's still aflat drawing, but moves, and I
always found that was moreengaging than a still image. And
so yeah, I think I just knewthat the medium that I was using
was already very engaging topeople. So yeah,
yeah and also, I read just interms of your own personal
preferences, I came across aquote where you said, "I found
(09:04):
reading very difficult" when youwere younger, and you'd always
started "imagining what thingslooked like" instead. That's
true. That's true. Yeah. Sounderstanding learning
preferences is really critical,isn't it. And that's, that's a
really key emphasis with howyou've chosen to approach this
(09:26):
film.
I just think another, just tomention, another approach was I
grew up with, like, you know, Igrew up with from when the
iPhone came in and like theinternet and everything, and
like the unrestricted Internet,and I think there's something in
(09:49):
the personality of Jen's deadand below where they want to
feel like they've discoveredsomething new, or like they
they're discovering informationonline. But it's very
susceptible for falseinformation or or people you
know, conspiracy theories andthings like that. So my approach
(10:10):
with the film was to avoidanything that sounded preachy or
anything that sounded like itwas telling you what to think.
That's why I was going for areally realist approach, where
it's just centered around Ivor as a 12 year old boy and what
literally happened to him alonghis experience, you know,
(10:31):
starting with his testimony, andthen reading the books of Elie
Wiesel and and corroborating hisstory and actually going to the
locations and making everythingas accurate as possible.
Yeah, this, this is what hasreally stood out to me, is
authenticity has been absolutelya fundamental priority for you.
(10:56):
And, of course, the team, thescreenwriter, everyone you've
worked with. So I think youcould safely state that
everything in this film is true.You've even cross referenced
other people's books andexperiences for accuracy. And
also everyone you see in thefilm is based on an actual photo
(11:17):
reference. Because it's not likeI didn't want to just say, Okay,
I know from the testimonythere's this character. Let me
just make up a face for him.Yeah, yeah. Every everyone is
based on a photo reference thatI've been able to find.
Yeah. And I noticed at one pointon the film website, the
(11:42):
Survivor film website, wasyou also had a list of images of
of people's faces where you wereasking for help to identify who
they were. I wondered if you didhave any response at all? When
we were
setting up the website, I askedfor that, that portion to be on
there, because I'm interested,like every time I've found out
(12:06):
the name of someone I used as areference, there's a whole story
there, and it just expands theknowledge of the whole thing
even further. So,
yeah, it's, it's endlessstories, isn't it, that you're
encountering. So, yes,authenticity, authenticity is
absolutely critical to to thisfilm, and I was interested
(12:31):
actually in your own research,visits to concentration camps,
and especially in terms ofpersonal courage, because the
impact is so huge, and Iwondered how you negotiated that
impact. Is it because everythinghas such a clear purpose for
(12:56):
you, you know, to tell the truthand and, of course, to inform
this film as accurately aspossible.
Yeah, so I did two main trips,and the first was to Auschwitz.
Yeah. I was really trying tomake sure that I was getting
photo references of thelocations that were in the film,
(13:18):
so that I could actually drawthings so that they were from
the correct angles down there onthe ground, like in the
children's barracks or or in theditch that he was digging in,
like I would know what I wouldknow spatially, what would be
(13:40):
around him when I actually putthat together? So there was two
trips, and yeah, I was veryfocused on making it as accurate
as possible. That was toAuschwitz. And then the second
one was staying in Munich andthen driving out each day to
different locations, likeDachau. This is an interesting
(14:03):
story. I met the historian atDachau, a guy called Christoph,
and I was really looking for inIvor's testimony, he
escaped through a fence. There was ashelling to a fence, and he ran
through, okay, and I went tospeak to Christoph, the
historian at Dachau, trying tofind Okay, which fence had the
(14:27):
shelling on it. And he said, nofences had any shelling at
Dachau. I was like, Okay. And hesaid, In our office, we've got a
theory that Ivor was in Allach,which is one town over, and
we're like, okay, we want ourfilm to be authentic as
(14:47):
possible. So we got an Uber andwent straight to Allach, which
was like this random town, andall that was left of the camp
was one barrack, which is usedas the locker room for the local
sports center. And yeah, we werelooking around there, and the
(15:10):
more I found out about theplace, luckily, I bought a book
which had a map of the place inthere that a prisoner had drawn,
and it aligned perfectly withIvor's testimony of what you
said, escaping through a fence,seeing a watchtower to his left,
and across the field, seeing ananti aircraft battery. So it's
this thing of like, start, Istarted with the survivor
(15:33):
testimony, but then, you know, Ifollowed it up and and it's part
of what's complicated is you'vegot these big camp names that
everyone knows about, likeAuschwitz and Dachau, apart from
that 40% of Americans that yousaid earlier. But then there's
these 1000s of sub camps. Andpeople can be in a sub camp and
(15:56):
think they're in Auschwitz,yeah, and it's just, it's
utterly confusing, becausethere's so many of them.
That's incredible. I have readthe book, and I know exactly
that that section of the storyyou're talking about, because,
of course, that was a reallyterrifying choice to make a run
(16:20):
for it. And of course, there'sthis heartbreaking scenario
where his brother repeatedlysaves his life. And this was
another example, wasn't it, ofsharing bravery to make a run
for it, and in that blind panic,how would you really possibly
know where you were? And you'veactually been able to identify
(16:41):
that. Yeah. I mean, it really,it really is a testimony, isn't
it, to how accurate andauthentic this particular film
is. It's really honoring truth.
Yeah, I created all these sortof maps that I was able to piece
together, of that prisoner's mapthat he made aerial photos from
(17:06):
that the allies took, and thencomparing it to my photos on the
ground on the day. And, yeah, itwas just, it was really
something where, when I sat downto actually draw the piece, I
had everything that I needed tocreate it.
Yeah, it's really complex,dedicated investigative work.
But then also, like, the crazything is that that camp was
(17:27):
there to supply slave labor forBMW. Oh, wow. It's just
all these companies that areinvolved. Wow. So
I understand another importantreference point for you in terms
of authentically creating yourfilm set was the Holocaust
(17:50):
artist David Olère, and thishas particular importance
because his paintings are basedon his own experience of the
crematorium the gas chambers atAuschwitz, where actually no
photographs were taken. So hispaintings may be the only
(18:13):
accurate reference point to goto. So I was interested in how
you not only worked with hispaintings as a reference point,
but how on earth do you manageinhabiting such traumatic
details at the same time?
(18:36):
It's all traumatic. But thething is, there's a reason for
it, which is trying to achieveaccuracy in the film. So I think
because of that reasoning, I wasable to, you know, get through
it all his his, it was hispaintings, but also his sketches
that I was looking at. And theywere just really, really
(18:59):
helpful, because Ivor, hisbrother, David was working in
the Sonderkommando, but in thebook, it's kind of, he's across
the wall and he's throwing breadover to Iver. But we don't
really see, we don't really seeDavid's story that much. So
looking at the drawings of Davidin the Sonderkommando, you get an
(19:22):
idea of what their daily routineis and how it all works. So,
yeah, I was, I was reallylooking at the compositions of
David Olère and other Holocaustartists and using them as the
jumping off point. Also, youknow, if there was, like, a
truck or something shot.There's, there's a sketch
(19:44):
somewhere which has the thelicense plate, or, you know, you
can get it really accurate. Sothere were two main artists. I
bought two books in Auschwitz.One was David Olère and the other
was this thing called thesketchbook from Auschwitz. And
it's, we don't know who did allthese sketches, but it was found
(20:05):
under a barrack. So these twoexamples, like show the two
different sides of working inthe Sonderkommando and then just
being a regular prisoner aswell. So yeah, there's all sorts
of references and things andlittle details in the film which
(20:28):
would relate to these sketches,if you were to compare them.
Yeah, yeah. And these aremiracle finds, aren't they,
that, for example, thosesketches had even survived.
Just
just just from the other sidein a antique shop in Munich, I
found these two books, andthey're a bit like when a kid
(20:50):
collects, uh, stickers of like,footballers or, you know,
collectible, you know,collectors cards, yeah. But it
was made in like early in thewar for the Germans, and it was
all the different uniforms anddifferent tanks and things and
stuff, and someone had gone tothe effort of collecting every
(21:14):
single sticker. And anyway, Ibought these two books, and that
gave me references for all themilitary uniforms and and and
the anti aircraft artillery thatwas in the film later on. So
it's just weird. Who keeps therecords? You know, there's the
victims and the perpetratorsboth records.
(21:37):
Yeah, yeah. But in terms oftruth telling and historical
records, these have all beenvital finds. I also understand
there was a connection that youmay have even found through your
film research, a connectionbetween the artist David Olère
(22:01):
and Ivor's older brother. They
would have been around aroundthe same time because, of
course, well, David survived,David Olère, but Ivor's brother,
David didn't. It's the casewhere I explain we know David
was there. David, David, Ivor'sbrother, but I didn't want to
(22:26):
make up a character to be thesecond person in there, yeah,
but I'd been referencing DavidOlère's drawings a lot, and I
felt it was only right that hewould feature in the film
itself. Yeah, yeah. It's thatthing of, okay, you could either
(22:48):
not have David Olère and make upa person, or you could put him
in, because he's literally in ascene which is referencing one
of his own sketches,
right. Yeah, yeah. And anotherconnection, um, is with your own
great uncle, who I understandwas imprisoned at Auschwitz, but
(23:13):
liberated the same day as Ivorfrom Dachau. Yeah, yeah. So how
did you uncover these particulardetails? Well,
this has been in kind of myfamily history, like told down
through my family. I mean,growing up, I thought he was the
(23:35):
only person in my family who'dbeen through the Holocaust, and
he wasn't my you know, he wasn'talive during my lifetime, but it
was something that my mom and mygrandparents told me about. But
yeah, it turns out he isn't theperson my family who was killed
(23:57):
in the Holocaust. Turns out Ihad a whole section of my
family, who were Latvian, whowere, they were shot in the
woods. I think it was called theRumbula massacre. So it goes to
show, like a lot of people, theymay know about one or two people
in their family who got killed,but actually, there's, there's
(24:19):
usually more that the olderfamily just didn't want to talk
about.
Yeah, yeah, too traumatizing andtoo tragic. So with this in
mind, I mean this scale ofatrocity, which sadly never
seems to leave the world, do youfeel there is a growing
(24:39):
importance for productions thatare specifically grounded in
historical accuracy and in termsof teaching against the dangers
that we've seen of propagandaand autocracy.
I, I just think it's importantto tell the truth. Yeah, yeah.
(25:04):
And I don't like this thing oflike, you shouldn't be able to
just use the Holocaust as asetting to tell your own made up
story inside it, yeah, becauseit's muddying the water a bit,
and we want to create a recordfor people who come after us
like there'll come a point wherethere won't be any Holocaust
(25:30):
survivors to tell their story,and it's up to us to keep the
record and not distort it in anyway.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's notjust an arena to create hero
stories. It really is abouttruth telling and representing
those voices. And of course,Ivor's voice is incredibly
(25:55):
important, and from variousconferences and talks I've seen
with Ivor online, he alwaysmaintains love will get you
further than hate, despiteeverything he's been through,
and he always raises theimportant question, What has the
world learned from us? So I wasalso interested in how, when the
(26:22):
screenplay was being created,and, of course, all of this
really important research, howyou felt you could match all of
those details visually. Did youever feel it wouldn't be
possible? Because obviouslyit's, it's painstaking and
(26:43):
investigative work that's beeninvolved. Yeah,
so, I mean, we started with
these scripts of the wholething, one of the big
challenges, we didn't want tomake up any dialog so, but
luckily, there was a lot ofdialog in the testimony. So,
yeah, we went with the dialogthat was there.
(27:06):
I started.
I made a storyboard, which wasquite easy for me, because
experience with cartooning inthe past, yeah, and that was
good, because you could drawthings like a general idea of
what the scene would be withouttoo much of the detail. And then
in the later stages, you do moreresearch and you refine it until
(27:27):
it's accurate as possible. Therewas a there was part where I was
in Kaufering, which is oneof these sub camps
actually, and from thetestimony, I just knew that he
was going somewhere to in a sortof underground area, and I
(27:48):
wasn't really sure what itmeant. So in the earlier
sketches, it was like he wasmining with these people. He was
being forced to mine because Iknew there was some camps where
they had to do that. And thenlater on, I found out, no, he
was actually being taken to thissort of mega bunker where the
(28:09):
Nazis were building and anaircraft factory inside of the
fake hill that they werebuilding, wow, so that the
Allies wouldn't see it from fromabove. Yeah, and it was, it
wasn't the only one. It waslike, one of four or five.
And it's just like, that's thething.
(28:31):
I think you with this story andthe subjects. It's not that you
tend to exaggerate things, it'syou tend to under exaggerate or
under underestimate things,yeah, yeah, the scale is
actually infinitely bigger thanyou can imagine. Yeah, yeah. And
(28:51):
I think Ivor actually said this,like we we play down what
happened to us when we talkabout it, yeah.
What's the understanding ofthat? How, how does it feel that
that is possible, that that thisscale of atrocity can be played
down?
(29:12):
Well, it's just, it's, I don'tknow, I can't speak for anyone
else. It's, I think it's tootraumatizing. And you find that,
like, the things that, like, forexample, with either the things
that make him really sad are orthe things that the subject is
(29:32):
so traumatizing that the pain isusually put into something that
isn't that, if that makes sense.Yeah. So Ivor, like, one of
the main things is that his mumleft the chicken soup under the
tree before they went on thecattle truck, or that Ivor
really wanted this torch becausehe had to walk to and back from
(29:54):
home to his Cheder, which is aschool for Jewish children. So
in the dark, and he wanted thistorch, but when he bought it, he
was so excited to have it, hewas running with it, and it
smashed. And that and thechicken soup are sort of seems
like what all that pain is
(30:15):
centered into, because it's toopainful to think about the
actual trauma.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And thatreally makes sense, of course,
because it's things that areleft behind and things that are
destroyed, things that arebroken, yeah. And they are very
visually clear and clear partsof the story in his book, of
course. And of course, the titleof the book, it made me curious
(30:39):
as well, actually, about, insome ways, the film title,
obviously Survivor. We know,against all the odds, Ivor and
his brother did survive. But atthe same time, what does
surviving really look like?Because, as we were just saying,
you know, there is so much hugetrauma, and of course, it took,
(31:00):
I think, decades didn't itbefore Ivor's family persuaded
him to actually write his ownstory, and that feeds into
exactly what you were saying. Itwas too traumatizing to revisit
and to go back to. So maybesurviving is about being of
(31:21):
service to remembrance andeducation.
Yeah, it's about, well, I thinkit was one of the early
conversations I had with him waslike, it's not just, I think it
was a conversation I was havingwith for him about covid
actually, because it was, it wasabout, are you surviving for the
sake of just staying alive or ordo you want, do you want to live,
(31:46):
there's a difference betweensurviving and living I think,
yeah, surviving is like you'renot dead, but living is like
you're actually doing things.You got goals and aspirations
and doing things that areimportant.
So I was also interested intalking to you about the
(32:06):
incredible detail and workthat's gone into soundscaping
and the music and the vocalsthat have been included. I mean,
I imagine this has been anabsolutely massive part of the
production in itself.Definitely,
definitely, just on the on themusic side, I wanted to have the
(32:29):
music kind of in three, threeparts, you know, like at the
beginning, to have like theactual sort of things that would
sound like the music from thetime. But then at the moment
that they're taken into thecastle, trucks have that
abruptly end, and then over thecourse of the actual main chunk
(32:53):
of the film, which is within theHolocaust, to go with, like a
something where I was lookinginto early industrial music,
early electronic music, becauseI wanted it to sound foreign to
the style of music at thebeginning, like, for these
(33:13):
people, their introduction to,like the modern sort of
electrified world was theHolocaust, like this was the
modern world hitting them. Andso that's that's why I wanted,
like the sort of industrialsounding music. I think there's
a track in there which is likefrom 1922 and it that's called
(33:38):
Symphony of Industrial Horns.And I think it was Soviet, but
it's still got that sort of,like, industrial, militaristic
thing to it. And I don't know, Ijust feel like, um, I've seen a
lot of Holocaust films, andthere's all usually, like, the
music in it is quite nice. Like,like, or sounds quite somber and
(34:05):
pleasant in a way, but I feellike that's giving you somewhere
to escape into whilst you'reseeing the horrific things.
Yeah, whereas I wanted somethingthat would just be horrific in
itself as well, along with it,and actually not take you out of
(34:27):
what you're saying. But thenonce the Holocaust is over,
we've got nice music again, andit's, it's a relief, in a way, I
think, like when I've donescreenings and things, it's, you
know, that section of the filmis just something you have,
you're getting through. It's abit of an ordeal. But then, then
you get to the end, and it's,it's because you've, you've,
(34:49):
you're following Ivor through thestory, and when, when it's good
for Ivor, you feel goodyourself. Yeah,
absolutely, yeah, absolutely.But as you were saying at the
same time, it's not been to kind of help the viewers
experience with gentle music,because something is so
traumatic and harrowing. It isbrutal honesty, whether you're
(35:11):
looking at it or hearing it,yeah.
But then, just to say, likeErran Baron Cohen came in and he
did this incredible theme, well,I guess it's called Ivor's theme.
So he wrote music that would beassociated with either different
moods and things that it carriesout throughout the film. And I
(35:31):
think it really because beforeit was just, I had different
tracks that I liked, but itthere was no one track that you
could say this is the track thatyou associate with the film,
right? And so he came in and hebrought that to the table, which
was really good, yeah, and, andit has different stuff, like it
(35:52):
follows, like I said, thosedifferent stages of the film,
the Survivor suites that hewrote, goes through those
different stages itself as well.
And I also saw it was anInstagram clip, and it was
featuring Pini Brown's vocal, Ithink it's a scene from a
(36:15):
displaced persons camp in 1945and just from that short clip,
clip, I mean, I mean, I find histhe magnitude of of his vocals
are, are enormous. The theemotional depths in there is
astonishing. And this is justfrom a few seconds, you know, of
(36:36):
a making of clip. Buttechnically, I was also
fascinated, of course, by howyou manage that kind of
minuscule detail, you know, ofof the mouth moving, you know,
to complement the vocals of, youknow, the puppets movements
complementing the vocals soincredibly realistically.
(37:01):
It's just I've had a lot ofpractice making these puppets,
and it all started during thelockdown, when I had the time to
develop that skill. So yeah, Iwas able to make this head that
with the mouth could move andthe eyebrows could move, and the
book could be moving as well,all whilst the cameras moving as
(37:22):
well. Yeah, no, it's I wasreally looking forward to
filming that scene because Iknew it was near the end, and I
knew it was a nice scene tofilm. Just an interesting fact
is the cantor so the singerwho's in that scene is actually
(37:43):
Pini's teacher's, teacher.
Oh, wow. So another connectionthat's just incredible, isn't it
Crazy
connections, crossing thestory. So the singing style and
everything should have beencarried down to Pini. So
it's just amazing, isn't it?It's absolutely amazing. And
(38:03):
obviously, you know, listenersmay may be interested to to
understand that. You know, PiniBrown obviously does have his
own singing career. And in fact,I will be, I will be putting
plenty of relevant linkssignposted on your episode page.
And just as I said earlier,about like, wanting to find out
(38:23):
names about different people,like he was one where I had this
reference, found out his nameMoshe Kraus, and he's got his
own incredible story of he heonly survived because the
commandant liked hearing himsing.
Yeah, yeah, it's astonishing,isn't it. And the same as having
(38:46):
orchestras created to satisfythe whim of a murderer. Yeah.
Well,
the orchestra thing is quitecrazy to me, because I always
like, I'd hear, like, Holocaustdeniers say it can't have been that
bad because they had anorchestra. An orchestra, right?
But really, they're there tokeep the timing of the marching
(39:09):
to work, you can see in thebeat. And also, the Nazis tell
them what to what to play. Andthey they're constantly getting
them to play things that arejust really ironic in a dark
way, like in the film, it's ShowMe the Way to go Home. Wow.
Wow. So perverse, isn't it.Yeah, so putting all this
(39:33):
together, I mean, you've,obviously, you've, you've
achieved so much in a short time.Overall, I can really see a
consistent emphasis aroundeducation. You've got a really
strong sense of responsibilityaround around teaching, not
only, you know, representing, ofcourse, historical truth, but
(39:55):
also encouraging the importance of visual literacy as part
of our education. And I saw thatyou became a young ambassador
for the Big Draw and forlisteners the Big Draw is the
world's biggest celebration ofdrawing and arts. It's an
education charity, and I wasreally interested in learning
(40:19):
more about that, how you'reinvolved, and the kind of
educative role that you're ableto take there,
yeah. So I, I've been involvedwith them quite a long time. It
was more so when I was a kid,like, because I'm not really a
kid cartoonist anymore, yeah. Sothat, that, that thing of me
(40:39):
being a kid who can speak toother kids. You know, I'm an
adult now, so I'm not asinvolved as I used to be, but I
still think it's reallyimportant the work they do. And,
you know, I did a lot of eventsaround the country and going
into schools and things, talkingto children and just just
showing that, like showingphotos of me their age, selling my
(41:04):
comics and doing things and itbeing encouraging to them. Also,
you know, when I've gone in andI've done comic workshops in the
past, it's usually thenaughtiest kid in the class who
ends up being the most engaged.
That's interesting. What do youthink that correlation is? Just
(41:26):
bored? Yeah. School is
not really speaking tothem so, but also it's if you're
frustrated as well. It's anoutlet, because, you know, you
can, you can draw the thingthat's annoying you.
Yeah. And I think it goes backto what we said earlier about
(41:46):
the importance of recognizingeveryone has learning
preferences. There's differentthere's different ways of
learning. And for example,visual learning can be more
effective than asking someone tostudy a book as one example.
Yeah. So I was really interestedin the importance of encouraging
visual literacy and that rolethrough the Big Draw. And it
(42:09):
also raised the fact thatresponsibility also comes,
doesn't it, with comedy andcartoons. So that work you've
done, done in the past,particularly around caricature.
And of course, that was a crueltool of propaganda for the
Nazis. So you must be very hyperaware of responsibility when
(42:35):
you're combining comedy andcartoons. Yeah,
that was, that was a increasingthing that was on my mind, up to
the point that I left PrivateEye, and was mainly about, like,
when you're doing satire, itfeels like, usually you're
pushing yourself towardsexaggeration, yeah. But then
(43:00):
certain things like, it's justirresponsible to exaggerate, or
if you exaggerate with a bias,then it's basically propaganda
as well. So I've always likewanted to make cartoons, which I
would study, study the subject abit and then do something make,
(43:24):
like, exaggerate, but based on,like, a core idea of or
understanding of the subject,you know. And then what's
interesting is people would lookat the cartoon and then project
their own opinions onto it. Yeah,yeah. And then that it becomes
the kind of like, you know, inDoctor Who, where he holds up,
(43:47):
like, his, his blank piece ofpaper, and, and, and the other
person reads it and says, Oh,you're this. Then, yeah, I like
that, you know, like, because itjust reveals where someone else
is coming from, when they, whenthey, when they interpret it.
So, yeah,
(44:09):
another thing on this subjectis, I collect hyperinflation
banknotes. Oh, okay. Oh, that'sinteresting. And I've got, I've
got a few from Weimar Republic,and actually, part of the
propaganda that the Nazis didbefore they came into power was
they printed caricatures ofJewish people onto the banknotes
(44:31):
so that people would associatethe hyperinflation and the
crisis
and blame the Jews. Yeah, yeah,yeah, absolutely. And this is
what's so sinister, isn't it, interms of weaponising
discrimination, it starts somuch sooner. So in this context
(44:52):
of the Holocaust, it's notsomething that suddenly happens.
It's been seeded for a long timeand through mechanisms like
that. And of course, this iswhere education can walk a fine
line. And I think Ivor makes areally important point about
this, that yes, education, ofcourse, is vital, and as we were
(45:14):
saying at the beginning,particularly to restore vital
information to modern memory andunderstanding the horrors of the
Holocaust as one example, hasthe purpose of trying to not let
history repeat itself, althoughthe world repeatedly fails to do
(45:36):
that. But he makes the pointthat Germany, of course, was one
of the most, if not the mosteducated country in the world at
that time. Yeah,
and that that's the, I thoughtyou were gonna lead to that
point, because I've heard himsay it a few times, and yeah,
education isn't enough.There's some other factor. And
(46:03):
that's the thing. There's a lotof open ended questions when it
comes to this subject, becauseobviously, education isn't enough.
There has to be something else.But I feel like as the director
and this is my first interviewabout the film. Thank you so
much. I don't think I should betelling people what message they
(46:25):
need to take. Or I don't need totell people what that other
thing is, other than education,it's, I think it's up for people
to try and work out what thatanswer is. Because I just feel
like I'm it's sort of cheapeningthings. If I just give this is
the answer, because I don't knowmyself. This is, like a really
big question, yeah,
(46:47):
yeah. And also, you know, it's,it's a thought process, isn't
it? And people will arrive atthings in different ways, but at
the same time, because you canbe so completely assured that
you have created a story basedon truth, the fact checking, the
(47:09):
authenticity that you you canleave the film there can't you
in many ways, because youhaven't got to have any doubts
about misinformation or tryingto even emotionally exploit how
people respond.
Yeah, I don't think there's anyneed. I mean, the film exists
(47:31):
now, so just encourage people togo and see it.
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean,yeah, absolutely. I cannot say
how this can't become one of themost important statement films
within these educationalcontexts and archives
documenting this history becauseof the painstaking accuracy.
(47:55):
I'm just interested, likethese anti-Semites or Holocaust
deners that I've seen online,what they would make of this
film if they were to watch it?Because it just seems like a
cognitive dissonance orsomething like, but like, how
can you that's the thing is,like Ivor is at the center of
(48:19):
it. He's a 12 year old boy, canyou really justify what's
happening?
Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.Can
you? Can you? Well, I don't knowfrom what angle you can say this
didn't happen to him as well. So
no, absolutely. I mean, and thenthere is no possible
justification. And again, itreminds me of David Olère's
(48:43):
paintings, which I reallystruggle to look at. Doesn't
matter how many books I've read,brilliant films, I've seen,
poetry, I've read, it's, it's ofsuch a horrific scale, which, as
I've said before, hasn't reallyleft the world. We see conflict
(49:03):
repeatedly, but even in thosepaintings, you know, we're
talking about Ivor as a 12 yearold. But of course, those
paintings with piles of babies,you know that the possibility of
creating such cruelty, andconsent to that cruelty on a
(49:25):
mass scale is incomprehensible.
Yeah, it's been interesting tolike some of the Nazi Nazis who
feature in the in the film, likewho they were, what was their
mindset and things, you know,some people like, I think
(49:45):
there's one which had frontallobe syndrome, just like he
literally had, I don't know,part of his brain, missing the
bit that gives you a conscience.Well, yeah, there were people
who, like, people who were.Ideological, where they just
thought, this is kind of bad,but we've got to do it because
(50:08):
it's for the survival whatever.
And then there was,
you know, people who are justcowardly as well. Actually, I
didn't use this film forreference, because I actually
watched it quite late in theproject. But Come and See
there's a bit where, like,they've caught this Nazi, and
(50:31):
they were like, Why did you tryto kill our children? And he
says, like, if we don't kill thechildren, they'll come for us
when they grow up, right? Andthen there's the scene at the
end where this kid, who's he'sjoined, like the Russian army,
and he's been through, like thethick of it all through, and he
(50:52):
sees this painting of Hitler onthe floor, and he's holding this
gun, which hasn't used for thewhole film, and he's shooting
the photo of Hitler. And there'sthis kind of like artsy thing
where every time he shoots, wesee like historical footage
going back in time. Wow, yeah.And every time he shoots, it
(51:12):
goes further and further back tothe point where Hitler's a
child, is just a photo of him asa baby, and he can't, he can't
shoot the photo anymore, becausehe'd be doing what the the Nazi
had said earlier, where he said,You've got to kill the children
before they and it was justlike, it's another one of those
(51:33):
open ended questions, where,like, yeah, yeah. What would you
do?
Yeah. It's really significant,cyclical revenge. And again, I
think Ivor's life experience,including bearing witness for
(51:56):
courts for Nazi criminals beingbrought to justice. He made such
an important point that thisparticular criminal, who may
have even been 90, butparticularly old and frail, came
in assisted by nurses eitherside of him and Ivor himself
(52:19):
said he could never find thesame hatred. He could never fall
into that trap, if you like, ofof revenge, even actually, he
talks about this in the book.When liberation came, there were
some opportunities, obviously,for victims and prisoners to
(52:42):
retaliate, and some soldiersassisted that Allied soldiers
would assist that they couldhurl stones, for example. And
Ivor consistently says in hisbook and story, he could never
find that within him, isn't isn'tthat the most critical part of
the education we need, becausewhere does cyclical revenge get
(53:06):
us?
It's even just that thing of,don't hate love. I mean, that
sounds like something thatsomeone, you know it, if it's
not coming from Ivor, itdoesn't sound genuine, but he's
been through all of it, sadly.You know that, okay, like, if
someone, someone from my olduni, or something, posted, like,
(53:29):
don't hate, love, it wouldn'tmean much to me. But if Ivor
said it, you know it, it hasweight to it, so it takes on a
whole new meaning.
Yes, you know, yeah, it'sincredibly powerful. Because
it sounds simple, but comingfrom him, it means a lot. Yeah,
(53:50):
there's a big differencebetween a kind of 60s hippie
love vibe and someone, yeah, whohas survived. Yeah, no, exactly
that, exactly that the power andweight, the wisdom that can only
come from those people, fromthose survivors, has to be
attended to, and there isabsolutely no room for denial.
(54:14):
But I think we are in a crisis.We are in an age of
disinformation. We are in an agewhere denial is made for the
sake of denial, and it reallydoes come back, doesn't it, to
the importance of education. Andeven though there are 1000s of
things I could go on to, onething I'd like to highlight is,
of course, and in response towhat we were just saying, the
(54:37):
Holocaust Memorial Day 2025 isfor a better future, and it's
asserting our collectiveresponsibility to shape a better
future. And it's also the yearof the 80th anniversary of the
liberation, not only of 1000s ofconcentration camps, but as
(54:58):
you've mentioned, sub camps.Camps and slave labor camps
right across Europe. So I'mreally interested Zoom as to how
the film Survivor can continueto have a role, particularly in
association with these eventsnext year, particularly as a
statement film, a statement filmto help teach that prejudice
(55:23):
must never be normalized.Discrimination can't be
weaponized.
Well, I think it's all containedin the film. You know, like
we've been discussing about it,it does hit all these different
points. And you know, the thingabout Ivor's story is he's been
through so many of these keylocations which are important to
(55:43):
know about for education on theHolocaust, like Auschwitz,
Dachau, you know, these are thebig ones we already know about.
But then also touches on thesubcamp system. And then you
also see the other two sides ofthe Holocaust, which are that
life leading up to it, and thethe anti semitism that already
(56:05):
existed and the hatred that wasalready sort of brewing there,
and also liberation, how youdust yourself off and make a
life for yourself after that.And yeah, but I don't want to
get into like saying, Oh, thisis what this film's all about,
(56:27):
yeah, because of what I saidearlier, is such a heavy,
important subject that it'sreally for the viewer to to take
away what they're going to takeaway from the film. But I
recommend people see the film.Oh
yeah, absolutely, yeah,wholeheartedly. And so Zoom that
(56:49):
hour has actually zoomed by. ButI do always ask all of the
guests what their response is tothe series question, Can art
save us? And obviously we'vebeen talking about visual
literacy, visual literacy, ifyou like, as a route to history
(57:12):
learning truth. So how do yourespond to that idea? Can art
save us?
Well, I think it can, becausejust taking that education
angle, you know, I was a seven,seven year old kid who didn't
know he had a hearing problemand was doing terrible in
school, really bad literacy andstarting comics and doing art
(57:38):
was my way of becoming engagedand processing the world and and
everything and and I, there area lot of people who just told
me, you know, Zoom, you'rewasting your time. You know
you're wasting your time. Come, come play with us, why
are you drawing this comic. ButI've stuck with it, and it's led
me to this point. So it justgoes to show, if you like, start
(58:01):
from an early age and do thingsrather than just sit and talk
about it. You can get quite farwith it. Yeah,
absolutely. Well, well,
zoom, I can't thank you enough,not only for making the time
when I well the months ofintense production you've been
(58:22):
in, and the grueling andpainstaking investigative
research that you've been doingis just so impressive. And to
give me the honor of being yourfirst interview for this film, I
cannot thank you enough. And forthe listeners, I will be
signposting multiple links,including, of course, the
(58:42):
website for the film, so you canfollow Zoom find out more.
Please make sure that you go andsee this film once information
is released. And thank you verymuch for listening in and as
always, please do considersharing this free to listen
series to help make the arts allof ours and Zoom, thank you so
(59:05):
much. And I wish you all theluck in the world with this
fantastic and important film.Thank you. Thank you. You.
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