The Art of Incarceration - Groundbreaking Prison Art and Documentary

What happens when the judicial system we're taught to trust is in fact part of a complex web of systemic failure and structural discrimination on vast scales? My guests in this episode have raised one of the most important spotlights on systemic failure in Australia's prison system. Indigenous Australians are one of the most incarcerated people in the world. Alex Siddons is the director of the groundbreaking feature documentary, The Art of Incarceration, which is currently available on Netflix. He won unprecedented access to film at the Indigenous Unit of Victoria's Fulham Correctional Center. Christopher Austin is a lead participant in the documentary and he was incarcerated from the age of 11. And by the time he was 46, the longest time he had spent in society at any one time was nine months. There's nothing sketchy about this documentary and crime isn't excused. But the repeat cycle of crime and over representation of Indigenous Australians is explored in order to find solutions. Through the personal stories of in-mates the documentary raises the relevance and legacy of colonial history of 'Stolen Generations,' the displacement and disadvantage that feed into the prison system today. Alex spotlights how hope and positive change is literally painted through The Torch, a ground-breaking art program. The program connects indigenous inmates to their culture and strengthens cultural identity through the practice of art. It recognizes that people who are disenfranchised from their dominant culture become too disconnected to rehabilitate successfully. Christopher Austin and Alex Siddons take part in this episode. Christopher shares his personal experience of being displaced and incarcerated from the age of 11. He is a unique survivor of the prison system and today is both an artist and pioneer for change. He is now The Torch’s, Indigenous Program Mentor, in itself a huge landmark for change in which he leads. Alex Siddons, is a dedicated filmmaker and his documentary not only raised a vital spotlight on this human rights issue but a brotherhood too. The consent and collaboration of prisoners is further testimony to the Torch Arts Programme, successfully cultivating connection, cultural respect, real change and a future outside of the traps both in and outside of prison. 

Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.

Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb

Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview, news, reviews and your host, Paula Moore, are here: www.canartsaveus.com

Discover The Art of Incarceration on Netflix and the Director Alex Siddons: www.alexsiddons.com

Support and Discover The Torch Art Programme: www.thetorch.org.au

Buy art by First Nations people, vouchers and gifts: www.thetorch.org.au/shop-2/

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to

(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflict. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? For

(00:50):
too many people around the worldjustice is sketchy or even
absent, our freedoms and humanrights aren't a given and
justice is often a long, hardand noble struggle, but what
happens when the judicial systemwe're taught to trust is in fact
part of a complex web ofsystemic failure. That web of

(01:13):
failure can produce structuraldiscrimination and inequality on
vast scales we might not imagineor even see. My guests today
have raised one of the mostimportant spotlights on systemic
failure in Australia's prisonsystem. Indigenous Australians
are one of the most incarceratedpeople in the world. Alex

(01:37):
Siddons is the director of thegroundbreaking feature
documentary The Art ofIncarceration, which is
currently available on Netflix.He won unprecedented access to
film at the Indigenous Unit ofVictoria's Fulham Correctional
Center. Christopher Austin is alead participant in the
documentary and he wasincarcerated from the age of 11.

(02:02):
And by the time he was 46, thelongest time he had spent in
society at any one time was ninemonths. There's nothing sketchy
about this documentary and crimeisn't excused. But the repeat
cycle of crime and overrepresentation of Indigenous
Australians is explored in orderto find solutions. Through the

(02:27):
personal stories of inmates thedocumentary explores the
relevance and legacy of colonialhistory, of Stolen Generations,
displacement and disadvantagethat feed into the prison system
today. Alex spotlights how hopeand positive change is literally
painted through the Torch Artprogram. The program connects

(02:51):
indigenous inmates to theirculture and strengthens cultural
identity through the practice ofart. It recognizes that people
who are disenfranchised fromtheir dominant culture become
too disconnected to rehabilitatesuccessfully. It seems the cycle
of long term incarceration is astructural as a spider's web.

(03:13):
It's designed for entrapment,and not rehabilitation. Hello,
Christopher and Hello, Alex.
Hello, Paula. Hello, thank you,
how are you going?
Thank you ever so much forjoining me and making the time
today. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Something I wanted to
include just before we started chatting is the statement that

(03:38):
you include at the top of thedocumentary and I'll quote it,
"Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander viewers are advised
that the film contains imagesand voices of people who have
died." And so in this podcast,I'd like to acknowledge we may
also be making reference topeople who have died. Alex, I

(04:01):
wondered if we could begin withhow you gained such
unprecedented access to film atVictoria's Fulham Correctional
Center. Yeah,
thank you. Um, well, basically,I met all 160 kilos of Robbie
Wirramanda who alongside Christopherand Troy, the main subjects of

(04:24):
the film and he had recentlybeen released from a five year
stint. And I met him and hebegan painting and being
involved in art whilst he wasincarcerated. And I met him for
another project in Sheppard andhe'd only been out for a few
months and he was, you know, Ithink Chris can agree is one of

(04:45):
the more intimidating peopleyou'll probably ever see. But
um, I met his family and histhree boys and we became friends
and I've been making shortdocumentaries just about people
I've met really, throughoutMelbourne and Robbie and I
discussed the prospect of adocumentary and not long after
that I'd received a paintingthat had been painted inside

(05:08):
Fulham. So somehow I got incontact with a man called Philip
Gosselin who basically was thesort of PR media person for the
prison. And I caught up forcoffee with him and I said,
Look, I want to go inside theprison and speak to the artists.
And he just responded with, it'sextremely difficult to do almost
impossible, but we'll give it ago. So after about, I think

(05:31):
almost about 10 months to behonest, we got an email back
from Fulham and Corrections Victoria, saying that we could,
that I could go inside andspeak. So we traveled up to
Fulham in Gippsland. And I gotto the prison and I shook a
hand with a few of the screws,which they call the prison
guards here. And I walkedthrough a door that was 30

(05:53):
kilos, and straight into theyard, really. And I learned
pretty quickly that keep my eyesdown because I was just looking
around. And, you know, there'sabout 50 staunch prisoners there
staring at me. So I was like,Alright, so we walked through,
we walked through the prison.And they said, I'm gonna take
you to meet Christopher Austin,who's the elder in the

(06:13):
Aboriginal unit there. And theysaid, Chris has been in since
the age of 11. And he's from avery famous family, which I knew
because you know, many veryfamous boxers and musicians
Lionel Rose, the great boxer,and, of course, Archie Roach,
rest in peace, the greatsongman. So anyway,
they took me down to theAboriginal unit, and I walked in

(06:34):
there. And I saw Chris sittingthere with those striking blue
eyes and a few gold chains,which was interesting for
inmates to have. And I basicallyshook his hand and said, Look,
I'm interested in trying to, youknow, tell your story and do a
bit of a project on what's goingon here. And he said, Alex, I
heard about you have a seat, andI spoke to Chris, and then you

(06:56):
know, he must have liked me,thank God, because it would have
been even more intimidating ifhe didn't. But he then called in
all the boys, which was aboutI'm not sure 30 to 50 Aboriginal
prisoners, and they organizedthe screening for some of the
previous films I'd done. Andyeah, we went and did that in
like a little classroom, Iguess, the education part of the

(07:16):
prison. And I showed them some of my films and spoke to them. And
every single one of them shookmy hand and looked me in the
eyes, and I said, I'll be back.And you know, let's try and make
this documentary. And I had nofunding or anything. But that
was pretty much the start of it.So I guess it was, the short
answer is it was through myfriendship with Robbie on the
outside. And then, you know, thetrust that Christopher enriched

(07:39):
enriched me with on theinside.
Yeah, it's fascinating. Andisn't it ironic that Robbie and
Christopher are the dooropeners, even though they are
people who have had the doorclosed on them. And it's, it's
an interesting dynamic, thewillingness to participate is

(07:59):
also really courageous, but alsoyour description of how
intimidating that must have beento enter the facility. There's a
lot of courage involved, notjust in the film, but throughout
the stories of everybodyinvolved. And Christopher,
bearing in mind that Alex wastalking about how intimidating

(08:23):
it was when he he first visitedvisited the facility.
Yeah. How,
how on earth does an 11 year oldchild cope with incarceration?
Well, when you're 11, at thatage, things become more

(08:45):
like, you becomeinstitutionalized at a very
young age, and it starts offthat everything becomes easy,
for ya, everything's done forya, you don't have to worry
about nothing. We didn't have toworry about school. And plus, at
that age at 11 they controlled uswith cigarettes they will give
us smokes. And that's how theycontrolled us in there at a young

(09:10):
age, and then once you start onthat cycle, it's very hard cycle
to get off. You know, I nevermade it for a year until, like,
I mean, in my forties I nevermade it past nine months. So
it's, like a long journey. And Idon't know how I coped all the

(09:33):
time, most of the time.Sometimes I used violence when I
was younger. Then I, because Istarted, my first time I used
drugs was when I was locked upat Pentridge Prison. I never saw
a drug or anything before that,and I was already
institutionalized.

(09:55):
Yeah, I mean, the significanceof that, that it's actually
through being institutionalisedthat you're
you're introduced to drugs. Inoted in the documentary that
you talked about how scared youwere at that young age, because
you were in an all whitesetting, the unit was all white,

(10:16):
can you tell us about the impactof that? That experience of not
being able to relate to anybodyof your own culture or heritage?
That, that started
at an even earlier age,you know, they call it, we call
it a Mission. But it's stilllike the Aboriginal reserve

(10:38):
where they take you from yourcountry and put you in one
place. That's how they did itover here. And when I was five
years old, four years old, fiveyears old, me and my little
brother, we got tuberculosis,we lived out near
Warrnambool but out on theoutskirts of Warrnambool our
mission was, and they flew us toMelbourne, we were in hospital

(11:01):
for like, 18 months, me and mylittle brother. So because we're
in a hospital so long, theymoved the whole family down to
Melbourne, from the mission, andI have memories of living on the
mission, you know, we had thebest time even though we never
had running water, orelectricity, we still had
plenty to do going down to theriver, the river was our

(11:23):
backyard, and everything we justhad a ball. We've never
experienced anything beforethat. I go to hospital, I come
out of hospital in Melbourne. Wedon't know where we are we in a
suburb called Preston. And assoon as we come out of hospital,
well, I have to go to primaryschool, I go to primary school,

(11:45):
and it's the first time Iexperienced racism being
ridiculed being like treatedbad, I'd never experienced that
in my life. And within fiveyears of trying to fit in
society in Melbourne, I wasincarcerated and incarcerated

(12:06):
for a very minor reason, youknow, it was like I was with my
cousin older cousin and hismate. And we're going down the
street one day, and they said,wait here, and if someone comes
just whistle, you know, well, Ididn't know how to whistle for one
I ain't gonna tell em that and thensomeone come and we were arrested.

(12:28):
I didn't know what was going on,really. And we go to court, and
the police tell the magistratethere's like eight or nine
adults living in this house with probably the same amount of
number of kids, you know, they can't live like that. It's it's
uncontrollable, you know, forthe family. And the magistrate

(12:49):
made me a ward of the state andlocked me up in 11. And once Yeah,
once I got on that cycle, Inever knew anything else. You
know, and I'll, I realize nowlater in life, that my journey
at that age, you know, I wasvery confused and mixed up, I
didn't know where I fitted inanywhere. You know, I didn't fit

(13:12):
in with Australian society.Because I wasn't born that way.
And I didn't fit in my owncommunity, because I was taken
away from it.
Yeah, there's a significantstory of theft in terms of how
vulnerable you were how you weretripped into

(13:36):
institutionalization forsomething so minor without
really any sense of childwelfare, child development, or
child protection. And for thelisteners, I just would like to
add, who may not be familiarwith some of the shocking

(13:57):
history that you're picking upon. But children that were
forcibly removed from familiesand displaced was in relation to
what was known as Removal orAssimilation policies. And just
to give the listeners context,it was estimated that as many as

(14:17):
one in three indigenous childrenwere taken between 1910 and the
1970s. And what this actuallymeant were they were being
forced to assimilate into nonIndigenous society and culture,
and they were refused access totheir family. They were stopped
from speaking their nativelanguage, or even using their

(14:40):
birth name. In fact, thegovernment didn't keep records
of birth dates, or the places ofbirth of many of the children.
And I wanted to justcontextualize that the
seriousness of how this has beenconstructed, and really my
reference in the introduction that systemic failure really is

(15:06):
a structural as a spider's web.And it feels much more like
entrapment. And what reallystood out to me was the quote
from Uncle Jack Charles, whoreports in the documentary, the
high level of incarceration ofFirst Nations people, and the

(15:26):
fact that of course, it's alsoeconomically unsustainable, and
that it costs 110,000 Australiandollars per person. And 58% of
Indigenous Australians returnedto jail with within one year, I
wondered if either of you wouldlike to comment on that

(15:49):
particular statistic.
I work for the Torch program, and that's helped me turn the
corner, it showed me what happenedand why I ended up the way I did.
And we have over 800 people on ourbooks, as all clients, you know,

(16:14):
from in prison and ones thatgot out, and we've got that
percentage down to 16%. Theones that are with us.
Yeah, so it's reallysignificant, isn't it. The
take up is really significant.Christopher, I wondered if you
could tell us about yourpaintings and your personal

(16:34):
experience when you firststarted the art program? Had you
considered yourself artistic?What did artistic practice
reveal to you? How did it helpyou?
I remember, I was in prison.I've been in prison for ages
already, you know. And one day,all the boys were sitting around

(16:56):
painting and all that. So I got aguy to draw a snake and a guana
on a piece of canvas for me. AndI went in and like dotted that
out and done the painting. AndI've never felt anything like it
in my life you know. It was thebest feeling I've ever felt,
first time I've like startedsomething and finished it. And

(17:18):
the best thing I ever achieved in my life sort of thing, you know,
and it just went on from there. I've got to go back to the person.
And I said, Can you do thatagain, for me draw it on there.
And he showed me you know, justdo a line, this way of how you
wanted to face and all that. Anddoesn't matter how fat you want

(17:40):
or how skinny, you just followthat line. And that's to do a
snake. And same thing with guana. And I've done that again,
I never drew nothing in mylife before that. And it just
started off great things for me.And it gave me the best therapy

(18:00):
I can have in relaxingand all that. Keep me all going
on the straight and narrow. Andthen like later on I learned
about telling stories through myart. And say I like to tell
stories about society about howthings were for us about what

(18:23):
happened to us. And about myjourney on my travels down and
how I'm gonna help ourselves. Yeah,what works and what doesn't
work, you know?
Yeah. And Christopher, how oldwere you when you first started
the Torch Art program?
The Torch program I startedthat in about 2015 before I got

(18:46):
out of prison.
So you were in your 40s? Yeah.So for the first time in your
life in your 40s. Oh, I
would have been in my 50s. Oh, in your 50s
Okay. Yeah. And for the firsttime in your life in your 50s
you were introduced to art andto drawing in a supportive

(19:09):
environment. And yet as an 11year old child, you weren't
exposed to art therapy or otherforms of development but you
were offered smokes. Yeah,
I was I wasn't exposed to noneof my culture. I knew nothing
about my culture. I knew nothingabout where I come from. Or

(19:30):
anything. All I knew I was Aboriginal a part Aboriginal
person that had nothing. Andthen at the Torch programme,
when I started with the Torch,Australia, and especially
Victoria, you know, we have alot of different tribal areas.

(19:51):
And some people speak differentlanguages. Some people have
different cultural things, andI learned about where I was
from, my people, my landand all that. And it made me
realize about what I missed outon what my parents went through
what my grandparents wentthrough. And it started me on my

(20:13):
journey about, you know, I'm notjust a complete crook, you know,
just getting in trouble all thetime, thieving all the time, you
know, these things happen, forreasons of why I ended up down
that pathway. Yeah,
and I think what Alex has donebrilliantly in how he's made the

(20:35):
documentary is reveal that cycleof entrapment. We're not talking
about criminality, for the sakeof criminality, there's
obviously a huge story ofdisadvantage. Alex, I'll quote
you "Artwork is an expression anda form of redemption." I wondered

(21:00):
if you could elaborate on thatfor us? Yeah, well, I
think meeting the different meninside the unit, a lot of them
would tell me, you know, itwasn't until they started painting
that they felt like they hadachieved anything, or that they
had any sense of purpose. Youknow, a lot of people are
killing time, obviously, inthere. As Chris has said, what

(21:23):
was really confronting was howinstitutionalized the men were,
even, you know, the younger guyswho were like, 19, 20, they were
talking about when I get out,it's gonna be pretty hard, I'm
going to be wondering what theboys arevdoing in here. And I was,
you know, quite young, when wefirst started this big project.
And it was only sometime after Irealized, that's really

(21:43):
institutionalization, you know,they're already thinking about
coping better inside prison insociety. And, you know, it
doesn't take a genius to realizethe prison is not a positive
place. And, you know, it's avery confronting bold and grim
reality in there. So I thinkseeing the work of the Torch and
building up towards the Confinedexhibition, which is what we

(22:05):
documented the journey towards,I was seeing a team like
atmosphere in the unit, peoplewere picking up the paintbrush
who'd never painted before, youknow, the inmates were finding
out about the language group andtheir cultural heritage, and it
was just a tremendous feeling oftranscendence, and this just
incredible feeling radiatingthroughout the unit. So really,

(22:28):
it was this idea of belief, and,you know, actually building
towards something and the ideathat I can get out, and I can be
a part of this program. And youknow, I'm not just going back to
the, you know, the ghetto, youknow, the rural community or the
city, that's, you know, theHousing Commission flats, so I
can, you know, be a part of thisprogram and create something for

(22:50):
myself. And the overwhelmingfeeling I had was that these
guys hadn't had a feeling likethat before. They've never been
involved in anything like that.So I literally saw their new
future been painted before me,it was quite incredible.
It was during like, my last yearon my sentence, that the Torch,

(23:10):
were allowed to sell artworkfor prisoners before
that, it never happened, thatgot changed. And what that does,
that for me, the first time Isold the painting, it was the
first time in my life, I mademoney legally, I've never
made, I've never had a jobbefore that. And now and that,

(23:31):
like, my self worth just grewenormously, you know, and it
made me realize that I don'thave to go out and commit crime
to make money, I can make moneythrough art. And you know, like,
the best thing way to do it istell my story about my journey,
I can educate some people, andhelp other people that are

(23:54):
following in that same journey.
Yeah, and you've really pickedup on such a crucial point in
terms of the additional impactsof the Torch program, because I
understand it took years ofadvocacy in order for government

(24:16):
policy to change in order toallow indigenous inmates in
Victoria to sell their artwork.Alex, were you part of that
advocacy? Was that happeningwhilst you were making the
documentary that you saw thischange where 100% of the money

(24:38):
goes back to the artists and Iunderstand it's held in a trust
until they're released? Yeah,absolutely.
I wasn't a part of that was thathappened literally around the
time that Robbie had just sold,he was one of the first to sell
his paintings whilst he wasincarcerated. And it was
literally happening just as Imet him, so you know, there were

(24:59):
forces at work far beyond me,and it's almost like it was
meant to be by the time I got toFulham the, the inmates
were obviously they're veryskeptical of different programs,
because a lot of them said like,you know that they weren't
expecting to see me come backthere. Because you know, so many
little things happen and littlespot fires happen and the flame
eventually goes out the fundinggets cut or, you know, it's too

(25:21):
hard to work in the prisons, youknow, nothing ever eventuates.
But it was literally, just asthis documentary was being
conceived that that governmentpolicy went through. So yeah, it
was some former sort of highesthigh end sort of government,
Victorian politicians. And asyou said, I think it was 40

(25:42):
years of advocacy from theVictorian community to push that
over the line. And since thishappened, as Christopher said,
the drop in reoffending in therecidivism rate has been
unbelievable. So it's amazingwhat something seemingly so
small, the change that can have,it's incredible. And so many of
the inmates said to me that whenthey out get of jail, you know, you

(26:04):
get like a week or two weeks ofaccommodation and half of a dole
check, and then you're back tonothing. So obviously, they're
going to reoffend, the screwtold me that the closest train
station was Bairnsdale station,and he said, there's a pub near
there, and it's full of vice and,you know, unfortunately, in that
regional town, and he said, alot of the indigenous inmates
don't make it past that area,you know, before they, you know,

(26:27):
a couple of weeks and they'reback. There was one of the
gentlemen Damian in the projectswho, when I went into film, he
literally left and come backwithin a couple of weeks, and
the screws couldn't believe it.They're like, Oh, you're back
again are you. So yeah, that wasliterally just happening it was
happening around the same time. So it was just sort of this

(26:48):
incredible groundswell. In talking,
in talking about like, therecividism rate and all that
I was in Port Phillip Prison aweek and a half ago as a
visitor, you know, I'm allowedback into the jails now, Paula,
as in I go in there as amentor, that's my job. Yeah,
I mean, this. I mean, this isimmense in itself, isn't it that

(27:11):
you now have that active role.
Yeah. And I was in just a weekand a half ago, talking to one
of the boys. And he had a courtcase show, I think it's next
week, he goes to court. And hewas scared, he didn't want to
get out of prison. He had to goto court and get a sentence and

(27:31):
he wanted time, he wanted toget sentenced, so he can stay
in jail longer. Because he hadnothing out there nowhere to go.
It was just too much stress forhim out there, easier for him to
live in prison. He wanted to staythat. It's pretty sad when you've
got people talking like
that. Yeah. Yeah, it'sabsolutely tragic. But you can

(27:54):
really say, can't you how theinstitutionalization of
vulnerability is inevitablygoing to lead to that type of
thinking. I think, as you said,Chris, in the documentary,
crime, or if you like, the cycleof crime, the kind of dependency

(28:18):
it creates, is a roundabout youcan't get off.
Yeah, that's right. You know, it'slike, when you're in prison,
you've got everything there,you've got food, you got your
bed, you got nothing to worryabout. You don't have to worry
about tomorrow, what you'regoing to do tomorrow to get a

(28:38):
feed, what you're going to do,go somewhere, it's all there
that don't help you into goingoutside, prepare you, you're not
prepared to go outside. Youknow, you get a dole cheque a
two week dole cheque which is 500 bucks, you get that when
you get released. And theperson's only got that one set

(29:02):
of clothes on they've got nowhereto live, that 500 bucks isn't
gonna go too far. You know, Iknow a lot of people that will
go and spend that on a motel forthe night. Have a little party
knowing full well, tomorrow,they have to go stealing to
support themselves. Yeah,

(29:22):
because it's a story ofdisempowerment. And part of that
story has been about thesuppression of identity. And of
course, that's what the Torchart program is addressing so
brilliantly, because would yousay by suppressing someone's

(29:45):
identity, like your experience,Christopher, you know, at the
age of 11, in an all white unit,for example, it's really
significant in terms ofsomeone's
disempowerment and sense ofvulnerability. Yeah,
you're taking away the person'swhole life, you know, yeah, how

(30:07):
you learn everything from yourparents and your grandparents,
uncles and aunties about whereyou're from what you do and
everything like that, when youtake someone young away from all
that, and try and assimilatethem into white society, you
become very confused and mixedup, you don't know where you
belong, or what you got to do.So a lot turned to alcohol or

(30:32):
drugs or suicide, you know, and,like, the lifestyle we live,
especially when you're, you goout there using drugs, and
everything like that, is like,you're gonna wake up every
morning, and there's one of 3 things that are gonna happen to
you that day, 1, you're gonna havea good day and make money, 2,

(30:52):
you end up in jail, or 3,you'll end up dead. They're 3
certain things that's gonnahappen to a person that lives
that lifestyle every day.
Yeah. And, of course, being ableto independently earn money, in
this case, through your artwork,and the fact you've been able to

(31:12):
acquire new skills, you'veprobably been able to develop
confidence, surely that allfeeds into self respect,
and being able to walk adifferent path.
My self worth is sky high nowI can walk with my head held high,

(31:33):
you know, it's nothing really,like brainstorming that what
done it. What done it for us,and for a lot of other people is
learning about their culture,their identity, their getting
their identity back there,getting their self-respect back,
you know, we had one, we had onegirl get out of prison, after

(31:55):
a few years, and she was able toput a deposit on a place for
herself, you know, we have a lotof a lot of them, realize they
can travel down a differentpathway. And like, they don't
have to go back to where theycome from. Because if they go
back to where they come from,they're gonna get the same
result.

(32:17):
Yeah, so I mean, it's reallybreakthrough stuff. And another
statistic, I read in my researchregarding women with Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander womenare 21 times more likely to be
in custody than non Indigenouswomen. So that example of the
woman you just refer to, reallyis a breakthrough. It's a

(32:41):
landmark, isn't it of her selfempowerment.
Yeah another good thing aboutVictoria is that they're
taking note of, of people withlived experience, they use it a
lot down here, you know, peoplethat have been through those
roads, getting hired to do thejobs where they can help people

(33:04):
more, because I when I go intoprisons or even when they come
out, there is nothing thatthey're going to go through that
I haven't been through, so tosit down and talk to me about
what's going on in their life,instead of like banging their
head against the wall createsnew ideas, new pathways for them

(33:27):
to walk down, you know, they seethat I can do it, that they can
do it, because there are a lotof the boys have grown up in
the prison system are used toseeing me inside, you know, and
now that I'm coming in there, itjust gives them hope, I can

(33:49):
achieve something as well. Yeah,
it's the significance of rolemodels, mentorship, development,
everything that we've seen wasabsent, particularly for you as
a child, and of course, childrenin that position. In fact,
another shocking statistic waschildren make up 7% of the

(34:11):
general youth population, but54% of those in youth detention
across Australia, areindigenous. And so it's so
critical, isn't it that at thevery least these kinds of
programs exist in terms ofdevelopment. And Alex, a quote

(34:33):
I've taken from you, that Ithought was really interesting
was when you said you found "thetoughest inmates were the most
able to be vulnerable." So it'snot just children. It was
interesting you were referringto the toughest inmates, being
able to be vulnerable and Iwondered if you could tell us

(34:57):
more about your thinking onthat.
Yeah, well, I think one of thescrews said to me, you know,
some of the younger guys go in,and they want to be hard in
front of the other inmates, andobviously, they're very
intimidated. So, you know, theyput on a bit of a show, and
just, you know, a lot of reallydamaged young people in there to

(35:17):
be honest. And you know, andjust like Chris said, it's a
survival mechanism to be toughand to be staunch, never ask
for anything, stand your ownground, not get stood over, you
know, trying to survive theprison politics. So, you know,
there were certain guys in therewho I could see was still on
that journey, and they werestill, you know, putting on, you
know, you could tell they'revery closed and didn't have the

(35:40):
confidence, I would say, it'sreally about confidence and self
belief, they didn't have that,and they were sort of, you know,
resorting back to that sort oftough guy, ultra masculine. You
know, don't speak to me, no onecome near me sort of vibe, but
it was people like Chris, whowere, had the courage to be
honest and to be vulnerable, andto not care if they shed a tear

(36:02):
when they spoke, or, you know,to tell the real story that
created that environment when wefilmed and without Chris, I can
guarantee you I went in to theprison once, once Chris had been
released, and it was a differentvibe in there. You know, it was
a lot more staunch, it was alot more what you would think,
and having Chris and our greatfriend, Troy Brabham, who

(36:24):
unfortunately passed away inthere, and a few of the other
boys who were, who really took astand and they said, look, let's
let's take this projectseriously, let's say how we're
feeling, you know, let's talkabout where we're at and break
that barrier. And it was justcrazy, like the amount of
respect in the unit. I mean,there was one moment where a
fella who was actually from theANT and he was a former AFL

(36:46):
football prospect, which is ourbig, Ozzy Rules Football
League. He started crying duringthe interview, and he instantly
stiffened up and formed a bit ofa clench with his fists, he
looked around the room to see ifanyone was reacting to him crying,
but then he said, You know what,fuck it, excuse my language. And
he, he looked back into thecamera, and he just kept
speaking. So it was almost like,we're all on that journey of

(37:09):
trying to tell the story andtrying to break through that
barrier. But without Chris andTroy being so honest, and
creating that environment, youknow, this project would have
never have happened. And theseguys are so tough, and they're
dealing with prisonpolitics, and they're dealing
with, you know, differentdifferent nationalities and

(37:30):
minorities in there anddifferent games and such. But,
you know, the, the mob insidethe unit when I was filming, it
was there was like, we all cametogether as a team to try and
tell the story as authenticallyas we could. So yeah, it was
truly incredible to say thatreally within that setting.
Yeah. And it's interesting thatwhen it gets to the art

(37:50):
exhibitions take place Confined 8, Confined 9, that
sense of brotherhood is referredto, again, connection, identity,
cultural connection, andidentity, and really creating
meaningful experiences. But Iwould like to pick up on

(38:11):
courage. I do think thisdocumentary is an immense
journey in courage with all ofthe participants. Firstly, I
wondered, Alex, if it's changed,perhaps what your interpretation
of courage is, now you've madethis particular documentary. And

(38:36):
I'm also really interested inTroy's journey and a quote he
made about how he needed to "lovemyself and be courageous enough."
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, there's this idea, asChris said, they're just a

(38:57):
statistic. You know, they're nogood. You know, they're just
ushered away from society, youknow, lock up, throw away the
key, or there's another prisonterm, you know, just another
bare bum in the shower. Youknow, they're just a faceless,
invisible statistic in there.And what I saw was just such
incredible courage in not justthe vulnerability, but the

(39:21):
honesty, and just a yearning toreally say, you know, I'm not,
this doesn't define me thisscreen that I'm wearing here.
This isn't who I am somethingmore than that. And it was
absolutely incredible. When Itell people who I've met about
this journey, they just can'tbelieve it, you know, to for
such incredible, highly, youknow, articulate and people with

(39:45):
such potential to be locked awayin the system like this and
prior to the Torch program,really given no opportunities to
upskill or to seek employment,or to better themselves, you
know, is just astonishing. So Ithink that Christopher himself
personifies courage in my eyes,you know, he's been so

(40:06):
inspiring. And he got out and hebroke through so many barriers.
I remember when we were doing aninterview for ABC and Chris had
not been out for long, maybeabout a couple of years. And
he didn't have use of a mobile phone.So I was meeting him at Flinders
Street, which is the mainstation here in the Melbourne
CBD. And we're going to ABC todo a talk. And I'm waiting there

(40:27):
for him. And, you know, just forhim to get there on time, the
amount of barriers he's crossed,I think he might have been still
on parole at that point. And I'mwaiting there for him. And I
knew he wouldn't let me downbecause he's always on time. And
he's I've known him for youknow, eight years now. He's
never let me down once. I'mwaiting there for Chris I hear
this big commotion in the trainstation. Ah, it's good to see

(40:47):
you! Everyone's like, Oh,what's going on here and Chris
is walking through. And there'san indigenous fella with a bag
over his shoulder and a singletand prison shorts, the green
shorts, hugging Chris, like, hecan't believe him. You know,
he's just got he can't believehe's seeing Chris. He's like,
Oh, you're doing so well andeverything. And they both walk
over to me. And I thought, Okay,looks like both of us are going
into the biggest interview of our lives. But um, you know, just

(41:10):
seeing the hope that Chris gavethis gentleman who had
literally been released that dayfrom Fulham the same prison. Yeah,
that was just an example. But,you know, seeing Yeah, I guess,
the courage as well. That'sbeen really inspiring because,
you know, in Australia, we havea massive intergenerational
racism problem. And, you know,people say, oh, you know, the

(41:32):
indigenous people don't want towork or, you know, they keep
complaining, you know, we're naive to our history here so
there's just a misconceptionabout what they're going through
the effect of intergenerationaltrauma, the effect that the
Stolen Generations and thegenerations preceding it had.
So I think this documentary justhighlighted that absolute

(41:53):
strength and resilience. Andthat's, that's probably what I'm
most proud of. Yeah. So
you remember, like, when I wasfive years old, that we were
classified as flora and faunastill, you know, that's how the
government had us marked down inthe constitution, we were flora
and fauna, you know. We were looked at the same as the animals, we

(42:20):
weren't made a citizen of thecountry until 1967.
Yeah, absolutely shocking, isn'tit that concept.
Like, things that happen in thepast and we have a lot of
people say to us that, you know,that happened ages ago, get over
it, you know, but how can youget over something that still in

(42:43):
my lifetime? Yeah, you learn asyou're growing up, you learn
things from your parents andyour grandparents and
everything. And you take allthat on. So what they
experienced and what they wentthrough, back in the 50s, 40s,
and 60s, and that, well, thatcarries on to me, and it affects
us as as well, as we're growningup. We take all that on board as

(43:08):
well. It happens in everyfamily, but not bad things. You
still learn things from yourparents and your grandparents.
Yeah, exactly. It's it's cultural frames of reference
value systems is an anchor inlife, isn't it? And this really
comes through in Troy's story.And he struggled with his

(43:30):
cultural identity because he wasmixed heritage. He talked about
his Aboriginal soul, but he alsotalked about not feeling like he
could really fit in anywhere.And I wondered how you both
viewed Troy's particularstruggles because that conflict,

(43:53):
if you like, that deprivation offeeling confident in his own
cultural identity had translatedinto self loathing.
Yeah, I think you know, Troyit's an amazing story that you
know, he was one person that waslike, in a society that then

(44:16):
belonged to him he didn't feelcomfortable with growing up in
the white society and all thatyou know, but he made it up
there he was like went all overthe world and doing his job for
Reuters and that. Yeah, the photography role. And then come

(44:37):
down and like Like Alex said before, just another bare bum in
the shower. You know, he was welleducated he had it made
compared to what like I grew upwith and to see him come
crashing down. And it's the samestory all over you know, no
identity, not fitting in, don'tknow where he's from, not belonging

(44:59):
I mean, it really affects us.And like, and until like he was
on that journey at that time oflearning about all that and
just so sad that he didn't get to finish that journey.
Yeah, it is particularly tragic,but powerful journey because as

(45:25):
you say, Christopher, he wasan intelligent and experienced
man, but there was the tragedyof not feeling close enough to
his ancestral grounds, as he putit. And that's, of course, what
much of his artwork reflected,painting tribal rings, for

(45:51):
example, it was the importanceof, of having a connection.
Doing this program, is actually the only time in my
life that I had anything to dowith my own culture, that I felt
a part of something. And I, andI realized and that for me, I

(46:12):
needed to grab that and keepgoing on that journey. And it
did change my life around as wecan see. Yeah,
yeah. And it was significantwhen Troy describes growing up

(46:34):
in a world where he had no ideaof what acceptable behavior was,
he felt like he was in anenvironment, if you like, that
was socially numb. So of course,artistic expression must have
been transformative for him.

(46:58):
Yeah. You know, one of myproudest moments was, you know,
someone asked me, What do I do?You know, what have I done in
the past, you know, like, forwork, or this and that. And in
my whole life, I used to alwayssay, I'm a crook, you know. And
I felt uncomfortable saying thatI didn't know what to say, and

(47:20):
my daughter was there. Then shesaid that you're an artist Dad.
And yeah, I'm an artist. AndI've never ever thought of
myself any other way before it'stipped, as being in
trouble and being imprisoned andall that, yeah, changed my life.
Yeah,
it's completely transformative.And I'll just added in here,

(47:44):
because it was such a powerfulline from Troy just before
moving on. And Troy spokedirectly to the camera Alex and
said, "how everyone needs to seehow they can have chances that
things can get better." That's
right. "And like a phoenix, likea phoenix from the ashes, you

(48:06):
can rise and make a lot calmer,the waters that you traverse."
Yeah. And that was the lastthing to the camera. Because I
said to him, you've got one lastquote, and he thought about it.
And that's what he said, "Like aphoenix from the ashes, you can
rise and make a lot calmer, thewaters you traverse." And then we
both looked at each other andthen he put out his hand and we

(48:27):
shook each other's hand and huggedfor about five seconds. And
tragically, that was the lasttime he ever spoke to me. And
the camera actually he sent me aFacebook message after after
that saying, Alex, the time youknow, we've spent working
together has been incredible.And you'll always be a brother
to me. And tragically, I was Iwas out it was a Saturday night

(48:49):
it was about exactly 14 dayslater, I got a message saying he
had died. And it just, it toreit tore my heart apart. To see
someone so talented, soincredibly articulate. He had
worked, he'd got an Aboriginaltraineeship with the ABC and he
had worked as a cameraman, andhe traveled around the world.

(49:10):
But he you know, he just alwayssaid he always had that false
sense of identity, didn't knowwho he was. And then that
intergenerational trauma, anddrugs and alcohol and he just
lost that faith in himself andthat arts program, I honestly
thought I was just so shocked,because I thought that he was
going to turn his life around,but it just shows you, you know,

(49:32):
and it's just a reminder of justhow absolutely the odds are
stacked against you and how hardit is to break from from that
cycle and then to come out insociety and, you know, sustain
that life because someone asbeautiful and as talented as
him didn't make it. So yeah, itwas just a harsh reminder.

(49:54):
Yeah, the struggle is reallydeep and just with everything
you were saying then I literallydo get the chills. And it was
just such a powerful and andtragic point in the documentary,
but what a beautiful statementto have captured from him. And

(50:15):
the importance of what you'vedone making this film is is all
about representation and givingvoice. But also Christopher,
you're from a family, aren't youthat really can demonstrate

(50:35):
breaking down barriers againstall the odds possible. And it
was talking to Alex earlier thatI understand in your family,
you're related to a boxingchampion, and also a significant
musician, songwriter. And Iwondered if you could tell us
more about that.

(50:57):
Yeah, my grandfather, Lionel Rose's
grandfather, the samegrandfather. And like, to me,
he's like, he's thefirst one that break them
barriers that can show peopleand, you know, you can travel
again a different way. Mycousin, Archie, Archie Roach,

(51:19):
his mum's an Austin as well. Andhe what we're doing
with the Torch, he done the samething with music. You know, he
was telling me his journey andhis stories for music and that
healed him. And hopefully, told the story to a lot of other

(51:39):
people educated a lot of peoplethat didn't know about what
happened to us. And also that itcan travel down that path and teach
someone that's doing the samejourney you know, his stories
were telling us in the music.

(52:01):
And I'll just add that when Archie Roach passed away
that was a serious moment inAustralian music history,
really, the most influential andprominent artists in Australia
or all gave tribute to him. Andhe had a state funeral much like
the Great Uncle Jack Charles,Chris's friend, and I will say a
mate of mine as well. But yeah,they're incredible, indigenous,

(52:25):
you know, not just indigenous,but Australian icons really.
Who, who intersected that crosssection, because as we've spoken
about, there's that absoluteracism here. And it's, you know,
the younger generations aregetting more educated in our
true history, our true colonialhistory of Australia, but it was
people like Lionel Rose, the firstever Australian boxing champion,

(52:47):
you know, he met Elvis, he was anabsolute superstar and gentleman
and Archie Roach, one of thebest, and most legendary
songwriters Australia's everhad, it's those guys who, you
know, their legacy is going tolive on. Absolutely, and they,
you know, the, the contributionsthey've made to not just

(53:12):
Australian sport or music isgoing to be taught, you know,
hopefully to our nextgenerations through the
education system. And now Chrisis doing work literally, as he's
mentioned, he, he was givenaccess, which is the first time
it's ever happened for someonewho, you know, has been
incarcerated for 30 years plus,to go back into the prison

(53:32):
system and educate, you know,like, for an ex prisoner to go
back in, that's obviously veryhigh risk and isn't usually
done. But, you know, this workthat's been done is just so
inspiring. And, you know, youtell people about it, and their
eyes light up, you know, it'slike, this really needs to be
where we're at with the country,you know, basically just

(53:54):
champion now history andacknowledging this epidemic of
incarceration, and really tryingto make a significant
difference, because if we don'tdo it now, it's never gonna
happen.
Yeah, yeah. And this is astruggle, isn't it that's gone
on for decades and decades anddecades. And you know, in the
context of human rights andhuman rights abuse, it's

(54:18):
astonishing, isn't it that thisstill hasn't been successfully
addressed, although the Torchart program is clearly not just
transformative, but quiterevolutionary. Christopher
is clearly a pioneer in his ownright. And he's he has a family

(54:39):
of pioneers and it isastonishing when you look at
the scale of barriers, or allthe entrapment that the
structural entrapment that canbe created around people,
especially through racialdiscrimination is so huge that
these breakthrough stories arereally, really unique, and of

(55:02):
course, Uncle Jack Charles isanother example isn't he of
a breakthrough story. And Iunderstand Christopher, he was
incarcerated as a child too.
Yeah, he was taken as very youngchild, and started off in homes

(55:22):
as a kid, never been in troublebefore. It's just the government
didn't like the way Aboriginalpeople lived back then. So they
tried to take the kids all thetime and assimilate them back
into white society. And thatmade him very confused, very
lost in the world that he wasgrowing up in. He started in

(55:45):
the boys home, started doingillegal stuff, and eventually
graduated to prison.
And he was, he was also I'll justadd he was also tragically
sexually abused by the Christianorganization in Box Hill, in
Melbourne's east where he waswhere he was put for many years.

(56:06):
You know the people were supposed to look after him and all that.
Yeah, a betrayal of trust.Yeah.
And he went on to become, I literally tell people that I knew
him and they couldn't believe it.You know, I've got I've got
friends who are you know, from,like, you know, carpenters to
lawyers, and they couldn'tbelieve that, me and Chris, were

(56:28):
catching up with Uncle JackCharles, at Nova cinema, which
is a great cinema here inMelbourne. And he really, he
didn't stop fighting. And, youknow, he was advocating until
his very last days. And hispeople are saying, you know,
there needs to be a street namedafter him. Because, you know,
he's a truly special person. Hewas in the film Cook, which came

(56:49):
out about Peter Pan back I thinkit might have been in the 70s
and he had been in some amazingfilms and he performed for the
Melbourne Theatre Company and hewas just this incredibly
talented person who could reciteShakespeare you know, he was
just so articulate and so aheadof his time and you know, even
he'd served time in Pentridge,a very notorious famous

(57:11):
prison where Chopper Read washeld. And, you know, it's just
crazy to think in, in becominginvolved in the film was crazy
itself because it initiallypremiered and Uncle Jack Charles
wasn't in it. And we invitedhim to the premiere of the
original cut and he saw Chris, andhe couldn't believe it, because
I told him that Chris was one of themain characters. And he was just

(57:34):
in tears from seeing the filmbecause I was sitting next to
him. And afterwards, he shookChris's hand and gave him a hug,
and we'll get a photo together.And then we heard that Netflix,
were interested in the film, andwe weren't going to give up you
know, we'd made this film withno money. We'd all just started
we'd just become like abrotherhood, really just
supporting each other. To makethe film and Uncle Jack became the

(57:55):
narrator. We called him, Robbie BigRobbie called him up and asked
him and he said, he said, I'mflattered. He said, I'm tickled
pink, I'm tickled pink, and he didthe narration for the film, and he
absolutely loved it. Because I'dbump into people they wwere like Uncle
Jack just told me that he's justdone the narration. And I
remember telling him that it wasgoing to be on Netflix, and he
was absolutely stoked. So yeah,it was an honor for us. And, you

(58:18):
know, he had told me a fewstories as well about the Pentridge
days about him and Chris doingreally hard time together.
Pentridge is a prison it's beenshut down now. And they do
tours now there. It's sort ofknown as one of Australia's most
notorious prisons. And to thinkthat a beautiful soul like him
was there who didn't have amalicious bone in his body. It
really shows you the effect ofthis institutional, miss

(58:43):
failings and also the the effectof this trauma. He
had a big voice a powerfulvoice. Yeah, but yeah, he was
only a tiny man.
Yeah, with a massive heart.Yeah.
And and I'll just add here forlisteners. Because I, you know,
I'm lucky enough to haveinternational listeners who may
not be familiar with the storyof Uncle Jack Charles, but he

(59:08):
was and is a national treasureand Aboriginal elder activist
and he became an award winningactor, and he's the narrator in
this documentary. And, again,another example.
Sorry, he also had astate
funeral. Yes. Yeah. And

(59:31):
it was it basically gotannounced and it was just near
the Melbourne Art Center, and Iwas honored. I went with the
funeral with Chris and hisfamily, which was a massive
honor. And it was one of themost beautiful ceremonies you've
ever seen. And it stopped thecity that day. Everybody I spoke
to knew that Uncle JackCharles's state funeral was on

(59:52):
that day. It was an incredibleday for Melbourne and for
Australia.
One of the things I wrote withJack you know, when he passed
away was, I remember, we weresitting in a cell together back in
96, in Bendigo prison, and whowould have thought that when you
passed away that they were gonnagive you a state funeral. And

(01:00:12):
like, we both would have beenlaughing. Yeah. That would have
been strange he would never have thought that. But it shows
you how powerful him tellinghis story was, you know.
Yeah, it is astonishing thesestories of people that rise

(01:00:34):
against all the odds, andimportantly, without bitterness
that they are wanting to developcompassion in the world, and
they want to see social justiceand fairness in the world. In
this conversation already, somany people that we've been able

(01:00:58):
to talk about, includingyourselves, have really managed
to rise against so many odds.Interestingly, I also saw that
there was backlash when afterQueen Elizabeth died,

(01:01:22):
apparently King Charles, KingCharles the third automatically
replaced the queen onAustralia's $5 bank notes,
shouldn't that have been UncleJack Charles? That's what
people
were saying yeah. Yeah I
thought that too a lot of peoplethought that, that he should

(01:01:42):
be on it in some way.
Yeah, that that actuallywent viral. There was a petition
going on, and a bit of uproar.And there was a sort of right
wing sports commentator who cameout and said, Oh, he's an ex
junkie and he's this and that,and there was just so much
backlash, because the right wingmedia, you know, in Australia,
unfortunately, the Murdochpress, they run 80% of the

(01:02:06):
tabloids and, and the networks.And there was just such a
groundswell of uproar, from, youknow, the community, black and
white, because he was a realhero. He's a hero. And he's,
he's, he's, he's our funeral,sort of honorary form is
literally stuck behind me as I'mspeaking. So it gives me chills.

(01:02:29):
But um, yeah, he, we weresaying, absolutely, he should
have replaced that of the Royalpresense on the currency
absolutely. And one thing thathe advocated for, until the very
end was, Uncle Jack was saying,from a young age, we need to
incorporate indigenous historyinto the education system.

(01:02:49):
Because in Australia, we, youdon't get taught anything, you
know, I went to I was privilegedto go to a good school, or a
prestigious school here inMelbourne. And I was taught more
than most, but still, I wastaught nothing, I learnt
everything on my own accordafter school. And Uncle Jack
Charles, he wasn't saying, youknow, radicalize the whole
education system, he was saying,let's just incorporate a little

(01:03:12):
bit of history, some words, somestories from a young age to
break that racism and, and toeducate, you know, in a really
passive, sort of humble way.And, you know, it was just a
he's an absolute legend.
We had a party at Alex's acouple of weeks ago, and my

(01:03:33):
missus was there with us andshe's a white Australian. And
she was talking with one ofAlex's friends there that works
with disadvantaged kids. And she was telling her about the
missions and all that. And shehad no idea that we had missions

(01:03:55):
didn't know what a mission was.And like, you know, it comes
back to the education system.You know, a lot of people I
believe myself anyway, and Ihope I'm right most of the time
is that they're not reallyracist. They're ignorant. They
don't know. So you have toeducate them. Let them know

(01:04:18):
those things, you know, and,like, I remember, growing up as
a kid was just Aboriginal peoplethrew boomerangs and spears,
and hunted kangaroos. That wasit. That was all we knew. Yeah,
yeah, no, it's the significanceof education and indigenous

(01:04:40):
history should have equalinclusion. It's not a case of a
tokenistic nod. It should beabout equal inclusion. And there
is clear evidence on how thatcombats racism, its
transformative education, andall of this including the Torch

(01:05:01):
art program, this space ofeducation, development and
learning is so much to do withrespect and identity. I, I've
seen, sorry have I interrupted. SoI
was just going to say, and asChris said, that's where a lot
of the racism here in Australiacomes from. You know, it is it

(01:05:23):
is just actually ignorancebecause people don't understand
our history, and they don'tunderstand the effect of the
colonization from 1788, whenCaptain Cook was in Botany Bay
and colonized Australia, fromthe south down, they don't
understand the effect thatthat's had on an indigenous
person, that might walk past thetrain station or a tram stop.

(01:05:44):
You know, they think that thatwas so long ago that it's
irrelevant. They don'tunderstand how that is, you
know, completely disempowered,and it is probably our First
Nations people their identity.So it's, as Chris said, I don't
believe a lot of Australians arebad people. They're just naive
and ignorant. And unfortunately,we need to change that and it

(01:06:05):
starts from the youngergenerations. Absolutely.
Yeah. And from what I've read,this perhaps explains some of
the conflicts in struggle. And Iknow in 2023 a First Nations
advisory board was rejected. Butit was interesting to read that

(01:06:26):
actually, indigenous leaderswere also divided over the vote
that struggle, if you like,between not wanting a symbolic
gesture, but to take your ownplace in self determination.
Yeah,
absolutely. That was the we hada referendum here for Voice to
Parliament, which was theIndigenous Advisory Board, and

(01:06:49):
to acknowledge that indigenouspeople existed, because as Chris
said, flora and fauna, youknow, we still don't acknowledge
in our constitution of whatAustralia is. And within our
flag, we've got the Union Jack,and so British, you know,
heritage, we don't acknowledgethe first people of this

(01:07:10):
country, and the voice was putin place, however, it was very
poorly executed. And the rightwing media, which I mentioned has
a really strong threshold on thetabloids, and the free to air TV
stations was heavily against it.And it was just, it was just
actually very divisive, it wasactually quite horrible. And a

(01:07:30):
lot of indigenous elders andspokespeople were against voting
yes, because they're saying,Well, you know, it's just
another, you know, tokenisticgesture. And, unfortunately, did
more harm than good. And at atime, where, you know, as a
young, proud, young Australian,or someone who's, you know, very
much trying to be a proud youngAustralian, that that really did

(01:07:53):
fail. And if anything, it madethe divisions worse. Yeah, it
was essentially a politicaltrain wreck really. So, left to
pick up the pieces.
Yeah. Because, of course, thisall relates, doesn't it to the
purpose of your film, thepurpose of the Torch art

(01:08:16):
program, you know, to be able tobe empowered to influence and
make change.
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know,it's a long journey ahead. And,
as Chris said, when he goes towork in the prisons, you know,
he sees his, his relatives, youknow, cousins and nieces and

(01:08:40):
everything. And, you know,unfortunately,
Australia wide issue ofindigenous incarceration isn't
getting any better. There's beena lot of press about the
Northern Territory in placeslike Alice Springs, where
there's a lot of crime going onand there's kids just, you know,
stealing cars and roamingstreets late at night, and
they're going inside prison, youknow, juvenile detention, but

(01:09:03):
they're not getting upskilled whenthey're there. There's no, you
know, their traumas are not being addressed. You know,
there's no program like theTorch there. They're just coming
straight back out into the sameenvironment, like Chris said,
and obviously, they're going toreoffend again. So, you know,
the issue of indigenousincarceration in Australia wide

(01:09:23):
as much as we would like tothink we're progressing. You
know, it's really a massivefight we have in front of us.
Well, when when they had thedeaths in custody commission in
1989 I was in prison still thenand statewide Victoria the
average population forindigenous prisoners was 114.

(01:09:46):
That's men and women. Now we getthat in one prison.
Wow. Wow. I did read a statisticactually, that said it was a
report that identified,indigenous incarceration had
increased by 45%, between 2008and 2018. And that only seems

(01:10:10):
to have continued to get worse.
Yeah, that's pretty horrificthat. When you look back at the
numbers, you know, and you thinkthere'd be a lot more like,
because we teach culture, andthat with our program the
Torch, you seem a lotmore programms, being entered

(01:10:32):
into the prison system wherethey include their culture as
well, not just like, you got introuble for this reason, or for
that reason. They need theiridentity, they need to feel like
they belong, that they cancreate something and make
something of themselves withoutcommitting crime without using
drugs or alcohol, you know, andthey need to include more

(01:10:55):
culturally based programs forthem inside, and not just inside,
over here, they, you can't gethelp from those organizations
that are supposed to help youuntil you've gotten in trouble.
You have to get in trouble toget help. Yeah. Not a good

(01:11:16):
thing. Well, for us the Torch we're the only program
that I know of that works withpeople inside prison, and
continues to work with them whenthey get out as well. Yeah,
yeah. I mean, the evidence iscrystal clear, which is why this
film is so significant, and hassuch an important educative
role. I understand it, tours, ifyou like, prisons or educational

(01:11:43):
spaces. So hopefully, there isgenuine impact and change
because of this film. This issuch an important film, I'm
conscious that I've run overtime. But it's a really special
opportunity to share as much ofthis work and the history

(01:12:04):
behind it as possible. Iwondered if I could just add a
couple more questions on justbefore we close.
Can I just say something.Yeah ofcourse. Over the last 2 years, Torch
has sold over a million dollarsworth of art and that goes back to
the artists. Wow. And making adifference. If your listeners

(01:12:26):
would like to help, they can bylooking up the Torch website and
buying a painting. You're notjust buying a painting, you're
buying someone's story, andhelping them to change their
life around.
Yeah, and I'm gonna make surethe link for the Torch art
program, as well as thedocumentary are on the episode

(01:12:47):
page is just a fantastic pieceof information to share the
success of that program,Christopher, I'm wondering, with
your vast experience, andinsight, and post the
opportunity of being part of theart program. What do you think

(01:13:14):
you would say, to your 11 yearold self today?
I would say to myself that goback home to where you come from
and learn more about yourpeople, you learn more about
your culture, that's where Ibelonged then as a kid, you
know, I didn't like to grow upin society, where I knew

(01:13:37):
nothing. If I would have grownup back home in my country, I
think things would have been alot different. I would have
had an identity of place ofbelonging.
Yeah. And Christopher, with thatin mind, what are your hopes for
your daughter, or your nephews?

(01:14:00):
With my daughter, especiallynow, you know, I can trace my
family history back to the startof the 1800s. We have books. And
we have a book about my greatgrandfather, my great, great
grandfather, and my great,great, great grandfather. So she

(01:14:20):
has a place where she has ahistory. I know to learn more
about her family where she comefrom, so she can move on in. And
she also has got to learn allabout the past atrocities as
well, like the Australian peopledon't want to hear that about

(01:14:42):
past atrocities that happenedagainst Aboriginal people of
this country. You know, but sheneeds to learn that to grow as a
person to see what happened. SoHistory doesn't repeat itself.
Yeah, yeah. It's the importance of history to
understand who we are, and wherewe've come from. And exactly as

(01:15:05):
you say, so the worst of historydoesn't repeat itself. I'm
wondering if this is a goodpoint to close on the series
question and how you may bothlike to respond Can save us?
Art can save us becauseinstead of like, you got a

(01:15:27):
therapist, and you got atherapist, you know, or a social
worker, someone who's supposedto help you, well, theyre a nine
to five job. So if you have aproblem, you go and do, tell
your story, tell your probleminto your artwork, put it in a
painting, and that doesn't justhelp yourself, it's like going

(01:15:48):
to talk to a therapist, you'regetting it out there. And it
doesn't just help you along theway it helps other people. It
teaches other people, educatesthem, and also, someone going
through the same journey canlearn from your story. So yeah,
I've come to do that.

(01:16:11):
Yeah. And Alex, how would yourespond to the question, Can art
save us?
Art can save usus, because I'veseen it, save people from the
most impossible situations. Andfor them to realize and optimize
their potential. And as anobserver, as a friend, and as a
brother I've watched ithappen, and art can definitely

(01:16:33):
save us. It's therapeutic. Itbreaks barriers. And, you know,
it can, it can heal in ways thatnothing else can.
Yeah. Thank you. And before weclose, is there anything either
of you would like to add that weeither haven't touched upon or

(01:16:54):
you'd like to reinforce orshare? Is there anything else
you'd like to add?
I just like to add that, for alot of Aboriginal people that
are locked up that we're not badpeople, we had difficult
circumstances to grow up with,you know, and, like, if you can
help someone by giving them achance, or to go and buy a piece

(01:17:17):
of artwork from the Torch thatgoes to show a long way, which
shows us that if other peoplecare about us, what happens to
us well, I should care aboutmyself. So it gives me hope it
gives me confidence to moveforward.
Yeah, absolutely. Alex, is thereanything you'd like to add or

(01:17:44):
sadly, it may be time to close.
Just what Christopher said,There's pure truth in those
lines. So I have nothing else toadd apart from what Chris said,
Okay. Well, then it's time forme to say such a huge thank you
to you both for making the timeit's been such an an honor and a

(01:18:06):
privilege to have your time, thegenerosity of your time and the
courage of your voices. Thesignificance of your work is
outstanding. And I genuinelycan't thank you enough for
joining me today.
Thank you.
Thank you too Paula. It gives megreat confidence and a belief in

(01:18:30):
myself that if someone inanother country on the other
side of the world cares aboutwhat happens to me and my
people, I'm very appreciative ofthat. Thank you very much.
It's, it's the least I can do.And it's my pleasure and and
honor. It's been an absolute joybeing able to speak to you both

(01:18:55):
today. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Bye