The Art of PR - Democratised & Unleashed. - Can Art Save Us?

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to Can artsave us? The podcast exploring
how the arts can strengthen andeven transform our mental
societal and democratic health,I talk with diverse award
winning artists about how thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity and why we need thesequalities to confront today's
global epidemics of mentalillness, loneliness,

(00:23):
polarisation of our communitiesand even worldwide conflict, be
part of this national andinternational conversation. Join
us to discover how the arts canreally help you. Today, I'm
joined by four artists who notonly have creative and executive

(00:44):
experience working with majorclients in PR, but they are also
exhibiting in The Art of PR.Today, public relations is
powered by digital storytelling,inclusivity, immersive
experiences, data and hybridstrategies, but it's also shaped
by distinct and diverse artistswho happen to be PR creatives,

(01:06):
and that's exactly what thisexhibition uncovers and
celebrates. For the first time,The Art of PR liberates these
artists from the client brief.Now in its second year, this
dedicated exhibition showcasesPR professionals as artists
telling their own creativestories. The Coningsby Gallery
in London has hosted botheditions, and this year, you can

(01:29):
also explore the onlineexhibition until the 15th of
October, thanks to Occhi Arts andEntertainment, you'll find the
link on this episode page.Joining us today are Ade Lee,
founder of The Art of PR, Ade,also specialises in wet plate
photography, creating uniquecontemporary portraits and

(01:49):
images by returning to Victoriantechniques of the 1850s. I would
even say soul portraits. FolaOdumosu is a sculptor who hand
crafts abstract forms, workingintuitively, she develops a
dialogue with her materials,building imagined architecture
that can both rise from thecanvas or stand as three

(02:12):
dimensional works. Simon Mooreis a fine artist, Creative
Director, designer, illustratorand animator. His work has been
shown in the BP Portrait Awardat London's National Portrait
Gallery, and he's equally athome, scaling up to film
billboards or street art. NadiaPadayachy is a portrait artist whose

(02:33):
work captures raw, emotionaldepth, scenes of parenting,
love, resilience and connectionrun through her paintings with
unflinching honesty. Nadia wasalso a quarter finalist on Sky
Arts Portrait Artist of the Yearin 2024 and her work also
includes a lifelong passion forcinema. So thank you very much

(02:55):
everybody for joining me andtaking time out of very, very
busy schedules. It's very muchappreciated and welcome to
Can Art Save Us? Thank you. Ade,I was thinking the obvious place
to start, of course, for thelisteners, is if you could share
why you launched The Art of PRin 2024 and what it was you were

(03:16):
responding to.
Well, thanks so much, Paula,there are so many people who
make art, and some amazingartists sort of hiding in plain
sight amongst us. And I mean,I've been in PR as a full time
professional for 30 years, but Ispend pretty much every spare
minute and a lot of my sparemoney pursuing my artistic and
the photography projects. I justkind of looked around and I

(03:39):
thought, there must be otherpeople like me within this
industry, which I love thisindustry, but we're always
making things on other people'sbehalf and telling other
people's stories. And I thoughtI wonder if there are other
people like me who are full timeprofessionals, but who go home
and instead of perhaps switchingon the TV, they paint or they
sculpt or they spray or takephotographs. And wouldn't it be

(04:02):
cool if I could find thosepeople, bring them together and
put on a show and have ashowcase and sort of reward
these people. I genuinely lovethese people. You know, they're
really dedicated, and theydeserve all the support that
they can be given. But therewas, there was nothing out.
There was no platform, no easyway to exhibit. There was no
centralised, sort of hub forindividual creativity within my

(04:28):
industry, and I suspect withinmany industries, and I kind of
figure, you know, a lot ofworkplaces and a lot of
industries that they kind ofhave a responsibility for
people's soul as well as fortheir wallet, and there was
nothing there. So and I alsoknew a couple of people who I'd
worked with over the years whohad managed to escape the trade,

(04:50):
escape full time work, and madethe brave leap to become full
time artists. So I thoughtperhaps we could get together
some of the dedicated individualcreators who are working full
time, but making some amazingart, really, really talented
artists, but who haven't yetbroken through as professional
artists, combine them, put themtogether with some professional

(05:11):
artists who had previous linksto PR and put on a show and have
a one week central Londonexhibition that would support
art in the industry, so peoplecould have something to aim at
if they wanted to get into artor return to art after a break,

(05:31):
to have an exhibition wherepeople who are creating can
actually break through and showtheir stuff in a proper gallery,
in a one week exhibition, andalso show the outside world that
this industry has somebrilliantly talented individual
creators in all sorts of mediato and to and to put on a show

(05:55):
that, you know, perhaps become areturning thing. And so, yeah,
and it went, it went so well,sort of, I looked around. It all
started with one speculativepost on social and it kind of
snowballed and word got round,and the artists came forth and
the first show. Last year we had12 amazing artists and a week
long exhibition. And this year,we grew to 19 artists, three

(06:19):
sponsors, as you mentioned, aweek long exhibition and a month
long virtual gallery as well.So, yeah, it's been an absolute
joy to see it come to life, andpeople have really responded to
it.
Yeah, it's a rapid expansion, infact, and certainly in the first
year, you know, I was luckyenough to be at the opening, and

(06:39):
you could hardly move. So it wasa really positive opening.
It was, I mean, there used to bea lot of parties in PR back in
the 90s, but perhaps not so manythese days. Maybe everyone was
just coming for that. I don'tknow. But I don't know, the
response from the artists, thevisitors and the media has been

(06:59):
really, really positive, notjust in terms of the quality of
the art, but in terms of thesort of the mission of the
project, in terms of supportingarts and supporting artists.
I'm really conscious thatthere's an interesting dynamic
here in The Art of PR, because,of course, you're all highly
skilled PR creatives andprofessionals, so you can

(07:21):
overcome communication barriersand you can create visibility
for clients, but there's nomagic wand for barriers you may
face as artists. And of course,age was just explaining that was
a huge motivation for launchingThe Art of PR. I'm just
wondering if each of you wouldhighlight any particular

(07:43):
barriers that you've had toovercome. You know, this may be
the economics of art, it may becompeting time. It could be
culture and heritage. So forexample, Nadia, your portrait,
Sleeping With Babies, whichobviously captivated the Sky
Arts judges, I thought was areally good example of a
barrier, actually, time andexhaustion, or the role of

(08:06):
parenthood. Is that afair example?
Yeah, absolutely. And alsotrying to paint while the kids
aren't there. But I would alsosay it was my own feelings about
trying to put myself out there.I guess you feel scared, or you
think, are people gonna likethis work? It means a lot to me,
but what if other people don'tlike it? And then for me, I was

(08:31):
made redundant. And thenthought, okay, you know what?
Now I can use this time to workon my passions. And then I saw
an opening with Tortrait Artistsof the Year. Thought, why not?
I've got nothing else to lose. Inever studied art university or
took any courses, just did alevels, really. So it's quite
out of practice. And it justfelt like the timing was right,

(08:53):
and everything fell into place,and platforms like The Art of
PR just snowballed everythingin a really positive way. So
it's been an incredibleexperience, but it's thanks to,
things like initiativeslike The Art of PR and Sky Arts
Portrait Artists, to openthat up to amateurs and giving

(09:14):
us that opportunity, and alsothe network that you gain from
it as well. I became really goodfriends with the artists on the
show, and we all follow eachother, and the same for the
artists for The Art of PR, but Ifeel like we're a little family.
We're championing each other,supporting each other in other

(09:34):
exhibitions that they might beexhibiting at, and it just feels
like a great family to beconnected to.
Yeah, it really highlights notonly the importance of having a
space and a platform, but it'sthe importance of connection.
And actually, Nadia, you usedthe word, you know, being being
fearful, or it was scary, youknow, in certain decisions. And

(09:55):
I noticed a quote you made atthe time of Sleeping with
Babies, "Sometimes ittakes a lot of courage just to
get out of bed when you'reexhausted and running on no
sleep." And I'm really interestedin courage, in the role of art,
I think it's probably vastlyunderestimated. I don't mean
trumpet blowing, life savingcourage, but certainly courage,

(10:18):
where, as you just highlighted,you need to be brave sometimes
to make the decision, to makethe investment, to make the
commitment. I'm wondering whereyou or everyone else maybe draws
their courage
from. Yeah, I think now that Ihave two little ones, I love
that they were the first ones tocall me an artist. I never
considered myself to be anartist. I'd say I was a marketer

(10:40):
for a PR agency, and then,because they actually called me
an artist, I felt like, well,no, I have to live up to that
and show them that. You know, Ido enjoy this. It's a passion of
mine. And I, yeah, just want tokeep on living up to their
expectations, I guess.
Yeah. And fola Simon, would yousay you've had to find courage,

(11:04):
even to commit or develop toyour art?
Yeah, definitely. I think it's,I think the courage element,
it's kind of a bit of selfbelief, ultimately, because
certainly for me, you know, Ihad artistic tendencies, and
certainly, you know, was makingart through my school, college

(11:26):
age, but for, you know, the next15-20, years, I just didn't
really give it time. And I thinkjust the idea that you're
trusting your instinct, yourintuition, you you know,
experimenting and, you know,trusting that it might not make

(11:46):
any sense to anyone else, but itsort of makes sense to you. And
I think the courage part is oneto keep going to be committed to
your artistic practice, but thenalso when it comes to showing
that to the world, that'sreally, you know, that's really
hard. It's a very vulnerablespace to put yourself, and that
does require a lot of courage,to be able to show parts of

(12:09):
yourself that people may nothave seen before, and to kind of
stand boldly in that. And it'skind of an everyday practice,
really, yeah, that courage totake, you know, to give, to
invest your time in this, toinvest your money in this, to
really trust, you know, takeyour your passion, seriously.
Yeah, absolutely. And I justthink it's so important to

(12:30):
actually research this quality,because the arts can be too easily
dismissed as a fluffy, low value,certainly reflected in
disproportionate cuts that weremade, whether it was funding or
education, because actually,there are real skills, not only
in the art practice, but yourown thinking skills, your own

(12:53):
mental health skills, actuallyto make these commitments.
Simon, would you say yourecognise any of that
vulnerability? It's interesting,of course, because you have this
hugely outstanding career. Youknow, it must be very easy for
people to presume success isvery obtainable, almost in

(13:14):
anything you choose to do. Butactually, what have the
challenges been for you as anartist? When I have some
success, I'll let you know aboutthat.
No, I mean, you know, Idon't have that fear of showing
my work thing. I've been anartist all my life. I don't
remember a time when I wasn'treally one. So I don't have that

(13:38):
thing where I'm nervous aboutsharing the work. I
don't, it's for me, it's justkind of part and parcel of who I
am, and that that's probablyarrogance. But, you know, I'm a
creative director. What do youwant? Arrogance is in the blood,
you know? But I would say that,yeah, I'm nervous of
feeling belittled, but I think Iprobably got over that. I don't

(14:02):
think I really had, I think mybiggest problem with the work
is, is getting around to doingit and committing to it.
And, you know, the time
issue, yeah, yeah, not so muchtime as, like, you know, I'm of
this belief that anything worthhaving is must be hard work. So
I sort of push myself to, kindof do, to be outside of what I
think I can do at any one pointin time, and that always is

(14:23):
challenging and hard, and youdon't necessarily want to do it,
and you kind of, you know, so,but you do want to do it at the
same time. It's just kind of,it's a push and pull thing, and
I think that's probably thehardest thing. I've had
no real problem with sticking it ona wall. I don't necessarily want
to hear what people say, butI've got no problem with
sticking art on a wall. It's morethough, than making it that I
have a kind of ongoingchallenge, but it's with myself.

(14:45):
It's not with anyone.
Yeah, that's interesting. Itreminds me, actually, of
something else Nadia said. Iwatched your interview, Nadia
with the Asian Comms Network,and you were making the point
about feeling like the only onein the room in your PR
world, and I wondered if thatrelated equally to your

(15:07):
experience in the world of art,how does that shift at all? The
teams that I work on, there'sactually quite a few artists
within the agency, so it'sactually been quite nice to be
able to share that work withthem. And, yeah, I think I've
just been being a bit more openabout what I do, and that

(15:29):
strikes discussions more andmore people. And it turns out
that they might not be artiststhemselves, but they collect art
and and I think it's, it's agreat way to open open doors and
age, of course, you'vehighlighted to me before. You
know, self belief is a reallysignificant barrier. You know,
it, it's easy to recognise, youknow, all of the issues around

(15:51):
time and economics, for example,and also culture. You know, for
example, there may be culturalpressures within a family, you
know, regarding the validity, ifyou like, of being an artist. Ade
you've always been veryclear about self belief being a
barrier. And I'm interested inhow you how all of you negotiate

(16:16):
that roller coaster, if youlike, I imagine there's good
days and bad days? I
think confidence grows. I thinkin terms of setting up this
exhibition, I'm fairly, youknow, I'm, I'm new to curation.
I'm new to putting onexhibitions. I've been taking
photographs for decades, butthat side of things was fairly

(16:38):
new. But if no one else is doingit, you've just, you just got to
do it yourself and and actually,what I realised when the
quality of art and artists cameforward was that this is
legitimate. This is proper artthis is a real art exhibition

(17:00):
with value, with currency, withcredibility. And one of the
things I was most proud of wasthe the democracy of it, I
suppose, the lack of politics.You know, we're all from
different agencies, differentroles within agencies, different
stages of our careers. Somepeople have escaped their career

(17:21):
and gone professional, buteveryone involved in this show
has been humble and helpful andsupportive and given time and
support to all of the otherartists, no matter what stage
they are at with their art orwhat they're showing and so that
helps give people with lessconfidence to show their art. Or

(17:46):
perhaps, you know, some peoplehave shown art for the very
first time or sold art for thevery first time within our
shows, and that's one of thethings that I'm most proud of.
Some have returned to their artafter a hiatus or many years of
having down tools. And I lovethat too. And I also love
putting a range of peoplealongside each other, because

(18:07):
that's that, that support cangive people the confidence to
say, You know what, I'm I'mreally proud of my art. I'm
showing alongside some amazingprofessionals who are very
highly recognised and and theylike my work. So, yeah, I mean,
there are self barriers forsure. There are time barriers

(18:29):
for sure, if you're aprofessional artist, but I know
that everyone involved in theshow is overcoming those, those
time barriers for sure, whetherthey're staying up late or
working every single weekend oftheir life. I don't know, but
they're producing, and they'reproducing amazing stuff. I mean,
you should see Fola's abstractart, the sculptures are just

(18:51):
stunning. And Simon, in terms ofputting himself out, there, is,
you know, has semi nude selfportraits in this his show. So
there's certainly plenty ofcourage there, and Nadia's
family portraits are amazing.So, you know, it's confidence,
and overcoming those barriers issomething that could be nurtured
through a network. And I hopethat not just through the show,

(19:13):
but by the way, that thisnetwork sort of stays in touch
all the way through the year andcontinues to roll as a
collective can give thatsort of support.
Yeah, and Simon, you were justsaying, you know, you don't have
problems with hanging your art.Is it more about the connection
than the wall space? In terms ofwhat The Art of PR is doing?

(19:37):
Would you say that it's theconnection is offering building
a community as Ade was justsaying, that's actually maybe
more important than theexposure.
I think it's really nice to chatabout. You know, I went, I went
through the art college system.I did fine art up in Newcastle.

(19:57):
And, you know, you spend all daychatting about arts, you
chat about art stuff. Andactually it can kind of get a
bit annoying after a while, but,you know, on the whole, it was
great. And then you sort of endup in the commercial world,
because you've got to get a joband you want to get a mortgage
and all that kind of thing. Youend up sort of working for a
living. You don't talk about artanymore. And the minute you get
a bit arty about something,they'll get a bit, you
know, people sort of like, theydon't shun you, but they're kind

(20:20):
of, they get twitchy, you know?And so actually, it's really
nice to actually, genuinely talkabout art with people who are
really interested in art,because that's not a thing that
happens very much. And the workI make just sort of tight
figurative work. It, again, iskind of like even in art spaces,
is kind of not really talkedabout that much. It's not the
it's not the world's mostpopular art form. So, you know,

(20:41):
it's really nice to kind of bein a space where everybody just
accepts each other's work, ishappy to talk about art. I think
that's quite a refreshing spaceto be in.
Yeah, absolutely. And I reallylike your use of the word
twitchy, because I do feel thatthe deprivations of our access
to arts with the cuts, whetherit's, you know, to venues,
whether it's in education, fromschool all the way through to

(21:04):
university. I think it's also adeprivation in curiosity. So how
we experience art, how we feelable to respond or interpret
art, and without thinking, am Iright to think this, or I won't
say this, because maybe that'ssilly, because there's so much

(21:24):
elitism, unfortunately that hasbeen wrapped around the art
world. And I think curiosity isanother really important value
that artists possess and helpcultivate. So Ade, if we came
back to your wet platephotography, for example, I
think there's wonderful alchemyin that. And actually it's

(21:47):
something I think that's veryclearly shared with Fola, but in
terms of the photography andthose emotional results that you
achieve in your portraits, is awhole other process. I love
that it's a return to reallyold traditional techniques from
the 1850s when you come from thewizzy digital PR world and

(22:11):
basically risk explosions tocreate it!
It is quite a flammable process.That's certainly true. And there
have been times where I've losta few eyebrow hairs, for sure,
but the wet plate process and anart form, I just think, is

(22:31):
wonderful. I mean, it was theone of the very, very earliest
forms of photography, and Ithink still can make the finest
results, also in an age whereimages are everywhere, and there
are so many of them, and themore of anything, kind of, the

(22:52):
less value it has. Perhaps, withwet plates you go through this
very, it's quite some prettycomplex chemistry and a process
and using old equipment, and youhave to wear gloves and goggles,
and you're dealing with aprocess that looks like
something out of a SherlockHolmes film with concoctions in

(23:14):
little brown bottles to produceone finished metal or glass
plate with an image on it, onephysical object at the end of
it. And I, I like that. It'ssort of, it creates one piece.
So you're very deliberate inyour approach to each individual

(23:35):
singular photograph. And thenwhen you've when you've got it,
looks like no other photographyou've ever seen because of the
way that the chemistry onlyreads UV light, and because of
the long exposures, and becauseof the beautiful old lenses that
you're using that have wonderfulglass, and the ordinary becomes
extraordinary. And I used to doa lot of film photography where

(23:59):
I'd be getting very creative andexperimental by sort of smearing
Vaseline on lenses and doing allsorts of things to sort of try
and get more mood and anatmosphere. But with wet plate,
I've I've found that justfocusing on the ordinary, it's
not the right word, but sort ofordinary people, rather than
going for, you know, wacky looksor or crazy setups. I just try

(24:23):
and photograph very plain peoplethrough this beautiful process.
And they become extraordinary,by the way the this, this
process registers them and thencaptures them. It's, and it's,
there's an element of a timemachine about it that, you know,
the dress may be modern, butthey feel antiqued. And everyone
kind of thinks, well, noteveryone, but perhaps sometimes

(24:44):
you look at old historic photosfrom Victorian times and think
people looked different backthen. But actually, if you take
photographs of people todayusing the same process, we look
the same. So it's, it's aninteresting sort of historical
level as well. I. Love theprocess. I love keeping the
historical element of it alive.I enjoy getting knee deep in

(25:06):
chemistry. And absolutely lovethe the finished result. And
once you varnish them in thetraditional way, with with
sanderac or shellac, you know,they should last for several 100
years. Wow, that's incredible,isn't it? So usually capturing a
moment in time, permanently.
Absolutely, far longer than anyother form of photography. You

(25:26):
know, these are the ones fromthe from the American Civil War.
Many of them are, you know,almost as good today as they
were when they were taken.
And of course, you've capturedSimon in his studio. Simon, what
was your response to thefinished product.
I loved it. Of course. It'samazing, fantastic. I mean, just
the technicalities of it aloneare intriguing and fascinating.

(25:50):
Because I think you take anyartist to go back to your point
earlier, take any artist andwhat they have at their core is
an innate curiosity. So just theprocess alone was fascinating.
But, yeah, the results areincredible. I mean, it's
wonderful to see. And it wasgreat, actually, because the day
we did it, my kids werephotographed
as well. Jacob was actually,Jacob was in the show. And

(26:14):
so they loved the process aswell. They were fascinated by
it. And they, you
know, as did your cat, Simon,who took a liking to
my darkroom tent. Indeed. Andmoved in for the afternoon.
Yeah. All in all, it was a greatday, just because it was, you
know, just something reallyinteresting and something, you
know, and at the heart ofanything I do, and this goes

(26:35):
across the world of PR, throughto art, through to all of it. I
think we're all searching forinterestingness. Those are the
stories we go down the pub andtell our friends. Did you hear
this? Do you know this? That'skind of that's the stories we
all tell each other, and that'sbecause that's interestingness.
Yeah. And I do think thisprocess of alchemy and intuition

(26:56):
is really important,particularly as our digital age
rapidly turns into a hand over,potentially, to AI. You know, we
have to even start thinkingabout not handing over our
thinking skills to AI, forexample. So for me, this raises
an even more important emphasison this opportunity, not only to

(27:19):
cultivate curiosity, but todevelop working intuitively at
the same time and Fola, this isobviously at the heart of your
work, and I'm particularlyinterested how not only is your
work cultivating curiosity orworking intuitively, but also,

(27:40):
would you say it demands evengreater courage, perhaps, to
work in that way, where you'rein a space where narratives may
not be instantly clear, becauseyou're demanding reflection from
the viewer?
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. It'skind of it's really interesting,
because I started out makingcharcoal drawings, which were

(28:03):
figurative drawings. A lot ofmyself, to be honest, because it
was during lockdown as well. Andthen I, at that point, really
didn't understand abstraction.Like I was like, how do you how
do you even do that? How do youcreate abstract work? And I kind
of just want it startedexperimenting with, like I

(28:25):
started with just drawing, justbased on how I was feeling that
day, not looking at anything,not kind of copying anything,
but just seeing how the charcoalmoved or the paint moved. And
then that became my way ofconnecting with other different
materials and seeing how Icould, you know, just based on

(28:47):
my own feeling that day andcuriosity about what the
material could do, I think I'm avery like my imagination is
right. So I'm always thinking,Oh, what if, what if you put
this material with thatmaterial. And so I never know
what I'm going to make. I neverknow how it's going to turn out.
I often dismantle and then putthat together. Most, most

(29:11):
creations are a happy accident,usually from sort of hating it
and then ripping it apart, andthen from that emerges
something. But it does requirethat process. You know,
interestingly, I think myprocess, my tapping into my
creativity as an artist,and developing an artistic
practice was actually born outof wanting to connect with

(29:32):
myself and actually and connectwith my feelings too. So now
that my practice is very muchbased on that. And you know,
just going with what Iintuitively feel in the moment,
whether it's paper, whether it'swire, whether it's clay, just
using my hands to kind ofexpress what is moving through

(29:56):
me, it's yeah, it's a wonderfulbut also weird
process, because you genuinelydon't know what you're going to
get by the end
of it. Yeah, is it quitecathartic after a hard day at
the office?
Yeah. I mean, interestingly, Ican never make after I've been I
can't do anything after work.Like it's a different part of my
brain. But, you know, luckily,my agency have been so

(30:18):
supportive. And I don't work onFridays, and that's my art day,
so Friday through to the weekendI'm making, and it's just like a
different part of me, so a verygentle, calm part of me, and it
does require a bit of solitude,but yeah, it's great,
yeah, and I can completelyimagine that we were talking

(30:42):
earlier about self doubt, andthe struggle with self doubt,
that that's potentially morechallenging when you work
intuitively, if you feel youneed to offer explanations for
your art. But do you let thatconcern you, the explanation of
what you've created?
No, not at all. I mean, like,I've got really good friends who

(31:04):
come by and like to just comeand sit in my studio and have a
look, and they, you know,provide their own interpretation
of what they see. And I'm like,Yeah, sure, if that's what you
see, that's what it is, youknow, like, because I don't
start with a narrative or aparticular story in mind. It's
very much how I want, you know,because it's based on feeling.

(31:25):
It's also about how other peoplefeel when they see the work,
right? I kind of describe themas like Objects of Meditation.
You know? I want you to sit andponder and whatever comes to
you, whatever meaning you findfrom it, or even if you just
like the look of it, that like,that's enough. So, yeah, I don't
think there's a need for me totell a story alongside it, yeah.

(31:47):
So taking Infinite as anexample, included in the current
Art of PR exhibition, there mustbe multiple responses and
interpretations to that piecethat may not even be what you've
personally held
exactly and interestingly,Infinite came out of me working

(32:07):
on another piece, not liking it,ripping up the paper. And then
as I was gathering the paper tothrow it away, finding just
seeing like, oh, this, thislooks interesting. This, this
heap of torn paper justlooked really fascinating, and
that was where the piecestarted. So yeah,

(32:30):
and actually, I'd like to justbriefly highlight another piece
that interested me, which isreturning to your drawings, and
I think it's charcoal and goldleaf, and it's called Comfort
Zone. I wondered if you couldjust bring to life for the
listeners what Comfort Zonedepicts and what it meant to
you.
Well, yeah, I mean, it wasprobably part of my embracing my

(32:54):
artistic self and recognisingthat I really needed to break
free of this comfort zone that Ifelt I'd been living in, this
comfort zone of safety, of, youknow, conformity to some extent
of, you know, live as mostpeople do, but recognising that
you're a bit different, youknow. And so I it was kind of a

(33:17):
reflection on me being in,definitely being in that comfort
zone, but it being such anuncomfortable space for me at
that point that I just needed tobreak free of it. And yeah, so
that's kind of what that
piece is. And I wondered if theidea of a comfort zone related
to the rest of you, you know,perhaps the comfort zone of the
professional career versus lifeas an artist. There's no

(33:41):
comfort zone in a professionalcareer, I'd much rather be
making art, although,
yeah, I suppose it's more maybejust the financial security
might be a comfort zone comparedto maybe the risks. Yeah, is
that more relatable?
Yeah, I think for me, certainly,I don't feel like I can give up
my day job to pursue an artcareer just yet, when I think

(34:02):
about all the commitments that Ihave and responsibilities, but
it would be a great retirementplan. I think
every industry should havesomething like the art of PR,
because for for a lot of peoplewho are making excellent,
wonderful art, but don'tnecessarily have, you know, the
access or the knowledge on howto turn that professional even

(34:23):
though the standard may beplenty good enough to have
opportunities to have a steppingstone into the professional art
world via an industry ledinitiative that can promote the
artists while they continue todraw their salary, can provide
that sort of that, that steppingstone, perhaps. And you know,

(34:43):
I'd love to see, you know, theart of accountancy and the art
of nursing and the art of allsorts of things, because I think
a lot of people just, justsimply cannot afford to give up
their part time or freelance oror full time job. And really,
really go for it, because thereare a lot of barriers, and there
are only the select few in in somany of the arts that can

(35:07):
actually sort of earn enough tolook after their families.
Yeah, and it is feeding into aproblem around elitism, or how
it's perceived.
I have a take on this. So Ithink that I've taught this for
many, many years, and I'vetalked to a lot of people about
it, which is that if you makesomething with your hands, it
doesn't really matter what thatis. That might be a sculpture, a

(35:27):
painting. Might be doing somegardening or making a cake. It
doesn't really matter. I thinkyou use a different part of your
brain. You do use a differentpart of your brain because
you're using your hands, and Ithink that's very good for you.
I think that we spend too muchof our lives up in our heads, or
just scrolling on screens ordoing things on screens for our
jobs and all that kind of stuff.And we've lost the joy of using

(35:48):
our hands a lot of the time, alot of our hands to hands to
make things like I say that doesneed to be a piece of art, but I
think it's, I think you couldsolve a lot of a portion of the
mental health crisis by havingmore people make things with
their hands. I think you willsleep if you make something,
whatever it is. I think yousleep the best night's sleep you

(36:08):
have when you do that. I thinkyou sleep the sleep of a king.
Because I think it's, I thinkit's very, very good for us.
Yeah, absolutely. And there's ainteresting struggle, isn't
there for an artist. Becausethere are those benefits. You
know, your own participation inyour own art has those mental
health benefits, whilst,meanwhile, maybe the struggle
and demand creates that rollercoaster we were talking about

(36:31):
earlier. It makes me thinkactually Nadia and Simon,
whether you might have a take ona kind of boom and bust, sense
of risk, even so, Nadia, ofcourse, participating in Sky
Arts Portrait of the Year. Lastyear, you described that as "a

(36:51):
game changer and a launch pad."And Simon, you know, another
prestigious award, the BPPortrait Award. I wondered
whether that was a guy, a gamechanger for you, but from both
your points of view, how helpfulis the prestige of those awards,
or is it all part of the rollercoaster?

(37:12):
I think it is really helpful. Ithink when I did mention it to
people that they want to knowmore, they want to watch the
show, but also they want to seemore of my art. I was then
commissioned more as well. So itdid open up doors, and so many
people watched the show, so itwas really nice when they could
see me on the show. They justYeah. It opened up dialogue,

(37:34):
which was really, really great.And then it also led me to the
art of PR. My colleague told herthat I was on the show, and then
she introduced me to Ade. So ithas definitely been a game
changer for me. Yeah, it's
made more connections. Yeah,absolutely. And Simon, how does
that feel to you? That kind ofprestige of an award? How

(37:58):
helpful has that been to you?
Well, I mean, obviously I didn'twin the BP award. I was just in
the show. I didn't like it. Imean, I wish I had won it, but I
think one of the problems is thesort of work that I make. You
can't really imagine it inpeople's houses. If you went
around and saw what am Ipaintings in someone's house,
you'd think they might be a bitmad. And I accept that, I accept
that as the nature of the work Imake. I could probably do more

(38:20):
portraits, but I probablywouldn't. I just want to make
this work. And so therefore, Isort of accepted a long time ago
that I wasn't going to be ableto turn this work commercial,
and that's fine. And sotherefore the BP was great, but
it didn't really change. What itcould have led to was me doing a
lot of portraits, but I didn'treally want to do portraits of

(38:42):
people, so therefore I want tomake my work, and that's not
easily sold. So it's just adilemma.
Yeah, but it's also the courageof your commitment, and let's
bring to life for the listenersthat dilemma, if you like, in
your work. So I know you'veworked extensively around film
marketing in the past. But Ialso saw a comment you made how

(39:07):
world at heart had remained inyour top film since it came out,
and how David Lynch "was thecreative director I wish I'd
had." And of course, David Lynchconjures up surrealism, dream
like imagery, unease,enigmatic characters, non
traditional narratives.
Absolutely, absolutely. I loveall those things. I think I fell

(39:29):
in love with David Lynch when Iheard that story about he used
to write by going into a cafe,loading up on about six
espressos and then just writingfuriously for the rest of the
day. That's the way to do it.That's, yeah, that's the way the
tackle work like crack arm andget yourself all fired up. So I
sort of, I like him for lots ofreasons. I like his kind of
attitude. I like his I like hisswagger. There's lots of things

(39:49):
I liked about David Lynch, butyes, the non traditional
narratives, the kind of slightlysurreal edge, the kind of, I
mean to go to Fola's pointabout works about her. I think
all, all work, in some ways, isa self portrait, but I also feel
like for a lot, maybe not allartists, but I think for a lot
of artists, it's almost like youtry and construct your own kind
of religion, you know, you'retrying to, like, build your own

(40:11):
mysticism around life, toexplain life to you. You know,
you talked about explainingwork, but if we could explain
what it is we're trying to do,we'd be writers, you know, and
we don't. It's the very natureof the fact that you can't
really explain what it is. Evenwith tight figurative work like
mine, I can't really,necessarily eloquently explain
what it is that I'm trying to Ican talk about references and

(40:33):
but the meaning is kind of sitswithin the work, not within an
explanation.
Could you, for the listeners,help bring to life the two
pieces you chose for The Art ofPR this year, because there are
those elements, you know, senseof unease, the blindfold, the
lightning, for example. But I'lllet you bring that to life for

(40:53):
listeners.
There's two paintings. One is oftwo boys who are just sort of
entering teenhood, and so arefaced with looking, one is looking
back towards childhood, theother one is looking towards
adulthood with a level ofapprehension. And then
ultimately, I want to make aseries of seven about seven ages
of man. This was, this was oneof the ages I chose. The other

(41:14):
one is myself, blindfold on abuoy. The pose comes from Paul de
la Roches execution of Lady JaneGrey, the life would kind of
represent these sort of lifestages, but kind of sit in
isolation as isolated moments.And so this is the age of 55 I'm
actually 54 but I've pickedthese numbers as a Fibonacci

(41:36):
sequence of numbers. Shakespeare defined in the seven
ages of man, an older age thatwas called the Judge. And so
this is about as you get older,you have uncertainty around the
things that you thought you wereconvinced by when you were
young, in the passion of youth,suddenly feel less solid and

(41:56):
more shaky. So it's myself in astorm, blindfold on a shipping
buoy with my big fat belly out
even more courage. But yeah,there is that sense of anxiety,
and it's a really importantpoint to highlight, actually,
isn't it, that shift aboutthings that we think are certain
and things that becomeuncertain. And going back to our

(42:18):
comments previously, aboutmental health and your comments,
Simon about, you know, theimportance of how art or making
things with our hands can reallyhelp our mental health. You
know, create different spaces,different different ways of
thinking, and just a space awayfrom habitual negative thinking,
perhaps, or all of those worriesthat prey on us day in and day

(42:40):
out. And I said to my wife theother day that I'd make every
child in school complete asketchbook on a regular basis.
Oh, wouldn't it just bewonderful. I think they're
saviours, yeah, yeah, you know,I think my boys really work hard
on their sketchbooks. Yeah,because I'm a tyrant, yeah. But
it shows in their attitude, andit shows like, you know, they
get on with work, and they'rebetter for it, and they've

(43:02):
always got something to do.
And maybe you all agree,especially as parents, that it's
also a great exercise inbuilding confidence, because the
child is able to buildexpression. Would you agree with
that?
Yeah, I would absolutely. And mytwo little ones do really love
getting creative, getting theirhands messy, creating stuff, and

(43:26):
they like to do it alongside meas well, which is really they
want me to do something, andthey will do it too. And that's
really quite nice. They mightget frustrated that theirs isn't
what they think it would be.But, you know, I always tell
them that practice makes better,and, you know, don't strive for
perfection at all. Just keepkeep going, keep working that

(43:47):
air, keep testing.
And also, mess makes fun andjoy. I mean, as a notoriously
hyperactive toddler that myfamily still haven't recovered
from, mess was pure joy, andit's remembering art has a role
in joy.
There's something almost all ofthe artists in the exhibition of
have said, is that you know thatthe art that's on the wall that

(44:10):
they're making because they lovemaking it, not because they're
making it for an audience or tosell or for a show. They love
creating. The process ofcreating is as joyous as coming
to some sort of finished result.
Brian Eno actually once saidthat, as children, we learn
through play, but as we getolder, we play through art.
Yeah, that's really importantspace and a really important

(44:33):
quality to not lose just becausewe're grown ups.
In PR we can be, you know, we'reoften looking to finesse our
clients and to make everythinglook perfect and clean and just
right. And actually, it's lovelyjust to cut loose, yeah, messy
and have no brief and just makefor the hell of it.
Yeah, absolutely so. Nigel, Iwas just about to pick up on the

(44:55):
fact that, you know, as we werejust discussing with Simon, you
know, his passion regardingcinema, obviously, you have a
lifelong passion for cinema. Iwondered if you'd like to tell
us a bit more about the A to Zof movie posters.
Back in 2018 I wanted to learn alittle bit about digital
painting. I'd done a concept artcourse, and part of that, they

(45:18):
taught you how to paint withPhotoshop. And I realised that I
wanted to explore that more andjust practice and that I tend to
be someone that might startsomething and not finish it as
well. So I like to set myselflike an A to Z project, just to
make sure that I get 26paintings out of it. I did it

(45:39):
before with iconic figures,which was done with charcoal,
and I just wanted to practiceportraits back then. I just
thought, well, I love I lovemovies, but there are some
really awesome movie poster artout there, so it'd be quite nice
to just practice with that. Igot through to the letter K, and
then had babies and covid andlife just hit. So it just

(46:02):
stopped in 2020, so when thisopportunity came to exhibit, I
thought, well, I can do a littlenod to that Ade said, and get a
little bit further. So I managedto do the letters through to P,
which was
nice. Yeah, wonderful. And Fola,I'm curious, actually, whether
film has a relationship withyou. Maybe it's too narrative

(46:23):
for a master of intuition, or,then again, maybe there is art
cinema that really suits yourinterests.
Yeah, it's interesting becausemy I studied film and television
studies. I worked at the BFI. Iwanted to be a screenwriter. I
was very immersed in the filmworld in my 20s. I still love

(46:47):
films, but just in a differentway. Yeah, I think, you know,
all of these visual references,all of these stories like play a
part, they kind of stay in yourpsyche and influence what you
create. I'm a very sort ofvisual person. I, you know, look
at a lot of images on a dailybasis. And I look, I look at a

(47:07):
lot of things, you know, watch.I watch things I kind of like,
find the things that areinteresting to me in the visual.
I don't know everything that Isee around me. So, yeah, I
definitely think film and thekind of, I guess it's about the
gaze, and I think it's about theartistic quality. I mean, I

(47:29):
love, like, art house films. Ilike, you know, I just like the
interesting things that you cando with cinema. So I think all
of those things definitely arein me, and I'm sure they come
out in different ways, eitherway.
Now it's very interesting, Ithink, when you can see a
blurring of fine art and popularculture, for example, or how

(47:51):
stereotypes and icons, you know,can be adopted into other art
forms or as other ways ofcommenting and Ade, of course,
we crossed paths at Sky Movies.And of course, here you are
developing wonderfulphotography. How impactful is
the world of cinema behindeverything you do? Hugely.

(48:13):
I grew up watching every filmunder the sun, you know, from
old Charlie Chaplin all the wayup to modern day action films
and everything in between. Andit's weird. I mean, sort of, as
Simon was saying, it's, it'shard and awkward to sort of
explain your own art. But Imean, like a film like The Third

(48:34):
Man would be such a goodreference point for my film
photography work. You know, youcould freeze frame that film at
any moment, and the contrast andthe light direction and the
jaunty angles were just exactlymy vibe, and that would probably
be a way of it, sort ofexplaining my approach to sort
of film photography, or when Iwas smearing Vaseline over the

(48:58):
lens again, I couldn't really, Ididn't really have the
vocabulary. I didn't go to artschool, etc, to sort of explain
why, and I'm not, even thoughI'm in PR, I'm not actually
hugely confident with words,especially in the art, in
describing art. But I could takea song like A Forest by The Cure
and say my pictures sound likethat, if that makes sense, with

(49:21):
lots of reverb and echoey moodand atmosphere. So there's
always cross referencing fromall different mood forms in
terms of inspirations and and Iguess we sort of soak it up. And
elements stay with you for foryears and decades, and can sort
of emerge later in a piece,either intentionally or

(49:42):
unexpectedly.
Yeah, absolutely. And I loved,by the way, the soundtrack that
was created by all of theartists for The Art of PR that
was a brilliant way of perhapsdescribing work, or just again
highlighting diversity and rangeand all of the different

(50:03):
influences that can be behindany one artist.
Yeah, I think so. And it sortof, it shows the diversity of
the people and the influencesinvolved right across the show,
but it also gives an outsideaudience different access points
to the show, sort of, somepeople think that they're not
art gallery kind of people arenot that interested in art, but

(50:26):
they might be interested inmusic, but actually, you know,
the themes are all there to beexplored. It was Hoxton radio
show that could sort of bringour sort of combined efforts to
a new super cool audience, whichwas very nice, but yeah, again,
the diversity of art on Show andThe exhibition was incredible
this year. And I think that sortof played out across the song

(50:49):
choices that yeah, thesoundtrack,
yeah. I absolutely loved it. Ireally did, and discovered some
new tunes too. So big shout outto Hoxton radio, and I'll sign
post the link. So as we headtowards our very last minutes,
I'd like to end on the questionI ask everybody. If each of you

(51:09):
might like to respond to theseries question can art save us?
Fola, would you like to
kick off? I think it can. Ithink it can. I mean, I think in
a time where I feel like we're,just the world we are all in
some sort of crisis, orcrisis of, you know, the world
is changing, and what we'veknown before is no longer and I

(51:32):
think it requires us to almostlet go of of what we've known
and to imagine somethingdifferent for ourselves and
create something new rather thanresisting it. I think it
requires us to embrace it andimagine what could be. And I
think for me, that is whatpushes me to do. That's what I'm

(51:53):
doing through my art. I'mimagining the next thing. I'm
not looking back, and I'msometimes in the present, but I
think it's also about thatimagination of what could be and
how do you want to feel. And Ithink if more of us were able to
tap into ourselves, tap intothat, the courage that's
required to interrogate youryour own role to play in the

(52:17):
world, and your own feelings andand just like you know, find
that joy within yourself. Ithink we'd just be happier
people, and I think we wouldtreat each other better. So,
yeah, absolutely. I think, youknow, art can definitely save
us.
Thank you. And Simon can art saveus?
I'd say yes and no, probably alot of what Fola just said,

(52:37):
can art save us as a society. No,I don't think it can, can art
save us as individuals 100% butit's hard work, and you've got
to put the hours in, and you'vegot to it's, you know, anything
worth having is hard work. So,you know, yes, art can save us
as individuals, but I don'tthink it can save society, but
maybe we all saved ourselves asindividuals. We live in a better

(52:58):
society.
So then, yeah, and maybe thesocietal role of art in, for
example, social justice orprotest, for example.
Maybe, maybe at the end of theday, you know, like, I know,
there's this sort of concernthat is elitist, and that
existed when I was a kid, youknow, I grew up on a council
estate in Stafford, and, like,you know, people thought art was

(53:19):
just, people didn't want toengage a lot because they
thought it pretentious, youknow. Like, pretentious, you
know, like, people are scared tobe pretentious, and it's an it's
a nervous thing because peoplethink they're putting themselves
above others, and people don'twant to stick their head over
the parapet. But at the end ofthe day, all you need to make
art is a piece of paper and apencil. They're like, the
cheapest things in the world,you know, absolute so cheap. And
you could go and make arttomorrow. It's the easiest

(53:42):
thing, but also the hardestthing to stick out.
I think maybe free pencils andpaper at the next Art of PR,
then Ade.
Yes. So Nadia can art save us?
I like to think it can,again, like Simon said, from an
individual point of view.There's so much beauty in art,

(54:03):
the feelings that it evokes whenpeople look at your art and feel
something, but also mentalhealth. Just, you know, art is
therapy. It's just Yeah, switchoff from all the ugliness
something outside world.
Healthier people, healthiersociety may be a healthier
world. So all the pressures onyou now, Ade I'm afraid I've

(54:27):
left you till last. Can art saveus? Your profound ultimate
comment. From the
guy with the weakest artisticvocabulary, thank you. I don't
know about anyone else, I thinkit saved me from viewing myself
as a shallow, facile cog in acommercial machine, and allowed
me to sort of find somethingthat I absolutely love in life.

(54:51):
I like lots of things, but Iabsolutely love what I do with
wet plate, and I love the peoplethat it's introduced me to. You
and brought me closer to so itcertainly saved me in some
respects, and I'm sure itcould do the same for others
too.
Yeah, no, wonderful. It's justbeen wonderful hearing all of

(55:13):
your thoughts and comments todayand really helping to bring to
life not just the purpose of theArt of PR, but all of the lovely
values and qualities that arecoming out of it. And for the
listeners, I must highlight thattwo artists, Tonye Ekine and
David Emmanuel Noel, whoexhibited in the Art of PR last
year and this year, wereincluded in Season Seven of this

(55:35):
series. So please do head to theseason and listen to their
incredibly interesting storiesand how they contribute in the
world of art. Also, please dohead to Occhi contemporary arts
virtual gallery for the digitalexhibition of The Art of PR
until the 15th of October, and Iwill put the link on this

(55:57):
episode page. So I can't thankyou all enough for making the
time today. I have no doubt youdidn't have time to take part at
all! I really appreciate it, andI really value everything
you're doing. Thank you so much,so much. Thank you so
much. You're very welcome andlisteners, thank you for joining
us too, and remember, please doshare this free to listen series

(56:20):
wherever you can to help makethe arts all of ours. Thank you
again, everybody. Thank you.

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