The Courage and Craft of Two Poets.

Both BBC Words First Finalists, Billie Meredith is a poet and performer and Saf-S2E is a poet and rapper and they are active members of Young Identity. Recognised as some of the UK’s best emerging talent, they are involved in the Cities Untold project, a partnership between Young Identity, the Manchester Literature Festival and Danish literature festivals. Their commissions will be inspired by the secrets and untold narratives of a city. Saf-S2E also has an album out now, Ink is Blood and Billie's theatre work has been reviewed as brilliant in the Adhesion of Love, written by multi-award winning playwright Stephen Hornby. Billie played Walt Whitman, America's 'father of free verse.' We talk about destiny, poverty, fear, developing craft, Manchester and Africa and ask whose industrial revolution was it? With so much creative and innovative work coming out of Young Identity, this is their cultural revolution and we should probably take Saf-S2E's poetic advice, ‘Expect the Unexpected.’

Series Audio Editor - Courtesy of Joey Quan.

Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb

Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can also be found here: https://www.canartsaveus.com

Discover Billie Meredith and Saf-S2E here: www.youngidentity.org/ 

Discover Saf-S2E's album, Ink is Blood, here: https://open.spotify.com/album/08GlLcmCeC4arevzbtDZhW

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to this podcast seriesasking the question Can art save
us? I'm starting the firstnational and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to

(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? And

(00:51):
today I have two guests. BillyMeredith a spoken word artist,
writer and performer and SAF-S2Ea performance poet and
rapper, they are active membersof Young Identity, Manchester's
premier spoken word collective.Billy and Saf have both been
selected to work with the BBCrecognized as some of the UK's
best emerging talent. Currently,they are involved in the City's

(01:14):
Untold project in Denmark, apartnership between Young
Identity the ManchesterLiterature Festival, and Danish
literature festivals. TheirCommissions will be inspired by
the secrets and untoldnarratives of a city. Saf
also has an album out now, Ink isBlood, and we can no doubt look
forward to more performance workfrom Billy. Billy was previously

(01:35):
cast as a young black woman inthe role of an old white man,
Walt Whitman. Walt Whitman isknown as the 'father of free
verse', and he is one ofAmerica's most influential
poets. With so much creative andinnovative work coming out of
young identity, we shouldprobably take Saf's advice, a
title of one of his poems,Expect the Unexpected. Hello,

(02:00):
Billy and Saf and a very warmwelcome.
Hello, thank you for having us.
It's an absolute pleasure,thanks for making the time. So
on that note, Saf, I wasinterested to read in fact, on
your Instagram account, in yourbio, you say "I don't acknowledge

(02:22):
the term spoken word." And thisis a really interesting area of
debate. I'm interested in bothof your views on this in terms
of the labels around page poetryspoken word, performance poetry,
there's, there seems to be acontest. I'm wondering what your

(02:42):
point of view is on that andwhat your your preferences are,
and why you don't acknowledgethe term spoken word Saf.
In the simplest way, spoken wordimplies words that are being
spoken. And everyone speakswords generally. So the term
spoken word is literally whatwe're doing now. It's not

(03:03):
necessarily poetry. But then inthe same breath, I firmly
believe that poetry exists ineverything. So to make spoken
word, sort of a genre, I think,sort of almost belittles the
work that these artists areputting into their craft.

(03:23):
Because I think it's more thanjust speaking.
Yeah. And is it a little bitlike stating the obvious spoken
word?
Yeah, basically, I feel a lot ofthe spoken word is doing more
than stating the obvious.They're really bringing
something to the table. So yeah,it feels it feels like it feels

(03:46):
like an othering almost.
Yeah, that's interesting. Wouldyou go along with that Billie? Do
you have a different view?
No, I pretty much share thatopinion. I know, there's debate
around that kind of terminologyand what some performance poets
prefer to use. But Iwholeheartedly agree in the

(04:07):
sense that the othering ofperformance work, somehow
just removes it from its coreself, which is poetry, and that
exists just as well as thewritten page. So I agree that
the idea of spoken word is alittle bit obtuse. And it holds
just as well, in terms of poetryas a standard and then

(04:29):
performing poetry as aperformance poet.
And furthermore, poetry sort ofbegan as an oral tradition
before it was written. So tothen make performance poetry
sort of something that isn'tpart of the tradition of poetry
feels almost like dismissing awhole history of the art form

(04:53):
that we're in.
Yeah, that's really interesting.It's not exactly just been
invented. Yeah. Is thata tad like colonial history
lessons that school?
Somewhat, I'd say that there isa sort of like, there's a

(05:14):
mirroring between the two,because a lot of these countries
that were colonized have richoral traditions of poetry. I can
say, personally, the countriesthat I'm from Kenya and Sudan,
both hold poetry at a highstandard and performing of those
poetry goes along with thewriting of the book, of poetry

(05:38):
and those traditions. So maybethere is something that goes
hand in hand with that.
Yeah, a kind of rerepresentation of what poetry is
and its own history. Billy, Iknow that you've mentioned, you
know, your involvement inteaching and going into schools.

(05:59):
What are you witnessing in termsof poetry or the arts in terms
of how that's been encouraged orcultivated even?
I find that, when we do go intoschools, often, young people are
still very engaged with wantingto write. And I think now

(06:22):
compared to even five or sixyears ago, they have a lot less
groundwork in terms of what'sexpected of them. I remember
quite a few years ago, you wouldgo in, and they would be quite
keen, whereas now you're kind ofhaving to start from base and
explain the extensiveness ofpoetry is, and it's not just
traditional, and it's not whatyou're learning, you're in your

(06:42):
anthologies. And additionally tothat, I think, now more than
that, now, more than ever, a lotof young people just want to
express themselves. More times,when we go in, we find that they
have a lot to say. And it's justhow they get it down. And I
think their context of poetrythat they're receiving on the

(07:03):
curriculum isn't allowing spacefor themselves in understanding
that it's something that theycan partake in, it doesn't
adhere to these really strict,strict and archaic rules that
they've been taught. So I findthat as much as young people
want to engage with poetry, theystill don't really have that
connection of the modernizedform of it, and how they can

(07:24):
insert themselves into that andinto those narratives that they
want to write.
Yeah, so this sounds really toonarrow, and therefore a
deprivation, a significantdeprivation. Well, how would you
both describe your entry pointsinto poetry, whether it was
through formal education or selfdiscovery?

(07:45):
Okay. So for me, I found myselfin poetry through happy chance.
But I started in theater, so thetheater background. And I was
used to live performance andthings like that, whether it's
immersive theater, ortraditional theater. And then

(08:06):
from that, I started writingonly ever in prose, didn't
really think about the nature ofthe poetics. And then it was
from that, that I discoveredthat poetry was kind of this
separate avenue, and separate andlinked in a way to fit. And then
I developed them bothtogether. So a lot of the time I

(08:27):
used live set as a poet because a lot of the time a lot of my
early work was simply prose orcharacter work, or kind of
monologuing. And then, veryquickly, I realized that I could
insert parts of myself intothat, and it became more and
more personal. And thenultimately, I was writing
poetry, which was a reallylovely discovery for me.

(08:49):
Was any person or anything youread, particularly influential
in that or in terms of howyou discovered your commitment
to it really?
I think, ironically enough, someof my favorite writers are
comedians. And growing up, Iwould always have VHS's of

(09:14):
comedy shows. So one of myfavorite comedians is Eddie
Izzard. And I would watch hisspecials over and over and over
again as a young person, I foundthat the act of performing on
stage and the act of monologuingand writing something and
performing it back, I alwaysthought like comedians and
performers and actors had abrilliant way of analyzing the
world that you couldn't reallydo in layman's terms. It can

(09:38):
only be done on stage when youhave an audience. And I found
that through poetry had thatmessage I have been able to. I want
to be able to comment on theworld and want to be able to
slow down time and takeotherwise passing things and
really look at them under amagnifying glass and I found
that having looked up toperformers who weren't just

(10:01):
poets, but just performed ideasand got across notions about the
world to a group of people wasreally helpful for me to kind of
come in with a broadperspective. And then I can
chisel that down to, to whateverthe medium needs. So I found
that a lot of the people I lookup to are musicians, and

(10:22):
comedians and writers more thanspecifically
poets. Yeah, kind of socialcommentators in a way. And Sam,
what was your entry point? Youmentioned, Sudan, and Kenya. So
I'm interested in whether wereyou lucky enough to have a
richer tradition, you know, thatalready was opening doors for

(10:43):
you?
Yeah, but at the time, I didn'tknow if that was what was there,
as my family has always beenencouraging, of reading poetry,
and writing poetry in the house.So at home, as a young, when I

(11:03):
was young, my mom would get mewould give me sort of poems and
tell me to perform them, just tolike, sort of teach me how to
talk in front of people. Andthey pushed me towards doing
public speaking competitions,and just reading as much as I
can, but also, I fell intopoetry a lot through hip hop.

(11:26):
And a lot of the rappers that Ilook up to I pay, I always paid a
lot of attention to how thewords were structured, and the
poetic devices they put into theverses. So it was something that
I subconsciously analyzed, andthen just tried to emulate
through time, and sort ofthrough school reading, other

(11:48):
poets who we were reading in school,and something in me would tell
me, you could, you couldpossibly write better than these
people. So I would sort of tryand marry the hip hop world with
the more academic idea of poetryand sort of try and write
something that fits on bothwalls. And then, yeah, on

(12:13):
myself performing. Yeah,
yeah, sorry to interruptbecause I was gonna say
from there, was thereincreasingly a progression into
that involving music, obviously,you have your album out now. So
did it go from perhaps youworking in a solo capacity to
increasingly wanting to workwith maybe other collaborators

(12:34):
in order to bring music in?
Yeah, I found out quite quickly,that making music using
instruments, instruments andmaking instrumentals was not the
same as putting words ontopaper. So I realized I would
need to work with other people. Andfortunately, one of my best

(12:55):
friends named Artie, we went toschool together, and we sort of
started this journey. At thesame time without knowing he was
making beats in his room withouttelling anyone I was writing
raps in my room without tellinganyone. And then one day, we
found out and realized, Oh, wecould, we could do this
together. And through that,collaborated with more people

(13:18):
and ended up making this up.
So I know you have an emphasison on your work, I'm sure it's
shared by both of you, as adedication to your craft. And,
and I understand, that's reallywhat the visual artwork is
saying, on the album Ink isBlood, you're really talking

(13:39):
about what it means to bleedinto the work, your heart and
soul in that craft. I wonderedif you could both talk about
your craft, and it'd beinteresting to hear how it may
differ to each other.
For me, especially with thealbum, the title came from the

(14:02):
idea of pledging loyalty to thecraft. And sort of the album is
me talking to the craft andsaying that I'm not going to let
up from, I'm not going to let upwith the process. And I'll put
up with all the challenges thatcome with it. Because with a lot
of the artists that I look up toyou, a lot of them have gone

(14:23):
through a sort of adversity andself realizations through what
they've put into the craft and Ifeel if if I'm going to try and
follow their footsteps, I mustbe willing to put the same in as
well. So it's all about reallyjust hard work. I think from my

(14:44):
from my perspective, it's abouthard work and and sticking to
the promises you made yourself.So what was the promise you made
to yourself? To be the bestwriter time alive. Good! I don't

(15:06):
knoww if I'm there yet but that's,that's the ultimate goal.
Absolutely. And Billy, how wouldyou describe your craft?
For me personally, I feel likeit's worth hearing Saf talk
about it because I was thinkingabout my answers when he was

(15:27):
speaking. And I think more thananything is my practice grows
and grows, I think I find thatmy poetry isn't for me. And I
mean that in the sense of, bythe time I've written the piece
I've written I've, the feelingsthat I'm writing from other
place I'm maybe writing from hasbeen felt and dealt and

(15:48):
processed. And that is very muchthe conclusion of whatever
situation I was in, or whateverfeelings I felt that I've put
into this voice in my work. AndI wholeheartedly believe that my
craft at its core is to helppeople understand the
therapeutic nature of selfexpression, which is why I'm so

(16:09):
passionate when it comes to theteaching element of my role,
because I feel like at its corepoetry, has the ability to give
people words for things thatthey don't, every day, it gives
people the ability to look atthings outside of themselves.
And for me, personally, I,whenever I'm writing, I always

(16:30):
hope that this piece finds theperson is who was supposed to
find it. So it's less aboutmyself, it's less about kind of
where I want to be seen, Ialways want to be incredibly
good at what I do. But by thetime I'm writing my pieces, it
really is for the wider worldand for my audiences, and I hope

(16:51):
that someone can read it andfeel heard or feel listened to,
and understand that this isaccessible, and they can do
exactly what I'm doing. If theyso choose, and understand that
it's important that they're ableto express themselves in a way
that feels authentic, and honestand unapologetic more than

(17:11):
anything.
Yeah. And would you say yourtheatre background feeds into
that, too? You know, that, thatidea of working directly with an
audience, you know, that, does that really help
foreground the importance ofof your audience?
Yeah, massively. I feel like somuch of performance is for them.

(17:35):
The reason that you're on thisstage, the reason that you're
delivering what you are, whetherit's for 20 minutes, 40 minutes,
or two and a half hours, it'sfor them. They've come for an
experience. And I know thatmyself, even when I was young, I
grew up in a family ofcreatives, my parents have
worked as actors, all of theirlives. So I'm very fortunate in

(17:55):
that sense. So seeing theatre as a young person, I remember
seeing shows and thinking, I'mgoing to be different after
this, I'm gonna be a teenagerand thinking I was a different
person before I saw this. Andafter I saw this, and I can only
endeavor to give my audiencethat feeling. Even if it's a
small amount, even if it's oneperson, even if it's two people

(18:17):
in the audience, I think it'sreally important to understand
that the sacredness of a groupof people coming to watch you
your work and watch your craftlive. And I think it's really
important that that transactionis whole, and that you give
back. And I hope to do that inthe content of my work and not
just the performance element.

(18:39):
Yeah, just to add on, I thinkone thing that's really come to
my attention in the last fewyears, is that as an artist there's
a responsibility I have to theaudience, and that starts from
when I put the pen to paper,there is providing the service

(19:01):
at the end of the day, whetherit's entertaining them or giving
them something to think about.And how I do that is is a
responsibility that I have tocarry. And it goes so of course
back to the idea of pledgingloyalty to their craft and
realizing that I do have aresponsibility and something

(19:21):
that I have to do with thiscraft.
Yeah, that's really interesting,because how does that feel for
both of you in terms of holdinga responsibility for your
listener, your reader or yourlistener? Because you know,
neither of you shy away fromdifficult topics, of course, you

(19:46):
know, you've both written aboutpoverty and climate change,
struggles around identity,gruesome, brutal colonial
histories, you know, neither ofyou are shying away from
difficult subjects, which ofcourse, is really important. So
how do you, how do you considerthat in terms of responsibility?

(20:12):
For me, I think it's quitesimple as in the difficulties of
life, don't shy away from us. Sowe can't then shy away from
those responsibilities. I can'tsay, oh, I can't, I can't write
about this certain topic that Isee happening, just because it's
difficult, because whether it'sme or other people going through

(20:36):
it, they're not finding it easyeither. So the difficulty, I
think, becomes redundant in thatpoint. Again, it's your
responsibility, just like, justlike, we have a responsibility
to keep ourselves alive. It's,it's not an easy task every day.
So you can't expect to be easy.

(20:57):
I definitely agree with, offthe back of that point about
that sense of responsibility. Ithink that the fact that we're
given a platform to speak abouttopics that are so serious have
to be, cannot be taken lightly.And I think it's your job like
Saf said, to induce thought, or induce thought change. And

(21:22):
I think part of thatresponsibility is allowing an
idea to sit in a room andendeavor to not be too self
indulgent as to cover it in youropinion, or your misgivings or
your own biases and hold up apoint, keep elements of yourself

(21:44):
in it, but also give enough foran audience to breadcrumb and
come to their own conclusions.And I think when you do talk
about economic issues, if it ispoverty, if it is colonial
history and things like that,it's understanding that that has
a responsibility. And that comeswith things like misinformation
and prejudice and biases thatalready exist. And it's

(22:06):
important to make sure thatthose topics are done in a
specific way that doesn't causefurther confusion or, or put
people backwards in a sense. Soyeah, I think it's important to
tackle those things. And as I'vesaid, that starts from when you
put pen to page to kind of makesure that you're hitting those

(22:27):
points that you you feel likeyou need to as a as a poet.
Yeah. So if either of you had tochoose your number one
responsibility is that reallythe realm of honesty and
authenticity?
Authenticity. Authenticity is completely

(22:47):
unique so when I say I make promises to myself as in, I
think, growing into it, andhaving it be your job, and
working with the idea ofcommissions, I think the biggest
thing that I've learned is beingauthentic to myself, I'm making
sure that the work that I'mmaking is coming from myself,
and it still has me in it.Because it would be disingenuous

(23:10):
to write or perform or producesomething that I feel like,
didn't align with myself or thethings that I believed in. And I
feel like as long as you'regiving your most authentic self
as humbly as you can, then Ifeel like it's a job well done.
Yeah, yeah, I think authenticityand honesty come first, because

(23:33):
when you're creating something,there is, the most basic
foundations of that creation youhave is yourself. So you have to
inject that in there for that tobe a true creation that came
from you. And without beinghonest and authentic to
yourself. Like then you said,it's because other people can

(23:56):
never fully know how much, howauthentic you are to your work.
Only you truly know that. Andonce you're, if you're authentic
to yourself, then you can trustyour own art, I think, yeah.
Yes, then also, certainly havingread some of your work, I really

(24:17):
like how you pose importantquestions, but without preaching
in any way. So when I waslooking at examples around how
you'd responded, both of you hadresponded to poverty for
example, a line I noted fromBilly was "poverty cares less for

(24:43):
its choice of partners", and alsomade the point of saying "it's
curable, yet impossible tosolve", which I thought really
elevates an important questionand Saf, aline I took from your
work was "distance yourselffrom the monetary cycle of false

(25:03):
hope, because today the onlytrue constant is uncited
Wilderness." And I'm justhighlighting those examples of
lines, because it really feltyou were both posing really
significant points to question,you know, how come poverty can

(25:26):
be solved, but it isn't beingsolved? What do you mean by the
the false monetarycycle, which I think describes
the money trap perfectly. Iwondered whether you'd like to,
both using those examples of howyou've responded to poverty, how
you'd like to talk about, how youwanted to convey such serious

(25:50):
issues to your audiences?
For me, I remember writing thatpoem, and it was a very personal
one, I think the topic was quiteclose to home, I've been at
various stages of poverty aboveand below the bread line growing
up in a single parent household.And I remember writing it

(26:15):
feeling like even if I was givena platform to speak on it, I
myself cannot solve it, I havesuffered through it, I have
overcome it. If that is reallyovercoming to be able to have a
roof over your head, if not thebare minimum. And I think those

(26:35):
kinds of lines about howincurable yet impossible to
solve, I think, for me, I justwanted people to feel seen, and
people to feel like it's not intheir head that there is
something wrong, that the ideaof poverty is chronic, and that
it's separate from themselves andtheir failures or their
perceived failures. And that issomething that happens to them.

(27:01):
Because it's such an enormousproblem. And I think the whole
idea that your situation iscaused by yourself, or the
situation that you find yourselfin is somehow as a result of
your lacking or something thatyou haven't been able to do. And
I think for me in that poem, itwas really important for me to

(27:24):
help that audience or the peoplethat it was for, to understand
that this is separate ofyourself, and it is not a
reflection of you, or anyperceived lack of hard work, that
it is systemic, and that you area victim of something chronic,
and to kind of take a breatherfrom that internalization of

(27:48):
that it's my fault that I'm inthese circumstances when it's
absolutely not the case.
Yeah, and, and is the process ofof writing that also a way of
you understanding or arriving atyour own understanding of your
circumstances and what yourpoint of view is?

(28:10):
Yeah, I think massively. I thinkit was interesting, because,
especially as a young person inpoverty, I think you have so
many questions, and you don'treally understand how the world
works. And you compare your ownlife or your own quality of life
to those around you and you feellike it's your shortcoming or
you feel like it's somethingthat you've done. And I think it

(28:33):
was comforting to me to writethat, because I think it's
something that I would havewanted to hear. I think it's
something that people I know, myfamily would have wanted to
hear. During those times. And Ithink, with poverty comes a lot
of anger, and comes a lot offeelings of injustice that are

(28:53):
completely valid. And I think inwriting that piece, it was kind
of this rant piece, which kindof asked all the questions that
you ask yourself, when you'resat at your kitchen table, not
knowing where your next mealwill come from, for yourself and
your kids kind of thing. So Ithink the anger and the question,
question asking nature of that poem was me working through

(29:17):
those feelings as well.Definitely.
Yeah. And so Saf, similarly,you know, the example that I
shared in terms of your work,it's from, Expect the Unexpected,
where you say, "distance yourselffrom the monetary cycle of false
hope," was that also in some waysworking through injustice,

(29:44):
social injustice, feelings ofanger? How did you find the
process was equally helpful toyou personally, as well as
arriving at your creativeexpression?
Oh, I think the process ofwriting it was more so, an

(30:05):
expression of unexpected, andthe poem was supposed to sort of
give advice on the future, andhow the future might look like.
And I think the point I wasgetting with with that line is
that, the hustle mentalitythat a lot of people have grown

(30:27):
up with, have fallen into, andsort of this idea of money will
solve all my well, all myproblems, can be sort of
detrimental, because the onlythe only thing that we really do
know is that we don't knowwhat's going to happen tomorrow.
And I think growing up in sortof a poorer background, teaches

(30:50):
you that you can't guaranteeeverything. And that's, I think,
a mentality that I thinkeveryone should sort of hold and
sort of know that you've, you'vegot to make sure you're okay.
But know that everyday thingscan change at whatever moment,
and therefore, your monetarystatus or your class status

(31:12):
isn't actually something that'simportant, per se, because
behind all of that, tomorrowstill isn't expected, despite of
where you are in that hierarchy.
Yeah, yeah, it's not that moneycan control tomorrow. How would
you both responds to the idea ofthe real revolution, if you like

(31:40):
for deep, meaningful, positivechange, for equality, for social
justice, all those big things,starts with the mind and
maybe that means starting withthe word?
I'd agree because that, thatthe person or the thing we have

(32:02):
most control over is ourselves.So if you, if you can strengthen
the mind, and sort of gaincertain knowledge of yourself,
and things around you, you canstart to make a better world,
per se. And if the people aroundyou take the same initiative,
eventually, there's sort of aripple effect, at least. So I

(32:24):
believe that it will be a sortof ripple effect, and that might
be our only saving grace intomaking anything close to utopia.
I think I agree in a mix ofthat, I think when it comes to
the word and kind of beingpresented with these kinds of

(32:45):
questions, I do think it'shelpful on the individual scale,
to think about thingsdifferently and challenge the
ideas that you have. I thinkit's important to always be
trying to grow and nurtureyourself and those around you, I
think that people are inherentlygood. And sometimes I think a
prompt will, will bring out thebest in terms of growing from

(33:07):
that point. And then the biggerpicture in terms of social
injustice and poverty and thosekinds of things. I also think,
again, that's systemic andthat's political. And that's the
momentum. And I feel like, Idon't think a good attitude can
change those things. But I dothink within those systems, it's

(33:31):
important to remember eachother's humanity, and figure out
ways of nurturing each other sothat we can stay hopeful and
stay resilient and engaged,while these things are
happening. And while we try andmake a change, I do think that
we can do that for each other.And I do think word is a big

(33:52):
part of that humanity.
Yeah. And do you think that partof that resilience demands some
bravery being being brave enoughor having the courage to speak
out? Whether it's whether it'sthrough poetry or or other forms
of art? Is it about finding thecourage?

(34:16):
Massively, I think only thebravest leaders are the ones who
change the world. You there's adifference between them and us
actually do, it is only thatlevel of courage, that level of
self, selflessness. They are theones who were able to make those
decisions to change the worldand it is almost exclusively,

(34:38):
not only compassion and empathybut courage massively. And
not everyone is for lack of abetter phrase built like that.
Not everyone has that in themand I think, I think it is
definitely courage that is thecatalyst for so many changes.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree.And I think it's our

(35:01):
responsibility as artists, evenif we don't necessarily have
that courage is to try toinspire it. And to try and speak
it up.
Where does your own courage comefrom in order to do that?

(35:23):
I don't know how courageous Iam. But I can only give credit
to any kind of bravery I have tomy parents like, yeah, those,
those are the bravest peopleI've ever met in my life. So any
shred of bravery I have comesfrom my mother, Mom and Dad.
Yeah.
And is their example of braveryabout, you know, having the

(35:47):
right to have a voice, isthat what you've been able to
relate to?
That's a good question. I don'tknow. I don't, I don't know what
what I've totally tapped into. Imean, there is, there's a lot of

(36:11):
work I have to do on myself tofigure out what I really do,
what, what really inspiresme, where and where sort of,
I can draw strength from? Thoseare things I still need to
figure out for myself, I think.

(36:32):
And Billie, how would youexplain your personal courage
and, and bearing in mind that wedon't have to presume courage
means, you know, great acts ofheroism, you know, courage is
very relative, isn't it? It'sabout, you know, being prepared
to face your fears, yourvulnerabilities to stand up in

(36:53):
any way, I'm just wondering howyou think you're brave enough,
if you like to pursue yourcraft?
I think, for me, my couragecomes from being unsure for so

(37:14):
many years of my life. I have anincredibly anxious disposition.
Ironically, for the work that Ido, and I spent so many years,
unsure of myself, and what Ibelieved. I've lived in lots of
different countries withdifferent demographics, and

(37:37):
dynamics and politics and whereI fit into that, I think I
was confused for a long time.And then I think there's nothing
more freeing than findingyourself and your voice. And
then as a result of that, whatyou believe in and what you
stand for. I'm very passionateabout injustice, I'm very
passionate about my purpose. And I think my courage comes from

(38:04):
feeling that it is, it willalways be a greater cause than
myself to bring light to thosethings. And I think as you grow
up, and as you get older, youkind of accumulate lots of
little hills that you're willingto die on. And I think it's been
quite freeing to collect myhills in that sense and kind of

(38:29):
think, Okay, this is what I feelvery strongly about. This is
what I'm still nuanced about.These are my greys, these are
my black and whites. And I thinkmy courage comes from
understanding myself and who Iam what I'm willing to defend
with complete vitriol. And Ithink that's been been really
helpful for my work in the verystrict stances that I do want to

(38:52):
make in my writing and beingable to stand by them on an off
stage.
Yeah, it does seem courage isvery much about a commitment to
belief and principle, even ifyou're scared in fact, there's
an art there's an irony inthere. So as performers, I
mean, I'd be interested if ifyou both have memories of maybe

(39:16):
your first performances or yourmaybe your first most
significant performances becauseI personally would be terrified
I wouldn't be able to get on astage and do what you do. I mean
that there's an act of courageright there. So I'm just
wondering what those firstexperiences were like were they
do or die moments? Saf, you'resmiling so I think something might

(39:40):
have amused you in your memory?
Its just I'm trying to pick up atime where I wasn't completely
terrified before performing.Laughter. So

(40:00):
from, I think probably the times where I wasn't totally
scared was when I was like threeor four years old, doing
something in front of my parentsjust be like, because when I was
that age, I used to take anyopportunity possible to perform
nursery rhymes in front ofpeople. And any little family

(40:21):
occasion, like, mum let me perform or whatever. But then,
somewhere in sort of my teenageyears, there was a pressure that
came along with it. And I thinkit's just I sort of understood a
little bit more what it meant tostand in front of people. And

(40:41):
again, the responsibility youhave when you stand in front of
people and speak and I think yeah, I don't, I don't see that
ever not being terrifying.
Yeah. Just trying to think of myown, I think similarly to Saf,
I was definitely like, happy todo cartwheels and shows in the

(41:04):
front room up until a certainpoint. And then got my friends
involved, like I was that kid.I'm trying to think in terms of
poetry. I remember in theater, Ialways felt really comfortable.
I always think I got normalnerves. But I remember when I

(41:25):
started performing poetry, itfelt very different. And very,
very scary. And I think Iremember one of my first
performances listed at 16 and
I'd managed to avoid performing for a couple of
years. And it was an outdoorstage in Wythenshawe Park on

(41:49):
like a Culture Day or familyday, and I just looked out and
it was an entire field of peoplejust like sporadic and just me
and a microphone, it was themost terrifying thing I'd,
I had done up until that point.And I think it's weird because
when you take acting, youhave the barrier of like
character, and there's theformality of theater and all

(42:10):
that stuff. But the second itwas poetry and it's something
that I had written all of asudden, it was the most vulnerable,
most shaky most, Oh, my God,this is myself. And it was so so
different. And I remember Imust have blacked out and I just
remember the claps at the end,because it was truly just
completely different thananything else I was I was used

(42:31):
to. And then I remember thefeeling of pride after that. I
think is what kept bringing meback. Kind of like addictive in
a way. It's very bittersweet.But that feeling and the kind of
before, middle and after the showsthe adrenaline is, you hate it,
but you can't get enough of it.
Yeah, I'd like to second that because there's

(42:54):
something different aboutperforming poetry, as I used to,
I used to be like debate clubsand other public speaking
competitions. And that wasalways it was always sort of
easier because it was a piece oftext that I didn't write, I had
no, I had no personalattachments to any of it. But
then performing my own poetry,were my opinions and my

(43:20):
vulnerabilities are the source andthe subject. It is, it becomes
it is, there's a sort of,it's more tense. And there's,
there's a lot of, it really doesfeel like all eyes on you. And
that's, that can be a lot todeal with. I remember, my first

(43:42):
time performing poetry Imust, I think I was like 19 It
was in front of, in contact theatrefor Words First, and I just
remember seeing my book shake inmy hand. And that's pretty much

(44:03):
the memory I have of theperformance. It's just my
shaking book in my hand. Butafter after that I sort of knew
I was gonna perform for a longtime.
It's ironic that you say thatbecause it reminds me just
last year, a few of us traveleddown to the National to perform

(44:23):
at the Riverside stage as a partof Homes kind of weekend
programming. And it was such abig deal and it was brilliant.
And I was comfortable and aroundpeople that I've performed with
for ages and on that day,literally on that day my hand
was shaking. My hand with the micI remember was just shaking, and I
thought I've been doing this foryears at this point. And that's

(44:44):
what I mean about thatadrenaline cycle never really
changes.
Yeah, my left leg shakes in everyperformance.
It's interesting because it's a verynecessary fear and whilst it
feels horrendous at the timeit's obviously very healthy,
isn't it? There's a there's avery specific purpose to it. And

(45:06):
you know, you are brave becausewhilst you're opening up
conversations or dialogue,there's always room for attack,
so to speak, isn't there, critics. Critics have got the
comfy seats of course, it'seasy to be a critic, isn't it,
than be on the stage. So itis a brave act. And Billy, isn't

(45:27):
it interesting how oftenperformers will always say they
are shy, they are introvert,like you said, they may suffer
from anxiety. And yet you havethis this theater background.
And I mentioned in theintroduction, you're casting as
Walt Whitman and just to letthe listeners know, that was in

(45:50):
the play Adhesion of Love, whichwas written by the multi award
winning playwright StephenHornby. And I wondered if you'd
like to tell us about that.Because of course, the casting
was really interesting, althoughthe commentary was absolutely
about how brilliant you were inthe role. How did you

(46:10):
approach the role? And howinfluential was it in your own
work?
It was so interesting. Suchan interesting time period, I
remember when Stephen came to mewith the idea and I had him sit
me down, I was like, Okay,explain it to me. And he'd

(46:32):
written this beautiful play,which was about basically a true
story, which is the relationshipof Walt Whitman and this young
man who idolized him andeventually saves enough to visit
him in his later years. And his,from what I know Stephens vision

(46:54):
for casting a young black womanas Walt was more than anything
to kind of subvert the idea ofWalt Whitman as an icon as the
person that they are and kind ofplay with the idea that they are
larger than their earthly body.And that the work that they

(47:15):
created and their aura, and allthat they stand for was outside
of the fact that, of who we wason earth I'd say, and it was kind
of more of his aura. I remember,when we were developing that
character it was reallyimportant to him that I still
had the air and the honors andthat just, I don't know how to

(47:40):
describe it, because I feel likeWalt Whitman was all knowing, I think
is a good way to describe itjust an omnipotent force, who
understood why the wind blewthrough the leaves the way they
did and why lavenders grew onTuesdays. Just a really
brilliant energy. And I feellike that was his goal for it,

(48:01):
specifically because the playtouched on kind of the queering
relationship between these twocharacters. And they were never
inherently sexual or explicit inany way, it did kind of have
commentary on Walt Whitman, asan early gay writer, some critics
decided as such, and what thatrelationship was to other young

(48:24):
men who were also questioning inthat sense. So it was really fun
to play. And I really enjoyedtaking on Walt's persona, and
using their work to create thatpersona, once you take their
work out of their body. Whatdoes that look like? What do
they sound like? How do theymove through the world? And I

(48:46):
think his his casting choicesreally successful in that way
because people worried lessabout the fact that it was a
play about an old man, the youngman, the fact that it was a
play with queer undertones,the fact that it was a play
about Walt Whitman and focusmore on the integrity of that
relationship and therelationship that the character

(49:08):
had to Walt's work, which iswhat it was about was about
someone who just held him up tosuch a standard. And I think it
was easier for the audience toseparate Walt's work from
himself when the actor playinghim looks nothing like Walt
Whitman.
Yeah, it seems that suchunexpected casting probably

(49:28):
works brilliantly well as ametaphor, universal humanity or
in a way a kind of equalizer ina way because it was so
unexpected. Would that makes sense? Yeah,
I think exactly that, I think,the metaphor of that
relationship and again, it wasthe idea that this main
character the human man had, hadfallen in love with or had that

(49:51):
relationship with the writerswork with what they stood for,
with, how they saw the words and they saw the world and all that
was not at all the man himself.And once you understand that,
then the body or the personplaying them can be anyone,
because it was about therelationship between their work
separate of themselves. And thatreally got to shine through when

(50:15):
you didn't have the distractionof a person, it was more about
what they brought in theirenergy and what they stood for.
So the metaphor was, was reallystrong in that sense.
Yeah, and Walt Whitman was, youknow, he was respected as a, as a
humanist. He was also respectedfor his own, his own courage, you

(50:36):
know, he wasn't bound byconvention. And, of course, he's
attributed with developing freeverse and, you know, taking
someone that important in termsof their influence, would either

(50:58):
of you really relate, if youlike, to that idea of not being
bound by convention in your own work? Do you
embrace experimentation? Are youbrave enough to break with form,
for example?
Um, I'll speak for myself, I'm not really sure, I would say

(51:21):
that, I think because I don'thave an academic entrance into
poetry that it was morecreative. I think I didn't start
with those boundaries. So Iremember when first writing,
like I said, I began in prose. AndI think I managed to stray away
from that, because I've alwaysbeen open to any sort of form.

(51:44):
And again, that's stemming a lotfrom kind of a theatre
background. So I think it's beeneasier for me not to constrain
myself, because it was neverthere in the first place, if
anything, a lot of my practice is looking at more traditional
forms and if that's stillrelevant to the work that I'm
writing at the moment.

(52:06):
For me, I'd say, coming, comingfrom a world of hip hop, every
time I write something, I wantit to be new. And I want it to
be unique, and therefore,sticking to a form that's
already been there isn't, isn'tsort of challenging enough to

(52:30):
what I want to achieve as awriter. So if anything its sort
of trying to create a new form,every time I wrestle with the
idea of creating work.
Yeah. And so this actuallybrings me to your collaboration
with the Denmark project, CitiesUntold because I wondered, you

(52:54):
know, what kind of creativechallenges you know, that that
might might be raising? Perhapsyou for the listeners point of
view, you could explain what theCities Untold project is, where
abouts you are in that in thatcommission, and what what we
might be able to hear from itthis year in 2023.

(53:18):
Yeah, I can try and give a bitof context to the project. It's
a joint project with ManchesterLiterature Festival, and Young
Identity and then alsowith some Danish literature
festivals, in two cities, Aarhusand Aalborg and they've

(53:41):
comissioned myself and four otherDanish writers to be a part of
this project. And the goal wasthat we travel there and explore
those two cities in Denmarkand they come here and explore
Manchester and kind of producework from that and kind of have

(54:02):
it be a really organic process andsee what comes from from those
exchanges.
Yeah, and so I understand thatpart of that process is various
tours around the cities and Iread the one of your visits in
Denmark included a tour aboutthe poet Morton Nielson, is that

(54:23):
is that right? You were both onthat tour and that was really
interesting because, sadly, hedied very young didn't at 22. He
was active in the resistanceagainst the German occupation in
World War Two, but he alsonevertheless become a symbol for
freedom in Denmark, and I wasinterested in maybe what impact

(54:50):
even that tour alone had on bothof you in terms of symbolism and
also Saf, I knowthat Morten Nielsen wrote a poem
about destiny and destiny issomething you talk about in your
work.

(55:11):
Yeah, specific, actually, it'sfunny, you mentioned the idea of
destiny, because that tour andsort of understanding that he,
if he seemed to have felt thathe had a purpose, and he had to
write, and then within thatshort life, lifespan that he

(55:34):
had, it seems like, it seemslike it really was his destiny
to put those words together,like something compelled him
beyond himself to put thosewords together. And that's kind
of how I feel about my work. Ifeel like that might be
something external to me,pushing me towards, toward

(55:55):
towards putting words to paper.And I think that was something
that really caught me aboutMorten and it's really stuck
with me since then, and sort ofalmost reinvigorated, is that
the right word I'm looking for.Yeah, reinvigorated my love

(56:17):
for poetry and in a sort of newway, I mean, that whole trip
made me look at my, the way Iapproach poetry altogether,
completely differently and mademe reconsider my motivations
because the Styles were sodifferent and cultures were so

(56:41):
different, not only between theUK and Denmark, but also the two
cities, and made me also realizehow sort of unique Manchester is
within the UK. And, and how,maybe my writing is unique to

(57:01):
other things, and just made mereally reconsider my reasons for
for being a poet.
Yeah, that's really interesting.To me, it does sound hugely
impactful and would you say,Saf, that you discovered or just
reaffirmed, did you discover newreasons or did you reaffirm

(57:25):
your reasons for wanting to be apoet?
I reaffirmed for sure. But thennew reasons were added on of
which I still have still notbeen able to define. But there
is something, there is somethingI gained from that trip. And

(57:46):
it's pushed me to try andunderstand more of sort of
everything really.
Yeah. And it also sounded like,almost on a spiritual level,
perhaps when you were sayingthere's an external thing that's
pushing me, would it be in thatrealm?
100% I almost see artand poetry and hip hop as a

(58:14):
vocation. And something almostalmost like a priesthood, you're
being called by something to tryand do something greater than
yourself. And I feel I feel thatmay, possibly in that cloth.
And Billy, how did the impact ofthis trip and perhaps change

(58:37):
your your reasons for being apoet or just your experience in
general, how it's fueled whatyou do?
I think, similarly to Saf, Ithink it was really eye opening.
For me, I feel like having this space to go and just meet other

(58:59):
writers and be in that space anddiscuss the craft and your
practice. It really strippedaway all the satellites of
poetry for me and kind of a lotof the things that get caught up
in creating when it does come tomaking it a job and having the

(59:20):
looming of like, Am I goodenough? And everyone, regardless
of the work that they do, getscaught up in that rat race. And
I think that having the space togo there and like Saf said the
difference in cultures, I thinkreally reminded me as to why I
started doing this. It reallygave me a sense of purity and

(59:44):
understanding that understandingthe core reasons as to why why
we write poetry and what ourintentions are. And I feel like
it was very refreshing because Ifor me, anyway, I really fell in
love with it all over again. Ihad been through quite a
blockage being here and thengoing there, it was a it was, I

(01:00:07):
was able to zoom out and reallylook at my practice and what I'm
doing and in terms of my bestfoot forward to make sure that
when I got back, I was creatingwork that was meaningful, and
had all those core things thatwhen I started writing, I

(01:00:28):
somehow lost or was was never asprominent along the way. So, for
me, it was incredibly affirmingin that sense. And I think a lot
of that was to do with thebrilliance of the other writers
who were there. And also, for mehow they approached their
writing, and they have such areverence for the craft itself.
And it was just really beautifulto witness. And for me to come

(01:00:52):
back with even a fraction ofthat I was really grateful for.
Yeah, they really learned a lotfrom those writers.
Incredible group of group ofwriters, definitely, to live up
to them.
What would you say? Maybe wasreally core to what you learned

(01:01:15):
from them, because there's sucha fantastic appreciation isn't
there when you're working in agroup, and you may have all
completely different approachesor distinct styles? You know,
it's not remotely competitive.It's purely about exchange and
an enrichment. So what do youthink they may have learned from

(01:01:36):
you as well as what you tookfrom them?
I can't think and I mean thatin the most sincere way, I was
in awe so I can't possibly thinkof what they could have taken. Or
you're too bashful to share comments that they may have made?
I think it was nice for them tocome to Manchester and see our

(01:01:59):
city. I think it, because we wentto Denmark first. And we
obviously had all this wonderfulcontext of them and as writers as
where they grew up, and why theywrite about what they do write
about. And I think when theycame to Manchester, it was
really loved because they got tosee contextually us and they
even got to see us performbecause they came during the

(01:02:20):
Manchester Literature Festival.And I remember them being really
excitable and really happy and just really soaking up and
the culture, I think, the ideathat there's such a huge scene
for poetry and just poetry. Andthat's poetry without a music
act, poetry without a conferenceattached, to poetry without the

(01:02:43):
meat and bones, poetry is themeat and bones. And I think that
to them was really exciting tosee. And I remember them being
really enthused by that and andthat was really lovely to see
from them.
And do you think part of your,you've both spoken about an
affirmation, you know, by, bybeing in this exchange and going

(01:03:05):
to Denmark? Do you think part ofit is by being away, you almost
possessed, or saw your ownidentities and in terms of
Manchester more clearly? I mean,Manchester is a is a famous
city. It's an important city,isn't it in terms of both

(01:03:27):
cultural and, and industrialrevolutions in history? Um, you
know, so many famous artistsalone have poured out of
Manchester. And how big a partis Manchester in both of your
own identities?

(01:03:47):
Manchester is is very integralfor me. I mean, it's, it's
somewhere I moved to a veryyoung age, and for a long time,
I was in denial that I was nowliving in Manchester, and then
found in like, my most difficultformative years, I found a

(01:04:09):
really, I found almost awelcoming that I don't think I
can ever find anywhere else. Imean, Manchester, I really feel
like Manchester took me in mymost miserable moments and
really helped nurture the personI am and I'm becoming more and
more so it's Manchester'sreally, as basically a part of

(01:04:32):
who I am. I feel like I carry Icarry a bit of the city
everywhere I go. And yeah, Idon't I yeah, it's just it's
something it's it's more of, itsbecome an entity to me. And it's
become just a foundation for me.
Yeah. And Billy are youborn and bred in Manchester?

(01:04:58):
I am. I always say born notquite bred in
Manchester and then I moved tothe Caribbean and I lived there
until I was about a youngteenager and then when I came
back came straight back to Manchesterbecause it was in fact home. And I

(01:05:19):
definitely feel the same way inthe sense of, in terms of
England, I've known nothing elsebut Manchester. And that for me
from birth I was born in NorthManchester hospital to now I
still find myself here. And evenwhen I went to study I studied
in Leeds, because it was theclosest thing to Manchester I

(01:05:41):
could find in the sense of itsenergy and its nurturing and
things like that. And I thought,well, I want to go away just to
say that I've gone away, but Iwant to replicate exactly what I
have back at home and I thinkthat says a lot. And even when
other creatives especially inthe creative industry, everyone
is, When are you moving toLondon? I always found myself

(01:06:06):
staring incredulously back andsaying, Never. That's that's
never been an option. And Ithink that says a lot in terms
of what the comfort that thiscity brings me it's perfect for
me and what I want to do in thearts and the groups of people
that it has and the triumph thatit has, I genuinely can't

(01:06:29):
imagine myself being anywhereelse. So yeah, it's
definitely home.
And of course, you know, Londonisn't solely responsible for the
arts of the UK is it's a veryLondon centric emphasis
unfortunately. I've spoken toother artists, you know, who

(01:06:49):
equally have said, Well, why doI need to move to London? I'm an
artist here, wherever they are,you know, I don't need to move
to London to be an artist. AndManchester does have such a
strong identity you know,culturally, but it's also
famous, isn't it in terms of theroots of the Industrial

(01:07:10):
Revolution, it has an industrialidentity. But Saf you've
spoken very interestingly, aboutthe Industrial Revolution, and
you were referring to thescramble of Africa, that
Partition of Africa, in otherwords, and you made really
important points about that,perhaps to give the listeners

(01:07:34):
some context, you can justshare, you know, what your
emphasis is there because, ofcourse, there is a gruesome
colonial history behind thePartition of Africa but your
point was, it's also the rootsof the Industrial Revolution.

(01:07:54):
Yeah, I mean, you could just seewhere all the cotton was
coming from, and all the all ofthese things were coming from
countries that were coming fromcolonized places and from
colonized people. And it's it'sa sort of what Billy said the

(01:08:15):
grittiness of Manchester isrooted in that. And then it's
also the similarities, you seefrom the working class, working
class people of Manchester inthose times and the sort of
difficulties they were goingthrough, and the marginalization
that they felt, and how thatsort of built this great image

(01:08:40):
of Britain. And you see that, atthe root of it all is a bunch of
suffering of vulnerable people,regardless of where they're
from, because it's sort of theirown people and other people from
different places. And, and it'ssort of for me, it's almost sort
of fateful, that I would end upin Manchester. I was, I was born

(01:09:04):
in Kenya. My parents are fromSudan. And my dad was born, I
think, only two, three yearsafter the independence of Sudan.
And my grandfather foughtin the second world war under
Britain. My great grandfatherfought in the First World War
under Britain. And it's a sortof, and actually, I can't

(01:09:27):
remember the name exactly butone of the Manchester
battalions fought alongside mygranddad. Wow. So it's sort of
it's sort of thiswhole thing where it's okay, my
history is rooted somewhat tothis place, and again, to the

(01:09:49):
term to the name ofresponsibility it's sort of
I've sort of found myself in aplace where I feel like I'm
carrying, I'm carrying on acertain history, and I'm
bestowed with this greatresponsibility to hold my head
to hold that high, andsort of make people aware that

(01:10:13):
underneath all this dark historyit's still a string of humanity
that holds together.
Yeah. And does this travel, ifyou like for both of you, into
the purposes of your work atYoung Identity, because of

(01:10:34):
course, you're poets with YoungIdentity, but you also have
roles don't you as producers andfacilitators. So in terms of
everything, you were just sayingthose values, if you like, does
that travel into your own workwith with other young poets, or

(01:10:55):
people that you're involved within terms of teaching and
mentoring?
I would definitely say, in thementoring element, I think it
shows up everywhere, I think,when they ask you, your
opinions, or your ideas, or foryour edits, all of that is
coming from a set of your ownexperiences, a set of your own

(01:11:16):
wealth of knowledge. And as anextension, what you're passing
on to them is how you learnedbest, or what you found your
best piece of advice that wasgiven to you when you were
younger. And, again, harpingback to this responsibility
element, I do feel like havingthe role of a mentor, especially

(01:11:38):
in something as creative aspoetry, which involves self, and
is so close to young writers, Ithink it's something that I'm
really proud of. And it'ssomething that I make sure to
input my identities andexperiences into that when

(01:11:58):
approaching them because I thinkas a writer, the more taps of
knowledge that you have, thebetter is for you. And that's
not necessarily means to be anecho chamber. I mean, the more
people that you can tap into, ingeneral, whether it's ideas,
whether it's kind of thestarting point of conversation,

(01:12:25):
I think it's so important. Andif I can be an element of that,
then I'm more than happy to be.And I think that, like, again,
my experiences, my identity isnot necessarily just racial
identities, whether thattranscends to, you know, where I
stand economically, whether it'smarginalized, whether it's
wearing, like, any identitiesthat they may relate to, it's

(01:12:47):
important that they see a mentorthat comes to them on a human
level and know that and knowsthat they're getting the best of
themselves, or the best of thatperson when they're asking a
question and when they're tryingto improve the craft.
And is that how it feels to youtoo Saf? Is it almost like,

(01:13:09):
is it almost like a family?
Yeah, Young Identity isdefinitely like a family. I feel
like we're always we're alwaysexchanging knowledge and
ideas. And it's up to me, atleast, when it comes to the
mentoring, I feel like my jobis to teach them that there is a

(01:13:33):
positive in this world ofwriting and in the wider world,
and to show them that despiteall the things you might see
around him, despite all thesedifficulties, you may see, there
is an outlet here that is justthat is beyond making a career
and is beyond just a piece offlashy entertainment.

(01:13:57):
Yeah, well as I have to getcloser and closer to drawing
this to a close, unfortunately,because I have I have stolen you a
bit longer than the the hour,I'll admit it now, the
series poses the question Can art save us? it's a deliberately bold
question to which there's not asimple yes or no answer. But in

(01:14:20):
terms of everything you weresaying, and particularly in
terms of the work you do atYoung Identity, maybe there is a
role in terms of saving or interms of encouraging and
influencing, but what what areyour thoughts on that idea, that
question, Can art save us?

(01:14:42):
I think it's a very romanticidea and I am a romantic so I
love it. And I think the microversion of that is art in itself
is humanity. I think it has anability to connect to humanity
and it has done for 1000s ofyears. This idea and what we're

(01:15:07):
doing and the idea of poetry andart is, is as old as people. And
I think my role in that is evenif I can change one person's
mind, even if I can take onecynic to an optimist, then my my
job is done and I say that as astubborn cynic. But that's,

(01:15:32):
that's the point of it. And Ithink the art gives us an
ability to have empathy for oneanother, I think it's the most
powerful thing for combatingothering, which is the most
divisive thing and has so manyramifications outside of itself.

(01:15:52):
And I think that art is thebiggest glue for it. And in
every little way, it should becherished and not only
cherished, but nurtured. Becausethere's never enough art in my
humble opinion.
I agree. I mean, I thinkexistence in itself is a work of

(01:16:16):
art. If you look at humanity andnature as a whole, I don't think
there's any better way ofdescribing it than a work of
art. And if we are works of art,then it's only poetic justice
that is art that saves us, youknow? And yeah, I think if we

(01:16:38):
lose hope and art there is no hope,whatsoever in anything else. Well,
what's left, if we don't havehope in art what's left to
hope for?
So as we sign off then, fromthe point of view of the
listeners, is there any finalwords of wisdom or inspiration,

(01:17:02):
for someone who's curious aboutexploring poetry for themselves,
for example, maybe there's linesof a poem that you would share
as influence or just your ownyour own thoughts.
I think mine's only short sothe only thing I will say is, if
you're someone who's consideringit is one that there is space for

(01:17:23):
you and two be good and do good.It's important, and the things
that you have to say areimportant. And I think I can't
say that there's a space for youwithout them clarifying that it
is important to do your best anddo your best and make sure that

(01:17:44):
what you are using your platformfor is the utmost good. And even
if it's something you can't doyourself that you are always
endeavoring others to do it.
I think, yeah, the best way forme to use a line of poetry.

(01:18:07):
Darkness is the constant, and wecan make it through the light. I
think that's the best way I cansummarize.
Yeah, that's, that'sbeautifu and you're both kind
of, you know, living testimonies to what you're
saying, as well. So a very bigthank you, of course for making
the time to join me, in thenicest possible way, I hope your

(01:18:33):
hands continue to shake when youhold your books and microphones,
before you go on stage. I hopeyour left leg shakes furiously
Saf because there's obviously somekind of spiritual energy in that
somewhere. So thank you verymuch for joining me today.

(01:18:53):
Thank you for having us.
Actually, one more thing, whenwe're talking about the album, I
forgot to mention Feaze, whoproduced the whole album, every
single track on it he produced,mixed and mastered the whole
thing. So

(01:19:13):
yeah. And I'll highlight now tothe listeners that I will
include links to the work thatBilly and Saf do on their
episode page. So go and exerciseyour curiosity. Thank you again.
Thank you.